OK, I'd like to call to order the October 21st meeting of the Economic Development Commission. We're
in the McCloskey Conference Room. It's approximately 4, 07, 4, 08 p.m. And I think the first thing we'll
do is a roll call, so. This? Yes, final. OK, number? Tim? Tim Hakey, member? And Kurt Zorn, member?
So we have a quorum.
And Jane Cooper Smith staff. Great. And Dee, you're on also your staff, correct? Dee? She's frozen.
OK. Well. Dee De La Rosa staff. Dee De La Rosa staff is available too. And we see Mr. Green, Casey,
Ms. Green.
Okay, thank you, and sorry. All right. We have approval of the minutes to do. We have minutes that were
corrected for May 20th, 2025. Anybody have any comments?
I don't think I was here in May, but I'll be happy to make a motion for the other one. Yeah, I was here
by Zoom. I will move approval. OK. And since there are only three of us, I will second it. And we will
ask for a vote. All in favor, say aye. Opposed?
And if this is the main one, I don't think I was serving on this one in May. I think you can still vote.
Oh, I can? Yes. OK. I found that out a while back. Oh, OK. Even though you're not there, you can vote.
OK, then I'll vote, yes, if I can vote. Yeah, that'd be helpful. So that we can be done. That's right.
So we can get those off there. Right. And then we have the, and Jane, correct me if I have missed something
right here, the Tuesday, August 26 minutes for
Consideration approval. Yeah. Well, I'll make the motion. If I can go ahead and certainly make a motion.
You certainly don't. Yeah. Tim, you want to second that? Yes, I second the approval of the August meeting.
And of course, any comments? If not, then all in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed?
and the abstentions, and it passes unanimously. So moving back to the agenda, we are in an area today
we've got some things to discuss in general, and we thought it would be a good idea to get some background
on these issues as they're coming up in the future for possible action. So I'm going to turn it over to Jane.
Yeah. So we place two items on the agenda for general discussion. One is more developed than the other.
So I'll share just a little summary here. I have a slide deck I can share, actually, wherever I put
it. Where did I put the slide deck? So I think if I duck over,
Sorry, everyone. Okay, D, does that show as this slide deck? Hopefully it does. So like I said, we placed
two items on the agenda for general discussion. There are not necessarily actions for the EDC to take,
but these fall in line with our, or could fall in line with our economic development framework, which
we spent some time discussing, I think in our August meeting,
that included this item of kind of activating and advancing different nodes of commercial activity,
kind of thinking of Bloomington as a city that contains multitudes instead of just one downtown district,
but that we offer a lot of different areas of our town with different experiences for visitors and residents.
Along those lines,
We kind of identified this area surrounding Miller Showers Park or rather businesses identified this
area and requested that it be named the stadium district. They requested that of council member Stossberg
and Rosenbarger and then the Chamber of Commerce brought it to ESD. We talked about it for a long time
and then we proposed legislation to council on 1022 and it was
Fairly well received, but it was tomorrow, right? Oh, I meant to say 922. OK, sorry. It was well received
in theory, but residents, especially of Maple Heights, had very consistent feedback that they didn't
want their neighborhood in there and they didn't feel like it was appropriate. And so for an R4 neighborhood
to be in the district, and so we
The legislation was tabled. We brought the feedback to our GIS team. And the map that you're looking
at now is the map that incorporates their feedback and council feedback. So the R4, which is the residential
zoning district, is removed. It's all commercial with the exception of the Garden Hill
neighborhood, which is the student development district. And so that zoning district has a different
identity than they are for. And we felt like that was really appropriate to include. So I think this
conversation is just to let you know that this is a discussion that's happening and that we're thinking
critically about how to just advance the identity of this neighborhood in a more deliberate way. We've
seen a lot of development around Miller showers.
in 2019 with the UDO updates or 2020 that really targeted the area east of Miller showers for student
residential and then that's really driven a lot of activity to that area. So we remain excited about
the opportunity to bring in this district and think this is pretty straightforward. It's a name. There
are concerns about whether the name will
drive so much activity that our infrastructure won't accommodate it. But I don't think we're there yet.
I think this is a seed being planted. Yeah. When you say infrastructure, what kind of infrastructure
do you mean? Pedestrian infrastructure, primarily. And there is a need for that. I drive through there
on my way home every day.
there there are a lot more people using the district than there were sidewalks could be improved yeah
and they and they will be the college walnut corridor study kind of cooled off for a while and is picking
back up again and will include this area as well it runs how far north that's how far is that you know
I don't know if it goes north of the bypass or not but it does
This map that goes it incorporates so this outline it's hard to read see on screen here, but this is
This scoops visit Bloomington Yeah, and like this is the Kroger Kinzer so if they wanted to label themselves
the same district Kroger they could do that and
And the Harley-Davidson's pick up there too. Holiday and all that. And the major intersection is 17th
Street, right? Or no, that's a bypass. This is the bypass. And then 17th Street's at the bottom of the
park. And this is a little bit of a commercial. Over here it goes over to, it includes smoking jacks
and some of the other areas. So how does Maple Heights compare to Garden Hill? So Maple Heights is zoned R4.
and Garden Hill is student. I just want to look up the official title. Give me a second. Apartment complexes
up in there, right? Yeah, and there are some rental homes. Okay, so I can give you the descriptions
if this loads.
mixed-use student housing. The mixed-use student housing district is intended to accommodate an adequate
supply and mix of housing opportunities for students in areas adjacent or within easy walking distance
to campus, along nearby commercial corridors with easy access to campus, to campus serving public transit
and to university-provided parking, such as the area located directly west, southwest, and northwest
of Memorial Stadium.
This district is intended to have a high percentage of student-oriented housing units, including larger
developments that might not be permitted in other districts, but not totally exclusive of other types
of residential housing units. So part of Garden Hill does contain single-family and owner-occupied,
they're in the area, the houses that are south of 17th, east of college, or east of Walnut.
But north of 17th, there's quite a few apartments up in there, right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And
then if you want the same R4 is residential. Oh no, that's R3. I apologize. I think I was saying the
wrong thing. Maple Heights is R3, which is residential small lot. The R3 district is intended to protect
and enhance established residential neighborhoods.
by increasing the viability of owner occupied and affordable dwelling units through small lot subdivisions,
accessory dwelling units, and property improvements compatible with surrounding development patterns.
The conversion of existing housing stock to more intense land use is discouraged. This district may
be used as a transition between median lot residential development and neighborhood scale residential.
And a lot of the feedback was,
that we would inadvertently be supporting short-term rentals by including Maple Heights with the stadium
district. And I think that's a very reasonable concern in supporting short-term rentals as in direct
opposition to all of our housing goals at the city. So I think it was a pretty clear case to pull that out.
So anyway. So how much was carved out after the resident feedback then, you know? It was really kind
of this area. And then we had included parts of Cascades. And so we just are following the zoning districts
with the exception of this, including the mixed use student.
Good. If there aren't questions on that, maybe I'll move on to the other topic, which is a little. So
what do we need to do with that? It's just an FYI. You may want the commission to, if they're so inclined
to support. You could make a resolution in support of it.
I mean, that would be awesome if that's what the commissioners decided to do. The council is hearing
it again, I think, the first week of November. And I kind of deliberately wasn't making an ask of you
all today when the legislation was received with more controversy than what I anticipated. I thought,
OK, this is just an opportunity to air it out and communicate a little more about what's going on.
And then could we still do a resolution after the next council meeting, or would it have to be done
before the council meeting? I don't know that it would be super purposeful after the council meeting,
after the legislation's already approved, but. Would they find that useful, you think, the council?
ESOC's not here to ask, but I think they do, I think it helps them to have input. So, Linsgreen, did
you say you live in the Maple Heights neighborhood?
Here, let me unmute you. I did. I'm sorry. I wasn't prepared for camera. Don't worry about it. Don't
worry about it. I'm a bit of a hot mess. Yes, I'm in the Maple Heights neighborhood. So can you, I know
you're not necessarily the representative of the neighborhood, but as a resident, can you comment on
the newly drawn
The objections, I guess what I'm trying to get at, there were some objections from your neighborhood
about being included, and now it looks like you're excluded, so do you get a sense that that answers
the objections that were raised? You know, we have a neighborhood association meeting later on this
evening, so I don't know whether it speaks to other
it doesn't necessarily speak to all of mine and it does appear, I would have to recheck our map, that
some of Maple Heights is still in there. I was mostly sitting in today to get more information because
we didn't really find out about the proposal until right before the vote. So I don't want to be hasty.
My interpretation of the feedback given at the council meeting wasn't so much that it had to do with
zoning and being arbitrary specifically, but kind of the pressure that we're already feeling regarding
the stadium. I don't want to say branding because no one's been officially doing it, but what we've
been experiencing over the past two years from developers specifically
Seeking tailgate or stadium type business and tenants has been really rough. And so the concern is even
if the line is one block over, we're still going to be impacted by all of that. The traffic, the vandalism,
the noise complaints. And when I spoke to, very briefly,
from council members, the feedback that I received was that we just needed to complain louder and more
consistently to the police and to HAND in order to get that in control. And I'm kind of averse to any
branding that puts us in an adversarial posture with our neighbors, you know? I don't know if that answered
your question. I think I'm still just taking a lot of this in.
That helps. Thank you. I will add I did send the updated draft. It has a draft written on it map to
Tracy B who's the president of the Maple Heights Neighborhood Association and I had offered to come
meet but wasn't aware that you had a meeting tonight. So and I have a conflict this evening, which is
too bad because it was
clear that conversation was needed. And also, I'm a former resident of Maple Heights. I wanted to just
say that. I love that neighborhood. Yeah. And we definitely do want to support development. I do want
to emphasize that, that the complaint isn't a wholesale. We just don't want it. But we do have a visitor
tonight anyway, so she might not have. That's fine. Yeah. As long as you know the offer, the offer is
important to have made.
and was made, so. Yeah, the one clarifying question I would have is, I thought the last one, they rescheduled
the vote for tomorrow, and then you're also talking about early November, but then when I'm looking
at the agenda for the Common Council, so is that just gonna be a, we're shelving it until November vote?
Yes, that's right, because we haven't had the time to interact with
you know, the Maple Heights Neighborhood Association or the Garden Hill, which isn't as active. And
so Hopi is going to be presenting a memo or she put a memo in the packet that requested to table it
until the first week of November. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate giving us the moment to
like see what this would entail and, you know, get to know more. Yeah.
To be clear, this is for the commercial. I mean, we said it in the meeting, and we had our map wrong.
But this is for the commercial districts. This is for the businesses who requested to be able to self-label
in this way. And our work, thanks, Ms. Green. Is it OK if we?
Thank you for letting us put you on the spot. Can I just say one more little thing though, just given
on where you're going, I just want to make it clear. We are not confused about the difference of this
being a commercial issue versus a residential renaming of our neighborhood. It sounded like people were
reading it that way. We do understand that these are separate, but they are closely integrated and we
are impacted by the businesses that are on.
right on the same block as what will be this district. So even as it's proposed effectively. So, I mean,
we'll still be closely, it needs to be collaborative, you know. And then, of course, I'll go on mute.
Yeah, go ahead. Let's ask a question for you. I'm a fellow member here on this commission. And so I
wanted to know,
What is it that you would suggest that would mitigate your concerns with the district? I. I hesitate
to speak on that until I kind of get more information about how this was developed. I I.
Are there concerns currently? I mean, what happens now? You mentioned something about you already have
trash, you have that kind of thing. So is that the main thing now that you're concerned about or what's
happening now? The stadium affiliation, I see where it came from. And that seems to have been a strong
discussion in history that I'd like to get more information on that before I really speak.
Um, yeah, yeah, I had herbicide sprayed on my property to increase, um, you know, the appearances when
parents are around. Um, I had my motorcycle pushed over. I have had people, trucks of young boys, um,
as I walked down the street, um, yelling and calling me a liberal bitch.
on my actual street, you know? So I was there for the past two years, the demographic shift in some
of the rentals, not all. I used to do rentals right beside me in a little house, and I never had any
problems. From there, it's exclusively the rentals that I know are kind of marked in proximity to the
stadium. So I don't know what happens now. We're just also dealing with
Behind my house, a dead end was recently opened up. No one was warned. Trees were cut down. We weren't
getting any feedback. And now people speed where kids are playing on the road. And we're nowhere near
the top of the priority for that. So I think that is, we're already impacted by this closer association
with the stadium that we had in the previous years.
Yeah, I don't know how we resolve this, if it's dead set on it being a stadium district, but I'm just
hoping to gather information so I can maybe think about that. And will, I don't know, but then will
there be public comment for her and others to speak at the next meeting then? At the council meeting,
yeah. Yes. Oh, yes. So you would have a chance to come to the council meeting in a little while,
a few weeks, right? To speak about it again publicly, which maybe you probably can develop and
talk to others there and figure out what it is that you really might think about could work, right?
Right, yeah. We just, as a neighborhood, need to get caught up on this proposal that's been, like, in
the works for a really long time, you know? So, could I ask you to do something tonight at your meeting?
Could you encourage your neighborhood association to take
the Economic Development Commission director up on her offer to come meet with you and possibly have
a special meeting before the council meeting so people can become better educated about what the intent
is of the district and so forth. So they can make more informed comments at the council meeting in November.
I think that would be ideal if you could
possibly advocate for that. I'd also offer, I can probably bring our engineering director with me who
would be able to speak about things like the dead end opening up and maybe more important than what
has happened is what is in the future, like what's in the transportation plan that might impact you
all. Offer stands.
Just an idea, if you're so inclined to advocate for that. Do they know how to reach out? Oh, yeah. I
have a feeling we'd all love that. You know how to reach? I'm in touch with their director
of the Neighborhood Association so she can reach out. And then also, I think Kate Rosenberger is your
council rep, and she also has all my contact info. So yeah, great.
Thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Thanks for the time. Your input's been very helpful.
Thank you. Thank you. So given those comments, I personally think that it doesn't make sense for us
to put forth a resolution until we get more information. I'm not sure I'd be in support. OK.
I recognize the value of having neighborhoods named and creating small census of community, et cetera.
But this one is tied to this alcohol, additional alcohol. It's not tied to it. It's not technically,
but it's the same movement. No, it's separate. Can I go into that? Sure, yeah, please. I placed them
here together. We probably leave no issue.
Like, for instance, the neighborhoods, if they could be able to count on more patrols and that kind
of thing, is that being discussed anywhere during stadium events? You know what I mean? That's a great
recommendation. I don't know what the current practice is. I assume that's already standard because
there's so many bodies up there. I think you have to get the IU University police because they do a
lot of the patrols.
in those neighborhoods around Garden Hill like that. The bigger picture to me is that in our community,
we're becoming a first-class football university, which is changing. And third-class academic, maybe,
or whatever. I mean, you know, the whole emphasis has changed. And we are going to suffer the consequences.
And in this case, in my view,
we're being led by this change as opposed to being out in front and promoting what we think should happen.
It's very difficult. I don't know what our council and especially mayors should do, but this
is a consequence. So this was a business led initiative, is that right? Yes, from January, 2024. It
kept getting tabled. And so it was well before any of the current
challenges that are being experienced. But I take the point that there's a balance to be struck. Well,
now it's just more relevant, the fact that it's going to be labeled something to go along with what's
already happening. Well, I still think it's really important. Thinking about the hoteliers, for example,
and one of the
One of the best use cases that I think about is how our convention center is being developed. It's not
going to have a host hotel online, but having hotels be able to brand themselves, the stadium district,
they'll be able to know that they can have easy access to the convention center. So if it were to become
part of our lexicon, and it's just referring to this area up there rather than
I'm going to use hyperbolic language, but rather than like a Gomorrah of sorts, which is what I think
the use of the term stadium is conjuring for people. And I think mainly we just want to flag that it's
proximal to this space. It's a geographic identifier, and it has a positive association with IU Sports.
That said, the things that Ms. Greene is describing to us really are, I think, not pleasant and
perhaps a symptom of the student population that's been driven into this north side. So it's probably,
I think those experiences are a result of changes that are years in the making from our driving, yeah,
of students up that way. I don't know. I'm probably speculating too much. Well, there's a lot. I mean,
it used to be a football game when you have 20,000 people. Now it's 50,000. Over 50.
Yeah, and that's just a huge difference. Yeah. But I feel like we react to problems a lot. As opposed
to, I mean, yeah. Do you think this naming is reacting to a problem? I think I'm not concerned about
the naming. It's the liquor license thing that I think is a bigger issue. Let's talk about that. Let's
turn it up.
Alcohol, perfect. Can I give an intro? Sure, sure. So I did really deliberately want to separate this
from the stadium district because it has been, I mean, we were talking about a riverfront district.
We tried to separate them so that we could just focus on the name and not have it be tied to the alcohol.
And then during that council meeting, it became really clear that there was a lot of concern about this.
And so I think that calls for an opportunity to talk about the idea of permits that are allowable outside
of the quota system in Bloomington in different contexts, because there are a number of ways that they
could be allowed. And there are a number of ways that they're used as a tool across the state.
And so what I gathered from the comments in our city council meeting were that there were a lot of concerns
and I think we were accounting for some of them in the way that we were thinking about it, but there's
just a lot of communication that has to happen first before we go anywhere near legislation. So what
I thought today I would do is just share a little background information and just listen to
your thoughts about this as an economic development tool. Is that okay? So this is just really basic.
The ATC allows a certain number of permits in Bloomington based on the quota system. I believe it's,
I've got the number, it's per 1,500 residents-ish and Bloomington hasn't had any
added since 20, well for 10 years. Since the 20, maybe since the 2010 census because when the 2020 census
hit our numbers were down and so we were not added any. There are a number of programs that allow a
municipality to exceed that quota. I think Bloomington is eligible for two. Any programs
related to these types of permits would be authorized by council, but they would be managed by the Indiana
ATC. So it's not like all of a sudden the locals would be able to issue these permits. It's just we
would make requests to the ATC. But this is the thing, the part that I think might be more interesting.
So Riverfront districts, I just started looking for them and this is a
not a complete list, but they're all over the place. Some of them are next to ditches, and some of them
are next to actual rivers. The historic districts are a little more restrictive. I've had more trouble
finding those, because you have to have the location of a historic jail, sheriff's residence,
an opera house, and Bloomington happens to have those things. We do? Mm-hmm.
in Fountain Square Mall. There's an old opera house on the corner. So if you look on the outside of
the building, there's little rose-colored alcoves with vases sculpted in them. That was the front of
the opera house. So this is just a very short list of what I think of as the pros and cons, I guess.
And then I want to know what you think. Actually, this is out of order, though.
There are those two programs. Oh, other state programs. So then there are a ton of other state programs
that allow exceedance of the quota system. And we have some of these, right? We have a distillery. We
have breweries. So we have those permits already. We don't have a lakefront. There's specific state
code that actually just names cities and says, these cities get extra permits from their quota. So the
state just decides, we're going to give you guys this.
extra economic development incentive, because they know it's a critical driver of revenue. So the permits
allowed in this state code are long-term assets. So I think a main thing to be aware of is that the
permits that are allowable through the riverfront or the historic district, those are temporary.
one year, non-transferable. So the quota permits, the ones that are per every 1,500, are major investments
for businesses. People have paid $250,000. Someone just told me they paid $200,000 for theirs. And so
there's a strong desire on the part of the people who are footing the bill for those expensive permits.
They want to protect their investments, and they want to make sure that they're not devaluing them.
Those long-term assets can be used to leverage debt. You can bank a business loan with those. You can
transfer them. You can sell them. And people do, right? There's a whole economy of those permits in
Bloomington, although I don't think it moves very much anymore. Is that a one-time charge, the 250?
Yes, and then it's yours and you own it. So I think that a big concern is
whether adding additional permits through the temporary annual programs would devalue the long-term
assets. So that's listed as a con. But then these are just some of the other. And it goes on and on.
They add them for historic theaters, for city markets, for malls. Hotels have their own permits.
So the posture in Indiana was really restrictive for alcohol permits for a long time. And then you can
see when you read the code gradually, they just add and add and add and add. Bloomington is a really
interesting case because we have a population of, we have a larger population when the students here,
but they're not part of our permanent population. So with our quotas, we,
we likely don't actually have that one per 1,500 of our residents nine months of the year. So that has
artificially driven up the price of our quota permits, in my opinion. So who sets the price? The market.
The market. Yeah, and then I guess. Because if you own it, you can sell it. Sure. As long as it's an
arm's length transaction, it's the market that's deciding. When I say arm's length, there's no deal.
It's made and then if we were increase our quota were to increase Then the ATC would sell the first
Permit so the state code sets prices for certain certain of the permits But ATC does set the initial
price. Yeah, but the secondary market is I Think so, yeah
So just to be clear, we're talking about the city of Louisville, because the county is different. The
county is different. Yes, yes. Outside the city limits. That's what I understand, yeah. I had two county
permits, but they were applied for them, or fee, not purchased for substantial sums. And that's probably because
because of the supply and demand. Are they short term or long term? No, they're permanent. Yeah. But
so like on Sarah Road, they have the restaurant there as well. And that's how it should be. They're
not valuable, not expensive. You should be able to access them. A business owner should be able to access
them. So when I think about what I believe this could do for our economy, I see small restaurants closing
in Bloomington.
And I think about small favors or I'm going to draw blanks right now. But we have had a number of food
businesses close. Oh, Una would be another good one. They had wine only. But basically, you can control
the parameters. And so you could say, only Monroe County headquartered businesses, Monroe County-owned
businesses could be eligible for this within this footprint. Only restaurants.
Like, the council could set the limits narrow enough that we're not gonna flood the market. I think
if we were to entertain something like this, we would want to go very gingerly, be very ginger about
it. And did you indicate we would be at most limited to two? Well, there are two programs that I think
could be pursued. Oh, programs, okay. Yeah.
I'm talking a lot when I really want feedback, but it felt like I needed to share some of the upfront
information. So there are two ways that I think we could be eligible, and then the legislation could
set limits on those. Once again, these are one-year temporary. And just to be clear, too, they're liquor,
because beer and wine, they're three-way. They're three-way. Beer and wine license is relatively easy
to get. Yeah, and they can be cheaper than that, even, I think.
You can apply for them, and they're a few thousand dollars, something like that. Then process. So what
we're talking about is the liquor freeway license. I just referenced that, because the small restaurants
often can have a beer morning license. Right. Yeah, and I think the business case is just that restaurants,
the margins are so bad on food, labor costs continue going up, supply chain.
is really difficult for small businesses to manage. The way that businesses nationally are dealing with
this is through technology. A lot of local shops don't have the ability to adopt, I don't know, online
ordering technology or whatever to help minimize labor. It could be in the kitchen or it could be at
point of sale. And so it's like, well, what else could we do to help
local food establishments really generate more revenue. And the other challenge, so we talked about
the population challenge with our quotas. We are a population that's larger than our census count. We're
serving a population larger than our census count. And then also we're really a nine month economy.
So our businesses and our small food businesses are especially challenged when, yeah, over December
and then July and August.
Do you think that will continue to play out as the Convention Center expands? I'm optimistic that that
will buffer, especially in the summertime. And frankly, IU is working on some kind of, it's not just
IU, it's a partnership, but on some summer programming that we hope will really kind of magnetize Bloomington
at different times. So, yeah.
I think it could make a difference for sure. The convention center, the expansion for the year round.
I mean, they'll be able to attract much larger conventions now with the expansion. Yeah. What other
questions? What are the areas, what do you see as risk areas or areas that you want? Do you think we
should investigate more or? You mean locations?
What are your initial thoughts about the idea of trying to access some of these programs that the state
makes available? What are the things you think we should be considering? What do you think we should
be talking to? Can the council delegate some of that oversight of the licenses to a body? Because I
would hate to see the council. Yes.
I mean, Jane, to be honest, I think we're talking about something we... I think we're heading left when
we should be heading right or the opposite. I mean, if you look at the goals, grow the workforce population,
grow wages, reinforce economic base, this is... I don't think it's on target. I mean...
I think I can see where it would be. For the workforce population? Sure, if you help smaller restaurants
stay viable. In a really small way. A small restaurant can have a two-way license. I mean, the businesses
we've talked to and so many people have identified affordable. And I have four kids who left the community, okay?
So that's part of the growing the work. I wish the four kids and their spouses would be back here as
part of the workforce population. So that's my personal vendetta right now. And it's all housing
affordability and job opportunities. I don't disagree with you, but I believe in doing things on the
margin. I think this could have a real effect on the margin. I'm not against this. I wish we were focused
on making housing
homes, viable homes, whether they're condominiums or some other fashion. I wish we were focused on that.
I don't think they're mutually exclusive. That's what I'm arguing. Well, except for our time and energy
and the staff's time and energy. That's where I am. How much time does this take? I think it would take
a significant amount of community outreach if we were to pursue this. But I'll also say, I think this
lands very squarely under supporting small business development. And that does factor into the workforce
attraction piece. Part of what has made Bloomington a really great place over the years is our independent
culture, our point businesses, our exceptional food culture. And we know that if we're to attract workforce
population, you have to have amenities. And frankly, Bloomington is not competing. It's Carmel,
it's Fishers. That's where young people are going. And it's because there's
we're not offering the right things for people in their 20s to want to stick around here. And I think
being able to diversify this and also buttress these small businesses at the same time really helps
do that. To your other point, there are some things I can't talk about yet, but we're working so hard.
We're working mostly on housing, affordability, and incentives. That's what most of the
most of my time is spent on. So this is definitely, I don't know what the right metaphor is, but this
is definitely a side note to that, a grace note to that, but I think super important. Well, I'm not
against it, but I am a little concerned about the whole impact of the culture of the university changing.
being a football university and the seven or eight home games per year, that's a pretty long day. And
so when it's packaged in with the stadium district, that's where, to me, it's pointed in the wrong direction.
Obviously, four streets of treasure and all kinds of little restaurants, I go all the time and love
them and do want to support them.
If we get a couple extra liquor licenses, that would help a couple of restaurants. I'm not opposed to
that, but that's likely to be... How would those restaurants surface to be able to get another liquor
license or to get a liquor license? Well, we would have to just communicate publicly about it, right?
And then is it first come first serve or there's criteria or both? Criteria. I think they're...
there would have to be criteria. I think that we would want to craft that really deliberately so that
if we wind up with more applicants than licenses, we really know how to choose, how to make the selection.
So I think there would definitely be challenges to implementing the program, but I don't think it would
be insurmountable. I think this feedback's really helpful, and I think that's why I really try to
Slow down once I got a sense of where the public discourse was at the council meeting where it was brought
up. I just remember hearing that an historic district permit was discussed maybe 15 years ago and all
the businesses were traumatized from it and nobody wanted to touch it again. But I think if we go slow
and engage everyone, I'd like to really see if we can find a way.
Yeah, I just wanted to say something to Tim's point. By creating these liquor licenses as well and giving
them to small businesses, it's helping the service economy that's already here. I hear a lot from service
workers. There are limited places to work. They're not making a whole lot of money in tips and the lack
of variety that Jane was talking about and that lack of
and usage by young people is really affecting the server economy and the service economy that we have
currently. So this would bolster and assist the workforce that we already have. So I think that that's
something to also take into consideration that it's helping the people that already live here and will
live here and continue to live here.
I have a question, Jane. How much do you interact with other city departments, including utilities?
Oh, all the time? Because it just occurs to me, I have been around a lot of small businesses and little
restaurants, and the whole grease trap thing, that closed restaurants. Yes, and I don't know what you
put in on there, but now they allow, it used to be, no matter what the size of your business was, you
were putting a $30,000 tank in the ground. Whether you were even building a restaurant.
If you're building a restaurant space, they wanted you to put in a $15,000 grease drive. Do you think
that's been successfully, do you think it's successfully evolved, or do you think the challenge has
remained? I don't know much about it. Yeah. My understanding is that they allow different technologies,
so like green turtle, which uses, I can't think of what the name is, but it's like a type of a fiber,
fibery plastic, and those can run closer to 12, 14 instead of,
30,000, but you have to have the ability to put it in your space. So my perception is that it's evolved
in a better way. I think they do let buildings go up without the interceptors, but I don't know if that's
an exception or a rule. Just in my experience with small business, it's that kind of thing. So even
though you might be pushing to help small restaurants,
There might be two thirds of the city administration, you know, whether they're taking the parking away
or they're requiring grease traps or whatever, they're feeling like they're strangled. So I'm just saying.
Look at the big stuff too. Yeah. Try to coordinate, coerce colleagues in other areas. You know, fire
department, that's another one. I mean, really restrictive, really challenging.
So anyway, I do think you could have a lot of impact. People may not know about it, but you could have
a lot of impact. Yeah, that's good feedback. Well, did we talk it out? I think so. More to come, perhaps,
or I don't know. Well, what are the next steps, right?
I don't know. I think that it's coming up at some of our business group meetings. So I think we'll just
make sure the conversation surface there and we'll continue talking with council members. There's no
council members sponsoring three-way permit legislation at this time. So I think it's early days.
for this, which is completely fine. I don't know if I answered your question. Is there an ultimate goal?
My ultimate goal is? One of my goals is not to torture myself with legislation that's not going to go
anywhere. Very good. Things like a good plan. Yeah. So I think I just want to explore more and see if-
Before it becomes a possibility. Yeah, see if we want to do this as a community. Right. And if we don't, then.
Is there a restaurant association here anymore? No, and we're really missing that. Yeah, Bira. They
were important. They were very important. But we do have a lot of leadership in that community. It's
just not a formal network, which then runs the risk of people not being included, businesses not being included.
Of course, the beer has stood for independent restaurants, so I mean, there's a clear distinction between
a chain and an independent. Yeah. I mean, that's just by nature of the name. Yeah. So the chains wouldn't
be included, so they're a different operation. I laugh because at one point, Hopscotch was, under some
local rule, considered a chain because we had more than one location. Yeah. So, you know. Oh yeah, they
were a chain, too. Yeah. Anyway. Right.
All right, no more discussion on the three-way licenses? No, just I want to say thanks for exploring
that with me and thanks for asking questions and kind of extracting some information. Thanks for allowing
my crabby. No, it's useful. I'm going to come show me some crabby, but. Do we have any old business
to consider? I don't think so. Anything else? Not for me. Tim, Luz, Jane, Dee. Anything from anybody there?
Casey anything else you want to say before we adjourn? I'm alright thanks. Okay thank you so we are
adjourned.