- As at 630 and we have a quorum. I would like to call this regular session of the Bloomington Common
- Council the order here on Wednesday, December 3rd. Will the clerk please call the roll? Councilman Flaherty
- here Ruff here Rallo here here Stahlberg here daily here. Sorry here Great, thank you
- There's a lot of people in the room here tonight. That's exciting for one of the last meetings of the
- year. I've been starting meetings with a little kind of general note of interest, either historical
- or something related to justice and that category of thing. And for the third time, I think, this year,
- I'm going to talk about gerrymandering. The first time I talked about it, it was about the origin of
- the word gerrymandering. And then it was the different states are gerrymandering.
- Today I'm going back to it because our Indiana state legislatures legislators have reconvened in special
- session to redistrict our congressional maps and for those of you who don't know redistricting usually
- happens around the census. So once every 10 years and this mid decade redistricting is not
- Normal it is not the normal course of business and the Republican contingent the sponsor of this bill
- has been open about declaring that the maps that they are proposing are politically gerrymandered Breaking
- apart areas with high numbers of Democrats So those Democratic leaning voters are diluted with Republican
- numbers and hopes that all nine of the congressional seats will go to Republican candidates and in order
- to do that one of the things that they've done is separated the Indianapolis Airport Excuse me, Indianapolis
- area into four
- four different districts, and that results in the same person representing sections of urban Indianapolis
- as rural Jackson County or rural Rush County or rural Union County. That's interesting, I'll say, because
- I try to stay neutral during these moments.
- So both the process of calling a special session mid-century and proposing deliberately gerrymandered
- maps is meaningful for everybody, for all Hoosiers, and this will impact the representation that all
- of us have in Washington. And I would encourage everyone to contact your representatives to share your
- views on this process. And now,
- Usually I go on to the agenda summation but I also have a little note about our agenda before I go on
- because we have a few pieces of legislation tonight that are just a little bit different than normal.
- So there is legislation related to voluntary annexation on the agenda this evening with we have not
- had to deal with any voluntary annexation in the city of Bloomington for
- Number of years and so it's been a learning curve for everybody involved to figure out exactly how to
- do it And so I'm going to talk about it a little bit because there are three pieces of legislation that
- have to do with the voluntary annexation One of them is a resolution. Okay and resolutions have one
- reading So we're going to talk about that and vote on that as a council this evening and that resolution
- has to do with the fiscal plan That's like the money plan. It's like how does Bloomington plan to fund?
- This new property in terms of the services and that kind of thing that wants to be a part of the city
- the second piece of legislation that is the actual voluntary annexation itself and that has to be an
- ordinance and ordinances have two readings tonight will just be the first reading of that ordinance
- to actually Do the annexation council doesn't talk about things at first readings mostly most of the
- time at first readings there's not an opportunity for the public to comment and
- However with this particular first reading the state of Indiana for voluntary annexation Requires a
- public hearing and at public hearings the public gets to talk. So at our first reading tonight for that
- is ordinance 2025 43 that will be a public hearing So even though it is a first reading the public will
- have an opportunity to comment about the annexation ordinance itself then the third piece of legislation
- that has to do with the annexation ordinance is
- Annex the voluntary annexation is also an ordinance and it will be first on first reading tonight We
- will not have discussion on it or anything and that piece of legislation has to do with if we do annex
- the property What would this zoning be because we would have to declare as a council how that would
- look on our zoning maps And so that is up for first reading tonight. And so two weeks from tonight We
- will we will as a council discuss those two ordinances up for first reading But as I said tonight will
- be that public hearing
- So I'll summarize the agenda now So first we have the minutes for approval Then we have our time for
- reports a maximum of 20 minutes for each Part in this section. The first part is reports from council
- members The second part is reports from the mayor city clerk city offices and city boards and commissions
- and tonight we will have a report from the economic and sustainable development department with a climate
- action plan update then we'll have reports from council committees of which I do not believe we have any and
- And then we'll be our first report time to hear from the public. And so at that public comment time,
- people can talk about things that are not on our agenda. So if there's something not on the agenda at
- all that you came here that you want to share with us tonight, that would be the first opportunity to
- do so. After reports, we'll have appointments to boards and commissions, which I do not believe we have
- any this evening. And then we'll have the legislation for first readings.
- We have ordinance 2025 46 and that's the one to amend the Bloomington zoning map to zone that new property
- to a residential medium lot And then we will have ordinance 2025 47 to amend title eight entitled historic
- preservation and protection to establish a historic district regarding a property
- And then we will have the ordinance 2025 43 which is the ordinance to annex certain real estate. And
- so that is where we'll have that public hearing after that first reading.
- After that public hearing, we'll move into second readings and resolutions. We'll start with the resolution
- 2025-19, which is adopting a fiscal plan for the annexation of that property. Then we'll have appropriation
- ordinance 2025-14 to appropriate from the general fund, Parks and Recreation General Fund, Motor Vehicle
- Highway Fund, the Jack Hopkins Fund for expenditures not otherwise appropriated, just kind of an end
- of the year balancing act.
- And then we'll have ordinance 2025-44 amending title 10 of the Bloomington Municipal Code entitled
- wastewater. So that's the septic collar rate adjustment. And then we will have ordinance 2025-19 amending
- title 15 of the Bloomington Municipal Code removal and impound of vehicles regarding towing rates. And
- then we'll finish up with ordinance 2025-20 amending title, or sorry, amending chapter four, 4.32
- Updating towing for the non-consensual towing businesses. So both of those last two ordinances have
- to do with towing After the legislation will have additional public comment So that's another period
- of public comment where people can talk about things not on the agenda And you can speak at one of those
- two periods of general public comment There will be public comment periods on all of those second readings
- and resolutions any notes on council schedule and then we'll adjourn so after all that we can go back
- to the minutes and
- I move that the minutes from September 10th 2025 be adopted Thank you, are there any questions or comments
- from councilmembers about the minutes seen as we're all here in person tonight, we can Have a voice
- vote all in favor, please say aye aye any opposed Thank you. That motion passes Next we'll move into
- reports. I will start to my left tonight with councilmember daily
- Report. Thank you. Thank you councilmember. Sorry No report. Thanks. Thank you councilmember Piedmont
- Smith Councilmember Rallo Just to say for the record that I want to express my disappointment with the
- RDC the Redevelopment Commission for taking up the subject of Selling potentially selling. I'm sorry
- donating the property at the Bunger Robertson property to and
- Perfor the purpose of the hotel to entice the hotel Which has been under negotiation by the CIB. I think
- that's extremely disappointing the city needs to recoup the seven million dollars that was paid for
- that and I find this Sacrifice unacceptable at a time when we are already facing austerity when we have
- other challenges including affordable housing in the city and
- and especially because the council Anticipated that something like this might happen and took a formal
- position in 2024 against it So it was stated by the council that that was unacceptable so I hope they
- already see we will do the right thing and and not make that donation and and If it requires negotiating
- with a different hotel here, so be it. Thank you Thank You councilmember rough
- Thank you. Councilmember Flaherty no report. Thanks. Okay. Thank you. And I will skip report time tonight
- as well. Next we have report from the mayor city clerk city offices etc. with the economic and sustainable
- development department. You could state your name for the record and thank you for being here.
- Thank you. My name is Sean Mia. I'm the assistant director of sustainability for the economic and sustainable
- development department.
- And tonight I will be giving an update on how we are implementing our climate action plan since our
- last Since our last update in July of 2024, so I'll just wait for my slides Okay, this is not my presentation
- There you go. Great. Okay. Thanks. I'm just going to fly through these slides and there'll be time for
- questions after. So I'm just going to highlight some of our big programs. So in since 20, since August
- of 2024, we have completed 11 solar installations at these locations as part of our solar energy efficiency
- and lighting program. And we have approved six additional solar installations at these sites. They should
- be completed in early 2026.
- Donovan energy has been our municipal energy efficiency and decarbonization consultant since 2024 in
- 2025 they completed nine level two ashray energy audits at these nine buildings Here's a list of recommended
- energy conservations that came out of those reports The green checked marked projects are the ones that
- have been completed we will be continuing to work with departments to implement these additional projects
- in coming years and
- Part of the recommended energy conservation measures was to upgrade LED lighting at these seven buildings
- These LED lighting upgrades will be completed by the end of this year We have completed the City Hall
- LED lighting project We will be receiving $141,000 back from the Department of Energy We will also be
- getting $33,000 back and Duke energy rebates for this project and it is estimated that the city will save 67%
- annual lighting costs because of this project Giving you an update on the bus Kirk Chumley theater project
- We received a five hundred eight thousand dollar grant from the Indiana Office of Energy Development
- We are making progress with this project. We anticipate the HVAC system will be upgraded We'll be installing
- solar a battery energy storage system by the end of 2026 so we're currently in the schematic design phase and
- Another part of our solar energy efficiency and lighting program is the energy efficiency and lighting
- portion our project partner IFF completed eight energy audits at these locations and completed eight
- projects We anticipate three additional projects in 2026 early 2026 so if you're interested you can
- see that we have provided over a million dollars in grants through the seal program and ITS has helped
- to create a map to look at all those locations and
- 2025 we revised our Bloomington green home improvement program. We we approved 34 projects at Residential
- locations. Here's a list of those projects in 2025 We will continue this program in 2026 a lot of our
- residents said that they would not have completed these projects without these rebates So we're really
- proud of this program
- We're really excited to announce our Bloomington Energy Works program. We were awarded a two hundred
- fifty thousand dollar grant from the Coalition for Green Capital. This is a market building grant and
- our program partner is the Indiana Energy Independence Fund. Our goal is to provide free energy audits
- for any large commercial building owner manufacturing building building owners nonprofits academic
- institutions. Our goal is to get a list of at least
- $50 million worth of financeable projects and submit our robust clean energy public-private Partnership
- plan to the coalition for green capital by March 15th, 2026 So we have a very short time frame to develop
- that list So we have a new website that we have launched. It's called you can go to it and
- By visiting Bloomington energy works calm you can learn all about all about the program. You can apply
- for the free energy audit We're also going to have a volunteer energy community engagement program We
- have hired a nonprofit called electrify, Indiana. They are going to conduct a door-to-door campaign
- and Train volunteers to give group presentations on the benefits of energy efficiency and renewable energy
- So please everyone go to that website. We're going to have our first Webinar on December 10th at noon.
- So please register for that webinar And so for climate resilience, we are planting trees We are providing
- funding to homeowners to remove hazardous trees and limbs and we're also installing bus stop shelters
- Our stay cool Bloomington program in 2025. We provided funding to provide over fifteen thousand dollars
- 15,000 free admissions for our city pools. We distributed eight AC units window units and we also distributed
- 400 stay cool Bloomington cool kids Project 46 has made some significant progress this year in July
- the steering committee approved the bylaws and organizational structure and also approved membership
- for the advisory committee members listed here We also have a new website. You can visit it
- by going to project46regionalclimatealliance.com. We have had a lot of successful community engagement
- events this year using our Zero in Bloomington platform. And I encourage everyone to go to our climate
- action plan dashboard where you can see more details about all of the things I've talked about tonight
- and how we are continuing to make progress on implementing our climate action plan and reducing greenhouse
- gas emissions. So thank you.
- Thank you very much. Are there councilmember questions? I have questions if nobody else has questions
- and I appreciate I know that you included more slides than you talked about because of time related
- stuff. Can you talk a little bit more about Project 46 and the council role in Project 46 because I
- Yeah, because the we got rid of the climate action committee or the climate and resilience Council committee
- partly because of being involved with project 46 So if you could just talk about that for council members
- a little bit because this like previews A role that one of us needs to take next year. Sure. Thank you
- for the question the opportunity so for the organizational structure project 46 the steering committee
- is made up of mayor
- Thompson mayor for Don and Columbus and Sandy Jones who is the town manager of Nashville? So the steering
- committee votes on all of their actions There's also advisory committee members. And if you look on
- the project 46 website, you can see the organizational structure There are seats that are available
- for the advisory committee members for City Council staff from each governmental entity so we can have
- one member from the
- City Bloomington City Council, one member from Bloomington or Columbus City Council, and then the town
- council of Nashville. So advisory committee members are made up of the city councils. We also have advisory
- committee members from manufacturers and commercial entities and nonprofit organizations. And then also
- we can have city staff who are interested in
- Working towards actions for project 46. So for instance, we have Kat ziger from CBU She attends the
- meetings and is very involved And so we're trying to get those level of that level of involvement across
- the region Great, thank you. So are those meetings monthly? The steering committee meetings are quarterly,
- but the subcommittee meetings are more frequent Okay, great. Thank you
- Are there any other questions? Councilmember Piedmont-Smith. Yes, thank you for the presentation. I'm
- wondering, looking at the climate action plan, we have specific goals, of course, that refer to actual
- percentages and numbers as far as decreasing reliance on fossil fuels and energy efficiency and stuff.
- So have these
- Programs that you talked about which are wonderful. Have they been tagged back to the goals in the plan?
- And if so, how how are we doing on achieving the goals? That's a great question. And I think it's a
- very difficult one I think right now we are able to look at our greenhouse gas emissions inventory and
- see the progress that we're making there but individual level goals, I think it's
- More challenging to have the capacity to look at each of those goals and how we are making progress
- For instance, I think probably the easiest one would be the level of EV adoption I think the state has
- some records that we could try to source and find out if we're making progress on that But some of those
- other ones it's a little bit more elusive as to how we would collect data to prove the the progress
- that we're making
- But for now, I think the best that we can do is our greenhouse gas inventory gives us an overall view
- of our community and the progress that we're making. And how often is that inventory going to be done
- annually? So we are we're working on the 2024 greenhouse gas inventory data. It's been very difficult
- to get that data from Duke Energy, but we are making progress and I hope to have that published soon.
- Okay, great. I'll look for that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Are there other questions?
- I have one more than two in terms of the stay cool Bloomington and the AC distribution program. There
- were 28 applications but only eight installations like can you talk a little bit about like that application
- process and what what maybe was it about those applications that were rejected that they like didn't
- meet some qualification or another.
- That's a great question. We actually have had a lot of success with people applying for the AC units
- and then reaching out to their landlords and having them fix their AC units themselves. So it's been
- a success even if we're not actually installing units where we're working with hand. Whenever we get
- one of those requests we let them know hey someone's AC unit is not working in their apartment or what
- have you. And so we're seeing success in that manner.
- Wonderful that that's an interesting Sidebar process. Thank you any other questions Thank you, we have
- a couple more minutes of that 20 minutes if there's anything that you want to add and I want to give
- you that opportunity If you can talk to all of your constituents about Bloomington energy works, I would
- really appreciate it Our first webinar is next Wednesday. I'm really we're really trying our best to email and
- Commercial businesses manufacturers just really trying to get the word out and get people there Because
- this is our opportunity to raise our hand as a city of Bloomington and say we're ready for these investments
- So we want to bring low-cost capital to Bloomington and the only way to do that is if we all come together
- and Work on this together and get our list of projects that need financing Okay. Thank you. Thank you
- very much. Thank you. Thank you for being here. I
- I have to get back to my agenda now. Council committees no reports from council committees. So that
- brings us to our first session for reports from the public. So this is the first period of public comment.
- If anybody has a comment on an item not on the agenda this evening if you are in chambers you can go
- ahead and make your way to the podium. If you're online you could raise your hand using the reactions
- tab or send a chat message to the host. So once again this is for comments on items that are not on
- our agenda this evening.
- See anybody moving in chambers who wants to talk about random things anybody online Okay, there'll be
- another opportunity for general public public comment at the end if anybody wants to take advantage
- of it then No appointments to boards and commissions. So we are on to legislation for first readings
- That's all right, I was asking questions at the wrong time I
- I move that ordinance 2025-46 be introduced and read by the clerk by title and synopsis only second
- Thank you. It's been moved and seconded to introduce ordinance 2025-46. All those in favor, please say
- aye. Aye any opposed Thank you. Will the clerk please read? ordinance 2025-46 to mend the bloomington
- zoning maps and zone property currently in the monroe county jurisdiction to residential medium lot r2
- in anticipation of voluntary annexation regarding 2005 West Corey Drive William Lamont I petitioner
- the synopsis is as follows this ordinance recommends that the property at 2005 West Corey Street be
- zoned residential medium lot r2 if the voluntary annexation is approved Thank you I Move that ordinance
- 2025 dash 47 be introduced and read by the clerk by title and synopsis only I
- Second, it's been moved and seconded to introduce ordinance 2025-47. All those in favor, please say
- aye. Aye. Any opposed. Thank you. Will the clerk please read Ordinance 2025-47 to amend title eight
- the Bloomington Municipal Code entitled historic preservation and protection to establish a historic
- district Regarding the Ivan Adams House Historic District Bloomington Historic Preservation Commission
- petitioner. This synopsis is as follows I
- This ordinance amends chapter 8.20 of the Bloomington Municipal Code entitled, List of Designated Historic
- and Conservation Districts in Order to Designate the Ivan Adams House, Partial Number 013-065-8000,
- Late Slot 28, located at 115 East 12th Street, City of Bloomington, Monroe County, Indiana, as a historic
- district. Built in the mid-1920s, the Ivan Adams House is a craftsman California bungalow that retains
- a high degree of architectural integrity.
- The house is associated with Ivan Adams one of the most prominent local stone carvers whose work can
- be found in significant and recognizable sites around Bloomington in the United States. Thank you. We'll
- hear those ordinances and have public comment on them on December 17th two weeks from tonight. And the
- last one I move that ordinance 2025 dash 43 be introduced and read by the clerk by title and synopsis
- only. Second.
- It's been moved and seconded to introduce ordinance twenty twenty five dash forty three. All those in
- favor please say aye aye. Any opposed. Thank you. Will the clerk please read ordinance twenty five dash
- forty three ordinance annexing certain real estate to the city of Bloomington Monroe County Indiana.
- Synopsis is as follows this ordinance pursuant to a voluntary annexation petition annexes the real estate
- commonly known as 2005 West Corey Drive Bloomington, Indiana a parcel located outside of but contiguous
- with city boundaries Thank you
- So as I said earlier even though we don't usually have any any public comments on items for first reading
- it because the state requires a public hearing at least 10 days in advance of a vote on an item we will
- have a public hearing tonight on ordinance 2025 43 and so if somebody from the public would like to
- speak to that annexation petition
- I would like to just remind everybody right now that there is a resolution specifically regarding the
- fiscal plan for the city, that there will also be a chance to discuss it. So this period of time is
- just for the public wanting to comment on the voluntary annex overall. So if you are in chambers, you
- can go ahead and make your way to the podium, and you'll have up to three minutes. If you're online,
- you can raise your hand using the Reactions tab or send a chat message to the host. So I see a couple
- people thinking like they want to go over, just go ahead
- and make your way to the podium. It's kind of a first come first serve sort of moment. We can all be
- orderly about it. There should be a paper there so you can sign in and then please state your name for
- the record and you'll have up to three minutes. Is staff ready with the timer?
- Excellent whenever you're ready. Go ahead and start sir. Good evening. My name is Jay Nelson And I thank
- you for the opportunity to speak here My family owns the property at 2009 West Corey Drive, which is
- directly next door to the property that we're talking about here Normally, I'm pretty good at winging
- it here, but I'm gonna read off of this so my grandmother who is elderly and a long-term resident lives
- in this and
- Home of ours that we own there and she's been a long-term resident there And this is going to directly
- affect her daily safety stability and well-being I'm here today to respectfully express my opposition
- into the voluntary annexation and rezoning of this property to request that the Commission take a much
- closer look at the real environmental and neighborhood level impacts that it would create and
- First this lot contains features that appear to be a sinkhole or active karst areas There is visible
- depressions unusual drainage patterns and long-standing pooling after storms that we observed for years
- The planning staff report itself references a potential karst feature in the southeast corner of the
- lot the terrain poses a serious risk of building foundations groundwater storm water flow and surrounding
- properties and
- Any development, especially a duplex, could cause ground instability, erosion, or flooding that would
- immediately affect our home and my grandmother's safety. At a minimum, no land use change should be
- approved without a full geotechnical and karst assessment by a qualified engineer. This should include
- soil borings, groundwater review, and formal stormwater management plan. Approving an R2 zoning before
- these studies are done puts residents at risk.
- Second, there is a longstanding recorded drainage drainage easement on this lot. This easement was created
- when the subdivision was approved in the early 1990s. The easement exists for a reason to protect downstream
- homes from runoff, pooling water and stormwater displacement. Third, Corey Lane and Corey Drive are
- not adequate condition to support increased density.
- Both are narrow residential streets. The road surface is deteriorating and has long unaddressed potholes
- and erosion with no clear maintenance responsibility between the city and County Adding a duplex increases
- traffic parking pressure and wear and tear on the roads Fourth this duplex would be the only duplex
- on the street. They're all single-family homes and
- and this property is looking to be that and that would change the character of the street and
- that development area and Even the property value my times running up and fifth is just the environment
- meant at impact of the tree removal This person's already removed some trees. I don't know without permit
- or whatnot, but that that's an issue But I urge you to actually go drive by this and you'll see That
- it should not be approved. So thank you for your time
- Thank you. Is there anybody else who would like to comment on this? Go ahead and make your way in make
- sure that you sign in and then state your name for the record And then you'll have up to three minutes.
- Is there anybody who's raised a hand online? Okay Go ahead when you're ready Hi, I'm Leslie Ruiz. I
- live just north of this property right across the street I'm also going to try and read to
- Keep things concise. I'm concerned about the timing and purpose of this request as the Planning Department's
- report states if a carts feature is verified that it would be restricted for development within 25 feet
- of the last closed contour Because the land owner is seeking annexation in order to construct a duplex
- It seems important to fully understand whether the karst features limit
- Or constrains development before changing the jurisdiction. It would be prudent to evaluate whether
- annexation is premature Until an appropriate assessment of the karst feature and drainage impacts is
- complete Ensuring the site can safely support this proposed duplex before altering the jurisdictional
- boundary helps for avoid unforeseen complications for both the city and nearby county residents in particular
- I'm concerned that any construction on this parcel may alter water flow
- Through our our shared drainage system and increased flooding on my property Flooding that has already
- grown worse over the past several years despite no other changes to the surrounding environment It seems
- important to evaluate whether the current geological features of the property should Support the the
- build the landowners seeking as well as whether additional impervious surface could exacerbate the flooding
- additionally the geometry of this lot and the roadway conditions on Cory Drive present significant
- constraints and
- The section of street between our two properties is already narrowed due to the drainage and karst features
- beneath it, which limits safe on-street parking even under current conditions. Duplexes typically bring
- multiple adult residents with multiple vehicles, and our subdivision has no sidewalks, so children,
- including my own, use the street itself to ride bikes and scooters, and families walk along the roadway.
- Increased curbside parking in an already narrowed section of street reduces visibility, constricts the
- travel lane, and heightens safety risks
- For the children and pedestrians who rely on the street as their only route. This raises real concerns
- about whether a higher density residential use is compatible with the physical limitations of this part
- of Corey drive. I also want to reiterate that our subdivision Corey estates remains firmly opposed to
- annexation as expressed throughout the recent annexation process.
- Annexing the single parcel would create what is effectively a permanent service island Such boundaries
- present ongoing challenges for police fire and first response services for instance an emergency Involves
- properties on both sides of the line determining which agency responds or whether multiple agencies
- must respond can complicate coordination duplicate efforts or slow service delivery to the entire area
- similar issues arise with jurisdiction for law enforcement and routine control coverage and
- These complications will persist indefinitely if the surrounding subdivision remains unincorporated
- as residents have clearly indicated they intend to do For these reasons I respectfully ask the Commission
- to consider whether the timing Practical implications of annexing the single parcel serve the long-term
- interests of the city the applicant in the surrounding community. Thank you Thank you Has anybody raised
- a hand on zoom? Is there anybody else in chambers who would like to make a comment about this during
- the public hearing time?
- Right seeing none I'll go ahead and close the public hearing then and just make sure that everybody
- understands that in two weeks from tonight then on the 17th sorry yes on the 17th of December we will
- hear this petition for second reading and at second reading there will be an opportunity to have public
- comment again. And on then to our legislation for second readings and resolutions.
- I move that resolution 2025 dash 19 be introduced and read by the clerk by title and synopsis only Second,
- it's been moved and seconded to introduce resolution 2025 19. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye
- Any opposed? Thank you. Will the clerk please read? Resolution 2025 dash 19 adopting a fiscal plan for
- the annexation of property contiguous to the city of Bloomington, Indiana Synopsis is as follows this
- resolution approves a fiscal plan as required prior
- Prior to a voluntary annexation into the city of Bloomington. This fiscal plan is for the property located
- at 2005 West Corey Street Bloomington, Indiana Thank you, I move that resolution 2025-19 be adopted
- Thank you very much. Do we have somebody here to present this tonight? Do we literally have nobody here
- to present this tonight I
- Council attorneys do you know anything about this. I would think there would be somebody here from the
- legal department. I don't know. OK. Is he who should be doing the presenting. Wonderful. Thank you.
- Mr. Wheeler, when you're unmuted, you can go ahead and introduce yourself for the record and go ahead.
- Thank you. Do you want my video to be enabled as well? That would be great. Thank you. Yeah, someone's
- going to have to allow that. You should be able to turn your video on. There we go. There we are.
- It's challenging to tell you guys that I'm here when I'm muted and I can't unmute myself. So thank you
- for finding me. My name is Chris Wheeler. I am an assistant city attorney with the city of Bloomington.
- I'm here tonight to represent or sponsor, if you will, the resolution that's for the council. This is
- the fiscal plan that was put together by the legal department with the help of most of, well,
- many departments throughout the city.
- to try and identify the fiscal impact, if any, positive or negative for this voluntary annexation. I
- feel that it's fairly self-explanatory. I'm certainly happy to answer questions, but as you go through
- the fiscal plan, you will find that predominantly, if not entirely, each department has considered the
- impact that it might feel having a single parcel annexed into the city and in this case a parcel where
- the owner intends to put a duplex on the property. The police department, the fire department,
- public works, planning and transportation, parks, even the utilities department, they don't believe
- that there's any fiscal impact. They already are
- servicing and providing services to the area immediately adjacent to this property. So picking up trash,
- policing, hands doing inspections of a rental property. None of the directors saw any fiscal impact
- that's of any real substance. And then if you scroll down and look at the taxation ramifications, the
- city would
- enjoy a slight uptick in his revenue simply by having an additional property come online. I'm happy
- to answer questions with regards to this fiscal policy. It is part of what's required by statute. We
- did try to put this together in keeping with what the statute requires. I'm here to try and answer any
- questions that council might have. Thank you.
- Thank you so much other questions from councilmembers about the fiscal plan councilmember Rallo Thank
- You mr. Wheeler The slight uptick in revenue experienced by the city for this and a voluntary annexation
- This is related to the intensity of use and the intensity of use is to be determined And so I'm curious about
- Whether this was considered in In in the estimation of effect on the city I'd like for you to help me
- understand what you mean by intensity well if if if the request to build something on the property is
- going to Be decided to be a Greater use than what it would have been in the county. Is that my understanding?
- that the that the request that we will be hearing in the future will be for in a increase in use in
- Intensity sure it's going to go from so developed parcel to a parcel with a As I've been explained it's
- been explained to me by the owner a duplex Yeah, so the the owner would like to build a duplex whether
- he's in the city or not and
- My understanding of the primary reason behind wanting to voluntarily annex is so that he would have
- the benefit of connecting to sewer and water. Putting a I don't think that I don't think that he's having
- any success getting a septic system put in the rest of this neighborhood.
- did have the opportunity and did connect to sewer and water for the city and does receive those city
- services. Under the current rules and regulations for the utilities department, he's not eligible to
- connect unless he's part of the city. That was the impetus behind why he decided to try and get voluntarily
- in. If he could have, if he could properly connect otherwise and stay in the county, he would build
- that duplex anyway.
- Do you happen to know if the environmental considerations on the property or will change I? Don't have
- any answer for that. I feel like that's more of a planning department concern I can tell you that we
- didn't give any consideration to environmental impact in the fiscal policy Okay, thanks other questions I
- Councilmember Piedmont Smith. Is there any cost to the city for having a building to be built on this
- property connect to water and sewer with those costs all be borne by the property owner. The cost to
- connect will be borne by the property owner just like any other property owner who connects to the two
- water and sewer with the utilities department requires the connection fees to be paid to the utilities
- department.
- And any installation of laterals into the ground as a cost of this form by the developer or the property
- owner who's developing? Okay, thank you Other questions comes member rough Correct and are Do we have
- any idea how many properties? Along Cory Lane and maybe on Anna Lee Lane are currently connected Yeah,
- that's a good question. I
- I've looked at them. I've looked at the GIS for this neighborhood. I don't remember how many how many
- parcels are developed in that neighborhood. Not all of them are. I think there are a couple extras properties
- down at the end of the street that are not developed. But the sewer line and water line run all the
- way down through that street. And it is my understanding that every property on the street that is developed
- is connected to sewer and water for the city.
- Thank you. Thank you Are there other questions first-round questions Okay, I have a first-round question
- There was a comment during the public hearing Commenter expressed concern about police and fire response
- and in the fiscal plan neither the police department or the fire department expressed fiscal
- Cost like a find a direct cost but did any of them when you were talking to them express concern about
- response? and logistics of response given that it would be the only Property on the city that they would
- have to respond to a complaint about No, nobody expressed a concern about that. I didn't ask about that
- But nobody expressed a concern about that Okay, thank you. Look around the city. There are lots of little
- sawtooth areas that already exist
- I call them sawtooth areas, little areas that jut out and jut in where properties are or are not part
- of the city. And I don't know whether there's confusion or concern that exists as a result of that sort
- of jigsaw or sawtooth configuration. And I can't. So I'm just kind of expounding here, but I don't have
- any information for you that would suggest
- That there is any confusion or concern or that there's a slower response time as a result Great. Thank
- you Let's go ahead and go If there are no other first-round questions. Oh councilmember. Sorry.
- Thank you. Thank you so much attorney Wheeler The question that I have is that well first off for clarity
- Passing this fiscal plan does not mean that we are passing
- Approval to annex this this place we're just saying that that the data that we have been given About
- the fiscal state of this is acceptable under Indiana code, right? That's 100% right. This is merely
- a step in the process towards being able to have this body adopt the ordinance for
- Voluntary annexation excellent and then and so so so within that just my question about the document
- itself Is that throughout we're told that there's no I? Mean, it's fairly thin right it says there's
- no impact Financially on on the city, but I'm interested in your legal opinion. Have we provided enough
- evidence of that and
- That there's well I mean I think the the language we're using in here is that there isn't any direct
- cost it there's there's there's nominal impact because you do have one extra tiny little territory here
- it's a very small parcel but. So there there's a there's some kind of a nominal amount but it's it's
- not enough to really cause the budget of any one of these departments to change.
- And then the you said earlier that the question the main impetus of doing this was sewage but then that
- there's already sewage connected there and another time. No there's not already sewage connected there.
- It's an undeveloped property. There's already a sewer main and a water main that are in the street facing
- the property so that it can connect but it's not
- Allowed to connect because it's not in the city of Bloomington and those would be those costs would
- be borne by the developer not by the city That's right. Okay. Thank you Any other first-round questions
- Okay, let's go ahead and go to second round councilmember rough So The property owner has a right to
- develop In the county as it is right now, correct at least a single-family
- I don't know what the county's rules are and I don't know what the county's position is at the moment
- with regards to a septic field that would have to be put in the ground there. Maybe with the karst features,
- it could be problematic. I don't know. So I just know that the property owner sees an opportunity to
- actually get city provided water and sewer by doing a voluntary annexation, which I think probably makes
- the property
- Easier to develop there's less ground that has to be devoted to the sewer and water or the sewer service
- So that leads to my what my main question which was Isn't and maybe mr. Glad mr. Hittle is here because
- he might be able to answer this question actually Isn't the sort of the general state of? Astumption
- about development in a karst area that
- the general environmental cost external potential external cost of development is reduced in a karst
- area by being on sewer as opposed to as opposed to having development in a karst area like this on on
- septic is Is that a general assumption valid assumption?
- Certainly cannot answer that I Don't have any information could sort of speak to that whether just generally
- speaking it's better Thanks for being tagged in for that if you could state your name for the record
- Director of the Department of Planning and Transportation I'm not really sure of the specific answer
- to that question We are aware of there being a car's feature on it just by virtue of viewing the GIS
- and looking at the contours
- It's unknown how exactly that karst feature would impact development if a permit were ever applied for
- on this site Then we would undergo the full review and determine what can be done. It can't be done
- But I don't know the answer as to whether or not karst makes septic or standard sewer more usable or feasible
- Yeah, I was really asking about usability. I was really getting at cost and we're talking about costs
- here and we've been talking about direct cost so far cost of treating it or accessing it for fire and
- police and Service services and utilities, right? This was kind of a more so I was trying to state of
- cost idea. This is a more general cost Indirect cost I was getting at a cost on the community cost on
- the environment to developing on karst and
- versus developing on on sewer and that's why I had my first question was Can they develop this in some
- way under the current? situation with the county so I Understand it's difficult. It's difficult to really
- answer. It would certainly impose a Constraint they'd have to mitigate to be able to develop with that
- feature there and we don't know the extent of it because we've not done a thorough review so
- Kind of speaking at a very high level here today. Thanks very much for responding Thank you other second
- our own questions councilmember Piedmont Smith Yeah, I understand that the court drive is not in good
- shape currently and I'm wondering about Our Department of Public Works taking on responsibility for
- that road. Is that what would happen if this were annexed because I also I
- have heard that the road is actually a private drive. Could you speak to that Mr. Wheeler. I don't know
- what would happen to the road as a whole. That aspect of like I was talking about there are little sawtooth
- areas all around the edges of the city and I don't know how the county and the city determine what gets
- plowed and what does not get plowed what gets paid and what does not get paid. How do we.
- Provide maintenance here and not there. I don't know the answer to that and I'm sorry that I don't have
- a good answer for you at all Mr. Hiddle, do you happen to have information about Cory Drive and whether
- it's a private road? Yes, or whether who would take responsibility for it Could you come to the microphone,
- please? Sorry. I
- Apparently it is private and Presumably would remain so Okay. Thank you Thank you, are there other second
- round questions or first rounds for anybody who all right, I have one Mr. Wheeler in terms of that the
- chart of the
- Anticipated property tax revenue. Is that anticipated revenue based on it being a vacant property or
- based on it being built on? So if you look at that graph initially, the 2025 and 2026 are zeros because
- the property is not part of the city. So there is no tax experience.
- But then when we get to 2027, we can start to look at revenue and it's based solely upon the assessed
- value of the ground because there wouldn't have been a completed improvement on the property in 2026.
- So in 2027, we're just looking at the assessed value of the property, of the ground itself. Then when
- we get to 2028, that calculation is derived from
- calculation that uses both the assessed value of the ground and the assessed value or the Anticipated
- assessed value of the improvement on the property and then it's the same going forward 28 29 and then
- on into the future So and the anticipated improvement, what did you?
- What kind of values did you put in about assumptions about how it would be improved? Did you put a duplex
- in? Did you put a single family in? Does that make that much of a difference? That's based upon the
- property owner's understanding of what the property owner's going to do and the questionnaire that he
- filled out. He anticipates the assessed value of the duplex, the improvements that are put on the property
- to be $400,000.
- Great. Thank you. So if it kind of as a follow-up to that If the property owner was unable to develop
- that duplex because of the potential of Karst issues and all of those sorts of things in terms of the city's
- Fiscal kind of outlook kind of the the the worst-case scenario or lowest anticipated property tax revenue
- would We'd still just get like that like about a hundred dollars or a little bit more at the very least
- even if the property remains totally vacant I know if pivoting from a From a duplex to a single family
- allows him to develop I don't know what this so there is some question about whether there actually
- is a karst feature on the property I'll just say that
- I know that the county had done a karst study many years ago, and in conducting that karst study did
- not show an actual karst feature on this property. But based upon some of the pooling that occurs, or
- I'm not exactly sure about all of the things that you look at, our planning department is concerned
- that there might be a karst feature on the property. And so there is going to be, there's some question
- about that. That being said, I don't know the limitations
- Based upon whatever they determine whatever the whether they find a car speech or not could cause some
- limitation and then so I'm thinking out loud here. If you go just to a single family residential maybe
- it's got a smaller footprint. I don't know. And so maybe you could still develop in that regard. So
- you maybe don't get to put the duplex on but you still get to put something on there.
- Okay, but kind of in terms of looking at it from a fiscal standpoint in terms of revenues and expenditures
- in that kind of lowest revenue Concept there would be no development on it and the city would still
- you know have about a hundred dollars and so with no development like there's also really no expense
- by the city for anything like that there's much less likely to be any kind of police or fire response
- needed there would be trash pickup needed like none of those things and
- And then of course like any kind of development would necessitate some response and the duplex then
- Would probably necessitate the highest potential level of response because there would be two families
- living there versus a single-family home would be of course greater than a vacant lot, but not as much
- potential for emergency response because there only be one family I Agree with that. Okay. Thank you. I
- Any other second round questions? All right, let's go on to public comment then. So if you're a member
- of the public wishing to comment, just on the fiscal plan with regard to this annexation. So not the
- annexation itself, just the fiscal part of it. You can make your way to the podium. Please make sure
- to sign in and introduce yourself for the record and then you'll have up to three minutes. If you're
- online, you can go ahead and raise your hand using the reactions tab or send a chat message to the host.
- So is the timer ready? Wonderful whenever you're set to go ahead and state your name again for the record
- and you'll have three minutes. Thank you Yeah, once again Jay Nelson Talking about these costs. I'm
- a home builder and been in construction for a long time Here in town, but when we're talking about Annexing
- and the cost beyond this you've made some valid points and bringing this up on these costs But I really
- feel that we're going about this the wrong way. I really feel that it needs to be addressed and
- Assessed if this can even be built on first or if the city wants to take this on as part of that annexation
- first because if I urge you to drive by this property and you'll get a good look and I want to I would
- love to see your opinion how you could build a duplex on this property and what type of land that is
- needed right it's it's pretty much a sinkhole and
- And it's really bad. It's loaded with trees and it's a big divot. I just don't see how that's possible
- as a builder So I'd like to see it go that way first if that can be done if it's a duplex Or if it's
- a single-family home and then you can start talking about annexation I'd say would be the proper way
- to do things and then as Cory Lane is a dead-end road It's literally a dead-end road with a cul-de-sac
- at the end There's a home on the corner at the front of the road
- There's this lot and then there's my where my grandmother lives and this lot we're talking about annexing
- this in the middle of the street just really doesn't make sense to just chew off and like yours like
- you mentioned about You know a sawtooth if you will It just doesn't make any sense to do that If it's
- gonna be done, it should be the whole street, which we don't want but that would be the proper way to
- do it I understand, you know, you eat an elephant, you know bite by bite, but it
- That's not the proper way to do annexation in my opinion. But then as far as that roadway, there is
- who plows that right now. So are we gonna skip over that area if it was to be annexed? There will be
- costs associated with it even if it's just land and it sits there at just land making $100.
- because there can still be an accident on there, some kid falling off a bike and needing emergency services.
- There's still your time and any other fees that might be associated with it. So for a revenue of just
- the land is not worth it in my opinion for a city to annex that. So it really goes back to the point,
- can you build? And then you have that discussion. And a duplex would require much more services because
- you also don't know the people that might
- Move into that duplex or single-family home where they might need more emergency services than most
- we don't know that yet and then Just my last thing is once again, I really really urge you to drive
- by and look at this I I do before you even consider going any further with it. Thank you Thank you,
- are there other Looks like there's somebody else in chambers, please make sure to sign in and state
- your name for the record Are there any hands raised on zoom?
- We'll go to zoom next Go ahead and start when you're ready Good evening council members Paul posts here
- with a little bit different hat than I usually come to you with I'm here as a resident of the street
- in question So I'm going to talk with both hats for a moment and looking at the fiscal plan specifically
- the language that I saw said the cost estimates of plan services to be furnished to the territory to
- be annexed
- The plan must present itemized estimated costs for each municipal department or agency So and I kept
- reading through that I kept looking for numbers for each of the you know departments that this talked
- about and there's not numbers there just says We have a department that exists and they'll take care
- of it So then I want to solidly put my FOP hat back on and talk about the police department the police
- department you know the FOP is concerned with with the annexation has been you know, we're understaffed
- as it is and
- Taking on even just one more property is you know one more property? It's fine. It's one one property
- But right now our concern is is annexation going through or not? It's an ongoing litigation that we're
- watching very closely Our staffing level remains today. We're 12 short of the budget 105 officers There's
- only 76 available officers to work the entire city regardless of its one property or the whole city and
- We know there's another two officers scheduled to leave one in January one looking at February Okay,
- so can we hire our way, you know fast enough to keep up with that. That's my concern I'm gonna talk
- specifically to that department and my concern there is staffing that one the fire department the planet
- or the Parks and Rec the other ones listed there. I don't know. There's no number listed
- That's what I would like to see in a fiscal plan is an exact number That someone boiled down and said
- this is what we think it would actually cost for this one property For each, you know year or each department
- something like that So that's what I wanted to express in terms of the the fiscal plan again. I agree
- with what my neighbors have said tonight We were firmly opposed to annexation in that area. This seems
- like an end run around things. Thank you
- Thank you. Let's go ahead and go to the person on Zoom next, and then we'll come back to chambers, okay?
- So Deputy Attorney Bennett, if you wanna go ahead and unmute them. When you're unmuted, go ahead and
- state your name for the record, and then you'll have up to three minutes. Hi, my name is Paul Rousseau.
- I understand that, I think it was Council Member Ruff asked about the karst geology.
- So I turned to our friendly Google Gemini, and I asked Google Gemini about septic systems in karst areas.
- Gemini says, septic systems are risky in karst areas because the fractured limestone bedrock and thin
- soils provide minimal natural filtration, allowing untreated wastewater from septic systems to quickly
- contaminate groundwater and surface water.
- This can lead to serious public health issues and requires the use of alternative advanced septic systems
- and careful siting to protect vulnerable water sources. My second comment would be that, financially
- speaking, almost every complexity in this situation could be mitigated or eliminated if the neighbors
- on Corey Drive would just agree to be annexed.
- As they benefit from city services while being surrounded by the city instead of fighting a tooth and
- nail on the courts Thank you Thank you, let's go ahead and go back here in chambers Do we have any other
- hands raised on zoom? Okay, go ahead and sign in again state your name for the record and then you'll
- have up to three minutes Hi, I'm Leslie Ruiz again I just wanted to make two responses to things that
- You guys had brought up as it as it comes to like that sawtooth idea there is a chain link fence all
- the way along the boundary between this property and city property. So you would have to access it through
- quarry drive which means you would be using that roadway whether it's private or not. I don't really
- know what the legality is but it is not a good road particularly in that area. There's erosion things
- like that also.
- There is regardless of whether there is an actual karst feature which we all believe that there is there
- still is a drainage field that they cannot build on that is 40 feet wide which takes up a significant
- part of that property leaving a very very small area for them to be able to build on with all of their
- restrictions from how far they can build back from the road.
- from the back of the property things like that it is very very small. So we're talking really small
- driveway probably on street parking again which wouldn't be city it would be ours it would be county
- I don't know. But there's just a lot of concerns there. They can't build that big of a space on that
- property. It's very very small. So that's all I really have to say. Thank you.
- Excuse me. Thank you. Are there any other commenters on Result, I've forgotten my name resolution 2025
- 19 and chambers Has anybody raised a hand on zoom? Okay, let's revert back to council then Are there
- any councilmember questions that have been come up councilmember Flaherty? Yes. Thank you a couple One
- it's like a two-parter related to sewer system and
- One is that my understanding is that you can't add a septic system in a lot like this anymore that there
- are Indiana regulations that would prevent that and I believe mr. Wheeler kind of Tangentially referenced
- that that the owner was not having success getting a septic system Could someone maybe either from CBU
- or mr. Wheeler? confirm that Assumption It's mr. Wheeler still on zoom Yeah, I'm still here. Thank you
- I was contemplating what you're saying. I don't have a knowledge as to the success or the legal availability
- of folks in the county based upon any laws that the county might be trying to regulate and enforce.
- I don't have any information on how that works. So I don't feel comfortable just sort of winging it.
- I regret that I don't have any information for it. I'd be happy to try and dig some up and talk to you
- about it later. That's going to Probably have a lot more to do with the annexation itself versus whether
- the fiscal plan gets adopted This is true Thank you. Maybe a question I would like possibly you or someone
- at the city utilities to be prepared to answer I wouldn't hear the other parts of the legislation related to this
- But then second, just to confirm, you mentioned that in order to, well, actually, yeah, I think it's
- a follow-up in the same vein, and so I'll save that for another time. I did have a second question,
- though, which I could ask now or hold. Why don't you go ahead? This is just following up on Mr. Post's
- comments about putting some language about itemized by department-like budget impacts.
- And I agree with you that the impacts will be nominal and quite minimal. But still, one could estimate,
- you know, okay, let's assume there's gonna be a rental hand inspection. Like, how many staff do we have?
- How many inspections do they do a year? Like, divide and, like, actually get that marginal cost and,
- like, understand, like, what that is, even if it is nominal. Is it your legal opinion that it's not
- necessary to do that based on state law? And...
- Is that rooted in precedent or other cases where we've seen municipalities use this approach of saying
- that there are no substantial costs and that's kind of good enough for a fiscal plan for a very small
- property addition like this? Well, my opinion is that when you have such an inconsequential amount,
- I think it's okay to say that rather than trying to crunch the numbers and figure out what those dollars
- or hundreds of dollars might be.
- I can also tell you that this fiscal plan is a direct borrowing, if you will, of the fiscal plans that
- the Fishers City Council uses. And when they are doing a single parcel like this, their language is
- the same. They're looking at it as these are nominal. They're not, they're aren't any like direct costs.
- So they don't show actual dollars. Now, when you get into a much bigger
- Chunk of land that would get annexed now. You have to start looking at Showing the the actual impact
- versus something like this, which is just nominal But we don't have like specific court guidance say
- or case law that like confirms that that saying a nominal fees Okay. Thank you Are there any other lingering
- questions before we do councilmember comment councilmember Rallo Mr. Wheeler, I'm just
- The context other nearby properties are on sanitary sewer, correct That's correct. And this one was
- denied. Is that correct? well He so I'm trying to think if he did ask I don't recall if he specifically
- asked that I think what he did was
- as he came to the utilities department wanting to know whether he would be eligible and That is when
- we recommended to him that no You won't be eligible unless you can get annexed into the city and he
- actually happens to be contiguous. So He can voluntarily annex Okay, well that gets to my question is
- that the the administration of the city's policy right now is to deny any sewer connection unless you
- are annexed
- Well, yeah, unless you're part of the city you don't get to connect anymore and that to my knowledge
- is going to be the Policy for the city for the foreseeable future when you look around the state of
- Indiana I was surprised to find that a Great many municipalities have that policy. They simply don't
- extend outside city limits Yeah, the city of Bloomington was doing that but it was under understandings
- and agreements that are now being violated Yeah, it's not a judgment. It's just clarification
- Sure to understand it. Thank you Are there any other councilmember questions before we move to comments?
- Okay, seeing none, let's go ahead and move to comments are there council members who would like to comment
- on this resolution before a vote No comments before the vote councilmember Piedmont Smith
- I think the fiscal plan is sufficient the way it's presented and I think the impacts will be nominal
- and so I'll be voting. Yes. Thank you Any other councilmember comment I will go ahead and say that I
- agree with councilmember Piedmont Smith. I
- I will also be voting. Yes, I do think that it's sufficient and that there are nominal impacts and that
- kind of that worst-case scenario is it's gonna stay a vacant lot if it can't be developed on because
- of environmental features and that I don't think that that would be I Think the fiscal plan is is okay
- for that possibility as well So if they're councilmember Rallo for a comment, you know just to add that
- for clarification that I I find this sufficient and
- Annex, but this is not a You know, it's not an indication of a decision on future rezoning Any other
- councilmember comments before vote councilmember Ruff Yeah, I mostly agree with the comments and made
- so far by my council colleagues that though I do certainly respect the Comment a public comment by
- Mr. Post that Of course any individual given additional parcel might have a very small marginal impact
- on the ability for example for an understaffed police force to to serve it, but that's how that's how
- Cities grow right one piece at a time or an annexing of an area several parcels at a time It's like
- the whole idea of wetland as well. You know, you you know you you
- Paid over one small wetland area and it doesn't really change the total amount of the state, but it's
- all about incremental Additions and expansion a bit at a time. So I'm very sensitive to that And I also
- want to emphasize like as my relative this doesn't indicate Saying that yeah. Okay this fiscal plan
- impact statement looks You know looks good enough for me to vote yes doesn't mean I'm I'm not going to
- I'm gonna support the subsequent legislation is gonna come are lit related to this parcel Any other
- councilmember comment before we vote Okay, seeing none will the clerk please call the roll on resolution
- 2025 19 Yes, yes Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes Yes, sorry. Yes. Yes
- Thank you and that passes with a vote seven to zero on to the next I Move that ordinate appropriation
- ordinance 2025 dash 14 be introduced and read by the clerk by title and synopsis only Second It's been
- moved and seconded to introduce appropriation ordinance 2025 14. All those in favor, please say aye.
- Aye Opposed. Thank you. Will the clerk please read?
- Appropriation ordinance 2025-14 to specially appropriate from the General Fund Parks and Recreation
- General Fund Motor Vehicle Highway Fund CC Jack Hopkins fund expenditures not otherwise appropriated
- Appropriating various transfers of funds within the General Fund Parks and Recreation General Fund Motor
- Vehicle Highway Fund Local Road and Street Fund Public Safety Lit Fund solid waste fund and fleet maintenance
- fund Synopsis is as follows this ordinance appropriates various transfers of funds within the general
- Fund Motor Vehicle Highway Fund Local Road and Street Fund Parks and Recreation General Fund Public
- Safety Lit Fund CC Jack Hopkins Fund Solid Waste Fund and Sleep Fleet Maintenance Fund Thank you, I
- move that appropriation ordinance 2025-14 be adopted Thank you for stepping up
- Who is here to present appropriation ordinance 2025 14? If you could state your name for the record
- and then the floor is yours. Thank you Cheryl Gilliland deputy controller City of Bloomington controllers
- office. Good evening I am going to Present a shortened version of the memo dated November 12th and November
- 18th to council
- Appropriation ordinance 2025-14 is our comprehensive 2025 year-end appropriation request. The overall
- 2025 additional appropriation request is $391,484, which covers eight different funds. Three of the
- funds are requesting additional appropriations, while the remaining five funds are requesting transfers
- within the fund.
- For the general fund, all departmental funding requests will be addressed through transfers between
- and within departments and expenditure accounts. This approach provides the flexibility needed to close
- gaps and balance the general fund budget. For 2025, the net impact on the total general fund appropriation is zero.
- now for each individual department within the general fund. Animal care and control is requesting a
- transfer of $40,000 from classification four capital and 20,000 from classification one personnel to
- classification three services. This $60,000 transfer will cover an increased cost anticipated with outside
- vendor spay
- neuter surgeries Public Works Administration Department is requesting a $85,000 transfer from classification
- for capital to classification three services in addition to this transfer the department is requesting
- an additional appropriation of $215,000 in classification three Each year we budget liability and casualty
- insurance premiums with our best guess estimate as the actual cost is not known until after the budget
- is adopted. The premium rate for 2025 resulted in a drastic increase which is the premise behind the
- additional appropriation request for this department.
- Common Council is requesting a simple transfer of $2,500 from Category 3 services to Category 2 supplies
- to cover higher than anticipated supply costs. Engineering Department is requesting the release of $192,800
- from Classification 1 personnel services
- Due to staff turnover and vacancies the savings will fund other general fund departmental requests in
- the amount of a hundred and fifty thousand dollars the remaining forty two thousand eight hundred dollars
- will be departmental transfer spread between the remaining classifications two three and four The fire
- department
- is requesting a transfer of $195,550 from Classification 3 services to Classification 1 personnel services
- in the amount of $95,550 with the remaining $100,000 going to Classification 2 supplies. The transfers
- will cover an underestimated staffing costs and rescue equipment.
- CFRD has a simple transfer request to move a $1,500 from classification 3 services to classification
- 2 supplies The mayor's office requests the release of $59,000 from classification 1 personnel services
- and $20,000 from classification 3 services the savings will fund other general fund departments including
- Parks and Recreation General Fund. Public Works Facilities Maintenance Division is requesting a simple
- transfer of $8,500 from Classification 2 supplies to Classification 3 services to cover building repair
- and maintenance services. Again, the General Fund has an adequate overall fund balance within various
- departments to cover the mentioned additional appropriation requests.
- There's no fiscal impact on these requests. Now, I will cover the other funds with, again, with only
- three funds requesting additional appropriation. And the rest will be transfers. For the Motor Vehicle
- Fund, Public Works Street Division is requesting to transfer $190,000 from Classification 1 Personnel
- Services to Classification 3 Services
- to cover much higher than budgeted, again, liability, casualty, insurance premiums. Also, the department
- is requesting an additional appropriation of $352,484 in classification four capital to cover the purchase
- of a grapple machine truck to provide public works with the ability to pick up, load, and unload heavy materials
- The street department believes this purchase would be extremely valuable for the future city of Bloomington
- storm or disaster response efforts. The additional funds for this request will come from the disaster
- reimbursement issued by the State Department of Homeland Security for the May tornado cleanup event
- that happened this year.
- For the local road and street fund, Public Works Street Division is requesting a $345,000 transfer from
- classification three services to classification four capital. The department realized substantial savings
- following Duke Energy's new lighting rate structure, which eliminated upfront equipment charges for
- outdoor lighting and instead
- spreads the cost over the life of the system. The department proposes to reinvest these savings in two
- major purchases, one being a new dump truck costing $280,000 to replace a 15-year-old vehicle and a
- replacement pickup truck costing $65,000. Parks and Recreation General Fund
- is requesting a transfer of $135,000 from classification one personnel services to classification two
- services in the amount of $110,000. These transfers will cover supply needs for the new Hopewell Commons
- Park liability and casualty insurance premiums and costs related to an irrigation water leak.
- The department also requests an additional appropriation of $14,000 in Classification III services to
- support the Seminary Park Port-au-lettes. Funding for this appropriation will come from the Earmark
- General Fund coverage through an inter-fund transfer. Public Safety Lit Fund.
- Police Department for dispatch is requesting a transfer of $21,000 from classification one personnel
- services to classification three services to cover potential dispatch HVAC and generator repairs. The
- Jack Hopkins fund common council is requesting an additional appropriation of $25,000 to fund
- an additional food grant. This additional appropriation will leave an estimated cash fund balance of
- $27,600. Solid Waste Fund Public Works Sanitation Division is requesting a transfer of $10,920 from
- Classification IV Capital and $11,000 from Classification III Services
- to classification one personnel services to cover the need of additional seasonal temporary employees.
- And lastly, the Fleet Maintenance Fund, Public Works Fleet Division is requesting a transfer of $100,000
- from classification four capital to classification three services to cover necessary upgrades to cloud
- versions of two main fleet software systems.
- Yes Thank you for your consideration of the 2025 Year-end additional appropriation requests, which was
- vet quite small come in comparison to previous years Thank you so much are there any councilmember questions
- about this operation ordinance councilmember Rollo question about the portal it Seminary part did you
- say fourteen thousand dollars?
- What's the duration of that? How long is it going to be there seems like a significant amount of money
- is it sure I Really do not know the answer to that that wasn't provided when they made the request I
- Assume that it's been part of the expense for this year and the mayor's office requested
- to use some of their surplus funds to Help support it. I just you know, I'm just bad. I just don't know.
- Yeah, I Think I was in there all year I remember having a conversation about it really early in the
- year. Maybe even last year. Does anybody else remember that? All right, no worries, sorry about that
- maybe I can follow up just to find out I
- What this covers the longevity of it, okay It's a good thing so I support it. Thank you. Thank you.
- Are there other questions? Thank you Two questions and I guess I'll probably ask one and then and then
- come back for the for the second round but the I'm particularly interested in the higher than expected cost
- for liability, insurance, other such things. How do we come about higher than expected costs at the
- end of the year? I mean, were those things that sort of surfaced quite early in the budget season, and
- then we're just rectifying it now? Or have these been shifting during the year?
- So when we prepare the budget we have no idea what the rates are going to be for the following year.
- So we give our best guess estimate and we actually did a fairly significant increase for 2025. But after
- the budget was adopted so we received word from the insurance of our rate increase and it was significant.
- When does that rate increase happen.
- I want to say it's in January. Yeah, okay. Okay. Yeah, that would make sense So right in the new year,
- they set some time. Yeah, we're already finished with Of course, we've already done but then the question
- I guess is what are the like what? What's the algorithm that leads to a riser fall in? in insurance
- rates for the city particularly
- Risk would need to answer that but I do know that a lot of it a lot of the rates that get calculated
- do with payouts in the previous years and so forth and I think this year for 2025 are I think we were
- actually dropped and had a new insurance company so we had completely new
- New rates. Okay, and then the final question which was there is just one big question just broken down
- into three small parts but is that are we in like what what investments are we making to de-risk the
- sort of instability of liability insurance and the like it yeah, so I know after this big increase risk
- worked with the insurance company and
- offered a mandatory training session or not really training but a session with our Insurance provider
- to talk about so anyone driving a city vehicle or potentially driving one of our fleet vehicles for
- city business had to attend and They talked about
- things that we can do to help prevent wrecks and to To help just help us in lowering the number of accidents
- that we have Does that lower our rates doing those type of I believe so that that was my assumption
- is by offering that and and it was showing the Insurance that we're taking initiative and we've done
- everything we can do to lower our
- Because I just feel, and I'll just round up, I will stop talking after this, but my concern with this
- is that if we're constantly reactive, and we say, okay, well, it's out of our hands, here we went, they
- raised their rates again, and it's just this constant hole in our rates. Yeah, I don't think that's
- the case. I think risk management is, they really,
- investigate and work with their insurance and you know, they're talking about ways of How we can save
- money and what that means and so they're I'm sure they'll probably Do another session with us next year.
- Excellent. Thank you. Thank you so much. I have another question Thank you I'm actually gonna jump in
- and ask my first round one there because it's kind of a follow-up to what councilmember Sorry was just
- talking about I'm just wondering if
- For fiscal year 2026 in terms of the budget for that that expense of the Of the insurance is do you
- do you expect that you have made a better estimate for next year? So Risk is the one that the risk management
- department actually does our estimate for the coming year. So
- My understanding is that we are taking the current rate and then we did an increase based on his discussions
- with the current provider. Okay. So you know that's thank you. Yeah hopefully. I sure hope so. It was
- a shocker this year. Yeah for sure. Are there other first round questions.
- Go ahead councilmember. Sorry with your second. Okay. So the second question is about I mean the real
- big purchase here is the as the vehicle and I didn't quite understand the Transfer but then it's going
- to be funded by something else this 350. Yeah, so So they had a they had a request to to transfer Some
- money for one purpose, but then they want the additional appropriation
- purchase the one large vehicle yes and they are they want to use the money that we receive from the
- From that settlement, of course, but the question I guess my question is is is temporal here like did
- has that money or because the way it was framed is that We're transferring this money and it's going
- in the future to be refunded by the FEMA. Yeah, we have we've already Okay, so so this is just
- a like-for-like we already have the money to do for things and we're Investing that money to make ourselves
- more resilient in the case of future storms rather than just just dealing with the immediate
- Cost that were associated because we were able to cover that within our budget last year. That's wonderful.
- Thank you very much Great any other questions from council members? Okay, seeing none, let's go ahead
- and go to public comment on appropriation ordinance 2025 14 if you're a member of the public who would
- like to comment on this ordinance if you're in chambers You can go ahead and make your way to the podium
- If you're online, you can go ahead and raise your hand using the reactions tab or send a chat message
- to the host. I
- I'm not seeing any movement in council chambers. Is there anybody with a hand raised on zoom? Okay.
- Seeing no public comments. We'll go ahead and move on. We'll close the public comment period. Move on
- to any last questions from council members. Seeing none. Any council member comments on appropriation
- ordinance 2025 14.
- None, I think that we're ready for the clerk to go ahead and do a roll call vote on appropriation ordinance
- 2025 14 Yes, yes, yes Yes, yes. Sorry. Yes. Yes Great. Thank you. And that passes with a vote of seven
- to zero and now we are on to the next I move that
- Ordinance 2025 dash 44 be introduced and read by the clerk by title and synopsis only It's been moved
- and seconded to introduce ordinance 2025 dash 44 all those in favor, please say aye opposed. Thank you.
- Will the clerk please read Ordinance 2025 dash 44 to amend title 10 of the Bloomington Municipal Code
- entitled wastewater septic collar rate adjustment synopsis is as follows the
- This ordinance amends the rates and charges entitled 10 of the Bloomington Municipal Code entitled wastewater
- to reflect increased cost of treating hauled wastewater to the Dillman wastewater treatment plant.
- Thank you. I move that ordinance 2025 dash 44 be adopted. Second. Thank you. And it looks like we have
- somebody from CBU here to present this evening if you could introduce yourself for the record.
- And then the floor is yours. Yes Catherine Sager utilities director and we are presenting ordinance
- 2025 dash 44 to amend Title 10 of the Bloomington Municipal Code entitled wastewater. I'd also like
- to say that I am joined today by Stephen Stanford and Kelsey Thetonia who have put a lot of the legwork
- into developing this amendment. So I'm going to take some time to talk about their qualifications.
- So Stephen Stanford is our pre-treatment coordinator He joined CBU in July of 2024 and brings more than
- oh, do we not? Present is it not time for the presentation? It's it's time. Oh, it's over there. I'm
- sorry He brings more than 40 years of professional environmental experience including 32 years in the
- private sector and eight years in the municipal sector and
- He's a licensed professional geologist in Indiana and Illinois and holds an Indiana Class IV municipal
- and Class D industrial wastewater operator certifications. And IWIA certified pretreatment coordinator
- credential and has managed municipal pretreatment programs for more than 10 years.
- His experience is concentrated in wastewater treatment for environmental compliance and includes conceptual
- design, RCRA permitting, NPDES permitting, cost estimating for asset management and cost allocation
- for environmental projects up to and including Superfund site cleanups. Kelsey Thetonias, our Assistant
- Director of Environmental Programs. Kelsey has over 12 years of experience working in environmental
- management in state and local government.
- In a role at CBU, she oversees environmental compliance programs for the city's drinking water, wastewater,
- and stormwater utilities. Prior to her position in the city, she managed Monroe County's stormwater
- utility and county drainage board. She's a certified professional in erosion and sediment control, a
- certified erosion sediment and stormwater inspector, and has a master's degree in environmental science
- and public affairs at Indiana University. Finally, I'm also joined by Jennifer Wilson,
- Who is with crow LLP who helped do the design for this proposed rate? Jennifer Wilson is a director
- with crow LLP, which is a certified public accounting and consulting firm crow's municipal advisory
- practice and its predecessor municipal consultants have been providing rate and financial consulting
- services to various types of utility companies for over 60 years and
- Jennifer is a certified public accountant, licensed in the state of Indiana, and is a member of the
- Indiana CPA Society, and a member of the American Institute of CPAs. She's also a designated municipal
- advisor principal, having successfully passed the series 50 exam and series qualified municipal advisor
- principal. Jennifer has been employed with Crow since 1992,
- Crow has been providing municipal advisory and rate consulting services to Bloomington for over 20 years
- Jennifer has been the primary contact for all city of Bloomington utility related engagements since
- 2017 I know I All of these folks have come up before but I thought it would be helpful to know the background
- and credentials that they bring to this this amendment so
- We're here today to talk specifically more about our waste hauler charges We have identified the need
- to reevaluate our billing rates for hauled wastewater, which have not been updated since the year 2000
- These rates were not included in our previous sewer rate adjustments But this is something that we plan
- to include moving forward so that our rates are able to approach the cost of service for hauled wastewater
- Since the year 2000 our direct sewer customers have undergone multiple rate increases resulting in an
- overall increase of 168 percent since the year 2000 additionally since 2000 inflation has risen and
- the construction cost index has increased over 200 percent
- In 2024, CBU commissioned Crowe LLP to study and analyze operating and financial reports and other data
- to calculate an appropriate rate to charge to domestic septage haulers who deposit waste at CBU's treatment
- facilities. And the results of the study confirmed our assumptions that the current charges are severely
- insufficient to cover the cost of treatment of this concentrated waste, which required more use of equipment
- and resources to process.
- Our goal with this proposal is to bridge is to bring the hauled septage rates closer to meeting the
- costs associated with treating this wastewater So in addition to those reasons CPU also has a legal
- requirement to set fees that aim to meet the cost of service and
- So Indiana Code, Title 36, Article 9, Chapter 23, Section 25, provides that we are both required to
- set our fees to be sufficient to pay all expenses incidental to the operation of our sewage works, and
- that we have the ability to use strength or character of sewage discharged into the sewers as a factor
- in establishing that fee.
- So historically, CBU has accepted hauled wastewater at its Dillman Road wastewater treatment plant as
- a service to local residents and businesses located beyond the reach of its sewer system. The extent
- of our current distribution system or our beating heart of public health is shown here. Unlike many
- publicly owned treatment works, CBU provides service to both in and out of county customers. In a 2024
- septic survey from IDEM,
- Out of the 28 publicly owned treatment works that responded, only 19 accept hauled septage. Only three
- of those, including CBU, accept out-of-county septage. Of the 19 that accept septage, only six wastewater
- plants had rates that are lower than what we are proposing tonight. And with that, I'm going to hand
- it to Stephen Stanford, who's going to help explain some of the more technical aspects of this rate proposal.
- Thank you very much cat. I'll try to be brief. I have nine more slides with a lot of information. I
- would like to get in Little background information we're on pace this year to receive five million gallons
- of hauled wastewater At our Dillman plant 91% of that is domestic septage the other 9% is grease waste
- from our more than 500 food service establishments in the city of the septage
- 44% of its from in County and the balance 56% of it is from out of County with our current rate structure
- We're actually attracting hauled septage By haulers that are registered with us from as far away as
- Indianapolis Evansville and even even a couple of different cities in Ohio Septage versus domestic sewage,
- what's the difference? domestic septage is a concentrated high-strength wastewater pump from individual
- septic tanks and
- It has a pollutant concentration reported by EPA of 20,000 milligrams per liter. That's about 2% by
- volume. On the other hand, sewage that comes down the pipe to our Dillman Road plant from the home's
- business and industries comes in with a pollutant content of about 300 milligrams per liter. The difference
- is a factor of 67 when we divide 20,000 by 300.
- We see that the septage is 67 times more concentrated than the ordinary sewage. Okay, cost of treatment.
- This is a part that Crow helped us a great deal with. In 2024, we've got whole year numbers. The Dillman
- Road plant,
- Received a total of 4 billion gallons of wastewater containing almost 10 million pounds of pollutants
- In the crows study they determined that the total cost to treat that water which excludes the cost of
- collections This doesn't include the sewer system This is just owning and operating the Dillman plant
- the way it needs to be in accordance with this permit the cost was ten point two million dollars and
- so it's easy to determine the cost that the total cost of
- Ten point two million dollars and divided by almost ten million pounds of pollutants It turned out at
- just about a dollar a pound dollar and four cents in this case So we know how much per pound it costs
- us to handle the pollutants that come either on a truck or down the pipeline Our current billing rates
- We're set for the domestic sewage
- In our most recent 2022 rate case, you know, on the other hand, as Director Zager said, we
- haven't reevaluated our hauler rates in more than 25 years. What the rates look like today, a customer
- in the city connected to our sewer is paying about a penny per gallon. For the hauled septage from in
- county, we're charging about two pennies per gallon. And for the grease waste, we're charging almost
- six cents per gallon.
- Today's hauler rate proposal here is based on the cost of service the cost of treatment that was determined
- with crow's help They determine that it costs us 17 cents a gallon to treat domestic septage The reason
- for that cost is that a thousand gallons of domestic septage contains a hundred and sixty seven pounds
- of pollutants and
- And a dollar a pound that's a hundred sixty seven dollars for a thousand gallons that works out to Almost
- 17 cents the little difference comes from the administrative charges the labor charges and so forth
- just to administer the hauled waste program Rather than trying to recover it all at once we're we're
- recommending and would like approval to increase the
- Hulled wastewater rate to a uniform stepped increase rate of eight cents per gallon That would be for
- the septage and that would also be for the grease waste And we're also proposing to eliminate the 50%
- surcharge for out-of-county Septage as a matter of policy. We have not accepted out of county grease
- waste at any time to my knowledge and
- Fiscal impact to our customers a CBU we have twenty six thousand three hundred and eighty eight ratepayers
- either sewer and water or sewer or water Of our total customers almost twenty five hundred our water
- only and so I expect that they might be using septic systems And so this this rate increase could directly
- affect them In addition to our ratepayers We're receiving
- Septage from in the county and all the surrounding counties in fact a large swath of southern, Indiana
- There's tens of thousands of households That are the majority of which likely depend on septic systems,
- so they'd be indirectly affected by the proposal today Now what is the What does the effect look like
- for a typical? customer who has a septic system and
- The EPA tells us that a system like that should be inspected every three years and that the tank should
- be pumped every three to five years. If I own a thousand gallon tank and I pump it every three years
- because I wanna keep it working well, CBU's charge to the waste hauler is gonna increase from $20.60
- all the way up to $80. That's the large percent increase that I've seen in print. On an annual basis, however,
- As the septic system owner, I'm only paying $19.80 more a year So it's a large percentage increase for
- CBU that really in the end doesn't add up to much for a typical septic customer Now for a grease waste
- customer Our ordinance requires that grease interceptors be pumped every 90 days and
- A typical grease interceptor is a thousand gallons. And so that's 4,000 gallons of waste per year with
- our proposed adjustment from six cents a gallon to eight cents a gallon. The cost for such a customer
- estimated to increase by about $84 and 40 cents per year. You know, in closing, I like to just emphasize
- that our current rates are not meeting the cost of treatment.
- For any of the whole noise water and we need a rate increase And with that I'd be delighted to take
- any questions Thank you, I also want to note that there is an amendment to this So do we want to maybe
- ask a couple of questions? About what's presented first and then do the amendment or do what do you
- want to do? We may want to do the amendment early because it's fairly straightforward. Okay, go for it. I
- So motion to introduce amendment one second. All right. It's been moved and seconded to introduce amendment
- one for those of you who aren't aware there was a packet addendum sent out today with actually several
- amendments in it one for this ordinance and several for the next two.
- Councilmember sorry, would you like to present? Sure, okay. So this amendment makes three well really
- too straightforward I think but maybe important corrections to ensure that wastewater hauling section
- or code is clear The first thing that it does is that it removes the out-of-county waste surcharge This
- 50% penalty was created decades ago and no longer consistent with the updated rate structure Should
- we adopt that what we're about to do This is all of these things were explicitly recommended
- by utilities and by Mr. Wheeler. The second thing that it does is that it corrects a numbering error
- in the ordinance, so just cleaning it up. The original draft mislabeled the final section of the ordinance,
- so fixing it now just avoids confusion when it's codified. So in short, this doesn't change the substance
- of the rate adjustment, simply removes an outdated surcharge, corrects a drafting error, and provides
- complete updated code language in a clear and usable format.
- Thank you So at this point, we're just discussing the amendment as opposed to general questions about
- the ordinance councilmember Raleigh you have a question about the amendment Yeah, I do Is about the
- ordinance as a whole but this this is appropriate for the amendment Is there is there any reason that
- we should accept sewage from outside the community? at the at the cost to residents because
- If the cost is 17 cents to treat in which in our our rate is going to be eight we're essentially subsidizing
- haulers from outside to come and Dispose of their waste at the expense of current residents the consulman.
- I would consider that a significant policy question Yeah, why are we subsidy why are residents subsidizing?
- Haulers from outsider community
- at a discount Yeah, Catherine Zegar utilities director happy to answer that question The first thing
- that comes to mind is that our water source the watershed for Lake Monroe is outside of our county By
- ensuring that we are able to accept septic waste We are promoting people pumping out their septic tanks
- that are in our watershed So that would be a direct benefit to the utility So
- But what about just limiting it to the watershed? I mean why I mean it seems to me if people are coming
- from Louisville or Indianapolis, that's not within the watershed. So that does that logic apply? Why
- don't we limit it to the watershed? So I think it would be very difficult to limit limit it to the watershed
- But one of the things that our proposed rate change would do was to would discourage haulers from coming
- so far away so
- Eight cents a gallon would be relatively competitive in the region And so may discourage folks from
- taking a very long drive to come dump their septic waste at Dilman Well, it's half it's less than half
- the cost of the state average is my understanding is that correct eight cents Relative to 17.9. I think
- was crow Estimated the state average. Is that correct?
- The state average from the state's 2024 survey there were 82 respondents to the survey 17 of them reported
- that they accept hauled wastewater. Two of the two of the systems that reported and came in with a very
- high number and that sort of skewed the arithmetic mean up to 17 cents. If you sort of dropped caramel
- sites one and two out of the average it would be right. It would be right at eight cents.
- Okay, so So the so there were two outliers that must have been hugely expensive and then the rest were
- Within our neighborhood or lower. Yes between between typically four cents and and 20 cents So I'm but
- okay. So now we're proposing removing a surcharge So now it's going to be even cheaper for outside haulers
- to come. Is that correct? I
- Well, the rate would be very competitive with the the state average excluding Carmel sites one and two.
- Yeah I Understand that you know that Lake watershed Lake Monroe watershed is certainly worth it's a
- public good and we need to Protect it and so there should be incentives involved there but
- Um, it there is no way to limit the haulers to say, you know, a radius that wouldn't involve Louisville.
- I mean, it's clearly that's a long way. I would just, uh, reiterate, reiterate, uh, director Zager's
- response that the competitive rate would should tend to eliminate long distance halls. Okay. Um,
- Does my council colleague who sponsored the amendment do you have a response to?
- You know my concern about subsidized residents subsidizing long haulers to come and dispose of their
- waste. I think it's the I think it's the right question. I think it's a well posed question. I think
- the the view and correct me if I'm wrong from the utilities and I think Mr. Wheeler may still be on.
- But when I was discussing with Mr. Wheeler the view was that
- the change in rates does enough to cause that policy to be irrelevant. So that's sort of the thing.
- It's like you can't distinguish from the folks that are in the watershed and out. So if we keep a surcharge
- and we raise the rates, then that might create some issues that we don't want to see, like people stop
- pumping that are in our watershed.
- So it's just a question about tools and mechanisms here. But but I grew at the broader question about
- whether or not we should be subsidizing you know folks outside of that watershed in essence. But you
- know there are other costs as well associated with them driving here and the time and other things like
- that. Yeah. OK. Thank you. Other questions about Amendment 1.
- Councilmember Piedmont Smith. Yeah I apologize for not having read this but having received it just
- an hour before the meeting. I did not have time so which is no fault of anybody's. I also have an amendment
- that just came up so but I I'm just curious if you could explain why there's all this text in this amendment
- that seems to be added.
- This this is a question for council attorneys More so than me. I don't know if this was a choice not
- Thing was so that we had a clear attachment right as that is that that was the reasoning. Yes Yes, I
- believe that's simply because there wasn't a redlined attachment
- to the original ordinance and we use this amendment as an opportunity to prepare an attachment for that
- purpose. Okay but I'm just looking at the order the amendment form itself and Section 1 you know has
- all these subparts that are in bold and in red. So I assume they are added.
- to the ordinance itself. And then I also see attachment a which has some changes in it. My understanding
- is that this met the approval of the legal department with respect to the language included in it and
- with Chris Wheeler.
- I'm just going to jump in and say I had that question too and I was able to look at it and compare it
- and in the original ordinance it only had the chart of rates and didn't have the rest of the information
- like because I because then I
- Before this I had gone back to the original code because there wasn't a red line included with the original
- packet and I had actually gone back to our original code to figure out what the rates were previously.
- And so I think that it was partly for clarity to so none of that red line text was actually changed
- from what's currently in code except for that struck sentence.
- for out of county waste. Yes I believe that's correct. It was for the purpose of clarity. Chris Wheeler
- also attorney Wheeler also has raised his hand as well online. OK. What would attorney Wheeler like
- to once again introduce himself for the record and address this. Thank you. Yeah. Hi Chris Wheeler assistant
- city attorney with the city of Bloomington.
- The amendment was drafted by your attorneys and I reviewed and approved it. My understanding of all
- the red line language in that first section is simply showing that that section has been changed. It's
- not adding any language. It's actually simply removing one of the paragraphs. I think it's five. It
- just deletes the one section that references the surcharge. The rest of that red line language that's in there
- simply redlined to show that that particular section of Title 10 is being updated. There is no new language.
- There's only the deletion of the surcharge language. That's my understanding of how that was drafted.
- I don't know if that helps. Does that help Councilmember Piedmont-Smith?
- Sorry if I'm being dense here, but I'm looking at this amendment. I don't see any strike through so
- what what are we actually striking? if you go down farther to Where it actually had to keep going Keep
- going so this is code as it's written and then keep going and then that's what we're striking right
- there in purple and
- That's all right. Well I find all this red text and the actual amendment to be very confusing because
- it implies that like that it's new. I'm sorry. OK. So you're saying that the only thing we're changing
- is we're taking out number five under the following types of waste may be accepted for treatment by
- city utilities. No.
- No section five is just being renumbered because it was no no no no. She's talking about the actual
- 10 0 8 1 20 code itself not in the ordinance but the actual code itself. Yes. So so the following types
- of ways may be accepted for treatment. Formerly this list included out of county waste and we're just
- removing that.
- So does that mean we're just not making a distinction between in county and out of county waste. Correct.
- OK. I see. And then the the prices in that orange color in the table that that was the same as in the
- original ordinance. Correct. OK. Yes that's correct. I understand now. Thank you.
- Yeah, I'll go on the record and say that that was also confusing to me I think that it that it does
- make sense because in the original Ordinance none of the language had been changed from that section.
- Only the table had been changed So then none of the language was included in the original ordinance.
- So by striking something we had to remove the amendment removes the original language and replaces it
- with that language and
- Which is all the same as the original except it doesn't include a section to what it's super confusing
- Are there other questions about the amendment other first rounds before we go to second round councilmember
- Rallo Just wondering about what this applies to what what percent comes from out of out of county relative
- to the total I
- Of the septage for this year. It's on pace to be 56% a little more than half Comes from outside the
- county. Yes So a significant amount Okay Could we just a naive question? Can we could we limit it? so
- the Lakeman were watershed if that's our concern is 97% is in three counties and
- Jackson Brown and Monroe could we limit the that That's fee to haulers from those counties Again, I
- would refer that to that would be a significant policy decision I don't do it every time
- So theoretically we could have a policy to limit it to those counties However, we have been reliably
- providing this service to surrounding counties and We did not have the intent on stopping that service
- or changing that service I did want to make sure it was clear that When we remove this 50% surcharge
- the rates for out-of-county are still going up
- from what they used to be so None of the rates are going we're not incentivizing out of County now Any
- more than it already was in fact, it's still more expensive Which is why we were talking about if somebody
- traveled a long way to come dump at Dillman They would be incurring a lot of cost with gas wear and
- tear on their vehicle lost time
- So it would make less economic sense For folks to come further out because it's not as good of a deal
- Anymore even with our flat rate in and out of County Does that make yeah, I? guess You know the Lake
- Monroe watershed is east of here. So if you draw a circle radius 24 miles That would be east of here
- would be Lake Monroe watershed
- going west Those people are not contributing to I mean, that's that's not endangering the lake. I guess
- what I'm saying is is that You know 56% is a significant amount of waste that we are treating that we
- are subsidizing essentially out of town Out of county haulers. We're subsidizing that I correct me if
- I'm wrong, but if the cost is 17 cents to treat and we're judging 8 cents and
- per thousand gallons then it seems to me we're subsidizing it so Since I represent people in Bloomington.
- I'm not interested in subsidizing people People's costs in the neighboring County and Owen County or
- whatever I'm concerned about people here, especially when it's a rate change and I'm also concerned
- about low low-income people being affected and
- So there's that concern and there's a lot of moving parts here So that's sort of my concern about this
- is that maybe this requires revisiting at some point But that's it seems to stand as we proceed here.
- Thanks. Yep. Go ahead I would just say we might be over like over adjusting to the comment that was
- made about some folks coming from Indianapolis and Louisville I mean, I think that am I correct in saying
- that of the 56% the vast majority of those are within the Lake Monroe watershed to begin with
- large percentage er from the Lake Monroe watershed and surrounding counties but like but I think to
- councilmember ruffs question like is when we're talking about this 56% number is a is is is
- it disproportionately people who are far I mean we've already talked about and I said it in my initial
- response like the the reason why you take away the surcharge is just to make it a lot more simple where
- the tool that we're using we think would stabilize the use of
- usage to begin with, right? And it's just bringing everything even, which will cut down on administrative
- costs and other things that you don't have to verify where people are coming from, all those type of
- things. But I think that you made a statement in passing that people are coming from Louisville and
- then say 56% is coming from out of town, right? Which we could conflate to say, everybody's coming from
- Louisville and dropping their waste here and we're subsidizing Louisville's waste storage. So can you
- sort of quantify the amount of people who are coming from out of town?
- Yeah so it's a very small fraction of people who are coming from really far out of town. And yes this
- comment was made to just kind of reiterate how low our current rates are is that they are incentivizing
- people to come from so far away. And if we brought them to more comparable rates in the region people
- would not be as incentivized to come that far. Yeah I get that much.
- So you got me about halfway But my previous points still stand so I'm gonna let it go beat that horse
- Are there other councilmember questions We already went did we did we already go to public comment on
- this no, we've got we should thank you Yes, let's go ahead and go to public comment specifically on
- the amendment which
- corrects typographical error and then eliminates this additional charge for out of county waste haulers.
- If you want to speak to the larger rate change you'll have an opportunity to do that after we deal with
- the amendment. So this is just about the out of county charge for the most part. So if you're in chambers
- you can go ahead and make your way to the podium.
- Sign in and then state your name for the record and you'll have up to three minutes if you're on zoom
- You can go ahead and raise your hand using the reactions tab or send a chat message to the host And
- let's go ahead and start here in chambers and whenever you're ready go ahead and start with your name.
- Thank you My name is Courtney Medley and I'm with Medley septic service. I Just kind of wanted to reiterate
- on the out-of-counting because I understand how that kind of came across with
- the out of county haulers coming in and I just kind of wanted to explain a little bit more on that.
- Yes we're concerned about the watershed and that being our you know source of water out of county is
- essentially coming from in county haulers. We are just hauling waste from Greene County Owen County
- and the surrounding counties because this is the localized dump site.
- Yes, there is Columbus and Indianapolis but I think it kind of got made to be more of a haulers are
- coming from so far away to dump more so as it is. Yes, you are the city of Bloomington but we are also
- Monroe County and servicing those surrounding counties. So I just kind of wanted to clarify that for
- you as far as the amendment goes that it's not just haulers coming out. It is still your local haulers
- that are bringing in
- from the surrounding counties. And with that I don't know that any of us have disputed the out of county
- surcharge so much and I can go into more detail on this later so much how we are currently charged for
- the out of county and mixed loads of say one out of county tank and one in county tank. We are being
- charged as that load being essentially completely out of county.
- So your in-county resident isn't getting the benefit of a cheaper price because if we mix a load it
- comes in at an out-of-county price So I'm not necessarily disputing one way or another of taking that
- surcharge out or not. I just wanted to clarify how we are charged for
- the out of county how we are charged for mixed loads and essentially it is you know your surrounding
- community more that's bringing in some of that out of county revenue versus people making long hauls
- to come here. And it also boils down to a lot of those out of county companies have contracts for our
- restaurant grease traps.
- So some of those counter the companies that are coming from, you know, Indianapolis or the Evansville
- area Strictly do you know restaurant grease removal and they have contracts with some of your larger
- restaurant chains and that in
- You know allows them to dump here for that grease waste also So that is you know, some of your companies
- coming from out of county or you know, even out of city Is because they are servicing the Bloomington
- area restaurants Thank you Thank you It looks like there's another comment and chambers has anybody
- raised a hand on zoom. I
- Okay after this comment in chambers, we'll go ahead to zoom Thank you for signing in and then state
- your name for the record and you'll have up to three minutes Hi, my name is Jeff Todd and I'm the owner
- of Todd septic here in Bloomington and I just wanted to kind of Tag in on what Courtney said because
- she kind of ran out of time But and this does pertain to the out-of-county amendment the way we're currently
- charged is by the size of our
- Tank volume on our truck. So for instance if we went across the Lawrence County line and pumped one
- tank and then got another tank in Monroe County and Disposed of both of those at the same time at Dilman
- We would be charged an out-of-county price for both of those tanks on that truckload so I think that
- was part of the what the amendment was trying to accomplish is is
- Rectifying that situation so that we're not getting overcharged or under charge and things like that
- So that was all I want to say about that part for now. I'll be back later Thank thank you so much. Let's
- go ahead and go to the zoom commenter When you are unmuted, you can go ahead and state your name for
- the record and then you'll have up to three minutes Hi, it's Paul Rousseau again, I Strongly support
- the concerns expressed by councilmember Rolo and
- My understanding is that utility charges are an intrinsically regressive form of taxation. Regardless
- of whether a person is rich or poor, we all pay roughly the same for sewer and water service. I see
- thousands of people in Bloomington who are barely able to keep a roof over their heads. So I oppose
- governmental policy that would have poor people in Bloomington subsidizing those who live outside of
- our watershed
- I would also add that it will be useful to eliminate motorboats from our water supply. I guess that's
- for another day. Thank you. Thank you. Is there anybody else in chambers who would like to speak to
- amendment one to ordinance 2025 44. Does anybody else have a hand raised on zoom. All right seeing none
- let's go ahead and go back to council. First are there any lingering questions about the amendment.
- None, let's go ahead and go to council comment. Are there any count? Is there any councilmember comment
- about the amendment? Councilmember Piedmont Smith I'm sorry. I actually have a question. It just took
- me a minute. Okay So, I guess this is a question for utilities, I don't know who from utilities but I
- Regarding this question of having a hall of septage where part of it is from outside the county and
- part of it is inside the county Which I do think is problematic to then charge the surcharge Is it instead
- of An alternative solution to this amendment could be if any part of your Your your hall is
- from inside the county then you don't get charged that outside rate or that outside surcharge.
- Is that right. I mean could that be feasible. I would say just in general it's difficult to make the
- separation on a mixed load like the haulers have described for us and that I'm thinking is another one
- of the reasons we wanted to eliminate the difference altogether.
- To make it administratively more efficient for us So are you saying it's it's really hard to determine
- where it comes from anyway, I Mean other than what people tell you There's a lot of moving parts to
- when the holler comes in Purchases a single-load manifest for septage and then yes The holler has to
- record the source for each each part of it but when it's purchased
- dollar has to make a representation to our Sales folks, you know, is this going to be in County or out
- of County? And so it's a little difficult to subdivide it after the fact Director Zager, do you have
- any response to this? Yeah, I just want to reiterate it would reduce administrative burden on our end to just
- not have to make that differentiation and charging for all partial loads either way. And then also I
- just want to say that like part of the reason we did this is because our current fee structure is overly
- complicated. And so this would help us on the administrative end to make it simple for you to just dump
- at the same rate and
- in County out of County Greece I forgot how many different classifications are Septic feet we had a
- table this big and there's all kinds of different fees So so part of the point of this is to decrease
- the administrative burden Thank you any other last questions I
- Let's go to councilmember comment then on amendment one Is there councilmember comment councilmember
- Raul? Yeah, just briefly to say I really appreciate the the comments to clarify clarify the surcharge
- and and I also appreciate the responses to my questions, you know, I know that this is you know a difficult
- it's difficult to to work through the nuances of this but I remain conflicted and it's because of the
- hauling out from out of town and I So I don't think I'm gonna support this amendment. It's not to say
- won't support the ordinance, but in any case That's where I'm at. Thanks Thank you other councilmember
- comment on the amendment I'll go ahead and take a comment then I had a lot of the same concerns that I
- Councilmember Rallo brought up with this in terms of supplementing Outside hollering and waste and I
- really appreciate the discussion and the comments about that I I think that I've come around to supporting
- the amendment because I do think that it would
- really relieve some administrative burden not just for CBU but also for our local local haulers. But
- I also am interested in kind of keeping an eye on this over the next year because I mean if part of
- the argument here is that the rate structure change overall is going to discourage the folks hauling
- from really far away. I want to know if it actually does.
- because if it doesn't then I think that we need to revisit some like figuring out some kind of way to
- Charge more for those folks that are using our facility who are in no way connected to our community
- either through their hauler or their location or Being in the watershed or anything like that. So I'll
- be kind of voting. Yes with a little bit of reservation on this amendment tonight any other council
- comments before we move to vote and
- All right, let's go ahead if the clerk could call the roll on amendment one to ordinance 2025 44 No,
- no Yes, yes, sorry, yes Yes, yes Okay, that passes with a vote of five to two
- So now we are back to discussion about ordinance 2025 44 as amended Which kind of brings us to the overall
- rate change So are there questions about that councilmember sorry now given that I did the amendment
- my questions might surprise you but The they won't surprise you because you knew I was gonna ask this
- question the
- Because I always ask this question when we do rate changes did CBU or crow conduct any elasticity analysis
- Specifically any projection at all of how haulers or their customers might change their behavior in
- response to a rate increase and if not Why not given that more than half of our hauled waste comes from
- outside of Monroe County? I Did not Look at elasticity and I don't recall seeing anything about that
- in the crow study
- you know, I suppose what I would say about this is that Elasticity is not a topic I've addressed very
- often. Mm-hmm. I'll confess
- Well, but it's a knowable thing that how will people's behavior change? And we can think about this
- whether we're thinking that we're setting it at 0.8 or whether you say that you should do the whole
- amount that Crowe recommended. I mean, the core argument is that we think that there will be or won't
- be changes in the ways that people are going to behave with what's being charged. And so either we're
- making the assumption that nothing is going to change, right? That it's just like people will take the fee
- That'll just be it. They'll be happy to pay extra $19 or Something will change and and and so like like
- it seems strange that we don't even consider that at all No, I would have I would anticipate Councilman
- that we're gonna see a reduced total volume of hauled waste coming to our Dillman plant And to that
- I would just add that the operators the Dillman plant our superintendent in particular has repeatedly
- made the point to me that
- Hold the wastewater does him no good. It's it's essentially Dead solids that turns into sludge right
- off the bat. Yeah, and we have to pay to have that landfill, right and so He doesn't need it and doesn't
- really want it to begin with and so in my view if the quantity we receive goes declines in response
- to the price increase That's a win-win
- And is there some benefit? Because when you presented the cost, some of the analysis was the cost to
- us to deal with the pollutants, et cetera. Is there some benefit to the city in that coming down?
- And if so, why not raise it all the way to the highest amount so it doesn't go down further?
- We've got perhaps 2500 water rate pairs in the city that that would impact directly rather than trying
- to Take the whole amount all at once work, you know wanting to kind of ease this in in a stepwise fashion
- Recognizing that we don't want to allow this the hauled waste rates to to go unreviewed for 25 years again
- But okay, but then and I'll and then I'll stop after this but the what why then set it to eight cents
- a gallon instead of 750 like like why Why why do we arrive that the right step is the number that you've
- that you've put out? Well the eight cents we determined that it was competitive with the local market
- and our their pure utilities and it was about half of the increase for the cost of treatment and
- We were hoping that we would be able to move a little closer to the full cost of treatment in a couple
- of different steps Another thing that we want to do is when we look at the next sort of rate case for
- utilities Overall is to take another look at this maybe even do a
- City specific sampling program our septic all ours have to drop a sample off every time they bring us
- a load now that that was a new requirement in our permit from last year and that allows us the opportunity
- to evaluate what we're actually getting as compared to the EPA reference value of 20,000 milligrams
- per liter and so this would give us some time to further develop this and refine where it is we really
- need to be
- to meet our cost of treatment for hauled wastewater and Ordinary sewage as well. Thank you so much.
- I'll have other questions, but for now, thanks Thank you other questions comes member Flaherty Thank
- you. First one is this I know the director's Iger was not in charge over the past 25 years, but I am
- curious why if we have any knowledge about why septic collar rates were not included in prior wastewater
- rate cases and
- Found no evidence one way or the other in historic files that I've looked at Perhaps attorney Wheeler
- would like to comment on that or somebody who's been here longer than I have Attorney attorney Wheeler,
- would you like to have a go first? well
- I'm just going to say that I would like to echo what Stephen just said, is that we don't have
- any understanding from our perspective why that rate was not looked at as part of the regular rate case.
- It's something that we noticed and started paying attention to and decided we needed to correct.
- It's not the normal type of collection rate that we would include with the overall sewer rate case.
- So when we're looking at the collection system and the cost of correction or of eliminating the waste
- and turning it back into water that can come up into the streams behind our plants, going through that
- whole process, it just seems like something that got overlooked over time.
- And we're happy now to be able to actually correct it. So we're bringing it now and not sure why it
- wasn't brought in the past Director Zager, do you have anything to add? No Thank you, and can I follow
- up on some cost related questions or no Sure, I'll wait that way. Okay, so Councilmember Rallo, I saw
- you with a hand up Yeah, I so
- This is a big rate increase relative to what people are accustomed to Because it's been 25 years without
- without experiencing and so there's a sticker shock Volume might be reduced I suppose of hauling you
- end up with You know the services impacted by the haulers People of low income will probably see you
- know, you've given a choice and
- Your heating bill or letting your septic overflow, you know Which is not good for the environment? so
- given this proposal Is there a way to address this? likely problem of People's segment of the population
- essentially neglecting their septic and
- Is there any drew have you considered any direct help to those people in terms of? Assisting them so
- you're asking if we've considered direct assistance through CBU So relative to this rate, yeah. Yeah,
- certainly so this rate increase
- We have considered the fact that it may result in people putting off pumping out their septic tanks
- and Just a couple thoughts on that one That is at least in Monroe County the health department enforces
- and regulates septic tanks and their cleaning removal all of that and then the other thing I wanted
- to bring up is that at least in
- I believe in Lawrence and Well in the Lake Monroe watershed, there is a voucher program through friends
- of Lake Monroe and Also through the Lake Monroe water fund both of which we contribute to annually and
- they help people cover the expenses of Pumping out their septic tanks regularly to protect the watershed
- Will that be increased with this rate increase? Because that's an existing program
- So I'm talking about this legislation we're gonna vote on tonight is that You know, is there an adequate
- amount to assist people? I mean how many people might be affected and how many people should we be?
- Funding to help So I don't have an exact number of how many people would be affected in that they would
- discontinue pumping their septic tank
- And whether or not there is enough money in those funds that those programs are ran through friends
- of Lake Monroe and the Lake Monroe water fund, so I Don't know how Soon those funds are gone or how
- about those programs go so And just real quick. So the Health Department essentially inspects. Mm-hmm
- Is it complaint driven or is this a you know, how does it come about somebody notices that you know,
- there's You know, how often do people get inspected? I'm not really sure how the health department runs
- their inspection program I would assume there is some aspect of complaint driven and some aspect of
- regular inspections Okay, thanks other first-round councilmember Ruff
- Before I ask my question, I just want to make sure I understand the the increase so What's the what's
- the fee now? It's the rate now. It's going up to eight cents. Mm-hmm for that. What is it now to to
- so it's what About rippling or whatever. It's a 288 percent increase on domestic shortage It's
- my understanding that we
- Most folks on septic are able to have have septic fields drainage fields septic fingers and sort of
- full-blown systems or a mound system that allows Them to be only need maintenance pumping every Couple
- years was described earlier like and that's why the cost was
- You know is going to be it definitely be an increase but it shouldn't be we're not talking about numbers
- that would break the bank for for most folks. So aren't there aren't there folks whose properties who
- are in situations where they can't have an actual field they basically have a septic holding tank that
- they have to get pumped like
- Every few weeks or maybe even more frequently than that certainly monthly maybe more And It seems like
- if that's the case and That would only be the case I would think or that would tend to be the case in
- very environmentally sensitive situations where they just couldn't put They couldn't get approval for
- an actual septic field Because they just don't have the soil
- Set the proper setting the slope whatever. I'm not sure what all the technical limitations might be
- but those are going to be the most prone to I feel like Create an environmental problem and at the same
- time you're creating I would feel like an affordability issue that's really significant for For at least
- some people maybe a significant amount of people I don't know if you're talking about going from you
- know, $100 a month and
- $200 to $400 a month or something, you know to from to if the whole pass if the if it all gets passed
- on from the hauler to the To the consumer to the user if that whole rate from two to eight gets passed
- on if you're talking about that suddenly becomes it seems like it becomes Maybe even undoable for a
- lot of people and you're you're almost certainly going to be
- doing some environmental damage for people who just can't make that work. Am I missing something? Am
- I way off on something here? Or is this a very tiny sliver of the septic world that I'm talking about
- here? Or can you respond?
- I can't comment on what percentage of the septic world relies on pure septic tanks versus a septic system.
- But yes the increase in costs will be substantial and that is really the tragedy of not having done
- this for 25 years. And so you know it's we have an obligation
- Meet our cost of service and even seeing through the crow report what that cost of service was we already
- acknowledged that that was Far too great to just do all at once and so this is approximately half of
- that But we really do need to make sure that we are charging for what we're treating
- And I just had one follow up what's related. It's just related. So you said a minute ago that this isn't
- you want to ease it in. This is easing it in. Are we likely to then to see a similar sized increase
- coming fairly soon. So our next full sewer rate case we will be starting this year to hopefully
- implement in 2027 There we will again take another look at this and look at the actual waste versus
- the EPA So this is based on the EPA's numbers for septic waste and now that we have sampling we should
- be able to know what our waste Looks like so it may not be as drastic all the way up to the 17 Which
- is again why we didn't want to go all the way up Thank you
- Other first strong questions Okay, I have one if I can go back to it and maybe this will approach what
- councilmember Flaherty was interested in too, so You said in your memo that Crowe determined that 17
- and a half cents per gallon would provide the revenue corresponding with the cost of treatment CBU staff
- and billing charges Do you happen to know how many cents per gallon? just
- covers the cost of treatment. I can't remember if you said that as part of your slideshow. I'm going
- to leave this one up to Jennifer Wilson with Crow. Hello Jennifer Wilson with Crow. I'm looking back
- through the report and most of it is having to do with the treatment charge of actually treating the
- flow at the plant.
- So we came up with 17.2 cents per 100 gallons as being the treatment charge. So there's very minor billing
- charge because you're billing all your customers. So when we allocated that cost, it's billing charge
- divided by all your customers bills. So that's a very minor portion of it. So most of it is the treatment.
- Okay. But that is
- Estimated on the EPA septage report not estimated on the actual Deliveries that we're getting correct
- We allocated the costs and then the divided by the amount of pounds and then it's also then based upon
- the EPA Estimate of the strength of the of the pounds that you're actually receiving. Okay, but the
- proposed eight cents a gallon like corresponds to
- pretty well with what other facilities in southern Indiana are charging. Right. I believe Stephen did
- that told you a little bit about the communities. My quick look beforehand I believe Columbus charges
- six cents and let me see here. Tara Hope charges 10 cents in Indianapolis charges five point six cents.
- So it's very comparable to what other communities are charging.
- Okay I Think that any of my other questions would would go into a round two so round two questions
- Councilmember Rallo wait, I'm sorry court councilmember daily. Do you have a round one question? Yeah,
- sorry. I haven't fully formulated it in my head. So forgive me while I'm babbling but I guess I'm starting to
- kind of wonder hearing those ranges that that's quite a range five point six all the way up to ten and
- yeah eight is kind of central but I guess that makes me wonder then what is it sounds a little bit silly
- if I put it as well what's the rush to get this rate increase you know jumping right up to eight I get
- it because it's been 25 years so it's a long time we do want to try to make up for lost ground but on
- the other hand
- It's been 25 years, what's the rush to jump up almost 300%. Is there a way, or was it considered maybe
- a bit of a slower increase so it doesn't feel like such a shock to our lower income septic users? Okay,
- very well.
- So when we received the initial study from Crowe, obviously we identified that that was going to definitely
- cause rate shock. So we felt that going to at least half and being comparable to other municipalities
- and treatment sorry wastewater treatment plants in our region felt like a good place to start.
- and we felt confident that that would Be a Be a reasonable place to start if we wanted to further assess
- using our own wastewater now that we are able to have samples which is Like Stephen had said before
- a relatively new program. So this is not something we had access to before The sampling program
- Raving samples moving on to round two then councilmember. Sorry Which one of you wants to go
- first councilmember Rallo, okay, I'll take it I'm older So So the representative from Crow could I ask
- a question I've forgotten your name. I'm sorry so read through your report very thorough appreciate it and
- You recommend for full-cost accounting 2 cents to 17 cents To prevent rate shock. We're gonna go 2 cents
- to 8 cents In your experience do you have have you seen rate increases to that degree? Because you've
- probably done a lot of these and recommended rate increases, but is this This is an outlier. Is this
- have you seen this before?
- So as he kind of explained, this isn't a normal type of study that's done regularly. I've probably done
- three or four of them. So no, it's not done on a regular basis. Last time you guys did it was in 2000.
- So if you maintained it and are able to do it more regularly with your normal sewer cost of service
- study, you'll get a better idea of how, and use your actual cost components of your strength
- I think you'll have a better idea to do it. I'm just there's not a whole lot of communities that do
- this and So you're kind of an outlier to actually have a septic charge Okay, let me there aren't too
- many communities that Make such a rate increase in degree. Is that what you're saying? No, I'm saying
- that except hauling from outside So this is so we were sort of an exception Got it. Okay, so there's
- there's hardly any comparators then in that case
- Very few Does okay Does terraho does Indianapolis do they accept outside hauling? They do my quick search
- showed what that rate would be is well, actually, sorry I take that back. I'm not haven't really looked
- into whether or not they accept outside hauling Okay, that's just their rate. Okay. That's just the
- right. All right Okay. Thank you Councilmember, sorry
- No one to ask questions to. How much knowledge do we have of, and I guess this is something that hopefully
- people will say in public comment, I mean we're acting like it's a one to one ratio.
- what we charge versus what a holler charges a customer. So what's the model? Because there was a comment
- earlier about how we charge also being a question. And so sort of two questions here is that we've said
- The the expected increase to a customer is 19, you know, roughly $19 a year or something like that But
- it probably will be more presumably because the haulers also need to make money But then the second
- question then is what have we explored other not explored but are there other mechanisms that we can
- either pursue to lower cost or to
- or the ways that we charge. So is charging per gallon the only method of charging for waste? So I'm
- actually really glad you asked that question because the way that we charge for septage does impact
- how haulers need to charge their customers. And so the way that we currently, the way that we've proposed
- is to do it by tank,
- Tank size and we have heard feedback that not all the tanks are full Sometimes when they come they're
- not full. It doesn't make sense to be full And so what we are now looking into after having received
- said feedback is how we can Institute some sort of system
- Dillman that would have a flow meter and Potentially some kind of grinder pump so that we would be able
- to accurately charge for the actual gallons Versus tank size and that's something we are exploring currently
- Yes, and then and then that minor question on the the cost to consumer that we estimated at 19 and
- earlier, it's presumably higher than that directly to the consumer, right? Oh, yeah. So what we presented
- before is just our charge to the haulers. Of course, I don't own these businesses. So I am not the person
- who decides what their rates are, how they charge them, how they arrive to their rates. I would assume
- it's a combination of things like mobilization and gas and wear and tear on vehicles and labor.
- My assumption is that while we're our charge to septic collars is going up 288 percent I'm I would be
- hopeful that it would not directly be 288 percent to the customer because Hopefully those other charges
- aren't also going like those other costs wouldn't go up with just the cost of septic Charges does that
- make sense? Thank you so much
- Thank you. Are there other second-round questions comes member Flaherty Yes, thank you. I believe you
- mentioned There's a legal obligation that the rate be cost-based that is based on a cost-of-service
- study That was done to assess what it actually costs. Is that correct? Yes, and is is this are the the
- dumping rates for septage and
- regulated by the Indiana Utility Regulatory Commission as well, or is that exclusively by us, outside
- the IURC purview? That's outside of the IURC. Okay. So, granted, we're using the EPA estimate of strength.
- Sounds like in the future we'll have better sampling for at least an average of what strength is of
- septage in our area. That's great. I'm glad to hear that.
- Nevertheless, we have a ballpark of 17 cents or so of what it actually costs. We're charging eight I
- understand the rationale there as well as the interest in truing up over time and so I guess a two-part
- question is There must be some Case law or other legal guidance that allows a phase-in period when you
- realize you your your current rate structures are not cost-based and
- because arguably the eight cents would not be complying with the legal requirement that we actually
- have cost-based regulation. So there's that. And then actually maybe I'll just pause on part two because
- it's too much to unpack otherwise. But yeah. I'll let Chris Wheeler take part one about legal obligations.
- Yeah. So there is a dance that's done there. We are obligated to know what our cost of service that's
- provided, what that cost of service is,
- And we are required to then charge a rate that brings us back to even. We need to charge a rate that
- covers the cost of those services. But there's also an acknowledgement with this whole concept of rate
- shock. And in this situation, there's plenty of precedent that suggests that you do a step up. You don't
- just go all the way to the top when you're looking at this and you believe there's a rate shock that
- could occur.
- And so I think that the utility did a great job of trying to find what that average Is and trying to
- fit into the average with with a lot of the other utilities around the state? Okay. Thank you. And then
- part two, I think So so utilities are They have to balance their revenues and costs, right? These are
- costs were incurring and have been incurring and
- I think this goes a little bit to what my colleague has over daily was asking like why so much why can
- we slow it down a little bit? But I would assume the answer is because other people are paying for it
- right now It's cost shifting and so I assume Bloomington residents through some Rate or another whether
- it's wastewater or otherwise are paying for the Delta the gap in between what we're charging right now
- would actually costs to process the septic waste and so
- how does that work when we have shortfalls in what the cost of service actually is, you know, vis-a-vis
- the revenue, where do the funds come from to make up that gap? Yeah, the other classes or the other
- rates are essentially subsidizing the fact that we have such a nice, nice to the customers, a nice low
- rate going right now for the sludge and halt septic
- There's a subsidy that's crossing over from our other rates It showed and we need to eliminate them.
- And so it shows up essentially in the form of a artificially high or inflated cost of wastewater treatment
- for let's say City Bloomington utilities customers or is that probably where it's showing up? I
- Yes, so if it's not coming for if the cost of service is not coming from this customer class then inherently
- it would be coming from other customer classes granted I do think it's worth mentioning that we have
- a lot more direct service customers than we do septic haulers and so That may I mean again, I cannot
- explain why this hasn't happened in 25 years But that may explain part of why this has gone
- undone unnoticed because the larger rate case for The sewer rates have covered it. Thank you Thank you
- other second round questions comes member rough This just follows up on the earlier questions So it
- appears that So there's a lot there's the state law requires us to to pursue
- Fees and rates that equal or that pay for the cost of services and I totally support that I totally
- get it 100% however How urgent is it to? Quickly comply with that. I mean obviously it hasn't been an
- issue for a long time as you said for 25 years there wasn't an urgency to comply with the state mandate
- to cover your cost of services with your with your fees for for that service and
- Is it is it more urgent now to come into compliance with that because of some state law or not? No,
- I don't Yeah, there's there's no I'm sorry. There's no new urgency. There's no there's no difference
- going on. There's no new mandate It's just that it's been so long that This particular rate is so out
- of skew with the actual cost to provide this service is being defrayed sure and
- by all of the other rates that we have, it's being covered and subsidized by all of the other rate payers,
- but it's so out of skew that it does need to be corrected. It just so happens that it's falling right
- now that we're trying to correct it. We're just bringing it to council now. So to follow up with that
- point, I know it's spread over a much larger, the cost right now is being spread over a much larger base.
- Payers, so it wouldn't be much But are we going to see a commensurate drop in The rates for the rest
- those payers that now are gonna not be subsidizing with their rates These others are we going to see
- a drop for everyone else even if it's a small one This might be a great question for Jennifer to feel
- yeah. I'll let Jennifer take this one. I
- They alluded to it's being spread across a large number of customers So we would have to do an analysis
- to see if this would even affect the rates by a penny or so because what ends up happening is you take
- the revenue requirements of the sewage works and you subtract out any other income that you're getting
- which this would be included as and then you get that net difference and you divide that by the actual
- consumption so
- You know by increasing this charge the next time rates are looked at you get to increase that amount
- That's offsetting the the revenue requirements of the utility when that study is being done But you
- just You're saying though that it would very likely be you said not maybe not even a penny It'd be a
- very be a very small amount my expectation I have not crunched the numbers, but we're talking about
- amount of septic Charges versus what you're gathering from all your customers. So my penny is just totally
- off You know just pulling it out of the air, but I'd need to do that calculation But I would not expect
- it to have a large impact to the rates Thank you. Thank you very much Other second round questions All
- right seeing none I think I'd like to go to public comment on
- Go back and find my number. Ordinance 2025-44 as amended. I already see people in chambers have figured
- out what to do. If you're in chambers, go ahead and make your way to the podium, sign in, and then state
- your name for the record. And you'll have up to three minutes. If you're online, you can go ahead and
- raise your hand using the Reactions tab or send a chat message to the host. But we will start here in
- chambers. Go ahead whenever you're ready.
- Again I'm Jeff Todd with Todd septic here in Bloomington and just a quick amount of background my dad
- Larry Todd started the company in 1979 I took over in 2010 he's now since past but we've served the
- community of Monroe County ever since then for a long time.
- Really have two concerns about this and I do want to say I understand the cbu's need for raising rates
- It makes sense. It hasn't been done in 25 years. Really. That's what's caused the problem here So it
- has to be done But even though this is a tiered approach it's still a 300% Nearly increase all at once
- which is a big jump for for everyone involved I mean if any of your other utilities went up 300%
- I think you probably have an issue with that That's kind of my number one concern and then number two
- Are the holding tank customers? because they are going to bear the brunt of this rate change and There
- are hundreds if not thousands of holding tanks in Monroe County all around the north side of the lake
- in the watershed and
- Private campgrounds. There are several of them. Some of those community members are here tonight Boys
- and Girls Club Camp Rock Smithville Little League there are a lot of places that have holding tanks
- and I Pumped them out as frequently as once a week, you know up to maybe every two months and Just taking
- Smithville Little League for instance during their season. I haul 4,000 gallons out of their tank every
- week so that's gonna be
- a rate increase that I'm not sure what they'll do truthfully. And even if I just charge them my disposal
- costs, it's still going to be massive. The campgrounds around Monroe County that bring in a lot of money
- to the community and support local businesses, they're all going to be affected. You know, Night Ridge,
- Pine Grove, Whispering Wilderness, Jamie Lou, Sharwood, Fern Hills, Monroe Causeway Campground, Two
- Herons Marina.
- These are all some facilities that are on holding tanks and then just to Kind of backtrack on why that
- is back in the 70s and 80s the Health Department required People in the watershed to install holding
- tanks because they thought that was better for the environment They've kind of gone back and forth on
- whether that's true or not but nevertheless these people are stuck with those tanks and you know to
- in some cases they couldn't be replaced with a septic system or
- Or they might incur a 20 to 30 thousand dollar cost to put in a septic system so that's my biggest concern
- or those customers of mine that that are on holding tanks because they're going to be affected greatly
- and If there was maybe some way to have a separate rate for them because the wastewater that we haul
- out of theirs is so frequent it it doesn't
- Digest and build up as much solids as a traditional septic tank So it's more on the line with sewage
- or what you're coming down the pipeline from the city sewer So if there was some way to have maybe a
- separate rate for them to maybe alleviate that stress. So Thank you What It's are their hands raised
- on zoom Okay, let's go ahead and do this person in chambers. Thank you for signing in and then we'll
- move to our first comment or on zoom Okay
- Please state your name for the record and you're Malcolm Webb and I'm speaking as an end user of the
- service that's being discussed. I have a home that has holding tanks and I'm somewhat relieved to to
- hear the discussion going on and understand what's behind this because at first glance a 300 percent
- increase Felt like
- to me, sort of the municipal equivalent of when my older brothers used to say, Malcolm, we've had enough
- crap out of you. And so, I'm glad to know it's more than that. And I appreciate the hard work that everyone
- is doing on the issue. Most of the concerns that I have have been raised, the potential environmental
- impact if lower income users,
- have difficulty adjusting to this and and I'd just like to put put a word in for suggestion that if
- you can find a way to Implement the rate increase More slowly so that people have a chance to adjust
- to it. I'd suggest you do so. Thank you Thank you, let's go ahead and go to our first online commenter
- when you're unmuted you can go ahead and state your name for the record and you'll have up to three
- minutes and
- Hi, this is Chris Berg. I'm a local resident. I am a customer of Todd's Septic. And I'd say he probably
- articulated everything perfectly. And I appreciate all the common sense questions at the panel that
- the committee has asked Mr. Rollo and Mr. Ruff asking about the holding tanks. I own two commercial
- campgrounds in town.
- My wife is an educator in town. My kids both, all three go to school here in Bloomington. We're taxpayers.
- We are extremely concerned about the hike in the fees, mostly because I'm gonna have to pass this on
- to my customers and they bring a lot to the economy to Bloomington and they're not gonna be happy about
- it. And I'm concerned about our lower income.
- residents as well and what they may have to the choices they may have to make when it comes to either
- pay their lot bill or or do something with their septic but more specifically about ours are holding
- tanks and I'm I have 13 holding tanks so I'm going to be impacted by thousands of dollars because Todd
- Todd septic pumps me out on occasion most of the time once a week and sometimes every other week but
- you know the like
- What Jeff had said was most of our tanks are just liquid and not sludge as the the common resident is
- mostly sludge because they go years because it goes typically into a septic field or something like
- that. So ours is all septic tanks are not created equal or holding tanks are are a lot different than
- than regular mound systems and such. But
- I appreciate the way that Jeff articulated and what the panel's doing to make common sense questions.
- I don't think the hike should be as much, although I do think it needs to be hiked up, but going all
- the way up to eight cents doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You know, somewhere in between that, so
- it's not such a sticker shock would be much appreciated. Thanks for your time. Thank you. Is there another
- hand raised on Zoom?
- Okay, great. Let's go ahead and go here in chambers. Come on forward Make sure to sign in and state
- your name for the record and then you'll have up to three minutes Good evening, my name is Jerry Jackson
- I represent whispering wilderness campground one of the private campgrounds around the lake that Jeff
- Todd talked about He's the guy that actually comes and pumps all our tanks. We have approximately
- 30 tanks and as it's already been said Most of our a lot of the pumps out of ours is going to be nothing
- but water Because you get people in there on the weekend Friday Saturday night. They go out on the lake
- all day Everybody comes in everybody showers. We catch all that we catch all the sink water all the
- shower water So you don't have a great there's not a great deal of solid sludge in any of our pumps
- you're dealing with a whole lot more water, so it's
- It's not a one-size-fits-all thing. Our situation is 100% different than, say, a normal septic system
- at home. So you can't even compare the two. And it's going to substantially cost a lot more money because
- we pump everything out on a weekly basis. So another thing I wanted to mention, the $0.17. Well, I call
- it that that was skewed by two
- Right. Carmel Indiana I think is what I heard. I can't I'm not really sure. But other than that other
- than to out of all the places that treat this sewage everybody else is way down. So the 17 cent figure
- is like to me not even shouldn't even be in the ballpark. You're talking about one place does five cents
- another place does six cents and they're and they're they're fine. They're they're no problems there.
- So the 17 cent thing I don't really appreciate that being brought in and one of one of you guys I forget
- which one asked you guys one of you asked a question that made them say well It was kind of skewed,
- you know So other than that they would have never mentioned that we would have all been looking at 17
- cents Which is actually false. At least that's way I'm taking it so with that being said
- This isn't a one-size-fits-all situation by any means. So a price hike like this is really going to
- affect a whole lot of campgrounds and everything that I don't think that's been thought about Including
- state campgrounds, right pain town all those they're involved in this too They have they have situations
- where they have to be pumped out as well. So private and public
- So that's really all I have to add. But and I think 300 percent on any utility raise whether no matter
- what it is imagine if they wanted to raise your electric 300 percent. I don't think anybody in this
- room would like that. So 300 percent huge. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Let's go ahead to show
- the next person chambers please sign in state your name for the record and you'll have up to three minutes.
- Hello, my name is Jay Pippen. I own Owen septic. We to also service the Monroe County and surrounding
- counties a couple things I just took notes I had a Pre pre done speech, but I want to thank you guys
- for addressing the out-of-county stuff because that is a big concern a couple things Crow I think when
- you were up you mentioned that your costs were 17 cents per hundred gallons and
- So I need clarification on that. Is it 17 cents per gallon or 17 cents per hundred gallons? Because
- that's a big this isn't this isn't necessarily a time that we go back and forth Okay, your question
- is noted for the record scratch that. Okay. I also wanted to address How we are billed because it goes
- into this whole in County out of County we buy tickets ahead of time so we pay
- CBU up front for our tickets so I buy for instance a four thousand gallon out-of-county ticket and I
- run with that with the rates that have been presented in the past I Don't quibble whether I I pumped
- somebody in Bloomington and I have a mixed load The rates are fair if we go to a out-of-county and we're
- mixing loads then that becomes a bigger issue because I'm paying up front for that out-of-county ticket and
- So we buy our tickets ahead of time. Another point was brought up about costs and increasing costs and
- how we go about charging our costs. You can rest assured that our other costs in addition to our pump
- dumping costs have gone up as well. So when we're going to pass on prices to our customers, we're considering
- the CBU dump costs in addition to everything else that we've got going on.
- And then the last question I have is from a percentage of sewage. What do the haulers represent at CBU?
- From what I understand, it's less than 1% of the flow that goes through CBU. So does this even move
- the needle? Those are my questions. Thank you. Thank you. Has anybody raised a hand on Zoom
- in the intermediary time? And I can't believe anybody or nobody has said this, but go IU.
- Let's go ahead to the next person in chambers go ahead and sign in and state your name for the record
- and you'll have up to three minutes Hi, my name is Maggie Sullivan, I work for friends of Lake Monroe
- I want to start by saying I'm very excited at the number of times people have said watershed tonight.
- That makes me very happy I'm also very happy with the tenor of the conversation. This is a really difficult
- situation and I appreciate so many people coming out and
- with big concerns who are very graciously expressing them. Obviously, there seems like there needs to
- be a rate increase after 25 years, but the sticker shock does seem real. At Friends of Lake Monroe,
- one of our big concerns is marinas around the lake that offer bathrooms to encourage people to use them
- rather than peeing in the lake, and a lot of them
- In the holding tank situation where they're gonna see pretty dramatic rate increases We would hate to
- see that encourage them to shut off their bathroom access just because of the cost involved
- So I don't know the feasibility of having a different rate structure that could address that in some
- way. Also, someone brought up our program that we've done off and on where we help subsidize the cost
- of septic tank pumping. We're currently doing that in Jackson County and in Brown County, not in Monroe.
- Their pumping costs tend to be a little higher.
- Partly because they're further away and partly because they're not hauling to Bloomington. They're hauling
- to other plants that are more expensive So if we run a program again in Monroe County, we would adjust
- our reimbursement rates based on whatever the new costs would be So that's something that we're happy
- to work with Thank you Thank you Has anybody raised a hand on zoom? Okay, is there anybody else in chambers?
- Go ahead sign in and state your name for the record yelp up to three minutes. I
- I am Courtney Medley and I own Medley septic service and first I just want to be clear the septic haulers
- are not Disputing the need for some sort of rate increase. We completely understand cost rise But what
- most don't realize is the system the city uses to charge the septic haulers is already flawed and this
- increase will make those problems even worse We are disputing the size of the increase plus continued
- increases planned over the next few years and the impact this will have on the families businesses and
- our environment in the current economy
- When families can't afford regular pumping, especially those withholding tanks, they will delay service
- Some will let tanks overflow Some may get some pumps and pump them out in the middle of the night And
- by the time the county realizes this our lakes streams groundwater environment is already contaminated
- This potentially is our drinking water. We're talking about
- New homeowners are told by the county they can be on a pump and haul contract until a field system is
- installed They could face pacing, you know a mortgage payment plus essentially a second mortgage payment
- To have their house their their waste hauled away Do they become unhoused until they can get a field
- in an average household could need that pumped once a week? Local restaurants are already on strict
- pumping schedules and many pump quarterly or even monthly will this increase?
- Make them struggle to stay in business local events that rely on porta pots will face higher costs of
- rental because disposal fees will Increase will they have the revenue to still hold these events our
- septic waste goes into the same lagoon as the city sewer So it's treated the same way yet city sewer
- customers are paying less than one cent and we are going to be paying eight cents just for you know,
- the in-county tanks and
- Per CBU four billion gallons were treated last year yet. Only five million of those gallons were hauled
- septic haulers So that's not even 1% of the waste treated So why are we being asked to shoulder so much
- of that cost? And with the crow study for my emails with CBU the gallons for this study were estimated
- on what we purchased for our dump tickets meaning our truck size Not actual measured gallons dumped.
- So the numbers for this study are potentially already skewed
- We are not charged by actual gallons dumped. We are charged based on the full size of our truck whether
- it is full or not This means we've been paying CBU for gallons. We've never dumped for years We buy
- tickets or gallons before we even pump a tank So with this increase if I need 40 tickets, my cost will
- be eight thousand dollars up front before I even pump a tank
- And that's a hundred thousand gallons when I will only really be dumping eighty thousand gallons because
- I can only get two residentials on my tank. That's sixteen hundred dollars worth of unused gallons that
- I'm giving to CBU already. So these are real everyday consequences. I don't believe the full trickle
- down effect has been considered when we are discussing how to cover the treatment deficit and I think
- those are things we really need to think about. Thank you.
- Thank you has anybody raised a hand on zoom If you just want to give me a wave if somebody does that
- would be great Next in chambers go ahead and step up and sign in and then state your name for the record.
- You know up to three minutes Good evening, my name is Steve. I'm with the owner affordable septic There's
- really not a whole lot more and I can add to what everybody's already said I
- I guess the one thing I would bring to light is there is concern about people were talking about how
- septics, how often they're pumped and et cetera. I can tell you according to my side of the business,
- which is pumping septics and et cetera, tanks are failing a lot faster now than they have been in the
- last four to five years.
- So tanks are being pumped a lot more often. I have multiple customers who are pumping them once a year
- Just because their systems are are just not able to handle it And that that is growing significantly
- As far as I think there was a question raised about how the county inspects or checks on systems
- As far as my knowledge, there is no inspection that they go out and just randomly pick John Doe and
- say, hey, how's your system? I believe that is not the case. Most of the time that I've found out anything
- like that it was is a neighbor called in due to a problem that something has come to the surface or
- the customer or the resident
- Has called the county and said hey, I have something coming out of the ground or something like that
- So there is no real Going around and testing systems And I can vouch to say there's a lot a Lot of systems
- that are failing Just point-blank. So this is going to really be a huge problem and
- Because there's a lot of people that that have heard about this and have made phone calls to me and
- they're like I Can't do this. What am I going to do? and I have no answer for him, of course, so Because
- I don't know how this is going to come about so we're hoping that I think along with the other haulers
- here that 20 years is a long time to just now come around to this and
- If I could be a little bold, if I ran my business like that, people would probably tell me I need to
- be out of business. So at this point in the game, I kind of feel like maybe if we could take a little
- look at this thing and maybe back it up just a little bit, ease it into it, it would be well appreciated.
- Thank you for your time. Thank you. Is there anybody else in chambers who would like to make a comment
- about ordinance 2025 44 as amended?
- Seeing nobody and nobody else on zoom that returns it to council any questions that have come up for
- councilmembers after public comment Councilmember Flaherty Yeah, thank you. Thanks so much for the comments
- One clear question that emerged builds on what councilmember rough was already bringing up which is
- the what sounds like a dramatic difference between holding tanks versus septic systems that use it use
- some type of processing and therefore concentrate the solids over time and
- Mike Mike what I'm what I'm inferring from that is that the EPA? Number is maybe not a very good It's
- not reflective like the distribution of what the strength of the waste and therefore what the actual
- cost of processing it would be Might vary dramatically and be something like a double bell curve with
- a big gap in the middle between the two bells and
- A, is that accurate? And then B, is it possible and was it considered to have different rates for those
- two scenarios? I don't know if there's a way to actually assess at dumping site, at the time of dumping,
- what category we're in? Are we emptying a holding tank that is very similar in profile to standard wastewater
- on our system versus highly concentrated waste?
- Yes, so I will start by saying that I Did have a good awareness of the fact that there are septic lots
- of septic holding tanks out there but the extent to which septic holding tanks are Used by members of
- our community I really appreciate all the public commentary that has talked about that and talked about
- the impacts at this rate would have on
- septic holding tanks we would absolutely be open to a Separate rate. I mean right now we have a whole
- table Like I said, we have a whole complicated table of rates where it's essentially self-reporting
- in County out of County Grease not grease whatever else is on that table but so we would be open to
- a separate rate for
- holding tanks because we do acknowledge that the pollutant loading is not the same as concentrated septic
- system waste. And so we were talking about how, and hopefully this is still answering your question,
- we were talking about how septic waste is 1% of the total waste water that's treated at Dillman, yet
- it's less than 1% of the total waste.
- Less than 1% of the total wastewater that's treated at Dilman But you know could be up to 6% of the
- pollutant loading assuming again these EPA pollutant loading measures, so Yeah It seems to me just a
- brief follow-up you're open to different rates it seems like that would require us to postpone a final
- action on this in order to
- take that up. And I guess it doesn't seem necessarily like the type of thing that we could solve in
- two weeks if it includes some revisiting assumptions around cost of service, for instance, and the respective
- volumes of different types of waste. Is that fair?
- It's fair to say that this is something that if you brought it back in two weeks, it would be rushed.
- Yes Okay. Thank you Other questions councilmember Rallo Yes, yeah an excellent question about the Holler
- volume of septage relative to the total So it's system waste is it is it about 1% or less I
- Less than one percent. Okay Thank you Councilmember, sorry, I Think based on the question and insightful
- comment of our colleague I wonder the whether we should continue to ask questions because I would be
- very open to
- postponing I do have some questions that might help with design of future implementation here, but but
- I'd be I'd be on in favor of of postponing so that we can Continue to shape and design this as much
- as you know, I hate to do that at 10 o'clock at night Is that a question or a motion? No sure Happy
- to move that but then we have to debate it point of order before we make a motion Move debate
- I think it's instructive to have a little bit of comment here agreed so that we can Yeah, and that's
- this goes in the future And so that was that was my I was trying to phrase it as a question to all of
- you because I also have other questions I'd like to ask but whether it's worth asking them now and having
- further debate or whether the appetite is, you know for us to to postpone and then perhaps we could
- have our counsel attorney advise us in terms of whether it should be Postponed tabled or just voted
- down. Yeah, sure and then reintroduce the
- Well, in which case, can I ask my question, then, if that's the feeling? Sure. So the second thing that
- was brought up is the way that they're billed. And so I think I'm interested in what are capabilities.
- Why are we billing the way that we're billing? And do we have other capabilities to bill in different
- ways? And then there's this one question brought up of, because they're paying ahead of time, so in
- the case that we're not able to bill in a different way,
- They're paying ahead of time, but then sometimes left with paid for things that they're not bringing
- in essentially, right? So is there some way of doing like a credit or something like that? If we're
- not able to change the way that we build but ideally how we built would change, right? Yes, how we build
- would change and we've definitely identified the way that we bill is I would just say outdated so ideally
- we would be able to bill with RFID and
- So like I was explaining before, this is the ideal.
- Endpoint is that we would have we would issue cards to septic haulers They would be able to use those
- to gain access to the plant and then they would also be able to use those same cards For a flow meter
- that would precisely measure what they're pumping out But we are not there yet and we are currently
- just selling tickets And how close are we to being able to implement something like that? And I think
- a similar the same question asked which is if we were to
- to make changes to viewing different type of waste? Or for example, it comes from one type of tank versus
- another. Do we have the technical capability to do either of those? And how close are we to being able
- to do it? I think we would need to definitely do some workshopping on how to, outside of just, I mean,
- we've been taking people's word.
- And so outside of that, we would need to implement a sampling system that would require, right now it's
- a drop-off system where we hold these samples in case something happens, essentially. But what we would
- need to do to identify waste, as far as utilizing technology and having these separate rates for pollutant
- loading, we would,
- Have to have more resources and staff to be doing these samples more frequently and be running the samples
- more frequently So I would say that would that aspect of it would require more workshopping The aspect
- of it for RF a t RF ID cards and for a flow meter system I would say we're about 50% there. We have
- pretty much the card and gate system ready to go We're just trying to make sure that we can get that
- flow meter
- System that would be compatible with it. Okay, and that's already budgeted for or is that wouldn't Yes,
- that would fit within our budget wonderful. Thank you Any other questions I I guess I kind of have a
- question So this kind of goes to the concept of postponing for two weeks to see you know whether like
- You said it would be rushed but maybe it could be something I think that everybody who I've heard from
- tonight kind of agrees like yeah rates should increase because we have not done this in twenty five
- years and so maybe finding a compromise in the next two weeks might be possible.
- But my other question is that you identified some comparison cities and their rates, but what do they
- do about the idea of a holding tank versus the sludge? What kind of process do these other places use?
- Because it seems to me like it's a really huge difference between
- holding tank and more of a septic system in terms of the quality of waste that's being disposed of and
- how much treatment is necessary and how much time that takes and chemicals and all of those things and
- so like I mean is there a model that other organizations are using do you know of not that I am aware
- of currently and I just took the first part of your question where your your
- Thinking about you know postponing two weeks and if that would be rushed and if we could find a compromise
- I do also want to note that the ordinance that we've brought today was upon recommendation of our utility
- service board and so any substantial changes I would want to
- Bring to the utility service board before bringing back. So I think two weeks postponing two weeks.
- I Don't know how feasible that is Not to rush it but just to because again, it's been 25 years Okay
- Any other questions a small related one it was a question of mine I've had to
- As you all know, I'm our Representative on the utility service board. I also have it depending on the
- month. We have conflicts with Transportation Commission So I've missed two meetings in the last four.
- I have a feeling I missed this Specifically because I wasn't there for the discussion and I was going
- to ask So the utility service board did recommend what's before us now and was could you recall was
- that unanimous was there much dissent or was it a close vote and
- It was unanimous You know the the boards it's a matter of prayer. It was unanimous. It is a matter of
- priorities the utility service board has The financial interests of the utility as their you know driving
- force I think City Council has a broader Responsibility and so That's why we're here today. Thank you
- Other questions or a motion Councilmember Rallo, are we going to have comment period because I think
- I'd like to hear from my colleagues. I have a few comments Yeah, let's go ahead and go for commentary
- if there's no motion out there to do anything different. Okay Should I begin? Yes, okay. I want to give
- credit to the CBU and director Sager for addressing a topic that's been
- Long overlooked and it's not an easy thing to do. And so I really appreciate it. My concern is of course
- fairness for rate payers and full-cost accounting I appreciate the work from Crow Read it thoroughly.
- I've no dispute with that So my concern is fairness for rate payers. So I'm I I have sympathy for raising
- rates to be to be fair to them and
- But my sense is that the rate change at this time has a potential for unintended consequences and I
- don't know exactly what those are and so I'm loathe to just Go forward with this without knowing that
- I heard a lot of excellent questions and comments for those in attendance tonight I want to appreciate
- I want to extend my appreciation for sticking it out and staying for late night I'm pleased to hear about the
- Addressing potentially holding tanks as a separate animal Solids versus liquid and maybe a differential
- rate relative to that. I'm concerned about the effect in business. I'm concerned about customers I'm
- concerned about low-income residents. And so I would like to see a more gradual phasing If we've waited
- 25 years and we're trying to achieve eight cents, which would be competitive to our peers around, you
- know in the area and
- Could we could we do it in a very gradual way? Stepways so that we could determine allow us to understand
- what the effects would be so we could You know make an incremental raise and then wait a while and see
- what happens in terms of says are people adapting That to me. I mean because I can't anticipate what
- would happen and I would hate to see Neglect of septic tanks and I know that in this area with a lot
- of clay is
- You have a lot of failing systems and it's just the nature, you know of it an expensive Proposition
- to put in a septic field because you sometimes have to build a hill to put it in and this isn't like
- Northern Michigan where there's sand everywhere. This is clay and bedrock. So That's my comment I I
- think this is gonna take a while I'd like to see it done right so and put before the CBO and
- Have their say as well. So that's where I'm at. Thanks Thank you. Are there other councilmember comments?
- I'm sorry Thank You Councilman Barallo and my colleagues and all of you for one staying here this late,
- you know and going through all of the Yeah
- boringness of our meetings. I mean, congratulations. I'd like to pull on one thread that I think we
- haven't brought up and I think is going to be important. I share Councilmember Morello's view that I
- think it's right in this case for us to
- do this correctly, but I think that the core problem is not the rate as much as it is the one size fits
- all approach as one of the commenters said, and so figuring out a way to properly distinguish between
- the different types of septage and sewage I think is gonna be like the key policy tool that's necessary
- to guard against
- the externalities, the side effects here. And so that's what I'm quite interested in doing. I do think,
- however, that we should be careful with coming to a conclusion that's something like
- we need to further phase this in because I think we need, well, let me say it this way. We need to be
- clear about what that actually means. Every moment, every day that goes by that we keep rates the way
- that they are is days that we as a city
- Oh, they're vacuuming. It's not over yet, folks. But the days that we as a city are subsidizing this
- activity, which is to the tune of millions of dollars that we could be spending on other things. And
- that's a choice. That may be a choice that we want to make. And we may choose that we want to because
- of environmental things, because of people's behavior, because of equity.
- We might choose to subsidize that but we need to I think be very clear about that that it's not just
- You know a direct, you know, I'm worried about the shock value of this. It's you know at some point
- Taxpayers are paying for this regardless. And so, you know is it is it are we more happy to do this
- or for example Pave more of our roads. I think is a question that we ought to be asking and and that's
- I know I get it It's a fallacy. It's a false. It's a false thing, but it is money. It's coming from
- the same pot So we have it where there's a choice to make here about how we're subsidizing Certain services
- to to the city. So thank you Other councilmember comment
- Yeah, I also want to thank you CBU for tackling this the staff and everyone involved for for facing
- up to this after how this year's five years and and and and coming forward with this So that's greatly
- appreciated but It seems to me that after all this discussion
- The issue certainly isn't the subsidy If if it's if it comes out to a penny or two of what the regular
- rate payer is paying I think most Bloomingtonians and most Murrow counties would say would you pay another
- penny or two on your on your utility bill in order to keep sewage from flowing overflowing from failing
- septics or
- into streams and lakes and and backing up in people's houses and and I think most people would do that
- so It seems to me. It's more the principle right the principle of of of who's paying and who's Covering
- the cost of what the service is and also the state law, you know state requirement to pursue Cost of
- paying fees that cover costs of services And so given given that
- Think as long as it's gonna take it's it's fine to take as long as this takes to really get this right
- to deal with this some of the problems that are brought up that some of the improvements and things
- we could do differently in terms of rates and fees and and and how to how the charges are are done and
- Just figuring out a way to distinguish between holding tank Because their impacts are a lot less versus
- full blown septic system
- as long as it takes I'm just I'm just in no hurry on this at all and Because again if if if the if there's
- not really even going to be a guaranteed reversion to the other taxpayers Of the other ratepayers who
- are doing the subsidizing because it's going to be such a small amount spread over everybody that seems
- to me that it means that
- The subsidy that people are providing the others users writing is tiny. It's infinitesimal. It's enough
- that people would say yeah, I want to have clean Environment and it's worth the media to be paying to
- cover some of what would otherwise might lead to a problem if we do this large of a rate increase and
- then finally I want to say You know, we've we've built an expectation maybe inadvertently but by not
- By allowed by have charging two cents or have a long span for so long We've sort of built a reasonable
- expectation amongst property and business owners that this is what the cost is and They're making business
- decisions and home investment decisions based on the assumption that You know, it may go up some yeah,
- sure things go up things cost more but nobody
- reasonably I don't think expected this this amount this fast right so I think given that we've created
- inadvertently a reasonable expectation of what and and people have taken actions and invent made investments
- and Based on how things have been I think we really need to incrementally increase this I
- So I'm glad this has been a great discussion. Thanks for everybody. Thanks for presenters utilities
- administration thanks for everybody's comments and input we've heard from the public and affected directly
- affected haulers and stakeholders and great comments and questions and thoughts from council members
- and kind of council colleagues, it's been really I think productive and
- and So if we I'm gonna certainly vote to postpone if it comes for a vote I would have to vote no if
- it's not a postponement or a tabling We had a wave from our counsel attorney attorney liner Did you
- want me to speak for a minute about the effect of postponing? a question and definitely versus voting
- to reject a question and
- Maybe if there's a motion to do that postponement Maybe after council comment, that's fine. Yeah, is
- there any other council comment councilmember Piedmont Smith? I've been at this job for a long time
- and it does seem like We are often cleaning up after things that should have been done a long time ago
- and then all of a sudden somebody realizes oh
- we should have been increasing this rate, or we should have been annexing land, or we should have been
- doing this or that, and then the problem becomes exponentially worse because then we're all of a sudden
- doing a lot of whatever it is. So I think that's unfortunate. I don't think it's the fault of anybody
- in this room, but past leadership should have been looking at this rate a long time ago.
- I think it is an important principle that other ratepayers should not be subsidizing the cost of septage
- processing, even if it's only a few cents. However, I think this proposal can be improved. For one thing,
- it is basing the treatment costs on an estimate from the EPA from 1994. I mean, that's 30-year-old estimate.
- And it doesn't, that estimate doesn't make a distinction between a septic system and a holding tank.
- And I think those are problems with this proposal. So I think we should maybe wait until we get more
- accurate data. Overall, I think that I have, I don't think a lot of people in the greater community
- know about this proposal.
- I don't know how much outreach was done by CBU but it seems like a lot of the outreach that the things
- we've heard tonight are being heard for the first time maybe by by CBU staff and the utility service
- board. And so I think that in general one lesson we should take from this is to do more public outreach
- earlier. So I'm in favor of postponing this. Thank you. Other council member comment.
- Councilmember Flaherty. Yeah, thank you. I'll also speak in defense of cost of service regulation like
- I think I'm very much in support of that as a principle as an applied principle I think We should be
- aiming for that what my big reservation here is is that we don't actually have accurate cost of service
- because we've made an assumption that is very coarse to describe a highly variable set of things
- And so that's what we have to go back to the drawing board to figure out if we can do better by way
- of differentiating those things to charge different rates that are cost of service based. And also with
- appropriate phases to avoid unintended consequences, I think that's reasonable as well. Yeah,
- that's it. So I think that's gonna take some time. I don't think we can do it in two weeks. I think
- that means we need to either postpone indefinitely or to kill the thing or vote down. I don't know if
- there's a difference functionally.
- Thank you very much for comments as well. I appreciate it. Thank you councilmember daily I just want
- to say I recognize that a real lot of hard work went into putting this together and all this research
- and and thank you very much to the CBU I know it was a lot of work and a lot of heart went into it and
- I also really appreciate everybody who came and spoke I am sympathetic to both sides. I certainly agree
- Everybody here and so we're kind of trying to find that sweet middle spot and so I I think that even
- though Whatever happens tonight either whether it's voted down or postponed. I don't think this conversation
- was futile I think we all learned a heck of a lot tonight and I think it's really really valuable and
- so I think these conversations as long and tiring and as hard as they can be sometimes our
- are absolutely worth it and really what this is about for stronger community building. So thank you
- all very much. Thank you. I think then everybody is comment about me. So I will go ahead and take a
- comment here. I'm generally in favor of raising these rates. It's been 25 years and we need to raise
- the rates.
- I think most people who spoke tonight agree with that and I think it's really problematic that we have
- hollers coming from Extremely far away because our rates are so low. That is a huge problem That being
- said I think that Like the eight cents doesn't necessarily bother me on the face because it does seem
- to kind of compare favorably with surrounding rates but
- Don't know enough about those surrounding rates in terms of how they're dealing with Partial tanks versus
- full tanks how they're dealing with the very sludgy septic versus the holding tanks and I think that
- there's Some kind of unanswered questions in that I am in My preference tonight would be to just
- Vote no on this and send it back to get some of those answered because I don't think postponing two
- weeks is going to amount to enough. And I think I heard that directly from director Zager who would
- like to then bring this to the utility service board which I think is really appropriate. Their next
- meeting is the 15th which is only two days.
- before our next regular session meeting. And that is not enough time to get that feedback. So I'm not
- sure if that's what Council Attorney Lanner would also say. Additionally, the 17th has, I think, five
- or six pieces of legislation on it, including the annexation as second readings. And that is also set
- up to be a long meeting. And to put this on that meeting, I think, would be a mistake. And as president,
- I would then
- have to push something else I think to make that at all reasonable so I would be in favor of just taking
- the vote on it tonight and Voting it down as opposed to postponing since we're so close to the end of
- the year So that is my comment is that does anybody want to make a motion to postpone Seeing none will
- look Oh councilmember Flaherty
- Don't have a strong opinion. I just wondered if there was any practical difference with postponing
- indefinitely which maybe sends a clearer signal that like this actually While it ends the well, it kills
- the ordinance. I think it's less of like I Don't know. It's it probably doesn't matter. Yeah, I think
- it's more discussion has set that clear, right? What I think that what we've said has made it Yeah
- Does that does that feel yes, I think under Robert's rules of order there is some nuance with respect
- to postponement indefinitely. It's a way of disposing with a question without accepting or rejecting
- it. The effect is to suppress it for the duration of the current session which in this case ends
- in just a few weeks. So I think it would permit the ordinance to come back in twenty twenty six in the
- same way that a vote to reject it tonight would have that same effect too. So I think you there I think
- both both postponement and definitely and calling the question and then voting to reject are both viable options.
- Does anybody want to move to postpone indefinitely? Seeing no one do that. Will the clerk please call
- the roll on ordinance 2025 44 as amended No, no No
- All right, that fails zero seven. And I thank everybody for coming to this and also thank everybody
- who stayed through this to deal with the toe ordinances that are next. And I look forward to hearing
- more some kind of alternate proposal in 2026. So moving on to the next.
- I move that ordinance 2025 dash 19 be introduced and read by the clerk by title and synopsis only second
- Thank you. It's been moved and seconded to introduce ordinance 2025 19. All those in favor, please say
- aye. Aye opposed Thank you. Will the clerk please read? Ordinance 2025 dash 19 to men title 15 of the
- Bloomington Municipal Code entitled remote removal and impound of vehicles regarding chapters 15 point
- 48 and 15 point 52
- Updating permissible towing and storage charges for authorized towing services. The synopsis is as follows
- ordinance 2025-19 Updates the maximum towing chart the maximum charges authorized towing services may
- collect when performing city initiated toes To reflect more accurately the costs associated with towing
- services and current market pricing Thank you I move that ordinance 2025-19 be adopted
- Second. Thank you. Who is here to talk about title 15 if you could introduce yourself for the record
- and go ahead. Good evening council members. I'm assistant city attorney and Edina Casamanian from the
- city of Bloomington legal department. And first I'd like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to
- today regarding proposed legislation under Title 15 of the Bloomington Municipal Code which covers police
- initiated towing and other non-consensual towing I'd also like to say I'm joined here today tonight
- with sergeant sergeant Jacob Hunter from the Bloomington Police Department and several members from
- the towing community and
- So tonight I'd like to briefly discuss why the city should consider Updating or modifying the towing
- fees and why that would be legally sound fiscally necessary and operationally essential for ensuring
- public safety mobility while also meeting expectations that our code sets out for both enforcement and
- for both enforcement officers and towing contractors so I'm going to
- You know just sort of go over three different areas. I want to talk about legal authority under title
- 15. I'd also like to talk about fees Quality and sustainable sustainable rates and I'd also like to
- talk about Public safety and how this impacts public safety here from the city of Bloomington so under title 15
- The Bloomington Municipal Code the city is expressly authorized to do a few things Some of those things
- among other are established fees that reflect the reasonable cost of towing and storage recover enforcement
- costs tied to Not only illegal parking but also events where there's traffic obstruction the city is
- also authorized to contract with private towing companies at rates set or approved by the city and
- So moving along, I'd like to sort of go into fees. Current fees no longer accurately reflect the actual
- operational cost. Our towing fees have remained largely static for a few years. During this
- time, administrative tasks such as dispatch, coordination, record keeping, adherence to compliance,
- and release procedures have grown more complex under police-initiated toes.
- The cost of fuel has increased, insurance premiums for tow truck operators has increased, the cost of
- labor has even increased, and the cost of actual tow truck equipment and maintenance has become more
- expensive.
- Additionally the cost of storage continues to increase as there's becoming more need and requirement
- for Security lighting and surveillance fencing all which are not cheap. We're towing companies store
- vehicles. So what this means is that the city's actual cost of enforcing title 15 is higher than the
- fee revenue that's being collected by our tow companies who are on our police rotation list
- It's clear that when the fees don't cover the real cost the shortfall is ultimately absorbed And where
- is it being absorbed? It's being absorbed by city of Bloomington taxpayers the city budget It's also
- being absorbed by police officers who lose time due to understaffed towing companies who we've contracted
- with Additionally when we talk about rates and fees
- We we have noticed that our rates are not they differ from the county and from Indiana University And
- as we go more into that we can address questions on that But I want to talk a little bit more about
- public safety as you know towing is not merely just an administrative process It's one of primary public
- safety. It's one of our primary public safety tools
- that we use to manage transportation and traffic flow in and out of our city. So when an illegally parked
- vehicle blocks fire lanes or transit stops it's not just an inconvenience. This actually translates
- into a risk because fire trucks ambulances school buses other essential services must be able to move
- through the city reliably. Title 15 gives the city the authority to remove
- illegally parked vehicles through our contracted towing companies and those vehicles are ultimately
- obstructing traffic where emergency vehicles and preventing emergency vehicles from being able to get
- through or park in their designated areas putting People at risk the citizens of Bloomington at risk
- however title 15 can only work in
- If our contracted tow providers are able to respond quickly maintain high quality equipment have enough
- staff and meet the code and the contracts the contract between the police and the city has a standard
- our contracted tow companies have to be ready 24 7 when they're on call for with the city of Bloomington
- with the police department
- All of these things that I just listed all depend on financial viability. If we continue to allow towing
- rates to stay stagnant, providers can't afford to respond quickly, have reliable staff, have safety
- gear, modern trucks, and properly functioning secured storage. Additionally, the response time then
- begins to lag and enforcement, our law enforcement and enforcement just generally becomes inconsistent.
- And this is the nexus where the city of Bloomington's public safety is compromised a well-functioning
- towing system not does only deal with illegal parking. It protects the lives of the residents as I stated
- earlier. So with that being said I'd like to just talk a little bit more about how the fees have remained
- outdated and how companies cannot
- Meet the standards that I've just listed without cutting corners or feeling compelled to withdraw from
- contracting with city of Bloomington's Police Department and to be on the rotation list. So when our
- to our contracted tow companies are not being properly compensated or at least not compensated at market
- rate it puts us all at risk.
- here in the city of Bloomington. So the goal of updating the fee is not to burden the residents of the
- city of Bloomington rather it's to ensure the towing program under Title 15 is financially neutral and
- does not shift costs on to taxpayers who follow rules who so simultaneously it preserves the essential
- principle that the city's public roads belong to the community as a whole. We are at the same time.
- Where at the same time Bloomington's infrastructure should be protected for all these reasons above
- I'm open to questions about the proposed changes and I also have Sergeant Jacob partner from Bloomington
- Police Department and the tow company's here to answer any questions you all might have Thank you, I
- also want to note that we have three amendments on this ordinance
- Councilmember Piedmont Smith, do you have a motion for yeah, I'd like to go ahead and move amendment
- one because it's really Just moving some text and Correcting typos second. Thank you.
- Thank you. Councilmember Piedmont Smith Do you want to continue to explain amendment one that is also
- in that packet addendum was released this afternoon? I
- So this amendment makes typographical corrections and moves the text regarding the 450 dollar surcharge
- for a heavy tow from section 15 52070 to sections 15 48030 and 15 52060 for full transparency. It just
- makes more sense for those for that surcharge to be listed in those two sections.
- Therefore it deletes section four of the ordinance which is that same text in section 15 52 0 7 0 which
- is really about police contracts. It's not about the surcharge. Thus those specific terms are added
- for Bloomington Police Department's towing contracts for non-consensual toes since that contract would
- have to follow Bloomington municipal code 15 52 0 6 0 anyway.
- So hopefully this is clear if you if you have the text in front of you, it's just moving some language
- and correcting some typos Thank you. Are there questions from council members regarding amendment one?
- I Don't see any but I do have one I do agree with councilmember Piedmont Smith that that it is just
- like moving language that's already in there and not really changing anything Give me one second. I
- believe Believe I don't have any
- concerned with that. One second.
- Yes. Okay great. Thank you. Any other questions. Okay let's go ahead and go to public comment on Amendment
- 1 to ordinance 2025 19 if the public would like to comment on just this Amendment 1 which as councilmember
- Piedmont Smith described moves language around a little bit and corrects some typographical errors can
- make your way to the podium if you're in chambers or raise your hand on zoom. I don't see anybody in
- chambers or their hands raised on zoom.
- We'll go back to counsel then for any comments about amendment one Okay, will the clerk please call
- the roll on amendment one to ordinance 2025 19 Yes, yes, yes Yes Yes Thank you. So amendment one passes
- with a vote of seven to zero
- Can someone move amendment to for me or can I move my own amendment? I move amendment to Second,
- thank you, and I will pass the gavel to my vice president So amendment to is mine and an amendment to
- for this ordinance it
- Undoes some things that were added currently our ordinance allows 24 hours to accrue to pass before
- storage fees start being active the proposed ordinance changes out to 12 my amendment shifts that back
- to 24 and I My reasoning for that is that 12 hours is just not very long It's literally overnight and
- if somebody gets towed say at 9 p.m
- They might not be able to get their vehicle by 9 a.m Before they're they're starting to get charged
- for that for that storage fee And I just think that that is not totally just and then especially when
- you combine that storage fee to incorporate that additional fee of not exceeding $75 if pickup is made
- outside of business hours so that is a new fee to add the outside of business hours fee and
- and I my Amendment strikes that entirely and my reasoning for that is that there is nothing that says
- when tow companies have to have business hours and it doesn't define business hours in any way and I
- can imagine a tow company deciding that they're going to have extremely limited business hours in order
- to get that $75 from as many people as possible and so unless we
- define business hours or require companies to have a Certain number of business hours. I don't think
- that that is fair at all to to add that fee in and so those are the two changes that get made by this
- amendment Somebody have any questions
- Yeah when it comes to Picking up a vehicle the sponsor said that 12 hours was was was not a reasonable
- amount of time and that To let it revert back to 24, which I believe it is now My question is do who
- can pick up Who can pick up a vehicle
- From that's being held or that's been towed Could can anyone that the person tells to go pick it up
- tell a friend to go pick it up a family member Or does it have to be the person that the car is titled
- to or whatever? Do we know who can pick up the car? That's correct it's who's tied who has the title
- to the vehicle and
- Who's the registered title owner of the vehicle? Or the owner of a lean Or the holder of a lean on the
- vehicle is identified in the BMC as being able to to claim the motor vehicle also Sorry Councilmember Flaherty
- I have a question about the practical implication of the second component of the amendment about Eliminating
- the fee for pickups outside of business hours again, I think it goes to a kind of a pragmatic like how
- the business operations actually work is a Like one possibility is by eliminating that possibility of
- a fee for pickup outside of storage Would that mean that they're simply it sorry pick up outside of
- business hours with that?
- Simply lead to there being no pickup outside of business hours. Whereas right now with if it allows
- for an extra fee it's something that folks would be willing to accommodate because They can you know
- recoup costs associated with showing up out of business hours to let someone get their car out I didn't
- say that as clearly as I could have is there a legal requirement that towing companies allow pickup
- outside of business hours and
- In other words, do they have to do it, regardless of whether they're allowed to charge a fee or not?
- Because my fear is that if they don't have to do it and you don't allow them to recoup costs, that by
- eliminating that cost, they simply won't do it. Did that make more sense?
- I was gathering in the beginning, but as you continued I start to lose track. So can you repeat the
- question? Okay, I think I know what he means Yeah, so I think One of one of the other parts of code
- I'm trying to find it and I don't have it in front of me Says that a vehicle must be available for pickup
- within an hour after it gets towed. Mm-hmm
- And so if you combine that with the out of business hours, it's like if you tow my car and then an hour
- later, you're not in business hours and you're gonna charge me that extra $75. And that's where I think
- that these things combine to be like whoever's getting towed is just losing.
- And I can appreciate that our police department is gonna dot all their I's and cross all their T's for
- these tows, but I also want to accommodate things. It's not just that people are parking and blocking
- the right of way sometimes, or accruing a bunch of parking tickets. Sometimes they're getting into a
- vehicular accident, and sometimes that's something big, and sometimes it's something small. There are
- lots of situations that I can imagine where somebody would have to get their vehicle towed
- and then deal with some sort of you know emergency situation and You know or if their vehicle Needed
- needs a new battery and suddenly it stops working and then it needs to get towed and then you have to
- figure out how to go get a new battery and all of these like pieces of is it fair to say we don't know
- for sure how this Not allowing a fee might affect business decisions of the towing companies or
- Well I can speak to your question I think I understood it Councilmember Flaherty under Indiana code
- five dash two dash twenty six point one. It lays out the total rotation requirements and among the list
- of 13 items item number
- Item number nine says that availability for the owner to pick up the vehicle including after hours.
- So it is a legal requirement to allow pickup after hours. OK. Thank you. Other questions for the sponsor
- or for staff. Oh council member Ruff.
- Like to hear the administration's opinion on this. Changing it. Yeah. Back to the 24 hours. We're in
- no objection. And the end of the fee. The seventy five dollar fee. Oh the seventy five dollar fee. I
- can't answer that question right at this moment. I would have to talk to more people.
- Question I can't answer. Okay. Thank you Any other councilmember questions before we go to the public
- All right, let's go to public comment on amendments to to ordinance 2025-19 If you have a comment on
- the amendment which would
- Strike the $75 outside of business hours fee and revert back to 24 hours before the storage fee is incurred.
- If you have a comment on that, please come to the podium, clearly print your name on the sign in sheet
- and state your name and then you'll have up to three minutes. And if you're on Zoom, please use the
- raise hand function.
- Hi, my name is Ken parish with Ken's West Side Service in towing Bloomington I've been on your rotation
- for quite a few years. We've some of us have met before and others we haven't Thank you for having me
- tonight. I would like to address a couple of these changes that you're asking about the 12-hour back
- to 24 actually The 24 hours makes more sense anyway, because technically by the state of Indiana We're
- not legally allowed to charge for the final 24 hours of storage in any way. So if you're there, I
- Less than 24 hours, it's free. If it's been there 10 days, you're only paying for nine. So you get the
- 24 hours free no matter what. So going back to the 24 hours is not an issue for any of us, and none
- of us have any obligations to challenge that whatsoever. I'd like to answer some of the questions as
- far as eliminating the after hours fees. And I'd like to kind of address this in two different manners,
- if I may. The non-consensual toes, which I believe is 4.32,
- And then the city initiated toes is the fifteen point two and the fifteen point four eight.
- Is that correct? The city initiated toes is the fifteen four eight and five two. Yes Okay,
- just for fifteen, okay, so Those of us are doing the city toes like that most of us and almost all of
- us that are on your rotation for city toes
- have business hours and those business hours are eight to five, Monday through Friday. Some of us offer
- some Saturday hours, if not all of us offer at least a short window for Saturday hours. And yes, most
- of us are closed on Sundays. I myself personally and none of these other gentlemen and ladies that are
- on the rotation would probably have an issue with establishing said business hours with your agreement
- or contract with those to establish that during these business hours, eight to five, Monday through Friday,
- You cannot be charged any after hours fees and what we're doing most of the time we're not dealing with
- public park or private parking lots and stuff like that where we're dealing with somebody 24 hours a
- day. Most of the people we're dealing with our city police were towing in cars that have been in accidents.
- If it was city initiated tow for illegal parking tickets most of those folks can't get those parking
- tickets settled up to the next business day anyway.
- So we're not going to have to deal with that but we do not have staff on location 24 hours a day to
- release cars. And second of all I don't also have all of my employees who have keys to my establishment
- to go in there and unlock the building and release cars. I only have one or two people to do that. They're
- off work. They're at home. I got to pay them to come.
- on their time to come into my business and release those cars. And I've absorbed those costs for a lot
- of years, and I know these guys have too, of having to come in after hours, one, two, three o'clock
- in the morning, because we also have concerns and we want them to have their car. We do. We understand
- there's car seats. We understand there's medications. We understand there's photo IDs and all these
- things that come into play. We're compassionate with that to the sense that we want you to have your
- things, but you also need to be compassionate with us and understand
- We have lives and we want to be at home, too We have certain guys that are on call of a night and they
- have shifts. I'm sorry, sir. That's the end of your time No worries. Thank you. Is there anybody on
- zoom? With a hand raised. No, okay. We'll take the next person here in chambers Okay, I'm glad I let
- him go first cuz he hit everything I took notes about so I
- Personally am NOT on the sheriff rotation. What is your name, please? My name is Jacob padawan. I'm
- the owner of tow time towing here in Bloomington We are one of probably the two largest private lot
- towing companies in town. I do not do police toes here Except for IU. I do do police toes in Bedford
- Lawrence County Mitchell and several other counties but I basically just wanted us touch base on a few
- different things and
- On the private lot side that people may not understand that we spend drastic money on I'm sorry, sir.
- We're this amendment is only about the police initiated toes This amendment it said both on the screen
- Is it not illegally parked cars, yes This would be illegally parked cars trespassing vehicles. Oh, but
- illegally parked cars in the public right-of-way. Oh
- is what we're talking about. OK. Well all right. Thank you. But you'll have an opportunity later.
- Thank you. Name's Chad Stevens and owner of Blans record service. I'm just going to go along a little
- bit of what. Could you please be sure to speak into the microphone. You can use the other. OK.
- Chad Stevens lands record service Gonna extend on what mr. Parrish said from Ken's Westside I want to
- take out the misconception that we are not open 24 hours a day, but we provide service 24 hours a day
- Meaning that as far as open business hours were eight to five Monday through Friday Now we'll provide
- service all 24 hours a day seven days a week but like he said I got guys that want to be home and
- Uh, Cameron here, my operations manager had to come in at three different times over the weekend. I
- had to pay him. Um, like it was 11 o'clock at night, two o'clock in the morning and four o'clock in
- the morning to release cars. And so I'm in favor of keeping the 75 or adding the $75 fee because I'm
- absorbing that as well. Paying him to come in and release these cars. That's all I got to say. Thank you.
- Any other comments. May I address the seventy five dollar fee part two. Yes. OK. I'm definitely in favor
- of putting that in the legislature as well. Currently you guys don't have anything that says you cannot
- charge an after hours fee. And I think that if you include that that it would take away a little bit
- of confusion to the public. But they are absolutely right. Services 24 7 office hours can't be we can't
- afford it for the regulations that you guys
- You know have on anything across the board So we do the same thing. We have staff that work during the
- day in the office. I actually Have night staff as well One of them's right here that can work six days
- a week all night long because we're trying to provide the most Help to the community, but there's still
- people calling at four o'clock in the morning five o'clock in the morning 4 a.m. To 7 a.m. I'm in bed.
- I won't even answer the phone. I
- But I just want to touch base on that. It is very important that we get that into the legislation.
- Thank you. Thank you. Is there anybody on zoom yet at this point. No. OK. Next person here in chambers.
- I'm Cameron myself on the operations manager with Blaine's record service just to touch on.
- The comment that was made about you know concerns with Stating that you know a tone service would say
- that all of a sudden we towed your car and now it's not business hours Our business hours are posted
- We say that they're Monday through Friday eight to five. There's transparency with us And we'd be happy
- to agree to you know contractually saying that as well to get the after-hours sheet put in there because
- like he said It was actually four times last weekend
- I had to come in after hours 11 p.m. 2 a.m. To release cars We don't want to keep people's cars, but
- do we do want to get compensated for what we're up to do. So Thank you Thank you Any other comments
- on the amendment All right seeing none we will come back to council members are there any follow-up
- questions on amendment to I
- Oh Yes councilmember daily, I guess would you be open to doing an amendment to put the $75 back in If
- that's the only way that this will pass and keep that 24 hours in I guess I have to be open to that
- but I'm Like I appreciate that the companies that have come tonight say that they are honest that they're
- gonna stick by their business hours, but there are victims of predatory towing in this town and
- And I also wanna say that for Title 15, that is police-initiated towing, once again, I trust that our
- police department is gonna dot their I's and cross their T's, but one of the, I mean, there's two towing
- ordinances tonight, and they've been kept in alignment. And so part of it is like, okay, keeping it
- in alignment between whether you're a police tow or whether you're a private tow. And if we don't have
- business hours defined
- then tow companies can take advantage of people. So if we leave this $75 in, then we need to also define
- and demand business hours, stable business hours, written business hours, so that residents know what
- to expect. Because I get it. If you have somebody coming in and having to work overtime, you need to
- pay them. There should be a fee for that, right?
- It also should not be possible for then a tow company to take advantage of people by severely limiting
- their business hours, which could happen because there are a lot of dishonest tow companies in this
- town. Does that answer your question, by the way? I have some real passion about predatory towing because
- I've been a victim of predatory towing, and I know a lot of constituents of mine who've been victims
- of predatory towing.
- It is it is it is a real thing in Bloomington and it happens and I respect I respect your your passion
- and and thank you for that I mean, yeah, cuz I've torn too because I am concerned about you know hardship
- costs for People who can't afford the towing in the first place. So Yeah, I hear you I mean I I felt
- like it was easier in the amendment to just scrap the fee than to try to define what business hours
- are supposed to be and
- So that was why I scrapped it instead of trying to define business hours. Any other questions on the
- amendment. Council member Ruff I guess for staff more than any of my colleagues. So how hard and how
- quickly could we bring back. Actually let me rephrase that.
- Let me direct first question at the sponsor. So if these hours required hours were in place you would
- be supportive of the after hours fee of $75 Yeah, if there were kind of subscribed business hours that
- tow companies had to abide by Then then that would be fine with me So then that leads to my question
- for staff, which was I mean is this a
- Probably a pretty straightforward. Do you envision? to I Guess for minutes the administration Question
- would be to develop hours requirement and then to bring it forward with the fee with after hours fee
- I Mean, I'm not I'm not comfortable. I don't like either one. I don't like the either or option here.
- I If I want I want to support
- Idea of requiring hours, but I don't want to say no family you pay extra fee for after-hour services
- for plumbers and For heating and cooling for lots of things right and it's part of what you do So I
- don't like eliminating that But what you're suggesting seems to be an amendment to amendment to potentially a
- But which could be done I mean the hours component would require some some thought and maybe the legal
- department or the administration would have some ideas regarding what that might be reflected as That
- potentially could come back for a third reading and
- I'm going to take the privilege of the chair here for a second. I thought that councilmember Ross question
- was for the administration. Could you bring forward another ordinance that sets the business hours and
- allows a seventy five dollar fee and how hard would that be. Is that the heart of your question.
- Councilmember Ruff Yeah. Would this could we deal with this quickly in January or February or something
- easily. So that is so this is for city staff. I think this question
- Yeah So maybe I can chime in here with title 15. These are these are police toes These are toes by our
- contracted the companies that are contracted with BPD and the $75 and the business hours
- We have a contract so it's potentially that the that BPD would be you know able to include that in our
- contract with our towing companies at that level But I will allow BPD to speak to that Again, I'm sergeant
- Jacob Hunter and with the Bloomington PD I've been tasked early last year towards the end of 23 with
- our contract and
- negotiations or the handling the contracts of the Bloomington police and the tow companies for our tow
- rotations During this year, it's been some changes obviously from state legislation So we're currently
- in the process of getting the new contract drafted up to make it I Guess okay for the state essentially
- to make sure we're abiding by all state law and
- We could very well potentially put those hours in the contract because since chapter 15 only handles
- a police initiated toes or city initiated toes we can put those restrictions in the contract and I'm
- the one that deals or the person that's designated a BPD is the one that deals with our toe rotation
- if any toe companies go outside of that contract we have the ability to seize and assist that
- that partnership with them so they can now no longer work under chapter 15 if that makes sense
- Thank you. Council member Stossberg. So right now like in terms of the current ordinance and then how
- my proposal totally scratches that line like tow companies are allowed to charge an after hours fee
- right. It's just silent and code code doesn't say you're not allowed to do it right. Right. So companies
- could still be charging an after hours fee like currently.
- Because I mean if code is silent on it and it doesn't say that they're not allowed to charge a fee Then
- they could be allowed to charge a fee Yes, let me just I'll take a brief moment to look at title 15
- one more time Okay, cuz I guess by that logic if we approve this amendment and scratch that fee that
- still allows the police department to write in a
- That kind of maximum and stuff into their contract. Yes Yeah code does it's silent so silent as to after
- hours fee so you're correct Councilmember sorry
- On the question of the $75, doesn't it, if we were to remove the language that's in there now, doesn't
- that mean that they could charge $150, $300? I mean, the function of that language is to limit what
- can be charged, not to say that it will be charged. Is that a question for me? Question for you. OK.
- Yeah, you're right. But I guess.
- The part that I'm concerned about is companies then limiting their business hours to then be able to
- always get that fee or to get that fee as much as possible and then especially when you combine that
- with With the storage fee is starting to accrue like and it and it definitely like this this whole issue of
- Once again the title 15 and the title four are currently in alignment and the proposed new one is in
- alignment. And so I'm most concerned about the non-consensual private towing as opposed to the police
- initiated towing in terms of concern that tow companies are going to take advantage of people. And and
- so I was trying to keep my amendments in alignment.
- But I think yes I think to council member roughs point I think we need to introduce other other amendments
- at either now or at some separate time we can further amend title 15 I think to add some controls over
- you know whether that be ours but also some prohibition of charging beyond something and it may be a
- good idea.
- Councilman I don't think I've opened it up to Well, actually we did we have questions and we have had
- comments so it's become a little bit confused Are there any further comments on amendment to? Councilmember
- Stossberg. Well, I'll just take my mic. This is this is not public comment Yeah
- As I said, I do have faith that our police department crosses their t's and dots their eyes and that
- you know when when they Call somebody in their toe rotation, you know that there's some element of trust
- there but I Don't have that same kind of faith in the title for towing which we're gonna talk about
- next but currently those two codes are in alignment and
- with each other and it seems to me that the legal department wants to keep them in alignment and I really
- do not want to give any anything away to dishonest toe companies who are going to take advantage of
- our residents and toe inappropriately because
- there probably should be a lot more notices of violation going out to tow companies for inappropriate
- tows, but residents who get towed don't realize that they can complain or realize how to complain, and
- a lot of people who might get towed might be visitors, and all they wanna do is get their car and get
- out of Dodge. And so we're not gonna hear those complaints necessarily, and those people are not gonna
- be able to follow through on what could be an extensive process with the city of figuring out notices
- of violation. And so I do not wanna
- Anything away to dishonest tow companies, but I appreciate that there are a lot of honest tow companies
- out there too And that our police department is working with those so That's I guess my comment I would
- ask counsel that that we support this and if we want to Bring it back and make some changes around specifying
- business hours And in terms of those fees then that's something that could be done in January
- Any other final comments on amendment to Did you find comments comments No Well, yes councilmember Daley
- Thank you. Sorry. I was about to start talking before you recognize me. So Yeah, okay, so I I Have a
- love not hate
- a love, not so love relationship with this. I like the 24 hour part. I will vote to support this right
- now, but I do want to then come back and revisit this later and make those business hour adjustments
- so that we can have that after hours charge, the $75 fee. I think that's fair for the people who have
- to get up at four in the morning. I'm so sorry for you for that. So yeah, I'll be working to try to
- bring this back then and make that
- Palatable for everybody, so I'll support this for now, but with that understanding. Thank you And I
- will add a comment just to say that I agree with what councilmember Daley just said that I Would prefer
- to leave in the $75 fee But it's it's a package deal at this point and I do feel confident that we can
- come back with some business hours and allowing after hours fee so
- That's not lose sight of that in the coming months All right. I think we're ready for no point. Sorry
- councilmember clarity If if folks are quite serious about coming back to make additional minor tweaks
- to these ordinances We should go to third reading and fix it now not bring it as separate ordinances
- in 2026 That's my two cents
- So we have a motion on the table to approve Amendment 2. If we take a vote and do not approve Amendment
- 2 then we could consider a motion to delay to table this to December 17th and come up with a new amendment.
- Am I right.
- I think it would be easier on staff to not try to write an amendment on the fly, especially if the next
- ordinance amending chapter four might have a similar Problem Okay, well I do I do believe we have to
- vote on the motion that's on the table Councilmember Flaherty just just briefly weighing in on that
- too. We are kind of under the wire with some time and
- And it's tough to amend amendments on the fly. I also thought got the impression from the administration
- that they would benefit from a moment to like step back and confer discuss those types of additions
- rather than doing it on the fly in the last hour of tonight's meeting. Attorney Leonard am I correct
- that we need to vote on the motion that's on the table.
- Some action needs to be taken whether it's to postpone it to a date certain or to to vote on the question
- itself. Can we can we postpone even though we haven't voted on the amendment. The postponement would
- be for the main question. So we should vote on the amendment.
- Yes, I mean certainly that's that's an option to vote on on the amendment now. I think that makes sense.
- Council member Stossberg. I would be willing to withdraw the amendment and then move to postpone to
- a date certain if that would be a preference. Second. Oh, that wasn't a motion. But it sounds like that
- was a preference motion. So so I'll withdraw. Wait a minute.
- Councilmember daily you're the one that technically moved to that moved my amendment So so so I'm okay
- with you withdrawing my amendment right now This is what I get for trying to be helpful. I really appreciate
- it Yeah, I make a motion to you don't have to make a motion. You just have to withdraw. I withdraw the
- amendment Okay, so that amendment has been withdrawn Councilmember Stossburg
- And I would like to move that we postpone this matter until our next regular session on December 17th.
- So we're postponing ordinance 2025 19 as amended second All right Do we need a roll call vote on the
- motion to postpone or can we just do a voice vote?
- Simple majority simple majority is yeah, I think you could do a voice vote. There's nobody participating
- All right, all in favor of the motion to postpone to December 17th, please say aye Any opposed Okay,
- so that motion passes We will now move on to I will give this back to President Stansbury, that's what
- I'll do. Thank you
- Councilmember daily next excuse me. Yeah It's after 1030, which means we need a two-thirds majority
- to introduce Any further legislation? What about a further amendment? Amendments are okay. I think I
- looked I looked up in code earlier. So we would just need a two-thirds majority to introduce the ordinance I
- But there is another amendment to ordinance 2020. Oh, we post all that. Yeah Sorry last track Maybe
- I'll tired point of order and information just related to procedure here Would it be better? if this
- next ordinance faces a similar set of challenges which will require a similar resolution of stepping
- back drafting something new that isn't drafted now working with the administration to vet it and
- Might we be better served by Moving now to postpone rather than kind of like going through some It hasn't
- been introduced I guess even directing it to a third reading maybe we do need to introduce it to do
- that to make that motion. Yeah, I mean Councilmember daily I move that ordinance 2025-20 be introduced
- and read by the clerk by title and synopsis only second
- So since it is after 1030, I'm gonna ask that the clerk do a roll call on this motion to introduce ordinance
- 2025 20 Councilmember daily. Yes. Sorry. No clarity. Yes No Yes Yes
- That was a five to seven or sorry a five to two vote and we needed a two-thirds majority of counsel
- Not of those present. So that means that that has failed to be introduced I just want to say grand apologies
- right now to Our staff detail arousal who's been sitting over there for like five hours
- Five hours to talk about this ordinance That will end up having to go on the agenda next At the meeting
- on the 17th, we'll try that again Yes, December 7 did I say September December 17. All right moving
- on in our agenda then This is the additional period
- period of public comment, so a maximum of 25 minutes set aside for anybody who wants to comment on something
- not on the agenda this evening. If there's anybody in chambers wanting to comment on something not on
- the agenda, you can go ahead and make your way to the podium. If you're online, you can raise your hand
- using the reactions tab. I don't see anybody coming to the podium. Is there anybody raising a hand on
- Zoom? There's a lot of moving in chambers, but I don't think that anybody's wanting to do public comment.
- Attorney Bennett has there any hand raised on zoom? Okay. Thank you In terms of notes on council schedule
- I would like to highlight First of all, we're gonna have a deliberation session next Wednesday on the
- 10th led by councilmember Piedmont Smith about budget for 2027 if you can believe that in terms of prioritizing
- And then I also want to highlight that next week also on the 10th At 5 o'clock in the Allison conference
- room is the RDC work session about the bunker Robertson property That councilmember Rallo mentioned
- during has councilmember comment and council members are all invited to that work session. So just wanted
- to highlight that and
- Are there any other notes and then our next regular session will be on December 17th? The period for
- public comment on items not on the agenda closed and we moved on I'm sorry Are there any other notes
- on council schedule councilmember Piedmont Smith the committee on council processes will meet Thursday,
- December 11th from 6 to 7 p.m
- Okay any other notes on council schedule. All right then we are adjourned. Thank you.