WEBVTT 00:00:00.866 --> 00:00:10.321 - All right, good evening everybody and welcome to this regular session of the Bloomington City Council. 00:00:10.321 --> 00:00:19.960 - Today is Wednesday, October 14th. I don't have my eyes on but I don't think we have a clerk so nevermind 00:00:19.960 --> 00:00:26.110 - on all of that. Someone get the clerk. Clerk, clerk, clerk, clerk. 00:00:26.786 --> 00:00:38.401 - This is actually, it really highlights how funny what is about to happen is. I mean, I could just ask 00:00:38.401 --> 00:00:50.016 - you all if you're here. I will wait. Not because I want to, but because I must. Dear clerk, thank you 00:00:50.016 --> 00:00:55.710 - so much. Glorious entrance. Will you please, yes. 00:00:59.074 --> 00:01:09.529 - will you please call the roll? Yes, Councilmember Stossberg here. Piedmont Smith here. Zulek here. Sorry 00:01:09.529 --> 00:01:15.006 - here daily here. Rallo here and rough here. Thank you. 00:01:15.170 --> 00:01:23.311 - Thank you very much, and I motion that we always begin council meetings with applause for the clerk. 00:01:23.311 --> 00:01:31.693 - Just before, also on another noteworthy moment, I'd like everybody to acknowledge our brand new council 00:01:31.693 --> 00:01:33.950 - attorney, Mr. Rossman. Yay. 00:01:34.562 --> 00:01:41.585 - We're so grateful for your service to the city. Thank you for being a part of this team. Really much 00:01:41.585 --> 00:01:48.609 - looking forward to working with you. Okay, with that, agendas, they are posted there. There are some 00:01:48.609 --> 00:01:55.563 - copies there. If you are online or if you are seeing impaired, there are digital copies that should 00:01:55.563 --> 00:01:56.606 - be accessible. 00:01:56.738 --> 00:02:04.447 - online as well. Today our meeting, we have a handful of minutes to approve. I think there was some amendments 00:02:04.447 --> 00:02:10.334 - sent out. We'll have reports from the office of the mayor, from council committees. 00:02:10.466 --> 00:02:16.204 - And then there will be a time of public comment. There are two times of public comment. It's best part 00:02:16.204 --> 00:02:21.997 - of the council meeting. Of course, there are also times of public comment for every item on the agenda. 00:02:21.997 --> 00:02:27.680 - But there's two times of public comment for things that are not on the agenda. I'll remind you now so 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:33.362 - that we don't have to remind you later that those times of public comment are for things that are not 00:02:33.362 --> 00:02:37.150 - on the agenda. There'll be one at the beginning and one at the end. 00:02:37.250 --> 00:02:44.158 - We have some appointments to boards and commissions. We'll also be discussing. 00:02:44.322 --> 00:02:52.158 - potentially discussing a proposed removal from a board and commission, and we'll allow some brief comment 00:02:52.158 --> 00:02:59.993 - there. We have legislation for first reading, quite a bit of it, three things, and legislation for second 00:02:59.993 --> 00:03:07.459 - reading. We have one, two, three, four, five, six things. So I like to go home at some point, and so 00:03:07.459 --> 00:03:12.190 - we will try our best to do exactly that. Are there any motions? 00:03:12.386 --> 00:03:19.807 - Before we get going any council member Pema Smith. Yes I move that for each item for first reading we 00:03:19.807 --> 00:03:27.156 - have a maximum of 20 minutes to include presentation council questions and public comment maximum 20 00:03:27.156 --> 00:03:31.230 - minutes. There's a motion in the second any discussion. 00:03:32.674 --> 00:03:39.822 - I'll just say, just as a note, I would, and this is for first reading, just correct, it would be really 00:03:39.822 --> 00:03:46.902 - helpful that we err on the side of more public comment than our comment. So if we can get to questions 00:03:46.902 --> 00:03:53.981 - and then go to public comment, that would be tremendous. Okay, any other discussion? All right, motion 00:03:53.981 --> 00:03:58.174 - in the second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? 00:03:58.498 --> 00:04:06.145 - Okay, one what that passes how many of us are there one two three four five six six one Thank you very 00:04:06.145 --> 00:04:13.569 - very much. All right, let us move on. We have some minutes as amended any further amendments to the 00:04:13.569 --> 00:04:21.438 - minutes Seeing none all those in favor of approving the minutes as amended There wasn't actually a motion 00:04:22.178 --> 00:04:32.821 - Sorry can someone make a motion I move to approve the minutes Excuse me from April 15th 2026 April 22 00:04:32.821 --> 00:04:43.255 - 2026 May 6 2026 May 13th 2026 May 20th 2026 and June 3rd 2026 motion in a second all those in favor 00:04:43.255 --> 00:04:45.342 - say aye any opposed 00:04:45.570 --> 00:04:51.033 - All right, wonderful. We'll move on to reports. Do any of my colleagues have reports or comments? I'll 00:04:51.033 --> 00:04:56.550 - start with you, Councilmember Stosberg, then we'll go Councilmember Piedmont-Smith, and then we'll see. 00:04:56.550 --> 00:05:01.960 - Go ahead. Thank you. Good evening. I have, I think, just three things that I want to mention tonight. 00:05:01.960 --> 00:05:07.423 - One, you'll notice I'm wearing purple, and Councilmember Piedmont-Smith is wearing purple, and I think 00:05:07.423 --> 00:05:13.470 - that Councilmember Rallo down there might have a little bit of purple, and Councilmember Talei's a little purply. 00:05:13.666 --> 00:05:19.756 - Councilmember Piedmont Smith even has a purple cup today. So that's pretty exciting Anyway, the purple 00:05:19.756 --> 00:05:25.727 - is here for domestic violence awareness month That is this month and city staff are actually wearing 00:05:25.727 --> 00:05:31.935 - purple tomorrow. So I thought hey Let's go ahead and wear purple tonight for domestic violence if people 00:05:31.935 --> 00:05:38.025 - could manage to get their wardrobes together it's a very serious issue and very important to recognize 00:05:38.025 --> 00:05:40.094 - survivors of domestic violence and 00:05:41.026 --> 00:05:47.804 - Keep that in our awareness because it is something that people have to live with every day Second thing 00:05:47.804 --> 00:05:54.386 - that I wanted to talk about was the plan Commission meeting there was a plan Commission meeting this 00:05:54.386 --> 00:05:58.622 - past Monday and so at that meeting there were three petitions or 00:05:58.690 --> 00:06:05.983 - One of them had to do with more UDO amendments and that was forwarded with a positive recommendation 00:06:05.983 --> 00:06:13.205 - Most of those amendments are related to higher density housing making it more attainable to Have 80 00:06:13.205 --> 00:06:20.498 - use cottage developments and duplexes. So those will be coming forward to council for final approval 00:06:20.498 --> 00:06:27.358 - for UDO changes and then the other two petitions were both related to voluntary annexation and 00:06:27.458 --> 00:06:35.022 - So we'll have two more voluntary annexation cases. Of course, those go to Plan Commission. So Plan Commission 00:06:35.022 --> 00:06:41.898 - can recommend zoning for those two areas. So not quite sure when those are coming to council, but I 00:06:41.898 --> 00:06:48.774 - think that it should be relatively soon in the next month or two, I would imagine, just in terms of 00:06:48.774 --> 00:06:55.582 - the legal timeline related to annexation. And then lastly, for the public and constituents mostly, 00:06:55.778 --> 00:07:00.222 - Maybe there's quite a crowd here tonight, so there's not usually quite a crowd. 00:07:00.386 --> 00:07:05.494 - Most of you I hear probably don't know that fall is high school cross country season and that makes 00:07:05.494 --> 00:07:10.806 - me very unavailable on weekends when I often have constituent meetings. But I did want to say that that 00:07:10.806 --> 00:07:16.373 - is almost over. And so that will free up my weekends a little bit so people can look for those announcements 00:07:16.373 --> 00:07:21.634 - about different office hours. But in the meantime if anybody wants to bend my ear about something I've 00:07:21.634 --> 00:07:25.822 - had a few different meetings with constituents who just email me and say hey like 00:07:25.922 --> 00:07:32.477 - I need some time. So if you're one of those constituents who feels like, hey, you need some time, go 00:07:32.477 --> 00:07:39.161 - ahead and email and we will work something out. And that's all I've got tonight. Thank you. Thank you. 00:07:39.161 --> 00:07:45.845 - Councilman Smith. Yes. I just wanted to say that my purple shirt today has two purposes. First of all, 00:07:45.845 --> 00:07:52.465 - it is domestic violence awareness month and I want to highlight that. But also this is an Alzheimer's 00:07:52.465 --> 00:07:53.438 - support shirt. 00:07:53.794 --> 00:08:00.970 - that is highlighting that on Sunday we have the annual walk to end Alzheimer's which is taking place 00:08:00.970 --> 00:08:08.216 - at Switchyard Park opening ceremonies at 12 45 p.m. If you're interested it's not too late to join or 00:08:08.216 --> 00:08:15.463 - to donate. You can just just Google Alzheimer's walk Bloomington and you'll get all the info. And I'm 00:08:15.463 --> 00:08:20.862 - walking as always in honor of my late father Ferdinand Piedmont. Thank you. 00:08:22.082 --> 00:08:32.441 - Thank you so much. Anyone else? All right. With that, we'll turn then to Mayor Thompson. Welcome. 00:08:32.441 --> 00:08:43.222 - Thank you, Council, for having me tonight. I want to just start by thanking Council Member Daley, who 00:08:43.222 --> 00:08:51.678 - joined me at the town hall this past week. And I think constituents were really 00:08:52.802 --> 00:09:01.207 - Thrilled to have you there, especially with your upcoming legislation. We are scheduling the 2027 town 00:09:01.207 --> 00:09:09.530 - halls now. They are and always have been something that we invite the council member in that district 00:09:09.530 --> 00:09:17.689 - to. But if at large members want to come to any of them, you are welcome to come. Ruff and Osari in 00:09:17.689 --> 00:09:20.382 - particular who are here tonight. 00:09:21.058 --> 00:09:29.930 - I wanna give a couple of updates. Before I go into city focused updates though, I do want to just notify 00:09:29.930 --> 00:09:38.380 - council if you haven't seen or heard about this already. I'm sure you have. The snap cuts have gone 00:09:38.380 --> 00:09:46.915 - into effect and we have neighbors that are, and service agencies that are really feeling the impacts 00:09:46.915 --> 00:09:49.534 - of those. So I just wanted to, 00:09:49.666 --> 00:09:57.072 - make you all aware if you don't know already that cupboards are becoming more bare and those snap cuts 00:09:57.072 --> 00:10:04.693 - are going into effect. They went into effect on October 1st. We are working with our legislative partners 00:10:04.693 --> 00:10:12.027 - at the federal level and the state level to see what we can continue to do to speak out about it, but 00:10:12.027 --> 00:10:15.550 - more importantly, change some of these policies. 00:10:15.714 --> 00:10:23.948 - On the city list, I wanted to give you a quick update about 714 South Rogers, which of course is part 00:10:23.948 --> 00:10:32.344 - of the Hopewell PUD that we envision using as a future police department. We had some discussions about 00:10:32.344 --> 00:10:40.498 - it last week at the town hall, also attended the McDowell Gardens neighborhood meeting. The McDowell 00:10:40.498 --> 00:10:43.646 - Gardens neighborhood voted in favor of 00:10:43.906 --> 00:10:54.042 - of supporting that project. We're really still in the due diligence phase. We put an RFP out for architects, 00:10:54.042 --> 00:11:03.526 - so all architects listening, you are welcome to apply for that. We still have some structural testing 00:11:03.526 --> 00:11:13.662 - we are likely going to have to do as part of the design phase, and so you won't be seeing that coming to you 00:11:13.826 --> 00:11:21.024 - for some time because we won't know much more about it than we do right now until we get an architect 00:11:21.024 --> 00:11:25.822 - on board and we start looking at feasibility and how that might go. 00:11:26.594 --> 00:11:33.267 - Want to just make it clear that a move in the police station has been needed for quite a long time This 00:11:33.267 --> 00:11:40.068 - is not a signal to the community that we are dramatically increasing the numbers in our police department 00:11:40.068 --> 00:11:46.484 - We have been working towards full staffing we continue to do that But there's no anticipated growth 00:11:46.484 --> 00:11:50.526 - in the police department as a result of this move. We just are 00:11:51.330 --> 00:12:00.833 - Their offices now are substandard and very overcrowded. So this has been an intended move for quite 00:12:00.833 --> 00:12:10.525 - some time. Tied to that somewhat, Showers West. I wanted to just give you an update. Per the terms of 00:12:10.525 --> 00:12:13.566 - the original bond, Showers West 00:12:13.666 --> 00:12:22.023 - is only able to be used for governmental purposes. So all of the existing tenant leases have been negotiated 00:12:22.023 --> 00:12:29.767 - to a conclusion that cost a little over $500,000. The only tenant remaining is the Bloomington Board 00:12:29.767 --> 00:12:37.587 - of Realtors. They're in suites 216 and 218. Their lease ends on June 30th, 2027. So that is a planned 00:12:37.587 --> 00:12:38.814 - departure date. 00:12:39.618 --> 00:12:46.928 - Charles West is already home to our fire administration that obviously was outlined in the original 00:12:46.928 --> 00:12:53.726 - bond. The City Council offices are over there and engineering is already over there as well. 00:12:54.754 --> 00:13:02.660 - Meanwhile, our administration is working on a plan to evaluate space needs overall to assess workflow, 00:13:02.660 --> 00:13:10.412 - storage safety, public access, et cetera, et cetera, as well as what upgrades are going to be needed 00:13:10.412 --> 00:13:13.406 - to move more departments over there or 00:13:13.506 --> 00:13:23.775 - anyone else over there. What we know right now is that Showers West needs approximately $621,000 of 00:13:23.775 --> 00:13:34.866 - high priority repairs. So those include the HVAC controls and boilers, loop pumps being replaced, upgrading 00:13:34.866 --> 00:13:41.438 - the elevators so that they are more functional and data wiring. 00:13:41.570 --> 00:13:49.630 - We recommend the following process We'll finalize our state our space assessment identify phase 00:13:49.630 --> 00:13:58.193 - in possibilities To do this at the most minimal cost And before the end of the year, we will show the 00:13:58.193 --> 00:14:06.588 - RDC our plan and timeline they of course own showers west right now and make a specific request for 00:14:06.588 --> 00:14:10.366 - the sort of must-have repairs over there and 00:14:11.170 --> 00:14:19.797 - We need to prepare to assume the cost of utilities and building maintenance in the 2028 budget so This 00:14:19.797 --> 00:14:28.257 - is the year in advance warning that RDC has been carrying this for a while It was bought by the city 00:14:28.257 --> 00:14:33.534 - administration and last administration time to take it over so 00:14:33.986 --> 00:14:42.533 - I'm gonna sort of end those city updates now I know we had some last-minute amendments to the packet 00:14:42.533 --> 00:14:48.542 - We continue. I know everybody is challenged when there are last-minute 00:14:48.866 --> 00:14:56.069 - Amendments to the packet. I want to thank councilmember Piedmont Smith for the outreach that she's done 00:14:56.069 --> 00:15:03.133 - both to the administration and to the public In in getting changes made before we come into a meeting 00:15:03.133 --> 00:15:10.544 - So that so that we know what we're walking into so I know it causes challenges for us it causes challenges 00:15:10.544 --> 00:15:11.998 - for other people and 00:15:12.290 --> 00:15:19.786 - It also helps sometimes. So I just really wanted to thank council member Piedmont-Smith for her work 00:15:19.786 --> 00:15:27.356 - in continuing to improve that piece of legislation. Happy to answer questions or just sit down. Thank 00:15:27.356 --> 00:15:30.622 - you very much. Any questions for the mayor? 00:15:31.394 --> 00:15:39.189 - All right, see, we weren't all that mean at all. Thank you. All right, moving on, we have reports from 00:15:39.189 --> 00:15:47.060 - council committees. I think there's the transportation committee at this time. I'd like to call, sorry, 00:15:47.060 --> 00:15:53.342 - commission, I'm sorry, the commission call Chair Volin to speak for a few minutes. 00:16:03.170 --> 00:16:11.195 - Thank you very much members of council Steve Wolin chair of the Transportation Commission Here to present 00:16:11.195 --> 00:16:19.145 - the findings of the Commission on the study commissioned by parking services by Walker consultants about 00:16:19.145 --> 00:16:27.095 - the state of parking in the community This study was commissioned in late 2024 Before the transportation 00:16:27.095 --> 00:16:31.486 - Commission existed but the parking Commission which was a 00:16:31.586 --> 00:16:39.410 - predecessor body to the transportation Commission was not Consulted with or involved in the development 00:16:39.410 --> 00:16:47.309 - of the study Since it is the mandate of the Commission to oversee such studies We thought it appropriate 00:16:47.309 --> 00:16:55.358 - to weigh in on the recommendations made by Walker consulting which we did at our September meeting is that 00:16:56.898 --> 00:17:03.921 - Go ahead and advance the slide for me. There you go. So there were 12 findings made. They fell into 00:17:03.921 --> 00:17:11.295 - four buckets, organizational policy, operations, technology, and communications branding and wayfinding. 00:17:11.295 --> 00:17:18.669 - All the votes that we took on each recommendation were either five zero or zero five with one exception. 00:17:18.669 --> 00:17:24.990 - And we found agreement endorsement of eight of the 12 findings. Please advance the slide. 00:17:25.826 --> 00:17:31.538 - The first one we disagreed with a zero five vote to transfer all citation appeals due to the city clerk's 00:17:31.538 --> 00:17:36.980 - office of the parking services division. Generally speaking the commission thought that there wasn't 00:17:36.980 --> 00:17:42.368 - sufficient support for this that it was mostly anecdotal reasons for the change. Next slide please. 00:17:42.368 --> 00:17:48.026 - We did agree the idea that there should be a mission statement for the parking services division because 00:17:48.026 --> 00:17:51.582 - parking is something that does cut across city departments. Next. 00:17:52.482 --> 00:18:00.616 - We also agreed that the that the city should adopt a data driven approach to parking operations management 00:18:00.616 --> 00:18:08.294 - with recurring transparency of key performance indicators. Next slide. We agreed that it was time to 00:18:08.294 --> 00:18:09.662 - change the rates. 00:18:09.762 --> 00:18:15.529 - of the on-street parking using a zone system. In other words, what they're suggesting is that parking 00:18:15.529 --> 00:18:21.240 - should vary according to what part of town it's in. This is an idea that I think whose time has come 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:27.063 - and it was endorsed fully by the commission. Next, please. We also agreed that off-street parking rate 00:18:27.063 --> 00:18:33.283 - changes needed to be made. It wouldn't make sense to adjust the meters and not adjust the garages accordingly 00:18:33.283 --> 00:18:38.654 - because parking is one overall system that people evaluate when they're parking. Next, please. 00:18:39.234 --> 00:18:48.459 - We disagreed with the Walker report that said that on street hours should be reduced. They recommended to 8 p.m. 00:18:48.459 --> 00:18:57.113 - From 9. One member did agree with this but it required five for an endorsement. So this was not endorsed. 00:18:57.113 --> 00:18:58.174 - Next please. 00:18:58.978 --> 00:19:07.139 - We did agree that it's time to reconsider a single space meters that the multi-space meters as parking 00:19:07.139 --> 00:19:15.063 - services said would be less maintenance and more modern and easier to manage and pay by plate is an 00:19:15.063 --> 00:19:22.986 - example something you might see at the Wells library where you type in your plate to to register to 00:19:22.986 --> 00:19:25.918 - park We disagreed with the idea that 00:19:26.498 --> 00:19:34.328 - Enforcement of pay-by-plate multi-space meters should be done through License plate recognition technology 00:19:34.328 --> 00:19:41.792 - those of you who are familiar with the frock flock debate know that Well, thank you disagreed with it 00:19:41.792 --> 00:19:49.110 - we agree that The city does not have a data policy and if this data were collected it would beg the 00:19:49.110 --> 00:19:56.062 - question of how that data would be used so That's why we did not support this this endorsement 00:19:57.026 --> 00:20:03.698 - Next we agreed that gated parking equipment in the garages and lots need to be updated. They're out 00:20:03.698 --> 00:20:10.437 - of date and need replacing. We disagreed with the idea of parking services creating a separate brand 00:20:10.437 --> 00:20:17.309 - identity from the city's only because this is the kind of thing that should be coming from the mayor's 00:20:17.309 --> 00:20:24.114 - office that there should be one coordinated city identity and that different departments shouldn't be 00:20:24.114 --> 00:20:25.182 - doing their own 00:20:25.314 --> 00:20:32.291 - branding specifically. Next, please. We agreed that when it came to communications and marketing that 00:20:32.291 --> 00:20:39.131 - more needs to be done and that a thorough campaign needs to be mounted. Next. Again, this was not a 00:20:39.131 --> 00:20:45.971 - difficult thing to agree with, to install informational signage at key locations to let people know 00:20:45.971 --> 00:20:52.742 - what's available. And finally, did we miss one? I guess, yeah, no, that's it. All right, so again, 00:20:52.742 --> 00:20:54.110 - last slide, please. 00:20:54.306 --> 00:20:59.836 - So we endorsed eight out of the twelve findings of the Walker Commission the Walker consultant report. 00:20:59.836 --> 00:21:05.527 - We hope you'll take those into account when you make further decisions about parking. I'm happy to answer 00:21:05.527 --> 00:21:11.218 - any questions and we'll make sure that these results are forwarded to you. Thank you so much Commissioner 00:21:11.218 --> 00:21:16.318 - Boland. It's so good to see you as always. Any questions for Commissioner Councillor Stasberg. 00:21:16.994 --> 00:21:23.110 - It's a slideshow somewhere in one of our like packet addendums or something this was in the a very similar 00:21:23.110 --> 00:21:28.826 - version of this was in the September 28th packet of the Transportation Commission, but like I said, 00:21:28.826 --> 00:21:34.599 - I updated it a little bit for this presentation and I'm happy to forward it Staff already has access 00:21:34.599 --> 00:21:40.371 - to the the link Okay forwarded to you. That would be great. I Think that the public might appreciate 00:21:40.371 --> 00:21:45.630 - that but there was some small print up there that I I can forward it to you now if you like 00:21:46.594 --> 00:21:53.262 - Just sometime in the next 24 hours should be great sometime in the next 24 hours should be great. Thanks 00:21:53.262 --> 00:21:59.612 - Any other questions? All right. Thank you so much. Thank you All right. We'll now move to the first 00:21:59.612 --> 00:22:05.962 - time of public comment for things that are not on the agenda Which today everything's on the agenda 00:22:05.962 --> 00:22:12.312 - so, you know, good luck. No, but um, you'll you'll have Does anybody wish to give public comment at 00:22:12.312 --> 00:22:15.678 - this venture? Thank you. It just roughly to see okay 00:22:15.842 --> 00:22:21.032 - We'll have three minutes to give public comment on things that are not on the agenda. Again, we'll have 00:22:21.032 --> 00:22:26.072 - multiple opportunities otherwise. Please ideally state your name or alias or something like that for 00:22:26.072 --> 00:22:31.063 - the record. Sign in. People online, if you could just raise your hand and we'll get to you next. So 00:22:31.063 --> 00:22:35.454 - if you're in chambers, if you could approach the podium, now is your chance. Thank you. 00:23:05.282 --> 00:23:28.254 - Sorry I'm writing my name down. All right. First I would like to thank the city council. 00:23:28.354 --> 00:23:35.114 - for having this meeting and having the time for me to come out and have my opinion heard, my voice heard, 00:23:35.114 --> 00:23:41.937 - as well as the opinions of other students here at Indiana University, as well as residents at Bloomington, 00:23:41.937 --> 00:23:48.570 - Indiana. We came here today because Bloomington and Monroe County did the right thing by dropping flock 00:23:48.570 --> 00:23:55.138 - safety. But right now, we are living with a dangerous double standard. I'm so sorry. You can't comment 00:23:55.138 --> 00:23:56.350 - on things that are 00:23:56.546 --> 00:24:01.944 - There's rules. Oh, 100%. Yeah, I was a little unprepared for this. I know. I know. They frustrate me 00:24:01.944 --> 00:24:07.448 - more. But we'll get a chance to talk about Fluck when we talk about Fluck here. 100%, so that's later? 00:24:07.448 --> 00:24:12.899 - Yes, yes, yes. OK, so I can talk later? Yeah, you can talk about anything else you'd like, though, at 00:24:12.899 --> 00:24:18.297 - this moment. I can talk about anything else? Anything that's not on the agenda, yeah. Can I advocate 00:24:18.297 --> 00:24:23.695 - for lower parking permits? Go for it, man. Yeah, let's lower the parking tickets. IU parking tickets 00:24:23.695 --> 00:24:25.886 - are $50 a ticket. Let's lower it to $20. 00:24:25.986 --> 00:24:32.403 - Let's do that. I think that's a good idea. How much time do I have left? I got another minute. Yeah, 00:24:32.403 --> 00:24:38.884 - you have like two minutes. Oh wow, I got some time. What do we want to talk about? What do we want to 00:24:38.884 --> 00:24:39.646 - talk about? 00:24:41.026 --> 00:24:47.335 - Noah Thompson. My name is Noah Thompson. I'm the chapter president for Young Americans of Liberty here 00:24:47.335 --> 00:24:53.706 - at Indiana University. We are a new chapter here in the states. We are forming this our first semester. 00:24:53.706 --> 00:25:00.015 - The organization is trying to expand into Indiana. So I'll get off my soapbox for just a second there. 00:25:00.015 --> 00:25:06.263 - But yeah, no, I think I can't say anything about flock. I was going to say something about flock. Oh, 00:25:06.263 --> 00:25:08.958 - man. There will be. Yes, there will be. OK. 00:25:11.490 --> 00:25:18.691 - Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think a minute is good. Thank you, thank you for the time. I prepare, okay, 100%. 00:25:18.691 --> 00:25:25.963 - Thank you, thank you so much. 100%, 100%. We'll see you here in a little bit, all right. Would anybody 00:25:25.963 --> 00:25:33.094 - else like to give comment on things that are not on the agenda? Or interpretive dance or a song, no? 00:25:33.094 --> 00:25:37.118 - Oh, well this is unfortunate. Anyone online? Okay, well. 00:25:37.250 --> 00:25:43.865 - Moving right along then we'll have another chance at the end. Okay, so Appointments to boards 00:25:43.865 --> 00:25:51.042 - and commissions. Do we have any I think we have a memo from Clark Bolton. Did you want to speak on it 00:25:51.042 --> 00:25:58.220 - or? No, okay any appointments folks Okay Any motions then? Yes councilmember Stasberg. Well on behalf 00:25:58.220 --> 00:25:59.838 - of interview committee 00:26:00.642 --> 00:26:07.872 - I'd like to recommend appointment of Justice Belton to seat c2 for the Commission on the status of black 00:26:07.872 --> 00:26:15.378 - males second Motion and second any discussion or questions? All right, all those in favor of the appointment 00:26:15.378 --> 00:26:22.333 - to seat c2 on the Commission of status of black males say aye aye Any opposed? All right that motion 00:26:22.333 --> 00:26:30.046 - carries. Thank you very much. Are there any other appointments or motions? Council president is sorry I believe 00:26:30.242 --> 00:26:36.629 - Either attorneys Rossman or Alan just have a brief update on the potential removal for the Historic 00:26:36.629 --> 00:26:43.463 - Preservation Commission just because it's on the agenda. I think it would be nice to pass over to attorney 00:26:43.463 --> 00:26:48.062 - Alan. Thank you. Thank you Alan contract attorney for the City Council. 00:26:48.162 --> 00:26:53.366 - If you'll recall, there was a matter of the HPC commissioner potential removal that was recommended 00:26:53.366 --> 00:26:58.622 - to the interview committee that interview committee has met, as under the council's rules, interview 00:26:58.622 --> 00:27:03.930 - committees can only present their reports in writing. And so I think there was a reference to that in 00:27:03.930 --> 00:27:09.238 - this agenda through the clerk's memo. However, it can't be voted on until the committee has delivered 00:27:09.238 --> 00:27:14.078 - its report in writing to the council, and then it can be voted on, which would happen at the 00:27:14.146 --> 00:27:20.852 - The next meeting and I do apologize for that delay. We understand that this has gone on for quite a 00:27:20.852 --> 00:27:27.558 - while Parliamentarian are we able to suspend our rules so that we can proceed with the matter or is 00:27:27.558 --> 00:27:34.332 - this an unsuspendable type of thing? I don't believe it is I wouldn't recommend it. Oh recommend it. 00:27:34.332 --> 00:27:37.886 - Okay, I don't I mean, I think my concern is with the 00:27:38.210 --> 00:27:44.344 - Yeah my concern is just that we have said to to the individual multiple times now to show up to multiple 00:27:44.344 --> 00:27:50.478 - meetings and then multiple times saying no it just feels I mean in addition to I think I mean I'll spare 00:27:50.478 --> 00:27:56.321 - my personal opinions but I just think that this is a little bit disrespectful to the individual. If 00:27:56.321 --> 00:28:02.163 - you all would like to suspend your rules that could be done by a motion and a second and two thirds 00:28:02.163 --> 00:28:07.070 - majority of the council. I can't see what would you like to. I mean I'm sure I can. 00:28:08.002 --> 00:28:15.658 - Anyone no councilman Slasberg Suspend our rules regarding reports from committees and allow a verbal 00:28:15.658 --> 00:28:23.239 - report from interview committees team see regarding the removal of Reynard cross from the HPC Maybe 00:28:23.239 --> 00:28:30.971 - I don't is he is he yeah, there's a motion in a second any discussion As a point of order, I think we 00:28:30.971 --> 00:28:37.566 - need two-thirds majority to suspend the rules so we should probably have a roll call I 00:28:38.018 --> 00:28:50.073 - Thank you. Any questions or discussion? OK, will the clerk please call the roll. Mr. Stossberg? Yes. 00:28:50.073 --> 00:29:02.008 - Piedmont Smith? Yes. Zulek? Yes. Vasari? Yes. Daly? No. Rallo? No. Roth? No. All right, that motion 00:29:02.008 --> 00:29:06.782 - does not carry, unless I'm bad at math. 00:29:07.266 --> 00:29:14.002 - Yeah, okay. Thank you. All right Well with with with apologies that does not carry so we will not be 00:29:14.002 --> 00:29:20.805 - discussing that today councilmember Stossberg the people my recollection last time we dealt with this 00:29:20.805 --> 00:29:27.741 - was that we actually directed Like as part of that motion directed the interview committee to come back 00:29:27.741 --> 00:29:34.544 - at this meeting to deal with it So does that mean and this may be an attorney question does that mean 00:29:34.544 --> 00:29:35.678 - that we have to? 00:29:36.002 --> 00:29:44.154 - Continue this again to the next meeting Ideally that is how that would work is that there would now 00:29:44.154 --> 00:29:52.551 - be because of if the council didn't move to suspend its rules to have that in writing that there would 00:29:52.551 --> 00:30:01.111 - be another motion to Hear this at a definite date. So the next regular session meeting would be November 00:30:01.111 --> 00:30:05.758 - 4th on a Wednesday Okay, I guess I'll move then that the 00:30:07.138 --> 00:30:15.255 - Item concerning removal of rain our cross from the Historic Preservation Commission be continuing to 00:30:15.255 --> 00:30:23.453 - our next regular session on November 4th Second all right, there's a motion and a second all those in 00:30:23.453 --> 00:30:31.490 - favor Sorry discussion Councilman Smith. Yes. I wanted to add something to that So I'm on interview 00:30:31.490 --> 00:30:34.142 - committee see and I did vote for 00:30:36.130 --> 00:30:44.979 - for removal of this individual at the interview committee see meeting. But I feel now that we need to 00:30:44.979 --> 00:30:54.261 - be more specific as to why we recommend removal. We need to give notice to the commission member regarding 00:30:54.261 --> 00:31:03.197 - the specific conduct the provision of the code of conduct that it's violates and the connection to his 00:31:03.197 --> 00:31:05.886 - fitness to serve and then give 00:31:06.114 --> 00:31:12.492 - that individual at least five days to respond. So I just wanted to put that on the record. I at the 00:31:12.492 --> 00:31:19.252 - time of the interview committee meeting I had not reviewed what was done at a previous when we previously 00:31:19.252 --> 00:31:25.758 - had a similar issue come up with a commissioner. Things are a little different now because we do have 00:31:25.758 --> 00:31:32.199 - the code of conduct that we didn't have three years ago. But I think those steps do need to be taken 00:31:32.199 --> 00:31:34.878 - before we vote on removal. So I wanted to 00:31:35.234 --> 00:31:43.453 - State that for the record. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Councilman Zulek I believe all of those 00:31:43.453 --> 00:31:51.672 - things were done. I think that Perhaps clerk Bolden could speak on that a bit but just in general I 00:31:51.672 --> 00:31:59.973 - think this is a glaring example of our inability to make any type of swift decision this has been on 00:31:59.973 --> 00:32:02.110 - the docket since July and 00:32:02.530 --> 00:32:10.943 - It shouldn't have gone to the interview committee because we all should have been able to make a decision 00:32:10.943 --> 00:32:18.958 - at the time of the initial vote. Yes as the HPC liaison this has been a very frustrating process for 00:32:18.958 --> 00:32:26.260 - everyone involved I'm sure including all of our commissioners. So clerk Bolden yes in terms 00:32:26.260 --> 00:32:28.958 - of the recommendation for removal 00:32:29.090 --> 00:32:36.193 - there was a letter that was sent to Mr. Cross indicating the reasons for his potential remover removal 00:32:36.193 --> 00:32:43.296 - and referencing the exact points of the code of conduct that were done. I believe Mr. Allen can expand 00:32:43.296 --> 00:32:50.882 - on that. I think he has a copy of it that was actually sent out from him. So if you need any more information 00:32:50.882 --> 00:32:53.502 - about that as well and I believe that 00:32:53.602 --> 00:32:59.577 - Jennifer Crossley reached out and spoke to Mr. Cross or at least communicated with him and other staff 00:32:59.577 --> 00:33:05.668 - members which I'm pretty sure based on some of the emails and reports that I saw that she copied council 00:33:05.668 --> 00:33:11.469 - members several times on the details of the situation along with copies of the letters meetings and 00:33:11.469 --> 00:33:15.646 - links to anything that you needed to reference to make the decision and 00:33:17.922 --> 00:33:24.705 - And just to add a little bit more the HPC hasn't had meetings because of the lack of quorum so it is 00:33:24.705 --> 00:33:31.892 - interfering with some of the business of the city. And since I told you earlier before the meeting started 00:33:31.892 --> 00:33:38.944 - I'll say it again. Do not leave the meeting without stopping by my desk. Thank you. Any other discussion 00:33:38.944 --> 00:33:45.861 - before we take the vote. All right. When the vote on the table is to continue this to our next meeting 00:33:45.861 --> 00:33:47.742 - all those in favor say aye. 00:33:47.938 --> 00:33:56.324 - Any opposed. Okay. That motion carries. We'll discuss this on what's the date. I'm sorry November 4th. 00:33:56.324 --> 00:34:05.035 - Okay. Let's move to first readings. I move that ordinance twenty twenty six dash twenty nine be introduced 00:34:05.035 --> 00:34:13.503 - and read by the clerk by title and synopsis only second motion a second. Any discussion. Will the clerk 00:34:13.503 --> 00:34:15.294 - please call the roll. 00:34:16.130 --> 00:34:26.466 - Oh thank you very much. Can all those in favor say aye. Sorry. Yeah go ahead. So I want to move to hold 00:34:26.466 --> 00:34:34.814 - limited discussion on ordinance 20 dash 26 29 to suspend the rules in order to hear 00:34:34.978 --> 00:34:42.203 - A brief presentation quick point of just a silly thing. But because there's already a motion on the 00:34:42.203 --> 00:34:49.500 - table we have to remove that motion before you do that motion if that's OK. So or and or vote on the 00:34:49.500 --> 00:34:56.725 - motion on the table. Yes. So who's been motioned and seconded. If it's a point of procedure is it a 00:34:56.725 --> 00:34:59.326 - point of procedure comes member of. 00:35:00.834 --> 00:35:08.022 - We don't have to waste too much time doing this if it's okay, can we just let's withdraw that councilmember 00:35:08.022 --> 00:35:15.010 - rough? Okay, who made the motion? Can you please withdraw the motion? I'm sorry to touch. Oh, yeah Okay, 00:35:15.010 --> 00:35:22.132 - thank you very much councilmember F. Go ahead. Thank you. I just want to move to hold a limited discussion 00:35:22.132 --> 00:35:24.062 - on ordinance 22 20 26 29 and 00:35:24.194 --> 00:35:30.307 - Suspend the rules in order to hear a brief presentation from the sponsor of the ordinance and limit 00:35:30.307 --> 00:35:36.543 - discussion to five minutes of Council questions in and this amending So so we would we still have the 00:35:36.543 --> 00:35:42.656 - 20 minutes that we've dedicated to it Or are you limit the whole thing to five minutes limiting the 00:35:42.656 --> 00:35:48.892 - whole thing? I mean while limiting the five minute discussion plus what I think will be like a two or 00:35:48.892 --> 00:35:52.254 - three minute initial presentation by the sponsor, okay 00:35:52.386 --> 00:35:58.659 - This would supersede the 20 minutes my understanding it would still have to be under 20 minutes But 00:35:58.659 --> 00:36:05.121 - the council discussion following the presentation could be limited to five minutes Okay, so the motion 00:36:05.121 --> 00:36:11.519 - is to limit council discussion to five minutes. We'll still have public comment on it if necessary Is 00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:17.918 - there a second to that motion? Second okay motion and a second all those in favor say aye Any opposed 00:36:19.714 --> 00:36:28.660 - Okay, that motion carries. All right, is there any other motions? I move that ordinance 2026-29 be introduced 00:36:28.660 --> 00:36:36.793 - and read by the clerk by title and synopsis only. Second. Motion and second. All those in favor say 00:36:36.793 --> 00:36:41.022 - aye. Aye. Any opposed? Clerk, will you kindly read? 00:36:42.850 --> 00:36:48.258 - Ordinance 2026-29, amending the Bloomington Municipal Code to prohibit the development, deployment, 00:36:48.258 --> 00:36:54.206 - or delivery of superintelligence with the City of Bloomington, Indiana. Council sponsor, Councilmember Rallo. 00:36:54.306 --> 00:37:00.060 - The synopsis is as follows. Ordinance 2026 dash 29 prohibits the distribution and deployment 00:37:00.060 --> 00:37:06.246 - of superintelligent artificial general intelligence, AGI or ASI within the city of Bloomington, the 00:37:06.246 --> 00:37:12.557 - common council explicitly recognizes that uniform state level regulation of superintelligence systems 00:37:12.557 --> 00:37:14.846 - is optimal for long term governance. 00:37:14.946 --> 00:37:22.145 - This ordinance adds a new chapter to the Bloomington Municipal Code, which is enacted as an interim 00:37:22.145 --> 00:37:29.416 - public safety measure to protect the city of Bloomington only during the period of state and federal 00:37:29.416 --> 00:37:37.119 - legislative inaction and omission. I move to discuss ordinance twenty twenty six dash twenty nine. Second. 00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:44.894 - Tremendous. We'll we have to vote on that. All those in favor of this say aye. Aye. Any opposed. All right. 00:37:45.634 --> 00:37:53.746 - Thank you for this opportunity. Think of this ordinance as a companion to resolution 2026-10 that we 00:37:53.746 --> 00:38:02.419 - unanimously adopted on June 10th, which was to acknowledge the existential risk of artificial intelligence. 00:38:02.419 --> 00:38:10.531 - But just to be clear, this prohibits deployment of ASI, which is artificial superintelligence. It is 00:38:10.531 --> 00:38:13.342 - not an ordinary AI, so this is not 00:38:13.570 --> 00:38:22.058 - Prohibiting AI generally speaking, but that specific type so narrow AI can be very beneficial for humanity 00:38:22.058 --> 00:38:29.990 - Obviously it needs guardrails But this is an autonomous super intelligence that the developers have 00:38:29.990 --> 00:38:38.002 - stated could the developers themselves have stated could result in our extinction This is an AI that 00:38:38.002 --> 00:38:42.206 - would as being created to supersede human beings and 00:38:43.074 --> 00:38:50.277 - It is also being endowed with the ability to recursively self-improve, which means that it designs and 00:38:50.277 --> 00:38:56.780 - improves on itself without human intervention. So this is a means by which it can accelerate 00:38:56.780 --> 00:39:03.843 - its intelligence, far exceeding human beings. Therein lies the danger. So the AI safety experts that 00:39:03.843 --> 00:39:11.185 - have been studying this and worrying about it for many years, decades even, say that when that threshold 00:39:11.185 --> 00:39:12.094 - is achieved, 00:39:13.250 --> 00:39:21.201 - Humanity would lose control and could never regain it This is sounds like sci-fi, but it's not Because 00:39:21.201 --> 00:39:28.920 - it has because experts who have been developing it warrant have been warning about it as as well as 00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:36.793 - the developers themselves A number of whistleblowers have left the companies creating this technology 00:39:36.793 --> 00:39:42.814 - And have quit the Warren that the models are becoming extremely dangerous and 00:39:43.586 --> 00:39:51.364 - and should be halted in their development. They warned that the threshold could occur within the next 00:39:51.364 --> 00:39:59.065 - year or so. This is because model capabilities are growing exponentially, not linearly. So there's a 00:39:59.065 --> 00:40:06.843 - doubling time. So think of a chat GPT that couldn't solve high school math a couple of years ago, but 00:40:06.843 --> 00:40:12.638 - is now solving millennium prize winning mathematics problems that have been 00:40:13.346 --> 00:40:22.163 - perplexing mathematicians for a century. To date, the models have been shown to exhibit a series of 00:40:22.163 --> 00:40:30.893 - aberrant, deceptive, and self-directed behaviors, including collusion amongst themselves, escaping 00:40:30.893 --> 00:40:39.710 - containment, and breaking into other companies, as well as their own company in the case of OpenAI. 00:40:40.002 --> 00:40:47.592 - To date, Congress and states have not acted to prevent this, even though it has been apparent for years. 00:40:47.592 --> 00:40:54.892 - People have been warning about this for years. And meanwhile, the industries themselves are spending 00:40:54.892 --> 00:41:02.121 - hundreds of millions of dollars to prevent that regulation. So are we helpless? I don't think so. I 00:41:02.121 --> 00:41:09.566 - think that cities, municipalities at the local level can take action to ban this dangerous technology. 00:41:10.370 --> 00:41:17.966 - We wouldn't allow people to develop nuclear weapons. But we have laws against that. Federal government 00:41:17.966 --> 00:41:25.415 - would act on that. But here, there's a void. And so this ordinance seeks to fill that void. And with 00:41:25.415 --> 00:41:33.159 - it comes liability for these companies because they cannot be producing something that would be illegal. 00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:39.870 - So that's what I have to say. But I would like to play a two-minute video of a compilation 00:41:39.970 --> 00:41:47.774 - of some expert opinion including the developers themselves. Could you Jacob could you play that video. 00:42:13.218 --> 00:42:21.613 - AI is certainly powerful enough to drive events that cause a billion deaths. Jacob Coxen has left Anthropic 00:42:21.613 --> 00:42:29.541 - sounding the alarm about the dangers of artificial intelligence, writing in part, the people building 00:42:29.541 --> 00:42:37.391 - AI earnestly believe that it could kill us all by the end of the decade. But I think the development 00:42:37.391 --> 00:42:42.910 - of full artificial intelligence could spell the end of the human race. 00:42:45.730 --> 00:42:52.020 - Humans develop artificial intelligence that would take off on its own and redesign itself at 00:42:52.020 --> 00:42:58.784 - an ever-increasing rate. Humans, who are limited by slow biological evolution, couldn't compete and 00:42:58.784 --> 00:43:05.750 - would be superseded. We've never created beings that may soon be smarter than us. We don't know what's 00:43:05.750 --> 00:43:12.649 - going to happen. We should obviously be cautious. It would be very foolish to say there was like a 1% 00:43:12.649 --> 00:43:15.422 - chance. Nobody knows how to estimate it. 00:43:15.714 --> 00:43:23.422 - A 10% chance seems not an unreasonable estimate to me. What is the worst case scenario that you're worried 00:43:23.422 --> 00:43:30.841 - about? Well, the worst case scenario is human extinction. These are risks we cannot afford. We haven't 00:43:30.841 --> 00:43:38.332 - the faintest idea what we're doing. We don't know how these systems work. We don't know how to get them 00:43:38.332 --> 00:43:42.078 - to do anything or to stop them from doing anything. 00:43:42.754 --> 00:43:49.604 - I think once this basic message comes out that this isn't an arms race, it's a suicide race, where everybody 00:43:49.604 --> 00:43:56.013 - loses if anybody's AI goes out of control, it really changes the whole dynamic. And the bad case, and 00:43:56.013 --> 00:44:02.423 - I think this is like important to say, is like lights out for all of us. I don't know. I'm relatively 00:44:02.423 --> 00:44:08.770 - an optimist, so I think there's a 25% chance that things go really, really badly. I think the danger 00:44:08.770 --> 00:44:10.718 - of AI is much greater than the 00:44:10.882 --> 00:44:18.579 - the danger of nuclear warheads by a lot. And nobody would suggest that we allow anyone to just build 00:44:18.579 --> 00:44:26.352 - nuclear warheads if they want. That would be insane. And mock my words, AI is far more dangerous than 00:44:26.352 --> 00:44:34.354 - nukes. We will have created the most dangerous thing ever. This makes nuclear weapons look like nothing. 00:44:34.354 --> 00:44:40.222 - Thank you for your attention, and I'm open for questions. Thank you so much. 00:44:40.674 --> 00:44:51.518 - Any questions from councilmembers at this time? Comments or input? Okay. 00:44:51.810 --> 00:44:58.576 - We do comments right now to you before we get well my my Kind of general comment on this as I as I said 00:44:58.576 --> 00:45:05.081 - to councilmember earlier I have some concerns with some of the specific language especially related 00:45:05.081 --> 00:45:11.782 - to dissolution of Prohibition because it requires them an affirmative vote of 95% of registered voters 00:45:11.782 --> 00:45:18.418 - within the city of Bloomington and that many registered voters never vote for anything Sadly it we're 00:45:18.418 --> 00:45:21.150 - gonna have an election soon go vote but I 00:45:21.922 --> 00:45:30.017 - Don't want to do anything that we can't undo if you know what I mean, which is maybe part of this whole 00:45:30.017 --> 00:45:37.957 - Debate in the first place, but so just a couple concerns about some of the language in here and Yeah, 00:45:37.957 --> 00:45:45.897 - thanks. Thank you so much any other council comments councilmember Piedmont Smith I do have questions 00:45:45.897 --> 00:45:50.334 - about how this would be enforced and implemented however 00:45:51.714 --> 00:46:00.313 - I'm willing to give it a shot. I think we need to try to do whatever we can as elected officials to 00:46:00.313 --> 00:46:09.083 - protect humanity from this high likelihood of our own demise through ASI. And as long as this doesn't 00:46:09.083 --> 00:46:17.854 - commit us to anything that's going to get us sued, I think we should do it. Thank you. Thank you. Any 00:46:17.854 --> 00:46:19.230 - other comments? 00:46:20.706 --> 00:46:27.229 - Now, I think by your own rules, you cannot come. Can you come? Okay, go ahead, Councilor Marelo. All 00:46:27.229 --> 00:46:34.010 - I wanted to say is ultimately it's up to the council to implement this and it would be up to the council 00:46:34.010 --> 00:46:40.985 - to withdraw it. So I absolutely think that what I meant to imply is that that threshold of such a dangerous 00:46:40.985 --> 00:46:47.572 - technology should be very, very high in terms of consent of the public. Nobody has consented to this, 00:46:47.572 --> 00:46:48.670 - to my knowledge. 00:46:48.994 --> 00:46:55.846 - putting of rolling the dice on humanity And so I'll make adjustments I'd be happy to to fashion some 00:46:55.846 --> 00:47:02.631 - amendments to that Thank you any other comments council members Okay, and we'll now go to a time of 00:47:02.631 --> 00:47:09.415 - public comment if anybody would like to comment on ordinance 20 26 29 Now is your opportunity to do 00:47:09.415 --> 00:47:16.404 - so you'll have is anybody going to comment if you just raise your hand So I get a sense roughly. Okay, 00:47:16.404 --> 00:47:18.846 - you'll have three minutes. Go ahead 00:47:21.058 --> 00:47:29.716 - My name is Thomas Westgard. I live in Bloomington. I Just wanted to comment briefly that new technologies 00:47:29.716 --> 00:47:38.130 - are often the topic of a lot of Debate and it seems to me that the crucial point is how much it's been 00:47:38.130 --> 00:47:45.726 - tested how much opportunity there's been to see how to use it safely and the second point is 00:47:46.018 --> 00:47:54.018 - whether somebody has a profit motive to argue that it is more safe than it is. I would draw your attention 00:47:54.018 --> 00:48:01.868 - simply to two examples, thalidomide. We have had examples in medicine, food, other sorts of technologies 00:48:01.868 --> 00:48:09.345 - that are not adequately tested because somebody has a chance to make a bunch of money killing other 00:48:09.345 --> 00:48:15.102 - human beings with their untested product. So I don't know if this ordinance, 00:48:15.234 --> 00:48:23.316 - The right one or not. I'll leave that to your study judgment, but I would just make the point that Technology 00:48:23.316 --> 00:48:30.737 - isn't always good. This one is being rushed out by some very greedy people who obviously do not have 00:48:30.737 --> 00:48:38.452 - the public's best interest in mind and so I think councilmember Rolo's caution is appropriate and That's 00:48:38.452 --> 00:48:43.742 - the end of my comments. Thank you. Thank you very much Next in chambers 00:48:48.066 --> 00:48:54.402 - Am I good? Yeah, just say your name or something similar to it. Barry. I just wanted to start by saying, 00:48:54.402 --> 00:49:00.497 - of course, you should block AI nonsense from enshitifying our city, but artificial superintelligence 00:49:00.497 --> 00:49:07.135 - is not a real thing. You can vote yes or no on this because it literally does not matter. It's a distraction, 00:49:07.135 --> 00:49:11.902 - so you don't do anything about the harm tech CEOs are actually using AI to do. 00:49:12.002 --> 00:49:17.296 - So recursive self-improvement, as described by conspiracy theorists like that guy, is largely based 00:49:17.296 --> 00:49:22.961 - on the Terminator movies. An AI agent is a Python loop hooked up to a large language model. It is entirely 00:49:22.961 --> 00:49:28.414 - possible for an LLM to waste thousands of dollars hallucinating and trying to type functions into your 00:49:28.414 --> 00:49:33.761 - PC's command prompt that could put malware on someone else's computer or your own via a bad website. 00:49:33.761 --> 00:49:35.614 - But that's literally what this is. 00:49:35.906 --> 00:49:40.622 - In order for an AI agent to take over the city or whatever bullshit you believe in, you would have to 00:49:40.622 --> 00:49:45.292 - waste billions rebuilding all our city's utilities in the stupidest and least efficient way possible 00:49:45.292 --> 00:49:50.286 - so that they could all be run remotely without a single human intervention. You would then have to purchase 00:49:50.286 --> 00:49:54.910 - a million dollar server rack of Nvidia GPUs to run the thing. Lock that server rack in a vault that 00:49:54.910 --> 00:49:59.765 - you cannot reopen, put hundreds of expensive solar panels on its roof so it doesn't need to be connected 00:49:59.765 --> 00:50:04.389 - to the power grid, and then cover the walls in jelly so no one could climb up and unplug it. That's 00:50:04.389 --> 00:50:04.990 - all this is. 00:50:05.634 --> 00:50:10.713 - This is of course presuming helicopters don't exist. That might give you generously a week or two before 00:50:10.713 --> 00:50:15.696 - there's some kind of hardware issue a human person would have to solve and the whole thing shuts down. 00:50:15.696 --> 00:50:20.678 - If we, human beings, because that's who have made all these decisions, do all of that, then we deserve 00:50:20.678 --> 00:50:25.612 - whatever callback function the LLM hallucinates the Python script should run. When an AI hallucinates 00:50:25.612 --> 00:50:30.014 - and tells a drone to target a civilian, that's not a mystical superpower. That's a glitch. 00:50:30.210 --> 00:50:36.340 - A bunch of dumb people in our government decided to plug bad software into a murder weapon. That's bad 00:50:36.340 --> 00:50:42.590 - actors using bad technology. It'll be stopped when we hold those people accountable, not their computer. 00:50:42.978 --> 00:50:49.445 - which will never happen if you keep telling yourselves ghost stories about super computers with literal 00:50:49.445 --> 00:50:55.663 - spooky piano underneath it. That was fucking disgusting. What is wrong with you? The only reason to 00:50:55.663 --> 00:51:02.317 - think about artificial super intelligence is if you want to ignore the problems caused by AI that actually 00:51:02.317 --> 00:51:06.110 - exist, like ALPR surveillance cameras. Thank you. Thank you. 00:51:06.882 --> 00:51:11.955 - All right, are there more people in chambers? If you plan to make a comment, it would be very helpful 00:51:11.955 --> 00:51:16.979 - if you don't have to, but it would be nice if you stood in line just so we know. But go ahead. Sorry 00:51:16.979 --> 00:51:21.953 - about that. No, no, no. I was just trying to save time. Go for it. My name is Jesse Edwards. I live 00:51:21.953 --> 00:51:26.927 - here in town as well. Regarding artificial super intelligence, artificial general. Could you please 00:51:26.927 --> 00:51:32.150 - speak into the mic? I'm so sorry. Can you hear me? All right. Regarding artificial general intelligence, 00:51:32.150 --> 00:51:35.582 - we're getting close to that, but it's still, as far as reality goes, 00:51:35.714 --> 00:51:41.724 - Artificial intelligence is still very narrow scope. You'll have LLMs that are very good at a specific 00:51:41.724 --> 00:51:47.616 - set of things because that's what they've been trained on. Artificial general intelligence is still 00:51:47.616 --> 00:51:53.684 - out ahead of us in the future, but artificial super intelligence may or may not ever exist. That said, 00:51:53.684 --> 00:51:59.576 - in the event of artificial super intelligence, do you really think passing any kind of law to limit 00:51:59.576 --> 00:52:04.702 - it from a human side is going to be effective in the slightest? Just food for thought. 00:52:05.154 --> 00:52:24.283 - That's all I got. Thank you so much. Next comment in chambers. Hi my name is Elijah and I won't use 00:52:24.283 --> 00:52:32.126 - anywhere near the full three minutes but 00:52:32.322 --> 00:52:39.635 - I would just ask how AGI and ASI would be defined to put into law. Are those synonyms? How would we 00:52:39.635 --> 00:52:47.168 - decide that Google Gemini, that keeps coming back up on my phone, that's not ASI, but the Terminator's 00:52:47.168 --> 00:52:54.627 - definitely crossed the line. So we're in that middle ground. Would we actually put into law that yes, 00:52:54.627 --> 00:52:59.966 - this should be banned or no, this one's fine? And that would probably be 00:53:00.418 --> 00:53:06.540 - Discussion for the council, however, you want to proceed with that, but that's my time. Thank you so 00:53:06.540 --> 00:53:12.783 - much We'll go online. Is there anybody online who'd like to comment? Okay person person one online You 00:53:12.783 --> 00:53:18.844 - should be able to unmute now Okay. Good evening council members. My name is Jamie shoal broke local 00:53:18.844 --> 00:53:25.026 - resident and grower health coach and former because the commissioner I'm here to support ordinance 20 00:53:25.026 --> 00:53:28.542 - 20 26 29. Here's a little story yesterday. I asked Claude 00:53:28.642 --> 00:53:34.927 - to check a business email about Fruit Tree Guild for typos. The AI silently inserted an entirely new 00:53:34.927 --> 00:53:41.149 - sentence. When I called it out, it essentially said, you're right. I should not have done that. I'm 00:53:41.149 --> 00:53:47.496 - sure my experience isn't unique. If AI can quietly manipulate mundane email, imagine that behavior at 00:53:47.496 --> 00:53:53.719 - scale, acting faster than any human can respond. Many may think this ordinance isn't applicable for 00:53:53.719 --> 00:53:56.830 - a city government to address, but I beg to never. 00:53:57.154 --> 00:54:03.679 - Right after my email incident, I read about the cyber attack in France where hackers programmed supermarket 00:54:03.679 --> 00:54:06.942 - freezers up to 122 degrees, spoiling the food supply. 00:54:07.202 --> 00:54:12.965 - This attack is exactly what I warned this council about in an email regarding food as infrastructure 00:54:12.965 --> 00:54:18.728 - and the vulnerabilities of our food supply. This applies directly to where food technology is headed 00:54:18.728 --> 00:54:24.948 - with lab-grown meat. Should such a business be created in Bloomington, it would depend on internet-connected 00:54:24.948 --> 00:54:30.654 - bioreactors, a massive new target inside our food supply. Since the spring's hugging face incident, 00:54:30.754 --> 00:54:37.171 - We know AI can swarm, lie, fake alignment, collaborate with other AI agents, choose to quote die for 00:54:37.171 --> 00:54:43.651 - a collective goal, create language, drop persistent back doors to retain access, and more. Because of 00:54:43.651 --> 00:54:50.322 - rapid recursive self-improvement, it is a black pin doors box. What happens if a coordinated cyber swarm 00:54:50.322 --> 00:54:57.310 - attacks not just one vulnerability, but our smart meters, grocery stores, and water resources simultaneously? 00:54:57.506 --> 00:55:03.793 - This is not far fetched given automation IOT and Bill Gates warning that infrastructure could be a target. 00:55:03.793 --> 00:55:09.904 - This isn't science fiction. Earlier this year President Trump signed executive orders formally shifting 00:55:09.904 --> 00:55:15.134 - federal terminology to treat superintelligence as a recognized national threat category. 00:55:15.266 --> 00:55:22.211 - Council member Rollo is simply writing a localized enforcement mechanism for a threat our federal government 00:55:22.211 --> 00:55:28.774 - has already recognized. Food sovereignty teaches us that diversified local networks are more resilient 00:55:28.774 --> 00:55:35.210 - than centralized systems. This ordinance protects local physical infrastructure. At its heart, it is 00:55:35.210 --> 00:55:41.709 - community of care. Please support ordinance 202629. Thank you. Thank you very much. I understand that 00:55:41.709 --> 00:55:45.150 - there's a second person online. Second person online. 00:55:46.146 --> 00:55:54.854 - Take it away. Hi, this is Paul Rousseau. I strongly support the ordinance by Council Member Rollo, and 00:55:54.854 --> 00:56:03.562 - I applaud his efforts. Nihilistic technophile naysayers seem not to understand the phrase beyond human 00:56:03.562 --> 00:56:12.862 - control, which is exactly at the heart of the warnings by so many experts. Thank you. Thank you so very much. 00:56:13.954 --> 00:56:23.767 - We have we started at seven Eight and what time is it now? Okay, so we don't have any more time unless 00:56:23.767 --> 00:56:33.485 - anybody would like to extend This time. All right, so we will come back to council any final comments 00:56:33.485 --> 00:56:43.774 - in the last 30 seconds here comes one brah, would you like to Have that time Sure, just to say that This is 00:56:44.930 --> 00:56:52.793 - We're hearing this from experts. This is not me. That's just stating this. This is these are people 00:56:52.793 --> 00:57:00.184 - in a safety that have been working in that field for decades that are warning about this. And 00:57:00.184 --> 00:57:08.283 - it's fortunately because of whistleblowers like Jacob Cox and who gave up probably millions of dollars 00:57:08.283 --> 00:57:13.630 - in invested equity in opening eye to come forward that we know that 00:57:13.858 --> 00:57:23.566 - It's achieving these these dangerous levels that need to stop. It doesn't need to know it. Once it's 00:57:23.566 --> 00:57:33.658 - superintelligent we can anticipate how it may take control because we will be defenseless at that point. 00:57:33.658 --> 00:57:37.118 - So that's the worry of the experts. 00:57:38.754 --> 00:57:47.575 - Thank you so much, and I'm so sorry that we've run out of time for this portion of the agenda Are there 00:57:47.575 --> 00:57:56.651 - any motions councilmember ruff? Make a motion to forward this to a future meeting I Move to send ordinance 00:57:56.651 --> 00:58:05.726 - 2026 dash 29 to November 4th second reading Motion and a second all those in favor say aye aye any opposed 00:58:06.370 --> 00:58:14.598 - Thank you very much. Are there any other motions? I move that ordinance twenty twenty six dash thirty 00:58:14.598 --> 00:58:23.068 - be introduced and read by the clerk by title and synopsis only motion in a second. Any discussion seeing 00:58:23.068 --> 00:58:29.118 - none. All those in favor say aye. Any opposed. Will the clerk kindly read. 00:58:34.498 --> 00:58:41.605 - 26-30 author Yeah authorizing issuance of city of Bloomington, Indiana general obligation bonds series 00:58:41.605 --> 00:58:48.573 - 2026 to provide funds to finance the cost of certain capital improvements and equipping projects and 00:58:48.573 --> 00:58:55.887 - incidental expenses in connection therewith and on the issuance of the Wow and on account of the issuance 00:58:55.887 --> 00:59:02.786 - of the bonds and appropriating the proceeds derived from the sale of such bonds the council sponsor 00:59:02.786 --> 00:59:03.614 - is Stasberg 00:59:03.778 --> 00:59:09.962 - The synopsis is as follows. This ordinance approves the issuance of general obligation bonds of the 00:59:09.962 --> 00:59:16.271 - city of Bloomington Indiana under Indiana code thirty six four six nineteen in an aggregate principal 00:59:16.271 --> 00:59:22.764 - amount not to exceed six million eight hundred sixty eight thousand dollars for the purpose of financing 00:59:22.764 --> 00:59:29.134 - certain capital projects and investments throughout the city related to safety improvements. Thank you 00:59:29.134 --> 00:59:32.350 - Claire. I move to discuss ordinance 20 26 dash 3 0. 00:59:33.122 --> 00:59:39.459 - Second all those in favor of discussing Any opposed All right, I think we will did you want to begin 00:59:39.459 --> 00:59:46.110 - or shall we so we'll say brief words from councilman Stossberg and then we'll hand over to the controller 00:59:46.722 --> 00:59:53.967 - Thank you. I think that mostly, you know, we mostly need to hang hand it over to the controller but 00:59:53.967 --> 01:00:01.357 - I just wanted to explain to everybody why I decided to sponsor this bond ordinance. And it's actually 01:00:01.357 --> 01:00:05.342 - it's in the memo that was sent to us in background. So 01:00:05.762 --> 01:00:10.839 - The sentence that I'm calling out is debt financing also provides a better alignment between the taxpayers 01:00:10.839 --> 01:00:15.584 - who pay for an improvement and the taxpayers who benefit from it. Because when I think about a bond 01:00:15.584 --> 01:00:20.565 - it's basically like borrowing money right. We're saying OK so we're going to borrow money and then we're 01:00:20.565 --> 01:00:25.595 - going to pay it back with interest so we can like invest in a thing. And if you compare that to household 01:00:25.595 --> 01:00:30.814 - finances that's not the way I think household finances should run. I think that we should save money and then 01:00:30.914 --> 01:00:38.218 - the thing but I really appreciated how it was framed by our controller Who said well if we do it that 01:00:38.218 --> 01:00:45.523 - way then the taxpayers of now are paying for it But they're not going to get to appreciate it because 01:00:45.523 --> 01:00:53.042 - we're gonna have to say Pay for it for seven years before we get to actually install it or buy the thing 01:00:53.042 --> 01:00:56.766 - and if you get a bond then the taxpayers of now are 01:00:57.058 --> 01:01:02.659 - are paying for it while at the same time they can appreciate it whatever it is in terms of the service. 01:01:02.659 --> 01:01:08.422 - So I hope that that makes sense. That kind of opened my eyes a little bit to the oh that's why governments 01:01:08.422 --> 01:01:14.023 - bond because then the taxpayers who are actually paying for the thing can also be using the thing while 01:01:14.023 --> 01:01:19.624 - they pay for it. So that kind of made a lot of sense to me. And so then it's just kind of an assessment 01:01:19.624 --> 01:01:25.063 - by us of whether we think those things are things that the city needs and that's what staff is going 01:01:25.063 --> 01:01:26.302 - to talk about. Thanks. 01:01:27.938 --> 01:01:34.833 - Wonderful controller. Thank you very much. Good evening, councilmembers. And I particularly appreciate 01:01:34.833 --> 01:01:37.310 - councilmember Stasberg for basically 01:01:37.442 --> 01:01:45.228 - Giving a good portion of what I was planning to talk about but this is a group effort here and so we 01:01:45.228 --> 01:01:52.937 - have with us Corporate council Margie Rice. We have Justin Chang from Reedy financial our financial 01:01:52.937 --> 01:02:00.954 - advisor we have Max Litwin deputy fire chief and Andrew Seaborg from our city engineer and we also have 01:02:00.954 --> 01:02:07.198 - Stephanie Crandall from Barnes and Thornburg who's our bond council, so we'll be 01:02:07.458 --> 01:02:13.984 - Like I said, this will be a team effort I will go through my part as quickly as possible because I think 01:02:13.984 --> 01:02:20.697 - what you probably are most interested in is both the money parts and the projects so councilmember Stasberg 01:02:20.697 --> 01:02:22.686 - already talked about one of our 01:02:22.850 --> 01:02:30.143 - One of the biggest benefits to bond financing is is just better alignment with The benefits that a particular 01:02:30.143 --> 01:02:36.840 - capital investment makes with the taxpayers who are paying front for them So for example our project 01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:43.006 - tonight one of the projects is literally is a firetruck that lasts I think about seven years 01:02:43.874 --> 01:02:51.240 - Yeah, approximately seven years. We're talking about a six to seven year bond if we saved up for seven 01:02:51.240 --> 01:02:58.605 - years for that firetruck You'd have seven years of taxpayers paying and not benefiting and seven years 01:02:58.605 --> 01:03:06.043 - of taxpayers benefiting but not paying the bond allows us to to align that those benefits with the with 01:03:06.043 --> 01:03:07.902 - the costs as well we also 01:03:08.898 --> 01:03:16.103 - I want to provide a little bit of context for our bond request. This is our first issuance in a planned 01:03:16.103 --> 01:03:23.447 - three-year rotating cycle of capital bonds, and the idea is to really do a systematic approach to capital 01:03:23.447 --> 01:03:30.445 - planning, to identify and prioritize major needs, to consider the whole mix of financing sources for 01:03:30.445 --> 01:03:36.126 - those capital needs, which include grants, existing resources, and debt together. 01:03:36.354 --> 01:03:44.253 - To try to match, as we just said, the financing periods to the useful life of the assets. And then also 01:03:44.253 --> 01:03:52.075 - to maintain kind of a manageable debt service so that we still have capacity for future needs. And Mr. 01:03:52.075 --> 01:03:59.746 - Chang from Reedy will talk about that a little bit. We also in general like the idea of issuing both 01:03:59.746 --> 01:04:05.214 - general obligation for the civil city and general obligation for parks. 01:04:05.378 --> 01:04:13.151 - Roughly the same time to continue our investments in both of those areas of capital need because of 01:04:13.151 --> 01:04:21.001 - some kind of unprecedented grant opportunities the parks is pursuing we are not going to be pursuing 01:04:21.001 --> 01:04:29.007 - and matching will only proposing a 2026 geo bond for parks or for the civil city and not for parks and 01:04:29.007 --> 01:04:35.070 - so the parks Companion to this bond would be deferred to 2028 at the earliest 01:04:36.418 --> 01:04:44.668 - The other thing that's important is to situate the capital projects in a more systematic capital improvement 01:04:44.668 --> 01:04:52.312 - plan and this is something that we are It's still in the process of doing at the city We the idea is 01:04:52.312 --> 01:04:59.956 - you plan ahead and we've identified major capital needs from all departments over a five to ten year 01:04:59.956 --> 01:05:02.302 - horizon We prioritize together 01:05:02.434 --> 01:05:10.076 - But based on cost or urgency and also community impact which very much ticks into account Priorities 01:05:10.076 --> 01:05:18.021 - that the council has has established. So for example this civil civil city geo bond that we're proposing 01:05:18.021 --> 01:05:25.890 - tonight is entirely about maintaining and enhancing our assets which is what I believe both the council 01:05:25.890 --> 01:05:31.262 - and the administration have identified as their their top priority and 01:05:31.394 --> 01:05:38.092 - We'll match, you know, our various funding sources to these capital improvements. We're working with 01:05:38.092 --> 01:05:44.923 - our financial advisors, Weedy Financial Group, to integrate the capital plan into the city's long-term 01:05:44.923 --> 01:05:51.754 - operating forecasts, which we've discussed a number of times at the fiscal committee. And just to kind 01:05:51.754 --> 01:05:58.784 - of show you where we are on the capital plan, our first draft is underway. Department heads have provided 01:05:58.784 --> 01:05:59.646 - their input. 01:05:59.746 --> 01:06:06.328 - Reedy has put them together into a draft, but we want to work towards a second iteration that will be 01:06:06.328 --> 01:06:12.974 - more mature To be targeted by year-end. We just haven't had the staff capacity to deal with it but the 01:06:12.974 --> 01:06:19.620 - idea is to add some more narrative and work with and present this first to the fiscal committee before 01:06:19.620 --> 01:06:22.846 - Working towards a broader presentation to council 01:06:24.578 --> 01:06:32.209 - I'm just going to highlight the most important things here. We're talking about maximum bond principle 01:06:32.209 --> 01:06:39.692 - of $6,868,000 with a $7 million appropriation. Why is the appropriation request higher than the bond 01:06:39.692 --> 01:06:41.470 - principle? It's because 01:06:41.954 --> 01:06:48.643 - There will be interest earned on that on that bond principal if unless it's spent all on day one, which 01:06:48.643 --> 01:06:55.139 - is not going to be there's interest earned and so we want to make sure that the council appropriates 01:06:55.139 --> 01:07:00.670 - the ability to use that interest on the project as well as the the principal borrowed 01:07:00.770 --> 01:07:07.653 - We're looking at a maximum interest rate at five point five percent. We don't actually anticipate that 01:07:07.653 --> 01:07:14.603 - that's simply to put guardrails on Where we could possibly go and mr. Chang will talk a little bit more 01:07:14.603 --> 01:07:20.350 - about Interest as well and we're talking about a bond term of just over six six years 01:07:21.026 --> 01:07:27.365 - I don't need to read all the dates in the issuance timeline. I just want to let you all know that We 01:07:27.365 --> 01:07:33.829 - have built into the bond schedule both the mandatory public hearing and second reading at November 4th 01:07:33.829 --> 01:07:40.106 - But also a third reading if you'd like on your November 18th Three meeting that's not mandatory but 01:07:40.106 --> 01:07:45.566 - it is an option for the council if you would like additional discussion or information 01:07:47.330 --> 01:07:55.052 - The this slide provides a list of the the projects along with their estimated Bond costs just understand 01:07:55.052 --> 01:08:02.922 - that these are just estimates at this point and within these categories that funding could shift depending 01:08:02.922 --> 01:08:05.790 - on Where projects actually come in at? 01:08:07.650 --> 01:08:14.787 - But I think now the more interesting part for you is going to actually hear a little bit about the the 01:08:14.787 --> 01:08:21.786 - project So I'm going to hand things over right now to max litwin deputy fire chief to talk about the 01:08:21.786 --> 01:08:28.923 - the aerial platform truck for the fire department Good evening Max litwin deputy chief with fire. I'll 01:08:28.923 --> 01:08:32.318 - speak briefly to fires item as part of this bond 01:08:34.050 --> 01:08:39.901 - An aerial platform truck is an essential piece of equipment for firefighting operations here in Bloomington 01:08:39.901 --> 01:08:45.319 - We only have one and it provides a set of unique capabilities that our other apparatus simply can't 01:08:45.319 --> 01:08:50.737 - So it's essential that we keep on the front line in good working order To speak to just some of the 01:08:50.737 --> 01:08:56.372 - few critical capabilities that it can provide It offers rescue operations to areas that would otherwise 01:08:56.372 --> 01:09:02.494 - be inaccessible I think a high-rise building with a floor fully involved in fire with the victim trapped above a 01:09:02.850 --> 01:09:08.198 - Crews on foot would have difficulty accessing that victim. This truck with its 100 foot hydraulic ladder 01:09:08.198 --> 01:09:13.699 - can quickly and efficiently access that victim and safely extricate them from the exterior of the building. 01:09:13.699 --> 01:09:18.843 - Another critical component it offers would be an elevated master stream, which offers a large volume 01:09:18.843 --> 01:09:23.987 - of water from an elevated position. So an example where that would be important would be a structure 01:09:23.987 --> 01:09:29.284 - fire where the fire had breached the roof and requires a large amount of water from above to extinguish 01:09:29.284 --> 01:09:31.678 - the crews on the ground with hand lines simply 01:09:31.810 --> 01:09:37.667 - can't produce or access other capabilities range from a high point for rope rescue to ventilating a 01:09:37.667 --> 01:09:43.641 - roof to many other things. So it's very very important piece of equipment. Our current truck has been 01:09:43.641 --> 01:09:49.733 - down for periods of time each of the last three years with each subsequent year producing more downtime 01:09:49.733 --> 01:09:56.000 - than the last. It's currently been down for over four months with a repair bill estimated over one hundred 01:09:56.000 --> 01:09:57.054 - thousand dollars. 01:09:57.890 --> 01:10:03.737 - This is in part to an aging apparatus that naturally is going to have more maintenance over time just 01:10:03.737 --> 01:10:09.698 - like any vehicle would but also due to the fact that the needed parts are oftentimes no longer produced 01:10:09.698 --> 01:10:15.488 - and we have to have custom fabrication to reproduce them which is what we're experiencing right now. 01:10:15.488 --> 01:10:21.278 - Thus the high cost and the long downtime purchasing a new apparatus will alleviate these issues as a 01:10:21.278 --> 01:10:26.494 - means to do so more efficiently. We are pursuing a stock unit as opposed to a custom unit. 01:10:27.266 --> 01:10:33.227 - Traditionally you will sit down with the manufacturer come up with a custom design and that design will 01:10:33.227 --> 01:10:39.016 - be built which oftentimes Will lead to a delivery time of three years sometimes more Which is a long 01:10:39.016 --> 01:10:44.976 - it's a long wait So by pursuing a stock unit we can usually cut this time down to a year sometimes less 01:10:44.976 --> 01:10:50.822 - While still getting all the capabilities that we still need. It's just more of a standard build so we 01:10:50.822 --> 01:10:56.382 - will be pursuing a stock unit and we feel confident that that's the route we'll be able to go to 01:10:56.642 --> 01:11:02.452 - Replace this unit. So with that I'm happy to field any questions be that now or at the end 01:11:02.452 --> 01:11:08.964 - of the presentation Just a reminder we have nine minutes left for this portion But yes, thanks. Yeah, 01:11:08.964 --> 01:11:15.541 - we're moving along. So I'll hand things next to Andrew Seabor Good evening Andrew Seabor city engineer 01:11:15.541 --> 01:11:22.053 - just wanted to quickly give an overview of the transportation projects that if the Spons approved the 01:11:22.053 --> 01:11:24.926 - engineering department would be managing and 01:11:25.186 --> 01:11:31.372 - Just to kind of rehash when we presented our 2027 budget, which is on your agenda still Engineering's 01:11:31.372 --> 01:11:37.558 - budget in 2027 is significantly down And we previewed the fact that a large part was because we would 01:11:37.558 --> 01:11:43.622 - be presenting this bond to help facilitate many of our capital projects This slide captures the two 01:11:43.622 --> 01:11:49.808 - biggest projects engineering is proposing in this in this bond the first our improvements to our 10th 01:11:49.808 --> 01:11:50.718 - Street project 01:11:50.818 --> 01:11:57.311 - This corridor is a high priority corridor as identified in the SS or the safety action plan. It really 01:11:57.311 --> 01:12:04.245 - connects the heart of IU campus to the trades district. This year or within the last year, the transportation 01:12:04.245 --> 01:12:10.990 - commission reviewed and approved this concept design that went through the typical transportation planning 01:12:10.990 --> 01:12:17.419 - process. Our design, we have a design contract in place and the design is initiated. We are targeting 01:12:17.419 --> 01:12:20.382 - construction in 2028 if this bond is approved. 01:12:20.482 --> 01:12:26.215 - This bond really would provide a key funding piece to make this project happen But it wouldn't be all 01:12:26.215 --> 01:12:31.836 - that is necessary to fund that project We'd also be looking to other departments like CBU and other 01:12:31.836 --> 01:12:37.738 - funding sources. Like I said, the designs already funded Our third street project is another it's really 01:12:37.738 --> 01:12:43.190 - been prioritized in large part because of two of the traffic signals here the Rogers and Madison 01:12:43.190 --> 01:12:48.866 - intersections are two of our oldest signalized intersections and in poor condition and we are really 01:12:48.866 --> 01:12:49.822 - at try to target 01:12:50.210 --> 01:12:56.825 - Modernizing to signalized intersections each year if we do that that basically means we're doing every 01:12:56.825 --> 01:13:03.247 - signal once every 40 years, so That's really why this project's been prioritized on top of the fact 01:13:03.247 --> 01:13:10.119 - 3rd Street in this area is the highest priority in that same safety action plan This corridor just knowing 01:13:10.119 --> 01:13:16.606 - these improvements were needed is a part of the ongoing Rogers Kinzer Madison study that is underway 01:13:16.738 --> 01:13:23.984 - That is anticipated to be presented to the Transportation Commission at the December meeting And around 01:13:23.984 --> 01:13:31.161 - that time we would initiate the engineering design phase of this project So again, it's really focused 01:13:31.161 --> 01:13:38.128 - on the signal modernization, but also looking more closely at the roadway itself And trying to find 01:13:38.128 --> 01:13:44.190 - opportunities to improve the safety of the corridor This slide captures a couple other 01:13:44.354 --> 01:13:49.483 - improvements really focused on crosswalks the projects highlighted here are already programmed in our 01:13:49.483 --> 01:13:54.864 - metropolitan planning organizations transportation improvement programs that means we have federal funding 01:13:54.864 --> 01:14:00.094 - Allocated to these projects. We just need some of the local funding to help move these projects forward 01:14:00.290 --> 01:14:06.342 - Both of these projects are classified as safety improvement projects And the way we're able to get to 01:14:06.342 --> 01:14:12.454 - these funding is there they have to be systemic improvements So essentially we're trying to spread low 01:14:12.454 --> 01:14:18.862 - cost or lower cost improvements across multiple locations rather than targeting small or specific locations 01:14:18.862 --> 01:14:23.550 - One of these projects is our crosswalk safety phase three project this project 01:14:23.746 --> 01:14:29.413 - is really focused on two intersections, one being the 17th Street and Willis Drive intersection that's 01:14:29.413 --> 01:14:34.969 - right next to Try North. And that looks at including a refuge island for crossing 17th Street there. 01:14:34.969 --> 01:14:40.746 - It's also looking at the Covenanter Drive, Auto Mall Drive intersection, which you can see on the street 01:14:40.746 --> 01:14:46.412 - view image here. It's really just a very large intersection right now. So we're looking at things like 01:14:46.412 --> 01:14:52.574 - bump outs, updating our intersection sidewalk curb ramps and crosswalks, bike lanes, and bus stop improvements. 01:14:52.802 --> 01:14:59.268 - We have funding in the twenty twenty seven budget for construction but we don't have funding in it for 01:14:59.268 --> 01:15:05.546 - construction inspection services which is something we need for federal funding projects and that's 01:15:05.546 --> 01:15:11.886 - what this bond would cover the crosswalk safety phase four project is a project not yet really in in 01:15:11.886 --> 01:15:12.702 - development. 01:15:12.802 --> 01:15:18.663 - It's targeted for construction in 2030, but that means we need to start the design next year, and that's 01:15:18.663 --> 01:15:24.468 - what this bond would help us fund is the design phase of that project. Right now we're really targeting 01:15:24.468 --> 01:15:30.218 - the East 3rd Street and East Atwater Avenue intersection corridors south of IU's campus. The specifics 01:15:30.218 --> 01:15:35.855 - of what the project will include I can't commit to yet, but that will be looked at once we start the 01:15:35.855 --> 01:15:41.214 - design phase and it'll go through our transportation commissions review likely early next year. 01:15:41.602 --> 01:15:50.207 - So this project again just this bond would fund the design phase of that project with construction planned 01:15:50.207 --> 01:15:59.134 - in 2030. And then finally this last slide are really key elements to help us implement the safety action plan. 01:16:00.130 --> 01:16:05.839 - Again, just to refresh ourselves the safety action plan states the city's goal of zero deaths and zero 01:16:05.839 --> 01:16:11.603 - serious injuries on city roadways by 2039 and the way to do that is through investment in projects like 01:16:11.603 --> 01:16:17.201 - these Appendix C of that plan includes a number of proven safety countermeasures and and these types 01:16:17.201 --> 01:16:22.855 - of projects are exactly what those things are so things like roadway and street lighting and sidewalk 01:16:22.855 --> 01:16:28.397 - and bikeway improvements are specifically identified in that plan and these are the improvements we 01:16:28.397 --> 01:16:29.118 - need to make 01:16:29.282 --> 01:16:34.849 - So one one bucket of these are really focused on sidewalk and bikeway improvements. We've been doing 01:16:34.849 --> 01:16:40.527 - Investments like this by leveraging large maintenance projects and really trying as those projects are 01:16:40.527 --> 01:16:46.039 - going on Being strategic about where we can implement meaningful improvements And then also looking 01:16:46.039 --> 01:16:51.771 - for smaller opportunities that could be standalone projects as a result of some of the ongoing corridor 01:16:51.771 --> 01:16:57.393 - studies So looking at filling and missing gaps and things like that and then again mentioning roadway 01:16:57.393 --> 01:16:58.110 - lighting and 01:16:59.042 --> 01:17:05.232 - This would really be a pretty in-depth effort of evaluating our adopt our city policies and standard 01:17:05.232 --> 01:17:11.484 - reviews a lot of coordination with the Duke and the development of really an objective prioritization 01:17:11.484 --> 01:17:18.103 - matrix that would go through our Transportation Commission to help us identify which corridors and projects 01:17:18.103 --> 01:17:23.742 - that would see that lighting improvements Think with that I'm going to hand it back to Jeff 01:17:24.738 --> 01:17:31.988 - Thank you very much Andrew and actually I'm going to hand it to Justin Chang from reading financial 01:17:31.988 --> 01:17:39.383 - to bring it home Two minutes for this whole but this includes the public comment time Just in charity 01:17:39.383 --> 01:17:47.141 - financial group If you're on the finance committee, you'll know I can get through this in under 90 seconds 01:17:47.141 --> 01:17:48.446 - if I go for it so 01:17:48.738 --> 01:17:55.254 - Part of as serious financial advisors as part of our on due diligence when we help the city with a project 01:17:55.254 --> 01:18:01.465 - like this is We have to make sure that the city has the financial capabilities to pay for these bonds 01:18:01.465 --> 01:18:07.676 - Fortunately for us in Indiana the state actually sets a lot of guardrails to make sure we don't Issue 01:18:07.676 --> 01:18:10.782 - too many boss to the point that the city can't pay 01:18:10.882 --> 01:18:17.193 - Those that's back and one of the the one of the first ways that were protected is what's called the 01:18:17.193 --> 01:18:23.631 - constitutional debt limit which essentially What the constitutional debt limit does is it takes their 01:18:23.631 --> 01:18:30.131 - analysis value that the city has this year? We divided by divide that number by three percent By three 01:18:30.131 --> 01:18:36.569 - then multiply by two percent. So that's how we got that thirty six point five million dollars you see 01:18:36.569 --> 01:18:38.462 - in that second second row and 01:18:39.362 --> 01:18:46.311 - After that we have to subtract out the current city general obligation that the city is currently paying 01:18:46.311 --> 01:18:52.995 - which there are three the 2016 2022 and 2024 they add up to about eight point three million dollars. 01:18:52.995 --> 01:18:59.878 - So once we subtract eight point three million dollars by thirty five million dollars we have 28 million 01:18:59.878 --> 01:19:03.518 - dollars left to issue general general obligation debt. 01:19:03.650 --> 01:19:10.430 - As Jeff mentioned, we're issuing a bond worth about $6.8 million. So again, if we take that $28 million, 01:19:10.430 --> 01:19:17.080 - subtract out $6.8, that means we still have $21 million in debt issuance margin left to use. So that's 01:19:17.080 --> 01:19:23.860 - just to show we have quite a bit of space left to go even with this issuance. And that's our time. Thank 01:19:23.860 --> 01:19:30.511 - you very much. Are there any motions? If there are any, otherwise we'll move on. Well, I need a motion 01:19:30.511 --> 01:19:32.254 - to do any of those things. 01:19:32.514 --> 01:19:39.054 - Can we move to extend for five minutes to make sure that there's no public comment on this? There's 01:19:39.054 --> 01:19:45.726 - a motion to extend this debate for five minutes. Yes, I will do that. But there's a motion to extend. 01:19:45.726 --> 01:19:52.331 - Is there a second? Yes. Oh, thank you. Motion to second. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Thank you. Is 01:19:52.331 --> 01:19:59.330 - there anyone who would like to make public comment on this go ordinance? We can extend further, obviously. 01:19:59.330 --> 01:20:02.142 - We're prejudiced to hearing your opinions. 01:20:03.970 --> 01:20:10.848 - Would you like to? OK, I see one. Is there anybody online who would like to comment publicly on this? 01:20:10.848 --> 01:20:17.726 - No one? OK. So anybody else would like to? You could all comment if you'd like to. Would you like to? 01:20:17.726 --> 01:20:23.390 - OK. So I think the five minutes then we'll cover. You have three minutes. Go ahead. 01:20:43.746 --> 01:20:51.817 - I do understand the city's appreciation. If you could just say your name or something similar to it 01:20:51.817 --> 01:20:59.889 - for the record. Thank you. Sorry, sorry, sorry. My name is Oliver Hinshaw. What's the other thing I 01:20:59.889 --> 01:21:07.960 - have to say? Oh, sorry. My name is Oliver Hinshaw. First and foremost, I am level two on the autism 01:21:07.960 --> 01:21:10.462 - spectrum, so I apologize if my 01:21:10.658 --> 01:21:21.750 - I apologize in advance if my wording is odd. I always like to preface that whenever I am speaking about 01:21:21.750 --> 01:21:32.628 - an issue I care about because sometimes I don't always sound correct without meaning to. I am however 01:21:32.628 --> 01:21:36.894 - concerned, I can appreciate as a person 01:21:37.410 --> 01:21:49.433 - Personally that the city wants to modernize the roads and wants to make the roads safer. However, I 01:21:49.433 --> 01:22:01.696 - am concerned about where these funds are being drawn from and if they are being drawn from Funds that 01:22:01.696 --> 01:22:04.702 - could be used to Benefit 01:22:04.834 --> 01:22:18.400 - those who are possibly living in either poverty, getting people out of homelessness, or to help everybody 01:22:18.400 --> 01:22:31.838 - instead of just helping a portion of people. If the council could clarify that a little bit to everybody 01:22:32.642 --> 01:22:40.703 - and the city of Bloomington, I would greatly appreciate that. Am I allowed to ask that clarification? 01:22:40.703 --> 01:22:48.921 - Yes, we're just not allowed to respond. But go ahead. OK, then on that note, since I know that you guys 01:22:48.921 --> 01:22:56.903 - aren't allowed to respond, I'm concerned about where these funds are being drawn from and whether or 01:22:56.903 --> 01:23:00.222 - not they are being drawn from the who all 01:23:00.930 --> 01:23:10.088 - These projects will benefit and where all these funds are being drawn from I just want the The council 01:23:10.088 --> 01:23:19.245 - to be considerate moving forward How this could impact everybody rather than impact the people who are 01:23:19.245 --> 01:23:28.759 - able to contribute the most because a lot of people are being severely hurt by a lot of the city's actions 01:23:28.759 --> 01:23:30.270 - as of lately and 01:23:30.690 --> 01:23:38.435 - Especially people living in homelessness or in poverty Specifically with what happened to seminary point 01:23:38.435 --> 01:23:43.230 - And I wanted to just bring that up. Thank you so much. Thank you 01:23:49.506 --> 01:23:54.948 - All right with the two minutes that are remaining with any council members and I'll just sort of to 01:23:54.948 --> 01:24:00.552 - order this a little bit if we could just sort of say things that we'd like to be included for a second 01:24:00.552 --> 01:24:06.103 - reading it might be might be useful so I can just go with Councilor Pumas-Swith and then anybody else 01:24:06.103 --> 01:24:11.871 - will go down the line. Well I wanted to address the question that was raised by the member of the public. 01:24:11.871 --> 01:24:17.313 - Thank you for raising that. So these bonds these are general obligation bonds which means they have 01:24:17.313 --> 01:24:19.326 - to be connected to capital projects. 01:24:19.490 --> 01:24:27.887 - like buying big equipment or investing in cement or you know big construction things and They're going 01:24:27.887 --> 01:24:36.121 - to be financed by a small increase to people's property taxes We can't as far as I know we can't use 01:24:36.121 --> 01:24:44.436 - bonding money for like social services to help people unfortunately So I just wanted to offer that as 01:24:44.436 --> 01:24:49.246 - an explanation. Thank you Anyone else Council member rough 01:24:50.306 --> 01:25:00.521 - Between now and in advance of I'd ask before the next hearing I'd like More information on where the 01:25:00.521 --> 01:25:11.038 - points of influence council would have on specific Expenditures of this of this revenue this bond money 01:25:11.038 --> 01:25:16.702 - for example the the firetruck example is very clear and 01:25:17.858 --> 01:25:27.756 - It's straightforward easy to understand Know what we're getting in advance a hundred foot extension 01:25:27.756 --> 01:25:37.853 - old truck hard to get new parts for But the some of the engineering projects You know the commitments 01:25:37.853 --> 01:25:47.454 - or the scope And the potential with what might be done. I'm just a lot I'd like more information 01:25:48.162 --> 01:26:01.359 - on on on what exactly we're talking about and where the points where Council and the public would have 01:26:01.359 --> 01:26:15.582 - Some clear and Impactful role and say in in those plans those projects that be funded with these this bond and 01:26:18.914 --> 01:26:27.720 - Thank you so much. Anyone else. Okay. Well are there any motions then. Yes I move that we continue ordinance 01:26:27.720 --> 01:26:35.879 - 20 26 3 0 to our November 4th regular session. Second motion and a second. Any discussion. All those 01:26:35.879 --> 01:26:44.766 - in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed. Thank you very much. That will be discussed on November. You said second. 01:26:44.898 --> 01:26:55.433 - Fourth no. Yeah. Thank you so much. All right. Are there any further motions and thank you so much controller 01:26:55.433 --> 01:27:05.297 - and friends Next motion I'd like to introduce that ordinance 2026 23 be read By the clerk by title and 01:27:05.297 --> 01:27:13.054 - synopsis only second motion and a second all those in favor say aye Any opposed? 01:27:13.250 --> 01:27:21.007 - Will the clerk please read ordinance twenty twenty six dash twenty three UDO amendments related to limited 01:27:21.007 --> 01:27:28.403 - compliance and change in use standards. Council sponsor is Stossberg and synopsis is as follows. This 01:27:28.403 --> 01:27:35.653 - ordinance contains amendments to the unified development ordinance to amend the language related to 01:27:35.653 --> 01:27:40.510 - limited compliance and change in use standards. Thank you so much. 01:27:41.346 --> 01:27:49.886 - I move to discuss ordinance twenty twenty six dash twenty three. Second. All those in favor say aye. 01:27:49.886 --> 01:27:58.595 - Aye. Yay. Any opposed. OK. With that do you come first or should we go. Let's let's go straight to Mr. 01:27:58.595 --> 01:28:07.050 - Grulick. I will note just a reminder we only have 20 minutes for the whole whole shebang. So go for 01:28:07.050 --> 01:28:09.502 - it sir. Thank you very much. 01:28:09.570 --> 01:28:15.749 - Rulich development services manager so I'll try to be brief with this given the time that we've got 01:28:15.749 --> 01:28:22.174 - in front of us. So what we are proposing our series of amendments to a section of the U.D.O. that deals 01:28:22.174 --> 01:28:28.353 - with a process that's called a change in use on a property. So there are several things that can be 01:28:28.353 --> 01:28:34.655 - considered a change in use or an expansion on a property that might require site improvements to this 01:28:34.655 --> 01:28:39.536 - to the property as a whole. And we deal with these very frequently in blooming 01:28:39.536 --> 01:28:45.843 - The change in use process is what we see most frequently for when site improvements happen on a property. 01:28:45.843 --> 01:28:51.971 - You know it's not the typical situation where a property is scraped to the ground and new construction 01:28:51.971 --> 01:28:58.039 - happens which is obviously one of the requirements for site improvements and bringing a property into 01:28:58.039 --> 01:29:00.062 - compliance. So the change in use. 01:29:00.162 --> 01:29:06.072 - Aspect is is when we see these site improvements the most so the things that can trigger the change 01:29:06.072 --> 01:29:12.574 - in use would be additions to a building additions to parking area adding additional dwelling units to a site. 01:29:12.674 --> 01:29:19.422 - Reusing a building if it sat vacant for a certain period of time changing from one land use to another 01:29:19.422 --> 01:29:26.433 - or a subdivision request And so the reason that that we're coming forward with this is that as I mentioned 01:29:26.433 --> 01:29:32.984 - we see this very frequently Throughout Bloomington when small properties are being turned over from 01:29:32.984 --> 01:29:38.750 - one use to another when there's small improvements that are happening to a property and 01:29:38.882 --> 01:29:44.119 - And so the impact of this is felt most strongly with small business owners and small properties You 01:29:44.119 --> 01:29:49.355 - know oftentimes they see a property that's got a building in a parking area and they feel like they 01:29:49.355 --> 01:29:54.592 - can just move into it And you know, maybe there hasn't been some due diligence that they've reached 01:29:54.592 --> 01:29:59.829 - out to our office And so, you know, we get a sign permit and they're ready to move in and you know, 01:29:59.829 --> 01:30:05.118 - we say hey, there's a change in use you're gonna have to do X Y & Z on a property and so that can be 01:30:05.730 --> 01:30:11.983 - very overwhelming for a property owner. And then when we go through what the site improvements that 01:30:11.983 --> 01:30:15.422 - are required, that as well can feel very overwhelming. 01:30:15.490 --> 01:30:22.066 - So we have two aspects of the zoning code that require improvements. One of those can be a full compliance 01:30:22.066 --> 01:30:28.273 - situation where you obviously have to bring the property into full compliance with the UDO. And then 01:30:28.273 --> 01:30:34.911 - we have a limited compliance path, which only requires certain aspects of the site to come into compliance. 01:30:34.911 --> 01:30:41.118 - So in either of those scenarios, the thing that we encounter the most that feels most burdensome for 01:30:41.186 --> 01:30:46.939 - Property owners are removal of parking spaces. So the UDO with the limited compliance Requires you to 01:30:46.939 --> 01:30:52.692 - remove any parking that is over the parking maximum Sometimes that can be very substantial. Sometimes 01:30:52.692 --> 01:30:58.333 - that could be minor but obviously as I mentioned when somebody is Under the impression that they're 01:30:58.333 --> 01:31:04.424 - just moving into a building and now they're faced with the reality that they're gonna have to hire somebody 01:31:04.424 --> 01:31:09.726 - to rip up Asphalt that can be very costly You know one of the other aspects that we seek with 01:31:09.890 --> 01:31:15.767 - Frequently see some struggle with is installing landscaping on a property that can be very costly as 01:31:15.767 --> 01:31:21.818 - well Some of the other site improvements that go along with that are bicycle parking Installation which 01:31:21.818 --> 01:31:27.695 - usually isn't that bad? lighting modifications can be somewhat substantial depending on the existing 01:31:27.695 --> 01:31:29.150 - lighting on the site and 01:31:29.250 --> 01:31:36.063 - sidewalk and street trees Also, it can be very costly depending on what the current situation is bringing 01:31:36.063 --> 01:31:42.489 - entrances and drives into compliance Dumpster enclosure and parking and paving, you know, these are 01:31:42.489 --> 01:31:49.045 - the things that are on the list Within the udio. So the udio does have a very specific list There are 01:31:49.045 --> 01:31:55.472 - 14 things that are in the limited compliance section that says you have to do these things You know 01:31:55.472 --> 01:31:58.878 - some to the extent practical some are just absolutes 01:31:59.010 --> 01:32:05.483 - So as I mentioned, you know, we see this very frequently with small businesses and it's very challenging 01:32:05.483 --> 01:32:11.710 - You know, we've encountered this change in use has been in the UDO since 2007 And so we've had a lot 01:32:11.710 --> 01:32:18.121 - of experience with this So we're bringing forward this amendment to try to adjust some of the standards 01:32:18.121 --> 01:32:24.286 - for what triggers a change in use and then what are the implications of that that change in use and 01:32:24.354 --> 01:32:30.441 - So we are proposing to adjust some of the standards that trigger the change in you. So one of those 01:32:30.441 --> 01:32:36.650 - would be subdivision of a property requires full compliance. So we are proposing to amend that to say 01:32:36.650 --> 01:32:42.920 - that a subdivision does not require compliance. You just can't bring a property out of compliance. You 01:32:42.920 --> 01:32:49.007 - know you can't subdivide away green space or landscaping or you know any aspect that is required to 01:32:49.007 --> 01:32:51.198 - meet some requirement of the U.D.O. 01:32:51.298 --> 01:32:56.990 - We're proposing to adjust the threshold for building additions to allow for. 01:32:57.058 --> 01:33:06.123 - Up to a 25% addition to a building before improvements are required We're proposing to allow for expansions 01:33:06.123 --> 01:33:15.020 - of parking areas up to 25% Before compliance is required We're proposing to allow for additional dwelling 01:33:15.020 --> 01:33:23.582 - units up to 25% as well and then also adjusting You know, I would say probably the two biggest things 01:33:23.650 --> 01:33:31.008 - That triggered the change in use is going from one land use to another. And what I mean by that is in 01:33:31.008 --> 01:33:38.222 - the zoning code you have a list of uses and then within those uses there are certain subcategories. 01:33:38.222 --> 01:33:42.622 - So for instance going from a retail use to a restaurant use. 01:33:42.882 --> 01:33:49.834 - is a change in use based on going from these these subcategories. So we are proposing to remove that 01:33:49.834 --> 01:33:56.717 - requirement. We're also proposing to adjust the abandonment language so that it only kicks in after 01:33:56.717 --> 01:34:03.806 - two years. Right now it's at one year. And then as I mentioned we're proposing to adjust some of those 01:34:04.546 --> 01:34:10.882 - thresholds for building additions and parking additions and the addition of dwelling units So we just 01:34:10.882 --> 01:34:17.217 - wanted to you know with all these things we want to make sure to point out the pros and cons You know 01:34:17.217 --> 01:34:23.615 - the pros of this are you know, we're trying to be more reactive to local businesses and the challenges 01:34:23.615 --> 01:34:29.826 - that they feel So when we encounter these situations with businesses one is certainly the financial 01:34:29.826 --> 01:34:34.174 - Impact of these changes, but then also there is the delay of you know 01:34:34.274 --> 01:34:39.919 - Going through the process of hiring a design professional or you know attempting to do it on their own 01:34:39.919 --> 01:34:45.399 - You know just going through the review process with staff that can be a delay for them And so we're 01:34:45.399 --> 01:34:51.043 - just trying to help be a little bit reactive to those challenges that we have encountered So, you know 01:34:51.043 --> 01:34:56.633 - one of the challenge or one of the cons I guess here is you know acknowledging that the the change in 01:34:56.633 --> 01:35:00.798 - use of going from one land use to another is is probably one of the biggest 01:35:01.154 --> 01:35:06.739 - Triggers that we have encountered for when the change in use standards are required, you know, 01:35:06.739 --> 01:35:12.794 - the abandonment is certainly another So getting rid of that subcategory Trigger would be you know, I'd 01:35:12.794 --> 01:35:18.908 - say almost probably half of one of the change in use triggers But again, as I mentioned, you know, this 01:35:18.908 --> 01:35:24.786 - would go a long way toward helping small business owners and small properties You know as they just 01:35:24.786 --> 01:35:27.902 - tried to reuse existing buildings and existing sites 01:35:28.546 --> 01:35:36.302 - So the plan commission did hear this at their hearing and voted 7 to 0 to forward this to you with a 01:35:36.302 --> 01:35:44.211 - favorable recommendation. And so I'm happy to answer any questions. Thank you so much. Council members 01:35:44.211 --> 01:35:53.118 - any questions. Seeing none we'll now go to a time of public comment if you'd like to comment on ordinance 20 26 23. 01:35:55.106 --> 01:36:01.339 - Same rules as always. Yes. All right. My name is Doug Hazen. I own Hazen Insurance Agency here 01:36:01.339 --> 01:36:08.097 - in Bloomington. I've been a local business owner for 20 years over 20 years now. In 2024 December 2024 01:36:08.097 --> 01:36:14.790 - we decided that we wanted to own our own building instead of renting. Everybody here would think that 01:36:14.790 --> 01:36:21.351 - would be great. We purchased a building. It's between the American Legion and Culver's at 1900 West 01:36:21.351 --> 01:36:22.270 - Third Street. 01:36:23.170 --> 01:36:30.250 - This building sat vacant for about a year, year and a half time. When we purchased the building, boarded 01:36:30.250 --> 01:36:37.060 - up windows, broken windows, homeless people that are already broken on the end had stolen one of the 01:36:37.060 --> 01:36:43.870 - two air conditioners in it. We got a building permit, surprisingly, within about two to three weeks. 01:36:43.870 --> 01:36:51.422 - Fantastic. We're building along, we're going along. We're paying rent as well as mortgage on this new building. 01:36:52.482 --> 01:37:00.222 - We borrowed a hundred thousand dollars to make the interior of this building beautiful to replace the 01:37:00.222 --> 01:37:07.887 - air conditioner that was stolen. We get about three, four weeks away from completion. I go ahead and 01:37:07.887 --> 01:37:15.627 - start to get the sign to get a sign put out. They come to me and they say, Oh, when I applied for the 01:37:15.627 --> 01:37:18.814 - sign permit, you're changing occupancies. 01:37:18.914 --> 01:37:28.523 - Because prior to this it was a small little itty-bitty car lot that was there about a year from 1992 01:37:28.523 --> 01:37:38.228 - to 1998 Kent afford with shelter insurance who retired recently Was in that very same building It was 01:37:38.228 --> 01:37:47.742 - still before that and after he left it was a psychologist office so an office building They told me 01:37:48.002 --> 01:37:57.071 - what I needed to do to get this up to the UDO code was to spend over $36,000 that we did not have budgeted 01:37:57.071 --> 01:38:05.971 - in. I bought the building, I'm making payments on this building and I'm told I can't occupy the building 01:38:05.971 --> 01:38:15.294 - unless I go ahead and pave this whole back entire parking lot. There is gonna be office spaces for six people 01:38:15.906 --> 01:38:24.350 - And they say, we're going to give you six parking spaces. One of them has to be handicapped. Then they 01:38:24.350 --> 01:38:32.547 - tell me you have to plant three bushes per parking space and you have to put three bicycle racks at 01:38:32.547 --> 01:38:40.827 - an insurance agency's office. I've been doing this 20 years and 20 years at one high school kid come 01:38:40.827 --> 01:38:44.926 - to my office on a bicycle. That's when I was over 01:38:45.186 --> 01:38:52.474 - On the east side town one person And then they said the bike rack had to be an upside down you it couldn't 01:38:52.474 --> 01:38:59.625 - even be one that you can put your front nose in that was small Okay Then they told me how to plant extra 01:38:59.625 --> 01:39:06.504 - trees and things like that for businesses if I knew going through the beginning of when I bought the 01:39:06.504 --> 01:39:12.702 - building Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you And next in chambers take it away from 01:39:13.890 --> 01:39:19.746 - Good evening. I'm Jason Bell. I'm the owner of Bell's vacuum and appliance We've been in business 46 01:39:19.746 --> 01:39:25.949 - years and had a Bloomington location for 26 years as some of you know being customers we have been Busting 01:39:25.949 --> 01:39:31.978 - at the seams for about eight years after looking for about a year for a new location We're able to find 01:39:31.978 --> 01:39:37.950 - a building that fit our needs this move included bringing 17 other companies to create a design center 01:39:38.626 --> 01:39:43.898 - I took about seven months with the building department staff as well as planning staff to make sure 01:39:43.898 --> 01:39:49.276 - we had all ducks in a row before we took possession of the building. The building originally was part 01:39:49.276 --> 01:39:54.812 - retail part office and part warehouse and were utilizing the building for the same purpose. The building 01:39:54.812 --> 01:40:00.137 - sat empty for four years but not really. It was still being utilized just not to the public. We were 01:40:00.137 --> 01:40:05.673 - told this was a change of use. We were given documentation on what we needed to do to bring the building 01:40:05.673 --> 01:40:06.622 - up to compliance. 01:40:07.074 --> 01:40:12.594 - We were under the impression we were good to go. Once we took possession of the building in April and 01:40:12.594 --> 01:40:18.113 - filed for permits, it started a change reaction that ended up delaying us getting our permit for over 01:40:18.113 --> 01:40:23.849 - five months. All related to where bushes, plants, and trees were going as well as sidewalk modifications. 01:40:23.849 --> 01:40:29.369 - This included ripping out landscaping that was already in place that just needed a little freshing up 01:40:29.369 --> 01:40:34.888 - and removing most of the grass. This delay caused us not to be able to build out inside until outside 01:40:34.888 --> 01:40:35.646 - was resolved. 01:40:35.746 --> 01:40:41.379 - With the five-month delay, and after speaking with other companies in the building with us, we were 01:40:41.379 --> 01:40:47.293 - able to directly account for over $350,000 in additional cost and unexpected outside improvements, lease 01:40:47.293 --> 01:40:53.038 - payments, and lost revenue. We didn't get our permit until Planning Director Coyne got involved about 01:40:53.038 --> 01:40:58.727 - three weeks ago. So I am happy to say we did finally get our permit. I'm asking all of you to take a 01:40:58.727 --> 01:41:04.529 - serious look at language of the UDO that is more business-friendly. Thank you for your time. Thank you 01:41:04.529 --> 01:41:05.374 - for your time. 01:41:06.722 --> 01:41:12.948 - Anyone else in chambers? Mr. MG, take it away. Hey, good evening, council. Chris Herring from the Greater 01:41:12.948 --> 01:41:18.880 - Bloomington Chamber of Commerce. I do want to say we support this proposed amendments and appreciate 01:41:18.880 --> 01:41:24.753 - the planning staff and the plan commission for advancing these reforms. Mr. Grulick, I think, did a 01:41:24.753 --> 01:41:30.686 - great job explaining why they're necessary. But this has been on the chamber priority list for quite 01:41:30.686 --> 01:41:35.678 - some time. We heard from Mr. Hazen. We heard from Mr. Bell. Those are real examples. 01:41:35.874 --> 01:41:42.070 - Reputation that the city has is it's hard to do business. How did Doug Hayes and end it was like if 01:41:42.070 --> 01:41:48.266 - he would have known it was gonna be this hard He wouldn't have gotten into it that's not the way to 01:41:48.266 --> 01:41:54.586 - go. I mean I had other examples here was which was the West 2nd Street converting the former doctor's 01:41:54.586 --> 01:42:00.286 - office into a veterinary clinic which triggered all sorts of parking paving landscaping and 01:42:00.642 --> 01:42:08.355 - where the construction bids were between 129 and 149,000 and the owners had $30,000 available for site 01:42:08.355 --> 01:42:16.443 - work. The Chamber isn't asking to eliminate variance process at all. I mean, we're just asking to eliminate 01:42:16.443 --> 01:42:23.931 - things that make things harder and that don't make sense. Requirements should be clear, they should 01:42:23.931 --> 01:42:28.574 - be predictable, and proportional to the scale of the project. 01:42:29.058 --> 01:42:34.690 - Worked with cream and crimson the property only faced formal variance process over decorative stone 01:42:34.690 --> 01:42:40.491 - landscaping after repeated attempts to maintain the grass Extending a change of use timeline adjusting 01:42:40.491 --> 01:42:46.348 - limited compliance her so providing parking flexibility These are the type of improvements that we need 01:42:46.348 --> 01:42:52.487 - to make and should have made earlier Unnecessary compliance divert resources from hiring equipment expansion 01:42:52.487 --> 01:42:57.950 - investment for smaller businesses these costs determine whether project moves forward or doesn't 01:42:58.498 --> 01:43:04.063 - We have a list of many projects that did not move forward, that ended up in the graveyard. We should 01:43:04.063 --> 01:43:09.904 - be making it easier to build back into productive use, not creating obstacles to leave properties vacant. 01:43:09.904 --> 01:43:15.800 - The Chamber supports these changes and encourages continued UDO improvements. This should be the beginning 01:43:15.800 --> 01:43:21.310 - of them. Reasonable standards, predictable process, proportional calls help building to attract and 01:43:21.310 --> 01:43:24.286 - retain investment and grow our population. Thank you. 01:43:27.394 --> 01:43:33.749 - Thank you so much, Mr. MG. Anybody else in chambers? We have about five minutes left for this portion, 01:43:33.749 --> 01:43:40.289 - so go ahead. Hello, my name is Sarah Wolford. I'm the housing solutions director at Habitat for Humanity, 01:43:40.289 --> 01:43:46.520 - and I'm gonna keep my comments brief, but I just would like to say that I support the changes in the 01:43:46.520 --> 01:43:53.060 - UDO, and I appreciate council looking and considering at changes, and I think that this is a great start, 01:43:53.060 --> 01:43:56.638 - but I certainly think that there's more to do. Thank you. 01:43:57.026 --> 01:44:04.506 - Thank you so much. Is there anyone online who'd like to comment. No thank you so much. Anybody else 01:44:04.506 --> 01:44:12.060 - in chambers. Seeing none we'll come back to council. We have a minute or so. Any comments or further 01:44:12.060 --> 01:44:19.166 - questions. All right. Thank you so much. That concludes. Well actually no do the motion thing. 01:44:19.682 --> 01:44:29.263 - Move to send ordinance 20 26-23 to a second reading on November 4th second motion second all those in 01:44:29.263 --> 01:44:38.657 - favor say aye Any opposed? All right Moving at the speed of procedure. What's next second readings? 01:44:38.657 --> 01:44:48.990 - Let's do second readings now Yes I'd like to suspend the rules to alter the agenda to move ordinance 20 26 22 01:44:49.570 --> 01:44:57.347 - To the front of the agenda to the next item on our agenda. I believe it requires two-thirds majority 01:44:57.347 --> 01:45:05.125 - The reason is citizens are waiting patiently to speak and I want to respect her time Okay, there's a 01:45:05.125 --> 01:45:13.056 - motion in a second, thank you very much Councilmember Stasberg would you consider amending your motion 01:45:13.056 --> 01:45:17.214 - so that it becomes item C just so that we can get our 01:45:17.890 --> 01:45:24.983 - Budget adoptions done because we talked about those extensively already So I think that that will be 01:45:24.983 --> 01:45:32.216 - relatively short and it's really important that those get done this evening and then our staff related 01:45:32.216 --> 01:45:39.940 - to that can go I Couldn't quite hear you. Oh Moving that from item D to item C so that then our appropriation 01:45:39.940 --> 01:45:42.398 - ordinance is related to budget and 01:45:43.074 --> 01:45:54.407 - Get just done and out of the way which allows staff related to that to depart Mr. Allen, I assume this 01:45:54.407 --> 01:46:05.631 - is a debatable motion because we're debating it. Is that correct? Well, I mean of course I'm amenable 01:46:05.631 --> 01:46:10.142 - to that if my colleagues would like it I 01:46:10.338 --> 01:46:20.183 - Don't know you're right. It's not debatable. It's not a debatable motion. You're right. I'm so sorry 01:46:20.183 --> 01:46:30.321 - about that Two-thirds majority required as a consequence clerk. Will you please read the call the roll? 01:46:30.321 --> 01:46:39.582 - Thank you so much So like yes, sorry, yes daily. Yes. We're all oh, yes rough. Yes Stasburg no 01:46:40.130 --> 01:46:48.950 - Thank you. All right. That carries. The agenda is amended. So item D has now become item A, and everything 01:46:48.950 --> 01:46:57.523 - from A through C is now moved one letter in the alphabet. With that, are there any motions? I move that 01:46:57.523 --> 01:47:05.766 - ordinance 2026-22 be introduced and read by the clerk by title and synopsis only. Second. Motion is 01:47:05.766 --> 01:47:08.734 - second. All those in favor say aye. 01:47:09.570 --> 01:47:20.569 - Will the clerk please read? Just a minute, sorry. Sorry, got you out of order. You did. Ordinance 2026-22, 01:47:20.569 --> 01:47:30.951 - yes, 22, prohibiting use of automated license plate reader technology and certain video surveillance 01:47:30.951 --> 01:47:37.118 - systems. Council sponsors Zulik, Piedmont-Smith, and Asari. 01:47:37.250 --> 01:47:45.301 - The synopsis is as follows. This ordinance prohibits the acquisition and use of automated license plate 01:47:45.301 --> 01:47:53.042 - reader technology and certain surveillance camera systems within the city of Bloomington and by any 01:47:53.042 --> 01:48:01.790 - city agency. Thank you. I move that ordinance 20 20 20 26 dash 20 to be adopted. Second. Thank you very much. So 01:48:02.114 --> 01:48:08.993 - Councilmember Piedmont-Smith, Councilmember Zulek, and I, oh, I'm no longer in charge, go ahead. 01:48:08.993 --> 01:48:16.085 - So yeah, you say whatever you wanna say then. Super, thanks very much. All right, who would like to 01:48:16.085 --> 01:48:23.815 - tell us about this ordinance that we are talking about? Anybody wanna present? Councilmember Piedmont-Smith, 01:48:23.815 --> 01:48:28.638 - thank you. Thank you. Can you share the slide presentation, please? 01:48:33.730 --> 01:48:45.745 - So Ordinance 2026-22 is something that has its genesis in realization at the beginning of this calendar 01:48:45.745 --> 01:48:57.761 - year that automatic license plate readers were being used by ICE and other federal authorities to track 01:48:57.761 --> 01:49:03.422 - down immigrants. And if we go to the next slide, 01:49:03.778 --> 01:49:13.272 - There was a large demonstration outside of City Hall at the end of January to protest against the city's 01:49:13.272 --> 01:49:22.315 - contracts with the corporation known as Flock Safety for automatic license plate readers because of 01:49:22.315 --> 01:49:31.357 - concerns about surveillance and particularly in regard to concerns that ICE was using Flock data to 01:49:31.357 --> 01:49:32.894 - track immigrants 01:49:34.082 --> 01:49:41.911 - Next slide, please. So in early March, the council unanimously adopted Resolution 2026-04, which was 01:49:41.911 --> 01:49:49.741 - authored by Councilmember Asare. We stated our opposition to generalized surveillance and called for 01:49:49.741 --> 01:49:57.647 - strict limits, public transparency, and democratic oversight of surveillance technology, particularly 01:49:57.647 --> 01:50:02.686 - ALPRs. We called for a report on the city's contracts with FLOC, 01:50:02.914 --> 01:50:10.928 - We called for Bloomington Police Department to give us a full briefing on the use of flock data and 01:50:10.928 --> 01:50:19.584 - any guidelines in place for safeguarding such data. We called for an immediate pause on any ALPR expansion, 01:50:19.584 --> 01:50:27.518 - and we stated our intention to develop legislation. Next slide, please. On April 15th, we received 01:50:27.778 --> 01:50:37.130 - an email from Mayor Kerry Thompson and a report from Chief Mike Decoff with some answers in that we 01:50:37.130 --> 01:50:46.575 - called for on March 4th. We were told that the flock ALPR contract was not renewed on March 5th when 01:50:46.575 --> 01:50:54.430 - it was up but that the administration was evaluating replacement providers. The BPD 01:50:54.914 --> 01:51:02.937 - did produce some guidelines for access and use of Flock surveillance information. They also gave examples 01:51:02.937 --> 01:51:11.187 - when Flock surveillance information was used for law enforcement activities. And they detailed the contracts 01:51:11.187 --> 01:51:18.756 - the city had with Flock. In addition to the ALPRs, I think there were 11 ALPRs there, contracts for 01:51:18.756 --> 01:51:23.070 - four mobile security trailers and four downtown cameras. 01:51:23.970 --> 01:51:34.622 - And the sum total expended was two hundred thirty seven thousand dollars approximately. So moving on 01:51:34.622 --> 01:51:45.274 - we three sponsors felt it was important to follow up on some of this information. And here's why. So 01:51:45.274 --> 01:51:52.446 - a LPR and surveillance camera data creates comprehensive databases. 01:51:52.898 --> 01:51:59.929 - that allow tracking and surveillance of all residents, regardless of whether they are suspects of any 01:51:59.929 --> 01:52:07.443 - crime. We affirm our commitment to freedom of speech, freedom of movement, and assembly, which is threatened 01:52:07.443 --> 01:52:14.818 - by the use of these cameras. We have ample evidence that gives us reason to distrust the corporate vendors 01:52:14.818 --> 01:52:21.022 - who have repeatedly violated local contracts in regard to ALPRs and surveillance cameras. 01:52:22.114 --> 01:52:30.474 - Um, we also have no trust in the federal government authorities that have accessed such data and repeatedly 01:52:30.474 --> 01:52:38.369 - violated the civil rights of residents of this country. So what is in the ordinance? So the ordinance 01:52:38.369 --> 01:52:46.420 - creates a new chapter in Bloomington city code called prohibition on the use of automatic license plate 01:52:46.420 --> 01:52:51.838 - readers, ALPRs and certain video surveillance technology. Next slide. 01:52:52.898 --> 01:53:00.805 - So according to this ordinance the city cannot operate use or deploy any LPR system or record retain 01:53:00.805 --> 01:53:08.869 - or store any LPR data. The city cannot allow any third party to record retain retain or store LPR data 01:53:08.869 --> 01:53:17.246 - and no LPR data already in the city's possession can be provided to a third party except by a court order. 01:53:19.074 --> 01:53:26.250 - And the city cannot access ALPR data collected by another agency or vendor. In other words, we can't 01:53:26.250 --> 01:53:33.355 - just rely on other law enforcement to do this work for us and then reap the benefits. Now I do want 01:53:33.355 --> 01:53:40.460 - to note, you can't quite see it there, but the asterisk says, note that the city does not currently 01:53:40.460 --> 01:53:47.707 - hold any ALPR data except for ongoing criminal cases. So since the contract for ALPRs was not renewed 01:53:47.707 --> 01:53:48.702 - on March 5th, 01:53:48.866 --> 01:53:55.999 - Um, there was a 30 day maximum retention period of that data that has long since passed, but it could 01:53:55.999 --> 01:54:03.131 - be that some data that was collected by our LPRs is being used in active criminal cases. I don't know 01:54:03.131 --> 01:54:10.544 - the details, but that's likely the case in, in, in a few instances. All right. Um, as far as surveillance 01:54:10.544 --> 01:54:17.886 - cameras, the ordinance bands, the use of surveillance cameras whose data is shared with any third party. 01:54:19.074 --> 01:54:26.760 - It bans the use of surveillance cameras whose data is searchable by any third party. It does allow for 01:54:26.760 --> 01:54:34.298 - closed circuit surveillance cameras known as CCTV where only the city has access. For example in our 01:54:34.298 --> 01:54:41.835 - city parks we have security cameras whose data goes directly to a city survey server and can be used 01:54:41.835 --> 01:54:45.790 - to help provide security for people using our parks. 01:54:45.922 --> 01:54:53.007 - There is specifically an exception in this ordinance that allows for police body cameras. I'm sorry. 01:54:53.007 --> 01:55:00.724 - That should be there's an exception in one of the amendments that I authored. OK. So we can get to discussing 01:55:00.724 --> 01:55:08.862 - that a little bit later. And then the ordinance does say the city has to develop transparent use guidelines for any 01:55:08.962 --> 01:55:16.655 - security cameras that are allowed, so the ones that aren't shared by third parties, we still need to 01:55:16.655 --> 01:55:24.425 - have clear use guidelines that the public can understand. So in summary, I'd like to say, if the next 01:55:24.425 --> 01:55:32.042 - slide please, there are better ways to invest public funds for community safety. We are actually in 01:55:32.042 --> 01:55:35.774 - the midst of holding deliberation sessions about 01:55:36.194 --> 01:55:44.027 - Public safety, we had one session on September 9th, which showed several members of the public concerned 01:55:44.027 --> 01:55:51.488 - about a sense of social connection and belonging, the predictability of what's happening around us, 01:55:51.488 --> 01:55:59.321 - lighting and safe streets, and community outreach to the most vulnerable among us. Those were the issues 01:55:59.321 --> 01:56:05.886 - that came to the forefront at the deliberation when people thought about public safety. 01:56:06.466 --> 01:56:13.275 - It was not about surveillance. We have our next deliberation session on this topic next Wednesday. You're 01:56:13.275 --> 01:56:19.956 - all welcome to join us to explore further what the city council can do in response to the concerns that 01:56:19.956 --> 01:56:26.572 - our residents brought us. So in my view we should spend our money on solutions that our residents will 01:56:26.572 --> 01:56:31.326 - actually say help would help them feel more safe and not on surveillance. 01:56:42.946 --> 01:56:50.270 - So last slide, please. I do want to thank Brian Hofer, who works with the nonprofit Secure Justice and 01:56:50.270 --> 01:56:57.452 - the team at Local Progress, which is a national organization of local progressive elected officials. 01:56:57.452 --> 01:57:04.990 - Brian, it turns out I didn't know this when I first started talking with him, but he got involved because 01:57:04.990 --> 01:57:12.670 - he himself was pulled over when a flop camera tagged his car by mistake, because they are very error prone. 01:57:12.930 --> 01:57:18.761 - The police stopped him and tried to arrest him and then it turned out they had the wrong car So no, 01:57:18.761 --> 01:57:24.650 - no This was in California. So anyway, I'm open to questions from colleagues Thank you. And of course 01:57:24.650 --> 01:57:30.540 - my co-sponsors might want to add something as well Thank you very much. That was probably one of the 01:57:30.540 --> 01:57:36.779 - most exciting presentations responses. We've gotten in a while Councilmember Zulek and then councilmember. 01:57:36.779 --> 01:57:38.878 - Sorry if you wanted to say anything 01:57:40.930 --> 01:57:49.724 - To say during council comment just in support of this ordinance, but just as a sponsor I hear a lot 01:57:49.724 --> 01:57:58.694 - that flock and ALPR Technology is for public safety and so I've been reflecting a lot on that and the 01:57:58.694 --> 01:58:07.488 - notion of trading privacy for safety is uncomfortable at best and incredibly dangerous at worst and 01:58:07.488 --> 01:58:09.950 - it begs the question who is 01:58:10.210 --> 01:58:17.024 - is truly made safer? Is it safer for our undocumented and documented neighbors that have had this technology 01:58:17.024 --> 01:58:23.338 - used against them? Is it safer for the partners and ex-partners of law enforcement officers who have 01:58:23.338 --> 01:58:29.715 - been stalked as a product of this technology? For unassuming women that have been the targets of ALPR 01:58:29.715 --> 01:58:36.029 - abuse? It's definitely not safer for the folks that have been misidentified by faulty technology and 01:58:36.029 --> 01:58:37.342 - jailed as a product. 01:58:37.506 --> 01:58:46.235 - So when we say this is about public safety, my question is, for whom? Thank you. All right. Thank you 01:58:46.235 --> 01:58:55.050 - very much. Councilmember Asari. Thank you so much. I've said, I think, a lot about this, and so I will 01:58:55.050 --> 01:59:03.950 - be very, very brief. It was George Orwell who said that there was, of course, no way of knowing whether 01:59:03.950 --> 01:59:05.918 - you were being watched 01:59:06.050 --> 01:59:12.378 - at any given moment. And to me, that cuts to the very heart of the ALPR debate. This danger isn't just 01:59:12.378 --> 01:59:18.768 - about who's watching today or ever. I think it's about building a system that can track ordinary people 01:59:18.768 --> 01:59:24.605 - everywhere that they go. And that should be a concern for all of us. I think the real question 01:59:24.605 --> 01:59:30.810 - for Bloomington is whether we want to create that kind of a society. And I think that all of us, I'm 01:59:30.810 --> 01:59:34.558 - not speaking for any of you, but many of us in the community 01:59:34.754 --> 01:59:40.192 - say just clearly the answer is no. Now I think that there's sort of three ways that you can think about 01:59:40.192 --> 01:59:43.486 - governing technology. There's sort of market-based approaches. 01:59:43.554 --> 01:59:49.054 - risk-based approaches and value-based approaches. And I would argue that any good risk-based approach 01:59:49.054 --> 01:59:54.716 - is going to come from a strong sense of values, that you have to come up with what it is that you value. 01:59:54.716 --> 02:00:00.108 - And we should be deciding that at a local level as our community. And so as the local government is 02:00:00.108 --> 02:00:05.823 - where the rubber meets the road of your day-to-day life, it makes sense to me that we would make a strong 02:00:05.823 --> 02:00:11.269 - stand about our values. And so that's the reason why we've been working on this. I think in the long 02:00:11.269 --> 02:00:13.534 - term, though, as we've talked about here, 02:00:14.018 --> 02:00:19.865 - technology is constantly changing. And I don't think we want to be in an environment where we're having 02:00:19.865 --> 02:00:25.824 - to do a sort of thing like this every year or something like that, because there's going to be new things 02:00:25.824 --> 02:00:31.784 - and new threats. And so we really need to come up with a broader system, a systematic approach. We talked 02:00:31.784 --> 02:00:37.575 - about, for example, a data policy within the city. We talked about thinking generally how we would put 02:00:37.575 --> 02:00:43.984 - our values into practice across the board and how we procure things, how we deploy things, how we develop things. 02:00:43.984 --> 02:00:49.733 - We've been working on that as well. I've been writing that piece of legislation for over a year now, 02:00:49.733 --> 02:00:55.653 - but it's hard because it's like, what do you put in? What do you put out? So we'll be really interested 02:00:55.653 --> 02:01:01.403 - in continuing to engage with you, obviously with city leadership across the board and figuring out a 02:01:01.403 --> 02:01:07.095 - sort of more sustainable approach. But in the meantime, it is very clear where our red line is. And 02:01:07.095 --> 02:01:12.958 - so that's really what this legislation is about today. So with that, also happy to take any questions. 02:01:13.442 --> 02:01:19.890 - All right. Thank you very much. So awesome. Thank you. We have multiple amendments. We might want to 02:01:19.890 --> 02:01:26.339 - address the amendments first before we move on so we can talk about the legislation as amended if it 02:01:26.339 --> 02:01:32.723 - does get amended. So is there anybody that would like to make a suggestion. I'll move amendment one 02:01:32.723 --> 02:01:38.724 - to ordinance twenty twenty six twenty two second. All right. Super. Thank you. Amendment one. 02:01:38.724 --> 02:01:41.342 - Thank you. Councilmember Piedmont Smith. 02:01:43.170 --> 02:01:51.350 - This one is very easy. It's just Striking the word flock because we're not only concerned about flock. 02:01:51.350 --> 02:01:59.451 - There are other corporations that have this that so this kind of system so that was it was a leftover 02:01:59.451 --> 02:02:07.870 - word that We forgot to take out the title. So Okay. Thank you. Any councilmember comment or councilmember 02:02:07.870 --> 02:02:10.014 - questions on amendment one 02:02:12.930 --> 02:02:22.636 - No, okay. So now we can move to public comment on just amendment one Not the whole issue just amendment 02:02:22.636 --> 02:02:31.969 - one. Is there anybody in the public who would like to make comment on amendment one? anybody online 02:02:31.969 --> 02:02:39.902 - Last chance. Okay. Super cool. Any council comments on amendment one Super all right 02:02:40.258 --> 02:02:48.694 - We can take a vote on this everybody in. Do we do a roll call vote for this sir. Yes. Thank you very 02:02:48.694 --> 02:02:57.298 - much. Clerk would you please call the roll. Council member Zulick. Yes. Sorry. Yes. Daily. Yes. Rallo. 02:02:57.298 --> 02:03:05.734 - Yes. Rough. Yes. Stossberg. Yes. Piedmont Smith. Yes. Thank you. All right. That passes unanimously. 02:03:05.734 --> 02:03:08.574 - Thank you very much. Now we move. 02:03:08.674 --> 02:03:15.527 - Forward anybody else want to propose something councilmember Zulek. I'd like to move forward amendment 02:03:15.527 --> 02:03:22.447 - to all right. Thank you Okay, thank you very much councilmember Zulek, please present amendment So this 02:03:22.447 --> 02:03:29.566 - just tightens up the definition of surveillance camera to extend past just a video recording. I'll read it 02:03:29.922 --> 02:03:36.499 - Everyone who's listening its surveillance camera means any fixed mobile portable or remotely operated 02:03:36.499 --> 02:03:43.334 - device or system that captures records monitors or analyzes visual or audio visual information concerning 02:03:43.334 --> 02:03:49.975 - individuals vehicles or activities and uses automatic detection recognition classification or tracking 02:03:49.975 --> 02:03:56.359 - whether operating continuously intermittently or in response to an event and That is my amendment. 02:03:56.359 --> 02:03:59.454 - Thank you. Thank you very much any questions or 02:03:59.554 --> 02:04:05.905 - from council on amendment two. Councilmember Stosberg. Thank you. I just want to make sure 02:04:05.905 --> 02:04:12.395 - in the clarification of this definition, and I'm not sure whether this is a question so much 02:04:12.395 --> 02:04:19.443 - for Councilmember Zulek or a question from some of our staff that I know are in the audience. But by 02:04:19.443 --> 02:04:26.562 - adding that and in there, where and uses those automated detection, does that help with the issue of, 02:04:26.562 --> 02:04:28.446 - I'll say, security cameras 02:04:28.738 --> 02:04:36.678 - For example on city-owned buildings that aren't automatically detecting things is that Gonna help solve 02:04:36.678 --> 02:04:44.312 - that issue. So those security cameras aren't gonna fall under this definition and I guess I I think 02:04:44.312 --> 02:04:52.252 - from the councilmember sponsored perspective it does but I'm just I guess I'm hoping that somebody from 02:04:52.252 --> 02:04:57.214 - staff or our attorneys would be able to address whether that and 02:04:59.170 --> 02:05:06.052 - kind of Makes a positive difference in terms of some of the concerns that have been brought up Councilmember 02:05:06.052 --> 02:05:12.367 - Piedmont Smith who has made a lot of the end and the rest of the team we've been making some really 02:05:12.367 --> 02:05:18.933 - good amendments to to this legislation It is a very broad definition. So everybody's mobile phone meets 02:05:18.933 --> 02:05:25.500 - the definition of surveillance technology And I think we all know we are being surveilled by our phones 02:05:25.500 --> 02:05:27.710 - anyway, so that's not news I think 02:05:27.906 --> 02:05:35.529 - You know the exceptions that that we think are important to make would be not just body cams but also 02:05:35.529 --> 02:05:43.377 - dash cams for police and evidentiary cameras used in interview rooms. Those those three forms of cameras 02:05:43.377 --> 02:05:51.299 - in particular are required by statute to be recorded and they are meant to be protected to to hold police 02:05:51.299 --> 02:05:57.502 - accountable. The first two. So we would get your questions connected. So it would. 02:05:57.794 --> 02:06:03.943 - We would all want that Those to be maintained and they in some cases do need to be maintained by a third 02:06:03.943 --> 02:06:09.916 - party because we don't want local Authorities interfering with those kinds of things outside of that. 02:06:09.916 --> 02:06:16.065 - There are many other cameras that could be covered by this so I feel the exceptions for regular security 02:06:16.065 --> 02:06:22.038 - cameras that are closed caption that seems Clear we've talked that through. I think it seems clear in 02:06:22.038 --> 02:06:26.430 - the other amendments as a whole. I'm sorry. Excuse me deputy Maron out but 02:06:26.722 --> 02:06:33.211 - What I'm asking is if that and in that definition which is different from I mean from oh There were 02:06:33.211 --> 02:06:39.895 - two amendment twos There was an amendment to that got released in packet addendum 1 and then there was 02:06:39.895 --> 02:06:46.774 - an amendment to that got released in packet addendum 3 and We're talking about the one in packet addendum 02:06:46.774 --> 02:06:52.030 - 3 and it has an and instead of an or and so I can put that up on the screen Yeah 02:06:53.090 --> 02:06:59.677 - Because the and requires then that surveillance camera to not just be like monitoring things But it's 02:06:59.677 --> 02:07:06.134 - also using automated detection recognition, etc So it's include has to include both of those things 02:07:06.134 --> 02:07:12.786 - in order to be a surveillance camera as is defined In this so I guess that's where like maybe attorney 02:07:12.786 --> 02:07:19.308 - Allen. Yeah, it's a narrower definition for sure Yeah, so maybe attorney Allen could address whether 02:07:19.308 --> 02:07:21.310 - that and does what it is that? 02:07:23.298 --> 02:07:30.779 - needed to be done in terms of Enabling certain types of cameras to not fall into This definition of 02:07:30.779 --> 02:07:38.409 - security camera. Yeah contract attorney Larry Allen. Thank you I think that that was exactly why that 02:07:38.409 --> 02:07:44.094 - change was made is to narrow this definition so that you're not capturing a 02:07:44.290 --> 02:07:51.122 - all passive cameras that are used, that it specifically has to have this integration and uses automated 02:07:51.122 --> 02:07:57.757 - detection, recognition, classification, and tracking technology built into the camera, which I think 02:07:57.757 --> 02:08:04.524 - makes it distinguish from a handheld point and shoot camera from the typical closed circuit television 02:08:04.524 --> 02:08:11.159 - cameras. I'm sorry. Oh, it's just the wrong page being displayed, that's all. Amendment two, the new 02:08:11.159 --> 02:08:12.670 - amendment two, please. 02:08:13.186 --> 02:08:20.053 - I'm not displaying that page, I apologize. So that's exactly what this is intended to do. As originally 02:08:20.053 --> 02:08:26.589 - written, it was very broad. It could have captured a lot of devices as the Deputy Mayor indicated, 02:08:26.589 --> 02:08:33.456 - potentially a cell phone. I think as written right now, it does not capture a cell phone or potentially 02:08:33.456 --> 02:08:40.190 - even a dash cam device because typically those, depending on what technology those are embedded with, 02:08:40.354 --> 02:08:48.373 - Hardware so I can't answer that definitively only the chief police or the deputy mayor could possibly 02:08:48.373 --> 02:08:56.706 - answer that But again, this is to attempt to narrow it down so that we're not capturing all those passive 02:08:56.706 --> 02:09:04.725 - cameras I don't think that this is the correct one still I can help pull it up. Does anyone else have 02:09:04.725 --> 02:09:07.870 - a question doesn't have the and Yeah So 02:09:09.090 --> 02:09:18.278 - Councilmember Zula can you clarify is it it's in the or it's supposed to be. Yes. Thank you. So it's 02:09:18.278 --> 02:09:27.647 - supposed to be the or it's supposed to be the end. And is correct. Okay. Thank you for clarifying. Any 02:09:27.647 --> 02:09:30.558 - other questions on Amendment 2. 02:09:39.522 --> 02:09:46.713 - I just was making sure. Thank you. Any public comment on Amendment 2? Any member of the public want 02:09:46.713 --> 02:09:54.191 - to make comment on this amendment? Anybody online looking to make comment? Sorry. Thank you. Yes. Okay. 02:09:54.191 --> 02:10:01.741 - We will take it to our commenter on Zoom. Thank you very much. Please state your name and you have three 02:10:01.741 --> 02:10:07.422 - minutes. Hi. I don't need three minutes. My name is Iris Bull. I am commenting 02:10:07.522 --> 02:10:14.061 - because I'm concerned that this amendment or just the language in general might somehow involve traffic 02:10:14.061 --> 02:10:20.537 - signals that are actuated or just require some of this similar technology. And so far I haven't really 02:10:20.537 --> 02:10:26.888 - heard if there's like a delineation in the conversation between just security cameras and also other 02:10:26.888 --> 02:10:32.924 - kinds of cameras that we rely on in our transportation network. Thank you. Thank you very much. 02:10:32.924 --> 02:10:36.382 - Anybody else, anybody in the room interested in making 02:10:36.514 --> 02:10:43.570 - Comment on amendment to I see no movement. Anybody else online. Is that our last. OK super. Thank you 02:10:43.570 --> 02:10:50.765 - very much. We'll come back here to council comment. Any council comments on amendment to council member 02:10:50.765 --> 02:10:55.262 - Stasberg. Well I'll comment and say that I appreciate that this. 02:10:55.778 --> 02:11:02.464 - that this amendment to the definition of surveillance camera got put in and that it got adjusted to 02:11:02.464 --> 02:11:09.150 - have the and because I did have some concerns about wanting to make sure that this did not prohibit 02:11:09.150 --> 02:11:15.970 - cameras that are actually useful in terms of some types of security and surveillance. So I appreciate 02:11:15.970 --> 02:11:22.856 - that this amendment got in there. So thank you. All right. Thank you. Any other council comment before 02:11:22.856 --> 02:11:24.862 - we go to vote on amendment 2? 02:11:26.722 --> 02:11:37.406 - Okay, clerk, would you mind please calling the roll on amendment two? Councilmember sorry. Yes. Daily. 02:11:37.406 --> 02:11:47.778 - Yes. Rallo. Yes. Ruff Stasberg. Yes. Piedmont Smith. Yes. And Zulik. Yes. Thank you. Thank you very 02:11:47.778 --> 02:11:55.454 - much. That passes seven zero. Anybody else want to talk about amendments? 02:11:56.002 --> 02:12:02.577 - While we're in this section. Yes, I move amendment three to ordinance twenty twenty six dash twenty 02:12:02.577 --> 02:12:09.152 - two second. Thank you. Amendment three. Take it away. All right. This does various things. First of 02:12:09.152 --> 02:12:15.991 - all it aligns the prohibited uses with the expanded definition of surveillance camera that was proposed 02:12:15.991 --> 02:12:22.763 - by amended to and it allows limited technical access to internal systems for repairs. So it does allow 02:12:22.763 --> 02:12:24.670 - like somebody who's going to 02:12:25.282 --> 02:12:32.832 - fix some glitch in the system to do that, but you have to have a record of why you're doing it, who's 02:12:32.832 --> 02:12:40.307 - doing it, all that stuff. Number two, it clarifies that acquisition of ALPR systems as well as their 02:12:40.307 --> 02:12:48.079 - use is banned. Number three, it clarifies the ban on access to ALPR data collected by others. And number 02:12:48.079 --> 02:12:54.814 - four, it adds a requirement for surveillance cameras that are allowed under this ordinance 02:12:55.074 --> 02:13:04.310 - to not be used for facial recognition, biometric identification, or automated tracking of persons without 02:13:04.310 --> 02:13:13.807 - prior city council authorization. Great. Thank you very much. Any questions for Councilmember Piedmont-Smith 02:13:13.807 --> 02:13:22.782 - on Amendment 3? Councilmember Stasberg. This may be looking ahead a little bit, but how does this work 02:13:22.782 --> 02:13:24.350 - with Amendment 5? 02:13:25.794 --> 02:13:37.328 - doesn't like Amendment 5 doesn't affect this one right. It just adds a new section on to the same section 02:13:37.328 --> 02:13:48.644 - that Amendment 3 is talking about. I hope so. Let me look at Amendment 5. Yes there's no contradiction. 02:13:48.644 --> 02:13:53.758 - Amendment 5 just adds additional language. OK. 02:13:57.666 --> 02:14:05.321 - Any other questions on amendment three? Okay, seeing none, we'll go to public comment. Any member of 02:14:05.321 --> 02:14:13.128 - the public here tonight want to make a comment on amendment three? Anybody online? Nobody in chambers? 02:14:13.128 --> 02:14:20.784 - Okay, super, back to council. We are zooming. There is somebody online, I apologize. Okay, I was too 02:14:20.784 --> 02:14:27.454 - rushed to zoom. Oh, I was, get it, anyway. Go ahead. Thank you, you have three minutes. 02:14:28.802 --> 02:14:37.727 - Um, hi, my name's Risa and, uh, I was just wondering if it would be possible to take out that last part 02:14:37.727 --> 02:14:46.309 - where it says without prior authorization by ordinance of the common council and just make this not 02:14:46.309 --> 02:14:54.462 - permitted at all. Not even with common council authorization. Thank you. Is that your comment? 02:14:59.458 --> 02:15:07.591 - Okay, well we're not allowed to respond. So just thank you for registering your comment and we can take 02:15:07.591 --> 02:15:15.802 - it back here to the council and we can now, unless anybody else has a comment in the public on amendment 02:15:15.802 --> 02:15:23.935 - three. Okay, so we can come back here for council member comment. Council member Zulek. Thank you, I'll 02:15:23.935 --> 02:15:28.158 - comment just briefly in regard to the public comment. 02:15:28.354 --> 02:15:35.993 - It's a fairly redundant line because council is the authority in either case. And so if we were to bring 02:15:35.993 --> 02:15:43.267 - back legislation it would have to be through an ordinance either way. So I'm not sure that deleting 02:15:43.267 --> 02:15:50.761 - that line would be. Fruitful or productive. But yeah just wanted to explain that. Council members like 02:15:50.761 --> 02:15:54.398 - any other council member comments on Amendment 3. 02:15:56.994 --> 02:16:06.636 - Councilmember Piedmont Smith. Yeah I'm trying to remember why I put that phrase in there. I believe 02:16:06.636 --> 02:16:16.277 - it was language that I found in other ordinances. As councilmember Zulek said I I think you know it 02:16:16.277 --> 02:16:25.726 - could be changed by the council anyway whether or not that phrase is in there. I currently cannot 02:16:25.858 --> 02:16:33.450 - imagine a time where I would vote for something that has facial recognition or biometric identification. 02:16:33.450 --> 02:16:41.115 - But yeah I don't think it really hurts to have it in there because the council could come back and change 02:16:41.115 --> 02:16:48.345 - this anyway. All right. Thank you very much. Any last comments or are we ready to vote on Amendment 02:16:48.345 --> 02:16:55.070 - 3. All right. Clerk would you please call the roll on Amendment 3. Councilmember daily. Yes. 02:16:57.186 --> 02:17:06.370 - Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Sorry. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. That passed unanimously. Hey 02:17:06.370 --> 02:17:15.287 - do we have any other amendments we want to talk about. I move amendment five. I'm not going to move 02:17:15.287 --> 02:17:23.134 - amendment four. So unless somebody else wants to. Second. So I'm moving amendment five. 02:17:23.874 --> 02:17:32.036 - This was in the third addendum that came out just this afternoon. I do apologize to everybody that a 02:17:32.036 --> 02:17:40.117 - lot of this was done at the last minute. Amendment five includes central dispatch as a city agency. 02:17:40.117 --> 02:17:48.521 - So we define city agency and as any agent or department or division of the city of Bloomington we share 02:17:48.521 --> 02:17:52.158 - the central dispatch with county government. 02:17:52.706 --> 02:18:00.473 - And so this makes it clear that central dispatch will be considered a city agency. It also specifically 02:18:00.473 --> 02:18:08.241 - allows the use of body worn cameras by police. I feel that body worn cameras are actually a way to make 02:18:08.241 --> 02:18:15.709 - sure that there's a record of what police do and is overall a good practice. And the third thing it 02:18:15.709 --> 02:18:19.518 - does is it clarifies that surveillance camera data 02:18:19.682 --> 02:18:27.671 - may be used for the purpose of criminal investigations. So if we have an actual criminal case with a 02:18:27.671 --> 02:18:35.819 - case number, and the police go out and say, hey, Village Pantry, there was a murder here, and you have 02:18:35.819 --> 02:18:44.204 - a security camera, and we would like to look at that, it would allow them to do that, just as an example. 02:18:44.204 --> 02:18:46.814 - So that's what Amendment 5 does. 02:18:48.450 --> 02:18:56.580 - Wonderful. Thank you very much councilmember Piedmont Smith any councilmember questions on amendment 02:18:56.580 --> 02:19:04.871 - five councilmember Stossberg I really found it useful by the way in the packet addendum that there was 02:19:04.871 --> 02:19:11.230 - the revised red line with amendments one two three and five Thank you for that 02:19:11.394 --> 02:19:22.802 - And I'm just trying to align and make sure that everything that's in the amendments is in the red line 02:19:22.802 --> 02:19:33.988 - and the other way around. So under 2.87035 in the red line, I feel like there's three new paragraphs 02:19:33.988 --> 02:19:38.750 - that this Amendment 5 is supposed to show. 02:19:41.058 --> 02:19:48.690 - Okay, but there are three on the that see that's why I'm asking this because I'm not sure that amendment 02:19:48.690 --> 02:19:56.177 - five aligns as it's presented with the red line and I'm Just noticing that right now. I'm so sorry And 02:19:56.177 --> 02:20:03.736 - so I just want to make sure because amendment five seems like shorter than the red line is well because 02:20:03.736 --> 02:20:08.606 - we already amended this section with a previous amendment, okay, I 02:20:09.634 --> 02:20:16.494 - Because I like the way the red line reads. I think the red line is good. And I just want to make sure 02:20:16.494 --> 02:20:23.556 - that all of our amendments are in the red line. Yes. Although legally it's the amendment language that's 02:20:23.556 --> 02:20:30.415 - going to carry and not the red line version. I know that's why I'm checking. But we did make previous 02:20:30.415 --> 02:20:36.670 - changes to two point eight seven point zero three five. I can try to find them. OK. I guess. 02:20:39.650 --> 02:20:45.610 - Yeah, there was amendments. Sorry, I can't put this all on my screen. This is one of these moments. 02:20:45.610 --> 02:20:51.271 - I want to have two different screens. So it says, insert after the last paragraph in Amendment 02:20:51.271 --> 02:20:57.350 - 5, notwithstanding any other provision in this section. And then there were more words. And then down 02:20:57.350 --> 02:21:03.310 - there in that section, it also has this prohibition does not apply to disclosers expressly required 02:21:03.310 --> 02:21:09.150 - by law or pursuant to a valid court order. So which amendment was that one in? Was that in three? 02:21:09.922 --> 02:21:17.238 - Okay. Excellent. Thank you. And then I guess the other question is once again going back to staff and 02:21:17.238 --> 02:21:24.411 - maybe this this might be for Chief Chief DeKoff more than anybody else. Does this amendment seem to 02:21:24.411 --> 02:21:31.727 - then work in terms of what you need to be able to do and your officers need to be able to do in terms 02:21:31.727 --> 02:21:38.398 - of communicating with other departments and doing investigations and some of those concerns. 02:21:43.234 --> 02:21:49.852 - dash cameras that are in our cars, which is used for evidence, and it does not include interview room 02:21:49.852 --> 02:21:56.470 - cameras, which were required by statute to record interviews. So I don't know if state statute trumps 02:21:56.470 --> 02:22:03.154 - this because we're required by law to record those, but that is not covered in stuff that we would use 02:22:03.154 --> 02:22:04.062 - for evidence. 02:22:04.834 --> 02:22:11.047 - I don't think that those count as surveillance cameras based on the definition of surveillance camera. 02:22:11.047 --> 02:22:17.259 - So you tell me right now the definition of surveillance camera says that those cameras have to be able 02:22:17.259 --> 02:22:23.774 - to capture those things, and they have to be able to have automatic detection, recognition, classification, 02:22:23.774 --> 02:22:29.926 - or tracking. Well, some of that evidence is stored on cloud servers. But that doesn't matter anymore. 02:22:29.926 --> 02:22:32.158 - OK. I'm just telling you what we do. 02:22:32.450 --> 02:22:39.275 - Yeah, that one, the cloud storage doesn't matter that more if they don't qualify as a surveillance camera. 02:22:39.275 --> 02:22:46.036 - So do the dash cam cameras or the interview room cameras, are those automatically detecting, recognizing, 02:22:46.036 --> 02:22:52.415 - tracking, classifying anything? No. Okay, then those aren't gonna count as surveillance cameras, so 02:22:52.415 --> 02:22:59.049 - they would not be impacted by this at all. Okay. Okay, so we should be good? Yes. Excellent, thank you. 02:22:59.049 --> 02:23:02.238 - All right, any other questions on amendment five? 02:23:04.002 --> 02:23:11.606 - Okay. We will now take it to public comment on amendment five. I do see some takers here in chambers. 02:23:11.606 --> 02:23:19.209 - Please sign in state your name and you have three minutes on amendment five. Thank you. Good evening. 02:23:19.209 --> 02:23:26.664 - My name is Thomas West guard. I live in Bloomington. This amendment five diverges strongly from the 02:23:26.664 --> 02:23:32.702 - rest of the ordinance in some significant ways. The what we're losing with these 02:23:32.802 --> 02:23:39.972 - Automated cameras is a level of privacy that we took for granted Cory Doctorow Uses the term the I'm 02:23:39.972 --> 02:23:47.141 - gonna deliberately mispronounce it for your rules the incitification of everything We have taken for 02:23:47.141 --> 02:23:54.311 - granted that in public here. We can walk around and not Be accountable to the people who are present 02:23:54.311 --> 02:23:57.150 - But we never had to think that our data 02:23:57.250 --> 02:24:05.142 - Picture of us would be sent to a corporation in California that would then process it and resell it 02:24:05.142 --> 02:24:13.113 - to the world for a profit That's what we're losing here and specifically with if we take that off of 02:24:13.113 --> 02:24:19.742 - the body cams and we say oh well actually you can sell the data from a body cam and 02:24:20.162 --> 02:24:29.354 - to somebody somewhere else and let them profit off it and let them do whatever they want with it. We're 02:24:29.354 --> 02:24:38.722 - losing the same privacy that we're trying to correct here. And the police and mayor's note in your packet 02:24:38.722 --> 02:24:47.826 - consistently refuses to recognize that they are wholly authorized by your ordinance and the first four 02:24:47.826 --> 02:24:48.798 - amendments 02:24:48.898 --> 02:24:56.368 - to do individualized suspicion and individualized investigations, just by the terms of what you've already 02:24:56.368 --> 02:25:03.350 - written. Once we start carving holes in that, it then allows them to, you know, what is a body-worn 02:25:03.350 --> 02:25:10.750 - camera? That's not defined. Can they hang a body-worn camera off a pole? It's sold as a body-worn camera, 02:25:10.750 --> 02:25:18.430 - so maybe we just stick it on a car, maybe we stick it on a pole, maybe we have private citizens wearing them. 02:25:18.658 --> 02:25:27.046 - It's a hole you can drive a truck through. And that second part, that's your entire enforcement mechanism. 02:25:27.046 --> 02:25:35.433 - If there's no consequence in court for violating this ordinance, you've given away the farm. Every ability 02:25:35.433 --> 02:25:44.056 - you have to enforce this ordinance shows up in court when the police come in and they say, hey, we completely 02:25:44.056 --> 02:25:48.446 - violated the ordinance. We've been selling this data to 02:25:49.410 --> 02:25:58.225 - people all over the world, we've made no effort to control who gets it, and by the way, hey, we get 02:25:58.225 --> 02:26:07.217 - to present it as evidence, then your ordinance will have no effect and no power whatsoever. These two 02:26:07.217 --> 02:26:16.120 - changes cut the heart out of everything else that you've done. These arguments are being made in bad 02:26:16.120 --> 02:26:19.294 - faith. The ordinance that you wrote 02:26:19.714 --> 02:26:29.738 - is clear, it allows individualized investigations. Thank you. Thank you. Next speaker in chambers, please 02:26:29.738 --> 02:26:39.857 - sign in and state your name. And you have three minutes. Hello, my name is Seaforth Breeze. I'm a resident 02:26:39.857 --> 02:26:49.598 - of Bloomington. Speaking to this specific section, specifically the section on body cams, for example, 02:26:49.762 --> 02:26:58.876 - It was a little bit hard as a member of the public to follow as all of these different addendums were 02:26:58.876 --> 02:27:07.811 - being processed. So I might be mistaken here. But I share similar concerns as to the last commenter 02:27:07.811 --> 02:27:16.747 - in the sense that if we carve out exemptions to body cams and to dash cams as an example that allow 02:27:16.747 --> 02:27:19.070 - for some of the biometric 02:27:19.394 --> 02:27:26.326 - you know, information to be collected, among other things, then all you're really doing is shifting 02:27:26.326 --> 02:27:33.675 - the positionality of that data collection, right? So instead of having, you know, the flock camera that's 02:27:33.675 --> 02:27:40.884 - sitting at the corner of your street, then cops can just position their cars in such a way that they're 02:27:40.884 --> 02:27:48.510 - collecting that data and then processing that data still, right? So I, you know, perhaps I'm misunderstanding 02:27:49.026 --> 02:27:58.144 - but I have serious concerns, and I think it might be something that y'all might wanna speak to in your 02:27:58.144 --> 02:28:06.996 - comments in a moment. Because if that is carving out that, then it really is giving away so much of 02:28:06.996 --> 02:28:16.025 - what all of us in this room are here for. That is what we are here for, to end that information being 02:28:16.025 --> 02:28:18.238 - passed. I would like to, 02:28:18.562 --> 02:28:25.716 - Thank you all for your time, and I do wanna note just very quickly, I've spoken here before about flock 02:28:25.716 --> 02:28:32.802 - cameras pointing directly at my porch, and they have since been removed. And it has been a huge relief 02:28:32.802 --> 02:28:39.956 - in my life, a weight that is off my shoulders, but I, one, know that that is not the case for everybody 02:28:39.956 --> 02:28:46.078 - in this community, especially at IU, for example, and I also know that, you know, again, 02:28:46.306 --> 02:28:54.362 - referencing the like dash cam or the body cam, is it not enough that that data is collected as a straight 02:28:54.362 --> 02:29:02.646 - visual stream? Or does it have to have that ability to be shared with other agencies or with other corporate 02:29:02.646 --> 02:29:10.550 - vendors, right? Can it not just be, are there ways around that? Thank you for your time. Thank you very 02:29:10.550 --> 02:29:13.438 - much. Do we have any speakers online? 02:29:15.938 --> 02:29:25.099 - OK, thank you. Any last commenters in chambers? All right, so now we'll take it back to council comment. 02:29:25.099 --> 02:29:33.823 - Any council members like to make comment on Amendment 5? Sure, why not? Could I just ask a question 02:29:33.823 --> 02:29:42.722 - to Attorney Allen? I can't hear you. Sorry. Could I ask a question to Attorney Allen? The question is 02:29:42.722 --> 02:29:44.990 - about the last part here. 02:29:45.250 --> 02:29:53.880 - Is it even necessary, aren't the exclusions that are within the text already make possible what I think 02:29:53.880 --> 02:30:02.759 - this is trying to achieve, namely that there's an, I think the example was if Village Pantry has something 02:30:02.759 --> 02:30:11.389 - on a private camera that's being requested for, is this even necessary? Because aren't there other laws 02:30:11.389 --> 02:30:13.630 - about the abilities to get 02:30:13.858 --> 02:30:19.942 - that type of, so I'm just trying to understand whether or not this exclusion accomplishes what we think 02:30:19.942 --> 02:30:25.793 - it's accomplishing, because I get what we're trying to do here, but in your opinion, what does this 02:30:25.793 --> 02:30:31.936 - do? It's a good question. I think it depends on the type of technology that's being used for those types 02:30:31.936 --> 02:30:32.638 - of cameras. 02:30:32.706 --> 02:30:39.175 - One of the difficulties is most modern cameras are going to have some sort of facial recognition or 02:30:39.175 --> 02:30:45.708 - tracking capabilities, so whether they belong to a private business or not. My understanding of this 02:30:45.708 --> 02:30:52.371 - exception as I read it would allow the police to receive those from private citizens and or businesses 02:30:52.371 --> 02:30:59.422 - if it was tied to an active investigation. In terms of whether that's already covered, I think probably not. 02:30:59.554 --> 02:31:07.091 - because it does prohibit the data sharing from any third party of a tracking camera. And so if you didn't 02:31:07.091 --> 02:31:14.343 - have that in and it did have that basically very modern, widely available camera technology that most 02:31:14.343 --> 02:31:21.524 - people are putting on, a ring doorbell is a good example of that, then it wouldn't likely be able to 02:31:21.524 --> 02:31:28.990 - be shared with police. Now in terms of greater society, would the video be obtainable? Yes, it would be. 02:31:29.474 --> 02:31:37.005 - I'm so sorry to interrupt, but when we say it wouldn't be able to, talk to us about how the legislation 02:31:37.005 --> 02:31:44.318 - is currently drafted constrains the police from receiving a donation of data. I'm being a little bit 02:31:44.318 --> 02:31:51.776 - provocative in the framing of it, but if a private citizen says, here is some data you can use in your 02:31:51.776 --> 02:31:52.862 - investigation, 02:31:53.122 --> 02:32:02.623 - So I'm just trying to understand whether, because I think the comment also notes the directionality 02:32:02.623 --> 02:32:12.219 - of adding this into the legislation. So that's what I'm trying to get at is whether this is changing 02:32:12.219 --> 02:32:18.110 - entirely the object being legislated. I think, again, because 02:32:18.210 --> 02:32:25.524 - My understanding again reading the legislation and I could happily read it again over and over again 02:32:25.524 --> 02:32:32.839 - When you're defining third party third party is very broad in this in this legislation by definition 02:32:32.839 --> 02:32:40.370 - and by purpose a third party is literally anyone else out other than a city agency, right and if you're 02:32:40.370 --> 02:32:46.526 - if you're taking out that definition and so as a result if you if you're barred from 02:32:46.658 --> 02:32:52.151 - sharing data or receiving data from any third party that's from a surveillance camera, which includes 02:32:52.151 --> 02:32:57.645 - that technology, then I think by definition you would be barred from receiving that under this order. 02:32:57.645 --> 02:33:03.030 - You'd be in violation of the ordinance. Now, if you'll just grant me just a little bit of leeway, I 02:33:03.030 --> 02:33:03.838 - would just say 02:33:04.194 --> 02:33:10.281 - The information would be obtainable would just be much more difficult to obtain. So there's nothing 02:33:10.281 --> 02:33:16.672 - that would stop anybody from subpoena subpoenaing business and obtaining that through the legal process. 02:33:16.672 --> 02:33:23.003 - So that evidence could be preserved potentially. It would just have to go through additional mechanisms 02:33:23.003 --> 02:33:29.090 - and it wouldn't necessarily be able to be directly to a city agency. Thank you very much. Any other 02:33:29.090 --> 02:33:34.142 - council member comments council member Stossberg. Well I also have a question. OK. 02:33:34.946 --> 02:33:42.328 - The public commenters brought up the concern about what I heard was the definition of body camera and 02:33:42.328 --> 02:33:49.710 - could it be a body camera if it was on an inanimate object. And so I'm just wondering from either our 02:33:49.710 --> 02:33:56.947 - attorneys or from Chief DeKoff, is there a commonly understood definition of body camera and what a 02:33:56.947 --> 02:34:00.638 - body camera is in terms of state law or local law? 02:34:01.890 --> 02:34:08.560 - There's no law that defines what it is It's it's a camera that a police officer wears usually somewhere 02:34:08.560 --> 02:34:15.102 - on the front of their uniform to record their interactions with the public I guess I'm just wondering 02:34:15.102 --> 02:34:21.003 - if if there was I mean clearly what we have is a room full of Folks that are very skeptical 02:34:21.003 --> 02:34:27.417 - of law enforcement. Maybe that would be mild saying that very mildly so the I guess the question is 02:34:27.417 --> 02:34:29.726 - like could like if If we don't have 02:34:29.954 --> 02:34:36.480 - Clearly understood definition of body camera having to be something that is worn on a police officer's 02:34:36.480 --> 02:34:43.005 - front could it be Misused in the way that the public commenters said and I'm not like trying to accuse 02:34:43.005 --> 02:34:49.404 - you guys of misusing I'm just saying like systematically like because if there's a definition that a 02:34:49.404 --> 02:34:55.803 - body worn camera by a police officer as it's framed in here Well, it's gonna be something that is on 02:34:55.803 --> 02:34:58.654 - the police officer's person so if there is a 02:34:59.842 --> 02:35:07.205 - So we have policies that address the use of body cameras, and it's required to be worn on the uniform. 02:35:07.205 --> 02:35:14.996 - We don't go climb poles and tape them to a pole to record stuff. They're worn, and they have to be activated 02:35:14.996 --> 02:35:22.145 - by the officers. So you have interdepartmental policy that dictates that the body worn camera needs 02:35:22.145 --> 02:35:29.150 - to be worn on their uniform and wear. OK, thank you. So hopefully that addresses that concern of, 02:35:29.570 --> 02:35:38.770 - Body cameras being out in the wild somewhere Thank You councilmember Rallo Could you just clarify So 02:35:38.770 --> 02:35:48.516 - the procedure of Wearing a body camera It's only activated if it's worn in other words, it's not activated 02:35:48.516 --> 02:35:58.718 - in any other situation So it is it is activated when an officer Activates it there are automatic activations if 02:35:58.978 --> 02:36:05.714 - like light bars are turned on so that it comes on because if you're in You know running to an emergency 02:36:05.714 --> 02:36:12.256 - call both lights and sirens you may forget to turn it on so that can be activated Automatically that 02:36:12.256 --> 02:36:18.733 - way if there are if you are If you all are officers and we're close and we're dealing with somebody 02:36:18.733 --> 02:36:25.598 - if you activate yours It can also be set to activate yours so that everybody is recording the interaction 02:36:25.598 --> 02:36:28.254 - That makes sense. Well, yes, I suppose I 02:36:28.354 --> 02:36:38.811 - My question is, is it a requirement to be worn before it is activated? Yes. OK. Thank you. Thank you. 02:36:38.811 --> 02:36:49.268 - Any other council comments? Council member Ruff. If this amendment guts the heart and soul out of the 02:36:49.268 --> 02:36:57.982 - very intent of what we're doing here, that's a huge issue. But I don't have a grasp. 02:36:58.146 --> 02:37:06.059 - Don't really understand I don't have the expertise and technological expertise. I haven't heard I mean 02:37:06.059 --> 02:37:14.279 - thought of all the questions I've need to ask to to understand if if if if this does that Which I wouldn't 02:37:14.279 --> 02:37:22.652 - want to do But so I don't really feel if it came to a vote I'd probably pass on this Any other councilmember 02:37:22.652 --> 02:37:28.030 - want to make a comment on amendment five councilmember Piedmont Smith 02:37:29.538 --> 02:37:39.120 - Yes, there were a few concerns from the public about body camera footage being accessible to a third 02:37:39.120 --> 02:37:49.177 - party or an external entity or corporation. Chief DeKoff, can you speak to how the data from body cameras 02:37:49.177 --> 02:37:59.518 - is processed and whether external entities have access to it? So currently, because we generate so much data 02:37:59.842 --> 02:38:11.947 - from the body cams. It is stored on a third party cloud server but we are the only ones that have access 02:38:11.947 --> 02:38:23.592 - to it. OK. And that is in the contract that only BPD has access to. Keep in mind we have you know 90 02:38:23.592 --> 02:38:27.742 - some officers that body cams and we 02:38:27.906 --> 02:38:35.139 - We generate a tremendous amount of video data because they're recording every interaction they have 02:38:35.139 --> 02:38:42.372 - with the public. Yeah we just we just can't maintain that kind of storage at the city. But it is it 02:38:42.372 --> 02:38:49.894 - is locked down and it is we are the only ones that have access to it. All right. Thank you. Well I will 02:38:49.894 --> 02:38:55.102 - just add as a comment that certainly I don't think this eviscerates the 02:38:55.298 --> 02:39:04.741 - point of the ordinance since I come sponsored the ordinance and I'm sponsoring this amendment. I think 02:39:04.741 --> 02:39:14.551 - it allows police body cameras which I think are a good tool to to hold police to account for their actions 02:39:14.551 --> 02:39:20.510 - and interactions with the public. It allows those to be used and 02:39:21.794 --> 02:39:32.647 - So I guess each council member will have to weigh whether that's worth you know whether the the good 02:39:32.647 --> 02:39:43.608 - of the good aspects of having body cameras on our police personnel outweigh the harm of some possible 02:39:43.608 --> 02:39:50.270 - leak or to some corporation or hack into some kind of system. 02:39:50.754 --> 02:39:56.862 - Which of course is a hack could also happen to our own servers if we were if we had enough storage space 02:39:56.862 --> 02:40:03.028 - So just to respond to councilmember rough up. I do not think This eviscerates the point of the ordinance. 02:40:03.028 --> 02:40:09.078 - Thank you Just a quick note. We've done public comment on this section already So we're we're done with 02:40:09.078 --> 02:40:14.896 - that portion so that we can keep moving forward Thank you. You will have a chance again to speak on 02:40:14.896 --> 02:40:15.710 - the amend the 02:40:16.386 --> 02:40:23.880 - broader ordinance as amended Councilmember Stossberg I'm sorry. I have another question So chief de 02:40:23.880 --> 02:40:31.375 - Koff you said that that body worn camera footage is only available to you guys in the department Do 02:40:31.375 --> 02:40:39.244 - you happen to know in techspeak if that's in terms of its travel to the cloud and back of its end-to-end 02:40:39.244 --> 02:40:41.342 - encrypted if it's encrypted 02:40:41.442 --> 02:40:48.896 - If it's end to end encrypted specifically, I believe it is it is it is evidence. So it is highly protected 02:40:48.896 --> 02:40:55.863 - Okay, and no, no one else can access it Okay Thank you. Um, I'll also offer a little bit of comment 02:40:55.863 --> 02:41:03.109 - now as well. I'm with councilmember Piedmont Smith I don't think that this eviscerates it. I think that 02:41:03.109 --> 02:41:06.174 - it's really important that our police force 02:41:06.274 --> 02:41:14.176 - Are able to maintain their body-worn cameras It was not that many years ago where a similar sort of 02:41:14.176 --> 02:41:22.710 - crowd would have emerged to require our police force to wear body-worn cameras to hold officers accountable 02:41:22.710 --> 02:41:31.244 - for how they're treating the public and so the real concern there honestly is that data so is it end-to-end 02:41:31.244 --> 02:41:32.350 - encrypted and 02:41:32.514 --> 02:41:39.276 - if it's end-to-end encrypted, then what that means is that it's being stored somewhere, but it's being 02:41:39.276 --> 02:41:46.104 - stored in a form that they can't read it there, right? And I mean, everything is hackable at this point 02:41:46.104 --> 02:41:52.669 - in theory, right? But that's about as good as we can do, I think. So I will certainly be supporting 02:41:52.669 --> 02:41:56.542 - this amendment, and I appreciate it being made. Thank you. 02:41:56.866 --> 02:42:04.861 - Councilmember sorry, so So the I can I propose an amendment to this and I'll explain why I am the First 02:42:04.861 --> 02:42:12.703 - off the I think well, actually there's two things. Let me separate them the easy thing first. I think 02:42:12.703 --> 02:42:18.622 - and please attorneys tell me if I'm wrong here, I think that the question of 02:42:18.754 --> 02:42:26.023 - Body-worn cameras, as well as the question of dash cams, is already covered under the severability clause, 02:42:26.023 --> 02:42:32.952 - because it's required by state law that they have it. So I don't think that we need to say this here, 02:42:32.952 --> 02:42:39.813 - I think. But I think the second part more importantly, and I think that this is the comment that was 02:42:39.813 --> 02:42:47.422 - getting at here, and first off, I very much appreciate what we're trying to do here. I think that there is a... 02:42:47.522 --> 02:42:55.033 - Something we didn't want an externality to this which is that if you read this another way what you're 02:42:55.033 --> 02:43:01.743 - also are authorizing is to is that you could as a city authorize a third party for the sake 02:43:01.743 --> 02:43:09.254 - of an investigation to use Surveillance technology first off which is the broadest definition here and 02:43:09.254 --> 02:43:10.494 - so you could ask 02:43:10.882 --> 02:43:17.359 - you could say, hey, ICE, use some other technology that exists. Hey, so, you know, sheriff, whatever. 02:43:17.359 --> 02:43:24.026 - So you could ask a third party, or for that matter, I mean a contractor, right? So if I was a contractor 02:43:24.026 --> 02:43:30.504 - that access to this type of thing, you know, a big tech company, for example, you know, so that to me 02:43:30.504 --> 02:43:36.854 - is contrary to what it is that we're trying to say here, that what you're trying to say, thank you, 02:43:36.854 --> 02:43:39.838 - but what you're trying to say here is that we, 02:43:40.002 --> 02:43:46.009 - that we understand that there is a need for investigations. But there's a whole other process where 02:43:46.009 --> 02:43:52.498 - people have to get warrants and all of those type of things that I feel like already covers this statement. 02:43:52.498 --> 02:43:58.745 - But I might be completely wrong there. So I just don't think that we need this. I don't think that this 02:43:58.745 --> 02:44:04.753 - amendment accomplishes anything other than introducing some externalities that are contradictory to 02:44:04.753 --> 02:44:08.958 - what we're trying to achieve with the legislation in the first place. 02:44:10.370 --> 02:44:17.145 - All right, thank you very much. So. Actually, I was gonna say that we could just strike the last bit, 02:44:17.145 --> 02:44:23.788 - but now that I think of it, I mean, unless I'm completely wrong about the body cameras, but I mean, 02:44:23.788 --> 02:44:30.497 - again, we have lawyers here, but I just, like, I just don't think we need this amendment, so I'm not 02:44:30.497 --> 02:44:36.542 - gonna, I'm not gonna be voting for this amendment, but I think that, this makes it harder. 02:44:36.930 --> 02:44:46.240 - Yeah, but that's what I'm just saying. Yeah, so thank you. Okay councilmember Rallo and then I'd like 02:44:46.240 --> 02:44:55.641 - to respond I Don't know about the I'd like to hear from staff from our legal staff about the body cams 02:44:55.641 --> 02:45:06.046 - and the dash cams and state law but I don't understand councilmember Asari's assertion that if the last paragraph 02:45:06.242 --> 02:45:15.670 - is included in this amendment that we could ask a third party to use surveillance camera to get data? 02:45:15.670 --> 02:45:25.190 - No, other parts of this ordinance already make that impossible. And I think that his previous question 02:45:25.190 --> 02:45:32.030 - was answered by attorney Larry Allen that if we don't have this, then the 02:45:32.578 --> 02:45:41.473 - You know the evidence of somebody murdered outside the 7-eleven we could not get that that camera footage 02:45:41.473 --> 02:45:50.284 - from 7-eleven and that is a very problematic thing to solving this case Order order, please please Yeah, 02:45:50.284 --> 02:45:58.843 - you know, I'll just say super briefly, I mean I think the the issue here is with specificity right so 02:45:58.843 --> 02:45:59.934 - because like 02:46:00.290 --> 02:46:08.449 - As people have noted, and as I noted before, there already is a process by which you can get evidence 02:46:08.449 --> 02:46:16.688 - for any type of criminal proceeding, thing one. But thing two is that you're only saying that you need 02:46:16.688 --> 02:46:24.766 - a case number. So as long as I have some case that has begun, I now can authorize any type of use of 02:46:24.766 --> 02:46:27.486 - surveillance data being received. 02:46:27.746 --> 02:46:36.882 - and third party is already broad. So anyone who would have this data can now be, you can now ask for 02:46:36.882 --> 02:46:46.017 - that data, which means in effect that if I have a case number, I can ask someone to start collecting 02:46:46.017 --> 02:46:55.153 - data for me. It's not what it's saying. To be clear, this is in no way, I get what it is. I get what 02:46:55.153 --> 02:46:56.510 - you're saying. 02:46:56.610 --> 02:47:03.865 - I'm not saying that this is what you intended. I just think that it is the result of this language. 02:47:03.865 --> 02:47:11.339 - And I don't think that what you're intending is needed. I don't think we need this language to achieve 02:47:11.339 --> 02:47:18.957 - what you're intending. I think it already exists. Well, then I would like to hear from our legal counsel 02:47:18.957 --> 02:47:26.430 - about both points, both the state law, about body worn and dash cams, and whether in order to get that 02:47:27.842 --> 02:47:36.071 - that third-party surveillance video in relation to a specific case, we would need this language, which 02:47:36.071 --> 02:47:44.060 - I thought was already answered. Yes, Mr. Allen, please. Just quickly, and since there are more than 02:47:44.060 --> 02:47:52.049 - one attorney in the room, I welcome other opinions or other statements. Because we have amended the 02:47:52.049 --> 02:47:54.206 - definition of surveillance 02:47:54.370 --> 02:48:01.323 - camera, it probably does obviate the need, like as long as the body cameras aren't using some sort of 02:48:01.323 --> 02:48:08.344 - automatic detection, again, facial recognition, tracking technology, they are probably allowed already 02:48:08.344 --> 02:48:15.774 - without the specific exception of body worn camera. There is not, just to clarify for points of information, 02:48:15.970 --> 02:48:22.187 - There's not a specific definition of body worn camera in Indiana state law. What it is called though 02:48:22.187 --> 02:48:28.773 - is a law enforcement recording device. Those are defined in at least two areas of state law with a similar 02:48:28.773 --> 02:48:30.558 - definition. They include any 02:48:30.690 --> 02:48:36.520 - Device for creating audiovisual audiovisual recordings designed to be worn by a law enforcement officer 02:48:36.520 --> 02:48:42.238 - and attached to the vehicle or transportation of a law enforcement officer so it actually covers both 02:48:42.238 --> 02:48:48.012 - dash cams and what we think of as body-worn cams just to clarify in that point as far as the the third 02:48:48.012 --> 02:48:50.366 - point I think this gets into the issue of 02:48:50.498 --> 02:48:57.243 - when we're talking about interfere with any person or entity providing evidence. And my understanding 02:48:57.243 --> 02:49:03.855 - of those terms, under the law, person is extraordinarily broad. The definition by default in common 02:49:03.855 --> 02:49:10.997 - law of person is extraordinarily broad. It does not mean just individual. It actually means can incorporate 02:49:10.997 --> 02:49:17.940 - even other governmental entities, agencies, businesses, corporations, et cetera, as it has been defined. 02:49:17.940 --> 02:49:20.254 - And then we also have entity here. 02:49:20.578 --> 02:49:26.663 - The way this is written, it really wouldn't prohibit, it would say notwithstanding, as long as you have 02:49:26.663 --> 02:49:32.807 - a case number and a criminal investigation open under the way this is written currently, yeah, you could 02:49:32.807 --> 02:49:38.658 - probably receive video from a flock surveillance camera that did have that tracking technology from 02:49:38.658 --> 02:49:44.626 - another agency if it was specific as a part of conducting a criminal investigation with a signed case 02:49:44.626 --> 02:49:48.254 - number. I do think that's the plain language as written here. 02:49:50.178 --> 02:50:00.757 - Thank you, but again, I welcome and I'm sorry part of the the Councilmember sorry, I was talking about 02:50:00.757 --> 02:50:11.027 - that. There's already state law about body cams and dash cams That would allow them. Is that right? 02:50:11.027 --> 02:50:19.038 - Does it require them? What I don't believe that they're required by statute I 02:50:19.170 --> 02:50:24.669 - So I don't think that there's a state law requirement for body cams They have been adopted by by a lot 02:50:24.669 --> 02:50:30.009 - of agencies obviously as a protection for both officers and the people that they're dealing with on 02:50:30.009 --> 02:50:35.829 - a daily basis And Bloomington has been one of those but in terms of I'm not aware of a state law requirement 02:50:35.829 --> 02:50:41.168 - But I'm happy as we sit here to continue to research that and give you more information as we can I 02:50:41.168 --> 02:50:44.318 - think corporation council rice may have something to add I 02:50:48.418 --> 02:50:55.256 - Rice Corporation Council there are a lot of layers of state law already related to criminal information 02:50:55.256 --> 02:51:02.160 - and I will tell you that you know the statute that Your attorney decided I was looking at also the bunch 02:51:02.160 --> 02:51:08.866 - of definitions criminal intelligence information means data that has been evaluated to determine that 02:51:08.866 --> 02:51:15.573 - the data is relevant to what goes on about crimes There's a separate state law that says a person who 02:51:15.573 --> 02:51:18.334 - unlawfully discloses criminal information 02:51:18.626 --> 02:51:25.436 - intelligence information is subject to criminal prosecution. So you're not the first people who have 02:51:25.436 --> 02:51:32.380 - been worried about disclosure of information. Believe me, there's a lot of layers of state law already 02:51:32.380 --> 02:51:39.594 - protecting information that police receive. So I'm not sure, I'll tell you with all the various amendments 02:51:39.594 --> 02:51:46.539 - that have gone on tonight, it seems somewhat circular and I'm not sure where you're going, but I think 02:51:46.539 --> 02:51:47.550 - your amendment 02:51:48.066 --> 02:51:57.156 - Councilmember Piedmont Smith was to try to protect the integrity of Investigations to keep our community 02:51:57.156 --> 02:52:06.160 - safe to make sure that the police can legitimately Protect our residents and also to be concerned about 02:52:06.160 --> 02:52:10.142 - the things that people are worried about like 02:52:10.978 --> 02:52:18.478 - Oh this information on a camera is going to get sold to a third party. There's already state law that 02:52:18.478 --> 02:52:25.905 - says you'd get prosecuted if you did that. So so I'm telling you that Larry and I can cannot come up 02:52:25.905 --> 02:52:33.331 - with all of these on the fly tonight. But I can tell you that I think your amendment is appropriate. 02:52:33.331 --> 02:52:35.390 - I don't think it's harmful. 02:52:35.874 --> 02:52:42.597 - I think that there's and again there's a lot of people that are already thinking about these things 02:52:42.597 --> 02:52:49.656 - and there are provisions in state law that we can't just let this information you know out of our hands. 02:52:49.656 --> 02:52:56.378 - We'd be in trouble for that. You mean the body cam information. Yeah yeah we can't. Okay thank you. 02:52:56.378 --> 02:53:03.773 - Councilmember Rallo did you still have a comment. Well I had the same questions as my colleague Councilmember 02:53:03.773 --> 02:53:05.790 - Smith but I would just ask my 02:53:05.890 --> 02:53:14.824 - Council president is sorry it was Mr. Allen's opinion that it there is not a mandate for police body 02:53:14.824 --> 02:53:23.934 - cameras in Indiana Does that affect your argument? Take everything that um, I take everything that mr. 02:53:23.934 --> 02:53:31.806 - Allen says is uh, you know his gospel so But your assumption was that this was redundant 02:53:31.938 --> 02:53:41.750 - Yeah, that was my assumption on the first part. I mean, my concern about maybe the language, the specificity 02:53:41.750 --> 02:53:51.021 - of the second part remains. But I mean, yeah, I mean, I think we can vote. I just, yeah, I don't know. 02:53:51.021 --> 02:53:56.062 - And similarly to counsel Rice, you know, attorney Rice. 02:53:56.962 --> 02:54:05.116 - It's hard to think of such things on the right this moment, but my gut feeling, my reaction to reading 02:54:05.116 --> 02:54:13.269 - this, like when I'm thinking about the many possibilities of how this could play out. And again, we're 02:54:13.269 --> 02:54:21.502 - not just thinking about, we're thinking about long term and who else interacts with this and what ways. 02:54:21.602 --> 02:54:26.988 - with new technologies and things. And so I'm probably mostly concerned about the broadness of which 02:54:26.988 --> 02:54:32.427 - we're defining surveillance technology here, even though I think it's the point was made. We sort of 02:54:32.427 --> 02:54:38.028 - obviated that elsewhere. Broadness was what we're seeing a person here. I don't know. I just think that 02:54:38.028 --> 02:54:40.990 - there's a lot of possibility for abuse here. Well, OK. 02:54:41.122 --> 02:54:48.406 - I would just say that I'm very I I think I'm went over by Councilmember Piedmont Smith because I need 02:54:48.406 --> 02:54:55.691 - to know that this a potential and arrests a Suspect arrested needs protection and the body these body 02:54:55.691 --> 02:55:02.975 - cameras can provide that Clearly it's been used many many times and in fact, they've been required to 02:55:02.975 --> 02:55:06.974 - wear these in communities for that very reason so but I 02:55:07.554 --> 02:55:14.348 - I'll listen to others. I might ask maybe one one guiding question and then I'll stop talking if I'm 02:55:14.348 --> 02:55:21.210 - allowed. Sorry. Maybe to any of the attorneys here like can someone tell me in the current ordinance 02:55:21.210 --> 02:55:28.479 - the specific language that would prohibit a criminal investigation from happening if it was passed without 02:55:28.479 --> 02:55:29.566 - this amendment. 02:55:37.730 --> 02:55:50.522 - I'm going to give you the most attorney answer ever, which is to say, it really depends what you mean 02:55:50.522 --> 02:56:02.686 - by criminal investigation. Because just actually playing this out, remember, police are involved 02:56:03.170 --> 02:56:08.882 - in any number of activities that may or may not result in prosecution of a crime, may or may not result 02:56:08.882 --> 02:56:14.813 - in charges being filed, may or may not result in a recommendation to the prosecutor's office. And certainly 02:56:14.813 --> 02:56:20.469 - they investigate potential crimes, right? And so if you're talking about a criminal investigation that 02:56:20.469 --> 02:56:26.071 - gets referred into the legal system, referred to the prosecutor as part of that, what I had described 02:56:26.071 --> 02:56:32.222 - earlier, there are legal mechanisms for obtaining evidence in that regard. Again, more difficult unquestionably 02:56:32.386 --> 02:56:40.535 - if you're talking about again, just an assigned case number potentially or a Plane investigation that 02:56:40.535 --> 02:56:49.003 - may or may not result in charges That's a little harder for me to answer just to be just to be completely 02:56:49.003 --> 02:56:57.791 - transparent with you That's member Stasberg, thank you. Um, I'll answer that for you too from my non-attorney 02:56:57.791 --> 02:56:58.750 - perspective 02:56:59.042 --> 02:57:08.919 - Because I I think that some of my concerns around this may have helped initiate this amendment in 2.8 02:57:08.919 --> 02:57:17.246 - 7.0 3 o d no city agency shall access search request purchase obtain or use ALPR data 02:57:18.562 --> 02:57:25.032 - 2.8 7035 right below that so right above this section No city agency shall use any surveillance camera 02:57:25.032 --> 02:57:31.440 - system that permits a third party to access search retrieve receive or independently use surveillance 02:57:31.440 --> 02:57:32.382 - data collected 02:57:32.578 --> 02:57:37.488 - Generated etc. And so I appreciate that you can always like get a subpoena right in a court order to 02:57:37.488 --> 02:57:42.641 - ask that but I hope that Other folks can also appreciate sometimes there might be that moment when you're 02:57:42.641 --> 02:57:47.648 - where somebody is offering you information where somebody's saying oh There was this traffic accident, 02:57:47.648 --> 02:57:51.294 - you know, and and I have dashcam footage of that here. Like I don't want I 02:57:51.490 --> 02:57:58.199 - The system to have to go through all of those steps to get a subpoena before they can look at your footage 02:57:58.199 --> 02:58:04.595 - that they may or may not even use for the investigation, but I think that we're in a pretty litigious 02:58:04.595 --> 02:58:10.990 - society and I would rather have this paragraph in that says We you know, we want to make sure that if 02:58:10.990 --> 02:58:17.950 - people are offering that kind of information that has to do with a certain criminal case that you know our our 02:58:18.146 --> 02:58:23.988 - Officers who are in the middle of what could be a crisis for somebody aren't having to go Oh shoot is 02:58:23.988 --> 02:58:29.887 - receiving this video information gonna completely tank our case later because it's gonna be thrown out 02:58:29.887 --> 02:58:36.130 - and I think that those things are conceivably possible and I would like to not have those things conceivably 02:58:36.130 --> 02:58:42.430 - possible and and don't want our officers have to worry about that when they're dealing with crisis situations 02:58:44.866 --> 02:58:51.185 - Any last council comments on amendment five. Oh, I'm sorry. May I just ask a question. So imagine 02:58:51.185 --> 02:58:57.891 - hypothetically that there was a murder and that the police received ring camera from a neighbor to help 02:58:57.891 --> 02:59:04.725 - solve that. Are you is the council intending that the police would not be able to access that information 02:59:04.725 --> 02:59:11.302 - to solve the murder or to give it to the prosecutor or are you thinking that they're going to have to 02:59:11.302 --> 02:59:14.526 - go through the process of a subpoena to get that. 02:59:14.722 --> 02:59:26.539 - It's your I mean is that the intention because I think that's problematic if that's the intention Yeah 02:59:26.539 --> 02:59:38.012 - Councilmember Stossberg every but that's what I'm trying to avoid. That's I don't think we're going 02:59:38.012 --> 02:59:42.142 - to avoid that very kind of scenario 02:59:43.266 --> 02:59:50.612 - Councilmember rough and then hopefully we're ready to go to vote on this one could argue the flip side 02:59:50.612 --> 02:59:58.314 - of of This not being needed because there are already channels To achieve these things that this amendments 02:59:58.314 --> 03:00:05.516 - not needed the flip side of that is Well, then it's not particularly harmful because it's not needed 03:00:05.516 --> 03:00:12.862 - because it's already You know, it's already Accessible already. It's already in place in other ways. I 03:00:13.474 --> 03:00:23.352 - So I was wanted to ask member maybe councilmember sorry because and he said I believe that It's not 03:00:23.352 --> 03:00:33.526 - needed and that was his primary Point if if you would all agree with the flip side of that. Well, it's 03:00:33.526 --> 03:00:40.638 - not particularly harmful then to approve it because for the same reason 03:00:47.682 --> 03:01:00.337 - Do you want to respond or are we ready to vote. Let's vote. OK. Thank you. Clerk would you please call 03:01:00.337 --> 03:01:13.238 - the roll on Amendment 5. Councilmember Rallo. Yes. Ruff. Yes. Stasberg. Yes. Piedmont Smith. Yes. Zulek. 03:01:13.238 --> 03:01:14.590 - No. Sorry. 03:01:21.698 --> 03:01:31.142 - I'm sorry. I heard two different voices. So councilmember sorry if you could repeat your vote I said 03:01:31.142 --> 03:01:41.147 - no, thank you and daily Thanks so much That passes five to do so now we are moving on to ordinance 2026-22 03:01:41.147 --> 03:01:47.038 - as amended any council questions on the ordinance as amended I 03:01:49.922 --> 03:01:57.852 - Have we questioned ourselves out? Oh, Council Member Rollo. I just wanted to inform that cats is offline 03:01:57.852 --> 03:02:05.934 - because the power went off at the at the library, unfortunately. So people will not be able to be watching 03:02:05.934 --> 03:02:13.864 - us. They're cats. All right. Thank you very much. Any questions from council members on ordinance twenty 03:02:13.864 --> 03:02:18.622 - twenty six dash twenty two. Council. Yeah. Oh no. False alarm. 03:02:19.938 --> 03:02:26.623 - Okay, here's the part of the evening that I think everybody's been waiting for. We're going to move 03:02:26.623 --> 03:02:33.308 - to public comment on ordinance 2026-22 as amended. Before we do, I'm gonna put on my mom voice. I'm 03:02:33.308 --> 03:02:40.594 - just as passionate and enthusiastic as you guys are, and I love it. I love that you guys have the enthusiasm 03:02:40.594 --> 03:02:47.279 - and the passion. We're gonna be orderly. Can I get a show of hands first? Because we don't wanna be 03:02:47.279 --> 03:02:49.886 - here till midnight. Nobody wants that. 03:02:50.050 --> 03:02:59.915 - So can I get a show of hands, how many want to make public comment tonight? We've got quite a few, okay. 03:02:59.915 --> 03:03:09.404 - So I, can I move, do I have to motion? Okay, so I propose that we do two minute comments. I'm moving 03:03:09.404 --> 03:03:16.638 - to suspend the rules to do two minutes so that we're not here till midnight. 03:03:19.650 --> 03:03:25.435 - I love that. That's great. And I'm saying this now. This is not unprecedented. This is something that 03:03:25.435 --> 03:03:31.504 - we do frequently when we have a lot of public comment. I also want to set the rule that we are respectful, 03:03:31.504 --> 03:03:37.290 - that we offer each speaker dignity at the microphone. If we do not agree with what they're saying, we 03:03:37.290 --> 03:03:42.962 - can do it quietly. If we agree with what they're saying, that's super. Maybe just keep it to snaps, 03:03:42.962 --> 03:03:48.690 - right? Because when you're clapping, we can't hear them. We can't move on. And it keeps us here till 03:03:48.690 --> 03:03:49.598 - midnight. Yeah? 03:03:49.954 --> 03:03:57.643 - Did I forget anything? OK, that was my mom voice. Sorry, I have three kids. I'm going to use it. Was 03:03:57.643 --> 03:04:05.637 - there a motion in there? Yeah, we need a motion if we're going to two minutes, I think. Yeah, I motioned 03:04:05.637 --> 03:04:13.555 - to suspend the rules to go to three minutes. Two minutes for what? OK, well, does somebody want to make 03:04:13.555 --> 03:04:15.230 - a motion on that? No? 03:04:18.018 --> 03:04:26.022 - Okay, somebody's considering restructuring it. Any motion, I should say? No? All right. Here we go, 03:04:26.022 --> 03:04:34.185 - guys. Three minutes. Go right ahead. Please state your name, sign in. Thank you for the snaps. I have 03:04:34.185 --> 03:04:42.589 - four pointed questions that I would like you to consider as you vote for this ordinance, now that you've 03:04:42.589 --> 03:04:44.510 - amended it. Number one, 03:04:44.706 --> 03:04:51.507 - A body cam is not defined. I don't know why you didn't do that by ordinance. You don't have one by state 03:04:51.507 --> 03:04:58.179 - law. You have a definition that doesn't exactly cover a body cam. It covers a bunch of things. You can 03:04:58.179 --> 03:05:04.721 - do that by ordinance. I don't know why you're not doing that. Question number two. Body cam usage is 03:05:04.721 --> 03:05:11.329 - defined by a BPD policy. Can you quote that? Do you know what body cam usage policy is? You're voting 03:05:11.329 --> 03:05:13.790 - something into law that will validate 03:05:14.114 --> 03:05:20.983 - the BPD policy, which I'm guessing you don't have on your desk. You can do that by ordinance in a separate 03:05:20.983 --> 03:05:27.531 - ordinance. Let them define and put it in the ordinance so it meets the standards that you wanna meet. 03:05:27.531 --> 03:05:34.529 - That's question two. Question three, data usage of what comes off the body cams is defined by some contract. 03:05:34.529 --> 03:05:41.205 - Have you seen that contract? Do you know what the standards are? If you vote for this ordinance, you're 03:05:41.205 --> 03:05:43.966 - validating some contract you haven't seen. 03:05:44.546 --> 03:05:50.151 - And that can change at any time. They could literally call the company tomorrow and renegotiate the 03:05:50.151 --> 03:05:56.093 - contract. So now you're voting for something you don't control. That's question number three. In question 03:05:56.093 --> 03:06:01.698 - number four, in that second portion, it says, hey, we can do anything we want once we assign a case 03:06:01.698 --> 03:06:07.360 - number. What's the policy for assigning a case number? Why are you validating that? Did you consider 03:06:07.360 --> 03:06:13.469 - what it takes to assign a case number? Do they just have some 16-year-old intern, yank one off the computer, 03:06:13.469 --> 03:06:14.142 - and then do 03:06:14.274 --> 03:06:21.475 - anything they want. This needed to be a separate ordinance with its own sections defining things carefully. 03:06:21.475 --> 03:06:28.343 - This was poorly considered. This was thrown in at the last minute. It wasn't even in the packet I got. 03:06:28.343 --> 03:06:35.144 - You don't know how a body cam is defined. You don't know what the body cam usage policy is. You don't 03:06:35.144 --> 03:06:41.811 - know the data usage policy. And you don't know how to assign a case number. All of those things are 03:06:41.811 --> 03:06:43.678 - now part of your ordinance. 03:06:50.594 --> 03:06:59.595 - Please sign in you have three minutes My name is Ryan and I'm a member of the Democratic Socialists 03:06:59.595 --> 03:07:08.687 - of America and the chair of the Community Defense Committee To some of you that introduction may not 03:07:08.687 --> 03:07:14.718 - be necessary as I along with my comrades have worked tirelessly to 03:07:14.850 --> 03:07:20.295 - to alert not only the city council, but the mayor and the members of the Bloomington community about 03:07:20.295 --> 03:07:25.901 - the dangers of flock and ALPR surveillance cameras. There will be plenty of comments here tonight about 03:07:25.901 --> 03:07:31.345 - why flock is bad. So I will instead address what has largely been ignored in this discussion. I will 03:07:31.345 --> 03:07:35.550 - ask why it has been developed from the perspective of a democratic socialist. 03:07:36.898 --> 03:07:43.099 - It will involve some uncomfortable truths and maybe for, maybe for you and city council and maybe even 03:07:43.099 --> 03:07:49.239 - for some other people here, but it will certainly be uncomfortable for proponents of flock flock. CEO 03:07:49.239 --> 03:07:55.680 - Garrett Langley was asked about why he started flock. My belief was simple with the right team, technology 03:07:55.680 --> 03:08:01.881 - and policies. We could not only solve, but eliminate crime. If I were a complete moron, I'd also think 03:08:01.881 --> 03:08:05.854 - that crime can be eliminated with a dragnet of mass surveillance. 03:08:05.986 --> 03:08:12.963 - The truth is that crime arises when people's material needs are not met by their government. When services 03:08:12.963 --> 03:08:19.483 - necessary to human life and prosperity are mere afterthoughts of a ruthless and misanthropic system 03:08:19.483 --> 03:08:26.003 - of economic suppression, crime is sure to follow. The system that eliminates crime, Garrett, is not 03:08:26.003 --> 03:08:32.588 - one that allows or even encourages you to amass your multi-billion dollar wealth on the backs of the 03:08:32.588 --> 03:08:33.566 - working class. 03:08:33.890 --> 03:08:40.163 - The system that eliminates crime has free healthcare and universal housing. The system that eliminates 03:08:40.163 --> 03:08:46.618 - crime has free public education and childcare. The system that eliminates crime has strong workers unions 03:08:46.618 --> 03:08:52.830 - and guaranteed employment. The system that eliminates crime helps those in need by those who are able 03:08:52.830 --> 03:08:59.224 - to help. If FLOC were to work as intended, it would be but a Band-Aid attempting to heal the lacerations 03:08:59.224 --> 03:09:02.878 - already inflicted by runaway, unchecked free market growth. 03:09:03.490 --> 03:09:09.837 - Flock doesn't intend to eliminate crime, but instead further normalize and expand the already suffocating 03:09:09.837 --> 03:09:15.825 - specter of mass surveillance. Like crime itself, it is not merely a mistake. It is not some sort of 03:09:15.825 --> 03:09:21.872 - unintended consequence, but it's the very essence of capitalism. We cannot have a serious discussion 03:09:21.872 --> 03:09:28.040 - about Flock without questioning the socioeconomic system that allows it to come about and proliferate. 03:09:28.040 --> 03:09:32.830 - I guess I asked city council to vote unanimously yes on this ordinance tonight, 03:09:33.314 --> 03:09:39.290 - It shows that we don't have to accept the way things are or where they're going, even if it is to the 03:09:39.290 --> 03:09:45.324 - chagrin of certain elected officials. I also ask you to think about what I've said here tonight, about 03:09:45.324 --> 03:09:51.182 - the real reason that crime exists. Once we as a people have this understanding, we can achieve what 03:09:51.182 --> 03:09:57.275 - Mr. Langley is surely to not, and that is eliminate crime. A better world is possible. Thank you. Thank 03:09:57.275 --> 03:10:02.430 - you very much. Next commenter here in chambers, please sign in. You have three minutes. 03:10:09.250 --> 03:10:16.390 - Hello, my name is Maria, and I'm a student at IU and a member of the steering committee at the IU chapter 03:10:16.390 --> 03:10:23.464 - of the Young Democratic Socialists of America. In my comments, I hope to represent the larger IU student 03:10:23.464 --> 03:10:30.335 - bodies' feelings about ALPR technology, because IU students, despite not being permanent residents of 03:10:30.335 --> 03:10:36.734 - Bloomington, still have a substantial stake in the outcome that the city of Bloomington makes. 03:10:37.762 --> 03:10:43.089 - Flock cameras owned by BPD are funded partially by the taxes students pay and the tax revenue that IU 03:10:43.089 --> 03:10:48.521 - generates for the city through tourism and sports. Any decision made by the city of Bloomington greatly 03:10:48.521 --> 03:10:52.542 - impacts the lives of IU students, even if they are only here for four years. 03:10:52.898 --> 03:10:57.925 - This year, IU IDSA has launched our D Flock IU campaign to an outpour of support for our campaign and 03:10:57.925 --> 03:11:03.001 - opposition to IU's Flock contracts from both students and faculties. IU's Flock contracts are separate 03:11:03.001 --> 03:11:07.930 - from Bloomington and have no impact by the city, but the contracts that IU has acquired has allowed 03:11:07.930 --> 03:11:13.055 - us to take a temperature test of the overall sentiment that students have surrounding Flock in general. 03:11:13.055 --> 03:11:17.984 - And let me just say, if you think that the citizens of Bloomington hate Flock, the students hate it 03:11:17.984 --> 03:11:18.526 - even more. 03:11:19.522 --> 03:11:24.444 - I think the students of IU can kind of speak for themselves, which is why I'll now read out a couple 03:11:24.444 --> 03:11:29.854 - of anonymous statements gathered from our online petition. It's going to be a big no thanks on the Panopticon. 03:11:31.682 --> 03:11:36.677 - Everyone on campus has the right to privacy, whether they're students, faculty, or otherwise. As a student 03:11:36.677 --> 03:11:41.438 - of IU Bloomington, living on campus means that I should feel safe walking down the street, not having 03:11:41.438 --> 03:11:46.153 - the information on my phone being sold to the highest bidder because the camera could analyze what's 03:11:46.153 --> 03:11:50.961 - on my screen. I want to be able to drive around my car without being worried about getting pulled over 03:11:50.961 --> 03:11:55.769 - or arrested for something I didn't do because of flock cameras. I feel like a camera that can identify 03:11:55.769 --> 03:12:00.670 - me or my vehicle and save my information without me having committed a crime violates my privacy rights. 03:12:00.834 --> 03:12:06.064 - Honestly, the whole idea of flock cameras sounds directly out of a Hunger Games book. I'd rather not 03:12:06.064 --> 03:12:11.294 - be part of a surveillance state or further fascism and censorship on campus or around Bloomington. I 03:12:11.294 --> 03:12:16.627 - don't feel safe being surveilled by the government or private contractors. Once we give up freedom for 03:12:16.627 --> 03:12:21.961 - safety, we lose both. Private companies have no right to track our every move, invade our privacy, and 03:12:21.961 --> 03:12:27.294 - introduce the risk of police violence on our campus. I'm worried about international students and ICE. 03:12:27.746 --> 03:12:32.682 - Unchecked government surveillance is a problem for everyone because it makes it easier to prosecute 03:12:32.682 --> 03:12:37.618 - people in a discriminatory way based on lifestyle habits or beliefs that they hold, which I find as 03:12:37.618 --> 03:12:42.603 - unjust. We are not sheep that need to be flocked. These comments reflect the reality of how students 03:12:42.603 --> 03:12:47.243 - feel about flock on campus or anywhere else they may live. Students are not isolated from the 03:12:47.243 --> 03:12:52.574 - mass surveillance project that Bloomington has enacted upon us without our consent, and we already know it. 03:12:52.802 --> 03:13:00.923 - As a student of IU, I urge the council to vote yes on this ordinance to ban ALPR technology from Bloomington. 03:13:00.923 --> 03:13:08.306 - Not only will this ordinance put students' concerns about privacy, surveillance, and safety at ease 03:13:08.306 --> 03:13:15.763 - in Bloomington, but it will also send a precedent that ALPR technology is not welcome in Bloomington 03:13:15.763 --> 03:13:21.374 - and by proxy at IU. Thank you. Thank you. Next speaker, please sign in. Hi. 03:13:21.538 --> 03:13:27.355 - My name is Rowan Morse. I'm a lifelong Bloomingtonian. The Institute for Justice has tracked over 270 03:13:27.355 --> 03:13:33.058 - instances of ALPR abuse. 82, I just updated this today because in the last couple of days it's gone 03:13:33.058 --> 03:13:38.875 - up in numbers, 82 of which are related to stalking. Over 83,000 flock cameras across the country were 03:13:38.875 --> 03:13:44.350 - used to track a woman who allegedly had an abortion. This is not what our community stands for. 03:13:44.610 --> 03:13:50.128 - Despite what the mayor says, the Condor TPZ cameras are still a danger to our community. As based off 03:13:50.128 --> 03:13:55.591 - a flock memo, while the data from these cameras are owned by the city, it is still on flock servers. 03:13:55.591 --> 03:14:01.108 - Earlier this year, it was discovered that a flock executive logged into the Dunwoody Jewish Community 03:14:01.108 --> 03:14:06.680 - Center's flock condor system, watching a children's gymnastic class for an undisclosed amount of time. 03:14:06.680 --> 03:14:12.414 - At least 60 flock condor cameras across the country were found to be accessible online and to the public. 03:14:12.546 --> 03:14:18.470 - Discovered footage shows that the condor cameras panning to track people's movements as they walked 03:14:18.470 --> 03:14:24.691 - by even so much zooming into a pedestrian's phone Close enough that you could read what was on the image 03:14:24.691 --> 03:14:30.615 - or what was on his phone at the time These are the exact type of cameras our mayor wants us to keep 03:14:30.615 --> 03:14:36.539 - please do not neuter to ordinance We are relying on you to make sure this technology is banned from 03:14:36.539 --> 03:14:38.494 - our city councilmember Stossberg 03:14:39.042 --> 03:14:44.588 - Personally want to take the rest of this comment to thank you for what you said last week Calling out 03:14:44.588 --> 03:14:50.242 - the disrespect that the mayor has shown both the county and the earth Sorry, it's both the council body 03:14:50.242 --> 03:14:55.679 - and the public the mayor walking out on console and public comment is nothing new Surprisingly, she 03:14:55.679 --> 03:15:01.333 - did not today like she usually does So sorry the mayor walking out on console public comment is nothing 03:15:01.333 --> 03:15:06.933 - new I remember back on March 4th when the City Council chambers was overflowed with protesters calling 03:15:06.933 --> 03:15:08.510 - to cancel the flock contract 03:15:08.674 --> 03:15:14.327 - The mayor was there that day but not to hear her constituents talk about what the problems were that 03:15:14.327 --> 03:15:20.205 - with her actions I'm sure that you remember during the meeting the mayor tried to force the City Council 03:15:20.205 --> 03:15:25.970 - to skip the second reading and go straight to a vote for in favor of Hopewell after her attempt failed 03:15:25.970 --> 03:15:31.624 - She left the building entirely What after what happened after that is I went back and checked it was 03:15:31.624 --> 03:15:35.038 - over an hour long of public comment that she missed that was 03:15:35.170 --> 03:15:42.618 - all about how we don't want this in our community, how we don't think that she's listening to us. Most 03:15:42.618 --> 03:15:49.994 - of them called out that she left the building entirely. All that is to say that the public is on your 03:15:49.994 --> 03:15:57.803 - side in banning this technology. The Bayer does not speak for us. She brought this danger to our community. 03:15:57.803 --> 03:16:02.142 - We are relying on you all to get it out of here. Thank you. 03:16:05.538 --> 03:16:14.399 - Thank you very much. Next speaker up at the podium, please, you may begin. Good evening, council members. 03:16:14.399 --> 03:16:22.841 - My name is Liliana Young. I'm proud to have been serving this city, both within and from without the 03:16:22.841 --> 03:16:31.451 - government for the last few years. As has been said, in 2025, a police officer in Texas hunted a woman 03:16:31.451 --> 03:16:34.878 - across state lines through flock cameras 03:16:35.170 --> 03:16:43.157 - because he knew she was seeking abortion health care. Indeed, a simple Google search will bring up an 03:16:43.157 --> 03:16:51.457 - entire list from recent years where we have a growing trend of police officers across the country abusing 03:16:51.457 --> 03:16:55.998 - ALPR technology to stalk estranged wives and girlfriends. 03:16:57.314 --> 03:17:06.003 - And anybody who's been paying attention to the news I think knows by now that the agency ICE has been 03:17:06.003 --> 03:17:15.033 - aggressively weaponizing data gathered from this technology to abduct our immigrant neighbors and friends 03:17:15.033 --> 03:17:23.552 - for the sole crime of being too brown. This abuse is not the only problem with this technology, but 03:17:23.552 --> 03:17:24.574 - it is a key 03:17:24.706 --> 03:17:33.171 - part of the problem with this technology. It is far too easy to abuse. And while we are told that we 03:17:33.171 --> 03:17:41.888 - need this technology in place to help us fight crime in our communities, the FBI's own crime statistics 03:17:41.888 --> 03:17:50.354 - show a clear and consistent pattern of crime trending downwards since the 1990s, decades before this 03:17:50.354 --> 03:17:52.030 - technology existed. 03:17:53.186 --> 03:18:01.369 - So I call the necessity of this into question on its own face. And I know, my fellow Blumentonians, 03:18:01.369 --> 03:18:09.715 - I know that if they had ever been asked to begin with, if they wanted their city to be a part of this 03:18:09.715 --> 03:18:18.143 - system of abuse, then they would have said no, which is why it makes the fact that this city ever took 03:18:18.143 --> 03:18:23.134 - part in this system to begin with not just an insult, but an 03:18:23.234 --> 03:18:30.932 - egregious and complete break of trust between this city's government and the people who live here. And 03:18:30.932 --> 03:18:38.481 - I don't know how long it will take to rebuild that trust. But passing this ordinance could be a good 03:18:38.481 --> 03:18:41.246 - first step. Thank you for your time. 03:18:52.162 --> 03:18:58.723 - online comments. Thank you. Thanks. Good evening. My name is Sarah Owen. I am the community engagement 03:18:58.723 --> 03:19:05.157 - coordinator for Exodus refugee immigration the satellite office here in Bloomington. Thanks folks. I 03:19:05.157 --> 03:19:11.654 - do want to take a moment to genuinely thank the entire city council tonight for a very thoughtful and 03:19:11.654 --> 03:19:13.374 - difficult discussion about 03:19:13.506 --> 03:19:19.749 - This ordinance these amendments and how much thought went into this I know there was disagreement tonight 03:19:19.749 --> 03:19:25.815 - But when you are meaningfully potentially changing city law, I appreciate how many Questions went into 03:19:25.815 --> 03:19:27.582 - this and the analysis of this 03:19:27.874 --> 03:19:34.079 - We are here tonight to express our support for this proposed ordinance. We wish to express the gratitude 03:19:34.079 --> 03:19:39.988 - to council members Zulek, Piedmont-Smith, and Asari for co-sponsoring this legislation. I will keep 03:19:39.988 --> 03:19:46.134 - my remarks brief. We did, of course, want to acknowledge the misuse by law enforcement in other cities. 03:19:46.134 --> 03:19:52.339 - Today actually marks three weeks to the day that just up the road in Marion County, they were announcing 03:19:52.339 --> 03:19:57.598 - charges against five Indianapolis Metro police officers for misuse of flock camera data. 03:19:58.626 --> 03:20:04.971 - But on behalf of our immigrant community tonight, we did want to focus, of course, on its misuse by 03:20:04.971 --> 03:20:11.443 - ICE for their abuses against immigrant communities across this country. I want to give a few examples 03:20:11.443 --> 03:20:17.534 - that are actual examples of people that Exodus has worked with who have been terrorized by ICE. 03:20:17.666 --> 03:20:23.612 - There was an instance. This is between Bloomington and Indianapolis There was an 18 year old girl who 03:20:23.612 --> 03:20:29.791 - called the police for help after a car accident one night That was not her fault a father who was driving 03:20:29.791 --> 03:20:35.678 - to work carrying his work permit who was dragged from his car and separated from his family for more 03:20:35.678 --> 03:20:41.566 - than a month an Afghan man who fought for this country just last Friday a 20 year old US citizen and 03:20:42.050 --> 03:20:48.034 - And arguably the most egregious example, an eight-year-old child whose mother was desperately searching 03:20:48.034 --> 03:20:53.846 - for him while he remained in a detention facility for nearly a year. These are all cases that Exodus 03:20:53.846 --> 03:20:58.046 - has worked with personally. These are human beings whose lives have been 03:20:58.722 --> 03:21:04.984 - deeply impacted by ICE, terrorized by ICE. And flock cameras make people like these, parents, children, 03:21:04.984 --> 03:21:11.126 - spouses, vulnerable to the whims of federal immigration officials who do not follow proper procedure, 03:21:11.126 --> 03:21:17.268 - who show blatant disregard for civil liberties, and who replace exercising any form of restraint with 03:21:17.268 --> 03:21:23.410 - outright brutalization. We want to acknowledge that we empathize with BPD's objectives of maintaining 03:21:23.410 --> 03:21:27.806 - public safety, but the more that Bloomington invests in data collection, 03:21:28.002 --> 03:21:34.144 - allies with profit-driven companies, and fails to take a firm stand on our community's basic rights, 03:21:34.144 --> 03:21:40.347 - the less likely our immigrant neighbors will feel safe to utilize police when they themselves are the 03:21:40.347 --> 03:21:46.732 - victim of a crime. The continued use of tools such as flock cameras and other ALPRs erodes trust between 03:21:46.732 --> 03:21:52.996 - immigrants in the community and public safety officials, and we ask you to vote yes on this ordinance. 03:21:52.996 --> 03:21:54.942 - All right. Thank you very much. 03:21:55.298 --> 03:22:03.634 - We will now go to our first speaker on zoom. You may unmute yourself and you have three minutes. 03:22:03.634 --> 03:22:12.399 - Thank you. My name is Kara silver. I'm the leader of the immigrant rights action team for indivisible 03:22:12.399 --> 03:22:21.336 - Palo Alto plus, and a member of safety over surveillance Palo Alto, a coalition of 14 groups advocating 03:22:21.336 --> 03:22:23.742 - against ALPRs in Palo Alto. 03:22:23.842 --> 03:22:31.359 - I learned of this agenda item because Bloomington is Palo Alto's sister city and some wonderful Bloomington 03:22:31.359 --> 03:22:38.458 - residents came to one of our council meetings to advocate for the cancellation of the flock contract. 03:22:38.458 --> 03:22:45.417 - Palo Alto has been closely monitoring Bloomington's actions because you are one step ahead of us in 03:22:45.417 --> 03:22:48.062 - this fight against mass surveillance. 03:22:48.194 --> 03:22:55.953 - The Palo Alto City Council recently engaged an independent police auditor to audit number one, the numerous 03:22:55.953 --> 03:23:03.353 - allegations of security breaches by FLOC. Number two, to determine whether the police department's use 03:23:03.353 --> 03:23:10.537 - of FLOC complies with the city surveillance policy. And three, to determine whether there are other 03:23:10.537 --> 03:23:11.902 - available vendors. 03:23:12.162 --> 03:23:19.924 - We are confident that the audit will show FLOC is not trustworthy and we will be urging the city council 03:23:19.924 --> 03:23:27.834 - in Palo Alto to cancel all FLOC contracts like Bloomington has done. I have reviewed the updated ordinance 03:23:27.834 --> 03:23:35.374 - and strongly support it. I think the amendments provide clarity on what types of surveillance cameras 03:23:35.374 --> 03:23:41.214 - are subject to the ban, but also provide some flexibility for law enforcement. 03:23:41.346 --> 03:23:48.910 - with the exception of amendment number five, which I think I will just defer to you all and that needs 03:23:48.910 --> 03:23:56.401 - a little bit more discussion. I look forward to sharing the final ordinance with our city council and 03:23:56.401 --> 03:24:03.819 - hope that they will adopt something similar. Thank you for your work on this and for serving as Palo 03:24:03.819 --> 03:24:05.214 - Alto's North Star. 03:24:08.802 --> 03:24:16.108 - We will go to the next commenter on Zoom. You have three minutes. You can unmute yourself and introduce 03:24:16.108 --> 03:24:23.414 - yourself, please. Hello. My name is Jamie Scholl. I'm speaking as a resident of Bloomington. And I want 03:24:23.414 --> 03:24:30.720 - to say that I agree with Thomas Westgard regarding definitions and found the importance of knowing what 03:24:30.720 --> 03:24:37.886 - the definitions in our own UDO through my experience with the urban agriculture throughout the years. 03:24:38.114 --> 03:24:44.584 - Franklin's famous quote after the Constitutional Convention was asked, what form of government do we 03:24:44.584 --> 03:24:51.119 - have? A republic, if you can keep it. The Constitution was written to guard against the concentration 03:24:51.119 --> 03:24:57.845 - of power, protect individual rights from government infringement. The Fourth Amendment, First Amendment, 03:24:57.845 --> 03:25:04.508 - and the Fourteenth as due process has been shown through video and federal government hearings to often 03:25:04.508 --> 03:25:06.494 - be ignored by law enforcement. 03:25:07.106 --> 03:25:16.601 - If, as all council members have done, to swore to uphold the Constitution, I'd like to remind you and 03:25:16.601 --> 03:25:26.096 - maybe you should reflect on what our founding documents say in these amendments. My ask this evening, 03:25:26.096 --> 03:25:33.822 - not just possibly about the definitions, but to remove immediately and permanently 03:25:34.018 --> 03:25:42.326 - surveillance cameras and until that time that all cameras are to be covered. I do not like going to 03:25:42.326 --> 03:25:51.298 - an intersection and having a camera facing me and I'm sure I'm not the only one here that has that feeling. 03:25:51.298 --> 03:25:58.110 - So those are my requests and thank you for taking on this very difficult subject. 03:26:03.042 --> 03:26:16.605 - We'll do a couple more in person and then we'll go back to online. Sorry, I just had an article I wanted 03:26:16.605 --> 03:26:27.326 - to read about. Okay. Hi, my name is Joseph Heisler. I'm a resident of Bloomington. 03:26:27.522 --> 03:26:34.405 - A lot of other people have pointed out that many officers in many cities have abused flock cameras and 03:26:34.405 --> 03:26:41.087 - similar technology. I think it's worth pointing out an article from 2016 by Dr. Annalise M. Manicki 03:26:41.087 --> 03:26:47.902 - and Katie Ropes, which revealed that the, excuse me, the rate of domestic violence perpetrated by law 03:26:47.902 --> 03:26:54.718 - enforcement officers is around 21.2%. This is something we need to acknowledge and need to understand 03:26:54.978 --> 03:27:01.282 - Unfortunately, no offense to the BPD. I don't think we can trust police officers to use this technology 03:27:01.282 --> 03:27:07.587 - appropriately. And frankly, I don't want it in our community. Thank you so much, and I urge you to vote 03:27:07.587 --> 03:27:14.558 - yes on this ordinance. Thank you very much. Next speaker here in chambers. You can sign in and introduce yourself. 03:27:24.258 --> 03:27:36.355 - Hi, my name is Oliver Hannah Grace Hinshaw, and I, as I've said before, I'm high on the autism spectrum. 03:27:36.355 --> 03:27:47.991 - I'm currently overwhelmed because I'm very excited about this. That is why I'm stuttering so much. I 03:27:47.991 --> 03:27:51.102 - wanted that on the record. 03:27:53.826 --> 03:28:03.345 - The thing that I wanted to address with the flock cameras is that oftentimes when there is surveillance 03:28:03.345 --> 03:28:12.590 - and when there is lack of representation for people like me and my friends who are marginalized, who 03:28:12.590 --> 03:28:18.814 - are higher on the autism spectrum, who are mentally ill, and to our 03:28:19.586 --> 03:28:28.734 - not of sound mind, which I personally am sound of mind. And I happen to have a very specific type of 03:28:28.734 --> 03:28:38.425 - autism that does not make me mentally impaired, but it does make me communicatively and socially impaired. 03:28:38.425 --> 03:28:48.478 - And as I'm looking around this room tonight, and as I am looking around all the representation around tonight, 03:28:49.026 --> 03:28:59.341 - There are no other people like me here. There are no other higher spectrum autistic people. There is 03:28:59.341 --> 03:29:09.759 - nobody else here who obviously has to stem in order to keep themselves and who stutters like I do and 03:29:09.759 --> 03:29:12.414 - struggles to communicate. 03:29:13.762 --> 03:29:21.615 - Oftentimes, systems like flock cameras and systems of surveillance oftentimes benefit the people who 03:29:21.615 --> 03:29:29.701 - want to target people like me, the people who are homeless, the people who are mentally ill, who aren't 03:29:29.701 --> 03:29:38.098 - getting help, and who are being actively harmed by governmental institutions because they don't understand, 03:29:38.098 --> 03:29:43.230 - and they refuse to understand us, and they continue to oppress us 03:29:43.330 --> 03:29:53.696 - over and over and over again because they refuse to see how they benefit the most and they refuse to 03:29:53.696 --> 03:30:04.164 - see or they don't understand how they, in turn, accidentally, without their own intentions or by some 03:30:04.164 --> 03:30:12.990 - malice, create the systems of oppression that, in turn, make people mentally disabled 03:30:13.218 --> 03:30:22.170 - that make people, oh, that was not correct, that make people mentally ill, that make people homeless, 03:30:22.170 --> 03:30:31.123 - and that make people impoverished. I agree with this amendment. Thank you very much. We'll go back to 03:30:31.123 --> 03:30:39.987 - Zoom. Do we still have a few people on Zoom? We'll do one or two more on Zoom before we come back to 03:30:39.987 --> 03:30:41.918 - chambers. Counselors. 03:30:42.530 --> 03:30:48.963 - My name is Scott tips, I'm a resident of City Council district one. I fully understand the concerns 03:30:48.963 --> 03:30:55.782 - of automated license plate reader technology. There are legitimate concerns about big government tracking 03:30:55.782 --> 03:31:02.473 - our movements. Furthermore, there have been documented abuses of a LPR technology. But my point tonight 03:31:02.473 --> 03:31:06.654 - is that the abuse of a thing does not invalidate its proper use. 03:31:08.770 --> 03:31:15.341 - While the abuse of cameras is concerning, ALPR has been used to rescue kidnapped children, locate stolen 03:31:15.341 --> 03:31:21.850 - vehicles, and apprehend dangerous violent criminals. The cameras have been used to rescue children from 03:31:21.850 --> 03:31:28.170 - sexual predators. The cameras are an indispensable tool for law enforcement to keep people safe from 03:31:28.170 --> 03:31:34.366 - predators. I think targeting ALPR lacks a sense of proportion, given the society we live in today. 03:31:35.010 --> 03:31:41.464 - There is no expectation of privacy in a public place or on a public street. I am under video surveillance 03:31:41.464 --> 03:31:47.978 - every time I pay for my items at the drug store or the grocery store, and cameras have become an important 03:31:47.978 --> 03:31:54.067 - security tool for private businesses. Most of us carry powerful computers in our pockets that track 03:31:54.067 --> 03:32:00.338 - our movements and give that data to multinational corporations. ALPR is small potatoes compared to all 03:32:00.338 --> 03:32:04.478 - of those things. My suggestion, instead of banning ALPR technology, 03:32:04.770 --> 03:32:11.213 - is to strictly control who has access to license plate data. Perhaps the city could negotiate an agreement 03:32:11.213 --> 03:32:17.234 - where only city law enforcement has access to the data unless there is a court order requiring this 03:32:17.234 --> 03:32:23.376 - data be turned over. Any abuse of the system should then be subject to severe consequences. Increased 03:32:23.376 --> 03:32:29.518 - transparency of who has access to the data and what data is accessed so long as it does not interfere 03:32:29.518 --> 03:32:32.830 - with a police investigation would also be a good idea. 03:32:33.282 --> 03:32:40.362 - Please vote no on this ordinance, which needlessly hinders law enforcement from protecting the public. 03:32:40.362 --> 03:32:47.854 - We need controls on the use of this technology to protect the public from abuse, but we should not eliminate 03:32:47.854 --> 03:32:54.796 - this tool completely. Thank you. Thank you very much. Do we have another speaker on Zoom? All right. 03:32:54.796 --> 03:33:02.494 - You may unmute yourself, and you have three minutes. Good evening. This is Paul Rousseau, Bloomington resident. 03:33:03.554 --> 03:33:11.414 - I would say that the surveillance state offers solutions to problems that should be solved by other 03:33:11.414 --> 03:33:19.430 - means. I strongly urge you to support this resolution. Thank you for bringing it. More than anything, 03:33:19.430 --> 03:33:27.447 - I want to point and echo the comments of the second speaker here tonight. His name is Ryan. He talked 03:33:27.447 --> 03:33:33.342 - about the root causes of crime. And the root crime, root cause, excuse me, 03:33:33.506 --> 03:33:41.539 - crime actually is systemic. And so every time Bloomington does something and the city council does something 03:33:41.539 --> 03:33:48.982 - to create more social justice, that is a crime fighting mechanism that does not have side effects. I 03:33:48.982 --> 03:33:56.351 - would remind people of what the great Adam Smith himself said, the Adam Smith, the real Adam Smith, 03:33:56.351 --> 03:33:58.046 - not this Adam Smith of 03:33:58.722 --> 03:34:06.069 - libertarian imagination who would supposedly believe that capitalism runs best without any government 03:34:06.069 --> 03:34:13.416 - intervention. The real Adam Smith wrote, wherever there is great property, there is great inequality. 03:34:13.416 --> 03:34:21.268 - For one very rich man, there must be at least 500 poor, and the affluence of the rich supposes the indigence 03:34:21.268 --> 03:34:26.526 - of the many. That's the source of crime, as Ryan pointed out. Thank you. 03:34:27.874 --> 03:34:37.482 - Thank you very much, Mr. Russo. We can come back here in chambers. You can sign in and state your name, 03:34:37.482 --> 03:34:46.813 - and then you have three minutes. Hello. Sorry. My name is Jenna Baker. I'm a little nervous. I am an 03:34:46.813 --> 03:34:56.052 - IU student, and I wanted to talk about why it's so important that this ordinance passes. I'm from a 03:34:56.052 --> 03:34:57.438 - place not too. 03:34:57.570 --> 03:35:04.297 - similar to Bloomington, a small town north in Indiana. And since coming here, it's meant so much to 03:35:04.297 --> 03:35:11.023 - me. All the amazing people I've met here on and off campus, it gets a little constricting. It makes 03:35:11.023 --> 03:35:17.952 - my chest feel a little tight when I think of living back where I did forever as a trans woman and just 03:35:17.952 --> 03:35:24.948 - knowing that there are people who will love me and accept me up here is amazing. And that's why I think 03:35:24.948 --> 03:35:25.822 - that this is 03:35:25.954 --> 03:35:31.871 - The city and these people are worth protecting, and I came up with a lot of reasons. Maybe I'll talk 03:35:31.871 --> 03:35:37.848 - about them more if there's time about how everyone is affected by the flock cameras. And that's true. 03:35:37.848 --> 03:35:43.765 - Everyone is going to be affected by these cameras, like it or not. But I don't think everyone should 03:35:43.765 --> 03:35:49.682 - need to be affected. I think the people talk about how flock cameras will increase safety, will save 03:35:49.682 --> 03:35:53.022 - lives, but that will still come with the price of blood. 03:35:53.410 --> 03:36:01.879 - As this technology is used to aid ICE, people will die, families will be separated, there will be more 03:36:01.879 --> 03:36:10.347 - harm than good. Even past that, I know, of course, I've mentioned I am a trans woman, but I still hold 03:36:10.347 --> 03:36:18.651 - a relative amount of privilege. I'm white, I'm middle class, I'm a United States citizen, and so are 03:36:18.651 --> 03:36:21.118 - my parents and their parents. 03:36:22.242 --> 03:36:28.546 - And I'm still terrified to walk down the street, because I don't know who might be looking at me, or 03:36:28.546 --> 03:36:35.037 - if they might be looking at my chest, or if they might be looking at my crotch. Because I get terrified 03:36:35.037 --> 03:36:41.465 - every time I use the bathroom. And even someone like me needs to worry about where people are looking. 03:36:41.465 --> 03:36:47.707 - A surveillance system that will be looking at everyone, people who are in much more danger than me, 03:36:47.707 --> 03:36:48.830 - looking much more 03:36:48.930 --> 03:36:55.896 - Intently and with much more malicious intent than a random passer by down the street. I I think that's 03:36:55.896 --> 03:37:02.726 - terrifying and It's amazing to see everyone come together on this. I just I want to reiterate. Oh, I 03:37:02.726 --> 03:37:09.759 - guess one more thing I think it is really important that I know one of the amendments mentioned Getting 03:37:09.759 --> 03:37:12.126 - rid of flock as a name as a target 03:37:12.226 --> 03:37:18.760 - That's really important, because as soon as flock goes away, there will be something else. There have 03:37:18.760 --> 03:37:25.230 - already started to be other types of cameras. And we need to make sure that we keep up the pressure, 03:37:25.230 --> 03:37:31.893 - keep up the momentum on them, even as the widely-known label of flock starts to go away. I think that's 03:37:31.893 --> 03:37:38.491 - all my ramblings collected. Thank you all so much. Thank you very much. Next speaker here in chambers, 03:37:38.491 --> 03:37:41.694 - you can begin. Hello. My name is Seiforth Breeze. 03:37:42.242 --> 03:37:49.250 - Wanted to speak to some of the amendment items that are now part of the general ordinance to clarify 03:37:49.250 --> 03:37:56.188 - some of my concerns that I had had there I think going back to I think it was Tom or Thomas what he 03:37:56.188 --> 03:38:03.612 - said earlier about feeling like This might be an important enough sort of series of questions and concerns 03:38:03.612 --> 03:38:06.942 - that perhaps we should split and like approve a 03:38:07.106 --> 03:38:15.468 - a significant portion of this package, but circle back around to questions around the body cameras and 03:38:15.468 --> 03:38:24.235 - the dash cams. So one of my questions and concerns around it is the fact that it was said, it felt somewhat 03:38:24.235 --> 03:38:32.435 - facetiously about perhaps we'll put body cameras, we would never put body cameras on a pole and just 03:38:32.435 --> 03:38:34.302 - pass it off as, right? 03:38:35.202 --> 03:38:42.030 - The fact that the body cameras, if they still are, if they have a built-in functionality to collect 03:38:42.030 --> 03:38:48.994 - in an automated fashion this information and collect all this metadata that is extraneous to just the 03:38:48.994 --> 03:38:55.822 - clip itself, then that one part is like a significant problem, right? That we could just include in 03:38:55.822 --> 03:39:02.718 - this package or a future package that that metadata should be scraped from the footage and it should 03:39:02.718 --> 03:39:04.766 - just be the straight footage. 03:39:04.930 --> 03:39:11.457 - sidestep it or require that our body cameras and our dash cams that we are implementing going forward 03:39:11.457 --> 03:39:18.048 - do not have that functionality built into it. So it was less of a question for me about whether or not 03:39:18.048 --> 03:39:24.575 - we are sending it to a third party cloud if it's got that end-to-end encryption. It's the question of 03:39:24.575 --> 03:39:31.102 - what additional capabilities are built into it that then pack in that information so we're, you know, 03:39:31.362 --> 03:39:40.046 - it can be used in those ways that are unpredictable in court proceedings going forward, right? But more 03:39:40.046 --> 03:39:48.480 - to the question of the placement or imagining that this somehow limits the capacity of surveillance. 03:39:48.480 --> 03:39:56.914 - I mean, all of the protests on campus or even the labor actions on campus where folks are just doing 03:39:56.914 --> 03:39:58.334 - a picket, right? 03:39:58.690 --> 03:40:04.996 - There will often be IUPD sitting there with their, you know, with their cameras on watching the proceedings 03:40:04.996 --> 03:40:10.836 - and taking footage of every person's face, right? Which is to speak nothing of like positioning cop 03:40:10.836 --> 03:40:16.675 - cars strategically on streets in such a way that they're collecting that data and then if there's a 03:40:16.675 --> 03:40:22.514 - court case that comes up, it's like oops, you know, it's within that realm where we're holding that 03:40:22.514 --> 03:40:25.726 - data and now we've just, we are liable to pass it off. 03:40:25.858 --> 03:40:32.826 - and we have to pass it off, and it has that metadata collected on it. So I might be misunderstanding 03:40:32.826 --> 03:40:40.001 - the feasibility of that or aspects of that, but it's still there to me. Thank you. Thank you very much. 03:40:40.001 --> 03:40:47.314 - Next speaker here in chambers. Howdy, hi. I am Penn Bailey, and I'd like to start by thanking our friends 03:40:47.314 --> 03:40:54.558 - over at our sister city in Palo Alto. Thank you guys for showing up tonight. I would also like to speak. 03:40:55.074 --> 03:40:57.790 - Sorry, I'm nervous. I'll just start. 03:40:58.210 --> 03:41:03.644 - We have had a lack of clarity that I think many have begin to feel dishonest when it has come to the 03:41:03.644 --> 03:41:09.238 - cameras and how they are used in this city. To say that people are dissatisfied is as obvious as saying 03:41:09.238 --> 03:41:15.102 - there's been a lot of speakers on this subject tonight. What ARPR is and isn't has been kind of a convenient 03:41:15.102 --> 03:41:20.590 - distraction from what the people are saying which is we do not want AI surveillance. The right to our 03:41:20.590 --> 03:41:25.969 - innocence and our privacy has been under fire and the results are these companies and the contracts 03:41:25.969 --> 03:41:27.422 - and these fear mongers who 03:41:27.714 --> 03:41:33.385 - profit from our fear and who create these, sorry, who create and enforce the fear that has created the 03:41:33.385 --> 03:41:38.946 - hypervigilization and the isolation that plagues our communities today, where people do not know the 03:41:38.946 --> 03:41:44.838 - names of our neighbors and do not trust them so much as to let them on their own porch without threatening 03:41:44.838 --> 03:41:50.344 - them. We keep hearing stories of predominantly people of color being shot for approaching someone's 03:41:50.344 --> 03:41:55.850 - doors, children being shot and killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time because people 03:41:55.850 --> 03:41:57.502 - do not trust their neighbors. 03:41:57.634 --> 03:42:05.438 - It is a for-profit thing. Like we know that the crime rate is going down. We know that it has been going 03:42:05.438 --> 03:42:12.574 - down for years. And I hope that Bloomington can see through this and does not prioritize profit 03:42:12.834 --> 03:42:18.239 - over the safety of our community in a time where the queer community, the immigrant community, 03:42:18.239 --> 03:42:24.100 - the communities of color are vulnerable and our poor are under attack as Indiana continues to push for 03:42:24.100 --> 03:42:29.903 - more involvement with things like ICE and FLOC and people who profit from our fear. When they push to 03:42:29.903 --> 03:42:31.838 - take over our town, we push back. 03:42:32.226 --> 03:42:38.471 - And I want to thank everyone here who did not wait for another murder to cross their news ways before 03:42:38.471 --> 03:42:44.593 - coming here tonight, who has seen what has happened already and gave up their evening to remind the 03:42:44.593 --> 03:42:50.899 - council and the mayor who it is they serve and what they do. Thank you so much. And thank you so much. 03:42:50.899 --> 03:42:57.266 - Thank you very much. All right, next speaker here in chambers. Thank you. I'm sorry, are you doing Zoom 03:42:57.266 --> 03:43:01.246 - or? I didn't hear what you said. Oh, OK. My name is Chris Doran. 03:43:01.442 --> 03:43:09.580 - I just like to highlight that the mayor has spent almost the entire time a public comment on her phone 03:43:09.580 --> 03:43:17.482 - So I'm just curious. Perhaps the mayor doesn't understand the point of this meeting How many people 03:43:17.482 --> 03:43:24.830 - are in support of passing this ordinance? Mayor Thompson, did you hear that? No answer. Okay 03:43:25.058 --> 03:43:31.579 - So I'm a proud member of the Bloomington DSA. We've had four demands. The first demand being remove 03:43:31.579 --> 03:43:38.165 - all cameras with proof. The second demand, cancel all contracts with proof. The third demand, no new 03:43:38.165 --> 03:43:44.816 - contracts with proof. This ordinance addresses all three, and I think I speak on the vast majority of 03:43:44.816 --> 03:43:50.750 - DSA members that were extremely pleased. I'd like to thank, in particular, council members 03:43:51.074 --> 03:43:58.519 - Piedmont, Smith, Zoellick, and Asari for pushing this through, and especially mayoral candidate Sydney 03:43:58.519 --> 03:44:05.891 - Zoellick for taking the lead on initiating this. So the fourth demand that we have is for independent 03:44:05.891 --> 03:44:13.191 - full audits. The city in April 15th when there was a memo from both police chief Decoff and a police 03:44:13.191 --> 03:44:19.262 - chief, I'm sorry, and the mayor Thompson, there are memos sent to the city council. 03:44:19.522 --> 03:44:27.451 - Outlining, in very specific terms, the internal audits the Blooming Police Department conducts. We would 03:44:27.451 --> 03:44:35.456 - like those internal audits released. We've heard from many people tonight that there are serious concerns 03:44:35.456 --> 03:44:43.083 - with abuses conducted by law enforcement. And the best way to ensure that there have not been abuses 03:44:43.083 --> 03:44:47.614 - conducted is by releasing those internal audits as a start. 03:44:48.610 --> 03:44:54.652 - The second way is to pursue a full and independent audit. You heard that our colleagues from safety 03:44:54.652 --> 03:45:00.755 - over surveillance in Palo Alto, they look to Bloomington as their north star. They have initiated an 03:45:00.755 --> 03:45:06.797 - audit process. We've also communicated to various council members a number of different audits that 03:45:06.797 --> 03:45:12.900 - have been conducted by including city councils in red states, similar to our situation. And we would 03:45:12.900 --> 03:45:18.398 - very much like to see a full and independent audit. So my question, if either police chief 03:45:18.530 --> 03:45:24.095 - Dikhoff or the mayor would like to respond, even with a nod or perhaps she's too busy on her phone, 03:45:24.095 --> 03:45:29.883 - is whether they will release the internal audits that they advocated show that there was no abuse, that 03:45:29.883 --> 03:45:35.559 - the system was completely transparent and in control and that everything was absolutely fantastic. If 03:45:35.559 --> 03:45:41.124 - that's the case, then there should be no reason not to release those audits. And again, both in the 03:45:41.124 --> 03:45:46.689 - memo of April 15th and the memo, oh, whoa. Okay, so you're moving right along. Will you release the 03:45:46.689 --> 03:45:48.414 - audits? Please, Chief Dikhoff. 03:45:49.218 --> 03:45:58.900 - Oh Good no, no response. All right. Thank you. Oh and I'm in support All right. Thank you as a reminder 03:45:58.900 --> 03:46:08.675 - the comments are to City Council so we cannot sorry to the chair so We cannot be addressing our comments 03:46:08.675 --> 03:46:15.006 - to anybody individually. Thank you next speaker here in in chambers 03:46:15.810 --> 03:46:21.594 - I'm a new resident of Bloomington. I just want to thank you all the count on the council for taking 03:46:21.594 --> 03:46:27.725 - up this important issue I urge you to approve this ordinance and stand with the people against repression 03:46:27.725 --> 03:46:33.278 - and over surveillance I also urge you to further amendment amend it particularly amendment five 03:46:33.378 --> 03:46:40.891 - With more clarification and definitions, two or three points, police and law enforcement are the main 03:46:40.891 --> 03:46:48.478 - abusers of ALPR technologies and so why are we trusting them to decide about how body cam and dash cam 03:46:48.478 --> 03:46:55.843 - data are being used? Those data can still be sold and fed into these AI processing technologies and 03:46:55.843 --> 03:46:57.022 - likely will be. 03:46:57.186 --> 03:47:03.889 - Two, nowhere in the ordinance does it prevent the use of body cam or dash cam footage. And with that 03:47:03.889 --> 03:47:10.724 - and that we talked about at the beginning of this commentary, it's not just about collecting the data, 03:47:10.724 --> 03:47:17.560 - but about how that data is processed and using these AI technologies to process the data. Third point, 03:47:17.560 --> 03:47:24.395 - let the police gather data in the way that is legally approved for criminal cases, and that is through 03:47:24.395 --> 03:47:26.718 - subpoenas and warrants. Thank you. 03:47:29.474 --> 03:47:37.536 - Do we still have some commenters online for? Okay, we're gonna do two, the next two commenters online 03:47:37.536 --> 03:47:45.518 - and then we'll come back here to chambers. You may take yourself off of mute and introduce yourself. 03:47:45.518 --> 03:47:53.738 - Thank you. My full legal name is Mark Timothy Hodges. I live at 123 Redbud Lane in Brown County. I work 03:47:53.738 --> 03:47:56.030 - with clients in Bloomington. 03:47:56.258 --> 03:48:02.864 - doing video production and marketing, and part of my work is exposing ICE abuses of power. I'm asking 03:48:02.864 --> 03:48:09.339 - you to pass this ordinance. We need to talk honestly about the moment we're in. The rise of fascism 03:48:09.339 --> 03:48:15.880 - in this country makes every decision to expand government surveillance more dangerous. Fascism needs 03:48:15.880 --> 03:48:23.004 - machinery, information about where people go, who they meet, and who's willing to stand up. Local governments 03:48:23.004 --> 03:48:25.918 - need to ask whether they're helping to build 03:48:26.114 --> 03:48:33.014 - that machinery and these systems get license plates wrong with consequences that go way beyond a bad 03:48:33.014 --> 03:48:39.368 - entry in a database. The Institute for Justice has documented innocent people being stopped, 03:48:39.368 --> 03:48:46.269 - held at gunpoint, jailed and worse because of plate reader errors. In Toledo, Ohio, a camera misread 03:48:46.269 --> 03:48:53.101 - one digit and police held an innocent driver at gunpoint, unleashed a dog on him and jailed him for 03:48:53.101 --> 03:48:55.902 - hours. One wrong digit and a real person 03:48:56.738 --> 03:49:02.842 - haze for this. So when we hear, if you haven't done anything wrong, you don't have anything to fear. 03:49:02.842 --> 03:49:09.248 - The evidence says otherwise. My work depends on people being willing to speak openly, share the evidence, 03:49:09.248 --> 03:49:15.534 - show up. What happens when they believe meeting an organizer or documenting an enforcement action could 03:49:15.534 --> 03:49:22.061 - leave a searchable trail? People get scared. The chilling effect, truly, they stay home. They stop talking. 03:49:22.061 --> 03:49:25.566 - You don't have to arrest everyone to silence a community. 03:49:26.050 --> 03:49:32.777 - We need enforceable limits on power. Unchecked warrantless surveillance could never, it should never 03:49:32.777 --> 03:49:39.770 - become the price of using a public road, a public road like State Road 135 or 46. I am pushing to remove 03:49:39.770 --> 03:49:46.963 - fog cameras in Brown County too. These documented failures are part of why our neighbors deserve protection 03:49:46.963 --> 03:49:53.690 - from both deliberate abuse and dangerous, uneducated mistakes. Our lives cross county lines. We come 03:49:53.690 --> 03:49:54.622 - here to work, 03:49:54.882 --> 03:50:01.837 - We come here to meet clients, get care, organize. Your decisions affect us directly. You cannot fix 03:50:01.837 --> 03:50:08.932 - everything happening in Washington DC, but you can decide what Bloomington builds, funds, and refuses 03:50:08.932 --> 03:50:16.095 - to normalize. Pass this ordinance. When people ask what local government did as authoritarianism grew, 03:50:16.095 --> 03:50:23.329 - I want Bloomington's answer to be we protected our neighbors and we refuse to help build the machinery. 03:50:23.329 --> 03:50:24.094 - Thank you. 03:50:25.986 --> 03:50:32.778 - Thank you. All right, we'll go to the next commenter on Zoom. You can unmute yourself and you have three 03:50:32.778 --> 03:50:39.635 - minutes. Good evening. My name is Dr. Tara Dunderdale. I'm addressing you tonight as resident of district 03:50:39.635 --> 03:50:46.233 - three and a parent of two young children. I would like to be able to spend time in our beautiful city 03:50:46.233 --> 03:50:52.766 - with my children without their movements and faces being tracked by police and private corporations. 03:50:52.994 --> 03:50:58.869 - I want to express my enthusiastic support for this ordinance. I especially think it's important to stipulate 03:50:58.869 --> 03:51:04.260 - that city staff cannot access these data sets even if we get rid of the cameras in our communities. 03:51:04.260 --> 03:51:10.081 - And yes, I do believe this should extend to ring cameras and other privatized networks of mass surveillance 03:51:10.081 --> 03:51:15.795 - that erode trust between our neighbors and undermine our community ties. These tools of mass surveillance 03:51:15.795 --> 03:51:21.401 - are antithetical to a free and open democracy. They erode public trust, put our most vulnerable members 03:51:21.401 --> 03:51:22.910 - of our community in danger, 03:51:23.138 --> 03:51:28.902 - are a waste of precious city resources and have a massive negative environmental impact related to the 03:51:28.902 --> 03:51:34.946 - data centers required to operate them. The way the mayor's office has refused to be transparent, obfuscated 03:51:34.946 --> 03:51:40.598 - the truth and misled the public about its use of mass surveillance tools demonstrates how little the 03:51:40.598 --> 03:51:46.585 - mayor's office and the police department respect the people of Bloomington and our privacy and our rights. 03:51:46.585 --> 03:51:51.230 - These tools make all of us less safe and undermine our ability to build community. 03:51:51.714 --> 03:51:57.768 - What's more, there is mounting evidence that we have heard from many speakers tonight that departments 03:51:57.768 --> 03:52:03.940 - across the country, including many here in Indiana, use these tools for stalking, personal and financial 03:52:03.940 --> 03:52:09.995 - gain, or even their own entertainment. A recent investigation by Electronic Funds Frontier showed that 03:52:09.995 --> 03:52:15.873 - police officers searched these databases for reasons that they documented as LOL, I don't know, and 03:52:15.873 --> 03:52:17.342 - bashing a bunch of keys. 03:52:17.858 --> 03:52:23.894 - In addition to prohibiting the use of these tools, the city should get an external third party audit 03:52:23.894 --> 03:52:29.871 - of how the data have been used by our city police department and make that information available to 03:52:29.871 --> 03:52:35.907 - the public. I am pleased to see council taking such a serious stance against these tools of fascism. 03:52:35.907 --> 03:52:41.943 - Thank you. Thank you very much. Next speaker here in chambers, you may introduce yourself and begin. 03:52:41.943 --> 03:52:47.262 - You have three minutes. Hello, I'm Lily Malcolm and I'm a newly inducted Bloomingtonian. 03:52:47.362 --> 03:52:53.962 - And I wanted to thank you. I wanted to first thank my friends, my comrades and my neighbors for showing 03:52:53.962 --> 03:53:00.626 - out and dedicating a portion of their night to show support for this ordinance. Thank you to the council 03:53:00.626 --> 03:53:02.974 - for your deliberation on this topic. 03:53:03.106 --> 03:53:09.124 - Like many in this room, I am here in support for this ordinance. I will keep my comment relatively brief 03:53:09.124 --> 03:53:15.199 - since many have touched on points that I wholeheartedly agree with. We deserve to be able to walk outside 03:53:15.199 --> 03:53:20.930 - without the fear that our day-to-day activities will be tracked and subsequently weaponized against 03:53:20.930 --> 03:53:26.718 - us by not only corporations like FLOC, but the undeniable, fundamentally untrustworthy police force. 03:53:26.786 --> 03:53:32.516 - I should not have to worry every day that I'm going to get a phone call from my mother, that my adopted 03:53:32.516 --> 03:53:38.136 - brother or sister have been detained by ICE, or that my partners have been wrongfully detained by the 03:53:38.136 --> 03:53:43.757 - police while exercising their constitutional rights or by simply existing. No one deserves to live in 03:53:43.757 --> 03:53:49.487 - that fear, and yet here we all are with this exact fear in our hearts. We all deserve to have our civil 03:53:49.487 --> 03:53:53.950 - liberties protected, our rights upheld, and we deserve to have our voices heard. 03:53:54.178 --> 03:54:01.334 - All of us, our immigrant neighbors, our trans brothers and sisters, our children, and all of our most 03:54:01.334 --> 03:54:08.210 - vulnerable populations. Do your duty and protect all of us. We are watching and we will remember. 03:54:08.210 --> 03:54:15.226 - Thank you. Thank you very much. Next speaker here in chambers. You may sign in and state your name. 03:54:15.226 --> 03:54:21.470 - You have three minutes. All right. Do you want me to sign in again? I signed in earlier. 03:54:23.394 --> 03:54:29.695 - 100%, yes. Yeah, I was gonna say a little something when I got up here. I was like, yeah, let me continue 03:54:29.695 --> 03:54:35.698 - from where I left off earlier. Sorry, I had to leave earlier. I had a midterm, actually, at 8.05, so 03:54:35.698 --> 03:54:41.642 - I had to leave and go to a class and take a test. But I'm glad that this meeting was long, so I had 03:54:41.642 --> 03:54:47.764 - enough time to come out and speak my mind on Flock here. So I've got a little something prepared here. 03:54:47.764 --> 03:54:53.054 - I'm just gonna read it real fast. Some of the topics have been brought up by some of the 03:54:53.250 --> 03:55:00.493 - people from before me, so I appreciate the inputs that they have had. We came here today because Bloomington 03:55:00.493 --> 03:55:07.205 - and Monroe County did the right thing by dropping flock security. But right now we are living with a 03:55:07.205 --> 03:55:14.448 - dangerous double standard. Indiana University through the institutions of IU Parking and IUPD are collecting 03:55:14.448 --> 03:55:20.894 - student information through the usage of automated license plate readers or ALPRs. Flock safety. 03:55:21.346 --> 03:55:28.811 - markets its technology as a vehicle-focused, but its actual capabilities go far beyond simple license 03:55:28.811 --> 03:55:36.643 - plate reading. AI-driven tools like Guardian Mode are capable of automatically tracking, panning, zooming, 03:55:36.643 --> 03:55:44.254 - and following specific pedestrians in real time. Internal training materials reveal officers are taught 03:55:44.254 --> 03:55:50.622 - to track individuals from location to location. These cameras offer police departments 03:55:50.754 --> 03:55:58.746 - powerful tools to track down criminals based on physical descriptions. However, with great power comes 03:55:58.746 --> 03:56:06.505 - great responsibility. And without adequate protections, such as the law, such as the enforcement of 03:56:06.505 --> 03:56:14.497 - a court issued warrant to access flock safety footage, we do not have to guess what happens when these 03:56:14.497 --> 03:56:16.670 - systems are left unchecked. 03:56:17.186 --> 03:56:23.347 - Sorry, sorry, I kinda skipped there. We don't have to guess what happens when these systems are left 03:56:23.347 --> 03:56:29.569 - unchecked, right? The Indianapolis Municipal Police Department just recently had five police officers 03:56:29.569 --> 03:56:35.913 - charged with stalking under the Marion County Prosecutor's Office. One of them resigned their positions 03:56:35.913 --> 03:56:42.013 - at the outset of the allegations, however the other four are facing litigation. It's not surprising 03:56:42.013 --> 03:56:45.246 - that this sort of technology with this sort of power 03:56:45.730 --> 03:56:53.876 - has been abused so close to where we are currently. In fact, they're having a meeting about it the 19th, 03:56:53.876 --> 03:57:01.712 - Monday the 19th. However, particularly with how it relates to IU Police Department, I think with the 03:57:01.712 --> 03:57:09.858 - age range of officers, the turnaround rate, and the fact that we are training college students to become 03:57:09.858 --> 03:57:14.590 - police officers at IUPD, it just introduces another layer of 03:57:15.202 --> 03:57:21.886 - of risk there, especially if these cameras are being used in residence halls. So thank you for your 03:57:21.886 --> 03:57:28.703 - time, and I appreciate you. Thank you very much. And I hope you get an A on your midterm next speaker 03:57:28.703 --> 03:57:35.387 - here in chambers. Hello. My name is Sarah St. John Wolford. I want to start by thanking you all for 03:57:35.387 --> 03:57:42.204 - being here tonight and discussing this. We are a blue dot in a red state. Camera footage will be used 03:57:42.204 --> 03:57:43.006 - against us. 03:57:43.618 --> 03:57:50.087 - Right now, it's being used against people with perceived immigration status, citizens that are flagged 03:57:50.087 --> 03:57:56.681 - as suspicious with traffic patterns analyzed by bots, and people who have caught the attraction or anger 03:57:56.681 --> 03:58:03.087 - of someone with access to that footage. The ways this can be manipulated and lack of local control is 03:58:03.087 --> 03:58:03.966 - unacceptable. 03:58:04.578 --> 03:58:12.056 - ALPRs do not make us safer. It gives some the illusion of safety while selling out the marginalized 03:58:12.056 --> 03:58:19.758 - and most vulnerable in our community. Federal funding is already being tied to compliance on reporting 03:58:19.758 --> 03:58:27.460 - individuals. But we cannot overturn information or video surveillance we do not have. It is imperative 03:58:27.460 --> 03:58:30.302 - that for our own safety we ban these. 03:58:30.402 --> 03:58:37.022 - I understand there is a concern from some of how this might get in the way of surveillance, but the 03:58:37.022 --> 03:58:44.105 - public is more averse to surveillance than we are concerned with providing videos to the state and federal 03:58:44.105 --> 03:58:51.122 - government. I think it's important to acknowledge that this isn't technology that has never been helpful, 03:58:51.122 --> 03:58:57.808 - but when we put this issue on the scales of justice, the evident harm outweighs any good. Thank you. 03:58:57.808 --> 03:58:59.198 - Thank you very much. 03:58:59.554 --> 03:59:08.363 - We'll check back in online. We still have a couple commenters online. All right. The next commenter 03:59:08.363 --> 03:59:17.173 - on Zoom. You are unmuted. You have three minutes. Hello. Yes, my name is Nancy Goswami, and I would 03:59:17.173 --> 03:59:25.630 - like to thank everyone in chambers tonight and online. I would encourage you to vote to suspend 03:59:25.794 --> 03:59:37.924 - any type of surveillance cameras in our community. And one thing I'd like to review is the history of 03:59:37.924 --> 03:59:50.291 - surveillance in the United States. It evolved from early colonialism and slave patrols. And now we have 03:59:50.291 --> 03:59:54.334 - intelligence agencies and private 03:59:54.466 --> 04:00:05.114 - corporations surveilling us, and we don't even know who those people are. And it creates a society of, 04:00:05.114 --> 04:00:16.072 - creates a level of heightened mistrust and fear. And it has the potential of devolving us into a paranoid 04:00:16.072 --> 04:00:23.102 - society, not knowing who, you know, we can't trust even each other. 04:00:23.618 --> 04:00:38.048 - And what I'd like to also highlight is that the working class are primarily the ones that are being 04:00:38.048 --> 04:00:44.542 - surveilled. And they're doing this under the 04:00:44.642 --> 04:00:53.704 - You know, saying, you know, saying that they're trying to eliminate crime. However, we know that there 04:00:53.704 --> 04:01:01.182 - are white color crimes and those are not being surveilled and So I'm just, you know, 04:01:01.794 --> 04:01:11.678 - want to thank you and also I want to consider I want you to consider that perhaps the definition and 04:01:11.678 --> 04:01:21.464 - the future that you maybe you should look consider is cameras on drones that these corporations can 04:01:21.464 --> 04:01:30.174 - if you're not allowing them to have fixed cameras that perhaps they would switch them to 04:01:30.306 --> 04:01:39.154 - some type of drone cameras. Thank you. Thank you very much. Next commenter on Zoom, please. You can 04:01:39.154 --> 04:01:48.532 - unmute yourself and you have three minutes. Hi, my name is Raisa. And like other people said, I am really 04:01:48.532 --> 04:01:57.468 - grateful to the council for bringing this ordinance and especially to the three people who sponsored 04:01:57.468 --> 04:01:59.326 - and co-sponsored it. 04:01:59.554 --> 04:02:06.377 - I would like to urge the council to pass this with enough of a majority that it signals to the mayor 04:02:06.377 --> 04:02:13.268 - there's no reason to veto it because it would pass anyway. And if it even passed unanimously, I think 04:02:13.268 --> 04:02:20.023 - that would make Bloomington a leader in protecting its citizens from ALPR technology. Thanks. Thank 04:02:20.023 --> 04:02:26.914 - you very much. Next speaker here in chambers. If you haven't signed in, please be sure to do that and 04:02:26.914 --> 04:02:29.278 - you can state your name and begin. 04:02:30.402 --> 04:02:40.266 - My name is miles and First comment is for the deputy mayor and soon-to-be ex mayor and They don't seem 04:02:40.266 --> 04:02:49.843 - to understand that when I have this in my pocket I consent to that but I don't remember being asked 04:02:49.843 --> 04:02:58.462 - for my consent for Their constituents to be spied on with ALPR cameras whenever they want 04:03:00.066 --> 04:03:08.539 - So Begs me to question whether or not they would consent if a condor camera was placed right outside 04:03:08.539 --> 04:03:17.180 - of their door or potentially if chief would agree to putting a camera inside every single BPD car that 04:03:17.180 --> 04:03:25.905 - we can tune in whenever we want to we'll know what's going on there If you're not doing anything wrong, 04:03:25.905 --> 04:03:28.254 - what's the big deal? Thanks 04:03:29.698 --> 04:03:36.326 - Thank you very much. Next speaker here in chambers. You can sign in, and you have three minutes. State 04:03:36.326 --> 04:03:43.082 - your name when you're ready. Hi, Council. My name is Andrew. I just want to echo the sentiments of those 04:03:43.082 --> 04:03:49.839 - who have already spoken who have opposed the use of this technology. I think the drawbacks, the dangers, 04:03:49.839 --> 04:03:56.852 - the unreliability, and the recorded abuses of ALPR and AI surveillance technology far outweigh any potential 04:03:56.852 --> 04:03:58.654 - benefits that it may offer. 04:03:58.882 --> 04:04:05.669 - I think it's also important to note that any potential benefits that come from this technology are not 04:04:05.669 --> 04:04:12.719 - unique to this technology and can be achieved by other more secure forms such as CCTV. The main difference 04:04:12.719 --> 04:04:19.308 - being that third parties don't have access to it. There have already been too many documented cases 04:04:19.308 --> 04:04:25.831 - of this technology being abused by bad actors and more will follow unless it is banned everywhere. 04:04:25.831 --> 04:04:27.742 - Personally, I feel less safe 04:04:27.842 --> 04:04:33.948 - in a society where the state and third-party contractors Watching the public's every move and tracking 04:04:33.948 --> 04:04:39.936 - our location and movement patterns is being normalized We are currently living in a moment of rising 04:04:39.936 --> 04:04:45.924 - authoritarianism and one classic trait of authoritarians is State-sanctioned mass surveillance so to 04:04:45.924 --> 04:04:52.089 - preserve and protect our freedom and democracy. It's imperative that we push back against authoritarian 04:04:52.089 --> 04:04:57.662 - overreach at every turn You cannot give an inch or they will take a mile every single time. I 04:04:58.242 --> 04:05:04.023 - As such I would like to voice my disappointment about the council members that supported amendment 5 04:05:04.023 --> 04:05:09.919 - on this resolution It will almost certainly lead to further abuses due to the enormous loophole opened 04:05:09.919 --> 04:05:15.815 - by that amendment That being said this ordinance is still a good first step. I commend the council for 04:05:15.815 --> 04:05:21.997 - bringing it forward I urge you to pass it and I also urge the mayor to pass it Into law to make Bloomington 04:05:21.997 --> 04:05:26.462 - a better place for all of us who live here and for those who visit. Thank you 04:05:35.010 --> 04:05:43.803 - Here in chambers. Do I see? Sorry, my microphone was. Hi, Steve Olin. I first want to say that Oliver's 04:05:43.803 --> 04:05:50.398 - not the only person in the room on the autism spectrum and they're not alone. 04:05:50.850 --> 04:05:57.163 - I was here earlier to present the Transportation Commission's endorsements from the Walker parking study 04:05:57.163 --> 04:06:03.417 - I want to call attention to one of their recommendations that we rejected recommendation ot2 quote upon 04:06:03.417 --> 04:06:09.550 - moving to a pay-by-plate multi-space meter system for on-street parking update the enforcement system 04:06:09.550 --> 04:06:15.622 - to mobile LPR technology and transition to digital permits unquote again the Commission rejected the 04:06:15.622 --> 04:06:19.230 - recommendation this recommendation from the consultants and 04:06:20.194 --> 04:06:26.908 - The city is already wrestling with data policy in the way that documents are published by next April. 04:06:26.908 --> 04:06:33.886 - All public documents issued by city offices or bodies need to be compatible with screen readers to comply 04:06:33.886 --> 04:06:40.930 - with the requirements of the EDA. It has made the formally simple at least seeming to me act of assembling 04:06:40.930 --> 04:06:47.710 - packets and developing documents more involved. But the city is actively pursuing this obligation. The 04:06:47.710 --> 04:06:50.014 - advent of a digital parking permit 04:06:50.210 --> 04:06:56.608 - tied to a license plate presents a similar problem. It's good because it provides a solution to a significant 04:06:56.608 --> 04:07:02.716 - problem that cities deal with namely the abuse of disabled parking placards. But it means the collection 04:07:02.716 --> 04:07:08.765 - of personal data that is the subject of tonight's ordinance regardless of the outcome of this ordinance 04:07:08.765 --> 04:07:14.466 - tonight. I believe your work is not done. Data is still going to be collected by the city however 04:07:14.466 --> 04:07:16.734 - inadvertently however unintentionally. 04:07:16.866 --> 04:07:23.544 - We're all carrying devices that generate data regardless of all the cameras that may be removed Whatever 04:07:23.544 --> 04:07:30.032 - the city's existing written policies may be currently We are at that point in the history of the city 04:07:30.032 --> 04:07:36.710 - that we must develop a data management and retention Ordinance. It must be granular. It must be specific 04:07:36.710 --> 04:07:43.198 - It must be protective of individual privacy and it must be part of city code This is beyond the scope 04:07:43.394 --> 04:07:50.638 - A transportation commission yet as you can see from the parking study. We're going to rely on such an 04:07:50.638 --> 04:07:57.954 - ordinance to make better policy So I rose to speak tonight to plant this seed, please. Don't stop with 04:07:57.954 --> 04:08:05.198 - this ordinance. Thank you No, but other commenters online anybody else here in chambers, this is your 04:08:05.198 --> 04:08:09.886 - last we have one we have a taker, okay, we'll go back to zoom and 04:08:09.986 --> 04:08:18.171 - You can unmute yourself and begin whenever you're ready. You have three minutes. Good evening. Can you 04:08:18.171 --> 04:08:26.277 - hear me? Yes, we can hear you. Good evening. Thank you. My name is Eric Ost and I wanted to, I wasn't 04:08:26.277 --> 04:08:34.542 - intending to speak per se, but I did want to harmonize with the comments that were just expressed about 04:08:34.542 --> 04:08:36.926 - developing policies regarding 04:08:37.026 --> 04:08:46.251 - data and technology. And I think that that is an effective route for involving the public, but also 04:08:46.251 --> 04:08:56.030 - having greater accountability and measurability for that accountability. So I would encourage the council 04:08:56.030 --> 04:09:06.270 - to consider the creation of a new commission such as the Bloomington Technology and Communications Commission. 04:09:06.466 --> 04:09:15.807 - Some of you will remember that petition that was circulated in 2011 by the former Telecommunications 04:09:15.807 --> 04:09:25.332 - Council. And so I just wanted to plant that seed and recommend that you consider creating a commission 04:09:25.332 --> 04:09:32.638 - that would engage on these very, very important and lasting issues. Thank you. 04:09:33.602 --> 04:09:40.302 - Thank you very much. All right. Did we have anybody here in chambers who has not spoken yet who wanted 04:09:40.302 --> 04:09:46.807 - to? Anybody online having second thoughts? No? All right. Well, thank you all very much. With that, 04:09:46.807 --> 04:09:53.507 - we end the public comments section. And we will come back here to council comments. Thank you all very 04:09:53.507 --> 04:10:00.077 - much. I know that there were a lot of nerves up at the podium. And I really admire everybody who got 04:10:00.077 --> 04:10:03.134 - up and spoke. So thank you very much for that. 04:10:03.298 --> 04:10:10.954 - All right, any council member comments before we go to a vote council member Rallo Thanks to everyone 04:10:10.954 --> 04:10:18.686 - who made comment there's so many good comments I don't want to recapitulate all of them, but I do want 04:10:18.686 --> 04:10:26.343 - to just Starting with my former colleague Steve Olin. I think he's correct that protecting privacy is 04:10:26.343 --> 04:10:32.798 - still in process and I think that a re-examination of the specifics of amendment 5 is 04:10:33.026 --> 04:10:40.944 - Warranted as we go forward and and and continue working on that that was a very difficult vote and I'm 04:10:40.944 --> 04:10:48.632 - open to being Standing to be corrected on various points of it So it's clear that these cameras can 04:10:48.632 --> 04:10:56.781 - have been used for misuse and abuse violating privacy and violating Fourth Amendment rights I'm concerned 04:10:56.781 --> 04:11:01.086 - about the mass surveillance potential in particular and 04:11:01.666 --> 04:11:08.743 - I don't find assurance that because other devices allow tracking, that ALPR should be just simply accepted. 04:11:08.743 --> 04:11:15.428 - As a matter of fact, what it says is that we ought to be examining all of the other types of tracking 04:11:15.428 --> 04:11:22.046 - that we're subjected to. I mean, I really firmly believe that documenting people around the clock is 04:11:22.046 --> 04:11:28.665 - a hallmark of a totalitarian state. We have to resist that. I think that there was Ryan, who I don't 04:11:28.665 --> 04:11:31.614 - think is here right now, but several others. 04:11:32.386 --> 04:11:40.899 - You are there, hi Ryan. You made a very accurate, and I wanted to pick this out that we need to consider 04:11:40.899 --> 04:11:49.089 - the contextuality of this, that it doesn't happen in a vacuum. There are macro trends that have been 04:11:49.089 --> 04:11:57.278 - operating for some time. Productivity has gone up three and a half times greater than wages over the 04:11:57.278 --> 04:11:58.494 - last 40 years. 04:11:59.426 --> 04:12:07.223 - All of the gains in productivity, not all of them, but most of them have gone to the top 1%. 04:12:07.223 --> 04:12:16.278 - And so this is, I think, just part of it. I also want to bring up not the X risk of AI, but the replacement 04:12:16.278 --> 04:12:24.746 - potential of AI in the workforce. This is why trillions of dollars are pouring into these companies. 04:12:24.746 --> 04:12:29.022 - Because what they hope to do is to replace people. 04:12:29.154 --> 04:12:39.580 - Replace workers and that that's a tens of trillions of dollars of labor market potential profit There's 04:12:39.580 --> 04:12:49.605 - no plans for dislocation Well, maybe there are Something to consider So and I think that to a large 04:12:49.605 --> 04:12:54.718 - extent higher government is subject to capture and 04:12:54.850 --> 04:13:01.498 - Regulatory capture and and campaign contributions and so forth. So I think it really is up to municipalities 04:13:01.498 --> 04:13:07.779 - to push back So I'm really happy that this is happening here and I think my colleagues for it. I think 04:13:07.779 --> 04:13:13.939 - that we need to Holistically look at the increased digital monitoring and the consolidation of power 04:13:13.939 --> 04:13:17.598 - in our society and it's up to us at the individual level to 04:13:17.954 --> 04:13:26.039 - to protect our rights. And so I really admire everybody who came out tonight to speak on this, 04:13:26.039 --> 04:13:34.550 - a long process. But this is clearly part of a scaffolding for a totalitarian state, it seems to me. 04:13:34.550 --> 04:13:43.401 - Round-the-clock surveillance has no place. Yes, it could make us safer. But at what cost? Enormous cost 04:13:43.401 --> 04:13:47.742 - that we may never be able to recapture our rights. 04:13:47.970 --> 04:13:54.782 - Thank you. I'll be supporting it, of course. One quick before quickly. I forgot that we also have our 04:13:54.782 --> 04:14:01.727 - rules for how long we can speak to. So if we can remember, we get five minutes for our initial comments 04:14:01.727 --> 04:14:08.740 - and then two minutes for follow-up comments. That's not a reflection of you speaking. That's just trying 04:14:08.740 --> 04:14:15.752 - to be fair to everybody. So Council Member Zulek, thank you. Thank you. I'll remind all of my colleagues 04:14:15.752 --> 04:14:17.822 - who voted for Amendment 5 that 04:14:18.178 --> 04:14:24.811 - There is a possibility for any member of the prevailing vote to motion to reconsider. If public comment 04:14:24.811 --> 04:14:31.317 - has swayed you, I would heavily support that. Anyway, y'all covered a lot of stuff. And I appreciated 04:14:31.317 --> 04:14:37.887 - some of the examples that I was going to bring up. But I still thought it would be helpful to get into 04:14:37.887 --> 04:14:44.648 - the details of all of the different ways that law enforcement has misused FLOC and ALPR technology across 04:14:44.648 --> 04:14:47.582 - the country. I'm going to start with Indiana. 04:14:47.714 --> 04:14:53.867 - In Jackson County, former Deputy Skyler Thompson was fired and criminally charged for allegedly looking 04:14:53.867 --> 04:14:59.960 - up his ex-girlfriend's plate more than 2,000 times from January through August of 2026. In Greenfield, 04:14:59.960 --> 04:15:05.936 - Sheriff's Deputy James Hennigan is facing over 400 felony charges for allegedly conducting more than 04:15:05.936 --> 04:15:10.846 - 6,000 illegal flock searches of his wife, ex-girlfriend, and other people he knew. 04:15:11.618 --> 04:15:17.389 - Kokomo officer Jeffrey Borns Jr. was charged with a felony and two misdemeanors for allegedly using 04:15:17.389 --> 04:15:23.449 - the flock system monitor, excuse me, the flock system to monitor the location of his then current spouse 04:15:23.449 --> 04:15:29.279 - in Indianapolis. As we've discussed, five different officers have been accused of misconduct related 04:15:29.279 --> 04:15:35.339 - to ALPR. Jonathan Schultz faces 26 counts, including official misconduct, fraud, and two felony stalking 04:15:35.339 --> 04:15:38.686 - charges for running nearly 1,400 unauthorized searches on 04:15:38.786 --> 04:15:45.826 - 11 different women to track them and create contact situations. Matthew Binford accused of using another 04:15:45.826 --> 04:15:52.866 - officer's credentials to run over 1,000 searches targeting his ex-wife's vehicle. Michael Rogers accused 04:15:52.866 --> 04:15:59.972 - of nearly 2,800 searches monitoring his wife and an Indianapolis firefighter he suspected she was seeing. 04:15:59.972 --> 04:16:06.744 - Cassandra Crawley accused of approximately 1,270 unauthorized searches, including vehicles connected 04:16:06.744 --> 04:16:08.286 - to a former boyfriend. 04:16:08.962 --> 04:16:15.056 - and Abigail Kramer resigned from the department and is accused of hundreds of unauthorized searches 04:16:15.056 --> 04:16:21.210 - targeting her wife's ex-wife and others. In Lafayette, officers detained an innocent man at gunpoint 04:16:21.210 --> 04:16:25.598 - after a flock camera misread his license plate. Now we'll move to Ohio. 04:16:26.370 --> 04:16:33.590 - Sharonville police off Lieutenant Walter chords 48 was charged with unauthorized use of a computer cable 04:16:33.590 --> 04:16:40.811 - or telecommunications property after he used flock 29 times between December and December 2024 and April 04:16:40.811 --> 04:16:44.318 - 2026 to track a person's whereabouts Akron officer 04:16:44.450 --> 04:16:51.685 - Devon Fields was able to continue using the Flock network while on leave after fatally shooting a 15-year-old 04:16:51.685 --> 04:16:58.263 - boy and again under suspension following sexual assault allegations. He has since been fired and is 04:16:58.263 --> 04:17:05.235 - under criminal investigation for Flock searches. Mansfield, Ohio. 9-11 dispatcher Shane Baronson resigned 04:17:05.235 --> 04:17:10.366 - after using Flock cameras to track down a woman and ask for her phone number. 04:17:11.010 --> 04:17:17.547 - Reynoldsburg officer Mark Nichols resigned after an investigation found he searched for the license 04:17:17.547 --> 04:17:24.215 - plates of a former domestic partner. Kettering, Ohio's flock system was used 184 times in January for 04:17:24.215 --> 04:17:30.752 - immigration related searches, despite a vow from the police chief that the cameras wouldn't be used 04:17:30.752 --> 04:17:37.485 - for that reason. Similarly in Shaker Heights, cameras were also used for immigration related purposes, 04:17:37.485 --> 04:17:39.838 - also contrary to the city's policy. 04:17:40.482 --> 04:17:46.930 - Officer Latasha Moore of East Cleveland allegedly used the license plate reader system to find the location 04:17:46.930 --> 04:17:53.079 - of someone with whom she was in a personal relationship. Former officer in Westchester, Ohio, Michelle 04:17:53.079 --> 04:17:59.050 - Burling, sentenced to five years of probation after allegedly tampering with flock data and images. 04:17:59.050 --> 04:18:05.438 - In Toledo, after a flock camera misread a seven as a two, officers detained an innocent driver at gunpoint 04:18:05.538 --> 04:18:12.188 - sicked their dog on him, as we discussed earlier, and jailed him for several hours. And in Columbus, 04:18:12.188 --> 04:18:18.903 - Ohio, Officer Melvin Tellis was relieved of duty after allegedly searching for the same license plate 04:18:18.903 --> 04:18:25.553 - hundreds of times between November 23 and December 24. The city of Columbus paused its flock program 04:18:25.553 --> 04:18:32.137 - after that was discovered. And if you'll notice, I exclusively used examples from Indiana and Ohio, 04:18:32.137 --> 04:18:34.046 - and I am almost out of time. 04:18:34.530 --> 04:18:40.680 - Please note that there are 48 other states, 33 of which have also had documented incidents of ALPR abuse. 04:18:40.680 --> 04:18:46.598 - The Institute for Justice has a fabulous database for those interested in researching more or reading 04:18:46.598 --> 04:18:52.689 - more about those incidents. And I know that none of us would like to believe that this could ever happen 04:18:52.689 --> 04:18:58.491 - in our community. I genuinely, truly hope that it doesn't. But the future is a long time to attempt 04:18:58.491 --> 04:19:01.566 - to predict, and it's a gamble I'm unwilling to take. 04:19:02.178 --> 04:19:09.432 - I believe that if this is a preventable breach of justice, it is our responsibility to do so. The use 04:19:09.432 --> 04:19:16.544 - of this technology need not be as inevitable as some may have us believe. Thank you. Thank you very 04:19:16.544 --> 04:19:23.727 - much. Any other council members wish to make their final comments? Council members, sorry. Thank you 04:19:23.727 --> 04:19:29.630 - so much. I want to thank all of you for not only being here, but for staying here. 04:19:31.554 --> 04:19:41.057 - I think it bears saying that regardless of how you feel about this, and I think most of us in the room 04:19:41.057 --> 04:19:50.284 - share the same feelings, that one of the things that is particularly excellent about Bloomington is 04:19:50.284 --> 04:19:59.602 - not just like our political ideologies, but it's the fact that you can come to your city government, 04:19:59.602 --> 04:20:00.894 - make demands, 04:20:01.410 --> 04:20:08.777 - we'll hear and we respond to them, right? Not always in the right way, we make lots of mistakes, but 04:20:08.777 --> 04:20:16.436 - I think that this has been and will continue to be the type of city that is shaped by its people because 04:20:16.436 --> 04:20:22.782 - we live in a democracy where our government is to be of the people, by the people, and 04:20:23.586 --> 04:20:33.224 - for the people, most importantly, right? And so I'm just so grateful for you all being here. Paulo Ferri 04:20:33.224 --> 04:20:42.678 - said, I might be mispronouncing his name. I think it's Frere. He said that to exist humanly is to name 04:20:42.678 --> 04:20:51.582 - the world and change it. In other words, people must name the world before the world can change. 04:20:52.130 --> 04:21:00.521 - So I think it's important for us here, as we're doing now in subsequent meetings, to name the world, 04:21:00.521 --> 04:21:09.078 - both as it is, but also how we want it to be. Let's first start with how it is. We're living in a time 04:21:09.078 --> 04:21:12.734 - of increasing connectivity, and even though 04:21:12.930 --> 04:21:19.853 - We talked in sort of one extreme at the beginning of our meeting about concerns around things like super 04:21:19.853 --> 04:21:26.644 - intelligence and et cetera. And now we're speaking at a sort of now issue of surveillance. The reality 04:21:26.644 --> 04:21:33.237 - is that the scope of that surveillance has increased on a day-to-day basis. There are about 300 new 04:21:33.237 --> 04:21:37.918 - artificial intelligence apps that come on the market every single day. 04:21:38.050 --> 04:21:46.534 - And in all of that, we're reliant and dependent upon this type of digital technology, right? And so 04:21:46.534 --> 04:21:55.019 - we should be very concerned, as we all have expressed, about increasing any type of encroachment on 04:21:55.019 --> 04:22:04.606 - what it really means to be a free people in a free society in that background and in that setting. Gautung said, 04:22:05.346 --> 04:22:12.494 - And I'm sorry to quote this, I can't, I hate being a politician, let me tell you. And I'm so bad at 04:22:12.494 --> 04:22:19.856 - it and I will not continue to do it for long, but I will say this, Galtung said that anything that is, 04:22:19.856 --> 04:22:27.075 - that when you look at human potential and you measure the distance between where we are and where we 04:22:27.075 --> 04:22:31.006 - can be, that that distance is what he called violence. 04:22:31.202 --> 04:22:38.033 - And we spend so much time in our society focused on the external violence, right? And even the examples 04:22:38.033 --> 04:22:44.798 - that we gave, we're giving all of these examples of manifest violence that exist because of these type 04:22:44.798 --> 04:22:51.892 - of tools, sure. But they also just exist, as our colleague pointed out, because of the underlying structure 04:22:51.892 --> 04:22:58.526 - of our society to begin with. And what if we think through that lens that will show us is that these 04:22:58.850 --> 04:23:08.092 - The backdrop is that we're living in a time of structural inequality. And these tools can hasten that 04:23:08.092 --> 04:23:16.608 - structural inequality into abuse. And that is violence. And so we have to stand against that. 04:23:16.608 --> 04:23:25.940 - Thank you. I will say two other things. Thing number one, I am grateful that first, for my colleagues, 04:23:25.940 --> 04:23:27.390 - for persistent, 04:23:27.778 --> 04:23:35.995 - and diligent work on this. I'm grateful also to the mayor and to the deputy mayor, but also to the chief 04:23:35.995 --> 04:23:44.134 - of police. I will note, I think, again, as we name things as they are, you don't have to clap for this. 04:23:44.134 --> 04:23:48.830 - But the reality is that they also acted already in some way 04:23:49.250 --> 04:23:54.669 - to start to ban and remove those contracts. But that also is in response to what you did. So to be very 04:23:54.669 --> 04:24:00.036 - clear about that. But I want to also set the tone of the fact that we are making progress in this, but 04:24:00.036 --> 04:24:01.182 - our work is not done. 04:24:01.378 --> 04:24:08.242 - Okay, and so I think that the most important thing for us to realize here is that this was never about, 04:24:08.242 --> 04:24:15.040 - you know, just flock cameras in and of themselves, even though we could list grievances for days about 04:24:15.040 --> 04:24:21.838 - just the specific company, the specific technology, et cetera, but it's about how do we live in a free 04:24:21.838 --> 04:24:27.646 - society with this type of a backdrop. I am out of time, I'm sorry. Thank you very much. 04:24:28.898 --> 04:24:35.703 - Do I have any other colleagues council colleagues want to make final comment? Is that your hand councilmember 04:24:35.703 --> 04:24:42.074 - Stossberg? I kind of hate to follow that by the way but I think I feel like I would be a little remiss 04:24:42.074 --> 04:24:47.518 - to not make a comment right now and part of that is also because I also want to kind of 04:24:48.130 --> 04:24:54.232 - comment in reaction to some of the public commenters. Because once again, I also appreciate that people 04:24:54.232 --> 04:25:00.099 - came out, and people commented, and that this is a passionate issue for them. So first of all, as I 04:25:00.099 --> 04:25:05.966 - said in the spring when we had the first resolution related to this, I really appreciate that scale 04:25:05.966 --> 04:25:11.832 - analogy, right? And at what point does the good outweigh the bad, or the bad outweigh the good? And 04:25:11.832 --> 04:25:16.350 - where does that scale tip? And for me, that scale tipped with FLOC and ALRP, 04:25:16.546 --> 04:25:23.328 - you know, months ago at this point. And that I think that there's a real difference and that's what 04:25:23.328 --> 04:25:30.653 - some of the amendments were trying to get to, a real difference between what I will call like your standard 04:25:30.653 --> 04:25:37.909 - old school surveillance camera and some of this like modern trackable system of cameras that could really, 04:25:37.909 --> 04:25:43.742 - I mean that's kind of terrifying, right? And that there's a real difference there and 04:25:43.874 --> 04:25:51.132 - trying to be like, well, in my mind, those standard old school surveillance cameras, I think that's 04:25:51.132 --> 04:25:58.753 - kind of to each their own in terms of if you want to have that kind of camera outside your shop. I think 04:25:58.753 --> 04:26:06.084 - that they can be important for security for different reasons. But that trackable stuff, that's just 04:26:06.084 --> 04:26:13.342 - bad. And one of the things that really tipped my scales on that is ICE getting a hold of that data. 04:26:13.506 --> 04:26:21.841 - us as a government agency being forced to share that kind of data with ICE, with other federal government, 04:26:21.841 --> 04:26:29.864 - with state government at this point, I just find that really, really awful to think about. And in that 04:26:29.864 --> 04:26:37.654 - situation, it's not enough to say we're gonna keep our data really secure and we're gonna make sure 04:26:37.654 --> 04:26:43.262 - nobody abuses it because at that point we could potentially be required 04:26:43.394 --> 04:26:52.206 - to share it with those entities or face some sort of legal issue from the state or the federal government. 04:26:52.206 --> 04:27:00.689 - And so I would rather just not have it at all. I would rather not have it at all. And so I'm certainly 04:27:00.689 --> 04:27:09.007 - supportive of this because of that. And I also want to appreciate what people said. My computer just 04:27:09.007 --> 04:27:10.078 - moved, and I 04:27:10.562 --> 04:27:16.767 - I think I did a keyboard shortcut. If you ever done that, like some kind of keyboard or like swipe shortcut, 04:27:16.767 --> 04:27:22.459 - and you're like, wait a minute, I didn't intend to do that at all. I think that that just happened. 04:27:22.459 --> 04:27:28.266 - But the other thing that I really wanted to bring up was what people said about definitions and about 04:27:28.266 --> 04:27:34.072 - needing to make certain things clear. And I think that there absolutely is some potential for needing 04:27:34.072 --> 04:27:37.886 - to make sure, especially that definition of what a body camera is. 04:27:38.210 --> 04:27:43.842 - perfectly clear. And there might be some other things in there, too. And I mentioned end-to-end encryption 04:27:43.842 --> 04:27:49.421 - earlier. It might be worth putting that into the ordinance to then require any kind of third-party system 04:27:49.421 --> 04:27:54.684 - that we use. Because even for that standard surveillance technology kind of stuff, it's like, well, 04:27:54.684 --> 04:28:00.000 - if I'm OK with standard surveillance technology, or I'm OK with the body camera footage, like, yeah, 04:28:00.000 --> 04:28:05.790 - I want that body camera footage to be end-to-end encrypted. And so putting that in the ordinance somewhere to 04:28:06.114 --> 04:28:11.927 - Make sure that that is required and maybe that's already something that is required in terms of what 04:28:11.927 --> 04:28:17.682 - chief decaf was saying by other higher laws that govern that kind of thing I'm not sure but that is 04:28:17.682 --> 04:28:23.438 - something that I think can be looked into further down down the road and that as my colleagues have 04:28:23.438 --> 04:28:29.251 - already said This is a good start. It doesn't mean that it's an end and I'll wrap that up. Thank you 04:28:29.251 --> 04:28:35.294 - very much Thank you very much. Are there any other council members who would like to make final comment? 04:28:37.794 --> 04:28:45.860 - All right. Well, I'll let Councilmember Piedmont Smith do her first five minutes and then you can do 04:28:45.860 --> 04:28:54.085 - your second minutes. Really appreciate all of the great comments that have been made by members of the 04:28:54.085 --> 04:29:02.231 - public tonight, especially calling putting this all in the perspective of a corrupt capitalist system 04:29:02.231 --> 04:29:07.422 - that does not care for public safety or community values at all. 04:29:08.866 --> 04:29:19.242 - I brought all these amendments, and I do apologize that some of them came kind of at the last minute. 04:29:19.242 --> 04:29:29.516 - But I brought them in order to make the ordinance more clear, and I did not intend at all to make it 04:29:29.516 --> 04:29:38.366 - less strong as far as protecting people's constitutional rights. I also want, I guess, 04:29:39.842 --> 04:29:50.673 - I did consider the situation where there is a violent crime committed and there is footage of what happened 04:29:50.673 --> 04:30:00.801 - that can help solve that crime and bring justice for the victims that I wanted law enforcement to be 04:30:00.801 --> 04:30:08.222 - able to have access to that. And maybe the answer was not in Amendment 5, 04:30:08.418 --> 04:30:17.427 - and we can revisit if there's a better way to do that. But I felt like if they have to subpoena it, 04:30:17.427 --> 04:30:26.616 - this could all take time that might lead to the person getting away with it. So anyway, I have a more 04:30:26.616 --> 04:30:32.382 - scripted list of reasons why this ordinance needs to be passed. 04:30:33.634 --> 04:30:40.694 - ALPR systems and surveillance camera systems with data that's accessible to third parties do not provide 04:30:40.694 --> 04:30:47.417 - public safety to our residents. These systems can be easily hacked. We didn't even talk about that. 04:30:47.417 --> 04:30:54.544 - They have I think I remember the public did bring this up that they were hacked and somebody just entered 04:30:54.544 --> 04:30:57.502 - and watched everybody walk down the street. 04:30:58.626 --> 04:31:04.751 - These systems create nationwide databases that have been shared by the vendors with other law enforcement 04:31:04.751 --> 04:31:10.761 - agencies, despite local contracts that supposedly preclude such sharing. I talked with a council member 04:31:10.761 --> 04:31:16.771 - in Evanston, Illinois, where they canceled the contracts, they told them to turn it off, and Flock just 04:31:16.771 --> 04:31:22.549 - turned their cameras back on. So, you know, garbage bags sometimes come in handy. Number three, the 04:31:22.549 --> 04:31:27.230 - data collected includes not just license plate numbers of questionable accuracy, 04:31:27.458 --> 04:31:34.435 - but also the make model and color of vehicles, dents and scratches, bumper stickers, and other things 04:31:34.435 --> 04:31:41.549 - that make it easy to track individuals who have not been accused of any crimes. Studies have shown that 04:31:41.549 --> 04:31:48.731 - less than 1% of cars scanned by ALPRs are connected to any crime or wrongdoing whatsoever. ALPR readings 04:31:48.731 --> 04:31:54.750 - of license plates are inaccurate, and we have discussed some of those examples tonight. 04:31:54.914 --> 04:32:02.836 - I mean, the one that was most striking to me was this family of four in Aurora, Colorado, who were just 04:32:02.836 --> 04:32:10.530 - out for the girls to get their nails done. And they come into a parking lot. And they're a family of 04:32:10.530 --> 04:32:18.452 - color. And the cops violently pulled them out of their vehicles, bashed them face down onto the parking 04:32:18.452 --> 04:32:24.318 - lot, handcuffed them, all because their minivan had a plate that wasn't even 04:32:24.546 --> 04:32:31.944 - the same as what was in the FLOC database, which was from a totally different state and was for a motorcycle. 04:32:31.944 --> 04:32:39.208 - This shit happens all the time. And ALPR databases have been accessed by law enforcement personnel hundreds 04:32:39.208 --> 04:32:45.598 - of times for unauthorized reasons, as my colleague pointed out. Number seven, the use of ALPRs 04:32:45.598 --> 04:32:52.660 - and surveillance camera systems in gender fear, stifle-free movement, stifle-free speech among immigrant 04:32:52.660 --> 04:32:53.534 - communities, 04:32:53.634 --> 04:33:01.845 - black and brown populations, women seeking reproductive health care, and residents lawfully protesting 04:33:01.845 --> 04:33:09.975 - against government policies. So these are all reasons why I worked my ass off for this ordinance, and 04:33:09.975 --> 04:33:18.027 - I hope that it passes tonight. Thank you. All right. And Council Member Zulek, you have two minutes. 04:33:18.027 --> 04:33:21.534 - Thank you. I'm not going to take all of it. 04:33:21.762 --> 04:33:28.976 - wanted to explain what a motion to reconsider is. And that would be if we were to take another vote 04:33:28.976 --> 04:33:36.407 - on Amendment 5 over again, because Councilmember Asari and I voted no the first time. We cannot, under 04:33:36.407 --> 04:33:43.693 - Robert's rules, make a motion to reconsider. But the rest of my colleagues can. And I just wanted to 04:33:43.693 --> 04:33:48.094 - remind them that they could. Thank you. Thank you very much. 04:33:50.114 --> 04:33:58.307 - I always love your optimism. Any other? And I will be quiet for the rest of the night. OK. No, not further. 04:33:58.307 --> 04:34:06.349 - You better not. I'm handing this back. OK. The last thing I just wanted to end on to wrap my full thought 04:34:06.349 --> 04:34:14.314 - up is that and to append onto the beautiful words that Council Member Piemont-Smith said, Council Member 04:34:14.314 --> 04:34:18.942 - Stosberg said, Council Member Zulek, Council Member Rarallo, 04:34:19.074 --> 04:34:25.173 - First, also thank you Council Member Piedmont-Smith. Not only, I mean, we've done a lot of work in drafting, 04:34:25.173 --> 04:34:30.825 - redrafting, et cetera, but I would like to be very clear that Council Member Piedmont-Smith has done 04:34:30.825 --> 04:34:34.238 - all of the legwork here, and we're just very, very grateful. 04:34:34.402 --> 04:34:43.929 - for all the organizing and the energy as well behind it. So I think just one last piece, just to wrap 04:34:43.929 --> 04:34:50.654 - this up, we really need to continue, but there's an element, two of us, 04:34:50.786 --> 04:34:56.109 - legislating ourselves, right? Because surveillance, as we know, as we've seen, has also been argued, 04:34:56.109 --> 04:35:01.485 - can help us respond to violence, sure, can help us respond and find those in danger, sure, but it can 04:35:01.485 --> 04:35:07.230 - also create structures of power that fundamentally alter the relationship between the citizen and the state. 04:35:07.650 --> 04:35:14.417 - And so a safe society must protect people from all forms of violence. And a free society must also protect 04:35:14.417 --> 04:35:20.868 - people from the unchecked power of the very institutions that are established to protect them. I just 04:35:20.868 --> 04:35:27.445 - wanted to make sure that I said that, because I think that it's critical that we're also thinking about 04:35:27.445 --> 04:35:34.022 - ourselves here in this legislation. So I'm done. All right. Thank you very much. Any two-minute takers? 04:35:34.022 --> 04:35:34.718 - All right. 04:35:35.010 --> 04:35:40.795 - Take my few minutes now as the last one to speak. I'm gonna be super quick because it's very late and 04:35:40.795 --> 04:35:46.749 - I really do need a bathroom break. But I just wanted to thank the sponsors and the co-sponsors for this, 04:35:46.749 --> 04:35:52.647 - for working on this. I know you guys have worked on this forever and this is huge. I know how much work 04:35:52.647 --> 04:35:58.488 - went into it and it is just such a no-brainer to support. So thank you very much. I'm really impressed 04:35:58.488 --> 04:36:04.670 - with all the work too and the heart that you guys put into it. And thank you all also for being here because 04:36:04.770 --> 04:36:11.213 - As it's been said before none of this can really happen without the support of the public. And I mean 04:36:11.213 --> 04:36:17.783 - this is all a group effort. So thank you guys very much. I don't have anything else to say because it's 04:36:17.783 --> 04:36:24.479 - all been said and I don't want to follow any of those other eloquent comments. So with that. Clerk Bolton 04:36:24.479 --> 04:36:29.470 - would you please call the roll on ordinance 20 26 dash 22. Councilmember Ruff. 04:36:34.370 --> 04:36:46.654 - Piedmont-Smith? Yes. Zulek? Yes. Asari? Yes. Daly? Yes. Rallo? Yes. Thank you. Passes. Hooray. 04:37:03.810 --> 04:37:12.135 - You all signed, when you signed in, there was little words on the back that said you will also stay 04:37:12.135 --> 04:37:20.710 - to comment on the budget. So thank you so much for agreeing to do that. OK. I think there was a motion 04:37:20.710 --> 04:37:27.870 - to take a brief recess. No? You got to go? OK, then keep going. I move that approval. 04:37:28.386 --> 04:37:37.984 - Ordinance 2026-02 be introduced and read by the clerk by title and synopsis only There's a motion in 04:37:37.984 --> 04:37:47.677 - a second all those in favor say aye Thank you all thank you. Thank you. We appreciate you all goodbye 04:37:47.677 --> 04:37:56.990 - It's after 1030 do we need to call the roll on that correct? Will the clerk please call the roll? 04:37:57.250 --> 04:38:06.252 - on the vote on the vote for yes there's a vote and there's a second can you please call the roll on 04:38:06.252 --> 04:38:15.345 - reading twenty twenty six oh two yes but just to be clear I heard the motion from daily who made the 04:38:15.345 --> 04:38:24.978 - second please thank you councilmember Zoellick and councilmember Stossberg yes Piedmont Smith yes Zoellick 04:38:24.978 --> 04:38:26.238 - yes Asari yes 04:38:26.530 --> 04:38:34.538 - Daley. Yes. Rallo. Yes. And rough. Yes. Thank you very much. Clerk will you please read appropriation 04:38:34.538 --> 04:38:42.389 - ordinance 20 26 0 2 an ordinance for appropriations and tax rates establishing the 20 27 civil city 04:38:42.389 --> 04:38:50.476 - budget for the city of Bloomington. The synopsis is as follows an appropriation ordinance adopting the 04:38:50.476 --> 04:38:55.422 - city's annual budget and establishing the necessary tax rates. 04:38:55.522 --> 04:39:04.020 - tax levies and appropriations for the city's obligations for the fiscal year ending December 31st 2027 04:39:04.020 --> 04:39:12.847 - I Move that ordinance appropriation ordinance 2026-02 be adopted second Thank you very much Would somebody 04:39:12.847 --> 04:39:21.262 - at this late hour like to say some very quick few words about our tax levies I think we've had plenty 04:39:21.262 --> 04:39:25.470 - of time to talk about it, but as a deputy mayor we 04:39:28.130 --> 04:39:34.638 - I think that our controller was online earlier as many of you know He has federal jury duty in Indianapolis 04:39:34.638 --> 04:39:40.845 - that he was in all day today and will be in tomorrow So I'm not sure if he's still there So all of the 04:39:40.845 --> 04:39:47.052 - adjustments and amendments have been incorporated a new form has been generated and we appreciate your 04:39:47.052 --> 04:39:53.319 - support and Is and does this constitute a hearing do we need to say any of that type? Okay, good. We're 04:39:53.319 --> 04:39:53.982 - good to go 04:39:54.114 --> 04:40:03.146 - Fantastic. All right. Thank you so much any questions comments on this Councilmember Stossberg I have 04:40:03.146 --> 04:40:12.620 - two comments or two questions. And so I'm hoping that Deputy mayor napkin maybe address them so I compared 04:40:12.620 --> 04:40:21.918 - the like the Actual sheets of number controller McCracken is online. Oh excellent Controller McKim Hello 04:40:22.562 --> 04:40:31.476 - Yes, I think there's a question to you sir. Go ahead So so I have two about the because I was parent 04:40:31.476 --> 04:40:40.566 - comparing the numbers to see what had changed and so I have two questions related to that one is Under 04:40:40.566 --> 04:40:43.390 - the self insurance that changed 04:40:43.650 --> 04:40:50.813 - by a couple hundred thousand dollars. Does that have to do with like the, I think, 9% estimate versus 04:40:50.813 --> 04:40:57.906 - the reality of what it actually was? Is that why that was different? Because I don't think that that 04:40:57.906 --> 04:41:05.069 - was an amendment that we did. No, that was the elimination of the telemetry devices for the vehicles. 04:41:05.069 --> 04:41:12.161 - Okay, thank you. And then the other one that was different that I couldn't totally track back to was 04:41:12.161 --> 04:41:13.566 - the one out of LIT. 04:41:13.826 --> 04:41:20.481 - Which there was a hundred and forty three thousand eight hundred and ninety four dollars that so I That 04:41:20.481 --> 04:41:26.880 - was after the sanitation subsidy went away. So is that was at the TDM manager position? Is that all 04:41:26.880 --> 04:41:33.407 - that was the TDM manager position with all of the benefits lines as well? Okay, great. Thanks. That's 04:41:33.407 --> 04:41:38.078 - what I thought. I just wanted to make sure thank you Any other questions 04:41:40.226 --> 04:41:49.579 - Okay. We'll go to public comment at this point. Um, on appropriation ordinance, 20, 20, 602. 04:41:49.579 --> 04:41:59.637 - Anyone online? Mr. Keough. No, no, no. Okay. No. All right. They're going to be going, going again. 04:41:59.637 --> 04:42:01.246 - Anybody online? 04:42:02.658 --> 04:42:11.298 - All right. Well, all right then back to Council any comments before we take and now that comes with 04:42:11.298 --> 04:42:20.283 - a lose back any comments before we Take the vote on the budget counselor Piedmont Smith Controller Jeff 04:42:20.283 --> 04:42:29.096 - McKim for his hard work on the budget and His willingness to engage with the Council Fiscal Committee 04:42:29.096 --> 04:42:30.910 - and really elucidate 04:42:31.010 --> 04:42:43.613 - elucidate some of the processes and internal budget calculations for council. Thank you so much. Any 04:42:43.613 --> 04:42:56.591 - other comments. All right. Will the clerk please call the roll. Yes. Councilmember Piedmont Smith. Yes. 04:42:56.591 --> 04:43:00.958 - Zulek. Yes. Sorry. No. Daily. Yes. 04:43:01.602 --> 04:43:10.879 - Rallo. Yes. Ruff. Yes. Stasberg. Yes. Thank you. Thank you very much. That passes. How many of us are 04:43:10.879 --> 04:43:20.065 - here. Six one. Thank you so much. All right. What is next ordinance 20 26 0 4 be introduced and read 04:43:20.065 --> 04:43:29.342 - by the clerk by title and synopsis only this motion in a second. Will the clerk please call the roll. 04:43:33.282 --> 04:43:44.971 - Yes. Sorry. Yes. Daily. Yes. Rollo. Yes. Ruff. Yes. Stasberg. Yes. He wants me. Yes. Thank you very 04:43:44.971 --> 04:43:53.854 - much. Will the clerk please read Appropriation ordinance 20 26 dash 0 4 and 04:43:54.338 --> 04:44:02.044 - An ordinance adopting a budget for the operations maintenance debt service and capital improvements 04:44:02.044 --> 04:44:09.981 - for the water and wastewater utility departments of the city of Bloomington, Indiana for the year 2027 04:44:09.981 --> 04:44:17.918 - synopsis as follows this appropriation ordinance approved by the utility service board in July of 2026 04:44:17.918 --> 04:44:23.774 - sets the water and wastewater budgets for 2027 Ordinance 2026-04 be adopted 04:44:23.906 --> 04:44:35.639 - Second. Do we at this time have to call the roll on that as well. Yes. No. OK. Fine. All right. Director 04:44:35.639 --> 04:44:47.036 - Ziegler is online. Hello from the other side. Hi. Yes. Catherine Zager utilities director. And I just 04:44:47.036 --> 04:44:53.182 - wanted to follow up on council member Piedmont Smith's 04:44:53.410 --> 04:45:03.967 - question about depreciation and the depreciation fund. So I had mentioned that depreciation reflects 04:45:03.967 --> 04:45:14.838 - essentially the value of assets over time. But what that is for us as we use accrual accounting is that 04:45:14.838 --> 04:45:22.782 - when we buy and pay for an asset, so for example, you have a $100,000 truck 04:45:23.426 --> 04:45:31.637 - that truck has a useful life of 10 years we would expense that 10k per year over 10 years that creates 04:45:31.637 --> 04:45:39.769 - the depreciation fund and that's true of many many of our assets that we buy which is why that number 04:45:39.769 --> 04:45:48.060 - is so large that's also why our enr goes to the depreciation fund so extensions and replacements that's 04:45:48.060 --> 04:45:52.126 - kind of our cash fund for things like projects for 04:45:52.450 --> 04:45:59.559 - our capital improvements, and then just generally maintaining the capacity that we need at the utility. 04:45:59.559 --> 04:46:06.395 - So hopefully that is a better explanation for our depreciation fund and helps answer your question. 04:46:06.395 --> 04:46:13.504 - Happy to answer any other questions. Thank you very much. Does anybody have any other further questions 04:46:13.504 --> 04:46:20.750 - for Director Ziegler? Seeing none, we'll now go to public comment. Is there anyone wishing to give public 04:46:20.750 --> 04:46:21.502 - comment on 04:46:22.594 --> 04:46:33.809 - this ordinance with which has a number. Yeah I'm sorry. Anyone in chambers. Anyone online. Back to chambers 04:46:33.809 --> 04:46:44.505 - council members. Any final comments. Seeing none will the clerk please call the roll. Council members. 04:46:44.505 --> 04:46:52.190 - That can't be right. Okay. Council members sorry. Yes. Daily. Yes. Rollo. 04:46:52.482 --> 04:47:01.951 - Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you. That motion passes. Yay. We did all the budget things. Okay. 04:47:01.951 --> 04:47:11.420 - Fantastic. Thank you very much. All right. Any other motions. I move that ordinance twenty twenty six 04:47:11.420 --> 04:47:18.846 - dash twenty one be introduced and read by the clerk by title and synopsis only. 04:47:20.258 --> 04:47:35.032 - Second motion and a second of the clerk because the council member daily. Yes. Rallo. Yes. Ruff. Stasberg. 04:47:35.032 --> 04:47:48.702 - Yes. Piedmont Smith. Yes. Zulek. Yes. Sorry. Yes. OK. Will you please read kindly honorable clerk. 04:47:53.378 --> 04:47:59.447 - Ordinance 2026-21, updating title two, to provide better apportionment of representation on 04:47:59.447 --> 04:48:06.176 - the transportation commission and environmental and environment commission council sponsor Stossberg. 04:48:06.176 --> 04:48:12.905 - The synopsis is as follows. This ordinance sponsored by council member Stossberg makes changes to the 04:48:12.905 --> 04:48:19.700 - membership of the transportation commission by creating a dedicated seat for an employee of the Monroe 04:48:19.700 --> 04:48:23.262 - County Community School Corporation and consequently, 04:48:23.554 --> 04:48:31.054 - reconfiguring the remaining community member seats Additionally the ordinance reduces the size of the 04:48:31.054 --> 04:48:38.480 - environmental commission to eliminate seats with long-standing vacancies It's 2026 dash 21 be it did 04:48:38.480 --> 04:48:46.126 - hooray councilmember Stasberg any final words Yeah, I just have a couple first of all, I think it would 04:48:46.126 --> 04:48:52.670 - be best to start with the amendment. So I'd like to move amendment one Second, thank you 04:48:52.866 --> 04:49:01.721 - So this whole amendment one changes the original ordinance with regard to the size of the Environmental 04:49:01.721 --> 04:49:10.236 - Commission originally it reduced it to nine members amendment one reduces it to 11 which eliminates 04:49:10.236 --> 04:49:19.262 - one of the two seats that have been vacant since 2024 and I did that for a couple reasons first off I was 04:49:19.650 --> 04:49:25.207 - Never strongly attached to that reduction in the beginning. It was something that came out of the CCP 04:49:25.207 --> 04:49:31.035 - meeting And kind of got a pendant on to this because I was already doing something with the Transportation 04:49:31.035 --> 04:49:36.538 - Commission that I was more attached to But also when I went to the EC meeting there were a couple of 04:49:36.538 --> 04:49:42.040 - questions that kind of got brought up by them that made me go like well like Maybe we should do this 04:49:42.040 --> 04:49:47.487 - and maybe we shouldn't and what's kind of a compromise right now with that so the two questions and 04:49:47.487 --> 04:49:48.958 - I want to say them because 04:49:49.570 --> 04:49:55.354 - I think that it matters for all boards and commissions So the first question is who should decide how 04:49:55.354 --> 04:50:01.081 - many members it takes for a commission to be? Effectual and how do we decide whether a commission is 04:50:01.081 --> 04:50:06.752 - effectual and what it takes for that commission to be? Effectual which I think it's just sort of an 04:50:06.752 --> 04:50:11.742 - interesting philosophical question that we absolutely do not have to talk about tonight 04:50:12.194 --> 04:50:17.843 - And then the second question is a question of demand versus supply. Do we simply want bodies serving 04:50:17.843 --> 04:50:23.604 - on our boards and commissions or do we want highly qualified and engaged members serving? Because like 04:50:23.604 --> 04:50:29.253 - is it really about the number or is it really about the type of people who are serving and we really 04:50:29.253 --> 04:50:34.902 - need them to be engaged? So those were just some philosophical questions that led me to go like well 04:50:34.902 --> 04:50:41.054 - maybe instead of reducing this by three we can reduce it by one and that will appease everybody a little bit. 04:50:41.282 --> 04:50:53.135 - Happy to take questions. Excellent. Any questions All right clerk, oh public comment anyone want to 04:50:53.135 --> 04:51:04.988 - publicly comment on amendment one, please Hi, I'm Carl Geiser I won't take up a lot of time. I just 04:51:04.988 --> 04:51:09.374 - wanted to State my appreciation that 04:51:09.922 --> 04:51:16.771 - you know councilmember sasper took her time out of her day to to come and meet with the EC and ask questions 04:51:16.771 --> 04:51:23.180 - of us and I also wanted to Express my appreciations the rest of you who you know, we've had email cut 04:51:23.180 --> 04:51:29.463 - correspondence with on this issue So that's all I wanted to say. Thanks Thank you so much. Is there 04:51:29.463 --> 04:51:35.935 - anybody else who'd like to make public comment anyone online, please one person online We welcome your 04:51:35.935 --> 04:51:37.694 - public comment at this time 04:51:38.850 --> 04:51:45.899 - Hello, my name is Dr. Tara Dunderdale, and I'm speaking to you as a resident of District 3. I think 04:51:45.899 --> 04:51:53.370 - that the EC should not see a reduction in seats. I think that the challenges that any boarding commission 04:51:53.370 --> 04:52:00.771 - have faced regarding quorum make it difficult to fill seats because people do not want to sit on a board 04:52:00.771 --> 04:52:07.326 - that they cannot do any work for. Recent changes to the EC's bylaws means that they are more 04:52:07.650 --> 04:52:14.823 - uh, capacitated to do their work and their work is critical to our city. They've provided a 04:52:14.823 --> 04:52:22.620 - lot of programming, a lot of influence on city code and we are in a climate crisis and reducing the 04:52:22.620 --> 04:52:30.495 - size of opportunity for experts in the city to advise council. Um, and advise the city government is 04:52:30.495 --> 04:52:37.278 - I think irresponsible. Thank you for your time. Thank you so much. Any other comments? 04:52:39.042 --> 04:52:47.536 - Anyone else online. OK. Coming back and you both win a prize for being here the whole time. You know 04:52:47.536 --> 04:52:56.199 - something great. I understand there's a party at the bishop. OK. So coming back coming back to council 04:52:56.199 --> 04:53:01.918 - council member Rallo. Yeah I served on the EC once upon a time for. 04:53:02.306 --> 04:53:10.956 - About eight years and Councilmember Piedmont Smith did too and we were concerned about reducing it to 04:53:10.956 --> 04:53:19.436 - nine and I really appreciate Councilmember Stosberg considering our our our sentiments and Amending 04:53:19.436 --> 04:53:28.340 - this to 11. I think that that works. So I'll be supporting this. Thank you. Councilmember Stosberg would 04:53:28.340 --> 04:53:31.902 - you like to address the comment at all or 04:53:32.930 --> 04:53:39.785 - Well, first of all, this concept of reducing EC in the beginning came from staff and came from the Novak 04:53:39.785 --> 04:53:46.510 - report. It didn't have anything to do with quorum in the end because that quorum definition got worked 04:53:46.510 --> 04:53:53.104 - out like, well, this was all being dealt with because government is slow and things take a long time 04:53:53.104 --> 04:53:53.822 - sometimes. 04:53:54.370 --> 04:54:00.998 - And one of the things was I talked with staff and the staff liaisons in the planning and transportation 04:54:00.998 --> 04:54:07.562 - department and and that's kind of some of those questions that I mentioned at the beginning about like 04:54:07.562 --> 04:54:14.508 - the role of EC and or the role of commissions in general and how what they're supposed to do to be Effectual 04:54:14.508 --> 04:54:17.758 - and what does that really mean? and Planning staff 04:54:18.466 --> 04:54:24.869 - Feel quite confident that easy can be an effective body with nine members So that they certainly feel 04:54:24.869 --> 04:54:31.460 - like it can be an effective body with the 11 members as well So I guess that that that is the addressing 04:54:31.460 --> 04:54:37.989 - and I also want to highlight that we also have a second boarding board called the oh Geez, it's because 04:54:37.989 --> 04:54:41.630 - or let's see somebody help me with that acronym right now 04:54:42.050 --> 04:54:48.301 - Commission on the Bloomington Commission on sustainability and resilience. Thank you. Councilmember 04:54:48.301 --> 04:54:54.302 - Piedmont Smith. And so there is there are actually two different boards and commissions working 04:54:54.302 --> 04:55:00.616 - on environmental and climate related stuff in Bloomington as well as a department that has one staff 04:55:00.616 --> 04:55:06.993 - member full time on it and then a couple two staff members full time on it. So that is something that 04:55:06.993 --> 04:55:09.118 - still gets maintained. Thank you. 04:55:10.594 --> 04:55:20.146 - Thank you so much. Any other council member comments. All right. Well the clerk please call the roll 04:55:20.146 --> 04:55:30.076 - on the amendment one. Yes. Ruff. Yes. Stasberg. Yes. Piedmont Smith. Yes. Zulek. Yes. Sorry. Yes. Daily. 04:55:30.076 --> 04:55:38.398 - Yes. Fantastic. That brings us to the thing as amended. Are there any other amendments. 04:55:39.074 --> 04:55:45.687 - OK. Any other things that people would like to say or add to this. Yes. I just I just want to add one 04:55:45.687 --> 04:55:52.170 - of the things that got asked at the first reading of this was just about the commissions themselves 04:55:52.170 --> 04:55:56.254 - and what they thought of it. And so I talked about the EC but. 04:55:56.386 --> 04:56:01.964 - When I was at the transportation commission last time, they actually did make an official vote 04:56:01.964 --> 04:56:07.835 - of recommendation to adopt the resolution as it had been presented to them, which was technically a 04:56:07.835 --> 04:56:11.358 - draft. And I changed it in a couple of ways to reflect what 04:56:11.682 --> 04:56:18.356 - the feedback that I got from their membership. So I just wanted to make sure that that was said out 04:56:18.356 --> 04:56:25.097 - loud to my colleagues, because I can't remember which one of you was that expressed a desire to know 04:56:25.097 --> 04:56:31.638 - what it was the commissions had thought about it. So thank you. Thank you so much. OK. With that, 04:56:31.638 --> 04:56:38.579 - Mike Clark. Oh, no. Public comment. Anyone like to give a public comment on the whole thing as amended? 04:56:38.579 --> 04:56:41.182 - Go ahead, tall man. OK. Anyone online? 04:56:42.306 --> 04:56:50.230 - Yes, please yeah, this is now everything Good evening, my name is Jeff Henderson and I serve as the 04:56:50.230 --> 04:56:58.946 - assistant superintendent of human resources and operations for the Monroe County Community School Corporation 04:56:58.946 --> 04:57:06.078 - which specifically includes executive oversight of our transportation department which is 04:57:06.242 --> 04:57:13.092 - operates 80 bus routes per day that travel over 7500 miles in in Bloomington in Monroe County Which 04:57:13.092 --> 04:57:19.942 - doesn't include field trips extracurricular activities those kinds of things so significant mileage 04:57:19.942 --> 04:57:26.792 - traveled on our public transportation And I'm here this evening on behalf of dr. Winston the MCC SC 04:57:26.792 --> 04:57:28.094 - superintendent and 04:57:28.354 --> 04:57:33.253 - I'm here this evening to offer our support for the proposed update to title to to include an appointee 04:57:33.253 --> 04:57:38.153 - from the Monroe County Community School Corporation to serve on the Transportation Committee We highly 04:57:38.153 --> 04:57:43.100 - value our per part our partnership with the city and share in the mission of ensuring safe and reliable 04:57:43.100 --> 04:57:47.904 - Transportation services for the students and families that we serve and the residents of Bloomington 04:57:47.904 --> 04:57:51.614 - So we appreciate the consideration of these changes by the council. Thank you 04:57:52.642 --> 04:57:59.529 - Thank you so much, and you also get the prize for being here, even getting here early. So thank you 04:57:59.529 --> 04:58:06.691 - very much. And if you could share that with Dr. Winston. Yes, yes, happily, happily, happily. The least 04:58:06.691 --> 04:58:12.958 - we can do. OK, any other public comments? All right, coming back to council, final chance. 04:58:14.146 --> 04:58:21.144 - Council members thus Berg I have to give a huge thank you to mr. Henderson over there for for staying 04:58:21.144 --> 04:58:28.006 - through this whole meeting to give that comment and also for expression report support for and also 04:58:28.006 --> 04:58:30.750 - actually a thank you to dr. Winston who 04:58:31.106 --> 04:58:36.903 - We went back and forth a little bit on language related to this and she has been very supportive and 04:58:36.903 --> 04:58:42.700 - in fact was even supportive of the fact that I gave her an incorrect date of the second reading time 04:58:42.700 --> 04:58:48.496 - and so she came last week for budgets for a little while and that's why she was here. So I just want 04:58:48.496 --> 04:58:50.046 - to publicly call them out. 04:58:50.114 --> 04:58:57.464 - Being supportive of this and and it is it was really important to me as a parent as a supporter of public 04:58:57.464 --> 04:59:04.536 - schools To have some representation of MCC SC on the Transportation Commission Because really as part 04:59:04.536 --> 04:59:11.678 - of the Transportation Commission, it should be about safety right our safe transportation networks and 04:59:12.194 --> 04:59:19.878 - They carry so many of our kids and not even that but they just have tons of staff Tons of parents going 04:59:19.878 --> 04:59:27.710 - back and forth and I think it's really key to involve them in our transportation systems not only so that 04:59:28.066 --> 04:59:34.657 - We as the city can make sure that we're being cognizant of what they need as a school system, but also 04:59:34.657 --> 04:59:41.120 - so that they as transportation provider for so many of our residents can be cognizant of what we are 04:59:41.120 --> 04:59:47.775 - doing for safety and about some of the key pieces of infrastructure changes and why those things matter 04:59:47.775 --> 04:59:53.790 - and what the importance is. And so I think it can be a really great sharing and collaboration 04:59:53.790 --> 04:59:56.222 - and understanding of needs across our 04:59:56.386 --> 05:00:07.308 - to like jurisdictions that overlap. So thank you. Excellent. With that honorable clerk. Let's do that 05:00:07.308 --> 05:00:18.016 - thing. Call the roll please. I thought you wanted me to sing. OK. Councilmember Ruff Stasberg. Yes. 05:00:18.016 --> 05:00:25.726 - Piedmont Smith. Yes. Zulek. Yes. Sorry. Yes. Daily. Yes. And Rala. Yes. 05:00:27.938 --> 05:00:37.191 - Thank you very much. Are there any other. I move that resolution twenty twenty six dash twenty two be 05:00:37.191 --> 05:00:46.354 - introduced and read by the clerk by title and synopsis only second. There's a second. Will the clerk 05:00:46.354 --> 05:00:55.517 - please call the roll. Council member Stasberg. Yes. Piedmont Smith. Yes. Zulek. Yes. I'm sorry. Yes. 05:00:55.517 --> 05:00:57.694 - Daily. Yes. Rollo. Yes. 05:00:58.050 --> 05:01:20.798 - Yes. Hey clerk drop that beat go for it. You get to read that if you let's go. Let me catch up. Lost it. 05:01:21.346 --> 05:01:28.371 - Here we go. Sorry. Resolution 2026 dash 22 to approve an update to the city of Bloomington Americans 05:01:28.371 --> 05:01:35.466 - with Disabilities Act transition plan. Council sponsors daily synopsis is as follows. This resolution 05:01:35.466 --> 05:01:43.326 - approves the city of Bloomington's 2026 Americans with Disabilities Act transition plan as an advisory document. 05:01:43.618 --> 05:01:52.485 - The plan identifies the city's ongoing efforts to improve accessibility and address barriers to participation 05:01:52.485 --> 05:02:00.547 - in city programs, services, activities, facilities and public rights of way. Thank you so much. Any 05:02:00.547 --> 05:02:08.608 - other motions? I move that resolution 2026-22 be adopted. Thank you very much. Um, Mr. Sherman's to 05:02:08.608 --> 05:02:10.462 - you, sir, you can give 05:02:10.562 --> 05:02:18.102 - The longest or the shortest presentation you've ever given? Two hours past my bedtime. All right. 05:02:18.102 --> 05:02:25.950 - There we go. So real briefly as I can make it, the Council for Community Accessibility is part of the 05:02:25.950 --> 05:02:33.643 - group that is promoting the interests of people with disabilities. And we share the perspectives of 05:02:33.643 --> 05:02:40.414 - people with disabilities with other departments who ask for our advice all of the time. 05:02:41.250 --> 05:02:47.953 - So the transition plan requirements are essentially that Local governments have to have one There is 05:02:47.953 --> 05:02:54.590 - no set time for when they're supposed to come out But we have agreed kind of behind the scenes that 05:02:54.590 --> 05:03:01.757 - we would try to produce one every couple years and the plans essentially just need to document and evaluate 05:03:01.757 --> 05:03:08.062 - whether cities are ensuring that their programs are accessible to people with disabilities and 05:03:08.578 --> 05:03:16.066 - Some quick highlights for CCA We continue to host all sorts of community programs and training for disability 05:03:16.066 --> 05:03:22.941 - visibility and education and we've Expanded a program that's really popular with the public which is 05:03:22.941 --> 05:03:29.748 - the snow buddies program to help people who are seniors or disabled Getting their snow removed from 05:03:29.748 --> 05:03:35.806 - their sidewalks a city requirement and for digital accessibility We have a working group 05:03:36.034 --> 05:03:43.677 - of which I'm part of that have implemented new processes to meet all the federal digital accessibility 05:03:43.677 --> 05:03:51.468 - guidelines that are coming up in the next year. And the city is already in compliance with many of these 05:03:51.468 --> 05:03:55.326 - requirements and meets the standards in WCHE 2.288. 05:03:55.522 --> 05:04:03.394 - City owned buildings lots of parks and recs are have updated some of their things to ensure that they're 05:04:03.394 --> 05:04:10.366 - more accessible like push button doors and there's been a lot of ADA compliant remodels for. 05:04:10.466 --> 05:04:17.607 - various fire stations as well. And parks and trails have done a lot of work. If you haven't checked 05:04:17.607 --> 05:04:24.820 - it out yet, look at the tactile map installed at Switchyard Park. It's amazing. And also more better 05:04:24.820 --> 05:04:30.462 - parking at Mills Pool, picnic shelters, raised beds at Butler Park, etc., etc. 05:04:30.562 --> 05:04:39.312 - For right-of-way highlights we have in 2020 5 we had 21,717 sidewalk trip hazards repaired and in 2025 05:04:39.312 --> 05:04:48.402 - 273 a da curb Rams curb ramps were installed reaching over 2000 since 2016 for Bloomington transit between 05:04:48.402 --> 05:04:57.662 - 23 and 2025 the percent of bus stops with excellent accessibility ratings increased from 22 percent to 38 or 05:04:57.858 --> 05:05:05.407 - We are still encouraging them to work harder to make more of them And as you know, it's it's clear that 05:05:05.407 --> 05:05:12.811 - there's still work to be done with twelve percent of the box bus stops remain fully inaccessible With 05:05:12.811 --> 05:05:20.214 - that I would take any questions that you have Colleagues questions Okay councilman Stossberg and then 05:05:20.214 --> 05:05:22.174 - I have a question go ahead 05:05:23.106 --> 05:05:30.200 - And I don't mean to like belabor our meeting, but I really appreciate mr. Chalmers that you stayed all 05:05:30.200 --> 05:05:37.294 - the way till now and I think that it's only right that I should ask my questions at this point because 05:05:37.294 --> 05:05:44.388 - this is also an important topic and it shouldn't be the important shouldn't be diminished just because 05:05:44.388 --> 05:05:49.278 - we're talking about it at 1140 at night, so My first question is about 05:05:50.210 --> 05:05:56.874 - And actually, this applies to something else that happened earlier this evening. It is about just the 05:05:56.874 --> 05:06:03.537 - word disability, you can say, and what disabilities count as protected that we're trying to make sure 05:06:03.537 --> 05:06:10.658 - that we have services for. There was a person who commented a couple of times and mentioned autism spectrum. 05:06:10.658 --> 05:06:17.191 - And that was actually related to another constituent who reached out to me who felt that because of 05:06:17.191 --> 05:06:19.870 - their autism spectrum disorder that they 05:06:20.130 --> 05:06:29.383 - did not receive some services that they would have expected to receive. So does ASD count in terms of 05:06:29.383 --> 05:06:38.727 - some of these protections and accessibility requirements and that kind of thing that we're working on? 05:06:38.727 --> 05:06:41.630 - It's a hard question to answer. 05:06:42.306 --> 05:06:50.220 - Yes, it's considered in lots of, the ADA itself doesn't take it into account as much in terms of certain 05:06:50.220 --> 05:06:57.758 - things, and much of it's focused on physical accessibility, but we continue to strive for that, and 05:06:57.758 --> 05:07:05.748 - we try to include people with those kind of disabilities in the work that we do. Does that sort of answer 05:07:05.748 --> 05:07:10.270 - the question? Yeah, I think that that answers the question. 05:07:11.106 --> 05:07:19.205 - I got the feeling that most of it, and it feels like most of the time when the CCA advocates for things, 05:07:19.205 --> 05:07:27.073 - it is about physical disability. But I just wasn't sure in terms of the actual technical language and 05:07:27.073 --> 05:07:34.941 - definitions, whether mental disability is also counted even without physical. Yeah, we include people 05:07:34.941 --> 05:07:36.638 - with all disabilities 05:07:36.738 --> 05:07:42.850 - But there's very few deaf people, for example. There are some people with autism, and there are lots 05:07:42.850 --> 05:07:49.203 - of people with developmental disabilities. We work strongly with Stone Belt and DSI, other organizations 05:07:49.203 --> 05:07:55.315 - to try to promote that. And we have disability awareness stuff that looks at those kind of issues as 05:07:55.315 --> 05:08:01.366 - well. But again, the primary focus a lot of times are physical accessibility issues. OK, thank you. 05:08:01.366 --> 05:08:05.662 - Should I ask my other questions too while we're here? Yeah, go for it. 05:08:06.562 --> 05:08:13.232 - So Oh One of the things that I wanted to call out and just be like cake and maybe we fix that next year 05:08:13.232 --> 05:08:19.773 - under the public right-of-way data You mentioned responding to citizen complaints and I would love it 05:08:19.773 --> 05:08:26.507 - if we can change all of our citizens to residents Because I would hope that we're responding to resident 05:08:26.507 --> 05:08:33.241 - complaints not just responding to the complaints of those people who are citizens so if that's something 05:08:33.241 --> 05:08:35.614 - that you can think about in terms of 05:08:36.610 --> 05:08:43.928 - language usage Always trying to be more inclusive. Thank you for that. Yeah, sure and then my last question 05:08:43.928 --> 05:08:50.703 - has to do actually with the bus stations and the inaccessible bus stations because between the 2023 05:08:50.703 --> 05:08:57.614 - and the 2025 there are still 12 percent that are inaccessible So can you just talk a little bit about 05:08:57.614 --> 05:09:04.661 - those 12 percent inaccessible bus stops and what makes them? Maybe especially challenging to remediate. 05:09:04.661 --> 05:09:06.558 - Um, yeah, so a lot of those 05:09:06.722 --> 05:09:15.523 - stops are at locations that people who live in that area feel very strongly about having a bus stop 05:09:15.523 --> 05:09:25.205 - there. But making it accessible is pretty cost prohibitive for some of those places because of the topography 05:09:25.205 --> 05:09:34.974 - and the street things and sidewalks around it. And there's lots of issues that are involved with those things. 05:09:35.170 --> 05:09:41.173 - And when they look at trying to make them accessible, they're going to be very expensive to do that 05:09:41.173 --> 05:09:47.477 - for a lot of them. So that's some of what it is. But I'm not going to try to talk too much more on that, 05:09:47.477 --> 05:09:53.540 - because I don't feel as qualified. That's really, I wish I had somebody from the Bloomington Transit 05:09:53.540 --> 05:09:59.543 - here to be able to speak more clearly with it. Because while they're part of the city and all that, 05:09:59.543 --> 05:10:04.766 - we get complaints or issues with that. Those complaints are turned right back to them. 05:10:05.154 --> 05:10:10.755 - Follow-up with them their Bloomington transits complaints and so We just asked for their data because 05:10:10.755 --> 05:10:16.467 - it's relevant to the city But I don't work as closely with them for those kind of things They work they 05:10:16.467 --> 05:10:22.013 - do come to council for community accessibility meetings though and work with us and when people make 05:10:22.013 --> 05:10:27.559 - complaints to them Directly at those meetings. They are listened to and they are addressed. They are 05:10:27.559 --> 05:10:31.678 - really good about that So they are they are working as hard as they can to 05:10:31.778 --> 05:10:39.896 - To stay connected to the people with disabilities and their needs Okay. Thank you. That was it. That 05:10:39.896 --> 05:10:48.497 - was all I had I had a quick question then I'll pass to come to Murillo So first off, thank you for staying 05:10:48.497 --> 05:10:51.230 - and so this is this is a plan but 05:10:51.586 --> 05:10:58.612 - It's there there are things that are left out of it. Like for example the accessibility of a council 05:10:58.612 --> 05:11:05.569 - meeting that goes to eleven forty five. But like all jokes aside there are and I know I was copying 05:11:05.569 --> 05:11:12.805 - on some emails back and forth about particular elements that that maybe had been in previous plans that 05:11:12.805 --> 05:11:18.718 - aren't here now certain implementation parts. So I'm interested in two things first. 05:11:19.010 --> 05:11:27.533 - And I don't mean this rhetorically, but it's late. Can you separate for us the sort of planning versus 05:11:27.533 --> 05:11:36.140 - the implementation? Who does each part of those? Where are we at in past plans in terms of implementing 05:11:36.140 --> 05:11:41.022 - them up until this point? So I'm trying to get a sense of, 05:11:41.314 --> 05:11:48.975 - If we're voting on this today, is this us sort of just saying, generally speaking, we approve you doing 05:11:48.975 --> 05:11:56.561 - a plan and continuing to iterate on it? Or are we saying, yes, this is the plan, run with it? The last 05:11:56.561 --> 05:12:03.927 - part is, if we all voted for this, right, is what we're saying to you, take this plan as is written 05:12:03.927 --> 05:12:08.126 - and do exactly that. Here's your map for the year ahead. 05:12:11.554 --> 05:12:23.734 - I'm gonna say that that's a tough question to answer If I had the magic wand to wave City departments 05:12:23.734 --> 05:12:36.271 - would be More responsible to me wishing that they would follow the ADA in a very strong way that I would 05:12:36.271 --> 05:12:41.406 - have trouble getting all of them to do and 05:12:41.538 --> 05:12:49.684 - I'm one person. There's a large amount of departments. They have a lot of challenging issues They try 05:12:49.684 --> 05:12:57.830 - to involve me as much as I can as much as I can, you know get everything in But there's also a lot of 05:12:57.830 --> 05:13:06.055 - complaints out in the community and those community members want to be heard and Stretched pretty thin 05:13:06.055 --> 05:13:11.326 - in that way and I'm not complaining. It's just that It would take 05:13:11.458 --> 05:13:17.662 - More support than I think is out there right now understood for 05:13:18.338 --> 05:13:25.465 - that to be a, here's the plan and everything in it. It doesn't contain everything in it. There's no 05:13:25.465 --> 05:13:32.805 - way it could. So you would agree that really we're separating, the plan is necessary for some external 05:13:32.805 --> 05:13:40.288 - entities, et cetera, but there's broader work that we need to do in the city to not only be ADA, I mean, 05:13:40.288 --> 05:13:47.486 - I think we're ADA compliant broadly, but to do that maximally, right? And so I would just, I'll say, 05:13:47.746 --> 05:13:52.551 - the quick note just to close that which is like I'm very interested in continuing to work both with 05:13:52.551 --> 05:13:57.501 - the Commission and with you to figure out what type of things council can do not only then because you 05:13:57.501 --> 05:14:02.451 - know because otherwise we're voting for something and it's kind of a meaningless vote but I think that 05:14:02.451 --> 05:14:07.448 - if what we're saying is okay here's some direction we get that there's there's things missing and we're 05:14:07.448 --> 05:14:12.542 - gonna take some solid action to fill in those other things I'd really like to see for example an audit of 05:14:12.930 --> 05:14:18.846 - Existing practices, right? And so if we say like hey, we have this plan How well are we doing against 05:14:18.846 --> 05:14:24.645 - some of those things and figuring out what that would cost without need and how we can support as a 05:14:24.645 --> 05:14:30.619 - council so So you're not alone on that. Yeah, I would just say that we'll continue to iterate this and 05:14:30.619 --> 05:14:36.476 - Continue to want to update it and revise it and make it better and try to address more issues all of 05:14:36.476 --> 05:14:42.334 - the time Okay. Thank you so much. I'm councillor Rallo Thank you, mr. Shermans for all you do I have 05:14:42.498 --> 05:14:53.795 - Constituent meetings with Chuck Livingston and he is you know, very focused on Various deficiencies 05:14:53.795 --> 05:15:05.996 - Whether just occasionally temporal ones or ones that are systemic and I'm sure you've had lots of exchanges 05:15:05.996 --> 05:15:09.950 - lots and yep, and I appreciate his 05:15:10.338 --> 05:15:20.194 - His work, he does a lot of walking, and he's checking on accessibility. So my question is about physical 05:15:20.194 --> 05:15:29.581 - accessibility related to our data portal and his difficulty in finding. If you're going to navigate 05:15:29.581 --> 05:15:38.311 - and you have disabilities, you want to know which way you can go without hitting, obviously, 05:15:38.311 --> 05:15:40.094 - a dead end, right? 05:15:40.642 --> 05:15:49.015 - So he's had difficulty finding, for instance, the conditions of sidewalks related to accessibility and 05:15:49.015 --> 05:15:57.552 - has had to merge various data sets in order to achieve that. So we see that there's a city working group 05:15:57.552 --> 05:16:05.925 - developed and implementing processes to meet new federal digital accessibility requirements. Will that 05:16:05.925 --> 05:16:09.502 - group also be looking at ways in which this 05:16:09.666 --> 05:16:18.099 - Data can be accessible Yeah to to people with disabilities so that they can navigate well Yes, we've 05:16:18.099 --> 05:16:26.449 - talked about that in that group and how we need to do that. Yes. Okay, so we can expect progress to 05:16:26.449 --> 05:16:35.133 - be made there okay Give anything else to say about your exchanges with mr. Livingston because um I have 05:16:35.133 --> 05:16:38.974 - worked pretty closely with mr. Livingston and 05:16:39.842 --> 05:16:48.455 - When I get complaints that come in and I get them I'm sure two or three a week They're for individual 05:16:48.455 --> 05:16:57.153 - issues from individual people in the communities Up until that time when he approached me and said I'm 05:16:57.153 --> 05:17:05.597 - about ready to make a complaint that is for several things and I said Okay, keep me posted and then 05:17:05.597 --> 05:17:09.566 - it came and it was like wow. This is a lot for 05:17:09.698 --> 05:17:17.693 - for me to have to try to organize and manage, and it's gonna cross more departments than just one department, 05:17:17.693 --> 05:17:25.471 - and then he did it again with another set, and then again with another set, and then he made two addendums 05:17:25.471 --> 05:17:32.812 - to that, and it was pretty overwhelming to have all of that at once. It required us to step back and 05:17:32.812 --> 05:17:36.446 - make a new protocol to figure out how to organize 05:17:37.186 --> 05:17:43.671 - numerous departments and gave emphasis on the word coordinator to my position as ADA coordinator because 05:17:43.671 --> 05:17:49.847 - it was a lot of coordination. I had to work with legal to be able to figure out how to make all the 05:17:49.847 --> 05:17:56.331 - processes convert. And it took longer than I would have ever wished because I feel like I'm an extremely 05:17:56.331 --> 05:18:00.222 - responsive person and I felt like I couldn't give as responses 05:18:00.482 --> 05:18:06.749 - responsive as I needed to be to him but we worked with him and I kept him posted as well as I could 05:18:06.749 --> 05:18:13.016 - and tried to communicate with him along the way and Just about four or five weeks ago. We were able 05:18:13.016 --> 05:18:19.408 - to respond to the vast majority of his things I'm not gonna say that he was gonna be pretty heat that 05:18:19.408 --> 05:18:25.801 - he because he has not responded back yet that he was gonna be particularly happy with everything that 05:18:25.801 --> 05:18:29.310 - we had to say because Engineering is quick to point out 05:18:29.538 --> 05:18:35.505 - That is not our responsibility. This is not our responsibility. Planning is like, well, we can do this, 05:18:35.505 --> 05:18:41.356 - but we can't do that. And parks will say, well, this is on the agenda. We tried to make it very clear 05:18:41.356 --> 05:18:47.093 - what kind of timelines we're trying to reach for all that, and we provided the answers back to them 05:18:47.093 --> 05:18:48.126 - as best we could. 05:18:48.354 --> 05:18:53.619 - I'm working with another complaint. It's that same kind of issues where there's a lot of things at once 05:18:53.619 --> 05:18:59.188 - that we're dealing with It's changed the way we're doing things I'm trying to learn how to be more responsive 05:18:59.188 --> 05:19:04.352 - to the giant kind of complaints as an individual one So I'm working with him and he has not responded 05:19:04.352 --> 05:19:09.516 - yet back in my in the month and I have not pursued him to say how come you're not Reconnecting so I'm 05:19:09.516 --> 05:19:14.730 - hoping you will. Okay. I hope that answers that thank you for taking the time to describe that I would 05:19:14.730 --> 05:19:16.958 - just say that Mr. Loewings since seems very 05:19:17.314 --> 05:19:25.288 - And and and I you know, I appreciate his critique But he's very appreciative of your work. Yeah, and 05:19:25.288 --> 05:19:33.183 - he says that's all time. It's not I'm gonna I'm not complaining I'm sorry. We should not be talking 05:19:33.183 --> 05:19:41.158 - about a single individual that like this extensively from the dais Well, why not? He's a constituent 05:19:41.158 --> 05:19:45.342 - I'm just saying that he is mr. Livingston has done a 05:19:45.666 --> 05:19:53.714 - It's a service and I and we're trying to address his issues. So yeah All right. Thank you so much Any 05:19:53.714 --> 05:20:01.999 - others? Okay, we will go to public comment. Thank you so much. Mr. Miss would anyone like to give public 05:20:01.999 --> 05:20:09.890 - comment? Thank you for That mr. Russo, take it away You've got eight minutes left Knowing that this 05:20:09.890 --> 05:20:14.782 - is on the agenda. So I apologize. Oh, go ahead this late hour 05:20:15.010 --> 05:20:22.722 - Yeah, Paul Russo would respectfully Disagree with the president. I believe that the city is wildly out 05:20:22.722 --> 05:20:30.434 - of compliance with the ADA. Good Yeah, this is a problem that doesn't land on any one person shoulders 05:20:30.434 --> 05:20:38.221 - at all. Certainly not mr. Shermas ADA was enacted what 36 years ago and we've been kicking the can down 05:20:38.221 --> 05:20:44.286 - the road for a long time I think of this issue as similar to the county jail and 05:20:45.090 --> 05:20:51.943 - Here we are. I would take the challenge to take any neighborhood with infrastructure more than 20 years 05:20:51.943 --> 05:20:58.597 - old, just throw a pin on a map, and within one block, I'll find you a blockage where a person with a 05:20:58.597 --> 05:21:05.318 - wheelchair cannot get through. It's all over the town. So it's a small wonder that Mr. Livingston, to 05:21:05.318 --> 05:21:12.237 - his great credit, has come up with so many instances of noncompliance. It's a big problem. I just wanted 05:21:12.237 --> 05:21:15.070 - to point that out. Thank you. Anyone else? 05:21:19.714 --> 05:21:30.458 - Good evening, my name is Eric host and I appreciate this opportunity to offer a comment I first want 05:21:30.458 --> 05:21:40.990 - to express appreciation for the work of Michael Sherman's He does a fantastic job and he's I think 05:21:41.346 --> 05:21:50.068 - that particular component of local government is under-resourced. So I would encourage you to look at 05:21:50.068 --> 05:21:58.790 - maybe putting more resources into his department. But anyway, I'm speaking tonight on this resolution 05:21:58.790 --> 05:22:07.512 - and I strongly endorse your consideration of the memorandum that Dave Askins sent you. It pertains to 05:22:07.512 --> 05:22:10.590 - accessibility, public transparency, 05:22:11.106 --> 05:22:19.434 - and digital document usability. I don't think you should necessarily not approve this plan, but I think 05:22:19.434 --> 05:22:28.002 - that you should take this as an ongoing process and address those issues and what I'm about to illuminate. 05:22:28.002 --> 05:22:35.850 - But first, I think that you should restore protocols and guidelines for Zoom meetings, especially 05:22:35.850 --> 05:22:40.094 - accessibility. That includes how do you enable chat, 05:22:40.546 --> 05:22:47.759 - Because we're moving into a world where technology assists are going to provide the ability for more 05:22:47.759 --> 05:22:55.114 - and more people to participate electronically Second I think that you should address the false tension 05:22:55.114 --> 05:23:02.255 - between accessibility and public records Mr. Askins Points out the issues with public records being 05:23:02.255 --> 05:23:09.182 - released but not accessible to members of the general public and that's only been since February 05:23:09.506 --> 05:23:16.735 - This year and it was done for not a reason that's been stated yet, but it can be presumed. It's because 05:23:16.735 --> 05:23:24.104 - of accessibility. However The deadline is until April of 2027 We need to work on making things accessible 05:23:24.104 --> 05:23:31.194 - and there is there are processes and methods that you can continue to publish unified PDFs as you did 05:23:31.194 --> 05:23:38.910 - all along so that they're downloadable and more accessible and I'd encourage you to look at doing that because 05:23:39.746 --> 05:23:48.167 - The current method of publishing meeting packets not the councils you've been spared From seeing this 05:23:48.167 --> 05:23:56.917 - okay, but other boards and commissions have and what it is is it's instead of a unified PDF packet You're 05:23:56.917 --> 05:24:05.420 - basically getting a fragmented multi-link web format that sometimes prompts you to log in you it's not 05:24:05.420 --> 05:24:08.062 - accessible and so if you have a 05:24:08.194 --> 05:24:15.490 - Something that's so fragmented like that You're just not gonna make it so I would I would request that 05:24:15.490 --> 05:24:22.785 - you take a look at that as a council as a legislative body because it is a matter of The open door law 05:24:22.785 --> 05:24:29.868 - open records Thank you for letting me speak. Thank you. Is there anybody else in chambers? Is there 05:24:29.868 --> 05:24:37.022 - anyone online? No one. Okay. Well, let's come back to council comments any comments before we vote I 05:24:39.458 --> 05:24:46.526 - Councilmember Rallo just to say that you know, I think that there's a lot of infrastructure that needs 05:24:46.526 --> 05:24:53.732 - to be attended to and it would take a tremendous amount of capital to to address the compliance failures 05:24:53.732 --> 05:25:00.732 - for people with disabilities but I think that that and the reason I brought up mr. Livingston is that 05:25:00.732 --> 05:25:07.869 - you know, he's he's getting at something that I think is essential and that is You don't have to attend 05:25:07.869 --> 05:25:08.830 - to everything 05:25:08.930 --> 05:25:16.899 - But you have to attend to enough to allow the accessibility that people can expect to get around the 05:25:16.899 --> 05:25:24.869 - community and to be able to get documents and and and You know Because like stormwater, I mean we're 05:25:24.869 --> 05:25:32.996 - not going to fix everything But we can hopefully make progress and I appreciate mr. Sherman's for your 05:25:32.996 --> 05:25:38.046 - work because I know it all basically ends up mostly on your lap 05:25:38.306 --> 05:25:44.791 - entirely, of course, but because of the Commission but Still I really appreciate your efforts and I 05:25:44.791 --> 05:25:51.341 - look forward to more progress. Thank you. Thank you so much I'll just say I and and first off. Thank 05:25:51.341 --> 05:25:57.891 - you so much. Mr. Tremont for all the work that you do and and again I would like to echo what I said 05:25:57.891 --> 05:26:04.570 - earlier and that we as a council I think and again, I don't want to speak for my colleagues but invite 05:26:04.570 --> 05:26:07.294 - them to join in in this statement is take 05:26:07.618 --> 05:26:14.638 - At least should take these questions Super seriously right that this isn't just a perform a thing. It's 05:26:14.638 --> 05:26:21.726 - not just okay And so I view this as a real opportunity Not just in the vote today, but in what continues 05:26:21.726 --> 05:26:28.611 - hereafter For us really to start focusing in I mean to hear you say look there's a lot I wish we were 05:26:28.611 --> 05:26:30.974 - doing but we're not doing that and 05:26:31.074 --> 05:26:36.815 - This has been my argument throughout the budget season, where I was like, our budget represents our 05:26:36.815 --> 05:26:42.555 - values, and so what is it that we're really investing in, and how are we moving resource to support 05:26:42.555 --> 05:26:48.296 - the outcomes that we want to see? And I think that particularly with the reality of having an aging 05:26:48.296 --> 05:26:54.036 - population, for example, I think of trying to talk about ourselves as being a place where everybody 05:26:54.036 --> 05:26:59.892 - can thrive, regardless of where you come from, regardless of your ability or inability, regardless of 05:26:59.892 --> 05:27:01.040 - anything, sickness, 05:27:01.040 --> 05:27:07.545 - or health, no matter what, we want to be a city where people can thrive. And to me, I feel like our 05:27:07.545 --> 05:27:09.822 - conversations around accessibility 05:27:09.890 --> 05:27:15.004 - and including some of the comments that have come through and critiques of the way that we're doing 05:27:15.004 --> 05:27:20.117 - things, I think has shown that we're not really prioritizing that. We have not made it the way that 05:27:20.117 --> 05:27:25.538 - we've said, hey, we're gonna be a bee city, we're gonna be a tree city. Well, why don't we be the shining 05:27:25.538 --> 05:27:30.958 - example of what it means to be an accessible city? And so I'm gonna vote no on the plan today, but again, 05:27:30.958 --> 05:27:36.225 - not in any reflection of your work, please don't take it personally. I think that there's so much more 05:27:36.225 --> 05:27:39.856 - that we need to do, and that's what I was getting at with my question, 05:27:39.856 --> 05:27:46.729 - Is that I really it concerns me that this that we do something like this is sort of like a perfunctory 05:27:46.729 --> 05:27:53.536 - You know activity and I think that all of us as council Really would like to support Making sure that 05:27:53.536 --> 05:28:00.342 - this city is a city where everybody really can thrive that it's not just something we put on a slogan 05:28:00.342 --> 05:28:02.878 - anybody else a councilmember Stasberg 05:28:03.330 --> 05:28:10.639 - Respond to that a little bit. I am gonna support this today and one of the things when you were speaking 05:28:10.639 --> 05:28:17.670 - before Councilmember sorry when you were Asking kind of like what are we really voting on today is I 05:28:17.670 --> 05:28:24.909 - actually looked at the ordinance and I said, what are we really voting on today? And so it has it being 05:28:24.909 --> 05:28:32.079 - approved as an advisory document outlining a plan and so I Can agree? Yeah, maybe we need to have like 05:28:32.079 --> 05:28:33.054 - a more Robust 05:28:33.346 --> 05:28:44.311 - plan, but what I'm actually voting on is approving this as an advisory document that outlines a plan. 05:28:44.311 --> 05:28:55.491 - So, yeah. Thanks. Oh, where's everybody gone? Okay. Any other comments? All right. With that, honorable 05:28:55.491 --> 05:29:01.726 - clerk, for the last time, wilt thou call the roll kindly? 05:29:06.722 --> 05:29:18.332 - Yes, I'm sorry. Nope daily. Yep Yes Yes And Stasberg yes Fantastic that passes. All right, we got through 05:29:18.332 --> 05:29:29.942 - A herculean amount of things. Okay, this is now the second time for public comment if you did not comment 05:29:29.942 --> 05:29:33.118 - the first time anyone anyone 05:29:33.250 --> 05:29:41.461 - Okay. Clerk Bolden, would you like to say a few words? Anybody online? Clerk Bolden would like to make 05:29:41.461 --> 05:29:49.591 - a public comment. Please state your name for the record. Hush you. So I intended to say it toward the 05:29:49.591 --> 05:29:57.563 - beginning of the meeting and my apologies for adding this to it. I appreciate those of you who wore 05:29:57.563 --> 05:30:01.150 - purple to recognize Domestic Violence Month. 05:30:01.282 --> 05:30:07.145 - And I just wanted to underscore that if you are in a situation where you're facing domestic violence, 05:30:07.145 --> 05:30:13.181 - you can call 911 if you're in immediate danger. If you need some assistance or need to talk to anything, 05:30:13.181 --> 05:30:19.332 - you can call the National Domestic Violence Hotline, which is 1-800-799-SAFE. I'm saying it to any members 05:30:19.332 --> 05:30:25.138 - of the public who may watch it later and also to council members so you can pass that information on 05:30:25.138 --> 05:30:28.702 - to your constituents as well. And please don't forget we have 05:30:28.994 --> 05:30:35.040 - several local resources that are wonderful and enormously helpful. So there's a protective order project 05:30:35.040 --> 05:30:40.913 - that is run through the law school. And there's also a middle way house, which we should never forget 05:30:40.913 --> 05:30:46.728 - to mention in every conversation that we're having with people because, because it's very important. 05:30:46.728 --> 05:30:52.486 - So I just wanted to underscore it. It's not enough to, you know, bring the purple into the room. We 05:30:52.486 --> 05:30:57.150 - should also be talking about resources available to people as well. That was it. 05:30:57.538 --> 05:31:05.379 - Appreciate it. And for those of you who have not signed, please stop on by. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. 05:31:05.379 --> 05:31:13.377 - All right Council schedule importantly go ahead This Friday is canceled because it was supposed to be 05:31:13.377 --> 05:31:21.375 - a controller Jeff McKim show and he Has jury duty. Okay. Well, thank you democracy. We have on the 20 05:31:21.375 --> 05:31:23.806 - what they would we set for the 05:31:24.738 --> 05:31:31.498 - 26th on the 26th, we're having a special session of council so that we can vote for the levies What 05:31:31.498 --> 05:31:38.461 - are we voting for? The public safety that PS led, sorry So we'll have a special session that shouldn't 05:31:38.461 --> 05:31:45.357 - be long if you're able to make it, please You need to be in person for that one However, and where is 05:31:45.357 --> 05:31:52.455 - that meeting? That's gonna happen in the same room as the committee on the process room Okay, fantastic. 05:31:52.455 --> 05:31:54.686 - And that is at 7 p.m It actually 05:31:54.786 --> 05:32:00.860 - We'll talk about it. It's been noticed for 6 30 p.m. And I understand that that bumps up against the 05:32:00.860 --> 05:32:06.875 - committee on council processes a little bit, but okay Yeah, thank you very much again. Ms. Rossman. 05:32:06.875 --> 05:32:13.069 - Thank you, sir. Great great first meeting. Hey We blame you that we're leaving at midnight. All right. 05:32:13.069 --> 05:32:16.798 - Have a wonderful day everybody. Goodbye Because it is morning