Call the committee of the whole to order and we will start with appropriation ordinance 2025-13 the
council will now receive a presentation from Katlyn Sager director of the utilities department Welcome,
please state your name for the record and Kat Sager utilities director. I'm presenting the ordinance
adopting the
budget for the operation maintenance debt service and capital improvements for the water and wastewater
utility departments for the city of Bloomington, Indiana for the year 2026. Our water utility budget
totals $23,119,000. And our wastewater utility budget is $34,590,000. Happy to take any questions.
Thank you. The floor is now open for questions from council members under Bloomington municipal code
section two point zero four point two five zero Parentheses see there is no limit on how often a member
may speak However, no member may speak for longer than five minutes at a time any questions From council
members councilmember Piedmont Smith
Yes, I asked this in the written questions, and you answered, but I still don't understand. So I'm hoping
to get some clarity. And that is the extensions and replacements under section one of the water utility
is a negative amount, negative $603,000. Why are we budgeting a negative amount? Yeah, sure.
So I'll answer that question. Also, another question I receive around the same topic. So when you look
at our budget, there's actuals and then our budgeted amount. The actuals are zero or close to zero because we don't
Charge things to extensions and replacements Extensions and replacements is how we balance our water
budget which needs to be a net zero budget So when we have a positive extensions and replacements, we
use that for things like unexpected Expenses and maintenance when it is negative. It's indicative of
a shortfall which I discussed during our budget presentation and
That shortfall we are planning on taking a one-time loan from our sewer utility to make up for that
That helper Yes, so what why is why is it called extensions and replacements Just historical yeah, it's
a historical name for it and
It doesn't actually refer to extending or replacing people assume it means it's physically extending
and replacing pipe But that's not the meaning of it. No, so it's its own fund. Yes. Okay. All right.
Thank you Any other councilmembers have questions Councilmember Rallo I had a question forgot to ask
it during budget and that is I'm curious to know what our
current spare capacity is of our water treatment plant in other words, where are we in terms of it's
you know, we we had improvements about 10 or 12 years ago, maybe more 15 years ago, and I don't think
there have been any other expansion since then Where are we? I think the maximum was about 34 million
per day or so
So the maximum capacity of our water treatment plant is 30 million gallons per day We average around
15 with highs around 19 to 20 Okay, so we're well within Our we have a lot of spare capacity. Yes, we
maintain capacity. Okay Great. Thank you Okay, we will now take public comment
Members of the public may provide comments. If you are in chamber, please approach the podium, state
your name for the record, sign in on the sheet and speak directly into the microphone. Not seeing anyone
in chambers. If you are joining via zoom, please raise your hand by using the reactions tab or send
a message to the host. Each speaker will have three minutes to share their comments. Do we have any
speakers on zoom? No, we do not. Thank you.
Any takers in the chambers? Okay in that case that will end our public comment period and I will return
the floor to council members to ask any additional questions or provide any further comment Councilmember
Piedmont Smith So just to clarify for the public this budget does not assume any rate increases, is
that correct?
budget does not assume a rate increase and we'll be talking about that soon in this body. Yes we will
be talking about that soon here. Thank you. Any other comments. OK. In that case I will entertain any
motions at this time.
I move that the committee of the whole make a recommendation to the council for the adoption of appropriation
ordinance twenty twenty five dash thirteen. Clerk Bolden will you please call the roll. Absolutely.
Piedmont Smith. Yes. Stasberg. Yes. Daily. Yes. Sulek. Yes. Rosenberger.
Yes. Sorry. Yes. Thank you. With a vote of seven zero that motion passes and now we'll move
on to appropriation ordinance twenty five dash twelve and the council will now receive a presentation
from John Connell general manager of Bloomington transit. Mr. Connell if you could introduce yourself
for the record.
Thank you for being a general manager of Bloomington Public Transportation Corporation respectfully
request an approval of this appropriation ordinance establishing the Bloomington Public Transportation
Corporation's twenty twenty six budget. There are no changes been made to the twenty twenty six budget
since the August council meeting and presentation. The total of the twenty
2026 budget is 19 million three hundred and eighty three thousand four hundred and two dollars with
a proposed property tax rate of point zero three seven one Thank you so much for your presentation at
this point the floor is open for questions from council members as a reminder There is no limit on how
often a member may speak but no longer than five minutes at a time any questions
Councilmember Piedmont Smith Yes, how does the 0.0371 rate compare with the 2025 rate? So the 25 rate
was 0.0 403 but the 25 budget was 32 million as opposed to 19 million so they 20 the 2025 budget Had
significant amount of capital programming So it's there's a reduction this year
Believe it's 72 percent in our capital budget Thank you Councilmember Stossberg Thank you. I have a
question about the
The budget form to estimate of miscellaneous revenue. There's two parts of it. One is Revenue code are
one one nine, which has a state federal and local payments in lieu of taxes and in 2025 that numbers
zero But then in 2026, we're expecting over six million dollars and I just want to understand First
where that revenue source is coming from Which former young
Budget form to estimate of miscellaneous revenue. That's what it is titled in our packet And then it's
the third line that in 2025 was zero and then in 2026 is estimated to be six and a half million almost
So the six
6.4 that includes the ED lit that we Received from the city in addition to the PMTF, which is the public
mass transportation fund Forms of revenue though for BT because they're they are existing I'll have
to Check with our controller. I'm not quite certain of
Why that that would be zero Okay If you could give me that answer of why 2025 was zero that would be
great or if that's an error on that form I have another question about that form to you, but I'll yield
back to another member if they have question Do any other council members have questions at this time?
To you councilmember Stilesburg. Okay And then on that format also in the second line from the bottom
the other charges for services sales and fees that's also Increasing by over a million dollars. So I'm
just wondering if you're Are you raising rates or do you think that there's your ridership numbers up
like what accounts for that just over a million dollars of increase expectation for revenue
That is, let me go back to the revenue side here.
That is the increase from the Partnership agreements that we have that includes the Monroe County service
as well. Okay That makes a lot of sense. Thank you so much Great Councilmember Piedmont Smith well,
I just wanted to thank council member Stossberg for her question about the
Huge increase in the state federal and local payments in lieu of taxes. I wonder if I'm looking at the
next line federal and state grants and distributions which was fourteen point seven million is last
or for the second half of 25 and Is down to six point four million next year. I wonder if that line
was lit up for next year Yeah, so that that includes the so the federal for the federal grant that
Like I mentioned in 25 we had the budget was almost twice of what it is this year and that was driven
by that infusion of federal dollars that is not being reflected in in the current year. So you are correct
there. That does have an impact on that number. OK. But yeah but it's not it's not part of the pilot.
Yeah that's totally separate. OK I understand that line is so much decreased because we just don't have
any grants coming in. Yeah. Well our capital budget is 72 percent lower this year than it was last year.
OK. Well I'm looking forward to getting the answer for OK. I can I can the state and local payments.
Thank you. Other questions.
Seeing none, we will move into public comment on appropriation ordinance 2025-12. Mr. Connell, thank
you so much for your presentation. This section constitutes a public hearing held in accordance with
Indiana Code Title 6, Article 1.1, Chapter 17, Section 3. If you are in the chamber, please approach
the podium, state your name for the record, and sign in on the sheet.
If you are joining via Zoom, please raise your hand using the reactions tab or send a message to the
host. Each speaker will have three minutes to share their comments. Do we have any takers on Zoom? No.
Great. Thank you. Last chance for chambers. Seeing none, that will conclude our public comment period.
And we will return to council members to ask questions or offer any comments. Council members.
Councilmember Piedmont Smith Yeah, I just wanted to Wish mr. Connell and his staff luck in finding a
new location for the Transportation Center. I know that you're outgrowing your current location. So
I hope hopefully that'll move along in the coming year We're getting closer. Thank you Any other questions
or comments Seeing none I am happy to entertain a motion. I
That the committee of the whole make a recommendation to the council for adoption of appropriation ordinance
2025-13 Okay, I rescind that I move that the committee of the whole make a recommendation to the council
for the adoption of appropriation ordinance 2025-12 Clerk Bolton, would you please call the roll? Yes, yes Yes
Daily. Yes. Stasburg. Yes. Rosenberger. Yes. Sorry. Yes. And Rallo. Yes. Great. With a vote of seven
dash zero that ordinary appropriation ordinance passes as well. Moving right along into appropriation
ordinance twenty five dash eleven or twenty twenty five dash eleven. The council will now receive a
presentation from Jessica McClellan city controller.
Good evening council Jessica McClellan city controller. I respectfully request your consideration in
approval of ordinance 2025 dash 11 the budget for the civil city of Bloomington for a total of 163 million
152 thousand five hundred and fifty seven dollars
That is a total that has been noted had the public notice published in the form three and the ordinance
that is before you as the form four. We have a memo that we've submitted that go through some of the
changes that we made. The most substantial change that we made between the budget hearings and tonight
is that we added point seven percent to the cola for a total cola of two point seven percent for all
non-union regular appointed employees.
Other employees such as a police and fire already had their budgeted three percent increase for cola
and for AFSCME we have
We've agreed with AFSCME to give them a 5% increase for next year, but we have not closed AFSCME negotiations
yet, and those continue on their contract, but they will be getting an increase in their salary nonetheless
of 5% for next year while we work on those negotiations. Those are the most substantial changes to the
budget since when they presented to you in budget hearings. There have been minor corrections to things like
Like a little bit too much health insurance or a little bit too much of the deferred compensation match
things like that in the personnel budget We went through and audited all of that and corrected that
And at this point, I'd be happy to take any questions that you have either about the budget in total
details things you'd like to for me to follow up on and the advertised rate
Thank you so much controller McClellan for that presentation. The floor is now open for questions from
council members. As a reminder, no limit on how often a member may speak, but there is a five minute
at a time requirement. So any questions? Council member Stosberg. Thank you. So I was trying to compare
the adopted tax rates for this budget that were being presented
for next year to the one that we were presented last year for this year. And it last year's packet doesn't
quite align in quite the same way in terms of how things look. And so I was having a hard time doing
that. So if you could just run through the differences between the tax rate this year and the tax rate
last year and how that might be reflected for people in terms of
their actual bills, because at least one of them on the ordinance or resolution for appropriations and
tax rates that this year is 1.3632, last year's was 1.0414, which is definitely an increase. But then
it looked like for lots of different funds, they were all a little different. And they had their own
page. And I couldn't align all of them with last year's. So if you could go through that, that would be great.
Yeah, this is I'd be happy to go over that and for the public and for the council. This is the most
confusing and honestly Sort of nonsensical part of approving this budget and for that I apologize There's
okay. We're gonna talk right now real quick about the ordinance ordinance number 25 11 on the bottom
of that first page you'll see that you're adopting a tax rate of 1.36
Okay, first throw that number out the window. That is not going to be the tax rate and that is the most
nonsensical part of this whole presentation. It's because this is where the thing comes in where we
say we advertise high. That rate is advertised high. It's not going to be 1.36. We advertise a high
rate because the DLGF is going to set our rate. They're gonna take our actual certified net assessed value
Divide it by these actual these are actually our budget. This is our actual budget numbers and your
actual levy numbers But the DLGF is going to come up with the perfect rate that gets us our full amount
of budget and we're going to advertise high a high rate So that they have a lot of leeway to give us
the rate that we need Okay, and now I'm going to talk about something that is not in your packet somewhere
this year 2025 the city of Bloomington's actual tax rate is
0.8 7 8 6 2 7 the actual tax rate for the city of Bloomington is 0.8 6 2 7 and We can and we've estimated
the actual tax rate for the city of Bloomington next year is going to be 0.8 4 2 6 so 0.8 6 2 7 to 0.8
4 2 6 it'll be somewhere around 0.8 4 2 6 and
somewhere around that and we'll we'll know when the DLGF reviews our budget certifies our budget and
gives us our actual rate. We advertise high because there is rounding and there is this thing where
if we add if you guys approve a rate that's like
one percentage, like one hundredth of a percentage point too low, but the DLGF could have given us one
percentage point higher to get us closer to our budget, we could lose out on like 10, 20 thousand dollars.
So, it's not a great answer to your question, like we can't line up, why is that 1.3% different than
the 1.4 or 2% that it was last year? But I do want to tell you that
We and we estimate that next year Bloomington civil cities tax rate will go down Okay, thank you you're
welcome other questions councilmember, sorry, I
Thank you so much as always. First question is yesterday when the county decided to bond that raised
a big question mark right of the with SEA 1 etc. How are they able to do that. I'll speak in general
terms because I don't know exactly what they're doing. I know generally what they're doing a six year bond.
is considered a longer is not is not considered a short term bond. If it's not a short term bond it's
not subject to the cooling off requirements. We did not consider a six year bond just for general city
operations like we did last year because we're considering bonds for much bigger projects right now.
And we want to kind of keep our powder dry so to speak.
We're not ready to just like yes, we do need to bond to like our short-term bond process that we tried
to start last year like we have to reanalyze that and we also have big projects that we need to complete
and so we just Did not consider something like a six-year bond and it's happening because it's not a
short-term bond and not subject to the cooling off period that makes total sense and then as far as I know I
Yeah, yeah. And actually, thank you. You anticipated the question I was going to ask is whether we consider
that. The second question that I have was around this ongoing conversation that we've been having from
day one of budget about the accuracy of our projected deficit. In the time in between since we started
these conversations and now, how confident do you feel in the likelihood that we actually approach that?
That deficit spending this year, which would be which would be a unique thing in Bloomington's history
Alright, so I think what you're if I'll give some history to like other to members of the public other
people here tonight That we typically don't spend our entire budget So when we plan for our budget next
year, we have to assume we're gonna spend our whole budget this year And that typically doesn't happen
mostly because of personnel expenses that don't get spent and so we are
projecting a nine million nine point four million dollar deficit at the end of next year, but There's
a very good chance That we will have left less of a deficit because we might only spend 90% We're projecting
to spend about 90% of our budget this year Which will improve our deficit position this year and next
year. So we estimate around 90% which is about where we have been hovering and
Excellent. And then this is a super minor question. In the packet, I'm supposing that the squares on
the Excel sheet weren't large enough before it was converted to a PDF. So there's five items that don't
actually have numbers, but they have hashes. And I'm sure we've seen these actual numbers in another
place, but may be worth getting.
Council staff was awesome enough to send out a packet addendum, a packet addendum. Did that come out
like yesterday or the day before? And it does have, yes, it does have all the numbers. And actually,
as a point to that sheet, there's an error that I made on that sheet. I entered, there's a whole line
on there about engineering, ED lit,
engineering design and right-of-way acquisition for college and walnut and then it has a bunch of hash
marks those hash marks should say 1.4 million that is just an Oopsie that is not a thing So the revised
version of that will just have that it's not even in the addendum. We just found that today Thank you.
You're welcome
Explanation referring to the table that you were speaking about with the adopted tax rate of one point
three six Etc You've got the adopted budget the adopted tax levy and then the various rates Are they
you've overestimated? As you explained are they all overestimated by the same increment?
Yes, they are all overestimated by the same increment, but that only applies to funds with an adopted
tax levy So general fund parks MVH The bond funds So The adopted budget will stay the same the adopted
levy will stay the same it's just when I
You can't see it on this form, but this form is created by another form in which I enter the CNAV, and
I enter the CNAV as $4.3 billion. Our certified net assessed value is $5.4 billion. And so that difference
between $4.3 billion and $5.4, that's what makes the rate higher. So those dollar amounts that you see
will stay exactly the same, and then the rates will go down.
Okay I see. Thank you. That's clarity. Smith. What has changed since the budget hearings that eight
hundred eighty three thousand six ninety nine was added to the sanitation fund support. So that's huge.
It was already it was seven hundred thousand. So that's.
More than doubling what the proposed to be moved from the general fund to the sanitation fund. Yes.
Could you speak to why that is. Yes definitely. The sanitation fund is a self-contained fund. Think
of it like a little business. It is all the revenue that comes from sanitation goes into one fund and
all the expenses that come from sanitation are in one fund and it's it's
It's like a simple business. We are not charging enough for sanitation. And so we're falling short on
revenue. So we're going to come with back to you and we're going to give you all the information about
you know what we need what what it costs what we're doing what we could be doing what we could change.
We're going to come back to you and you and we're going to ask the council to decide there's there's
really two options.
You know a combination of these two options. We continue to support it with general fund Which is totally
fine or we raise rates and ask that the the resident To pay for the actual cost of service right now
We're not charging for the actual cost of service and so we will bring that information to you because
we want you to make a You know an informed decision in either way is fine, but you just need to know
you know you can make that decision and
We will get out of this situation or we can agree that we want to support it through the general fund
So right now we're supporting it through the general fund As just kind of a Way to make it work but
I feel like you guys need all the information to either to make the decision of what you really want
to do with that with with that service that we provide as a city and
Yes we had that discussion two years ago. Even I and I understand there's a subsidy for sanitation services
but why is this this is more than half a million dollars increase between last year 2024 actuals and
what you're proposing for 2026. So have the expenses gone that much higher.
What is going on? I went back and this again this information. Well, we will bring this information
all to you in more detail It's not in this packet I went back and looked at what the actual general
fund support has been over the years and it's been it does hover around You know like 900 to a little
bit over a million 1.5 is high a lot of and
We will be coming back to you this year for more support in the sanitation fund. We don't know what
that will be yet because we want to wait till the end of the year because we only want to ask for exactly
what we need. I don't think it will be one point five million next year because of things like employee
retention like vacancies and employment that kind of thing. But to balance the budget we have to advertise
We have to advertise for that kind of revenue support in the general fund. I don't think that we will
actually need that much next year But that is what is needed like sort of on paper to make to make our
actual expenses if every position is filled and we Spend as much as we have budgeted for like fuel and
repair and supplies and uniforms
If we spend everything that is budgeted, we will need that much. But there's a very good chance that
we won't spend that much. However, we usually subsidize it by around a million dollars. And I don't
think we will need $1.5 million next year, but we will need around a million unless we change something.
So between the budget hearings and today, or the creation of this packet,
The I guess the expenditures Must have increased. Can we see the new sheets that show how they've increased?
That oh gosh That was an aspirational budget on on our on our part purely purely on my part I thought
that we would be able to find a way to cut their expenses to get it down to make 700,000 work and we
we could not we did not and
We did not increase we increase their expenses by like the AFSCME contract only by salaries We did increase
their budget through salaries But we did not increase any of their other kind other expenses and I wish
I should have presented a budget to you in the budget hearings that had more of general fund support
But I thought that there would be a way that I could find a way to make it work and I could not
That's purely yeah all that it is. I I think if I showed you I don't think I have that version of those
Those like financial reports with the 700 I mean I could easily recreate it and it would have showed
a deficit budget I think there might have been a deficit budget in the budget book, but For now, so
thank you Councilmember Stasburg I'll follow up on that a little bit just for
some clarity. So I think I just heard you say that sanitation is going to need an additional appropriation
for 2025. Yes. OK. And.
What I heard, because I asked Director Wason about this during his presentation, too, because the $700,000
that was budgeted was substantially less than past years. And he said, well, worse comes to worse. We'll
just need an additional appropriation next year. So what you just said is to basically make it work
out on paper to the satisfaction of the state. We have to additionally budget the subsidy now, even
if it doesn't get used later. Yes.
Right. Yes. Yes, that is very true and like it's like a budget and in actual like every day every month
we check that fund and it's hovering right around zero and then over time it gets further and you know,
it gets more and more and more into the negative and then at the end of the year we come back and we
bring it back to zero and then we hope You know, we hope that the revenues next year will cover the
costs and they never do and they they're not going to Until we raise them like it's just not
It's just It just doesn't make any budgetary sense so Now we have to do something Mm-hmm, but you know,
there's options the city could decide literally it can be your choice to fund it with a general fund
That's totally fine. But I just want you to have all the information and you to make that choice Okay,
thank you. Um, and then I think I had one other
unrelated question, but now I can't find it, so I'll just... Other questions? Oh, Council Member Asari. Hello.
Well, actually, let me ask the other question, because I lost my train of thought on that point. When
we talked about the increasing COLA, we had originally proposed cutting a handful of things, particularly
around, I think, consulting fees and studies and the like. Did those get cut, or? Yes. OK, so. I can
tell you that. Yeah, tell us that, because what was removed from the budget was not in the memo.
Yeah, the most substantial one is I cut 127,000 from legal services, special legal services in the legal
department. And if you remember, there was just around 900,000 special legal services. And it was definitely
like a cushion. We never spend that much. It might be used. It's nice to have. And I thought that was
a great place to transfer some of that into the COLA.
And then that's just general fund. And then there's other funds that don't really have that much cushion,
but they didn't have that much I needed to cut. So I found things like, I don't know, uniforms look
like you budget this much and you only spend 75% most years. So I cut a little bit out of something
like that.
Following on then on the question of sanitation just general information how can we set rates in the
middle of the year? Does that happen once a year during does do the rates for sanitation get set during
budget or can we change those at some point during the year? Those don't get set during budget. They
I've never done a sanitation rate set So I hope I'm not speaking on a turn, but I believe sanitation
comes public works comes you the council approves like a multi-year range and
And so that was, I think that was done in 2022 or 2023. So that range is set and then like every three
or four years they have to come back and kind of do this presentation of what they need. Does anyone
know if that's able to, can you interrupt that process? I'm sure you can. It's your ordinance. You can
do whatever you want with it. I'm not an attorney.
Do I do I do like this advice generally? I mean that do whatever you do whatever you can camp Thank
you Councilmember Piedmont Smith So going back to the memo about what had changed I don't understand how
The general fund budget deficit decreased about $2 million when we had to increase the salaries. So
there were more cuts than the increases. I don't understand. Because the deficit in the budget book
was $11 million, and now it's $9.48 million.
We made a lot of corrections. Come on, help me. Oh, yeah. Gretchen reminded me.
It's literally like the sausage, making the sausage is not pretty. There was an over $2 million error
somewhere between what was in New World and what was in the budget book. So that was corrected. I didn't
cut hardly anything.
Exporting I really yeah, this is really embarrassing because I don't remember exactly how it happened,
but it's it's better Exporting things from ESD from New World to the budget book. I made changes Yeah, please
So in this year's budget, she had done some things differently with ESD's budget as it's set up in New
World, for example, splitting it in ways so that they could see what are they spending on their three
different areas, arts, sustainability, and economic development. Actually, there's four. TDM is the
other one. And so when she did that, you may recall when we looked through their budgets and the exported
pages, those long line ones, some of you pointed out like these can't be right because these numbers
are missing.
I think that's where the error happened because we'd made this change in how those budgets were structured.
Those sheets are exported through a macro. Otherwise it takes a whole week to do them. So we made a
macro last year and the macro didn't account for some of these new divisions that we made. They're really
just for ESD to be able to track their own expenses internally better, but it created a problem in the
export. And so when we went back and corrected that,
Then we learned that the numbers that appeared in the budget book had carried over that error from the
export. They were correct in New World. It just didn't export correctly because of the way the macro
was structured. I think that's what happened. I actually I have a little time left. May I ask another
question. So it's good to hear that the ask me employees will get a 5 percent raise. Is that I assume I mean
Was that was there enough padding in the budget to allow for that? Yes, there is we did not have to
do make an increase because we had already built some padding into the budget for something for them.
Yes. Oh good. It was a lump sum in the other personal services line. And so now we're going to go and
make those adjustments before the beginning of next year into each one of those salary lines and it
won't change and then
remove that total amount from each one of those other personal services lines and The total of those
personal services lines won't change. It's just moving We'll just move it within the budget within category
one. Yeah within category one within each fund within each department It's already set up in each department
that has AFSCME employees So it's not at all like last year where we had six million dollars in the
human resources fund and we had to or account we had to
Move it to all the different funds. It's already in where it needs to be Okay, good. Thank you Councilmember
Stossberg Since you mentioned the personal services line I This is like nitpicky and weird maybe and
probably it has something to do with how the state wants you to report it but on those on that budget
estimate the budget form one is
The category is personal services, but all the personal services are spent on personnel. So why isn't
it personnel? Why is it personal services? Let me get down there. I just find that nonsensical because
those two words are so close to each other. It just feels like it's a language error, but it's so consistent
that I don't think it possibly can be, but I just would like to know why.
One thing I don't like is that it says personal services. I wish it said personnel services Well, right.
That's what I mean. Like why doesn't that say personnel services? Is that just a state? Yeah, that's
that all that that whole entire form is filled out by like a little like wizard That I entered those
dollar amounts into like I have a trick there's a drop-down and I pick those and we pick those categories
and and there's only personal like
That's salaries and wages, personal services. I just pick those categories and then enter the amounts.
So I don't have control over any of that. OK. So there's not a personnel category. Let's see. Yes. Right.
There is not a category that says personnel. It should say personnel. I don't know why it says personal
services. That's just not a thing. It's a really personal, honestly. It's very personal.
Why are we getting so personal? Yeah Trust me. I spent a lot of time changing I can change the wording
and we're in the column that says line item And I notice hopefully all of those say personnel services
I believe so all the ones that I have looked at I that's me necessarily I don't have any control over
that column that says personal services. Okay. Thank you Councilmember sorry
First, this might be just a silly question, or maybe I'm uninformed. On form 4B at the end of it, the
total is 163, 152, 557. Yes? 4B, 4B. At the end of the- Oh, up there. Let me get to the- Yeah, and then
in the memo, the number is 162, 556, 352. And I wasn't listening carefully enough when you introduced
the budget a second ago and gave the number in great eloquence.
All right, let's see here. We're gonna go to, that's transit. Let me go past transit. And then 25, 11.
So the form. Form four, I don't know if it's form B, I think it's just four. Form four. Yeah. So you
have to take the total on the first page, which is not, this may not,
Fingers crossed this adds up to the memo. The total on the first page is 110,184,108. And then you add
that to 52,968,449. And that is, I just added it today, is 163,152,557. All right, and let's check the
memo is on page 73.
Boy total budget is 160 says 162 556 352 I think that is because the memo we we have the memo From with
the total from New World and what we're advertising in the budget is slightly higher because the rate
For the QM CAP development fund is advertised slightly higher and it's producing it is actually producing
a higher budget than what we are approving than what we are going to use and that what we are going
to get just for that one fund because it is a rate controlled fund. These are. Yeah. OK. OK. I apologize.
These are very complicated things that it takes.
I don't know. I don't Want to bore it like I don't want to go over it ad nauseam budget hearing it's
gonna be okay I Hate that I have to tell you to trust me because I know you have to approve this and
vote on this We I mean I trust you but in the public, you know, the public has and you have to report
back to the public It will be right
And I think maybe the motivation of asking the question to your point about the public, I mean, we,
you know, the county last year made an accounting error that had a, right, so, you know, a million dollars,
you know, maybe. So just double checking that. And then in the change, I mean, still pulling, and then I have
I have this question and then if I have time, I'll ask one last question. But the pulling on this thread
again of the changes, we have talked a lot during budget.
budget proposal preparation, and then also in the budget hearings about the sort of circuit breaker.
To be honest, don't totally understand it. But the impact on the circuit breaker with SEA 1 and all
of that, did that go down or up between? Because I know that there were some changes in estimates and
actuals sort of between first preparation of the proposal and now. Was there any change in that impact
between now and what we're seeing today?
There isn't any change. The amount of money that we're going to lose to circuit breakers is baked into
the budget in this way that in our internal budget in New World, it's baked into the amount of money
we're going to collect from property taxes. So if we're going to collect $27 million from property taxes,
but we know we're going to get $1 million,
Losses, we're only budgeting for 26 million in property taxes However when we advertise and approve
the budget it's not baked in we're advertising and approving the full amount of property taxes we think
we're gonna get and That's just the way the forms work and that's just the way approving the budget works so
There's sort of like the budget we know that we're going to actually get and use is slightly different
from the budget that we're advertising and approving because things like the property tax, the losses
to the property tax credits aren't included in that full levy number. We're not going to get that full
levy. Things like the rate being a little bit higher, and that affects the CUME CAP development fund
and what we advertise for that.
Truly wish that it was more transparent like from the state down in that respect Thank you other questions
councilmember Piedmont Smith Yeah, I just like to get down to Well, no, actually I want to take a higher
view 10,000 foot view so most of our budget
How much of our budget is property taxes and how much is income taxes? Can you remind us? Okay I have
property taxes up in front of me right now All right, I write this down 47 property taxes and this is
general and the geo bonds parks and rec MVH and the cube cap development fund forty six million two
hundred and sixteen thousand five forty two
But what what percent of our budget is that was that maybe in your introduction is August don't know
don't know the percent. I see it. It's thirty seven point four and it should be pretty close. Yeah.
So I'm sorry I have it thirty seven point four percent and then local income tax is thirty three point
one percent. So
When we look at the well-being of Bloomington into the future since a majority comes from those two
sources what should we be be focused on. I mean the way we get the the total assessed value of properties
in our county. Right. And that's what the property tax rates that would deter ultimately determines
the property tax rates. Is that right. Yeah. The total assessed value.
the total assessed value determines that And really are how much we raise in taxes is kind of out of
our control It raises by 4% every year. It's if like if you have 30 if you raise $38,000 this year,
you can raise 39 30 $40,000 next year but the rate is the levy divided by the The assessed certified
net assessed value
Yeah, right So we need to make sure that we we have we keep growing that certified net assessed value,
right? Yeah. Yeah This is a very Complex question. It's a very very good question. I think that There
are a lot of voices in the room that have things to add to this conversation I am
I think we have to think about growth, but you have to think about costs. I mean, I hear what Dave Raul
was saying. You always have to think about cost associated growth. Growth can raise your assessed value.
Growth can increase your income tax. The well-being of the citizens, what does that mean? Citizens want
low taxes, and also citizens want good services. It's a very complicated balancing act, and I think all of us
Do you want to speak? I really didn't want to get into that. I just wanted also for the public to understand,
you know, where do our revenues come from? Oh, yes. How is that figured? And the income tax, it's only
for people who live in the city limits, right? That's the only income tax we get as part of our government
revenues. Is that right?
As of right now we get income tax from the whole county but it will change to only people within in
city limits in twenty twenty eight. Okay so currently we get a proportion proportion based on our population.
So everybody in the county pays into and then pays into the
Local income tax and that lump sum is is given to us by a percentage of our population But starting
in 2028 only payers who actually live in the city will pay into the city local income tax Okay, so that
does change the the dynamics of who the payers are If there are people who live in Martinsville and
come down here to work their income taxes are going to Morgan County, right? Correct
Correct and conversely if we have somebody who lives in Bloomington but works in Martinsville Their
income taxes are coming to Monroe County, correct? Correct. Okay. Yes. I just want to you know kind
of Help explain to people how how we get these revenues how it's calculated and yes, and I agree It's
it's more complex than like we need to keep growing. Yeah Yeah, that's a whole nother conversation that
is worthy Thank you Yes, thank you for asking
Last question promise the so so just sort of wrapping up all my my questions and this evening is that
if If if it's the case that we're fairly certain that will get more into deficit spending probably than
we have in the past like we were
probably going to spend a bit more than we have. And when we talked about it during budget season, the
budget presentations, you all sighed a sigh of relief when we said, for example, that we didn't want
as many studies or things like that. And you said, yeah, we're happy to cut those things. And then now
we haven't actually cut those things. We found other places to cut.
My question, and I get that this is somewhat open-ended, but why not be more aggressive with our cuts?
If there's still some areas that, at some point, there was some relief to try to cut. Why are we not
being super aggressive with cuts here? It's because cutting things is a domino effect.
Cutting things like a study has a domino effect, and I will say that we were, it was very good for us
to understand that there isn't a huge appetite for more studies, and we'll definitely take that into
consideration in future budgets, but the time between the budget hearing and the budget adoption, we
just didn't feel like was the right time to actually dig into those kinds of cuts, especially for planning
studies. It just, like pulling the thread, sort of pull the string, it can sort of, it can really, would
you like to add anything else?
I think it's a great question and I think if we had more time between the budget hearings and making
that discovery now we might have been able to have those discussions but for now we'd rather put it
in the budget and then not spend it you know look sit down we have more time look at it and say okay
what's the impact of if we cut this study
That is tied to something else in the transportation plan and as a precursor to this other thing. What's
the ripple effect of that? And and I think we all know this but just to say it out loud cutting the
money from the study doesn't necessarily make there be enough money to
by far to do more, which is one of the things I took away from your comments was less study, more building.
But the building is way more expensive. And so cutting the studies won't make it possible to build more.
Yeah. And I think that that's sort of, you know, this is both maybe, it's a pseudo question, you know,
a comment on it. But that question of dependencies I get, right, that it's, you know, you pull this,
and we haven't had the time to track what those dependencies are in short.
But I think something that we should maybe you know consider some type of a doctrine for some of this
a strategy for In the context of our you know, and then also thinking about future revenues and pressures
that we're gonna face You know, I I think that we should
perhaps be ourselves thinking about those dependencies and as they unfurl, saying actually, you know,
we're not gonna touch some of the money that has been budgeted because of the fact that we realize that's
not, you know, super essential right now, even though we have the authority to do it, just sort of thinking
ahead of making sure that we both keeping the powder dry I get and also keeping our flexibility as much
as possible to sort of difficult decisions that we're making ahead. You know, I think that the thing
that I've said throughout these budget hearings is
In the in the cases and and I'm very grateful And I think that we should continue to repeat what you've
said very clearly here And I will continue to repeat this that the city is in a really good position
Financially and even after approving a deficit budget even if we spent that deficit budget We're still
in a good position financially. I think that's fantastic, but I do think that we need a strong Sort
of theory of change of like when you spend deficit and what is deficit spending on?
And I think to your point about dependency, I don't think we've really had the time to really formulate
that. But I think moving forward, it's something that throughout this next year, as we're continuing
to make further transitions in how we're budgeting, et cetera, it would be really good also to come
up with some strong sense of what we're trying to do there.
Yes. Yes. Thank you for. Yes. You echo our concerns. It's great to hear council members voicing you
know you yourself and other council members voicing those kinds of concerns and thoughts. And as you
all know the budget is a is a huge it this is a huge complex budget and we appreciate your interest
and yeah your your thoughts and help on that throughout next year in the future. Thank you.
Any other council member questions? Okay. In that case, we will move to the public comment section.
Controller McClellan, thank you for your presentation. This section constitutes a public hearing held
in accordance with Indiana Code Title 6, Article 1.1, Chapter 17, Section 3. If you are in chambers,
please approach the podium, state your name for the record, and sign in on the sheet.
Seeing none, if you are joining via Zoom, please raise your hand using the Reactions tab or send a message
to the host. We do have an online commenter. I will unmute them. Great, thank you. And online commenter,
please state your name, and you will have up to three minutes to give your comment. Thank you. Yes.
Kevin Keough. And keep in mind, my intention is to add value and also the goal of transparency.
The City of Bloomington's ACFR, the audit report is not for 12-31-24, has not been available for the
council and for the public to look at. And I think it would be of great value when you're discussing
the 2026 budget. Also, Isabel had a question that was answered in the budget book and it's on page
87 is page 12 of the answers, but it even talks about the audit and specifically my concern, especially
after the discussion this evening, is about the completion. The 2023 was completed in the mid-July,
July 17th, and that's a year and a half afterwards, and I noticed in the answer it talks about the audit
is due September 30th, and you know,
I've been an auditor over 40 years, and I've closed a lot of books and done audits. Usually you want
those audits to be timely. And usually when I mean timely, you know, 90 days, 60 to 90 days after year
in, you want them done. You want to close the books, get it behind you.
And it seems the answer said something about a due date of September 30th, which has concerned me. And
I tried to Google it and look it up. And I get conflicting information. And it talks about April 1st,
that being the due date for the audit. So I'd like to see that clear. Plus, again, adding value. I would
really emphasize how closing the books, getting the audit done within a timely period.
And 90 days, I believe, is a timely period. It really helps you when you start preparing this year's
budget and getting prepared for the discussions we're having tonight. And it just cleans things out.
So I'm very concerned about that. And another reason as a member of the public why I'm concerned
And these are actual numbers. My numbers, I know they're correct. My property taxes increased over 20%
last year. It was 20.69%. The three years before that, it averaged over 10.5% each year. So my property,
this is why it's so important and these discussions are so important. This is not sustainable.
And, you know, it's a lifelong citizen of Bloomington. I know you talked about COLA, you know, cost
of living has been four and a half, and this year may be under 3%. Look at these percentages, the property
taxes have been increasing. I know my time's coming up. Thank you so much for this opportunity to present
public comment. Thank you. Do we have any other takers on Zoom? Anyone in chambers?
OK, thank you. That concludes our final public comment period. And now we'll go back to councilmembers
for additional questions and comments. Councilmember Stosberg. I just have a closing comment, I suppose.
Councilmember Saris' comment about studies reminded me of the answer. So in the packet, Councilmember
Piedmont-Smith
asked planning about those corridor studies. She kind of followed up on that. And part of the answer
there made me feel a little bit better about it. Part of the answer was that the corridor studies maintain
relevance for longer than engineering studies and differentiating between an engineering plan and a
corridor study. And also that
once you do the study, then you just have more information with which to budget with. And so in my mind,
in terms of differentiating that and keeping those things in the budget, that answer gave me a lot of
clarity. So I just want to point that out in case folks didn't see that. I also wanted to, I suppose,
speak sadly
Following up about the sanitation needs and it's never pleasant to think about Potential rate increases
and I know we have this water rate increase electrical rates have increased Utilities are It feels like
they're just increasing all over the place multiple times and it's it's really not great but we're also
faced with the reality of an increased cost of doing business and then an expected future of decreased
revenues and
and having to tighten in different places. And so I just wanted to lift that up as something that I'm
cognizant of and that it's really challenging to think about balancing all of those competing forces.
And then the last thing that I wanted to, especially with regard to Mr. Keough's comment about taxes
increasing, is differentiating the difference between our tax rate, which has not particularly increased,
The assessed valuation of our properties and it's the assessed valuation of properties in Bloomington
that has gone up a lot in the last I would say maybe even five years It has gone up a lot my property
taxes the the bottom line number of how much I have to pay It is kind of astounding at how much I was
paying say ten years ago versus how much I'm paying here now
But I also want to point out that the actual tax rate, if you look at your tax bills, is quite low.
And for a long time, our family also held property in Wayne County, Indiana, because that's where we
moved from. And we could not sell our houses there very easily. So I was also paying property tax there.
And my property tax rate for Wayne County, Indiana was twice that as it was here in Monroe County, twice.
But the actual dollar amount I was paying was half.
because the property values in Wayne County were so much lower, are so much lower than property values
in Monroe County. So it is a double-edged sword when your home is worth a lot because then you're paying
more in taxes. But that assessed value is something that we can't control. We can't control that.
as as City Council as the city as Controller McClellan was saying, you know, we only have so much control
over Property taxes and and the rate has stayed pretty stable over the last several years Right about
two ish percent. I think in terms of what goes to city taxes. So Anyway, those are the things that I
wanted to just speak to during this comment time. So thank you very much Thank You councilmember Stasberg
Councilmember Rallo Yes, um, could could I follow up with a question? For controller McClellan Could
could I ask Controller could I could I ask a quick question just as a follow-up because the ACFR that
Mr. Keel referenced Could you could you explain the
the lack of posting and when it will and and what do you have a comment about timeliness of of that
for When we start this mayor thompson's administration in January of 24 the 2022 akfers what we refer
to it had just been completed in december of 2023 And so we have spent the last year and a half catching
up on akfers that haven't been completed timely um, so we
caught up on 23. No, actually the 2021 had just been completed when we
When mayor Thompson took office then last year we completed the 2022 we did the 2023 and we're working
on the 2024 right now So we hope to have the 20 we will have the 2024 done by the end of the year And
then next year we will be on a normal cycle of having those completed by September 30th of the year
And then the April 1st deadline is for there's a there's a smaller financial report due to the state
April 1st, it's called the annual financial report is the AFR. It's a much more smaller It's not as
detailed as the AK for that's the April 1st report and those are have all been completed timely But
I see that on the website Well, hopefully that satisfies mr. Keough. So thank you for that That that's
very good. I just wanted to say Express my appreciation for the 0.7 percent increase in cola
You know We fell behind in the early 20s When inflation was ramping up The administration at that time
did not keep pace. It was a real worry for a lot of us I know that we had to play catch-up and I appreciate
this administration's raising salaries as per the As per the salary study
I appreciate that. We're keeping up with the CPI Also recognizing that you know, we live in a city that's
19% more expensive than most cities in Indiana and 4% More expensive than the national average. So if
that continues pace then we're You know people are challenged in this community financially and we want
to make sure that as a major employer and of course that the employees of the city are compensated so I
Appreciate your your work on that. Thank you Any other comments or final questions In that case I will
entertain a motion Councilmember Stasburg. Thank you I would like to move that the committee of the
whole make a recommendation to the council for the adoption of appropriation ordinance 2025 11 Clerk
Bolton, would you please call the roll?
Yes Stasberg, yes Rosenberger. Yes Sorry, yes Rallo. Yes Piedmont Smith. Yes With the vote of six Oh
that passes and we have come to the conclusion of all of our agenda items on our committee of the whole
meeting so I will entertain a closing motion and
to adjourn we second I turned