As as people are filtering in if if we're gonna go ahead and get this meeting started I'd like to call
this deliberation session of the Bloomington Common Council here on September 10th to order with the
clerk, please call the roll Councilmember here Rallo Hey Matt Smith
Stasberg? Here. Daly? Zulek? Here. Rosenberger? Here. Asari? Here. Great. Thank you so much. I just
realized that I don't have my agenda right in front of me.
So tonight first of all, thank everybody for coming because this is a wonderful crowd in here and I'm
super super excited so in terms of our kind of usual order of meeting stuff the first thing on the agenda
is to go over the agenda summation and So I'm gonna do a brief introduction of what it is that we're
doing here tonight and the purpose Then we're gonna get into these breakout groups that some people
are kind of already in And have some facilitated dialogue with staff and council members. We're gonna
come back as a whole for
some group reporting and debriefing, and then we'll adjourn right around 830. So in terms of my introduction,
let me find it.
All right, so tonight is part one of two deliberation sessions focused on housing needs in Bloomington.
This particular session will focus on sharing your personal experiences related to finding and maintaining
whatever housing you currently have and how your needs are or are not being met. The purpose of the
session this evening is not to debate specific types of housing or housing policies, but to get a better
understanding of what needs are and are not being met with our current housing market
based on the personal experiences of those here. And it is an opportunity for both planning staff and
council members to learn as well as each of you to build understanding with community members who may
not live near you or who may have very different housing needs than you do. Part two is planned for
November 12th and will include a summary of what was heard through this and other related discussions
that are ongoing through the planning department. There will likely be more specific policy proposals
for discussion in November.
So just a couple words about shared expectations and community agreements. First, housing can be a triggering
conversation and so please enter the space as neutrally and non-judgmentally as possible. Facilitator
questions are designed to allow participants to share experiences and all experiences are valuable.
And it is reality that two different people going through the same process will experience it differently
and both of those perspectives matter and have validity.
Second, in terms of shared vocabulary, when considering your neighborhood, it is the place where you
live, work, or play. Whether it's a multi-family structure, an urban block, a suburban subdivision,
or some other space, that is your neighborhood, and the people living near you are your neighbors, and
there are many types of neighborhoods.
Last, as an organizer, and I'm hoping that this goal was met, my goal was to attract a wide diversity
of participants in hopes that many voices and experiences are represented. So I'm really hopeful that
we have that there tonight, and I'm really thrilled that so many people came out to share their experiences.
So as we move into these groups,
First of all, if you have not already added your demographic information over there on the table, there
are some containers to put in puff balls to mark whether you rent or whether you own, and then also
how long you have been in Bloomington, and then there is a big map over there so you can put a pin in
where you live. And the purpose of that is at the end to go, how well did we diversify? Do we have a
good renter to owner? Do we have people who've lived here the full spread of time in Bloomington?
Do we have people from all over Bloomington or mostly in different sectors? So then as we continue this
process in these discussions, we can make deliberate outreach and planning can make deliberate outreach
into population groups that might not be represented here or through their other efforts. So that's
the purpose of that. So if you haven't already done that, please do so. And lastly,
We're gonna have seven small groups for facilitated conversation, and I haven't counted. I think that
the groups ended up with six or seven chairs each. We might need to add some chairs, okay? There's five
groups. There's five groups in here, and there's two out in the hall. And each group will be facilitated
by a city staff member and a council member as a co-facilitation team. And so for this to be a productive
time of sharing, it's also important to try to diversify those inner groups as much as possible too.
hard to say that, right, because just by looking at somebody you don't necessarily know what their housing
needs are. But, for example, if you came with someone with whom you share housing, consider going to
different groups, okay, and also try to disperse yourself so that no group is maybe all younger or all
older, just to kind of do our best in terms of making sure that within those groups we have differences,
because part of this is to share
Different experiences so that we all can get a better grasp of understanding what the different needs
are Yeah, so that is my introduction Oh, no, not quite if you're an online participant this evening
There is a Google form and so now is the moment that hopefully staff is going to share that QR code
online and also a link to that so
so that any online participants can also share their experiences related to housing. There's
not a conversation option available online, but through the forum, you'll have the opportunity to address
the prompts and questions that in-room facilitators are going to be asking. Similarly, if you're in
the room but don't feel comfortable sharing in the small group,
also feel free to use this form instead. So that even if you're in the room and you're like, I don't
know if I wanna share, but I want somebody to know what it is that I'm thinking, go ahead and use that
form and that's fine. At the end of the event, there will also be like a reflections form that people
can fill out too in terms of this event. So there'll be another QR code. And I think that that is my
whole introduction. Okay, so.
Council members, did you all get my email with what group you are? Great, so I think that this is going
one, two, three, is that four over there? That's five over there, four is here, and then six and seven
are out in the hall. So yeah, go to your small groups and write about 755. I'll try to gavel us back
into one big group again. Okay, yes, Council Member Flaherty.
Related to capacity. I guess it looks like we may have more people than chairs allowed within the groups
You mentioned getting more chairs just logistically want to make sure that we create a space for everybody.
So how do we? Ensure that we just Bring a chair with you and just expand the circles So that's it and
I'm not sure that anybody is sitting outside right now in the chairs that are okay. Perfect So that's
it. Just try to you know, distribute that as as best as possible Thank you
One two three four five six seven are in the hall Gosh Yeah, all right. Oh, this is close. Wonderful.
Thank you All right We are on to the debriefing part of this now and so in the debriefing part of this
we need our different groups to report out All right. Yeah. Well, maybe you should have read your email
councilmember. Sorry. I
I know, right? So many emails. So facilitators. There were two facilitators in each group, so hopefully
one of you can volunteer right now to report out just for a couple minutes about similarities or differences
that you heard in your groups and areas of common ground or areas of difference. So who wants to go first?
Go for it. I'm not going to make Group 1 go first. That's so cruel. Group 3 is going to go first. Jamie,
thank you so much. All right. I'm with Group 3. My name is Jamie, and I co-facilitated with Hopi. And
I'll do my best to summarize as concisely as possible. So in terms of how housing is meeting everyone's
need, most people in our group felt that
Housing was meeting their needs for some of the renters We felt maybe like the rent is a little bit
high but also fair relative to other rents that we see around the city It was definitely expressed that
there are different preferences especially for different phases in life, so Some people express that
the house they're in right now is currently meeting their needs but depending on how their life changes
in the future that could change
We talked about yards a little bit. So some people had different preferences Liking a big yard that
they could maintain themselves. Some people didn't like to have a yard that they'd have to maintain.
So that was an interesting Difference or just people like to have the option and then we talked about
the short-term rentals and ad use so as far as short-term rentals we did have a perspective of having
some investors in our group and
And we didn't really hear any negative experiences from people If they maybe only had like one short-term
renter rental property in their neighborhood So there weren't really negative experiences expressed
with that and then as far as ad use there wasn't a ton of firsthand experience with ad use It seemed
like maybe they were too expensive, but it was an interesting option that people wanted to learn more about and
Thank you, who's next? Councilmember Rosenberger? Councilmember Zulek? She had to know who I was. Hello
everyone, thank you for having us.
I was in group six, best group ever. We had realtors, we had builders, we had homeowners, we had renters,
we had Monroe County residents, Bloomington residents, so we got some good stuff.
Everyone had some pretty similar ideals for what they were looking for when they approached housing
So there were some people whose needs were met because they were getting them and some people whose
needs were not met because they weren't and that is all about housing affordability walkability ability
to live near loved ones ability to own a home or
A lot of what we encountered was there was a lot of people who enjoy the Bryant Park neighborhood and
the different neighborhoods near campus where they can walk to work. And unfortunately, the affordable
housing is not necessarily near there, especially if you're looking to buy. And so that was a lot of
what we talked about in terms of what we look for in housing. And then we ran up against a couple issues
in terms of
ad use and just ability to build ad use and then sell them once they're built due to lot sizes, which
is a very complicated issue that I am probably not the best person to explain to you, but we will get
there someday and
Essentially we talked a lot about how we are missing the middle ground housing and that there are a
lot of different people who are looking for around the $300,000 range maybe older folks who are looking
to size down or Younger folks who are looking to buy their first home a lot of them are looking for
the exact same kind of type of housing and that is what Limits it as well. So a lot of it is density
and Thank you
That's my presentation. I'm so glad to see so many of you here Thank You council members who look who's
next Come on up Hi, I'm David Brant as I'm a zoning planner here at the city so we had we had a variety
of different takes on Housing issues in our group. We did have majority homeowners as well as
a couple of renters, but it was majority home owners. And then some of them expressed that they felt
a little bit trapped. Maybe they wanted to get away from crime in their neighborhood or they wanted
to be in a larger house or have more access to sidewalks.
Transit more restaurants or amenities like close by so some of that public infrastructure Is what they
were looking for? and then we also noted that just amongst everyone in the group there was a strong
desire to live within the city So they did they did like their They did like being in the city and wanted
to stay there but when we were talking about moving around to different parts of the city of
price was an issue of finding the right housing type that they wanted at that particular time. So we
discussed kind of a lack of options or lack of stepping stones to the goal of home ownership, if that's
your goal, or to own a different type of home. Maybe that's a single family home in a neighborhood that
has more influence and is able to get those amenities that they want and, you know,
the maintenance of their infrastructure that they would desire at their neighborhood's standards. And
then we talked a little bit about ADUs. People seem pretty open to the ideas of ADUs, both from the
landlord's side and from the renter's side. And then, let's see.
Think I think that about sums it up I apologize if I missed something from our group that wasn't included
in the summary But it's in the notes. So thank you so much Thank you, who's next come on up councilmember
Flaherty I
All right, thank you. Thank you everyone so much for being here this evening. We were group seven out
in the hallway, and thank you to Gabriel for facilitating that group. We had 16 folks, 14 of whom were
homeowners, two renters, also had one apartment and one condo represented among those, but otherwise
all single-family homes. The majority of folks said housing was meeting their needs, a few said it was
not. There were themes of both, I have too much house and I don't have enough house,
right-sizing issues, folks feeling they were under-housed relative to their family's needs. Generally,
appreciation and love for the neighborhoods and the surrounding amenities. I had some shout-outs and
praise for traffic calming that made neighborhoods more bikeable and walkable. Also, improvements in
recent years like along 17th Street, the multi-use path that has really improved neighborhood cohesion,
walkability to transit, et cetera. But some concerns about
And this is kind of where people's minds went on what they liked about their housing. They really kind
of went to the neighborhood is where the discussion went. And concerns that the connectivity did not
always extend beyond the neighborhood, so they felt kind of enclosed, that the arterials were trapping
them in because they weren't safe or comfortable to cross. Let's see. As far as amenities and what people
appreciated additionally, community centers, mixed use,
The ability to be near a school or a trail or a grocery store. Some folks expressed desire for a park
and didn't have that nearby or didn't have any food amenities nearby. They felt they were in a food
desert. So those were some of the areas where folks were expressing desires. Also some discussion of
safety and perceptions of safety both along trails and in neighborhoods.
and so desire for a greater feeling of safety in the neighborhoods. Let's see, with respect to where
folks wish they could live if the neighborhood wasn't meeting their need or wasn't their optimal,
affordability was definitely a barrier to moving to a more desirable place that would be closer to the
types of amenities they wanted. There was fairly widespread agreement that a mixed-use neighborhood
with a diversity of housing types and nearby amenities, walkability,
was highly desirable. Many nods of agreement when folks were expressing that, a desire for accessing
missing middle housing, especially that would be walkable or mixed use and could be an entry point for
them or the next step on the rung for housing. In general, feeling that that doesn't really exist in
Bloomington. We're having a hard time even naming neighborhoods that kind of met that need. Folks were
referring to Renwick as that has some of those things, or maybe neighborhoods close to the downtown.
As far as diversity of housing types, a lot of folks in our group did live in neighborhoods that either
had a diversity of housing types or had diversity very nearby in terms of the housing types. So even
if there weren't apartment buildings in their neighborhood, they were adjacent to it and they appreciated
that. Not exactly a housing typology thing, but some concern about the July to July lease cycle with
rental properties being a real barrier for a lot of folks. When it came to ADUs, I think
As far as those questions, do you support it? About half our group, not support it, but would you consider
it? About half our group would consider building one, about half our group would consider renting one.
I asked a third question about the ownership requirement we have here in Bloomington and whether folks
support that. It was also kind of a mixed answer. There was concerns about resale and alienability of
property. Also concerns about impacts in a college town with a lot of rentals of not having that requirement.
Finally, just briefly on short-term rentals, again, diversity of perspectives here. Some folks thought
it met some specific needs in the Bloomington community, others concerned about it displacing valuable
and limited housing for local residents. I also asked a question about regulation via inspection, whether
that was something we should consider, and most folks felt no, that the rating system in Airbnb is doing
that for us. So, that was our group, thank you.
Good afternoon, everyone. Evening. Our group included renters and homeowners, and the message was clear
amongst us. I think that Bloomington faces lots of pressures on housing and straining families, students,
neighborhoods. Affordability was at the heart of it, of the things that we discussed. Single-family
homes now being out of reach for many, medium home prices, far outpacing income growth, property taxes
doubling since COVID.
Etc One of the things that we spent a lot of time talking about our neighborhood concerns have those
are adding to the pressures lots of investor-owned rentals
changing to the character of blocks. We also talked a little bit that came up questions, sort of these
overlapping questions about encampments and safety concerns, concerns around city projects, et cetera.
So we had a broad, wide-ranging conversation around sort of our interest and needs in housing. We offered
a wide range of solutions and ideas for the future. In terms of housing supply and diversity, people
talked about starter homes,
diversity of houses, condominiums, duplexes, family-friendly rentals, not just student housing, interest
a little bit in density in particular places, though not interest in taller buildings, so some tension
there. Policy tools, we talked about things like land trust, land banks, rental caps, limits on how
many homes can be owned by investors, parking,
permitting questions, particularly for houses without driveways near campus. I think there is more on
the side of people concerned about us building houses without parking minimums, accessible loans to
new people, and even rent control, even though that's illegal. Forum-based zoning was discussed to shape
the look and feel of neighborhoods, loosening restrictions to allow density where it makes sense, and
streamlining the planning process
projects so that the projects aren't delayed for years, sort of raising costs. We talked also about
stronger cooperation between Bloomington, IU, and Ellitsville, thinking sort of of the broader ecosystem
of housing. We talked about short-term rentals, and some participants called for requiring permits and
collecting better data on occupancy, while others expressed concern about property rights. In some,
residents agreed that Bloomington needs more housing, but not just more units
that we need affordable, diverse, well-planned options that are paired with the infrastructure
and partnerships that will allow our community to grow.
while protecting the character of our neighborhoods. And so I'll end just by saying this last point
that Chad GPT suggested, which is that a home is more than four walls. It's the foundation of opportunity,
the wellspring of community, and the promise we make to everyone, to another, that everyone belongs.
Thank you. AI makes everything sound so good. I think we have two groups that still need to present.
Okay, we were group number five and we had a good mix of runners and owners As far as if housing was
meeting the need most owners did say that Their housing was meeting their needs, especially if they
were smaller houses if there were larger houses They felt like maybe it was not meeting their needs
or they would like the opportunity to downsize But they were stuck by golden handcuffs right now with
low interest rates
as far as neighborhood characteristics that they liked Being walkable having a diverse neighborhood
of a mix of rentals and Ownership models really not skewed to one size or one side or the other a careful
balance Making sure that there was access to parks and trails Being close to grocery stores was important
for many in addition
If the neighborhood met the needs generally owners wanted to stay where they were renters for the most
part wanted to live closer to amenities they've been forced to be further out due to the price associated
that they would pay.
As far as the diversity of housing Some neighborhoods had the diversity and some did not the amenities
again That they would like to see would be again being close to the grocery stores being able to walk
or bike Trails gardens that kind of thing Do you have anything that you would like to add?
on the neighborhood side of things just that I think I
those the idea that Neighborhoods were the diversity of housing types and In demographics in a neighborhood
was generally just agreed on that was a strong and that was an amenity and in of itself to have that
that diversity in a in a neighborhood as opposed to you know, we had someone our group who do who didn't
have that and and expressed that as a down of significant downside and
And some of the runners did mention that because they've been forced to live further out they don't
have the opportunity to walk to a grocery store. And we're really wanting to see potentially pharmacies
or other businesses being close by as far as 80 years.
If the lot was big enough we had about a good split where half would be interested In a potential adu
on their lot if they could fit it. Otherwise some had no interest in renting or participating in an
adu And as far as the short-term rental market everyone was pretty Uniform in saying that the current
short-term rentals are skewing our market and are problematic I would just add on the
Generally speaking on the adu question issue in our group There was a lot of disinterest in having anything
to do with it either living one or having one or building one But generally everybody was very supportive
of the idea of adu's and no one had any I remember anyone having any objections to the idea and There
was a discussion about when it was mentioned that 80% of Airbnb's are
The no one lives in the house their whole house Airbnb rentals that may be something akin to ad use
having a requirement that the resident a resident live either in the ad you the owner the property owner
you live in the ad you or the or the main structure that maybe there was some way to have ad use where
Someone was living there. So they weren't unoccupied 90% of the time and
And people kind of got excited about that idea. Maybe some way to do that So it would still service
housing year-round For at least part of the unit part of the structure I would also say that as far
as meeting needs one of the themes that I saw was that when People were happy with the housing type
that they're in right now They also were able to purchase them for 60 or 75 thousand dollars many years
ago and adapted
House to be what they want it to be now currently that's not an option And I think we'd be remiss not
to mention that in our group there was some concern expressed by both renters and homeowners about Crime
and safety generally. I mean it did come up at a couple points in our group discussion and
I'm really glad we didn't have to follow chat GPT. So thank you for that Anna We had a really nice mix
of renters and homeowners we had folks who live downtown quite a few who
Live in walking distance of the downtown and some from farther out We have most people while we kind
of had a little mini crisis of discussion about what exactly does it mean to meet our needs? because
all of us, you know, we can eat and we have the things we need but You know thinking thinking
Largely, you know, maybe it meets our needs now but there we have future needs and future transitions
and life transitions that where we're not totally happy where we're at and so we have folks who you
know own a house because
They kicked out of their condo or got priced out of their condo, I should say, and would prefer to live
in condos, but there's just not many of them. A couple people who prefer a condo. We have folks that
love their single family home and don't want to move, but it's maybe too big for them at this stage
in life. And so they've had to adapt and change to make it work for them, but they still have visions of
bigger changes, more units, bringing more people in. There's a lot of talk about businesses, so just
more small pubs and local businesses to interrupt the solid neighborhood and residential housing, more
places to gather, more third spaces. Housing policy that doesn't focus just on the core neighborhoods
where all the attention and the transit is just
going towards the downtown area, but is more equally spread and other neighborhoods are taken
into consideration more with certain amenities. Folks, a good landlord can make all the difference in
your experience and your housing. We have a renter who would prefer to rent the rest of their life, but
Is going to be an issue and most of the renter all of the renters in the group I believe they're their
house are there the cost of renting goes up every single year So it's just a question of how long is
it going to be till I have to move somewhere else What else do you add let's see oh We love
porches more porches and yes, I think the The key I think in this group and maybe this town and like
chats GPT already summarized is diversity more options And more creativity with housing Thank you all
I just want to give us all a big round of applause right now I
I thank you to the facilitators for facilitating conversations and thank you to all of the participants
who've come today to share stuff. Lastly, I want to give an opportunity for you to share more if there
are individuals out there who thought to themselves, I really want to make sure the whole group hears
this point that didn't quite get in the summary.
And then attached to that there is another Google form if staff could bring that up that is like a reflection
Google form in terms of Sharing your big takeaways from discussion this evening things that you learned
and what do you hope can come from this session? So this would be one for everybody who is in this room
right now I would love it if you would fill this out because that would really help
moving forward in terms of success of how this went, whether you felt like you were able to share the
things that you wanted to share, and then any kind of takeaways. So while you're all doing that, is
there anybody who wants to share anything verbally right now? Come on up, Anna.
We had some shared some shared visions that we want to make sure got on the table is putting together
condo associations or shared living cooperative living situations that are not rentals. So building
equity collectively. Yes. Yeah. I know Bloomington has a little bit of oh sorry. I know Bloomington
has a little bit of co-housing infrastructure. Wow.
I'm usually used to, I know Bloomington has a little bit of a co-housing infrastructure, but it's really
more you're kind of renting a room with a lot of common space. And so you're not building that equity.
I know Chicago has a little bit more of a robust infrastructure for that. It would be interesting if
Bloomington were to try to explore that and see how that might work in a town this size.
Anybody else? Looks like Jeff would like to come forward and individually report out. Not individually,
just to supplement. Just briefly, my plea is for the city, the county, and the university to work together
on some kind of plan together on housing. I think that's really incredibly
Negligent on part of all the different parties that we haven't found a way to do that I'm not putting
blame on anyone, but I just feel that this is something that We don't need it tomorrow But we need to
think about where we want to be in five to ten years and I think all three entities need to get together
and Work collaboratively in a positive forward-looking way and I hope it happens in my lifetime. Thank
you Thank you
Anybody else have individual things that they want to make sure to stay allowed right now? Come on So
I came to IU with Jeff in the 70s I believe Jeff was before me I worked for the city throughout my college
years and I worked at the courthouse for Judge Hill in delinquency prevention kinds of capacity so
I've seen a lot of sides of development and crime and university life and growing with the city and
through PCBs. And so what surprises me, given our education of those who have lived here longer, is
that this crisis didn't happen overnight. And I don't understand where
when the curves and turns took a turn, how someone didn't say, wait a minute, this is going in a wrong
turn. And so as we work together in the future, I'd like to have more older people as part of the mix
who have been in Bloomington and saw a lot of change over the 70s, what worked and what didn't work.
And then I'd like
before it just all started with what are we gonna do next, because it's always let's do, let's do. I
really liked, my major was sociology and anthropology. I'd really like to see a cultural look at how
Bloomington evolved, because a little piece of me doesn't understand, no, a big piece of me, doesn't
understand how it happened, how we could come here
1970 I could rent Sublet an apartment at Grant and 4th Street for $45 a month When I was living on a
dollar 25 an hour In the city, I think was paying one of the better rates But so some things going on
because I could go to the IGA I could buy a can of beans for 15 cents and a loaf of bread
475 and I could live on beans and chips and Bread sandwiches, which are great So I just would like to
know how we got here so that we can decide where Because we don't know where we made mistakes. We're
just gonna keep doing it and doing it again So I'd really like to see how it more of an acknowledgement
of how we got here so we don't make the same mistakes at an important juncture and
when it comes time to decide. And I think we need to figure out when those decision points were, so
we don't do them again. Thank you. Any other, like, come on up. We'll do maybe one more, OK? Because
I don't want to keep you all here all night. Howdy. Am I coming through all right?
Gotcha. Mine's gonna be a rather short comment. It's simply to express the urgency I think that there
is to this and to like magnify that. As somebody who has, I wasn't born in Bloomington. I moved here
closer to 16 or 17, but I've now been living here for about 14 years, I wanna say. And I've noticed
amongst the folks that I went to high school with and the folks that I went to college, there has been a flight.
There are a large number of folks who I went to high school with who have had to move from Bloomington
and a large number of folks who came to college here at IU and loved the place, loved Bloomington, but
could not make a go of it as a place to be a home. And as I look forward and consider the future for
myself and my two little siblings are starting to age out
get to college themselves, I don't know how much longer I will be trying to stick it out here, because
I've been sticking here to see them through that stage of their life, and I don't think they are either.
So I think if we want to keep folks around who are, you know, the city on a practical level is pouring
resources into them through the high school and through, you know,
If we want to keep folks around accessible housing Multi like that that missing middle things like that.
I just I can't see a way forward without that as part of the solution. Thank you Thank you
So I just want to thank everybody for being here again tonight. Please fill out the reflection survey.
And so if you do have something that you're like, oh, I really wish that I could have said that, put
it on there. All of that survey data will ultimately be made available to the public. It is part of
the public record. Those surveys do ask for names, but don't require names.
I think, but any names would be disassociated in terms of public record with comments, just because
I think that that piece of privacy matters. And then lastly, before adjournment, as I said earlier,
November 12th will kind of be part two of this in terms of coming back together to kind of summarize
not just the things that were shared tonight, but also our director of planning has been having kind
of similar meetings
to different groups trying to get similar types of feedback. And so that feedback will end up ultimately
consolidated to some degree with some policy proposal changes. And so November 12th will be a night
that will have some of those summaries and potentially some of those proposal or potential change proposals.
Thank you all again for being here If you did not by the way when you came in get your pin on the map
and your demographic info in there I think that there's still time to do that and we'll make sure that
we have that count facilitators if if you I need all of your notes
Okay, so if you took those notes on your electronic device, you can email those. If you did it on paper
and you feel so led as to put that into an electronic device, I would love that. But if you don't have
time to do that, I guess I will. Or I will maybe have staff help with that. So thank you so much and
we are adjourned.