that I'm gonna go ahead and call this deliberation session of the Bloomington-Cottman Council to order
here on December 10th at 631. Will the clerk please call the roll? Okay, I'm not doing this in the usual
order, so bear with me. Council Member Rosenberger. These are not working here. Fine. Hello, this one works.
Here Here here I got Here daily here Stossburg here Piedmont Smith here Rallo here Flirty here. Okay.
Thank you. I
Thank you so much. As I said tonight we are having a deliberation session. We're going to be discussing
outcome based budgeting and believe it or not twenty twenty seven priorities because municipal budgeting
starts early.
So I want to thank in advance councilmember Piedmont Smith who organized The discussion this evening.
We will discuss outcome based budgeting and the progress so far Various outcomes that we already have
in city plans and really kind of the main goal I think tonight is to try to as a council prioritize
outcomes Which didn't really happen last year because you know, this this is a process We will have
public comment in there and then next steps and then we will adjourn
So I think at this point I'm turning over to councilmember Piedmont Smith Thank you so I do want to
mention I'm chair of the Fiscal committee special committee of council and we did review this Agenda
or the general ideas that went into this agenda tonight, so it wasn't totally flying solo here and
So I just wanted to remind everybody about the context that both the mayor's administration and the
council agreed to move towards an outcome based budgeting process. The council passed a resolution in
June of 2024 regarding this and of course during the budget process for the twenty twenty six budget.
the administration did move towards outcome-based budgeting, sort of an in-between step, which they
call priority-based budgeting. And really the big difference is that compared with how the city budget
was created previously, is that previously we would basically take the budget from the current year
and just tweak things. We need more for this. We need less for that. This costs more now. We need another
staff person, et cetera. With outcome-based budgeting, we look at what outcomes we want to achieve.
Then we back up and look at programs that will get us towards those outcomes. And then we back up further
and look at what those programs cost.
And I know that our Deputy Mayor Gretchen Knapp, who's here, and our Comptroller Jessica McClellan have
been working on evaluating all the programs and putting them in categories so that we can better track
what exactly they cost. But I think one of the big questions at this point is which
programs do we prioritize and to look at what we prioritize we really need to go back to look at the
outcomes that our city plans have said we are all working towards. And since we can't do everything
we also have need to prioritize those outcomes and kind of decide given our limited funding what outcomes
are most important for the community. So hopefully my colleagues all got a chance to take a look at the
packet that came with this for this meeting. Are there any questions before we kind of dive into the
outcomes? Yes. I really appreciate that we're doing this. I also had a lot of structural questions about,
I'll just surface a small one without getting into a lot of detail.
a lot of things that need to change to accomplish our outcomes are not in fact expenditures, they're
policy change, they're legislation and policy change. So that's just an example of a number of structural
issues that inform how we might engage in this exercise. And I'm just getting into the agenda and getting
it pulled up from my file, so apologies if there's like adequate space on the agenda for discussing
that, but I was curious for
the suitability of a topic like that at a session like this and just wanted to get your input as the
person running the meeting. I think that's a really good point. I think that we could probably talk
about that through the course of the meeting as we look at the outcomes that I've collated from our
city plans and we can say OK you know if a majority of council members say this outcome is the most
important. Well is that do we influence that.
just by budget or by policy as well. And kind of we can definitely should consider that once we prioritize
our outcomes. Does that make sense? It does. I worry that my structural questions are going to have
like an impact on the potential utility of the exercise. But I think let's proceed. I'm sorry. I'm always, yeah.
No, no, I think these are all good questions and I think the whole this whole movement towards outcome
based budgeting is necessarily going to be messy. So I think we just need to dig in. Exactly. And if
council member Osari were here I would also ask him if he had anything to add since he was
kind of spearheading the move towards outcome based budgeting. But hopefully he will arrive shortly. Yes.
I'll also add to kind of address that question like to some degree I think like that kind of legislative
or process or policy changes falls under the umbrella of the effective governance. What's that bucket
called high performing government. And so that could be that kind of idea like if something might take
a lot of legislation and go well if that's like how much time is that going to take because time ends
up being say like staff hours and so like prioritizing that as part of staff hours under
high-performing government might be, depending on what it is, a pathway. I'm at a little bit of a loss
right now as chair of this meeting, whether or not Councilmember Piedmont-Smith should be chair or should
be kind of recognized as chair right now because she's organizing this discussion. So Councilmember
Piedmont-Smith, do you want to just keep on going? Not necessarily.
I mean, I think it's, I shared my game plan with you also. President Stossberg, if you want to go through
it, that would be perfectly fine with me. Okay, well, that was maybe the context, which is part A in
the game plan, which is page three of our packet tonight. Would you agree? Yes. Great.
Part B is outcomes and city plans. And so Council Member Piedmont-Smith made a list in the packet and
has two discussion questions here. Does everybody, is everybody interested in adding an environment
category or bucket? And then also, I'll give a little bit more context to this since I'm on fiscal committee
too, is should we be open to adding to the outcomes listed in these three city plans?
You know so how should we add outcomes basically like we kind of started with the plans because they
were established documents of the city. But are there other outcomes that we should consider. Are there
other plans or studies we should consider. How should we consider those things. Councilmember Piedmont
Smith what do you want to start with. Well I guess I would like to start with the summary of outcomes
that I've drawn from
The three plans listed, the Comprehensive Plan, the Climate Action Plan, and the Safe Streets for All
Action Plan. That last one basically just has one outcome to reduce deaths and serious accidents to
zero. So I guess I'd like to get some feedback whether looking at these, where I've categorized the
outcomes is appropriate.
And I did assume we would add environment. But if you feel like we should distribute the environment,
ones among the other existing six categories, you can speak up about that as well. And just want to
get feedback. I don't want to assume that I have done all of this accurately. I did my best. Yeah, why
don't we speak to the environment question first? Does that work for people? How do people feel about
adding environment as a category?
Council Member Daly? Yes. Anybody else? Council Member Zulek? I'm in favor of this as well, and I hear
from a lot of my younger residents and constituents that the environment is a very strong priority for
them. And so definitely on behalf of District 6, I vote yes. OK. Other comments about adding? Council
Member Aralo? Are my mics not always on?
Yes, to me, it's implicit in human flourishing to have attention to the environment. And it, of course,
appears it is explicit in our comprehensive plan, sustainability action plan, climate action plan. So
I think it should be included as its own topic. And I appreciate Council Member Piedmont-Smith describing
all of those categories within the proposed new category.
topics, I should say, or goals. Councilmember Flaherty? Yeah, so I'll try to bring in some more systems
questions where relevant. And I think here's one. Sure, we can have environment as a category, if we're
in categories. I must say, and I know I wasn't involved in the groundwork that did that this year, but
I didn't find much usefulness for the buckets of categorization in the priority-based budget framework
this year.
It felt like a pretty arbitrary exercise. And I actually felt like I had less transparency and visibility
into the budget than ever before. Because we used to use a process where at least departments set goals
for themselves and reported on those goals every year. There was actually a public dashboard with all
those goals. I think that wasn't always tied well enough to our city plans. And so I think there were
some shortcomings from an outcome-based framework with that old approach.
It's just an example. I found that more useful as a council member than simply saying the transportation
budget and this percentage of the public works budget and this whatever, you know, is transportation
category. Like I just didn't find much value and that's I guess I'm challenging the, or the assumption
that we want buckets of, you know, six or seven, eight broad categories of outcomes or goals. I guess
my question would be like to what end? Like is it serving us?
Not to like, sorry, I feel like I have a lot of cold water kind of suggestions tonight, but again, I
really do appreciate all the work that's gone into it and the work of the committee this year to try
something new and to, you know, to, yeah, grapple seriously with the question of what it would mean
to have an outcome-based budgeting system that we're all buttoned to.
I don't know. The fiscal committee has talked a little bit about that bucket thing and I don't know
at this point if Councilmember Piedmont-Smith or Rallo or I who are all on that committee or Deputy
Mayor Knapp or Comptroller McClellan might want to come to talk a little bit to that question that you
have because the short answer is it was kind of like step one and the usefulness might come more at
steps two or three and there wasn't time this year to do that.
Deputy Mayor is kind of creeping up to the table. So why don't you go ahead and talk about that a little
bit in terms of how you see the future of these buckets. And while you're doing it, my question about
the environmental, the environment bucket is do you think, and this might be Controller McClellan, I
kind of asked her this at fiscal committee, but maybe you guys have talked about it since, whether we
could easily put things into an environment category
because they're so directly related to that. So for the record, Deputy Mayor Gretchen Knapp, the way
the accounting software is set up, you do have to have a top-level category. So there is value within
the process that we have to follow as a whole to have those top-level categories. The data that we all
really want to see and that we couldn't get to in time this year was the more detailed
numbers by program because and i've said it before but i'll just keep saying it because it's complicated
um when we go through this process in order to be able to say uh we've spent x dollars on um updating
um green energy stuff in the building for example for city hall we have to allocate every single dollar
that the city spends to a
into a category and so that's why we had all these annoying questions about how granular do you want
to be. So it's completely possible to add a category for climate and in fact because ESD has sort of
three different areas, the controller did already set up their budget this year with a new split so
that they could more easily track what they're spending in terms of the arts,
small business and long-term economic development and climate and transportation demand management.
So there's kind of a natural process for that has already started. But those big buckets are still valuable
because as we do go into the more granular work, there has to be within the program software a bigger
bucket. And so that's still helpful in terms of creating a dashboard from the data that we ultimately
get out of that system.
It doesn't mean that we can't have you know many finer points within that but we do need big buckets
to start so to kind of speak maybe if I'm paraphrasing councilmember Flaherty is like concern like systematic
concern like what what kind of because I would also agree like just having those big categories
Felt a little bit empty compared to say establish goals for departments, but what could we? expect to
see in the future in terms of those budget presentations and and meeting categories and potentially
other more granular goals and
I think it's a great question, and I think it in part depends on how granular you want to be. And my
observation is that each of us has issues that we want to be very granular about and other issues that
we're maybe not as interested in being granular about for whatever reason, more administrative areas
or things that just aren't passion projects. But the goal has always been to get to measurable outcomes
and goals. The problem is that the work it takes to put
to go through and say for every dollar that you're spending, exactly how are you categorizing that and
what is the program and if you're parks, you have, you know, your youth programs, is youth programs
one category or do you treat it more like CFRD, which thinks of things in terms of individual events
and themes that they work through. So the time that staff spend doing that is time that goes away from
writing extensive, you know, narratives about what they're doing, which is why we were so short on narrative
this year, is that we put so much time into trying to learn the software and get started with it. So,
you know, once we know what the program areas are that we want to track, then it's much easier to say
what is the goal for that. And of course, for most work that staff do, they already have goals. This
will just be a way of, you know,
capturing some of the things that we already do that may be invisible to all of us, and then making
sure that the things that matter most to us are definitely visible to all of us that we may not have
a name for right now. Council Member Flaherty, just that. Small clarifying question, which is, are the
tags mutually exclusive? You have to pick one and you can't have two applied to that thing?
The way I, and I've, it's been a minute since I looked at the software, but my memory is that there
was a top level and then a secondary level, so yeah, you would probably,
you know, in order to be able to say we're spending X on this area, it can only be assigned to one area
or another. Got it. Even though obviously there's lots of overlap. I could offer a brief reflection
on what I heard if you'd like, which is just I'm not certain that it would be useful for me to know
that we spend $473,000 on X, you know, activities at like a, you know, drilled down granular level.
in the context of outcome-based budgeting. I think I do care about the dollars and cents to a degree.
I more care about are we funding and doing the activities, the actions, and the outputs that we, to
the best of our good faith ability, believe are going to lead to the outcomes in sort of a logic model
framework. OK, here's the outcome we want. Here's a set of actions that we use staff expertise and consultant
expertise to develop to try to get to that outcome.
are we doing those things? And I think we're gonna talk about that a little bit more as we talk about
like adding outcomes and what it looks like. But I guess it seems relevant to this tagging question
because I very much don't want to have like make work for staff on tagging all the things. I'm curious
for other council members perspective around the utility of like an actual specific dollar figure for
X as opposed to or in contrast to just being able to say
these are the actions that we are taking that directly support X outcome. And they are funded, you know,
at staff time or whatever it is, like. Council Member Piedmont-Smith. Yeah, I think both are important
because, so the question, are we funding and taking the actions that we believe will lead to the outcomes
we want, right? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
The proof is then, OK, we have this program, which we think is going to lead to the outcomes we want.
But we need some measure of whether it really does. And we also need to know how much money we put into
that program, and then do a cost benefit analysis. It's like, OK, we're getting positive outcomes for
like 20 families, but we're putting in $100,000. So I think both what you just said is important, but
also understanding what
Inputs we give as far as time and money. Yeah, and time is money. I understood. I agree Actually for
those coming in there was another meeting so we've just gained another couple council members. We're
kind of discussing our six buckets of outcomes the proposal of adding environments as a seventh and
also just generally
Kind of the general question of the usefulness of buckets and how detailed we want to be about it and
understand a little bit more about the the Accounting system and how that plays into it. So Council
member Olu Yeah, my question for the deputy mayor is It kind of broadly speaking the priority based
viewpoint versus the outcomes based which is we've
made explicit here in this document. The outcome-based is largely based upon guiding documents, which
I think are very important. They were community-derived, spent a lot of time and money developing these.
They were adopted by council, supported by the previous administration. Are these documents that you're
utilizing for, okay, I just wanted to get to that basic
Because, I mean, every, you know, you're a relatively new administration. You have your own priorities
too. But, you know. We're not in the business of reinventing the wheel in areas that we've hired and
appointed people, you know.
to bring their expertise to bear and they and their teams are continuing to use those documents as they
always have. I think we do have areas in the city where there are not guiding documents. ESD doesn't
have guiding documents per se. CFRD doesn't have guiding documents in the same way that
Transportation and some other areas have have documents. So there are gray areas in there, but no one
is ignoring any of those plans I've read them all yeah, and so I'm aware of them and you know, I wasn't
implying that no No, I I'm just saying there I want to reassure everyone that no one has abandoned those
plans and if I can just say one more thing and then if you don't mind I'll take a seat unless you need
me again, but
to Council Member Flaherty's point. I think what you're wanting to see is how much are we spending on
something and is it really achieving that goal? Something to understand about our accounting program
the way it currently works without this overlay is that there's no way of tracking a program's or an
outcome's expenses except by a spreadsheet. All it tracks is general categories of spending like printing or
personnel or whatever so if we want to in any variation be able to say What are we spending on XYZ outcome?
Output you know anything we do have to add a layer and spend the time to put that money in and whether
we can get in this
new cycle to getting all of those numbers in I imagine that we will all have a learning curve once we
see the detail of like oh we're spending that much on fill in the blank or you know wait we only spend
we don't spend anything on this other thing whatever that might be. So I don't imagine that we're going
to all be 100 percent satisfied with the budget this time but we should make a lot more progress in
terms of being able to see real numbers and have a more meaningful conversation.
At least for now, I mean, I don't know how much you might end up having to walk back and forth this
evening, but you'll get your steps in Are there other comments from anybody about the utility of adding
a bucket for environment or How we're using those categories Councilmember sorry
We should. It helps to track things. It helps because these conversations, as we're realizing, you sort
of set them. They seed future conversations. And so it is an area that certainly all of us individually
care about a lot. It's something that all of our constituents care about an awful lot. It'll help us
to be very clear about how we're operationalizing plans that exist that are relevant to environment.
So I would be a very strong yes for that.
Thank you. And thank you to Deputy Mayor Knapp for coming up and working some things out with us. I
think there are multiple ways to do it, and I think that whatever way we choose is fine, but when we
think about input versus output, I do think that, especially as we are in this multiple-year process
of getting to the outcomes-based budgeting, that understanding our capability for input would
will be able to help us more easily identify what we're capable of in terms of providing outputs and
so what those goals are and the specific numbers because we can't, I don't think we can make a proper
goal setting chart until we fully understand what our inputs are. Can I ask for clarification?
Yes like so so specifically like inputs being like our revenues and our priorities being like like actually
prioritizing our buckets. I'm referring to the the recent budgets that we've had and how the numbers
were sorted out. I think that it will be helpful moving forward to understand how that was decided for
next year if that makes sense.
Any other thoughts on this question. Yeah. I was getting at I'm sorry. I don't know. Like do you mean
how the initial budgets from this year like however much was in the different departments. Yeah I do
think I do think it was helpful just moving forward. So now that we have a baseline we can kind of figure out what
What we're going to do next year now Like in terms of what buckets we might want to switch to get closer
to those outcomes Councilmember Flaherty, thanks that was helpful input input About
where we're trying to get and how that might serve us. I agree there will be surprising outcomes and
I think it will have some utility. I think what I'm grappling with is to make sure it's a juice is worth
the squeeze on the thing. And yes, metrics and quantitative data are helpful to the extent that they
are telling you the thing you want to know. And I worry a little bit, there's a lot of actions that,
let's just talk about a multi-use path on a high crash corridor.
That is mitigating emissions, because it is helping support mode shift through infrastructure investments.
It's increasing safety, trying to reduce deaths on our streets and serious injuries. It might involve
narrowing a street, which allows for more tree canopy. There are other, it might increase the viability
of a business there. There's economic development components. Just knowing enough about our plans and
the types of things we do. And you could say there's a main thing, or you can pick one.
I worry about us reading too much into, we're spending X here and only Y here when you've got that type
of dynamic, cross-cutting almost anything we could do. So that's it. Councilmember Asari. And I think
to that point as well, to the point that both of you are making, it is, and I think we've raised this
in multiple other instances, is that thinking that way is a challenge as well, because not all that
we might have
goals that are of equal priority to us, but they're not all gonna cost the same, and so it also sort
of changes. We might be doing a lot of things under a particular bucket, but it's because they're all
cheap things. And then just as a follow-up to that, I think one of the reasons, though, why I'm particularly
interested in having sort of a robust set of buckets, and particularly around something that we sort
of in a narrative fashion agree on,
is because I think, and I'll just say it and please disagree with me if I'm totally wrong or off base
or if you guys don't feel this way, but my feeling is that we have a lot of plans. Some of, you know,
it's kind of a contested question, because some of them are like real plans, some of them are unofficial
plans, et cetera. I think that was sort of the tail end of what Deputy Mayor was saying. But my feeling,
sitting there often is that we kind of, not we, but generally when people are presenting to us, they
kind of pick things, sort of do this like, oh yeah, that's in the whatever plan, and they sort of attach
it to something they wanted to do anyways. And I'd like to think about one of my personal
goals for advocating so much for outcome-based thinking, even just, is to get us thinking the other
way around, that it's not like, oh, I want to do this thing, and then you go, well, where can I find
a plan that supports it, but that we say, well, we went through this long process of coming up with
these plans that have this clear set of goals and activities and outcomes, and that we follow them,
and that we can show, and maybe some of them, we can have the clear conversations, like, yeah, you know,
we don't think we need to do that, or we can think of better ideas now, great, fine. But I think that
there needs to be that clear set of thinking, not just appending nice words from plans onto ideas and
programs that we're already pursuing. And to wrap that up, I think that by having a category, I think
that's the value of these categories, is it does sort of give us a focal point for that conversation
so that we keep having it and keep having it.
Yeah, thank you. I want to second both of those concepts, that idea of starting with the outcome and
then doing something that supports the outcome instead of doing something that you want to do and then
figuring out what it supports and then also being really, I don't know, deliberate, careful, conscientious
about how we categorize things, understanding that things fall into so many categories at the same time
as I think based on
At the time that council member Piedmont Smith allocated, she put about 20 minutes into talking about
these outcomes. I think nobody said that environment should not be added. So environment is the seventh
bucket, sounds good over here. And then perhaps we need to shift into part C, which is an activity.
that might help further our conversations about prioritizing. Does that work for folks. Councilmember
Piedmont Smith do you want to talk about what it is that we're supposed to do. OK. So I didn't have
time to write the categories on these posted sheets but I will do that real quick. And the idea is for
each council member to grab a post it note and a pen or some more.
Sharpie and write down for each category What your top three? What you think are the top three most
important outcomes And if you could only think of one or two that's fine, but right, you know one two
and three if you do multiple for each category and your initials so that we know who it is and
Stick them in the categories on those sheets and then after we've had some time to do that The plan
is to come back and look at the sheets one by one and see where we might coalesce around prioritizing
certain outcomes in each category and I would like to go on the record here and say that I prepared
for an activity that was different and I clearly did not understand
Yeah, I think I did the homework wrong too. Are we allowed to work together if we need to? Sure. OK,
great. Councilmember Flaherty? Are the things we are writing down supposed to be verbatim what is in
pages seven through nine of the last four pages of the packet? Here's an example. The quantity and quality
of green space within the community has increased. If that's one of my top three priorities, I would
write that sentence down and put it up there. Well, I think you could shorten it and just say green space.
OK. OK. But what if there's multiple things that speak to green space? So if we're trying to say, this
is a set of outcomes that are in our packet, and those are the set of outcomes that we're choosing from
for this exercise? Yes. OK. But what if we have other outcomes? In the previous part of tonight's agenda,
we were supposed to talk about, and we don't, you know,
We can we can go back and do this too. We're supposed to talk about are there things that are not on
this list that should be included and then on what basis should they be included. So they're not in
the comprehensive plan of the climate action plan. Yeah. So where did you get this and should we include
it. Now we could certainly do that later and redo this exercise or redo some version of this if we want
to just move ahead. But yeah I don't think we have to be limited to these in general but
For this exercise, I wanted us to have some agreement that it's not just an outcome that we're taking
from the sky and writing down. It's something that's in our plans. OK, so understanding that, I will
once again say I definitely did my homework wrong. Do we want to go back to the prior section B, and
are there particular outcomes that anybody wants to add
the list that councilmember Piedmont Smith started for us Councilmember Flaherty, what do you want to
add it? Where do you want to put it? So I'm not gonna answer that directly. It's my answer like I think
it's already been brought up at least by the mayor and we're sorry that We hit there's an unevenness
to where we have formal city plans Which I would characterize as plans that went through a community
process driven by administration and had formal adoption or approval of some count by the City Council
that's occupying
a portion of the pie, you know? And in the other areas, we don't have that. And it's something I raised
in last year's budgeting sessions when the administration was coming forward with priority action plans.
And I asked repeatedly, how's the council going to be involved? Are these going to be approved? The
answers were not really a no. And those are mayoral priorities. And that's fine. The mayor can have
priorities. I think we run into limits about being able to use those priorities for
this purpose because they're not in fact, they haven't gone through the process of what the COMP plan
did or what the climate action plan or the transportation plan has. So I think if we want to do this
holistically, like it's, I mean we can do the exercise that's prescribed for us tonight, I just think
we need to recognize its limits. And if we want to approach outcome-based budgeting holistically, we
need to have both a confronting of the fact that there's whole areas of city government for which we
don't have,
Formal city plans and maybe develop them and then second which is that these plans that we have even
Warrant all designed using the same framework Which I think is reflected in the fact that the safe streets
for all action plan has one outcome and that the transportation plan has none I wouldn't characterize
either of those plans that way at all. Actually, I would say that Implementing a shared street design
on Kirkwood is it is you know an outcome or if you want to go farther downstream from that that
a vibrant, like maybe it wasn't stated in the right language, that a vibrant downtown connector between
Sample Gates and the square in a pedestrian street plaza enhances economic vitality, safety, blah, blah,
blah. So none of these plans were designed necessarily with outcome-based budgeting in mind, nor were
they designed to interlock consistently with one another. And so that's the other major structural challenge
to using the existing plans
verbatim to Do like-for-like analysis of priority outcomes? Okay, that's myself box I Mean I think we
can We can go one of several directions here we could just use the The outcomes that I've summarized
in the packet as a
a guideline and come up with separate outcomes that we can defend through various ways, if asked, and
carry on with the exercise. Or we can take a step back, not to the exercise, do it another time perhaps,
and talk about areas where we don't have plans. I mean, clearly public safety, there's no plan. So I
wrote down some
I would want to see but you know, it's it's nothing that we've all agreed upon so Either way, I don't
know what the will of the majority is You said that we when you were listening it said to qs speaking
to your microphone Sorry that you when you said that we can defend Does that have a light? It's on yeah,
it's on we can hear you that we can defend
You know our outcome priority some you were you were referring to the ones that have plans that we can
point to that were community developed based by Well since we don't have a plan for everything
as councilmember Flaherty said We might consider just adding outcomes but we don't want to just add
them willy-nilly, you know, you want we want to say well, I
my constituents really care about this, and I've heard this, or the community survey has indicated this,
and therefore I'm putting this in. You know, not just, well, I really like goats, and so I'm gonna put
that in. Yeah, I just wanted clarification on what you meant by defense or defend. Yeah, I didn't mean
like put up your dukes. Like we had an ideological bent towards something that's not what you meant
by defend. You don't have to defend your,
Your priority that way if it's if you just acknowledge that it's a personal priority as opposed to something
that's laid out in a community-driven Generated plan I get I guess so. Okay, I mean Right, I mean I
think that there can be space for personal priorities, but if we're gonna count them as I
kind of an outcome that we as the council agree on, I think then you have to basically like defend or
convince us all that it's like, that it deserves to be on the list. I think that we have two options
right now on how to proceed. One is to proceed with council member Piedmont-Smith's activity with the
list that has been provided with us. And then maybe the second option is to go through these buckets
one at a time and add outcomes.
In that defense kind of you know, like where are we getting the outcome? What are people prepared for
and interested to do right now? Councilmember sorry Why don't you do the second why don't we do the
second thing first and then time permitting do the first thing? All right, great Let's do housing and
homelessness first. I feel like we need to have somebody help take notes so that then if we add a
outcomes Yeah, yeah, we can go ahead and and Make a make a sheet. Well, let's just have one sheet for
each for each bucket. So let's start with housing and homelessness It's just housing and homelessness
Because affordable housing would be would be a piece of housing overall so I
Underneath this category, we have A, B, and C, so we can start our list up there on the board with D,
and then maybe our packet, our packet can get amended later on to include all these. So we have, for
the public at home who might not be looking at the packet, increase the range of affordable housing
options that are universally designed and environmentally sustainable from, I think that's the comp plan.
Be improved access of neighborhood housing to community amenities employment and essential services
and then see increased diversity within neighborhoods and all of those look to be in chapter five of
the comp plan council members who look what would you like to add to that well Sorry, I have a question
first and then potentially in question when we say in see increased diversity within neighborhoods Are
we talking about people or are we talking about housing stock? Does anybody have the comp plan
Okay, that would be helpful to clarify Okay, um, how about Who wants to look that up? I I'll look that
up real quick. Okay, well we continue on As long as as long as C is discussing housing stock and
I don't have anything to add Councilmember sorry, I would add something along the lines of increasing
the How long how quickly people can get permits Making it no I made that sound like I want to make it
take longer the other way around making making building things here faster or something like that
easier. Increasing the ease of permitting or something. Is that an outcome? I mean, I would think that
the outcome. We can do semantics later. But I don't know. I guess that's a good important question.
Do we want to spend a lot of time right now talking? Because I agree that it's not
eloquent way of saying it I think that there's it needs to be measurable needs to be like a lot of things
that we need to Go through but I'm just saying generally speaking. That's the area in which I'd like
to see some change Sure, but if we want to have the conversation about like how would you exactly phrase
it we should have I guess I feel like the point of that is to get more houses built and
and so the outcome is to get more houses built and a way to get that housing. Reduce time to build or
approval is an outcome. Yeah, I'm particularly interested in the time to approval. Can we reduce time
to approval then up there instead of permitting time? Potentially the outcome could be that local developers
are able to feasibly make the investment.
future properties we hear We hear all the times that local developers can't make that investment because
of the time that it takes to just be approved for the permitting process Okay, what what was
that councilmember Rosenberger I
Added conditional use is one of the reasons that time and money is added to press It causes delay Okay
councilmember Rallo I think that that topic deserves a debate because I'm I'm not I'm not in favor of
just expediting development and with the idea that the outcome is going to be a community good and
I think that there are ways to achieve that. For instance, the South Bend model of having a pallet of
housing types and saying, you know, if you choose one of these, we can expedite it. But I'm very weary
of seeing buildings go up that are frankly unesthetic and shoddily designed. And I loathe the idea of
Reproducing that just under the banner of this is going to yield housing for people cheaper housing
Not sure that's going to occur but anyway, so it deserves a deeper discussion Councilmember Piedmont
Smith, do you have an answer to council members who looks original question? I
Yes. So the outcome increased diversity within neighborhoods is both about types of housing and people
because it has indicators such as neighborhood diversity index to view changes in racial and ethnic
diversity in neighborhoods over time. It also has ratio of ownership to rental units by neighborhood
and other things. So and then I also had something I wanted to add.
Okay, should we keep going on the the question the doctor that Councilmember Rallo brought up? About
maybe phrasing of I feel like it's phrasing of the outcome versus the way to get to the outcome Councilmember
sorry, I would just say that I think I think that that's that's a I agree with the with the concern
And to me it's a question of two different, there's two different toolkits question. We can address
that issue separate from the budget. But if the, I think to me the test here is if the planning department,
if the mayor's office came and said hey, we'd like to invest in another position in planning so that
we can speed up the times that we can get approvals of things that are already in the UDO, like that
may be something we would support.
If they said, hey, we're going to invest in more technology so that we can raise how quickly we're able
to approve things that are already approved within the UDO, that might be something we support. So it's
a slightly different question. I think it's a valid concern. It's one that I share. I'm really interested
in exploring. But I think that it's a separate question than the budgetary priority of, can we make
it easier to
Do things that we want to see done in the city? Does that address comes over Rollo your concern in terms
of That is of as an outcome, even if it's not perfectly framed right now. Yeah, that helps Okay, comes
my repeat month Smith. You said that you had something that you wanted to add as well And then I'll
go over to councilmember Rosemarger. I Wanted to add make homelessness brief rare and non repeating That's
from directly from the heading home plan. Does anybody want to challenge or ask Councilmember Piedmont-Smith
to defend her added outcome? I think I have a similar reflection to what was just being discussed a
little bit, and I sort of piped in from over here.
Activities and outputs and indicators that might be like leading measures of achieving something later
There are also outcomes that we might frame as near-term medium-term long-term outcomes sometimes in
logic models You see the long-term outcomes framed as impact. I think what councilmember Piedmont Smith
just stated is probably in that like Impact category zero deaths on our street by 2039 might be another and
Well, I agree that those are great visioning impacts. I think we're going to have to deal with that
maybe isn't the most useful in the end for all the things. I don't know. I mean, it is useful. It is
useful as the set of priorities. Maybe impact type big outcomes are long range outcomes are the best
thing to have an overarching vision. But I guess I feel like there's often a disconnect between the
thing we say we're trying to achieve and then our ability to implement
the actions and achieve the near-term milestones and outcomes, potentially, like reduced permitting
time, right? That's a shorter-term outcome, more discreet, and often we struggle to draw the connection
and then actually do the short-term things, and when we're talking about annual budgeting cycles, yes,
the grand vision's still important, we need to understand it, but we're gonna need
So that's not like a, you know, vote against what it is. Well, just have very much support. I'm just,
again, kind of reflecting on like from a systems perspective, like what is it that we actually need
to be able to like operationalize this? Yeah. Okay. Can I maybe bring something in from fiscal committee
that I feel like what, especially Councilmember Flaherty, what you just said and that idea of
outcomes that are long range or short range. I mean, I feel like this is like layers of an onion or
like a thought tree or something where it's like we could put lots of things underneath these outcomes.
So maybe there can be more outcomes underneath that one.
And whereas the permitting thing might be underneath something else, but I'm not sure that we have the
capacity tonight to nest that, but I'm kind of saying it as back from fiscal committee, because I feel
like I've heard both our controller and our deputy mayor talk about that nesting and that that's something
that staff is like doing right now, trying to figure out some of those sorts of things.
I think it would be maybe the best use of our time to just put the outcomes up there, whether they're
short term or whether they're long term, is if we can agree as a body. Yeah, it should go up there.
I don't challenge that it's legitimate, even if it might be a longer term versus a shorter term. Can
I triangulate on that? To triangulate on that, because I think that's exactly right, hits the nail on
the head to me. But just to think about it, I mean,
Because we're in one year cycles, there is some benefit in us knowing, to use the metaphorical language,
our North Star is making homelessness rare, brief, non-repeating. What is in our budget that's going
towards addressing homelessness? And then on a year by year basis, now you go,
hey, OK, if we're going to continue funding these things, are we seeing a reduction in the homeless
population? And so when you have the long-term goal, it is actually really helpful for us, because later
we'll start talking about there's different mechanisms by which it's not just an up-down conversation.
Some of it's like, yeah, we continue that. We want to enhance that funding. We might find, hey, this
is actually doing well, but we want to raise that by 10x that this year, because it's going so well
in years ahead.
And so it is useful to sort of tie those rather to the big thing so we don't get Yeah, so I mean because
otherwise we'll end up setting ourselves goals like, you know reduce homelessness by one person or something
like that And that's worth a million dollars or right? Yeah, I mean, absolutely I just don't think we
have the capacity for that. Yeah, we don't do it today Yeah, I'm just saying because I think it was
such an important point that we shouldn't that's sort of to to finger. Yeah Okay councilmember Rosenberg.
I said I go back to you
Something to add up here. This is about permitting so like an hour ago My thought was I thought like
the bigger Outcome is like more people talk about more having a more predictable process. So whether
that is Ready-made homes or easier permitting, you know, I
Those are just two of the things to make a more predictable process. So if somebody knows they're going
to be asking for all these variances, the predictability of that is you're not going to get to do this
kind of thing, right? But then if you're building in our code, then it's most likely you are. So I feel
like it's about predictability is a bigger word for it. Do you want to add that word up there? You have
the marker, so I think you have the power.
Other things to add to the housing and homelessness category councilmember daily Better coordinated
homeless outreach response Wraparound services that type of stuff Does anybody want to ask councilmember
daily to defend her position on that comes member Allah could she expound on that? What is that?
What does that entail wrap-around services and You know all sorts of social services that go along with
trying to get people housed So coordinated wraparound services services for unhoused. Yeah Yeah for
sure If the mic didn't pick it up council members who look at it including preventative services. Yes.
Thank you. I
Coordinated not necessarily increased preventative and wraparound Homeless response services Other thoughts
on that one Okay, other ideas for housing and homelessness outcomes
I'll say just because in the ideating stage but increasing increasing numbers of temporary shelter or
something like that something along those lines beds, okay temporary sheltering options for unhoused
I Feel like both of those might be subcategories under making homeless brief
Sure rare and non repeating and I'm Yeah Another one count councilmember Rosenberger. Oh, yeah, please
go I would like to say I sometimes have to re scroll so There is improved access of neighborhood housing
to amenities, but the other side I think is like transit oriented development. So we are focusing our
density on
areas where people can more easily get around walking or on a bus and then yes transit. So I think it's
different than like this one feels like one B to me feels like bringing amenities to communities where
I think we should you know increase our density around amenities. Transit oriented development walkable
neighborhoods you know anybody. So so basically instead of
B seems to imply expanding amenities amenities as opposed to putting housing around amenities. Yes.
Second I think that that could be I think that B could be both could include both of those things but
that maybe a subset under B would be those two different options. But I don't know.
Is different do you want to add it as its own thing? I think you have the marker. I think whoever whoever
volunteers to take the notes has All right, any other burning housing and homelessness ones or can we
move on to high-performing government? Councilmember sorry This is context dependent so it's not it's
maybe not as um
write it on the board. Yeah, I don't know. You guys decide what you want to do with it. But something
along the lines of Hopewell Summit, seeing those make progress should be a thing in our budget. Oh.
Well, I think that that's the, yeah.
I'm sorry, I said it might be a little too specific. Yeah, maybe that's too specific is exactly the
point I was saying before I said it. But maybe that just falls under A already. I would actually argue
that that's not too specific, especially if we're talking about goals for 2027. Maybe it could fall
underneath any of a number of things. But framing it almost like,
continuing development pace of Already planned projects or something like that or follow through maybe
follow through on already planned projects Yeah, go ahead and add it comes member Rosenberger Follow
through on already planned projects and then specifically it's hope well and summit and
And then we're gonna move to high-performing government. Would somebody else like to take the notes
for high-performing government? Or Councilmember Rosenberger, do you like having the, okay. Thank you,
Councilmember Piedmont-Smith. So under high-performing government, we have four items. We have engagement
processes are inclusive and representative. Community engagement is strong. Responding to the results
from the community survey
Those three were from the comprehensive plan and then last one is from the climate action plan new financing
Mechanisms are achieved to fund city climate action plan implementation Councilmember sorry, would you
like to Thank you does anybody have anything to add to high-performing governance Councilmember Flaherty
I think I'm
actually this system and in particular having a set of plans that broadly reflects the major range of
city responsibilities and services is to me maybe the highest, like a very high, high performing governance
goal. So public safety is an example, right? We wanted to work on public safety with the administration
The prior administration, we weren't successful in being able to find a collaborative structure to do
that. So we created a community advisory and public safety commission. They did a bunch of community
engagement outreach, created a plan, or at least a set of recommendations, right? I think how much better
that could be if it was a mayoral council process like other city plans. And so how much that could
actually get alignment around shared goals and vision for the public safety system at large that we
often struggle to do now.
Surely there are some operational type things that aren't going to enter that sphere. But I think there
are major categories missing from what I would call city plans. And I think actually moving toward that
would be an important outcome. Achieving that would be an important outcome. So city plans for things
that don't currently have plans? Yes.
or collaborative system with with with jointly developed community uniforms city plans that broadly
reflect the full range of city services and Operations, I don't know councilmember Piedmont Smith, however,
you want to shorten that I'm gonna leave that to you I think that's something we should discuss further
because the question is like a budget because I agree I agree with the with the goal but then budgetarily
I'm like, OK, how do we do that? Is it like we want money for more consultants? Do we want like, right?
And so what's the, I suppose that there is a, just think budgetarily, because again, I think your example
is a really strong one. But it's like, how do we stop that from being a runaway train of like, oh, we're
just going to do all these plans, which is contrary to also the conversation we had last year with budget,
right? No, we'd have to agree on budget.
what's missing, what needs updated, and reflect what's a reasonable scope. I mean, that would be entailed.
I think it would have to be funded. Often, we don't have either expertise or capacity in-house, at least
to independently and fully develop something like that, especially something that could have a fairly
uniform system of outcomes, metrics, KPIs, leading indicators that could actually allow us to have a
whole system. So that will entail funding. It will entail some conversation to have agreement on where
we're headed. Absolutely.
a set of budget it's like relatively minor it probably in terms of overall budget impact and how long
that would last but it does cost money so yeah but but I think and it's just following up to that the
thing I was laughing about earlier is because this is I mean
Reading it again in this context, object C, thing C, respond to the results from the community survey,
I think, is such a fascinating statement, right? It really is, because it's like a contested thing.
We're always like, well, the community survey says this. It's like, ah, well.
Other things say other things and so it like it's I think I just think a very fascinating thing to bring
up here But it raises it does get back to take councilman Flaherty is structural point here Which is
there there may be a reframing of see a little bit to be like we actually need the capacity to do that
like this is a nice intention and and I think that
I wonder the extent to which we can actually do things like that. I would argue that that's not the
question that we're talking about tonight. You don't think so? I would argue that if we as a council
all mark that as our top priority in high-performing government, then what we're doing is we're asking
the administration to figure out a way to fund that. I'm with you. So we're not trying to figure out
how to fund it today. I'm with you. I'm still talking. Oh, OK. I was still talking before when you started
talking. The thing about the response
the results from the community survey, the thing that I was saying is that the question about structure
is like I think there's this interesting point here that should be on high performing government which
is like funding our capacity to do things like responding to the results from the community survey.
That's what I'm saying. Not we need to figure out how do we do this. I'm just saying like to Councillor
Flaherty's point, what are the structures necessary to actually act on the plans that we're going to
develop is an interesting thing to put on.
as an outcome there. Preconditions kind of, like they need to be, enabling conditions, they need to
be in place to be able to do the whole thing we're trying to do. Right, exactly, yeah. I don't know,
I was asking what it was before I was told that we weren't allowed to say that, so I don't know, but
that was what I was trying to explore, the question of like, what would that be, this question of
You know increasing our capacity to be responsive like but that seems circular to the topic. So That's
member Rosenberger Question 2d Where did that specifically come from it feels so specific compared to
a BNC so New finance financing mechanisms are achieved to fund the climate action plan I mean
Because well, that is my question Councilmember Piedmont Smith Well, that was in the climate action
plan to find new funding mechanisms, yeah, that's why it says cap goal, whatever Okay, because I I guess
I think for all of our plans Well, they all need to all of our community goals and plans. They need
to be funded and
So it's OK, I guess, that the climate action plan actually typed it out. But I think of high-performing
government, a lot of this is based around resident engagement. Well, the first three are. But I think
two, engagement is inherently unequal. And there's nothing in here about a high-performing government
that is governing for those that are not
the meetings and so like to me that is data driven and and also like our community plans and goals driven
so to me a high-performing government is a government that is reaching its goals sometimes without having
to check 20 times with the public to be like can we still do this goal so like it's also I mean it's
about being efficient so
I mean just like transportation plan related, right? We have this community like high priority network
and still we're going back and doing a year at a time to study a street. But we already have a transportation
plan with kind of changing these streets. So I guess I think like acting on our goals is high performing.
And then you know kind of doing something about how like public engagement is not a subset
of our, it's not representative of our population, right? It's just not like an evaluation survey or
something. It's just a group that came out. Sorry about mine. So can we, can you tilt the board so that
we can see it? So should that increased capacity to, from council member, sorry, be complete, increased
capacity to,
Implement City plans the or implement existing plans. Is that what just I don't think it has to be connected
to that I mean, I think high-performing government is So do you just want to be implement? Yeah, like
this work on like attaining city agreed on goals, right? Like I think that is high-performing to me.
I guess So implementation of existing plans as well does anybody want to I
challenge councilmember Rosenberger's assertion of putting that as a as an outcome All right next other
high-performing government additions Well, it's related maybe I think would be helpful to have a status
report of maintenance of maintenance and services the city in other words
Where are we in terms of road paving and scheduling and priorities of road paving or whatnot? There
was a point when, totally unknown to me, that the fire department fell into great disrepair. Their fire
engines literally had holes in the floor, and to his credit,
Mayor Hamilton stepped up and Discovered this and we made a lot of capital investment in fire engines
It took everybody it took most of council by surprise. So if we had you know some basic Report status
report of departments in terms of you know capacity of water treatment or you know You know whatever
it is then we would have a baseline of
I think that we could refer to So councilmember Piedmont Smith wrote that up there as maintained city
assets. So would that be the overarching? And then maintain city assets assets. Yes. Yeah. So then there
would be potentially several, you know subcategories underneath that of how exactly to make sure all
those things are maintained but does that
Yeah, and I would assume that every department had is already aware of this and could communicate it
and you know a brief presentation during budget time Okay, you know And that way this it's also informative
to the public I mean the public a Lot of the public doesn't know everything the city does and you know
these basic services and maintenance would be helpful to them to know and
All right, other outcomes to put under high performing government. Council member, sorry. I think we
need something about council and clerk's office here too, but I'm struggling to think. So I'm just putting
out there and again, hoping that we can talk about it like things around
time of our meetings, accessibility of our meetings, things of that nature. I think maybe investments
in accessibility might be relevant. For our 2027? Sorry, I'm hesitating on that because we're federally
required right now to invest a whole ton in accessibility. So I'm questioning whether that should be
an outcome for 2027 that we want to focus on.
I think broadly there's council functioning, clerk functioning needs to fall under this banner of high
performing government and we should have some discussion about that too. Okay, council member Zulek.
Thank you. I have a different comment. Just when we think about the engagement process, if we truly
want it to be inclusive and representative, the majority of the people who are most impacted by the
decisions that we make are never in this room.
And so when we think about the engagement process, what we should be thinking about is what rooms do
we need to be in as individual policymakers that will help better inform us for the people who cannot
be in these rooms because they're working or taking care of their children or both. Thank you. Is that
does that go into one of our into an outcome category in some way that can be like
categorized or does, I mean, I feel like that kind of falls under A, engagement processes are inclusive
and representative because I do feel like that includes the onus on us as government to go to places
where people are and not just expect them to come to us in terms of those engagement processes. I feel
like that includes a whole lot of stuff. Yes, it does. I just wanted to make sure that I said it because
it's very broad and so if we left it broad, I just wanted to make sure that I
Made that point. Okay, so we want a subcategory underneath engagement processes that is a focus on Going
out instead of expecting people to come in. Yes, I think the owner should be on us. Okay So reaching
out as part of engagement I guess yes
Any other additions for high-performing government and I do want to note that it's 747 right now and
we have like four more of these to go councilmember Rallo I think it's a great idea. I think that You
know councils done it before and in the past it sometimes helped coordinate with the administration
to have You know relevant department heads maybe join us In You know our
Outreach to the public or going outside of council chambers meeting in various places in the city So
it's something to coordinate with the administration Okay, do you have another thing to add because
just for clarity I'm I really want to want to get us through making the list so that then we can prioritize
the list that we make Otherwise, we're never going to get to the prioritizing part councilmember Rosenberger
What I would like to say is I don't think we're getting through the list but number two is I Think that's
okay. Number two is Based on our meeting that we had two hours ago plus other things that come to light
sometimes maybe I don't know if councilmember I was saying this but There's no high performance right
now between the administration and City Council and I don't know What that looks like, you know, but
it's definitely not learning about something a couple days before
There's a $7 million vote, you know? So maybe, you know, being brought in, having council be seen as
a co-equal branch of government, I don't know exactly. I mean, we can say words like collaboration and
communication, but I think those don't really go anywhere. So I don't know if anybody has a good outcome.
I mean, I guess it's an outcome, not yes. Well, I don't get to call on you.
Something about information exchange maybe? It may not be budgetary. Sometimes in like smart goals or
smart e-goals context, when I'm having a hard time finding exactly how to measure something, just like
an as assessed by X through Y process can kind of get you there. And so, you know, if we had mutual
set of questions and ratings from
the mayor and her chief people about engaging and functioning with the council and vice versa. Just
some check ins on how's it going. Do we feel like we're part of the conversation on important policy
matters? Do you know like actually measuring that like could help move beyond just like being frustrated
about a thing and speaking about it. I don't think that's like necessarily a budget priority but I do think it.
Well, it's high performing. It matters. High performing government. That's true. I think that it's an
outcome. I don't know if it's a budgetary implication, I guess. Yeah. Well, I think that goes back to
what Council Member Asari was saying earlier. I think it was time that some things cost a lot, and some
things don't cost as much. But they can still be important outcomes. Sure, sure. Right. And to the point.
Maybe communication systems. To the point kind of at the very outset of the meeting, which is that a
lot of things to achieve outcomes are actually just policy changes that they might not entail.
real discernible budget item at all So Okay, I think that this is going to be my goal I think that my
goal is to get through economic development as a third bucket and then we can prioritize Within those
maybe we can take public comment after we make our lists and then after public comment we can just do
the ranking of the three things that we have done so
Economic development has a whole lot of outcomes that are already listed in our packet and some of them
I think have already or are already currently occurring like number one quality wired and wireless
connectivity is available throughout the city be income inequality is reduced across and between all
ages races and genders and
C, career pathways and training are engaging residents and businesses. D, entrepreneurial activity has
increased and a culture of entrepreneurialism is being sustained. E, wages, jobs and GDP are outpacing
population growth. F, enhance the arts and culture industry in Bloomington. G, downtown events are frequent
and well attended. H, the downtown business environment is vibrant and sustainable.
Ni downtown buildings and sites with blight or disrepair have been identified and remedied all of those
are from the comp plan Then we have two climate action goals one the local marketplace is resilient
to climate change and to Increase number of businesses that are committed to sustainability and climate
goals Who has something to add to the economic developments outcome list
Councilmember daily attract employers offering living wage jobs Which is maybe a subcategory under e
for creation of wages and jobs but a very specific Metric of living wage
Anybody want to want to debate that one with councilmembers daily All right other additions under economic
development I Know it's already a pretty big list for economic development councilmember Rosenberger.
You look like you might I think though. Thank you. I think the list is it's like weirdly more specific
than other lists and I don't know if we
That matters right now. I mean just sort of downtown events are frequent and well attended is It doesn't
it doesn't feel like it's on the same level, but I guess you said earlier we're just gonna put stuff
out there and then Decide if it kind of stays or moves around later That's it Other things that people
can think of to add I
I see a couple of people like almost saying something like like they almost have an addition in this
way Councilmember Rosemarger because I don't have the thought formed like it's fine. It's just usual.
I'm really burnt out after that last meeting I I don't know where this goes or exactly but it's like
It's kind of modern-day economic development that is very like it's more about like creating third places,
I guess the
the top phrase, buzz phrase, right? How we talk about Kirkwood as a shared street, so a place that we
don't have in the city where people can go outside and be in this place where they can eat and drink
and shop and buy things. Without the constraints of needing a car or something. So it's kind of like,
I think this, to me, this economic development goal that is connected to
comprehensive plan of more like neighborhood hubs or like just that We have these areas like neighborhood
hubs in third places. See how this isn't properly formed, but like it's Thanks, I think it's because
I feel like this is a lot about businesses a Through K kind of but like economic development is also
about creating the place the places that make community and feel like a community and
And I feel like that's not like really one of the outcomes that's on here right now. OK. So Councilmember
Piedmont-Smith, create vibrant third places or maybe slash that. Neighborhood hubs. Neighborhood hubs
because that might be more understandable to a more. Does anybody want to question or challenge Councilmember
Rosenberger's addition?
I feel like that's in the comprehensive plan somewhere, too. The hub is, for sure, yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
I think that in the comprehensive plan, it might be under housing. But I think it's one of those things
that can go into multiple categories. Councilmember Rallo. I'm in agreement. I think it jibes well with
some of these other goals. Downtown business environment is vibrant and sustainable. Downtown events.
so it seems important to have public spaces where people gather and then support businesses and to the
extent that people feel Welcome and safe and that it's an aesthetic place and that you know it's conducive
so Councilman Rosenberger you were Kind of reiterating what you said All right any other economic development additions
Councilmember sorry Empty spaces there's empty, you know processes to fill empty Store friends, etc.
Okay And Are you mostly thinking about the first floor retail first for retail things on the square?
This and maybe a subpoint to you know spaces are activated right but which is on here already and
But what can we do to get more businesses into places if there's some way to do that through investment?
Yeah, I think that that could be a new one, activating currently vacant spaces. Because you don't necessarily
need to activate it with entrepreneurial activity, which is D. And those spaces aren't necessarily in
plight or disrepair, which is I. But they just, yeah, it's that first floor retail that we required
people to build
But did not require that they fill Does anybody want to challenge that as an outcome councilmember rough
Well, I'm not sure I want to challenge it but you know, I like that we we don't really have any place
that I seen here that Suggests that growth in the physical environment or even our population is necessarily
Goal in its own, right? Just just growth So maybe under that one we're talking about D entrepreneurial
activities increased maybe Putting per capita in there because one could have an entrepreneurial activity
increased but actually not Benefit Because it per capita it's not really helping you're just growing
things and maybe having the total of
of more entrepreneurial activity. So maybe just having something in the repertoire. So per capita income
growth or per capita economic growth, is that? Well, yeah. But that particular one, D, entrepreneurial
activity has increased. In total, that doesn't necessarily tell us anything, whether it's benefiting
our other goals, our economic goals, unless we say,
If we want more entrepreneurial activity, are we talking here about just more, or are we talking about
more per unit, per capita, per more entrepreneurial initiative and activity and encouragement and investment?
Can't tell if you're suggesting a new outcome or if you're just kind of Commenting on an existing one
that you are not sure of It's the only thing I see in the whole List that doesn't that's it that suggests
that maybe we're just talking about just more and
I've been thinking about this is that I wonder if this bucket might be better called economic health
or something like that than economic development, which to your point, I think we've done a good job
of not framing it all as just growth for growth sake or anything like that.
But I was just thinking about like to this broader point about space making, place making, which I know
we've considered, but I think as we continue to have this conversation about economic development, I
think it would be useful for us to think about, it is a very wide category, and think about what we
want to prioritize in terms of this, you know, the years ahead, things that we really want to see invested
in to create more vitality and health in the economy.
And so I also, in addition to like vibrant third places, I'm thinking about a vibrant art scene,
for example, more spaces for performance, you know, studios, and I know a lot of that's in progress,
so, but thinking about some things like that, I think people often call those like backwaters as well,
sort of in art scenes, interested in that. I'm also interested in thinking about, there's some demographic
conversations here, so we talked about
about attracting businesses that pay living wage, yes, but it's also about how do we attract that age
group that's sort of missing in Bloomington. Yeah, so thinking about those broader categories I think
is useful too. Yeah, and this starts to kind of blend in a little bit with community health and vitality,
which is one of the topics. Right, exactly. Because there's also the arts and cultural events in that
section as well. Exactly.
Exactly where they're overlapping a bit Well, and I would also like to point out that councilmember
Piedmont Smith made this list kind of an isolation to the best that she could in terms of what things
fit where And that another piece of comment could also be hey I think that you know This thing should
actually go under a different bucket instead of the one that it's under that We're not tied to these
lists being in certain places. But to that point do we need to add? Something
Okay, this is what I was thinking to add instead of being a called economic development, you know to
be economic health As the title like does that matter in terms of what we think about going under I
Like helps does does anybody want to come to councilmember Piedmont Smith? I
I'm trying to understand how to capture the conversation that, or the comments from Council Member Ruff
and Council Member Osari as another point here. I mean, I think coming up with a new label for the heading
that is not as important as making sure to capture what was said as like, so Council Member Ruff, how
would you express this desire to not have growth for growth's sake as like an outcome? Actually, Council
Member Osari,
He did a great job of getting at what I was getting at when he referred also to, for example, the arts,
right? It's not just more. We want more per to enrich. But you don't necessarily get enrichment just
from having more. So it's quality over quantity. Is quality a word that you want to stick in there somewhere?
Well, but it's also this whole idea of per unit.
like this per capita. That's what we're trying to, that's our goal ultimately, right? That's how things
are made better. So I kinda like Councilmember Osorio's idea of using this term health or somehow making
it more clear in the general and then we wouldn't have to specifically identify
Like the specific sub areas if we've captured it with this larger conceptual term, I don't I don't So
so doesn't necessarily go on there is an additional outcome but that Were you just not sure that's what
I was thinking initially, but after a couple members. Sorry Mase comments. I'm thinking it captures
more to have a kind of something beyond just an outcome and
I just wanna make sure that we get something up there if there's something that you want up there, but
I'm still not sure what it would be that you would want up there. But Council Member Piedmont-Smith
just wrote per capita. Yeah, I mean, I'm happy with that being just in D, but I like what Council Member
Starry was getting at,
This is really a lot of our whole larger goal here because economics should include Things he was mentioning
like, you know, we're enriching the arts people's lives through the arts quality of life here It comes
I don't know maybe you're kind of talking to you about like I when Council members sorry I was talking
I thought it did also kind of like go under like vibrant third places and hubs just like it feels kind of like
almost like enhancing those communities more, like the arts community. I don't know if that's kind of
like making it a draw for like, oh, I wanna go create in Bloomington because people are creating in
the space in there, like warehouses that you rent. I don't know, I just, maybe you're saying,
it to me sounds, yeah, more like a space making or place making specific, I don't know. I mean, because
it does in here say enhance the arts, right, but you're not,
That's not it, it sounds like you're more of... Yeah, I'm not sure I catch it, but it just stemmed from
seeing what Council Member Piemont Smith had kind of given us here and noticing that it was pretty clear
that we weren't talking just about growth for the sake of growth, but then I saw that on D,
on item D, that it just simply said, increase entrepreneurialism.
got me to thinking we want to be consistent with everything and That could be misinterpreted.
But I mean, I'm okay not to add anything. We had the discussion and it was productive. I feel like Okay,
I do want to note that that councilmember Piedmont Smith did add per capita economic slash arts enhancement.
So Yeah any other additions under economic development? Councilmember Rallo I was still under economic
development
Yeah. I mean, this is sort of land use related, but I think we've ignored a whole section of within
the land use chapter, which has to do with economic development. And that is the concept of an urban
village center. So I mean, it's a big ask because there's a lot entailed, but that does appear in a
comprehensive plan. Is there any effort devoted to urban village centers?
Well, I think that that's what's up there right now under vibrant third places or neighborhood hubs
the neighborhood hubs. Oh Great. Could you just write urban ieve urban Village Center? Okay, because
that's how it appears in the comp plan because I would think is it is it in the comp plan as urban Village
Center except that was in there in their neighborhood hub in the planning chapter Okay, might be both
There's the food
systems there as well, which plays a role, yeah. All right, any other additions up there? I realize
this probably goes more on high performing government, but as I talked about permitting for housing,
I think business permitting also matters here, sort of licenses and permitting falls somewhere in between
these two. So I'm just throwing it out there. And so same thing, improving the speed, ease,
customer service, you name it, of people trying to do business here.
Trying to put signs up as well Other additions or are we ready to go to public comment right now? Alright
seeing no other additions I do want to go to public comment next because is 820 and so or 810 and so
I want to recognize that we do have a couple members of the public in the room and I see that there
are some online participants as well so we'll have public comment and during public comment if council
members can think about more than one thing at a time and
Think about how you might pick your top three priorities amongst these economic development, high-performing
government, and housing and homelessness that we have really drilled down on this evening. And if members
of the public would like to speak, I see somebody coming to the table in person. If you're online, you
can go ahead and raise your hand using the Reactions tab.
But we'll go ahead and start here in chambers Go ahead and state your name for the record and then you'll
have three minutes and I the The clerk is out right now, but we'll figure out a sign-in sheet for you
in a minute. Go ahead Good evening council. This is Christopher energy from the Greater Bloomington
Chamber of Commerce And I think this is the closest I've been next to you during public comment. It's
very close and
Deliberation meeting and I I don't think it's quite you're gonna hit your greatest hits album But I
think there are some good notes that I want to disconnect to talk about when we talk about granular
improvements One thing with the outcome-based budget I worry about that This is going to be all too
encompassing and you'll get a lot of places and then ultimately nowhere so keep it that incremental
improvement on where you're at and
One of the things I wanted to talk about that I just sort of circled I highlighted was Councilmember
Rallo statement about maintaining city assets This is what you have data on already from all of the
departments I know Public Works has their software and take a look at that where we're at on just paving
or cars and with the Parks Department
and see where we are on that. If that is a priority, that's something that you can dig in right away
and have a really good deliberation meeting with these department heads and see where we're at on that.
Because I think that's one probably outcome everybody wants. I mean, there's probably universal. The
one thing I also want to then go to that you just talked about was on the economic development front,
where we just don't want more for more sake.
I mean, as we look at SB1 and look at where the revenue is going to come to pay for these outcomes that
we want, it's going to come from local lit. What is local lit going to take working people here? So
what growth we want is specifically working-age people here in the community living here. And that would
go against certain other residents who maybe aren't full-time residents here.
Unless on ones that are not working So there those are things that we have to look at because as we
look at the economies of scale that piece of pie We need to have to grow that with income where we're
not burdening Too few too few residents and not getting the outcomes we want There's anything else on here
And I just think one thing to work on, if you're not this round, this is the year to sort of look at,
if you're not getting the data you want, is start looking at some dashboard ideas on getting that for
the future. So you'll really have great indicators. I'll go, what are we missing here? What data do
we not have on some of these outcomes that we want? You're supposed to make the best decisions possible.
And if you don't have certain data, this is the time to start looking at how we're going to get that.
All right. Thank you for your time tonight. Appreciate it.
Thank you. There is a sign-in sheet there right now. If you could sign in, that would be great. Did
anybody raise a hand on Zoom? Wonderful. Let's go ahead to Zoom next. And if somebody else in chambers
wants to make a comment, you can come on up. Whenever you're unmuted on Zoom, go ahead, state your name
for the record, and then you'll have up to three minutes. My name is Kevin Keough. I'm a longtime accountant,
auditing professional, and born and raised Bloomington resident.
I appreciate the city's move towards outcome-based budgeting because it aligns with professional best
practices for accountability and financial stewardship. My goal tonight is simple, to help strengthen
transparency and ensure that this process delivers real value to the public. I want to highlight two
fundamentals that are absolutely critical to the success of outcome-based budgeting. A clear understanding
of fixed costs
and the use of meaningful key performance indicators. Outcome-based budgeting only works if the city
has a precise understanding of which costs are locked in. These are fixed costs that the city is obligated
to pay, such as debt services, contractual obligations, baseline personnel costs. But there's also flexible costs.
These are the variable cost or semi-variable cost, and these costs can be adjusted. They can be trimmed.
They can be expanded depending on strategic needs. Right now, the city is preparing to prioritize outcomes,
housing, safety, economic development, transportation, health, and tonight, the environmental category
is that. But unless we know the true cost structure of the city operation,
we risk prioritizing outcomes that cannot be financially supported. As fiscal pressures grow,
and they will, especially with SEA-1, reducing our revenues, Bloomington must be able to act with agility,
including making difficult decisions when necessary. That requires distinction between core, unavoidable
costs and areas where efficiencies can be introduced.
Without clarity, prioritization becomes symbolic rather than strategic. Moving on, the key performance
indicators. The outcomes-based budgeting only works if outcomes are measurable. The comprehensive plan
and the climate action plan, they already have excellent indicators. These are exactly the kinds of
performance measures that should anchor
this new budgeting process. But to be efficient and effective, KPIs must be few in number, not dozens,
but few in number, directly tied to these outcomes, regularly reported to the public, and also used
to make budget decisions. If the city sets priorities today without simultaneously establishing these
key performance indicators, real measure of progress
The process becomes aspirational instead of actionable. I want to encourage the council to require that
every prioritized outcomes be paired with a very small set of measurable indicators before funding decisions
are made. I commend the council for moving in this direction. Thank you, Mr. Q. I'm out of time. Yep,
you're out of time.
What are we trying to achieve? How much does it truly cost? And are we making progress to the goal?
Those are the three top items. Thank you. Thank you so much. Has anybody else raised a hand on Zoom?
Okay, and nobody else came forward from chambers. So I think that we'll close public comment period.
Thank you to those who commented. And for our last 15 minutes, because we usually try to end these at
830. Council members, let's go ahead and
notate our top three outcomes from what we have. And I do wanna make clear for Mr. Keough that we're
not actually setting priorities today. There's just not time for that, but that this is kind of the
first discussion of many for 2027. So give everybody a few minutes to write down and wander around and do that.
Could you clarify again what we're doing? We're doing the activity that you wanted us to do in the beginning
with writing the top three things down but we're only looking at the the three Outcome lists that we've
no on your post-it note Write down your top three. Yep put your initials So so and and so we need to
see where the housing and homelessness sheet is. Oh, okay It's kind of we'll just move one of those
to another place. So go ahead and put a
your post-it notes. So for example, under housing and homelessness, if you want to rank your top priority
as A, your second as B, and your third as C, then that's what you do. Put your initials on it and stick
it on the board. So you should have three post-it notes. And on each post-it note, there are three items.
Three post-it notes and three items. What about the ones that are here listed on the computer? Wait, what?
One item proposed it three priorities total across all categories Well, no, that's why I was figuring
you were gonna we have to write some things on post-it notes So I was I was going to suggest we Write
what our priority our top priority is put a number one by it put our initials by it and then stick it
on the relevant board Okay, so we should have three post-it notes per sheet. Yes
So we should have nine post-it notes. Okay, but we do have to write what our priority is on the post-it
note because some of our priorities are on the computer and some of them are on the big piece of paper.
I'm sorry, Councilmember Flaherty. Councilmember Piedmont-Smith, we're doing nine post-it notes or three?
Three for each area. Two for each board. Or if you can only think of two, that's fine. Two or three
for each board, please. Okay, I'm going to struggle with the combined hybrid
We're all doing the best we can So we've moved one to the wall, oh yes, please note economic development
is all the way over there and They're very
really took a toll.
on one sticky note.
That's what I like to do. Let me clarify. Exactly.
Can I ask to what goal is that referring? Diversity one? Yes.
Don't forget what's on the art. Economic development has so many on the computer.
Did you get married? Hey, congrats. Congrats. You should have done it at a council meeting. I'd really
like to walk out of here at 830.
Yeah, you should report. You need to report about this. Yeah, we need to get that on the agenda. Sorry,
sorry. Sorry, sorry. Do you want to see this one about income inequality, OK? Yeah, that's all right.
That's good. It's a canal of development. Yeah.
What about this? What is true?
All right, well that was fun.
Gosh, Isaac, I'm seeing yours. I'm going 1A. Who's categorizing in A, B, and C? I was like, oh, wait,
no, that's not me. Sorry. I totally realized that halfway through and only caught some of them. Like,
exactly. The one over there, right? Where is it? Where is it? I'm doing it right now. Yeah, it's ridiculous.
This is ridiculous. I didn't even put three on there.
Just like, I saw it over there too, and I was like, what, hey? I was like, who's doing that?
I saw that too.
It's everybody finished with our with our assignment for the evening Can't councilmember Zulek
and councilmember rough If we play our cards right we can we can socialize in just a moment I have a
feeling that It would have been great to go through all of our number ones twos and threes but that
we just do not have the capacity this evening to do that and so
my thought would be that we need to repeat this maybe two or three or six or seven more times next year.
So I had to slip that in for my kids as well. So saying that, does anybody at this point have any last
comments? I think that the next step should be that somebody fiscal committee wise will need to
record all of these responses from us as council members and then use that as a jumping off point for
the next discussion about this. And I guess I would be open as a fiscal committee member, I would be
open. People saying right now, would you rather have part two be talking about what we've done here
or part two being like doing what we did here for
public safety transportation and mobility community health and vitality and Environment because we have
to also go through all of those outcomes In the same way that we just did so Councilmember Rallo. Yeah.
Well, I have some concluding comments but specific to that I Would like to see where this shakes out
Because that would give me some Perspective on evaluating
the other topics coming forward. Because this is a learning process for me. I find out what priorities
my colleagues have. And it's good to have this discussion because my mind is open. It changes. I mean,
I found some of the things that were said tonight very compelling. So it's a learning process to me.
So I'd like to actually go through next time and just evaluate where we're at with that. OK. All right.
Everybody good with that Great. We'll kind of take that then and go with it. Does anybody else want
any closing comments councilmember Flaherty? Yes good with that as the next step also just want to like
express and some caution in like Doing side-by-side comparisons of comprehensive plan goals that went
through extensive community informed vetting processes legislative processes with like this is important
in like this meeting right which is like not to say it's not important but like
I don't want us to lose sight of the fact that, yes, to Mr. MG's point, we need to make incremental
progress. If we are going to adopt a framework where it's like, hey, actually, these plans need to be
updated to speak a common language around a limited set of KPIs that are useful to us to achieving their
outcomes, and we need a public safety plan and something else plan that does that too, if we make those
types of decisions, we're not going to have those plans in hand this year for the 2027 budget. So I
think it'd be helpful also to have a structural conversation about,
Can we get our alignment eventually around some of those things, also from the mayor's administration,
obviously? And then what does the kind of like bridge process look like? Obviously, you all were engaged
in that this year or two, on like a bridge process. So I think that's just important to continue to
keep in mind as we grapple with this. Yeah, I second that. I also kind of went through and at some point
realized, oh yeah, we're supposed to be thinking about 2027 specifically.
that was a little missing maybe from our conversation. Councilmember, sorry. Just also seconding what
Councilmember Flaherty said and taking a little further just a thought that occurred to me through this
process is that in agreement of, yeah, this has helped us start to realize areas where we need more
plans, 100% also concur that some of our plans have gone through.
comprehensive, I should think of a better word, but, you know, like full processes. One of the things
that I have a lot of hope for here is that we get to take steps in the direction of creating plans through
this budget process because it requires at least a twofold with ideally a lot of public engagement.
So, you know, we sort of get to
in some type of agile way, go through some of that planning that can start building some of those building
blocks to sort of more formalized plans in these areas where we're missing. And so with that said, to
the question on the table of what do we want to do next time, I'm totally for us continuing to talk
as we have. But I would just say, as we've said multiple times, I'm hopeful that we do this
process of talking through the budget and our priorities and the things that we would like to see in
the shape like continually not in some episodic fashion that we sort of do it and then we say okay we
did it here this is what we came up with you know you guys do it the rest but that we you know keep
working through this for the rest of the year I'm really excited that we started this so early that
we'll get a lot of opportunities to continue other closing comments councilmember Rallo
I wanted to respond to public comment and I Totally agree with Kevin Keough that performance indicators
for every outcome is a very important thing to keep in mind It's not enough to just say this has been
addressed or you know, we've made an effort but really to determine to what extent The other thing is
I wanted to respond to mr. MG that with budget limitation limitations adding more people
to Bloomington to raise revenue via the lit is one way to operate. However, more people require more
services and require more infrastructure, and that should be recognized too. Another approach could
be to raise wages. That doesn't entail adding expenses with more people, but it raises more revenue.
So that's my comment. Thank you. Other closing comments?
Use the microphone so that then Sorry councilmember Flaherty's comments. It's sort of means that Where's
the one? Microphone communication with council and mayor is That's sort of got to become the number
one priority almost if we're gonna do That was my comment
He did All right coming back together any other closing comments Okay, my closing comment has to do
with council schedule Next Monday the 15th. There is a special session that was called by the mayor
regarding the Hopewell development it is at 4 p.m. And I actually meant to
Get on my calendar what's what room it's in but that is not on my calendar right now Can staff help
me out with what room that session is in on the 15th? Great. Thank you so much It is a special session
council meeting. Yes, the mayor called it According to code the mayor can call a special session There's
an email about it Yeah, you did maybe thank you
I think you may have responded to oh, maybe I responded. Oh, yes. Yes, there's too much of a time lag
in my I'm so glad that I mentioned it. Yes. Yes. Thank you That is scheduled at four o'clock and a quorum
of councilmembers did indicate that they could attend though Not everyone indicated that that was a
good day for them I don't think anybody indicated it was a bad day for them. Just not everybody responded
So hopefully that all works on your calendars 4 p.m Monday the 15th is it McCloskey or is it?
It is Allison and Allison conference room upstairs and that of course is open to the public. It is kind
of like a Hopewell related work session but the mayor has a plan for that. And then our last regular
session of the year is next Wednesday at 6.30 on the 17th. Can we manage the last bit of this meeting?
Councilmember Piedmont-Smith, do you have a note on schedule?
Yes, we have a committee on council processes meeting tomorrow evening at 6 p.m. In the Allison conference
room great. Thank you so much No, we don't All right barring other announcements about schedule. Thank
you very much and we are adjourned