Good evening, welcome to tonight's deliberation session for May 13th. Clerk, would you mind please calling
the roll when you have a moment? Don't rush, don't trip. Council Member Flaherty? Here. Stasberg? Here.
Piedmont-Smith? Here. Zulek is absent. Asari? Absent. Okay. Daly? Here.
Ruff here Rosenberger here. Thank you. Oh awesome. Thank you very much. Forgot that I was the one who
had started it. OK. So we are here tonight for a special deliberation session and it was organized by
council member Flaherty. So I'm just going to turn the whole evening on over to council member Flaherty
to guide us through our discussion for tonight. Thank you. Sure. Thank you. And I can summarize the
agenda to start. So.
We have a focus topic for the evening which is identifying opportunities to improve pedestrian safety
and accessibility following snow events and a structure to kind of guide that conversation. Go starting
with a review of city goals and policies that are relevant moving to discussion of constituent feedback
and an invitation for public comment about people's personal experiences at that time. Then a discussion
of departmental feedback and then some discussion of
essentially potential policy or potential interventions, some framing for that as well as workshopping
specific issues. Finally, prioritization of next steps from here from both the process and substance
perspective and public comment and then adjournment. And I will kind of, I guess, moderate and facilitate
the conversation is my plan. Just a few other preliminary things. Maybe, first of all,
Let the other folks joining us tonight introduce themselves as we have three other invited members of
for the conversation So we could go ahead and do that I am the director of Parks and Recreation for
the city Casey Garino member of the Council for Community Accessibility Steve Olin the chair of the
Transportation Commission and So that's who we have with us this evening
My apologies for some late breaking packet addendums yesterday and then today. I had gotten some questions
to relevant department heads, including Director Street and Hand Public Works and planning a couple
of weeks ago, but between PTO schedules and a few other things, we were still getting answers incoming,
so sorry for the late breaking information there.
Folks from all those departments were invited to attend, but in the context of that, a few weeks ago,
the mayor expressed some concern about staff time having been spent at council meetings in the context
of the Hopewell PUD and indicated folks probably would not be attending. So in any case, we welcome
Director Street with us and understand that others have been at a lot of evening meetings and aren't
here tonight.
With that, maybe one other, well two other things. One, are folks okay using, do we want to use first
names tonight? Are folks okay, like comfortable with that in particular, given that it's not just council?
Hearing no objections, okay great, we can do that. And then second, I just wanted to kind of like outline
my high level purpose outcome process as we kick off. So the purpose is really just to deepen our own
understanding of the issues with pedestrian safety and accessibility.
in the context of snow removal, what's going well, where are we most challenged, are there opportunities
for improvement. The outcomes would be to try to actually improve efficacy of snow removal through targeted
policy, budgetary, operational changes. And the process is through this discussion and then collaboration
with staff to come probably. So we can talk about that kind of in the closing sections of the meeting,
what we envision as next steps, who would like to take lead, that kind of thing.
I remain committed to working on this going forward, but if others want to join on that, both from the
council and otherwise, we can talk about it. So, any questions before we kind of move into the heart
of the agenda? The body of it? Okay, great. So, I'd like to just start with kind of going over high-level
city goals and policies. The packet, the initial packet that came out had a relevant section of Bloomington
Municipal Code,
And then also I did a review of our kind of guiding documents from a planning perspective. Mainly it's
the comprehensive plan that has relevant guidance here in the transportation chapter. Most of those
goals mention improving sustainability and access. So goal 6.2 with public transit for instance talks
about improving and expanding an accessible system. Goal 6.3 improving the bicycle and pedestrian network
talks about
improving and expanding an accessible, safe, and efficient network for pedestrians. We have a goal around
prioritizing non-automotive modes in the transportation network. And so kind of those are the overall
themes in the comprehensive plan. The transportation plan does not mention, or only mentions twice,
snow and it's not in this context, so not a relevant piece of the transportation plan. And then Safeties
for All action plan similarly does not mention snow or snow removal.
The final policy document I'd like to mention is actually the draft 2026 ADA transition plan developed
by CCA and Michael Shermas, staff support for CCA, presented to the Transportation Commission just last
month. This topic wasn't really covered in that plan either, though it was acknowledged there's a challenge.
There is a relevant bit of that plan though, which is about the Snow Buddies program that has been running
I think for a couple of years now, where residents who would struggle to clear
snow from their own sidewalks can get connected with volunteers who would help to clear that snow, and
that there are other volunteers to address other issues like curb ramp snow clearance. Those are the
policy documents. Before we move on to city code and that, any questions just about, again, the context
where we are now with respect to guiding policy, things I missed? All good? Okay, sorry, we're just
in level setting mode a little bit.
So second is the Bloomington Municipal Code, Chapter 6, Section 7, snow and ice removal, which is really
pretty brief. There's kind of two sections. One is about the duty of the abutting property owner. So
property owners are responsible for removing all snow and ice from the sidewalk to allow safe and reasonable
travel. And the responsibility is to clear that within 24 hours after the snow or ice has stopped accumulating.
There is generally a requirement for 36 inches of clearance and 54 inches in the downtown area And then
the second part is about enforcement which is Predominantly it's in hand the housing neighborhood development
department leads enforcement. It is I think predominantly done through Kind of like a complaint based
or reactive enforcement protocol and defines our
They begin at $50 for repeated infractions over time. They can escalate to 100 and then 150 as a maximum.
And they reset after a 12-month period running August 1 to July 31. So if you're a repeat offender year
after year, you're not penalized for that. You're starting fresh each year. I won't get into some of
the operational details on that because that was covered in the hand director's comments in response
to questions.
That's the state of the policy. So any questions about that, about what's in code, what the requirements
are, whose responsibility is what. This applies to the city government as well. So city departments
and entities are responsible for snow clearance for the properties that we own, for instance. Same with
other governmental units, but as well.
Good question Do you happen to know I do not happen to know that's a that's a good question Do you happen
to know Steve, I see it we do not have jurisdiction over are you? They are a separate state entity.
They've made it very clear the city has the right of with the 10th Street, for example at Eagleson the
city has Responsibility for the right of way right up to the curb, but IU controls the curb and then
some so they are entirely responsible
sidewalks within the jurisdiction that they call campus not every building they own is on campus, but
We've never had jurisdiction over them. We can ask them nicely, but I mean I'll note that for also for
just confirming and clarification with with staff If you news to me, let's put it that way What's interesting
is that a lot of the streets that run through campus our city streets they are
But here, we're not talking about city responsibility for the sidewalks on the streets. Well, again,
in this case, at that corner, for example, I've seen the actual property lines. IU controls right up
to the curb. And so the sidewalk is not in our jurisdiction. It varies, because I'm aware of counter
examples. It's not everywhere. But that's common. Yes. OK, thank you. Other questions, comments about?
City code and what's actually required of folks? If anybody knows of other cities if any of any cities
where the city takes responsibility for some are all of sidewalks Very expensive for a city to do that,
but I wonder if there are any examples out there There are some Maybe we get into that though in the
kind of workshopping issues and like the discussion
Like like pork shopping solutions kind of thing Yes, okay Next then we can move into discussion
of constituent feedback and so here We could maybe actually just start with council members sharing
if you have received feedback from constituents this year or over your years of service
What type of feedback that has been? Do folks have ideas? What challenges are they experiencing? So
I wanted an opportunity for council members to share feedback from constituents. I think, Steve, that
could also apply to you as a former council member and a transportation commission member. Casey, same
thing with respect to any complaints the CCA might receive or items for discussion that you have about
kind of a resident experience around safety and accessibility.
So maybe we start there, and then I want to talk a little bit about the quite extensive data we have
from you reports that also help us understand this, and then also have an opportunity for public comment
specific to this, like what issues people are experiencing themselves. So yeah, Dave. Somebody probably
will bring this up inevitably, but I get complaints quite often about, especially where people have
monolithic sidewalks
That is, you know, they meet the street at the curb so there's no grass plot. That when a plow comes
by, it pushes the snow back on the sidewalk where they've already, you know, so it's a constant struggle.
And they feel defeated by the city coming by, especially during large snow events. And I know just from
experience in some states, some municipalities, they have different types of equipment where
It's more like a snowblower type of equipment where they actually lift the snow and put it into a truck
side. That's a lot of expense. But just to have that in mind when we replace equipment, it might be
a good direction to go in just to alleviate, I think, this chronic problem. Because it's a shame if
you get it
You've made the effort, and yet you get cited. Now, I don't know if that's the case. In fact, I don't
even know the citation rate if we actually enforce this. This is a question I've gotten. People are
curious, too. To what extent? I'm having to walk in the street. I don't have a clear sidewalk. Are people
actually getting cited for not doing their obligation of clearing the sidewalk?
Those are two things obviously but just wanted to put it out there those things. Thank you.
Helping sure. So I guess I'll I'll some things the constituents have said to me this year are I've got some
Some suggestions you can say about what we can do. They questioned whether we should increase fines
because only having a fine of $50 so that even if somebody gets fined, they wouldn't necessarily get
it a second time. And so then that's $50, and especially a commercial outfit that's cheaper to pay the
fine than it is to hire somebody to actually do the work.
That's like absolutely facts. It's definitely cheaper to pay the fine than to hire somebody to do the
work and So I they found that very problematic and similarly problematic The process of giving a warning
first before the fine and how that resets every year and especially for commercial frequent offenders that
the suggestion that maybe it shouldn't reset every year because it is frequently the same people over
and over and over, or the same companies over and over and over, who never deal with their snow. And
personally, I also see that happening. And it was especially, I think that there are some places that
have done a lot better this last year. I know the administration and the departments have been working hard
Advertising making sure people are aware of their responsibility. And so I've definitely seen
some improvements but it's still kind of like scattershot in terms of I mean If if everybody has done
their sidewalk except for one person then it still ends up being a blockage being a problem and Yeah
I would say in general one of my constituents Complaints about just how dangerous it dangerous it is
and way more dangerous than Walking on a sidewalk regularly which can also be a little dangerous Just
the idea that it pushes pedestrians into the streets and that's very scary because the streets are also
normally smaller width lanes and then the Maybe it's just the curb ramp is what it's called. But I
I don't know like I don't necessarily think residents are aware that that might be their Piece of the
sidewalk to cover so even if or to plow shovel so even if they clear it to the plows are a problem on
regular streets at all intersections and those tend to stick around way longer even after a sidewalk
is cleared and then I would say I have a neighbor that plows a pedestrian area that is
Abuts a private lot that gets plowed and that private lot Then puts all of it shovels plows all of its
snow into our pedestrian Connection to the beeline. So there's a problem with like where private or
commercial properties are putting their snow that has Those is an obstacle for pedestrians. Oh I'm sorry
Casey. Yeah, you're right
I just wanted to say first that's called a curb cut But one piece of feedback that I've gotten from
other CCA members I'm not able to drive but many of them do and they drive accessible vehicles and one
of the difficulties especially in city lots is that the city will clear the lot and they put the snow
in the handicap parking because it's at the back and
Usually but the problem is that in these lots I believe under the ADA It is that for every 12 regular
spots you have 180 a spot and or either 180 a spot or one van spot. I have to look that up but essentially
there's way more regular spots yet somehow the snow always ends up in the accessible ones and those
are already extremely limited and
So I feel like we need to come up with a different solution for that. And also on the street when because
they often push the snow into the parking that the accessible parking is prioritized to be cleared before
the regular parking because again there's a lot less of it. But that's one of the comments that I've
received. Yeah. Great. Thank you. Steve it does seem like.
There's, I mean, we've also seen this issue with frequent critic of public works when a new building
is being built and they don't make room for a sidewalk or they let the construction take up the sidewalk.
It seems like the priority is the accessibility of snowplows rather than the accessibility of everybody
else. In other words, we'll only see the snowplow that is
Easiest for the snowplow to push and whatever snowplow we have that's that's how the the roads get cleared
and certainly there's no thought about Prioritizing sidewalks at the same level as as streets So, I
mean I think who was it who said earlier? Maybe it was Dave who said But when we've replaced equipment
we should be thinking about a diff a wider variety of tools than just The big old truck that we can
move the most snow with
Because they're moving. They don't prioritize handicapped spaces. They should be covering up the non-disabled
spaces in a parking lot. So even there, their thoughts are what's easiest for my truck to do. Other?
Yeah, please. I just wanted to add, I forgot to mention bus stops. Because one of the other things was
if somebody usually bicycles or walks,
After a snowy event, especially a major one often than looking for a different transportation solution
but the bus stops also become completely inaccessible and I'm not sure that there's any solution for
that at all. That's been tried I'm not sure that BT is is thinking about ways to like shovel out their
their bus stops or in terms of
I'm like I'm not sure who who would who would be responsible for that If if the stop say is in front
of an apartment complex, you know the apartment complex maybe they're supposed to do the sidewalk but
then the bus stop is here and then there's the little like little sidewalk that that Goes to it goes
to the street for you know people to actually get on the bus So I don't know who is responsible for
that technically and
But I don't think anybody's doing Here's one more thing that I know that people have a question about
which is when are they obligated to start shoveling this is within 24 hours of the last snowfall, but
because The snow can keep falling it can be unpredictable and there's no clear signal the city for example
does trick-or-treat hours they announce when it's safe to go out maybe if there was some
Signal I mean we we know that the the plow drives are out there. They have a protocol for tackling the
snow maybe You know the city could could announce some kind of a Time by which you're supposed to like
based on the weather make it official so that people are more likely to to start shoveling Thank you
any other thoughts from like things
that we've all heard from constituents our constituency about challenges anything from the parks Casey
please go ahead. I wanted to ask who is responsible for the sidewalks that branch off of the beeline
for example at college and third and Madison at third because often these branch shops are not touched
and there are businesses along there. But I know at Madison and third the business that's there is abandoned.
And when I contacted the realtor for the building he said oh I contacted the owner but the owner didn't
really care. And these are these pathways are how people pedestrians and people with disabilities get
up to the line. So who is responsible for those.
Good question. The adjacent property owner, typically, so third in college, there's a building owned
by the city redevelopment commission and by the capital improvement board or county, maybe county government
convention center. Yeah, exactly. And so those are both public entities at that particular place. But
sometimes, just related, I've also observed and had constituents report to me.
Sometimes there seems to be a kind of figuratively last mile but in reality like last 10 feet kind of
gap where like This happened at first Street in the beeline this year and maybe some other beeline crossings
as well. We're like The property owner on I think you know Whoever was doing it on first both east and
west of the beeline on the south side of the street did like those sidewalks were cleared but they stopped
about five or ten feet short of the beeline the beeline was cleared and
But then there's just this gap people are trudging through. So that's kind of related to something that
Kate brought up, too, about people not knowing quite where their responsibility ends, quote unquote.
And even, I mean, that's a question maybe that you could opine on, Tim, and any other feedback you all
have heard. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, the last year, well, both of the last years we've had very extreme
winter weather for us in terms of would we have 15 inches in a couple days this past year, I think,
and subsequent storms and about the same the year before. So it's very hard to know what to prepare
for in Indiana. Are we going to get a year where we have two inches of light slush for the whole winter,
or are we going to get what we've had the last two years where not only does it snow heavily, but the
temp drops?
And if removal isn't done quickly, that stuff hardens into something very difficult to remove, which
I think has been the situation both of the last years. I will try to focus mostly on parks, but I might
have conversations about all of this as well with Director Wason and others as we talk about this and
strategy in the winter. Obviously, the U reports start flying.
As soon as the snow starts flying practically and as you mentioned I know hand is very complaint driven
and how they can respond and figuring out that clock as Steve said I think is something that's kind
of tricky to say exactly when did it stop snowing. We positive feedback that we received from residents
is about you know getting trails and we prioritize the main trails first facility access and then
Secondary trails like going around Brian Park things like that The nice thing about plowing those trails
is we're plowing those with specialty smaller equipment and you're not Generally competing with what
is happening on the road, you know, so the road gets plowed it pushes it up onto the monolithic sidewalks
The beeline at least we can provide a really good transportation Avenue for a lot of people Without
competing with road snow coming back in and I think what may happen in a lot of those places that you're
talking about the last ten feet
Just the order of operations right like every time someone goes back through and does something It pushes
it opposite 90 degrees To where the path was before right? So it's kind of a constant that competition
but Ongoing saga of you know, maybe we clear the beeline and it's looking really good and then roads
get plowed again And then all of a sudden all of the road access curb cuts etc get
covered up with the layer of slush again, or it melts and refreezes across it. So it's just, I think
it'll be hard to find a perfect solution. I think looking for ways to do things better is really admirable,
and we can engage with that. But there's always going to be a little bit of battling with the order
of operations and how to get it just right with every storm being so unique and different too.
Thank you. And I'll also echo that positive feedback I've heard from constituents with the beeline in
particular and the prominence with which that gets cleared.
Dave I was just looking at the municipal code six point zero seven point zero one zero and it starts
by saying that it's the duty of every owner of any premises of a sidewalk to remove the snow but all
of the snow from the sidewalk and I just wondered is that something that I mean is there the discretion
of the enforcement person to you know I mean it's
pretty rare that you see all the snow removed from a sidewalk in its entirety, however important that
would be for accessibility. I mean, could you comment on that? Is this something that we need to refine
in some way? I mean, on the one hand, I want it to be accessible for everybody. And you've got people
that need to pass each other, especially. And then you've got people with accessibility.
Issues and things like that and but yet is it practical? I mean, I don't know is it what what's your
experience too? I was thinking about that as we looked at the code to the you know It says I think generally
36 inches is the width at which you should have it, right? But in the downtown, it's it's 54 and I don't
know if that's defined to being Was was that just curb cuts or 54 or was that everything was 54? It's
it's everything everything. Yeah the so I'm something to consider there too. Maybe how quickly
you know, do you get to that full 54? Because when you get that 11 to 15 inches, which is, again, I
don't expect that we're going to get that every year, but who knows with the way our weather patterns
go, you very quickly run out of places to physically put the snow. And that's why this past year they
had to come into the square and downtown and things like that and mobilize. I know CBU actually mobilized
equipment this past year to come and take and load snow and take it away.
Because unlike an East Coast city, we don't have a melter. They have those rolling dumpsters that you
can melt the snow in and stuff like that. So they used front loaders or something? They did. They used
front loaders in this past storm. But obviously, that took time to come in, because there was just too
much snow everywhere. And there's only limited places to put it. So that ended up being a mitigation
effort. But I know that took days.
of CBU being out there and helping out and loading that snow out. But it took time. OK, so we're getting
into some questions around kind of departmental operations and some of the feedback we got
there, particularly with enforcement, which we'll get to with a hand. So maybe it's a good time to move
beyond kind of our experience of constitutional feedback to two other items here. One I wanted to share,
which is really just the packet addendum that came out this evening for folks' review.
exported the 404 U reports in the category sidewalk snow removal for winter of this year and just ran
it through an AI assistant to analyze the data and report on trends. So that is in the packet. I think
it largely aligns with what we're hearing. I'm not gonna cover that at a high level or in detail rather,
but y'all can look at that. I think I did ask it to identify kind of opportunities and what's going
well and you know the positives in this.
And so it has some of that framing in terms of what we can leverage that's successful. But yeah, the
issues are the ones we've talked about. Transit access or bus stop access is a big one. Intersections
in particular has a challenge. And snow banks blocking access, uneven enforcement. And some of this
is, you know, this is residents reporting, so it's a kind of perception thing.
So concerns about lack of enforcement, uneven enforcement, complaints that have been made and still
sidewalks not being clear. So this kind of chronic non-compliance type of issue. Folks raising major
pedestrian corridors in areas around schools as particular issues.
So yeah, that's worth a browse if you hadn't already because it helps synthesize a pretty extensive
amount of user experience data that we have that might further help inform some opportunities
for improvements as well as what's going best. So the other thing I wanted to invite here is just if
we have any public comment either online or here in chambers about people's personal experience as a
pedestrian or in the pedestrian context with snow
Removal so that could be about your own responsibility to clear snow from a property. It could be about
You know your your Experience moving through the city as a pedestrian whatever else comes to mind So
with that we could open it up for a short public comment on this particular topic of people's experience
With pedestrian safety and accessibility snow removals. Do we have anybody in chambers that wants to
comment on that? Please go ahead and walk up to the table and
Oh, yeah, yeah the tables the tables great. I think we should probably have sign in so if you if you
want to just sign in on the podium there then Cap that at three minutes and I Timer introduce yourself
and then go ahead. Thank you My name is James Ford and you've already talked on about a bunch of this
things I wanted to hear about but there's a couple things you didn't mention the alleys in my neighborhood
are an issue because
They don't typically get plowed, but the sidewalks will stop at an alley, and the next sidewalk will
start at an alley. And if the people are being responsible by shoveling their own sidewalks, they're
not shoveling the alley, and the alley's not being plowed. So even if the street's plowed and the alley's
not, there's a big mound of snow right in the middle between the intersections. And typically, the alleys
are not ADA compliant anyway, and there's awful crumbling
Sidewalkers crumbling asphalt there. So I would like somebody to at least think about alleys as An issue
for people who are having who have difficulty Getting around There is one issue about I think it was
just touched on by mr. Rollo There's an old property owner in our neighborhood who has built in his
lease that says the tenants are responsible for the snow removal not sometimes tenants are
young people who've never shoveled snow before and tell them, oh, you need to shovel your snow and I'm
not going to even give you a shovel, then they don't get shoveled. And then who gets fined? Do you find
the student who didn't do their shoveling or do you find the owner? So I think that maybe there should
be some sort of prescription against forcing the tenants to be the shovelers and that it should be the
responsibility of the property owner.
We do have repeat offenders that rely on the fact that their first warning every year is not going to
be a fine and so then they just don't do it that first time and then there's the Repeat offenders who
will shovel a single shovel width down and it's hard to even with one person to To get down that little
path One side thing
I think it would be, I think HAND is awfully busy and it would be helpful for them if they would have
a person who was maybe a coordinator of volunteers for the neighborhoods so that if each neighborhood
had a volunteer who could report to the volunteer coordinator, say this is an issue, this is an issue,
rather than having to send HAND employees out to the neighborhoods, they could just be having somebody
in HAND office receiving information from a neighborhood volunteer saying,
We've got a big problem here, or we're OK here. Thank you. Thank you so much. Do we have anybody online
who would like to comment? No? All right, thank you. And here in chambers? I think we have the sign-in
sheet at the table now, so you can just go ahead and. Hello. You'll have three minutes once you're ready
to check. Yes, I'm Zach Ammerman. I wanted to comment basically anecdotally. I live in an apartment building.
This man is by one of the largest apartment owners in the city and they never came at all during the
major snowstorm I went out and shoveled like a a makeshift path just so I could get out with my dog
and went around it I personally shoveled all the way around two buildings that have four units each
Shoveled a passage to have a makeshift path for people and nobody ever came from the apartment building
despite his calling and asking and I understand they're busy because it's a crazy snowstorm, but I think
that is representative of a large
Number of things happening in the city of large apartment units are just eating the fine Because it's
a $50 fine for property. I think that's not sufficient It needs to be I would really like for you guys
if you can to look at enforcement Particularly for apartment buildings. It should be a fine per unit.
It should escalate faster for apartment buildings and HOA is for example, too And it should be higher
for apartment buildings That's the main thing. I really think we there's an easy way to do that. So
you're not hitting single-family residents that hard
But you're getting enforcement. I think that would have a lot of bang for its buck, basically. Yeah,
so that's all I have to say. Thanks. Thank you so much. Anyone else here in the chambers want to comment
on their experience with... We'll be back in a moment, Casey, for... Or if you want to... If there's
others, you can... Oh, yeah. Go ahead, please. If you'd like to sign in, you'll have three minutes.
Yeah, on the topic of snow. You know, I plowed snow for 37 years at the street department. And man,
it's a no-win situation. Every snow is different. Every year is different. And them guys do a great
job. And they really put their heart and they risk their lives when they get them trucks. Right. They
risk their lives. And I appreciate it. I've been retired for four years. And that last snow, we got
the one that had like 15 or 18 inches. That was incredible. I went out with my rubber boots, and it
was all the way to the top.
Them guys gotta be tough. Them guys are bad ass. Excuse my language. Right, okay. But they're really
good guys. But I wanna bring something else up too. I don't know if it's proper time or place,
but you know, a virtual tour. I was coming down Adams Street yesterday. Of course, you know, virtual.
And I turned on 6th Street. And boy, by the time I knew it, there was a police officer behind me.
come out of nowhere. I thought, OK, cool. And they come up the alley. They come up the alley and got
right behind me, lights flashing. I said, oh boy, OK, I kind of knew what I'd done. I kind of knew what
I'd done. And she was really cool. She was very understanding. Could have wrote me a couple of big,
fat tickets, but didn't.
Her officer asked a Bella. I asked him a while ago who she was. He told me about good, but I really
appreciated that them to kind of police officers we need that gives you a break because I don't want
to go to Don's insurance next week and say, Hey, how much are you? And he gets him tickets. I get them
tickets. My insurance will go sky high, but she didn't give me one. And I greatly appreciate that man.
But I really had plans on coming here tonight and complaining about a few things. But I'm going to wait
for another time, or it's time and place for everything. But I really want to compliment the police
for giving me a break, man. I appreciate it. And God bless America. OK, thank you. Thank you for your
comments and for your recognition of staff and their hard work. No problem. Any other public comment
online? OK.
I think that would conclude then this portion of kind of feedback. So the next part of the agenda is
really kind of talking about the feedback from departments. Tried to tailor some questions to Parks,
Public Works, Hand, and Planning that were unique to their purview and responsibility. Maybe we actually
just want to start with Parks, and I don't have to cover it since we have Tim here with us. So maybe
you just want to kind of give an overview
You know Your feedback that you shared with me and the parks responsibility and kind of what's going
well where you see opportunities for improvement And then we have any questions folks have sure Hopefully
I remember I would just say in terms of parks what we are responsible for is Primarily our facilities
so oftentimes we're having to make a call about our
facilities being open or closed things like the Twin Lakes rec center other places that people go to
recreate or have events and Then we have sort of a priority list that we hit during a snow event Typically
when we get an inch or more is when we activate if it's less than an inch We don't necessarily do a
full activation of our snow removal protocol the beeline is sort of the
The champion priority of all the priorities that we have just because it is such, you know, a recreation
and transportation artery for the city. And because if we get that plowed, then that can provide a safe
alternative to example, you know, college and Walnut sidewalks, which are going to deal with monolithic
snow getting pushed up issues and provide that basically same north south access.
From there, it's about other parks properties, starting again with access to the property is the priority.
And then we work our way in, starting with more major trails, including secondary trails. Jackson Creek
Trail, Clear Creek Trail, Polly Grimshaw Trail is another one that is important for transportation as
well, especially to campus from the east side. So those are sort of the secondary priorities. Rail trail.
really plow because it's soft surface. This time we actually did end up doing a little bit to it just
to make it lower and a little more attainable to people, but it is not always plowed. Things that are
going well, yeah, I think we have overall a good understanding, a good system with public works. I saw
some questions about multi-use trails versus paths, and I think Adam summed it up well. He said,
The public may not always understand where the responsibilities start and end between public works and
parks. We typically do And that is that public works is generally responsible for multi-use paths the
definition being a path goes along a road When we do the trails which the trails are generally not along
a road they go separate from a road so that's generally our area of just delineation I think
Yeah, as we mentioned, we've heard a lot of positive feedback about the beeline, about in general this
past storm. I also just heard a lot of positive feedback from residents in general about how appreciative
they were of having clear places to take their dogs to walk and to get to the grocery store or a crover
on the beeline, for example. Things like that and just how important it was to have in the midst of
a lot of uncertainty and
You know, maybe my neighbors have plowed their sidewalk. Maybe there's a missing section in my neighborhood
I can get all the way there except for this one house that hasn't done it To have the reliability of
some of the the trail and access options. I think is going well Challenges again. Yeah, just the the
mixed nature of it from time to time that it's I think it's right that it's never the same twice Questions
for yeah Kate and then Steve
I was looking at the GIS. A beeline question. I do think it is awesome that the beeline gets nowadays.
So the priority of it, I think I'm appreciative of that. If property lines, do you as parks do the sidewalks
that are part of the beeline property itself? Because the park is like probably
I don't know what that might be 10 10 feet on both sides of the beeline and because who would be responsible
for that actually That's a great question. Yeah, that gets at kind of what I think you were talking
about that last five to ten feet I'd actually need to check in with our There's more or less two people
that end up being responsible for the beeline snow removal up and down That would be a good point that
I could follow up and clarify with
I was going to ask, how does Parks track how much plowing is done? Do you have real-time info? Do plowers
report to you what they did? How quickly do you get that kind of data back if you track it at all? Not
very officially. Basically, we know, and I think I kind of said some napkin math is,
You know, we have about 20 union employees in our operations division and a couple others in other divisions
who, when we get a major snowfall event, it's their day, right? And maybe their day and more if we're
getting into overtime. When we get into overtime, we can track that pretty easily, overtime related
to snow removal events. So no, we haven't really done a concerted effort to track specific hours.
The reason I ask is because in both your case and Public Works' case, if you could track, you know,
segments that are cleared, it would be the beginning of a modest database that would allow us to expand
over time if we knew how much, you know, 20 union people could do in one day if we, you know, we get
a baseline sense of it.
And I don't want to create an excessive burden of work. But if you know you're clearing the Polygram
Shaw trail from x point to y point, and that's a standard thing that somebody does, they can report
in that they've done that. And we can get a sense of what the city is currently capable of. And that
will allow us to measure what public works can do and then what maybe we can
You know, I just, there's no data. And that data of hours spent doesn't really help. We need to kind
of know how linear fee cleared. And so I didn't know how much of a burden that would be, do you think,
for your staff to, is there a way to operationalize that? Yeah, there may be through something like
City Works where
I haven't really thought about this too much. I'd have to check with the GIS department. But some GIS
tracking or things like that, we use that in other applications. For example, weed wrangles and pesticide
application will do GIS tracks. So there may be a way we could do some similar GIS tracking for snow
removal. Also, are all the vehicles that are used to move snow, are they four wheeled? Are there any
hand plows?
What's the diversity that you use to clear? For the parks department, it's everything from full size
pickup trucks with blades, some UTVs that have different attachments, either a snow pusher or there's
one that's a broom for when it's like a lighter, fluffy snow, down to hand shoveling, down to snow blowers,
and a few other things in between I'm not thinking of probably.
Feel like this is the kind of thing that would be the subject of a Transportation Commission inquiry
that where we don't know anything enough and we don't even know whether to Recommend a resolution at
the Commission. We were looking for So it'd be interesting to for us to work with you to see if we can
find a system that doesn't put you all out while Thanks Other questions here be back for time good about
Yeah, I think that my my question is kind of on the vein of what Steve was just asking about is I mean
the question was how long does it take for you to clear, which of course I mean it depends on the snowfall
and I mean you said like it takes you know your 20 workers like a day but like say if we get you know
six inches of snow.
how long does it take for you to clear all of the things that you're responsible for clearing? Is that
a single day of work? Is that a day and a half? Do you just have them work overtime until they're done?
If this happens on a Saturday, do you call folks in on Sunday in order to get that done in terms of,
yeah, and it's kind of a similar question, I guess, but it's also that idea of,
how much different departments can help each other, because how much you can help each other sort of
depends on how long it takes you to do the things that you're actually responsible for. And I think
one of the challenges there is what you've hit on is what's the nature of it? Is it five wet inches?
Is it five dry inches? Is it to the point where we say, there's so much snow, go out and do your first
pass, at least get a first pass in, understanding
we're adjusting the quality of the job based on the quantity of the snow sometimes, right? Like it's
still coming down, we're gonna go hit a first pass, we're gonna have to do it again later, we're gonna
make it better, but at least there's a first pass in. So hard to answer, but I do think there might
be some applications of GIS where we could just start a track and get a little bit of interesting data.
In terms of how it's written in code with the requirement of the removal within 24 hours after
the snow stops falling. Is that accessible for your department to do? I would say many snowstorms, yes.
But for example, and I think same thing for Public Works, this 15-inch snowstorm last time, no. Within
24 hours, could we get everything 54 inches? Could we do all of that? For the reasons we talked about
before, no. Just because there was so much snow being pushed around and limited places to put it.
And just a finite amount of labor and over time to to commit towards it that it just necessarily took
more time to get to the final standards that we wanted. OK. I have a question that isn't directly for
parks but you might know which is I was asked about public works if they were responsible for like all
city owned properties besides parks properties. The answer was no. And so parks does parks facilities
public works does public works facilities.
There are other city entities like the Redevelopment Commission or just others that have property, CBU.
So every department is essentially responsible for its own snow removal. And did they all do that in-house
or some contract for it? Do you know that? I believe CBU takes care of their own for their facilities.
I feel pretty confident about that. I don't know about the RDC.
Believe there may be precedent for some contractual removal at RDC But I'm not positive and I would
defer that back to Anna or to Adam to give a definitive answer That's when we had a gap at least one
gap with the college square property this last cycle So it's helpful to know that that's not public
works responsibility and that's like maybe it's a ball that's gotten dropped with RDC Other questions
or feedback for for Tim Casey, please You mentioned
The issue with shoveling 36 inches versus 54 and how long does that take depending on the amount of
snowfall. I'm wondering if it might be beneficial to the city to build a sort of policy that says within
X amount of 24 hours or 48 hours of a snowfall, it needs to be at 36 inches. And then at 72 to 96 hours,
we go to maybe 45 inches.
And then further out, we go to the 454 in order to give the city time to deal with the amount of snow,
but still keep it safe for the pedestrians. I think that sounds very reasonable. I think the challenge
is just always going to be putting a specific time limit not knowing what the conditions are and knowing that I
I think all departments I know public works, they get after it. They do everything they can to get it
clear, including the Brighton VTown crew that does the downtown ramps. And we collaborate and try to
help out. And across departments, we'll see something that needs to be done. We'll try to help. But
I just don't know how you could get a sort of time limit that would work across the board. I guess that's
the challenge with private enforcement too, right?
Maybe that is a good lead in to hand as the next part we'll talk about because it gets into the enforcement
context. It seems like some discretion is necessary around that type of thing, but it's a little bit
tricky to spell it out. So we still need standards that are kind of the default, but then some ability
to have some discretion around enforcement. Interestingly, so the questions that Director Killian Hanson answered
She mentioned, I think, a process of issuing warnings first, which is actually not what's in code. Code
says if we determine there's a violation, the person shall issue a notice of violation. And so I actually
don't think that discretion that's being exercised currently is in code. But I think some kind of discretion
is probably warranted. But there's also an appeals process that's defined in code, which we didn't talk
about earlier, though it's quite
quick turnaround, like seven days, you have to notify the Board of Public Works in writing that you're
appealing, which might be a little onerous. But yeah, so hand. The overall theme was that enforcement
is a real challenge for the Housing and Neighborhood Development Department. That ranges from staffing.
The folks who do the apartment inspections and certification are the folks who are doing the enforcement on
failure to remove snow from sidewalks. So they're already kind of like overworked and limited in their
ability to get to it. There are operational challenges around like the time it takes. She mentioned
the 24-hour window thing and when to start enforcing is kind of like a barrier. They're getting a lot
of complaints. They can't do anything about them yet. That often snow is melting before they get around
issuing a citation, things like that.
She did note that there were 275 complaints and 307 citations, which I was a little surprised to hear.
I just assumed there would be fewer citations relative to the complaints. I did identify 400 plus complaints
in the snow removal category for this past winter, so I'm not sure what the source of discrepancy is
there, but those were sort of the major themes, at least that I read in the answers from
from hand, do folks have questions that we want to, I kind of anticipate having follow up conversation
with the department heads, and so do folks have questions they are still seeking answers to or reactions
or feedback to ideas that were spurred by what the department heads shared, so a hand in this case?
Steve? What was, Dave and Andy, what was the term for when we wanted apartment buildings to not
One hookup but a hookup for every unit. What was that? Yeah, what was that what the word for that Concurrency
is that it was it called do we call it concurrency where the point was just that what the gentleman
said about a
Billing, finding per unit as opposed to, or at least per linear foot. Per linear foot, yeah. Yeah, that
is a loophole. It's a big loophole. And that any new policy ought to address density. You know, at the
very least, I mean, for a larger property that has more linear feet, that maybe ought to be a concern.
the number of people crossing on a side like that. But for an apartment building, that's a reasonable
thing that I think that ought to make its way into a new policy. The other thing is just even more now,
I feel like, especially if it's somebody in parks. I don't know if there's a meteorologist on your staff
or anybody who tracks. But if there was an official city announcement of how much snow was falling,
I think there's more than one class of snowfall.
Uh, but like, you know, at three inches or below, it's this kind of fine. And at six inches or below,
it's this kind of fine. Or, uh, if, uh, uh, if the temperature goes above 32 degrees, uh, for, uh, we
have to find some way to classify the amount of snow that's fallen. That's practical, but that, uh,
recognizes that not all snow is the same.
You know maybe we don't need to worry if it's less than an inch. Maybe we need to give people more time
if it's more than a foot stuff like that. Those are just some thoughts that are coming to me. I think
that the commission the transmission commission would take it. We'll have a great interest in helping
research this issue and working with planning and park staff to and public works to
deliberate over this if if the council wants it. Other questions or reactions to the hand. Yeah as well
then I'll be well first of all just to clarify. So for an apartment building the limit to municipal
code only applies to the sidewalk in front of the building the public right of way so not
There's no unfortunate mechanism if they don't clear their parking lot, unfortunately. Another point
I wanted to bring up is according to the numbers that Anna Kelly Hansen provided, where there was 370
citations and what was it?
Or escalating fines we did have snow that stuck around for weeks and if people don't Aren't responsive.
I'm a little unclear about that. That's something to clarify So I guess I would like to know if there
is any proactive monitor, you know Maybe large properties sidewalks are clear downtown. I don't know
Hopi Yeah, thank you. So one of the things that I wondered when I read this and it actually related
also to something that I
one of the members of the public said about the rental properties and who's responsible for snow removal.
And my thought honestly was that we should just always make the owner responsible in terms of the fine
and that it's their responsibility that if they expect their tenant to that they're going to pass that
fine on to their tenant if their tenant doesn't do what it is that's in their lease agreement.
So maybe putting that specifically into code could help relieve that lack of clarity for hand in terms
of issuing those citations. So that was one of the things that I wondered. I also wondered, so this
was a question maybe that you can, I think you're writing down questions for department, that's great.
Whether there, that,
Handbeam proactively monitoring forecasted storm systems and then rescheduling inspections And so I
was wondering if that change and monitoring resulted in more ticketing More compliance generally whether
there were whether they managed to issue more fines. I'm definitely interested in that question that
Is belt brought up in terms of what does that? 370 mean is that 370 $50 fines like did we actually
Was there any revenue generated from fines specifically related to snow removal and I would similarly
be interested in terms of How much we charge for that? I mean there is staff time associated with having
to go out and Ticket and wanting to make sure that our fines are
Appropriate for the staff time that gets used and I'm not quite sure how long that fine of $50 has been
there But I think it's been a really long time. Yeah, and there have been lots of increases in all sorts
of Things including staff Salaries, so I think that it's really appropriate to increase that and then
my last thought was wondering is
Whether city staff from outside of the hand department whether they could be trained to help hand during
these especially large events of Addressing the you reports writing citations like like checking to
verify especially thinking about some of our staff members who are already out in those whether so it's
not like a member of the hand department is having to drive over somewhere when
You know, maybe a police officer who's already, you know going through that neighborhood can Drive by
and take a quick photo and send it or sanitation Parking enforcement parking enforcement like I think
that they're it just kind of brainstorming to wonder whether there are other ways that we could utilize
other departments to support hand in some of that even
Even like plow drivers because they're out especially with the large events like this time. I mean they
went over and over and over to improve things and whether Those staff members could ever be utilized
in any way to support the hand department Steve It would also be interesting to find out the protocol
the parking enforcement uses when there's snow on the ground at a certain point they can't enforce the
meters because they can't be seen and
Or they can't be accessed So it would be interesting to find out what they know But I absolutely want
to chime in on the idea that when they can't enforce meters They can and should be right helping moose
know or at least identifying how it's being done That was promising
Tim I'll just throw out one as I've been thinking about timing of storms and severity of storms one
metric that might be available Out there that you could look at tying something to is the travel advisory
status Because that is something that is subjective but is set at certain times And could also dictate
what level of staff response is even appropriate at a given time based on the severity of the storm
and the travel status
Yeah. Kate and then as well. I was wondering about a couple of things. One how we have that reset every
year that you can get a warning and let's question the warning. But for other infractions or citations
we sometimes do a three year. So would we want some a longer period. You know we have
I think with the conditional duplexes right now, if you have any citations or infractions for the last
three years also, you can't build a conditional duplex. And I don't know if we would want to look at
putting something like this in that list of if you don't clear sidewalks, then you will be added to
this list, and you cannot participate like everyone else kind of thing. Because I think it is that big
of a deal that we need our sidewalks cleared, you know?
Another one I thought of is not using other hand staff but honestly doing like a temp agency for snow
events because it is so random and temp agencies do that like emergency staffing where either for citations
or I mean I was really wondering too if there's any way to do a citation slash a removal service that
then they get
billed for the snow removal off of their sidewalk. I don't know if you heard that, but just because
a citation doesn't fix the problem that people can't get through in the snow that I consider like an
urgent emergency. Like if sidewalks aren't accessible, like right, them getting a $50 fine or $150 fine
doesn't really, it does not fix the problem. And I think too about
it's such a wacky thing that that snow events happen and that even like property owners can normally
clear it but they might be on vacation right and they might not have a backup and I'm not saying they
shouldn't but it's like they might have just been like I never thought about hiring someone you know
like someone's checking my mail but I didn't think about like snow removal and it's just like there's
just so much to consider and then if someone gets cited while they are out of town they might not do
anything about it and so then people can't
can't get through still. So I would love to even look at a fee for service if you don't get it done
yourself. We are doing it, and we're charging you. Isabel, and then we should move on. Also,
just a reminder, we do have a section about solutions. So this is a little bit more about questions
for hand and clarifying anything from them. But we'll talk about specific issues and potential solutions
too. It's all good.
Well, in Adam Wayson's replies, the Public Works Department did a pilot where they cleared snow off
of some sidewalks downtown. And I think he said they were having a hard time even finding private contractors
to do that work. So it may not.
Maybe this will spur entrepreneurship, I don't know. But if we're going to move to billing people for
actual snow removal, then we need to look at how much snow removal capacity our community has. But I
was actually going to say, I would want to ask Hand and people who do the enforcement what they would
think about
Well, maybe it's not actually for them to decide. Probably for us to decide. But I'm contemplating a
distinction in fine structure between either between a single house, whether it's rental or owned, and
commercial property, which would include permanent buildings, businesses, et cetera, car dealerships,
et cetera.
make the fine based on linear feet of sidewalk. I mean, it's a huge difference if I don't clear in front
of my little 50 foot right of way in front of my house, or the Ford dealership on South Walnut, which
is a quarter of a mile long, doesn't clear their sidewalk. So I think we need to think about
some distinctions there.
Inevitably with this is a little bit I was just noting that we do have an official agenda portions Maybe
we move into public works just by way of summary Is there a final thing on hand? Yeah, it's actually
kind of a question also from a constituent who mentioned the idea of neighborhood volunteers to help
do the reporting and I'm wondering if that would be at all practical because then I mean I think in
some ways it might make it easier if there's a single point of contact and
Opposed to you know, lots of people Okay, thank you so public works some just by way of summary They
spend quite quite a lot and so we're generally a lot on equipment or materials looked like 700k plus
we they do have plus We do have 50k that they have used to pilot some things and they did a pedestrian
or sorry, monolithic sidewalks on College Walnut Corridor between First Street and Winslow, including
carrying snow away. That might have also applied to the downtown curb ramps that the DPW Brighton Bloomington
crews worked on. So those were kind of some of the pilot things. Those might have both been covered.
It seemed to me like the College Walnut Corridor one was maybe not worth the effort. It was very difficult.
And that actually probably isn't, like it was hard for them to be effective. They were like repeatedly
hauling snow away.
It was a lot of money out of a small area that actually probably doesn't have relative like very high
pedestrian use and so I'm curious about like It is a monolithic sidewalk issue But like might we be
better served by like having them just target curb ramps and like the high pedestrian use areas Or something
like that. So that was an interesting report. I kind of like how it's going Clarifying clarifying that
multi-use paths and and probably
works facilities are what they clear. They feel clear on responsibilities in city parks, maybe less
so that confident that residents are clear. Just anecdotally, an example I'll share. I know New Hope
families, like the multi-use path in front of their building along Patterson there, their portion was
cleared. I'm guessing they did that because the other portions of the multi-use path were not cleared
for the entire duration of the previous snowstorm. So it seems like maybe that was a gap
what was on Public Works radar, but then also residents maybe not being sure about whether they had
to clear or not. And so it does seem like there's some ambiguities there to resolve. Adam highlighted
just how hard the folks on street work, that they feel good about their activation and their responsibilities
generally. Noted they have challenges with equipment, especially with relation to protective bike lanes.
I don't know, I'd be curious, Tim, if they
Share equipment at all if they have any equipment that is like yours for smaller Flick spaces like protective
bike lanes, which are having more of over time He also mentioned challenges with curb ramps model sidewalks,
of course Willing vendors for contracted services And also the quality of their own facilities relative
to the you know long hours worked so Maybe I'll start with you too. I do not know the answer to like
what smaller equipment they're actually using on like
Seven line for example. Yeah, I'm not sure okay Is that something that I know that in inner department
kind of like agreements around stuff like exceed my understanding but is that something where like Sharing
equipment across departments is is viable or is that something else? Yes. Yeah, I mean just potentially
based on What it's being used for and it's it's home department, right? But no, we we do share stuff
back and forth frequently Okay as available. Yeah
Thanks. Other reactions, questions for Public Works? Stacey. Casey, sorry. I'm wondering, you talk about
the equipment that we have here in Bloomington. Do you ever contact other cities outside of Bloomington
to borrow equipment in major storm events? We have not, no. Would that be a potential solution? Potential.
I mean, if you could reach far enough away, I think that the challenge with most snowstorms is that
they're regional.
And so most of your regional partners like Columbus has helped us with storms in the past. But if we
get a snowstorm Columbus probably is too. So I don't know that there's much opportunity there for sharing
unless you had you really knew there was a big storm coming and were able to have some kind of mutual
aid agreement with someone far away. Yeah. Could that be something that the city looks into.
I don't know. I think it's a good question.
So sharing with IU as another I mean they have loads of non infrastructure that they clear Other reactions
or additional questions for public works Areas for exploration I have a question that would be do we
have to clear every lane of
wide streets like do we need three lanes on walnut during Snow clearing or could some of those resources,
you know, could we clear one lane on major streets like that? And then those resources be used elsewhere
I have a question for them about the ability to Basically many of our streets are overbuilt or wider
than they need to be and is it possible to clear not
Very close like five feet away from the monolithic sidewalk. So you're in a book with it Basically a
pile of snow in the street, but nevertheless, you know enough room for cars to go That's a question
I have Would it be possible with the Clearing of the sidewalks to potentially use bike lanes because
not many people are biking in them
Well, some people are still trying, but as far as putting the snow, like storing the snow there? Not
necessarily storing it there, but if we're in the process of moving it out and we need to temporarily
put it there while we're getting equipment, could that be a workable solution? I think it's what's happening
now with maybe the exception of protected bike lanes, which I think they're trying to plow separately.
But I think in general where we just have striped bike lanes on the street in practice What's getting
cleared probably mostly is like a drive lane. That's just becomes de facto shared So I think I think
some of that is happening. I'm not sure it's ideal but other Public works specific thoughts Hopi I guess
I want to second the confusion about what might be
as a multi-use path and what might not. There's a link in his report to the GIS snow remediation map,
but then I have to log in to ArcGIS, and I don't know that I have an Esri account to be able to log
in and see that. But I guess that would be a question because, I mean, if the sidewalk
Excuse me is is wider Out front and you think maybe it's a multi-use path or maybe it's not a multi-use
path like And is there a map somewhere for a resident to be able to see where all the multi-use paths
are? Mm-hmm
Good question and for the department and just and or like reporting that is something like if they're
tracking this already Is it something that could actually be reported on if not to the council maybe
to the Transportation Commission or something like that? One other thing I will I did speak with Adam
on the phone earlier today and he also mentioned their kind of sidewalk operations plan In development
still I think they're still working on some sidewalk
data things related to maintenance and accessibility gaps. But in his mind, this all kind of factored
into that. And the Transportation Commission was also a natural partner on that. And to the extent that
some of the opportunities for improvements might be operational, you know, resident education, reporting,
things like that, and need not be codified, that their appearance in a plan and their
you know, I guess, synergy with the Transportation Commission might be a good venue. So just to clarify,
municipal code only talks about sidewalks, not multi-use paths. That's right. It's a multi-use path
that's along a street, like Roger Street or Patterson or Grimes, like an extra new hope. They're not
legally required to clear that. I think the property owner, right? Yeah, I think that's right.
Well unless the city is in fact doing it all the multi-use pass they're probably easier to plow most
of them are asphalt not Well, they didn't that might have just been a failure of our own operational
protocols, but that's a question for clarity Unless there's any last comments on public works. I might
just open it up for just a minute or two I'm planning a transportation their feedback was quite limited and
And then maybe we can kind of go into these categories of solutions and talk through things. I'd like
to keep us to around 830 to finish. Obviously we've been workshopping and getting kind of solutions
adjacent in some of the conversation already. Planning and transportation doesn't have a lot of direct
responsibility in this like Parks Hand or Public Works does. Nevertheless, it's where the pedestrian
and bicycle coordinator position is located. They administer Safe Streets for All and our comprehensive
plan essentially.
So the feedback from Director Hittle was, again, relatively limited, kind of noted that some of the
things he thought were going well was using the high-injury network where we are trying to prioritize
pedestrian safety in particular as a lens through which to think about the limited public works dollars
and where those can go for pedestrian routes, monolithic sidewalks as a particular challenge, and just
expense and logistics.
I don't think a lot to dig into there. But if people had specific questions for follow-up with planning,
yeah Well, I guess this goes back to staff coordination because I know that the planning and transportation
Department also issues certain types of notices of violations depending on what it is like And so I
wonder if that would be another Good option for a department to help partner with hand During these
large snow events
Yeah, it seems like one well-equipped person with the right software could just proactively monitor
the high injury network and issue citations. Because yeah, right now it feels like we have a scattershot
kind of reactive approach. Good question. Other planning related observations or questions?
I was going to point out that planning and transportation and engineering co staff the transportation
commission. This kind of inquiry would fall under the jurisdiction of planning. So in a way I think
maybe they're more a department that would help derive the solution as opposed. In other words
the coordination solution between departments since planning is in their name.
But it like I wouldn't expect them to try it to do enforcement. I expect them to do to help Coordinate
a response between departments. So I think they they would be very useful in that respect And they will
be actively Discussing this issue when we bring it as an inquiry. It'll be part of that discussion.
I think Tim, do you know of any? what I'm in interdepartmental
discussion looks like on this particular issue? Is there anything standing or occurring? Yeah. We have
had periodic check-ins with the GIS team to try to update that map that you're referencing. I was just
looking for the link. I can't find it at the moment. That has been a typical ongoing thing to just try
to clarify some of those. Are we covering these things? Is there a gap?
I'd say that happens probably once a year, but no other I think I think this is the impetus for maybe
other coordination other than coordination during storms and phone calls and Borrowing and equipment
and things like that that come up that was discussed Got it. Thank you any final Observations or questions
for planning before I move on to kind of talking about solutions more Alright, let's do it. So this next
The topic was really just me framing how I think about this a little bit. We've kind of got policy,
budget, and operations. And so, revisions to like the fine schedule, right, or responsibilities, those
might be entering into actual policy, which is kind of squarely our purview, but, you know, to be done
collaboratively. Budgetary, you know, the dollars we allocate for clearing pedestrian infrastructure,
addressing specific gaps like
you know, curb cuts and curb ramps. Staffing, resourcing, right, equipment needs. Director Wason mentioned
protective bike lanes, struggling with those, other staffing issues. So then operational, that can range
from, you know, resident community outreach, other things people have been suggesting about how we conduct
business, how we might collaborate or coordinate. And sometimes things are going to touch on multiple of those.
We are least probably suited to direct the operational pieces, but I think questions and recommendations
can help. And so maybe these categories that I outlined are a little arbitrary. Maybe we can spend eight
or 10 minutes in each. Folks, it was some suggested topics that again surfaced as like these are particular
issues that have been coming up again and again from resident feedback, and that people have specific
ideas, potential solutions that they'd like us to look into.
as we pursue next steps on addressing some of these particular challenges. So in the network accessibility
category, I listed like monolithic sidewalks, sidewalk clearance gaps, and just the high injury network
in particular as maybe a focus area. Is this useful? Let me pause actually. Are these categories useful
for discussing solutions? Do you just wanna treat the whole list here as sort of like a, you know,
getting the juices flowing, talk about whatever you want for the next period. The latter? Option two.
OK. Let's do that. Great. So for the bus stops, does Bloomington Transit, could they maybe take some
responsibility for clearing bus stops? I mean, I know they're not set up for it, but they need to join
the conversation about that, I think.
Do they do anything now? I don't even know. Yeah, good question. Yeah, I similarly did you talk to John
Connell? I did not. The CCA has done a little bit of work with Bloomington Transit and I've had conversations
with John because we did a presentation for them about people with disabilities in the summer of I believe
2025. And one of the things that John said, because I bought up an anecdote about a winter when it had snowed
I went to somewhere and the bus dropped me, but the sidewalk wasn't cleared and the bus stop wasn't
cleared. And I asked the driver, where do I go for you to pick me back up? And they said, we can't pick
you back up because we only pick up at the sidewalks or at the bus stops. And when I brought that up,
John happened to be in the room. And he brought it up that if a driver pulls up to a stop and it is
not cleared, they are supposed to radio it in from my understanding.
And also that if they drop off a person who has disabilities somewhere other than a bus stop, then they
need to radio that in so that alternative solutions can be made. Because what I ultimately ended up
having to do was call the transit office and I said, how am I getting home? Because there's no sidewalks
that connect to this building. Major sidewalks.
the FSSA building, which is a building that many people with disabilities have to interact with for
various reasons. And what they ended up having to do was send a BT access to be able to come get me.
But I'm not a BT access user. Yeah, that's very helpful. And sorry you experienced that, but thank you
for the information. Yeah, Steve. Her story is literally why you all created
the makeup of the Transportation Commission. It includes John Connell. Often, his deputy, Shelley Stramitis,
is there for him, but he literally sits on the commission to address issues exactly like this. I mean,
so I mean, I am sure that when, if and when we deliberate on it, that would be a good place to do it,
because he'll be there. Other solutions, ideas?
Yeah, Leslie I Mean I think a lot of this just points back to the theme that we've had throughout the
conversations that we don't have enough hands during these situations to To help clear all of this snow
in you know to help each of these departments in their specific assigned areas So I don't have a solution
I'm just saying I think that's one area that we need to focus on and is how can we get a
more, whether it is temp help, more departmental pitch in, whatever that might look like. I think that's
something that is probably going to have to be on the top of the list in order to get any of these solutions
that we come up with handled. I wanted to clarify. Are we just talking about solutions for transit at
this point? No, really any of the things we've been talking about. OK. Going back to what we were talking
about regarding the alleyways,
live in a complex where our garbage is in the alleyway and many complexes are like that and when we
had the snow last winter our trash was completely blocked and nobody wanted to clear it because there's
multiple buildings along that alleyway and when I called my landlord to say what do I do because it's
actually written into our leases that if we don't take our trash out our leases can be violated they told me
You need to either ask a neighbor or get a caregiver, because we don't have a solution. And unfortunately,
for many people with disabilities like myself, we don't have caregivers and family members. And you
may have a neighbor willing to help you, but not always. So I feel like there needs to be a solution
from hand that says, if your complex garbage is in the alleyway, you have a responsibility to shovel
Every which way from your complex to at minimum your garbage Mm-hmm to allow for sanitation to continue
Can I ask a clarifying question? Is it do you know if it's served by a private sanitation company or
the city of Bloomington sanitation? That would necessarily make a difference usually four units or less
the city Bloomington five units or more is like a private we'd be grumpy or Okay. Yeah
But I feel like that may need to come at a code level to say, in regard to the alleyway discussion,
if the garbage for a complex is in the alleyway, then that complex has a responsibility for either a
portion or the whole thing. But I feel like that needs to come at a higher level than just the landlords,
because they're not doing anything. Thank you.
I thought Kate and then hope you think Of course, I don't like that. This is a resident responsibility
or a property owner responsibility, but I wonder about Sometimes the city gives out helmets for cyclists.
I wonder about having snow shovels available that are like Newer useful right ergonomic all those things
that could be helpful. I wonder even about piloting some
Maybe neighborhood association project with a snow blower for a neighborhood where some kind of like
sidewalk size snow blower could in a neighborhood could like run it. I don't know it like for emergencies
or for folks who can't get theirs cleared. I don't know if that's my idea. Hopi then Steve then I'd
like to take.
Okay. Thank you. Kind of going back to what Casey was saying about code changes and also what Isabelle
said earlier about. So if an apartment complex like they might be required to shovel the sidewalks but
they aren't necessarily required to shovel from you know an individual's door to the parking area for
example. And I guess the question would be whether we could put something in code that requires that.
It's like whether we could put something in code at all that requires like that access to trash bins
I Mean that's like a legal question as to whether whether we can do that but then I also just I I think
that we really need to reassess our fee structure and assess I Guess just every part of it including
how much the fines are and
whether it's the same for everybody or whether it's different, how can we differentiate commercial complexes
from single-family residents from apartment complexes? I feel like those are three different categories
in terms of businesses, and then two categories of where people live, and then a category of businesses
where people work, where people shop, and that those might all need to be a little bit different.
And yeah, I guess that's the piece that I'm in terms of solutioning. I think that we just need to make
code a little bit stronger.
And I mean, you have kind of the question of the efficacy of fines and whether fines do anything. I
think that fines do do something if they're high enough, especially for commercial entities. It really,
really bothers me on the east side, the College Mall Road, which is the mall on one side and lots of
other businesses on the other side. And it's practically the last to get done. And those are all commercial
entities, pretty much, and it should
Not take that long for those folks to do that year after year after year Steve I think it was interesting
what New York City did this year where they threw money at the problem They basically said we're gonna
we're gonna commit to clearing all the streets. They hired people to to shovel I wonder if there isn't
a solution that involves adjusting the the fine structure to be more Appropriate
with respect to the density of people who are being served and Once we know that we can recover some
greater fines from greater Enforcement Also hire people to shovel neighborhoods shovel curb cuts shovel
trails and
And let's find out how much it actually costs to get the level of service that we expect and then recover
some of that cost from the fines that It would certainly teach people to go and clean their own Sidewalks
if they got hit with a big fine because we had to hire people to shovel their sidewalk for them I don't
know how they did it. I don't know the details of it. I just know that it was big news in New York City
this winter Yeah
I asked Michael Shermuss about the Snow Buddies program and how it's going when he was at the Transportation
Commission. And he mentioned, I think, maybe a total of 30 volunteers and that it was less about kind
of neighbor to neighbor. And those kind of things are probably happening more informally and more about
people just volunteering to help with some issues, curb ramps in particular. He mentioned they would
work on and plus probably being deployed in some instances for assistance to a particular
household. But just to say that this is we're not going to volunteer. I understand. Yeah. No, I'm just
sharing that that's where that kind of is currently. I wonder about leveraging neighborhood associations
the way Kate was talking about to you, even if whether volunteer or pay, you know, basically working
with the neighborhood associations to make sure they all have like communication on this and a plan
in place. Are they helping to get the information out about responsibilities?
As part of that, are they asking neighbors to help ask about and help their neighbors and identify if
there's folks in their neighborhood that they can take care of who need it and volunteers within the
neighborhood unit? That'd be a really good way to leverage that infrastructure. The one other thing
I wanted to highlight is, yeah, trying to really zero in on like, I agree with Kate that I'm not wild
about the fact that we treat what is ostensibly the highest priority transportation mode
and kind of the lowest level priority with respect to this issue. But that's probably a question of
political will to like make that shift. And there are some places, I think Bloomington, Minnesota actually
clears all or most sidewalks, the city itself. I know Syracuse was doing a pilot in like the downtown
where they were like having responses. So there are versions of this out there. That's usually places
with more snow actually than what we get because that's more predictable in a sense.
I don't think we're probably there. And the question is, like, what can we do that is most impactful
at, like, least cost, maybe? And I think, like, equipment needs or equipment sharing has come up, like,
trying to clarify, like, what are the equipment barriers that Adam is facing in public works? And if
HAN is going to continue, you know, leading on enforcement, it seemed like there were software kind
of challenges there that Anna was raising.
And that they were switching back and forth between Paper, you know citations and trying to look up
property owners Like that all seems like it there's an integrated software solution to some kind like
they shouldn't be like looking up Property owners on the fly. So those kind of targeted intervention
interventions and I think that could extend to you know paid folks for
Shovelling to instead of relying pure van volunteers. I Wonder too about the gig economy in this where
it's almost like an uber app because it is so Urgent and you know, what if it's the thing where you
get on there and you're like, I need it shoveled I'll pay this much right now, you know and I don't
know if there is an app like that that exists like neighborhood help and things but um, I
We're right. It's just people kind of negotiating on their own about what they might pay. You might
go out and do it like I would go shovel a little bit to branch off of your comment. The difficulty with
something like that is that while people can they might be able to pay or Bloomington might be able
to develop something like that.
For people with disabilities and the elderly, many of them are on fixed incomes, and they can't afford
something like that. So you would automatically create an exclusion by doing something like that, by
making it a pay for play type of service. Yeah, and I wouldn't mean it as an only solution, just as
can some people take part in that? I mean, I obviously think this should be a city service for all the
sidewalks.
It could be a solution potentially to free up resources, but you'd have to be careful not to make it
the only solution because you would create exclusion Right right now The only solutions we have Besides
what city staff can do are volunteer solutions. I'd rather see snow buddies helping people in need than
people who
than just sort of random sections of the city. We could concentrate those volunteer resources for people
who need it, but people who are property owners who can afford to pay the fine and who should be attending
to this responsibility. We don't need to have a single solution for everybody. We can have multifaceted solution.
I just wanted to highlight what Kate said earlier about the neighborhood associations and and you know
there's our small and simple grants that neighborhood associations take advantage of and maybe there
could literally be like a snowblower grant and I'm pretty sure I'm remembering right that there's somebody
in Park Ridge East who likes his snowblower so much that he snow blows all
like a whole bunch of sidewalk for people there. I have to say I enjoy shoveling snow a couple times
a year. My spouse actually went and shoveled several cars out of a nearby senior living complex for
Random people this during the storm just for exercise and fun. So there are people that would Use that
snowblower and would very much enjoy you could get a whole network probably people who would enjoy running
the snowblower and that if we had some kind of neighborhood grant related to that then that could at
least you know, take care of
Certain places and especially some of those really high traffic like high pedestrian traffic sorts of
places and maybe depending on where it is you can even incorporate that into into some bus stops depending
on where Those snowblowers were kept and where the bus stops are There is an app for that an app called
shoveler the app that removes snow you can become a shoveler or request a shoveler for your home or
your business or your
I don't know. I think there's a combination of solutions here. What I'd really like to see is a move
toward proactive enforcement if not citywide which probably isn't feasible on like the high high entry
network in particular and or like downtown kind of overlay. It seems highly feasible. It may well be
that parking enforcement actually has very low work volumes during snow events or in a lower
And would be able to take some of that on and maybe it's a bifurcated responsibility Maybe hand is doing
neighborhood education and citations for the one-off sidewalk gap in a neighborhood that somebody's
reporting But you know, there's a core area that's that's delineated. That's different Because yeah
It seems that the reactiveness is actually part of the operational challenge that Anna has highlighted the
that people are trying to do their regular job, and then they'll have to respond to this thing, and
they can't respond quickly enough. Yeah. Yeah, Casey. This isn't actually a solution. This is a question
from earlier. Who is responsible for areas in Bloomington
that are under construction when it snows. For example, the Hopewell neighborhood and Second Street,
because this last winter I actually got stuck there for about 30 minutes because it wasn't shoveled
and the police ended up having to come get me. It's the property owner. So it's the city of Bloomington
in that case. But that points to RDC. I think in particular we've identified as maybe having some gaps
in compliance. But yeah. And one of the things
One solution I think the city needs to kind of think about is in snow events how to handle older sidewalks
because for example 2nd Street it's not just the sidewalk it's quite old and because it's being developed
a lot of the maintenance of it has kind of come to a point of well we'll get to it when we redo it all
and the difficulty especially on
second in some areas is that there are some curb cuts that are little more curb than cut and They don't
go straight ahead They go to an angle. Yeah, and that angle goes into traffic So I feel like with curb
cuts when it snows It's not just about clearing them but also marking where are they because when we
get deep snow and the snow starts to pile the level of the snow
And the level of the curb can become even, and you can't see where the cut is. And when you have a curb
cut, like on some of the second street ones that go at an angle, you don't want to miss the curb cut
and be thrown into traffic. So I think it's not just about clearing the curb cuts, but making sure that
it's clear where are they when it snows.
It reminds me to talk about this issue like it might be a code thing to to clarify responsibilities
that extend to you know to the street or like like all the way to the street edge or whatever right.
But it's not if you're if you're on a if you're on adjacent to an alley or a street. So it would include
the alley I mean.
No, not include the alley. That's that is a separate issue But like I think some people are carrying
sidewalks like to the corner, but like not the ramp part going to the street By Kate's vote and no other
objections. I just We are in this the workshop of specific issues section of the agenda and
And we're treating that list of 11 or so things as ideation here. And we're in those categories, including
the other. Well, this would be under the topic of city and property, I guess. And that would be an unmet
need, it seems to me, is accessibility to parking meters. So not only if you park a car, you need at
least some access to the sidewalk. Say, picture the square. I need to get to the sidewalk. And there's
usually a barrier of,
maybe a snow bag that I have to navigate. And there's no way to get there. It takes me into traffic.
And then I've got to feed the meter. And that's not always. Maybe in the square, you can reach over
to it. But I've been on, I don't know. I wonder if the microphones are catching what you're saying,
Dave, because you're so far away. I'm just concerned about people on cats not hearing you.
I'm gonna point to you in a moment. So the point is accessibility to parking meters and In some cases
I've had to walk into like a snowbank in order to feed a meter and I imagine everyone else is doing
that too Wait
Well, I find it's your responsibility so The parking services division did commission a Study on parking
the first one since 2018 Just came in. We've just issued comments on it. It's about to come to the City
Council within I don't know probably before the break and one of the strong recommendations in it something that I
I know parking services has wanted for a long time The elimination of single-space meters that they're
expensive. They're hard to maintain I suspect that I mean acknowledging everything you said and I pointed
out earlier I think that when the meters get so full of snow, we need to find out exactly what the protocol
is for enforcement officers Do they bother to enforce when nobody can get to the meter? but it will
be easier to
prevent snow from blocking meters if we go to meters that are for a half block or a full block where
you have to go to the meter to pay and then maybe put a piece of paper in your window or you give your
license plate there if there's only one or two meters per block, it'll be much easier to Clear the snow
around it and it make them accessible It doesn't really address I mean because right now the meters
are sort of in the right of way where
Public Works deposits the snow, right? They're shoveling the snow into the meters. So if there's only
one or two Multi-space meters per block that should Eliminate one small part of this this large problem.
I'm certainly going to recommend that they go to that kind of meeting Sounds good
Are the parking spaces labeled so I can You know well enough say that it it's making us to know exceed
the scope of I can see yeah, but I'm just no no, no, there's there's pay by space and there's pay by
plate and if you can I mean park park mobile the app expects you to have a place and
then it doesn't matter that you're at a particular meter or space. So let's move on to just a brief
touching base on next steps. I've taken notes and documented questions that folks have for follow-up.
I anticipate probably having a conversation with the various department heads and also probably John
Connell or someone from Bloomington Transit to talk a little bit more about exploring some of these
concepts. I think at minimum, the council's purview clearly extends to code
and looking at potential adjustment to the fine schedule and some of the details around that. I think
there's also probably some budgetary implications. Pedestrian accessibility and safety in the context
of snow events need enter our budget priorities document this year. So it shouldn't be a surprise if
we're coming with some specific ideas in that vein. And then probably some of the operational stuff
might be more about clarifying things, identifying opportunities through that conversation.
where there might be some gaps like like Kate you Brought up the one around like if the width of the
beeline right-of-way is 20 feet wide in some areas But we're only clearing the 12 feet of path that
maybe that is an operational change for parks to you know and so identifying some of those things and
then some of the processes that might support it so, you know the sidewalk operations plan or you know
the reporting processes and things like that, so I
I plan to work on those things. I would welcome a colleague or two or three, whoever sub-quorum amounts
would make it easiest and most feasible to be able to meet with staff with ease and that kind of thing.
Are there others who are interested in working on next steps at some level? Hopi? I'm interested in
working on the code change stuff. I think I mentioned that to you and kind of exploring different potentials
for the fee structure.
and I guess just the I don't know how much we can how much procedure we want to code but Yeah, well
hand is specifically called out and we could explore other options if there's gonna be enforcement beyond
that others interested in yeah I think the CCA would definitely want to be looped in on to that I don't
know if I myself would be able to do it, but I know others would be interested. Yeah, great Yeah, no,
definitely any like
policy change and that kind of thing would be I think done in conjunction with Transformation Commission
CCA That when you say When everyone's saying feet is that we really mean fine when we say feet here?
Yeah Yeah, fine schedule. Did I say feet is generally what? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like you're planning
to do it. So we should call it fine I'm interested I'm super interested in
getting sidewalks cleared. So as in like not as much of the fine situation, but the actual getting the
snow off of them. So it'd be additional. If we're getting so big about the help, you know, or the input
in the work. Yeah. We hope he seems to be very interested in the fine situation. And that's great. And
I think it's service too. And I feel interested in the snow blower situation. Sure.
Yes. Yeah. And I want to clarify that part of part of my motivation for that is I do think that the
fines can be effective especially for commercial entities. And so that's my interest in increasing fines
and changing fine structures especially as it relates to commercial interests just so that any constituents
out there don't get like oh my gosh that council member Stossberg wants to know. It's about businesses
that should be doing this anyway.
Well, this goes to Andy's question, I mean The whole purpose behind Parking fees is to get compliance
not to necessarily make money for the city But it pays for the service of providing parking in the same
way whether it's a fee beforehand or a fine after the goal is compliance and I think that what Hopi
and Kate are saying are kind of the same thing and
You're not looking to charge fines for the sake of it. You're looking for it so that you can get streets
cleared. That's what any kind of fine structure should be about. I don't think we should go to a fee
structure where we charge people in advance for it. So I appreciate that you made the distinction. But
in theory it's possible we do that already with other services in the city. Parking being the primary
example. So I'm hearing Hopi Kate some interest in collaboration.
Forward I would anticipate reporting back and periodically to the council on progress and some of this
too Anybody else want to be looped in on particular aspects of this going forward beyond that? Nope,
okay I'll be happy to help if you want to plug me in where needed Okay, I don't have a specific but
if you're like, hey, we could use a hand here. Yeah, sure. Give me a call. Great. Thank you With that
maybe we can move on to a final round of public comment about the
overall process, next steps here, et cetera. At least we have one member of the public in chambers.
If you would like to comment, no comments, okay. Anyone online who would like to comment? No comments.
All right. Anything else, any final clarifying questions? Yeah, Steve. What's your timeline? How soon
do you want to see a change in policy? A year or six months? I think things with budget, for this coming
season, for this coming winter season. So I think we should aim to have code changes,
any potential of our operational updates and reporting on that and any budget requests obviously obviously
for this budget cycle. So it'll probably be iterative but all those things have to make progress on
this year. Is there one particular staff member or department who would coordinate a response from inquiries
from counsel or in other words if the if the
The transportation mission took it up as an inquiry. We'd involve planning and transportation
and engineering, but we might be repeating work that somebody else is already doing. Yeah, you know,
potentially Hank Duncan, the pedestrian and bicycle coordinator, is a suitable position to kind of be
in a convening role, planning department generally. Maybe also look Ryan Roebling. I don't know. Public
Works does a lot of this, obviously, on the city.
But it's just multifaceted. There's multiple departments involved Right. That's why I asked you So I
think we've named the right people for the most part and they identified a few more transit Yeah, I'm
sure we can get ITS involved somehow. Yeah Well, I did reach out about the data Analysis from you reports.
That's something we should probably be leveraging a whole lot more than we do HR. Yep All right with that
Thank you all for your ideation and thoughtfulness. I think we are adjourned. I think Courtney has to
adjourn us. Oh, we just offered it. Yeah, we did. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. That's OK. Yeah, there was
no one. I think Courtney has to adjourn us, though. Oh, yeah. I'll turn it back to the chair of the
meeting to adjourn us properly. Meeting adjourned. Thank you.