- All right, so I'll go ahead and call this meeting of the special fiscal committee. It's a order at 8
- 31 on September 4. District three chair. Big road, district four council. It's about Piedmont Smith,
- district one. Matt Flaherty, council at large. Deputy mayor.
- Jeff McKim, City Controller, participating remotely. Thank you. So today, probably because we're coming
- off of budget month, and that was a pretty intense month in terms of financial stuff, and probably because
- I knew that Controller McKim would be online this morning, I figured that it would be a good time to
- just sort of talk about our thoughts, generally speaking, about
- budget presentations, um, about anything related to the budget, if people remember that up specifically,
- but also about the fiscal committee role, um, overall. And we talked to them during budget time about
- outcome-based budgeting and the administration wanted some support with that. Um, and so, uh, just in
- terms of this committee and then little notes about scheduling and then adjournment. Does anybody have
- anything they want to add or comment on the agenda before we
- Okay, great. Seeing none. So I included in this memo some questions to come prepared to discuss. And
- the first thing on the agenda, that's just going to be with budget presentations and feedback. And I
- kind of put them down as, you know, A through D before public comment in terms of the format of the
- presentation, the slideshow, the question and answer format.
- how the public was involved, how we might want to get them involved in the future, and considerations
- for next year. But I don't care what order we talk about them in. I'm just going to take notes on them.
- And then I also included in the memo some specific questions. Did the budget look at the information
- you expected? If not, what was missing? Was the time available for presentations and verbal questions
- sufficient? Did you find the format of follow-up
- Written questions on that Google form, easy to use for both questions and answers. Was there anything
- you felt particularly useful this year? Anything not provided this year that you found helpful in the
- past and what could improve next year? And then how can public engagement be increased during the budget
- process? And those first five questions in the memo really kind of include or relate to budgeting stuff.
- So any feedback?
- on any of those things at all? Well, comparing the budget book this year to last year, I felt like we
- took a step backwards in our goal to try to get to the outcome-based question. So last year, at least we had
- general categories and how much is spent on each, within each department. This year we have none of
- that. So I guess I'll throw that out as my first reaction. All right, other thoughts on the budget book
- as related to outcome-based budgeting? Matt, did I see your hand start to look? No, but I'm happy to.
- provide some initial thoughts. Outcome-based budgeting, specifically, I said this in some comments,
- and I've said it here, that my general view is that we need to establish outcomes in order to pursue
- outcome-based budgeting, specifically shared outcomes that go through a process and are adopted. We
- have some in the form of a few of our planning documents, but the outcomes are inconsistent in their
- design, how we measure them, et cetera.
- You know, I understand and appreciate what Isabelle is saying. At the same time, I'm not sure tracking
- spending on priority areas gets us any closer or gives us anything really meaningful or actionable with
- outcome-based budgeting. To make an intervention based on our ability to meet or not meet outcomes,
- like the amount of money you spend really
- theoretically has something to do with that, but not really. I think it's how effective are our strategies
- and the personnel we have and the things to the extent we're operating programs or prioritizing spending
- in kind of one way or another that goes beyond staff dollars, personnel dollars. The question is how
- effective are those dollars at achieving our outcomes? And we're just very far from being able to really
- do that in any kind of systematic way.
- I think that's a lens I've always tried to bring to budgeting and governance, where we have those goals
- that are well established. But it is just, I don't know, I still feel like we can't really make progress
- until we have like a shared commitment to like what's actually needed at a high level. And like,
- like I said, you know, they're budget weeks, like, I don't think software tools and like measuring spending
- in by particular categories or subject areas or
- gold codes or whatever is like the way the way to get there personally. So like that's like zooming
- out even further like that's that's the bigger challenge here in my view. Well I'm trying to pull up
- the budget proposal for 2025. Didn't we have objectives in there? Let me see. This is two years ago.
- Where am I thinking that we did at some point have outcomes and objectives? I thought that was last
- year. Or the last year. But I'm not sure that we ever really, from that point, I'm not sure that we
- have ever really defined the outcomes. No. We've defined priorities. We've talked about priorities.
- We've talked theoretically about desirable outcomes.
- And by that, I mean, like, you know, we all want to make sure everybody has a home, like, you know,
- and that would be an outcome per se, but we haven't drilled into anything specific about, say, like,
- how much reduction or, you know, connecting all of those pieces of different priorities. Sometimes.
- I mean, I think we had some
- high level stuff in there. So just this year, when we were talking with staff about how to indicate
- what are you doing and what are the measurements you're using? What are you tracking that would indicate
- that you're doing meaningful work on the right things? And we included that in presentations rather
- than the budget book this time. There's always a rush to get the numbers right for the budget book that takes
- until the last minute to get all that lined up. And so I thought it would be better for staff to be
- able to have a little bit more time to focus on that in the presentation and also to make sure that
- everybody heard it. So one of the pieces of feedback we've gotten in the past is the budget book is
- so long, I don't read it all. And so we're always worried if we're putting really important information
- in this enormous document, how do we make sure that you and the public
- can digest and see what's most important. So I think that's something I would love to get out of these
- conversations is what's helpful to have in presentations versus the budget book, should they just repeat
- each other, which I've always thought is kind of a waste of space, but maybe that is how we should do
- it. You know, open to suggestion. And because you have departments that have really broad
- you know, it's easy for street to talk about how many lane miles they're paving and how many potholes
- they're filling. Their mission is pretty narrow. For other departments that have a broader scope, it's
- harder to figure out in the 20 minutes you have, what do you pull out? So I think what would be helpful
- for us would be, you know, understanding what are the most important things to track and getting those
- outcomes narrowed down to
- an annual budget-based metric, if that's what we want. So to use, for example, you know, the investments
- you make in housing in one year might take a really long time to actually materialize. Like if we give
- a, we'll talk about tax credit, it's years before it's actually built and you can see what's happening.
- So there might be leading indicators, lagging indicators that you would be interested in seeing. And
- I think it would be,
- helpful to take things down from the top level of we want more housing to what is the metric that would
- help us all feel like we can see that we're doing something that we hope will, by the time
- it all materializes, have an impact. I would say the same thing with homelessness is also an issue.
- So the priority you guys shared this year is actually the mission for heading home, but that's not
- heading homes mission is not an outcome we can measure here in the city on an annual basis tied to what
- we're doing. So that's what would be super helpful for us. And I take Matt's point about, you know,
- what's more important? Is it the math on the budget, which is hard, or is it the outcomes? And I think
- that's been an important lesson we've learned this year is that while there's interest in the numbers,
- you guys are also equally interested in the outcomes, which isn't tied necessarily to
- the numbers that could be tracked in different ways. So that's my team. Long answer, sorry. Go ahead,
- Ray. So my question is related to large anticipated expenditures, big capital projects that looks like
- we've got quite a few in the queue. And it's related to
- Well, first of all, you know, we're drawing down reserves, we're anticipating various rate increases
- or tax increases, et cetera, et cetera. And what really caught my attention was the utilities budget.
- And during the utilities budget, yeah, put up a slide, and it had a anticipated cost of the new estimated
- design of the utility service center, Winston Thomas,
- $2.5 million and $2.3 million more for managerial services. Now, utilities has their own budget. They've
- got extremes of revenue coming in. They're spending it without essentially my okay. However, they're
- spending money anticipating a bond that the city council is going to be basically sending off. And a
- rate increases that are going to be
- anticipated that we approved. So my question then to Cal was, well, how much of the new rate increase
- is going to be devoted to that service from the community utility center that's going to be 15 million
- or whatever it's going to be? And she couldn't tell me. She said, well, it'd be costly endeavor to basically
- come up with that estimate. And I was like, well, because we have to pay a consultant and stuff like
- that. And it kind of struck me as like,
- Shouldn't be that mysterious. I don't know. I'm not an accountant. I know there are times probably here.
- But the point is that if you're going to have a rate increase, you're going to factor in your expenditures,
- your maintenance, everything that you need to keep up inflation, everything that needs to be including
- anticipated debt service for paying a bond that's got to be there.
- especially for something as large as that. So I'm just kind of like, how do I get this information?
- Because it seems to me it's relevant to my saying, okay, we're gonna go ahead and do that.
- And just to finish, having those sum costs already for new service center almost obligates me then in
- terms of like coming forward with a bond and saying we need a new utility service center. And by the
- way, we spent five million already. So that would be a waste, wouldn't it? It's kind of a,
- you know, cart before the horse kind of thing. I'm like, I ain't gonna get locked in to saying, well,
- I don't know, at least $5 million we've already spent. You know, this sort of thing gives me a sense
- that I'm not in control of the decision as much as I would like to be. So. Well, I mean, I think that's
- a great question. You know, that service center had been in this especially long before this administration.
- So this is a long-standing conversation and
- I remember when we first came into office and they asked the same thing, like, do we need this? Are
- there other options? Like, why are we doing this? So I think this is one of the central challenges we
- face for staff when we get to the budget is the scope of what they have to talk about, including one
- piece like the service center is so big. How do you provide enough information
- in print in your 20 minute presentation to cover all those grants. So for the rate case, I know that
- they go through a process where they assemble the list of every possible project they need that could
- be used. And then they worked with bond counseling with their consultants to figure out what would the
- rate be and that all went through the IURC. So there is a very rigorous process to justify
- the rate case, get public feedback on the rate case, it goes through a very long process to get to that.
- And then the rate case revenues are what is pledged against the bond. So the bond is not on top of the
- rate case. The rate case exists so that you have the stream of revenue coming in that will back the
- bond. So in some ways, if you object to the bond, object to the rate case sooner because they're late.
- the purpose of the bond is to get the money that you will gradually get from Red Case Call at once to
- be able to fix the project. So I don't have a great solution to that because what you're asking is,
- how can we present an 18 month or a five year process in that context? And I struggle with that too.
- So- Well, we don't have to be confined to the budget process. I mean, maybe we need more frequent updates
- from particularly CDU on their long-term
- Projects and how they're moving towards them. I mean you're not confined to the 20 minutes. Yeah, sorry
- I don't even know what that service center looks like other than a rendering from the exterior. That's
- just one facade I don't know what it consists of. What do you need it? Is there been an explanation
- for me to me same? I mean there may be a very good reason public works does was that they said the same
- problems public works does very expensive. Yeah, yeah sitting outside says
- They call it the service center, but it's a bigger facility than that. Yeah, and I just, and my question
- then will be, well, have you thought about other alternatives? I know you've got to put them outside.
- I see, I drive by it, and I see like the MCCSE has school buses. Some of them, they're under, they're
- under a carport, essentially. You know, the worst weather. I realize that. Anyway. Well, I mean, I guess
- I would also point out, yeah, customer authority is actually on the USB and, you know,
- I think often we assumed within the city that if there was a council member who was on the supervising
- board, that there's information that's shared or that, you know, if you have questions, Matt would know
- much more than I would about this process. He's been on the USB a long time and has seen all the ins
- and outs of the great case and everything else going forward. So, yeah, I'm not trying to pawn off the
- question. I'm just saying that, you know, that's there's another resource. That's also fair. And, and, um,
- We've never, we've talked about this a little bit at the council before too. I mean, this is getting
- a little beyond the purview of budget, but I appreciate the nexus that Councilman Rall is bringing,
- but we've never really had a structured process. I mean, I can, certainly I can try to do better with
- transportation and commissioning and USB both, which I both, you know, are the two that I sit on of
- like bringing like major updates by way of like for awareness or something like that. But it's always
- been a little hard to like, without structure or a consistent approach for how we want to pursue
- updates like that as a council to kind of know what to bring. So, I mean, I can own that and I'm always
- happy to answer questions too if folks have them, but could do a better job, you know, communicating
- things that are in the works. I mean, Deputy Mayor Knapp's right, like this has been a conversation
- for a long time and the administration did question it and really look at it with scrutiny, you know,
- and they came in the door as well and it was on pause and, you know, designs were on the proceeding
- so far and we were kind of examining alternatives.
- So like this is a longer running conversation that council doesn't have visibility into. I also don't
- think council member Aralo's question is like entirely unreasonable, if not answerable in budget hearings
- itself of like a capital expenditure of this magnitude. What type of incremental cost are we talking
- about for rate payers? So I appreciate the question also. That's not something I think was discussed
- directly in these meetings I was in.
- and I do think that this is applicable in terms of this kind of specific thing because I mean this may
- be something very specific but it could be any department that has been working on some long-term project
- that suddenly it's like oh we are only hearing about this really big expensive thing at like this moment
- and that I mean that could happen anywhere and so figuring out some way maybe to communicate
- more effectively I think is the thing about some of those big projects, which may include council members
- who sit on different boards and commissions. Are you guys really not aware of the service center? This
- is a good question because coming in, I just assume this idea has been around a long time that it would
- have been enhanced even by prior. A few sentences were devoted to it here and there. I mean, you know,
- it was mentioned
- There was no, there was no case made for it. There's nothing to say, here's, you know, other than we
- have equipment that needs to be sheltered. Okay. We'll build something to shelter it then. Oh, we need
- a home and service center. Oh, well, then how much is that? What's the price tag? So this is a corollary
- to this is that just in my head, I can add up about a hundred million dollars in capital expenditures
- that we're looking at in the next couple of years. So we've got the service center. We got the,
- public works, the street department needs to be in a different facility. There's the police station
- that needs an E3 or E4 or whatever great wing for itself. For dispatch, we've got $6 or $7 million in
- capital expenditures for parts and rack. And then there's something I think we've been needing for a
- long time, and that's the fire station down on Taperow. You had it all together, it's over 100 million bucks.
- we're entering a time with a lot of economic uncertainty with a massive amount of public and private
- debt that's gonna unwind. And I wonder about taking on new debt as a city at this time and not so I
- need to prioritize. I think it might be helpful and I know the controller has been working on some overview
- documents of capital projects as we've been developing the capital plan because not all of the sources
- when we talk about acquiring debt for all these various projects
- not all of them are property pass debt that will impact residents. So a tip on does not affect property
- taxes for the police station for example. And there are options for other ones too. Some of these are
- maybe just best practices for, like if you're gonna buy a car or a house or a major purchase and you're
- like, you would finance it, you wouldn't necessarily wanna pay cash up front. So sometimes it's just
- a financing decision that makes more sense for the project.
- I think an overview of all those things might be helpful. And to just kind of lay out, you know, what
- are the things that will impact taxpayers and what are the things that don't impact taxpayers and compare
- that to our debt limit. But certainly debt is a tool that we will, we're well below our debt limit.
- Our property tax rate is well below our peers. We have lots of levers
- available, we detect inside which ones we feel comfortable using and which projects we feel merit that.
- So. Just in this kind of tangential, but tangential to what you just said, but it ties us back to the
- agenda. So I was looking at the spreadsheet of questions and I didn't see any of these questions from
- you in there. Did you not, why did you not submit the questions?
- using the process that we have. Because I like to speak in a public setting and during actual budget
- hearings. I've communicated my concern about that. We know. Much more access than utilities. So I'm
- just saying that. Please make the case for this.
- Right now, I'm asking her about like what, you know, the specifics about this, as well as some follow
- ups about it spending a lot of money for me to know how much it would be for that. Are you doing that
- by the spreadsheet? I'm just asking specific questions to utilities. But the spreadsheet is going to
- be made public or is public? Yeah, you know, I
- Okay, well, I need to, I guess what I need to communicate here is that, yeah, we're entering a new world.
- Jennifer said he's had his hand up for a while. We can't see you, Jeff, sorry. Jeff, we can just send
- you anytime. Okay, sorry, and I do just have, you guys hear me, right? Yeah. Yes. Okay, so I just had,
- I had two comments. One is kind of on the broader subject of debt.
- And that probably would be worth an agenda item on the fiscal committee just to talk about debt overall.
- Because like Gretchen mentioned, there are different kinds of debt. So for example, if we're talking
- about general obligation debt, yes, that does impact the property taxpayers, but it also comes with
- a property tax rate to service that debt. So in other words, we're not kind of eating into our future.
- by taking on general obligation debt. That is additional revenue used to finance capital projects. On
- the other hand, we do have debt like the public safety bond, which is what's called a general revenue
- bond. And that one really does eat into our future. That is debt that did not come with additional revenue
- to service it. And so that debt, we have to make those payments
- regardless of how much money we have coming in, we don't have additional money coming in to service
- those debts. And in fact, when the income tax system is restructured in 29, we may not even have enough.
- I mean, we're really gonna have to dig deeply into operations to be able to service that. So I think
- it really does. And then there's also TIF debt, which is very different and other forms of revenue.
- So I think it might be worth it to actually go through both what we have
- what we're considering and talk about it. Jeff, what was that debt that does not come with more revenue
- or does not come with general revenue bond? General revenue bonds, the public safety bond is the big
- example of that. There's also the solar panel bond. But the public safety bond is the big example of
- debt that we're just paying out of our existing revenues.
- And of course, it has to be prioritized, number one, over all other priorities for that money. So when
- ED lit disappears, for example, the paying of that debt is still going to have to take top priority.
- But general obligation debt is not the same. General obligation debt actually comes with an additional
- revenue stream to service it.
- So that was my general comment on debt. And I think we could have that conversation where I can actually
- show you in detail both what we already have and what we're considering. Then to go back to the utilities
- issue, I think just to throw in one more piece to the Waterworks Bond, I think part of one of the issues
- is also that the council has actually already heard and approved
- the utilities bond back in 95, or at 25, sorry, in September of 25. So that is a particularly long time
- between the council approval and the actual issuance of the debt. But you all in September of 25 approved
- the issuance of $71 million in Waterworks revenue bonds. And so this first
- bonds that though that the utilities the utilities is working on right now is really just the first
- tranche of So really from the back to the council there are no more gate there are no more approval
- gates The only connection is going to be for example councilmember Flaherty who serves on the utility
- service board So the new service center is not going to come before us Is a bond
- I can't say that there won't be aspects of it that would not have to come before you. I don't know the
- plan, indeed. I don't know the plan any more than you do. I just know the bond right now that you have
- already brought me $1 million in Waterworks utilities revenue bonds. And this is just the first tranche
- of that. That did not include the service center in its entirety. Why? OK. Well, Jeff.
- Just a follow up. So we have an example of an economic downturn in 2008 that had various implications
- for revenue. Do you work on scenarios related to anticipating things like that? Did we lose you? Yes.
- Jeff, are you there?
- I mean, we certainly look at, yeah, I'm here. Yeah, did you get my question? Did that discussion be
- part of our fiscal committee talking about different scenarios? Anyway, I don't want to take a lot of
- time. I can talk in this person on this. Sorry.
- Gretchen has to have another meeting at nine, that's why I should have said that. Yes, sorry, I've got
- bad connection, but yes. Okay, I'm sorry. Well, I was not paying attention to what was happening. Does
- Matt have a, Matt, do you have anything to say about the water works bond that we approved, whether
- that includes, how much of it includes the,
- Service Center. I was looking for my memory as well. So this was passed on September 30th of last year.
- I was actually on vacation that week and missed the meeting myself. Councilmembers Ruff and I were both
- absent. And I'm just looking at it. There is mention of the Service Center in the context of it. I'm
- sure controller Kim's, you know, I assume he's right, but. Yeah, look, if you look at exhibit A,
- Which is just a list of descriptions of projects. Yep. And one of them is a new service center. Yeah.
- Yeah. I have a vague memory of thinking like, well, $1 million isn't nearly enough for a service center.
- So it was one of those like, well, it's a little bit here and a little bit there and thinking about
- it as a study. But I'm not sure that we need to keep on
- detouring about that specific thing. And what I have written down here as a summary is that we need
- to maybe figure out ways that large capital expenditures could get more or different airtime besides
- just bonds and besides just like the yearly budget, because they are big projects and they don't happen
- overnight.
- But sometimes I think it does maybe feel like from a council perspective, they do have it overnight
- because we don't see all of those details that have gone in beforehand. And then they do come to present
- to us because there's been so much work that's put into it. They may do have to summarize and skip things
- and make judgment calls about what is the thing they're going to put the most emphasis on. And so figuring
- out some way to do that
- that would enhance communication in general with council members about those big projects. So that's
- what I wrote down as the conclusion of that conversation. Is that good? Great. That's great. Okay. Dave,
- I would love to revisit the written question issue though, because for me, another, another,
- reason to have them written and have them on that public sheet is so that I can go through at the end
- and read what questions other people have. And especially for me as a new council member, like relatively
- new, so right, like this is my third year, I still feel like that's pretty new, especially compared
- to some of y'all. You know, like thinking about it in terms of like, oh, what did some other people
- ask? What did some other people see?
- you know, and I know that one of your emphases tends to be on large projects as opposed to minutiae
- in general. And so that's kind of this interesting piece to me. And there are some trends for sure with
- what different council members like to ask. So are you gonna put any of those questions on that sheet
- or have you just like, is it not a normalized thing? Like how can,
- Like, is there anything that would be easier for you to engage in that way, just? You know, I'm saying
- I'm actually writing a memo to all of you in this, with the controller, just saying, I don't think it's
- taking on any more debt unless it's absolutely essential right now to the city. And it, and I don't,
- I don't, I understand the perspective that relative to other cities that, you know, we're in a vulnerable
- place, I think we're going into uncharted territory.
- So I brought this up before, but I'm happy to do it on that forum and, you know, just communicate that
- going forward. It might help to explain my words against dipping on new bonds, you know. I think that
- would be good, but I'm also thinking about anything else that you might have had, like any other questions
- or any other, like, pieces, or they're a mouthful of anything. I'm happy to just, you know, formally we had,
- Actually, it's interesting because we used to have much more in-depth budget presentations for the public,
- and we've gone to sort of the short form right now. People give a very brief introduction a little bit.
- I like to just put the questions in the public meeting to whoever's presenting it. I think that's my
- preference.
- because the presentations are not as in depth. And so then you're asking questions, trying to get the
- depth. Well, it's more likely to be, obviously, observed. And people are watching a budget hearing because
- it's within the council record. And you find you have enough time during council budget hearings to
- ask all the questions you want to ask?
- I think mine are mostly related to a couple of subjects that I have someone to ask. I mean, I am doing
- some follow up just to, you know, and I did CC everybody about my follow up questions. Well, that's
- where like follow up questions should go on the Google form. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Like in terms of that
- transparency and that like, you know, this like that's,
- And I don't think I want to say anything like that. It's not that they should go on the Google forum.
- It's that the system that we've developed this year is a system to put them on the Google forum. But
- if there's a different system, and of course that's partly because, you know, open door and like not
- really, like we shouldn't CC everybody. And that also honestly like blocks up emails when we do that.
- And I would far rather sit down, like personally, I would far rather sit down and go to this one place
- and get all the things when I'm like,
- ready to spend a couple hours doing that, then do it piecemeal. Sure. In my inbox. So is there a system
- that you prefer? No, that's fine. I didn't realize it was a problem for people. But if that is, then
- happy to go along with that. I was just saying, it's not so much a problem.
- we could benefit from seeing your follow ups and the answers to them. Right. Yeah. Okay. So I had a,
- I had a phone question. Did you, you know, um, one thing that I found out with this large expenditure
- coming was really into the police station. And I met with the mayor. She extended an invitation to,
- I think you met with Jerry. You met with her.
- Not recently. Okay. Did she extend an invitation? I have a schedule. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So she'll probably
- tell you, um, I think it should have been part of the budget presentation, but it's a, it's a big expenditure
- from the police station. And, um, I just, I just wanted to put that out there because I think that this
- is something that it's related to this idea that we have all these large expenditures and
- there's nowhere that I can find a list of them, let alone like a random priority, like where they're
- just coming at us. And how am I supposed to evaluate, like if I am going to sign off on that, like obviously
- public safety is very priority. You know, we need facilities is that, you know, I'm not gonna do it
- at the, should I do a service center at the expense of et cetera.
- You know, there needs to be some sort of prioritization. And I think that the, you know, facing a hundred
- million dollars in the next couple of years of these kinds of expenses. I'll put that on Google. Yeah.
- So just since we are in a public meeting, the thing that the mayor has been chatting with us about is
- that the, if the,
- property at the corner of Rogers and 1st Street becomes a police station. There's a proposal to put
- the central dispatch there as well, but that would require or that would preferably come with
- some solidifying a part of the building to make it withstand natural disasters so that our central dispatch
- wouldn't survive a tornado or whatever. And that's another significant
- I was responding to some other things. I think so control my Kim's hand actually just went up if he
- wanted to spent respond directly to that item that you all just brought up. I would defer to him first. Okay.
- Yeah, go ahead, Jeff. Specifically, maybe, I don't know if you can talk about that running list of large
- projects and whether you could talk about that. I think, yeah, I mean, that's certainly part of our
- intention is to create a more holistic capital plan, a capital improvement plan. And I think a budget
- presentation as well, that's certainly going to be a priority.
- for us even for the rest of this year. But in terms of what council sees and whether it's part of the
- budget process, et cetera, that has to do with the funding, the actual funding mechanism. So for example,
- the police station, if the redevelopment commission even approves it, the redevelopment commission has
- not heard it yet or has not approved the request yet. That bond would go through
- commission process. And then expenditures has never been part of the annual council budget process because
- you don't appropriate it. You do have to approve the bonds, but you don't appropriate the funds. So
- that's one reason why the police station would never have been part of the annual budget process.
- That said, it certainly is in the mix of all the property. Jeff, you kind of went in and out there,
- but I think
- One of the things that I got out of that was that the budget process includes expenses we have to appropriate
- for the next year, which seems appropriate, but maybe then there's still that idea out there that we
- need to have something else that includes other types of expenses that aren't necessarily those specifically
- appropriated expenses, long-term capital being maybe the primary thing that we're talking about right now.
- But anything else that might also need a bond? I'm not sure. Whether any of our coffee things. Yes,
- I agree. Nevermind. Can I follow up? Yeah, go for it. Are you changing the subject now? Only a little bit.
- that it is 913, we need to have a public comment. We need to talk about fiscal committee goals. So can
- you maybe wrap this up with a last comment about budget stuff? Yes. It's two comments. One is actually
- about the topic we were just talking about, that I would agree that more conversation and effort applied
- to capital planning, including with this committee and with the council, would be very, very welcome,
- including all the different types of debt we have, how we service it, and what the options are. And
- just thinking of a few examples, too, like the solar bonds were mentioned, but of course those are
- Offset by energy savings. So, like, there's differences in what's being paid for and what's not. Similarly.
- We were talking in a parking meeting this week or the transportation commission. That, you know, we
- had about 50Million dollars of debt on 2 parking garages that are being exclusively surfaced serviced
- by TIF. The consolidated TIF we do have. Apparently now excess parking system revenues that are going
- to repaving for instance, which we appropriated this week or re appropriated this week. And so.
- those are real conversations we could be having if you incrementally raise parking rates and apply excess
- parking system revenues like parking meter funds as a portion of debt service that frees up additional,
- you know, money that's going elsewhere and things like that. So like that's that's a part of the conversation
- I like to have. I just wanted to draw attention to a few examples like that of like, it's not simply
- how much was the debt, what's servicing it end of story. Like there are other questions about how we
- can make adjustments there and you know, that kind of thing. The other thing I wanted to say briefly is just
- We're drawing us back again to outcome-based budgeting. I've kind of lost optimism that this administration
- or this council is going to make progress on this. We can keep trying, but I'm just looking at some
- of the presentations to draw back to the packet for today, I guess, and looking at things like the highlights
- that departments tried to draw us. Here in the police budget, it says overall vehicle accidents decreased
- by 6.99%. Personal injury crashes decreased 16%.
- That's, that's a metric, but like, what does that tell us? You know what I mean? Like, did any of that
- have anything to do with policing? Probably not. Uh, like probably have to do with planning
- and transportation and or just like noise in the data. And so it's just like, it's just an illustration.
- And there are other things like that throughout all sorts of presentations that I appreciate the effort
- to sort of say like, Hey, what's gone well? Like, what, what can we highlight that we did or saw,
- you know, CFRD was like, we serve this much food, you know, like those are, that's great. But like,
- if it's divorced from any like rational system of like goals and metrics tracked over time, it's meaningless
- ultimately. And like that's kind of again, illustrating the problem. Like, and so that's not something
- the council alone can fix. We can't just like simply have a few meetings and show up and be like, here's
- the set of outcomes leading and lagging indicators for the next 10 years for the city of Bloomington.
- Like this is a process to invest in. We probably would need expert support and help. And it would have
- to have real buy-in from the mayor's administration and the council to work together on something like that.
- Um, so again, I don't have a lot of hope or optimism for that, but I think, uh, I value it and appreciate
- that the council had unanimous support for going this direction. And if we want to keep talking about
- what it will actually take, I think, you know, I think we should. So there's my comments. Thanks. Okay.
- Um, that's actually a pretty good segue into our, the next thing I want to talk about, which is this
- role, but first we need to go to public comment on budget. Um, so we don't have any public comment in
- the room, but I see a few people online.
- So if you could raise your hand if you're interested in commenting. That would be great. I think that's
- probably Mr. Keough there. KRKCP with a hand raised when you're... Sophia, if you could ask him to unmute.
- And then go ahead. Can you hear me?
- Yep, you have, uh, please state your name for the record and then you'll have three minutes and I'm
- finding out how much. All right. Kevin Keogh, since public involvement in the future role of this committee
- are both on today's agenda, I'd like to ask a broader question. What role does the council want informed
- public participation to play in the city's financial oversight and budget process? I ask that sincerely.
- As you know, I'm a retired CPA, a practicing internal auditor, 50 years of accounting, auditing, internal
- controls, and information systems.
- When I participate in these meetings, I'm not simply interested in offering an opinion about whether
- I like or dislike a particular expenditure. I believe citizens can also add value by examining public
- financial information, asking questions, identifying risk, and bringing relevant professional knowledge
- into the discussion. The recent public safety and PSAP lit discussion provides an example. These discussions
- raise questions for me concerning fund accounting, internal controls,
- budget to actual results, intergovernmental funding, staffing, reserves, and financial forecasting.
- Rather than reaching conclusions prematurely, I've decided to take approach at both questions the same
- way I would approach a professional internal audit engagement. So I'm developing a formal risk assessment
- and control evaluation. I intend to identify the applicable criteria, identify and rank the risk, obtain
- supporting records, evaluate the internal controls,
- test the available evidence and let the evidence determine my conclusions. If completed, I hope to produce
- a report that can be shared publicly. That brings us back to the role of public participation.
- Is that the kind of citizen involvement useful to this committee and to the council? And if it is, how
- should citizens bring that work forward so it can actually contribute to the council's decision making?
- Three minutes of public comments is valuable for expressing an opinion, but is not particularly well
- suited to presenting financial analysis, explaining internal control concerns, or discussing supporting evidence.
- As this committee considers its future role, I encourage you to consider whether it could also provide
- a structured way for citizens with relevant knowledge to contribute substantive financial analysis.
- That does not mean that council should accept the citizens' conclusions. Quite the opposite. Good analysis
- should be questions, tested, and challenged, whether it comes from the administration, council member,
- consultants, or the public.
- Council has expressed an interest outcome-based budgeting. I believe the same principle applies to public
- involvement. The question shouldn't be, did we provide opportunity for public comment? The better question
- is, did public participation add value to the decision-making process? I would welcome guidance from
- this committee about how citizens like me can best contribute to that value. Thank you. Thank you.
- That was an interesting comment. I think I see one other hand up. Mr. M.G., if you want to go ahead
- and unmute and state your name for the record. Good morning, Fiscal Committee. This is Christopher M.G.
- from the Greater Bloomington Chamber of Commerce. I just want to say I appreciate Council Member Rollo
- raising the debt and fiscal prudence in regards to SB 1 and creating that uncertainty in future revenues.
- And I appreciate Controller McKim's insight on the city's debt. I'd encourage to have the committee
- come back and have Jeff do his debt 101 and kind of get us all on the same page on what that means.
- I mean, so what we owe and what comes back, what rolls off in our capacity, this way we're all speaking
- the same language, I think, because it's complicated. And if we all have at least a general understanding
- of some of these things, it makes the conversation, I think, at a higher level.
- But I wanna broaden that conversation a little bit, that we still have to recall that like 80% of the
- city's operating budget is personnel. So the necessary capital investments have cost and deserve scrutiny,
- but they should be more on opportunity costs. We should be looking at, well, we only have this amount
- of money, that's project A or B. But the bonds have like a finance of a beginning, middle, and personnel
- costs do not. Salaries, benefits, COLA and all that become part of the recurring
- based costs every year. So with SB1 looming, that reoccurring cost structure ultimately has a bigger
- fiscal challenge and that fiscal prudence means understanding our debt, but also means being careful
- about permanent obligation as we build during this constraining and sort of uncertainty that we all
- are facing right now. So thank you for your time. I always appreciate starting my Friday mornings with
- the fiscal committee. Thank you. There's also several chats at the moment.
- I will read these chats if they are applicable. Property tax revenues depend on property tax assessments,
- not merely the rate.
- Accurate council can require by passage of legislation that formal review events before council. Yes.
- Just going back to that rate thing, council only gets to decide the rate that we don't have any effect
- on the assessment assessments.
- Those reporting and review events can be required by legislation. That's kind of the same. Discussing
- these matters in public rather than by email is appropriate. I think that's probably about the budget
- stuff. In other words, council has authority to require council involvement in the form of actual approval
- steps. So the grading level, yeah, all of that's the same. Confidence comes from process. Research and
- exercise of council authority is separate from executive decisions.
- Why does the council feel hamstrung by executives? All right. Those were all good questions too. Can
- you make sure to send me those chats just so that you have, thank you. And those were all from Eric,
- thank you. All right. Hang on. I need to move to agenda number three for this whole committee roll.
- Okay, because I'm 923 and we kind of have a commitment to get out of here at 930 and this,
- This part of the question, uh, questioning for me is kind of relevant because it is September at this
- point. This is a special committee, not a, um, not a standing committee, which means that every year
- it could like, go away. And it started out as being a special committee, partly because we were experimenting
- with it for the first time. Um, I am personally of the opinion that we should keep it and it should
- be elevated to a standing committee, but I, and I'm,
- totally good with doing the legislation to make that happen sometimes before the end of the year, as
- long as y'all are also on board with that and supportive of that. So before I go any further, is there
- anybody not supportive here of making this a standing committee? I'm enthusiastically supportive. Great.
- So the bigger question is, let's leave out from base budgeting. Well, we can't really leave it.
- So we may not be able to finish this conversation here now, but we need to look at these roles that
- are in the original charge of the committee that is in the packet to work closely with the controller
- for various things, be responsible for supporting council staff with budget, continue the work started
- by the ad hoc salary committee related to the elected salary framework and explore and recommend improvements
- to the budgeting process. That was the original charge.
- So we make this a standing committee. How does that need to change in terms of that original charge?
- Are there things that are still applicable? Are there things that are not applicable? If we want to
- each take maybe a minute to give me some feedback on that so that then maybe over the next month or
- so I can start working on that legislation, that would be great. Who wants to go first? So I don't know what
- track progress of the yearly budget and her means? I assume that that is like the quarterly reports.
- Okay. Okay. I have not been reporting back to the whole council. No, you're right. We have not been.
- So, the question is, should be, should we report, should we be reporting back
- quarterly reports to the whole council. Any quick answer for that, yes, no? Probably yes. I support
- verbal reports for some of that, like we talked about recently. Okay. And I think that one of the things
- with verbal reports, and this is another Title II amendment, I'm pretty sure that reports from committees
- in Title II say they have to be written reports. Right.
- we could maybe amend that in some way. So maybe that's something that it's kind of like been on my mind
- that maybe we should amend that so that to leave some space for verbal reports. All right, any other
- feedback on that reporting? Yeah, I mean, it can be so involved that a verbal report might be difficult
- in a time law. And so maybe in,
- Reflecting on a suggestion about, you know, civic involvement, maybe deliberation sessions should be
- allocated for council for a report and also input from citizens who have expertise or who have certain
- perspectives. All right, so maybe
- Maybe we could loosen up the phrasing so it's work to council on public and then we can leave open how.
- And what about adding something about tracking that. Yes.
- discussing upcoming projects that would be worth it. Similarly, we have verbally talked about
- the administration bringing fee increases through this, which is something that's going to happen regarding
- sanitation fees. But I will add something about that too.
- I mean, speed increases. All right, anything else? Should I try to add something about outcome-based
- budgeting or support for budget processes? Because should it be outcome-based budgeting specifically,
- or should it be? I mean, we have number four, explore and recommend improvements. Would that be captioned
- in? I don't know. So here's one reflection.
- on what Matt said earlier about outcome-based budgeting, and he's right on target when it comes to public
- safety reports that crashes are down 15%. What does it mean? What does that mean? It doesn't mean anything
- unless you've got a trend line, unless we can see, and you've got an outcome maybe over here, and the
- trend is going toward it or away or whatever. But if you have a yearly sort of progress,
- We can just graph it. It's got to be the information there on the Excel spreadsheet. We can see what
- happened in the last five years. Are we getting closer further away? And that really would help the
- outcome-based process. And the logical theory of what caused that change, right? That's the other piece
- of it too. I feel like that brings us back actually to the conversation that we were having before
- about what it is that we might want for next year, which is trend lines over five years with any data
- or any metrics like accident or crashes or road repairs, et cetera. And then ideally,
- buying metrics to Google slash platforms. And we got some of that in street, right? With the whole thing
- about like the sidewalks and the investment in the sidewalks and the investment in, yeah. So we got
- a little of that in a couple of different places, but more of that would be helpful. Okay. Going back
- to kind of like our mission statement. I think it's not hearing me now, so I need to go to public comment
- about this.
- If you are a member of public and wanting to comment hopefully relatively quickly on this committee's
- charge and purpose and any thoughts that you may have about making it a standing committee versus a
- special committee and what we should be doing as a committee. We already did hear one thing from Mr.
- Keough about
- receiving information from the public, essentially. And I see him with his hand raised again. Go ahead
- and unmute, and you'll have three minutes. Go ahead. He's muted again. Hang on. You're muted again.
- I'm sorry. Can you hear me now?
- Yeah, I think you should really consider about elevating your stature, so to speak, and looking into
- becoming an audit committee and look at other cities that have developed audit committees and would
- have professional staff who are independent of the day to day operations who can add value to the,
- you know, to your discussion by presenting independent.
- based on a risk assessment, things you should be looking at in depth and giving you that type of information.
- So I know other cities in Indiana do have audit committees and have internal auditors. And I think it
- would be something that would be of great value to the community. And I think it would put a lot more
- framework and structure into what you're doing. Because it comes with, an audit committee has certain,
- it should have a charter and it should be looking at
- doing specific things. So anyway, that's my position. That's my suggestion. I know it's difficult and
- it takes funding and all that stuff, but I think it's something you should consider. Okay, thank you
- very much. Anybody else online with comments about Smitty's charge of purpose? Okay, seeing no others.
- Thank you guys. If you have any other thoughts on this,
- Go ahead and let me know as I'm working on this piece of legislation on the goal of me to do it for
- them. Yeah. Do you want to see the additional chats that will be submitted? How does fiscal committee
- relate to budget committee? Verbal reports are federal. Written reports become farther written public
- record. Economic conditions change when debt is durable. Highlight that distinction. OK. I'll send those along.
- That would be great. We don't have a budget committee anymore. The budget committee was a budget task
- force specifically related to outcome-based budgeting. It was also assigned by the president, Ad Hoc,
- and the president this year decided not to do that this year. So it's just been the fiscal committee.
- And so that is a point, like, you know, should I look back at the budget task forces purposes and see
- if some of that should get molded into this committee? Which I think is one thing that I know I'm great
- about, and I have that in mind.
- So moving on to budget-related dates, just so that you all know, the county did indeed authorize having
- a must task force related to SB1, the Municipal Unit Strategic Task Force. Jeff, if you've not already
- received an invitation related to that, you should soon. And the other thing that I wanted to make sure
- to mention is
- you know I've been kind of keeping this like fiscal committee calendar like a yearly calendar and I
- do want to try to have some sort of calendar in November or December that we kind of approve that informs
- the 2027 committee. So please get back to me on anything you think might need to go on that as you review
- this. Also in our future meeting dates our next meeting is September 18th. I put down there that we're
- having the
- I learned yesterday, the day before from Gretchen that sanitation is also going to have a memo
- and information about their proposed fee increase. So that is going to be in that meeting. So the elected
- official salary is revisited. Honestly, I'm going to de-prioritize that a little bit because I think
- it's probably more important to do the sanitation fee conversation and make sure that we have
- plenty of time for that discussion because we just need to get the elected official salary stuff in
- before the end of the year. October, then I have quarter three financial summaries. So Jeff, that may
- get pushed to the 16th of October, depending on how the elected official salary stuff goes. And then
- there was some other suggestion on what we needed to do for a future meeting. Oh, I know.
- I'm thinking maybe on the comment that we got related to Jeff basically giving a bond 101 kind of thing.
- I'm not sure that that should be in this committee versus maybe we need to have that for the whole council.
- The whole council needs to have a bond 101 workshop. And that one of the other things I think that was
- an original charge of this committee was
- are recommending CF work closely with the controller to recommend scheduling of specific budget related
- discussions, presentations, and education for the full council. So I think that maybe I might try to,
- and I'm meeting with Jeff next week about a bond, the no bond issue this year. So maybe we can schedule
- some sort of education night for all council members, basically a working session slash educational
- moment. And maybe it would be
- Maybe it'd be more like public sessions or public counseling. Anyway, Jeff, let's talk about that next
- week. That was all. Questions, comments, Isabel? I don't want to lose sight of ways that we could improve
- the budget process, especially the public engagement piece and the follow-up council member question
- piece because I think both
- Well, we didn't, once again, we had very few members of the public engaged during the hearings. And
- we have very few council members who have submitted questions through the form that was used this year,
- which admittedly was a little more confusing in the past. So I wonder if those two, let's just put a
- pin in those to discuss. Yes, I agree with that.
- Yes. Yes. I feel like that was definitely half a conversation, because more than the full hour talking
- about that kind of feedback. Yeah. Matt, did you have something else that you want to say? Just briefly,
- I agree that a broader kind of 101 and discussion of different types of debt, how we service it,
- et cetera, would be great for the Council as a whole. I'd also like this committee to dig deeper on
- capital planning
- That service and like, it's the level of depth that we would get to it in an all council session. Like,
- I think it's limited and it will probably require some discussion over time. Okay. All right. So, so
- maybe that needs to be. Part of this committee is so adding something about.
- about long-term capital planning into the fiscal committees. I think that's terrific. It's a big part
- of, yeah, city finances and fiscal oversight and it gets a little lost in the annual budgeting cycle
- for sure. Or can. All right. Perfect. Perfect. Okay. Any other last words? I may be assuming on the
- 18th. Okay. Dave may be assuming Matt and Isabella if you could flip your calendars. I'll be in person.
- Perfect. Perfect. Okay. Early heads up. I think I'll miss the meeting after that. The, the 1. In the
- end of October or beginning of October, either. Okay. Okay. Great. All right. Thank you guys so much.
- Have a great day. Have a great weekend and we are adjourned.