WEBVTT 00:00:00.994 --> 00:00:09.679 - Thank you all for making the time to be here for us to discuss the job descriptions. Hopefully, we will 00:00:09.679 --> 00:00:18.615 - have enough time to go through both the, well, we'll have to talk a little bit about what we're proposing, 00:00:18.615 --> 00:00:26.214 - I guess, first to make sure we're all on the same page of that, and then we can go through 00:00:26.214 --> 00:00:30.974 - the job descriptions. But present at the meeting, hello. 00:00:31.266 --> 00:00:39.160 - Council Member Rollo, it's okay. You really don't need to clean it. We will be totally fine. We'll clean 00:00:39.160 --> 00:00:46.679 - it afterwards. Leave it and I'll clean it. Council Member Dave Rollo is here. Council Member Sidney 00:00:46.679 --> 00:00:54.423 - Zulek is here. And we'll be participating online with Council Member Piedmont Smith. And we are joined 00:00:54.423 --> 00:00:58.558 - by Clerk McDowell. And I'm here, my one would suppose. 00:00:58.690 --> 00:01:10.640 - Okay, so I was hoping just in terms of agenda for us first to hello. No, this is that well yeah you 00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:22.591 - guys need to set up with where we have the room to win. So six they started six. So you need to get 00:01:22.591 --> 00:01:26.654 - it. Yeah. Yeah, come on, come on. 00:01:26.914 --> 00:01:34.664 - Okay, so I was hoping we could just maybe quickly come to some agreement. It doesn't have to be as quick, 00:01:34.664 --> 00:01:42.267 - but we have some agreements about what we think the best structure to aim for is here. One of our tasks 00:01:42.267 --> 00:01:49.651 - is to present the whole council, ideally tomorrow, but if we're not ready to do that, we can push it 00:01:49.651 --> 00:01:55.646 - off. But to present the whole council with some possibilities, I think we had the 00:01:56.002 --> 00:02:01.676 - the exec session where we talked about some of the, we didn't make any decisions, obviously, and we 00:02:01.676 --> 00:02:07.464 - did not deliberate on any of this, but we did get a briefing on what the different ways that we could 00:02:07.464 --> 00:02:13.309 - organize if we're seeking to, for example, split the administrator role. So hoping we could talk about 00:02:13.309 --> 00:02:19.267 - that. And then once we agree on what direction we think we're going, and we can talk about the specifics 00:02:19.267 --> 00:02:23.806 - of the job description. So does that seem fine? Yeah, I mean, please go for it. 00:02:24.290 --> 00:02:33.346 - since we don't have much time. I think it's a terrible idea to split positions. I think that we've had 00:02:33.346 --> 00:02:42.401 - an effective administrator slash attorney in the past in Dan Sherman, Steve Lucas, I think Nash served 00:02:42.401 --> 00:02:51.369 - that role. I think really the only outlier was Lisa. And what I see, I mean, I'm just concerned about 00:02:51.369 --> 00:02:54.270 - guarding the council's autonomy. 00:02:54.370 --> 00:03:01.805 - its ability to, I mean, you know, what I see is obviously packet preparation, scheduling, somebody who 00:03:01.805 --> 00:03:09.096 - understands what we need, who can advocate for us. Somebody who can ask questions that we would ask. 00:03:09.096 --> 00:03:16.603 - That's what Dan would do. He would sort of pair, and he wrote good summaries. I'd like to see us return 00:03:16.603 --> 00:03:23.966 - to good summaries again, because we're all working part-time. And so having a dense packet with like, 00:03:24.098 --> 00:03:31.725 - you know, very little in terms of narrative. Yep. You know, that's suboptimal. And we need somebody 00:03:31.725 --> 00:03:39.504 - who can direct somebody to do research when it's needed as well, which was, you know, Dan and Stephen 00:03:39.504 --> 00:03:47.588 - did that with other assistant, assistant insuring or other, you know, staff, speed up, so forth. Somebody 00:03:47.588 --> 00:03:50.334 - who's clicking their feet that can, 00:03:50.722 --> 00:03:59.609 - back up for preliminary procedure. I guess that's more of an attorney role. Somebody's quick in the 00:03:59.609 --> 00:04:08.495 - game. In other words, if the parliamentarian is struggling, we go to the attorney council attorney. 00:04:08.495 --> 00:04:17.737 - Anyway, so those are some of my thoughts on it. I think it would be a total mistake to go to surrender. 00:04:17.737 --> 00:04:20.670 - Isabel? Go ahead, Isabel. Sorry. 00:04:21.058 --> 00:04:32.031 - Can you hear me? Yes. Okay, greetings from outside of Wheeling, West Virginia. I respectfully disagree 00:04:32.031 --> 00:04:42.898 - with my colleague, Council Member Rallo. I think that it would be best to separate the two positions. 00:04:42.898 --> 00:04:50.462 - I think that it really is, there are different strengths and different 00:04:50.914 --> 00:05:00.855 - skills needed for an administrator versus for an attorney. And I think we got lucky a few times in the 00:05:00.855 --> 00:05:10.796 - past with Dan Sherman, Steven Lucas, but I think starting with Ash and into the present. That has been 00:05:10.796 --> 00:05:20.062 - part of the struggle is that some of our incumbents have really enjoyed the legal part and have 00:05:20.642 --> 00:05:28.062 - with that at the forefront while neglecting the administration part and not putting that equally on 00:05:28.062 --> 00:05:35.631 - an important level with the attorney part of the job. And I think that what we've really been lacking 00:05:35.631 --> 00:05:43.497 - is a strong administrator. And I think that's partially because we're hiring an attorney. And most people 00:05:43.497 --> 00:05:50.398 - who are trained as an attorney don't want to do the nitty gritty of administrating, which is 00:05:50.562 --> 00:05:57.787 - just as important, I think, for this job. So what I proposed in the job descriptions, and I didn't have 00:05:57.787 --> 00:06:05.082 - a lot tonight, but was having one council attorney, one council administrator, and then to have a deputy 00:06:05.082 --> 00:06:12.030 - administrator. Oh, a deputy administrator, yeah. OK, interesting. Now, how we do this as far as are 00:06:12.030 --> 00:06:20.158 - we allowed to hire somebody who is not a legal professional for state code? I think Margie said we probably are not. 00:06:20.674 --> 00:06:29.098 - So I think it would be something we'd have to work out with the administration or with the clerk's office. 00:06:29.098 --> 00:06:36.971 - But I think that's possible. Sydney? Well, I think both Dave and Isabelle brought up, excuse me, is 00:06:36.971 --> 00:06:44.845 - everyone okay if we use first names? I don't want to insult anybody. Okay, thank you. I think there 00:06:44.845 --> 00:06:49.726 - were both points made on either side. To Dave's point though, 00:06:49.826 --> 00:06:56.635 - With Dan and Stephen, they both had kind of long run ways to get used to it. And like, Dan had a longer 00:06:56.635 --> 00:07:03.576 - tenure and Stephen got to come up through the council office. So I don't know if right now we have anyone 00:07:03.576 --> 00:07:10.254 - who's ready. Well, I mean, obviously we haven't even put out the application, but I wonder the extent 00:07:10.254 --> 00:07:16.802 - to someone being able to come in fresh, like with no experience with council at all, even just city 00:07:16.802 --> 00:07:19.486 - of Bloomington. I'm a little bit worried 00:07:19.650 --> 00:07:29.046 - that that would be a very steep learning curve. But that's not to say that splitting the positions wouldn't 00:07:29.046 --> 00:07:37.832 - provide the same thing. I just wonder if multiple positions might clarify some of the priorities. So 00:07:37.832 --> 00:07:47.228 - I have a couple of thoughts on all of that. I take Dave's concern, and I think that that's the big sticking 00:07:47.228 --> 00:07:48.446 - point for me. 00:07:48.674 --> 00:07:55.989 - I think I agree almost point for point with Isabel. I'll add a couple of extra points though, a couple 00:07:55.989 --> 00:08:03.163 - of extra considerations. The first one is that last time when we posted this job, we didn't actually 00:08:03.163 --> 00:08:10.549 - get all that many applicants. Because of the fact that we added administrative role as well, the salary 00:08:10.549 --> 00:08:15.166 - was depressed. And so we basically were looking for a person who 00:08:15.650 --> 00:08:20.747 - I said we couldn't get a warrior job somewhere else, which is kind of like we so we ended up you know 00:08:20.747 --> 00:08:22.046 - kind of eliminating some. 00:08:22.306 --> 00:08:29.145 - candidates from the field in the first place, just because we've lowered what that position is. So I 00:08:29.145 --> 00:08:35.714 - do think that there's a gain point here in separating the administration role from a legal role. 00:08:35.714 --> 00:08:42.891 - In that, it means that you can pay a lawyer more and possibly attract somebody. I also think that there's 00:08:42.891 --> 00:08:49.731 - a benefit in that we could probably build an administrative role very quickly. So I think that those 00:08:49.731 --> 00:08:50.814 - are two things. 00:08:51.394 --> 00:08:58.804 - That does not mean that our lawyer would not do certain administrative tasks. I mean, I think when you 00:08:58.804 --> 00:09:06.213 - just look at the, I had it pulled up here, when you look at the legislative process, there are certain 00:09:06.213 --> 00:09:14.558 - elements of administration that are built in there, right? I'm not suggesting that what we do is essentially create 00:09:14.818 --> 00:09:20.437 - you know, this person who all they do is come in and pontificate about the law and then they leave, 00:09:20.437 --> 00:09:26.224 - right? I mean, but then all the things I think that you brought up, Dave, when I think about the whole 00:09:26.224 --> 00:09:32.123 - process of passing legislation, that to me includes quite a bit of administration, you know? But I think 00:09:32.123 --> 00:09:37.854 - that the type of administration that Isabel and I are both pointing out are the types of things like, 00:09:37.954 --> 00:09:43.681 - booking meeting rooms, manning, you know, caps meetings, you know, preparing packets, like 00:09:43.681 --> 00:09:50.478 - doing accessibility, you know, getting PDFs ready. Like the type of things that for a skilled administrator 00:09:50.478 --> 00:09:56.772 - wouldn't be hard. Hard is not the right way of saying it. Wouldn't be as hard as our administrators 00:09:56.772 --> 00:10:03.380 - have viewed it in the past, perhaps. So. And doing the budget as well. I just want to add. That's right. 00:10:03.380 --> 00:10:06.590 - I think it sets us up for conflict. I think having 00:10:06.850 --> 00:10:13.441 - that administrator and attorney, if they're going to let us, I'd rather have what you were describing, 00:10:13.441 --> 00:10:19.904 - I would rather see an administrator attorney, and then they can delegate out administrative tasks to 00:10:19.904 --> 00:10:26.623 - another higher attorney, other members in the office. They would be able to delegate things like reserve 00:10:26.623 --> 00:10:33.214 - rooms or whatever is necessary. But if you're going to have an administrator and an attorney separate, 00:10:33.214 --> 00:10:36.670 - and they could have conflict, I think it's a mistake. 00:10:36.994 --> 00:10:43.678 - go there. One last thing, why not, why not just, we had it, we've worked in the past. We had Steven, 00:10:43.678 --> 00:10:50.363 - we had Dan. We could try and have for a couple of weeks and see what comes, but it doesn't work out. 00:10:50.363 --> 00:10:57.114 - No one bites, then we can refer to separate job titles. We didn't have, we had the natural experiment 00:10:57.114 --> 00:11:04.063 - of doing this last time, right? So, and I don't know if there's gonna be- Yeah, but that's what we need, 00:11:04.063 --> 00:11:05.982 - if we can work this, I mean, 00:11:06.082 --> 00:11:12.385 - You know, it's just, that could be a one-off, it can work. I think we should think about what would 00:11:12.385 --> 00:11:18.940 - make the job, just any job in council more appealing. Cause I remember last time we really did not have 00:11:18.940 --> 00:11:25.369 - a lot of applicants. So what could we do that would be like incentivizing to get people, whether it's 00:11:25.369 --> 00:11:31.798 - lawyers or, I liked Isabel's idea of, oh, I see that Isabel has her hand up. I liked Isabel's idea of 00:11:31.798 --> 00:11:35.454 - a deputy administrator, maybe like something a little bit 00:11:35.618 --> 00:11:43.258 - higher level than what Colleen did, but maybe someone who could work under the attorney. Well, that's 00:11:43.258 --> 00:11:50.822 - what I'm suggesting. OK. So a chief administrator attorney delegates out roles of administration. We 00:11:50.822 --> 00:11:58.912 - need one person in the office, you know, the built-in person that's going to head the office, not competing 00:11:58.912 --> 00:12:05.278 - people. Yeah. OK. Isabel? You can stand if you want to. It's hard to toggle with the 00:12:05.634 --> 00:12:16.694 - So I understand the concern that Dave brought up about having two equal higher level employees. And 00:12:16.694 --> 00:12:27.864 - certainly that would be something we would have to overcome. But I think pointing to Dan Sherman and 00:12:27.864 --> 00:12:34.942 - then Stephen Lucas' tenures in the attorney administrator role, 00:12:35.394 --> 00:12:43.779 - I don't think either of them had a good life work balance. I think that they lived this job, and I don't 00:12:43.779 --> 00:12:52.164 - think that's healthy for anybody. I don't know how they did it, especially Steven, having a small child. 00:12:52.164 --> 00:13:00.070 - But I just don't think it's too much. It's too much for one person, is what I honestly think. Now, 00:13:00.070 --> 00:13:04.862 - if we had, well, I'm getting to that. So I had an informal, 00:13:05.250 --> 00:13:13.633 - this exchange with ESOC last week about possibly having one council member designated as the staff's 00:13:13.633 --> 00:13:22.098 - liaison who could meet maybe weekly with staff and have that person be paid. Because it is difficult, 00:13:22.098 --> 00:13:30.730 - especially if we say, okay, these are two equal bodies, they have equal positions and they have to work 00:13:30.730 --> 00:13:33.054 - together. But I don't know. 00:13:33.346 --> 00:13:39.507 - I mean, we could put one in charge of the other. I just, I don't know which it would be and it would 00:13:39.507 --> 00:13:45.302 - be kind of awkward. The administrator, in my view, it should be the administrator because part 00:13:45.302 --> 00:13:51.401 - of administrating is supervising people. But yeah, I mean, we can talk about how that might work or 00:13:51.401 --> 00:13:57.562 - not work. I mean, isn't the president the one who's delegated by the council to me with the... Yeah, 00:13:57.562 --> 00:14:02.686 - I have a thought on your question. So one way that you could, that we could do this 00:14:02.818 --> 00:14:11.398 - is that, and again, Clerk McDowell, I love your thoughts here. I'll make one general statement and then 00:14:11.398 --> 00:14:19.648 - this. We moved to a council administrator, you all asked that question at the last meeting in 1988, 00:14:19.648 --> 00:14:27.898 - right? Since then, there's also been some of the tasks that we're talking about are in code, things 00:14:27.898 --> 00:14:29.630 - that are things that 00:14:29.890 --> 00:14:36.517 - in many ways belong to the clerk's office. Is that a fair way of saying it? We have, in 40 years, taken 00:14:36.517 --> 00:14:42.952 - a lot of those things on as counsel, like packet preparation, like preparation of actual legislation 00:14:42.952 --> 00:14:49.324 - that's supposed to be prepared by the clerk's office. And then as a consequence, the clerk's office 00:14:49.324 --> 00:14:56.078 - has evolved to do other things, boards and commissions, and a lot of other things that weren't originally 00:14:56.078 --> 00:14:59.646 - conceived. So I think that we need to be aware of that. 00:14:59.842 --> 00:15:06.838 - I think that there's a way where you could do it, where you say, we hire an administrator who called 00:15:06.838 --> 00:15:14.250 - this person, you know, grand pooba of administration and clerk's office with like deputy clerk for council 00:15:14.250 --> 00:15:21.453 - affairs or something like that. And that that person within the job description, that that person takes 00:15:21.453 --> 00:15:26.302 - tasks from the council administrator. You could do that. Now there's- 00:15:26.402 --> 00:15:34.574 - We're creating new roles here. The title doesn't matter right now at the moment, but for the sake of 00:15:34.574 --> 00:15:42.827 - having a reference, call it Deputy Clerk for Counsel Affairs. Deputy Clerk for Counsel Affairs. Which 00:15:42.827 --> 00:15:51.161 - is what we've been calling our administrator. You could then say that that person can be tasked within 00:15:51.161 --> 00:15:54.398 - their job description that they receive 00:15:54.530 --> 00:16:01.387 - that they work with and receive instruction from council attorney and council legal, or whatever, the 00:16:01.387 --> 00:16:08.312 - council legal office, around legislative process, preparing of meetings, et cetera. So we could create 00:16:08.312 --> 00:16:15.035 - a structure like that that would exist within the clerk's office of that person that working around 00:16:15.035 --> 00:16:21.758 - the other people who support all of these processes. So who is the Grand Coupon? What's their name? 00:16:22.210 --> 00:16:28.257 - The grand poobah would be this person is definitely clerk for the council affairs. Deputy clerk. Yes. 00:16:28.257 --> 00:16:34.245 - So you have a deputy clerk for council affairs and then you have a, and then you have a chief chief. 00:16:34.245 --> 00:16:40.470 - Well, that sounds like we're replicating. Well, so the way that I think the perspective that the clerk's 00:16:40.470 --> 00:16:46.398 - office, what we see is there needs to be a project manager for council things. So the clerk doesn't 00:16:46.398 --> 00:16:48.414 - draft legislation. It's more, um, 00:16:49.154 --> 00:16:56.633 - It would be the gathering of the packet. Whoever would be in that hole will get the final version accessible, 00:16:56.633 --> 00:17:03.432 - gone through legal, gone through the appropriate department and whatnot, and then compiles that all 00:17:03.432 --> 00:17:10.231 - into one packet. It could be under the clerk or it could be under council. With summaries of what's 00:17:10.231 --> 00:17:17.642 - in each- That would be- That would come from our lawyer. I mean, that's legal work. Yes. Let's say planning, 00:17:17.642 --> 00:17:18.526 - for example. 00:17:19.106 --> 00:17:25.913 - Uh, Jackie or someone will create the staff memo and then if needed, there could be a council attorney 00:17:25.913 --> 00:17:32.852 - memo as well, or it could be combined. I've seen both, but really the, the thing that is the point there 00:17:32.852 --> 00:17:39.725 - started to jump in because I think this is critical to Dave's today's and I totally agree with you this 00:17:39.725 --> 00:17:46.466 - point, Dave. Um, and I think Isabelle and I are both saying the same thing. Part of the reason why we 00:17:46.466 --> 00:17:48.382 - haven't received things like 00:17:48.674 --> 00:17:55.393 - memos from our attorneys is because they're, again, this was particularly in this last iteration, but- 00:17:55.393 --> 00:18:02.177 - I think she was underwater. Yes, exactly. She couldn't do it. But the point is that what we really want 00:18:02.177 --> 00:18:08.700 - is them to spend all of their time doing legal stuff for us. And some of this falls under, broadly, 00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:13.918 - what I might still think is administration, but it's legal administration. It's 00:18:14.018 --> 00:18:21.220 - Get drafting and it's it's drafting memos. It's putting together opinions. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. 00:18:21.220 --> 00:18:28.563 - And still draft helping us draft legislation. That's what happened under Dan. And that's what delegated 00:18:28.563 --> 00:18:34.494 - to the people in the office. They hired to do that kind of administrative work. So, 00:18:34.754 --> 00:18:40.832 - But getting back to the deputy clerk for council affairs is the attorney I interrupted Sophia though. 00:18:40.832 --> 00:18:46.850 - So, sorry. Okay. So I do see the importance of having a difference between like an office manager or 00:18:46.850 --> 00:18:52.987 - a project manager or something. Someone who is getting all of the pieces together may not be a content 00:18:52.987 --> 00:18:59.422 - expert, but can get everything in a format. That is really what we need, especially given the accessibility 00:18:59.422 --> 00:19:01.150 - stuff that's going on. It's. 00:19:01.314 --> 00:19:08.694 - It's kind of intense right now. It'll be fine. I think it's a good opportunity. But the other part would 00:19:08.694 --> 00:19:16.425 - be exactly kind of what we were just saying is there needs to be a dedicated person whose only responsibility 00:19:16.425 --> 00:19:23.664 - is the legal components. Does this go against home rule or is it legal within the state of Indiana and 00:19:23.664 --> 00:19:30.974 - so forth, those sorts of things. But I don't think personally, I think that council meets its own legal 00:19:31.170 --> 00:19:38.945 - Representation I don't think it should be. That it should be one that it should council should have 00:19:38.945 --> 00:19:46.875 - their own representation not not not within. The project manager part is where I see it fail time and 00:19:46.875 --> 00:19:53.950 - time again, because I worked with Dan and I did work with Stephen and I saw the amount of. 00:19:54.338 --> 00:20:00.851 - I mean, we're talking 60 plus hours on a good week. And I agree with what Councilmember Piedmont-Smith 00:20:00.851 --> 00:20:06.986 - said about the work-life balance. And I think it's not an incentive to stay. And they can offer, 00:20:06.986 --> 00:20:13.878 - you know, $250,000. It's still probably would not be an incentive to stay. It's just, it's not demoralizing, 00:20:13.878 --> 00:20:18.558 - that's the word. You go and get this law and get your PDFs that are like, 00:20:19.618 --> 00:20:25.134 - Overly complex. So who heads the office here? That's what I'm getting at. And who's he? Is the Deputy 00:20:25.134 --> 00:20:30.651 - Clerk for Council Affairs, is that the attorney? No, that person is our administrator. The reason I'm 00:20:30.651 --> 00:20:36.167 - calling them a clerk is just because I think that we cannot hire an administrator alone, so we'd have 00:20:36.167 --> 00:20:41.792 - to put them somewhere. Well, getting back to what Sidney said, Deputy Clerk for Council Affairs doesn't 00:20:41.792 --> 00:20:47.200 - sound like a very prestigious position. Administrator sounds like a prestigious position. You know, 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:48.606 - Council Projects Manager? 00:20:48.706 --> 00:20:54.358 - in the clerk's office. Yeah, whatever we call it is project manager. Yeah, and we can think about name. 00:20:54.358 --> 00:20:59.901 - I agree that I think that's the next step. But conceptually, the idea here is that is that, you know, 00:20:59.901 --> 00:21:05.335 - and I think that this is the middle ground between what what Sir Isabel and I had said at first and 00:21:05.335 --> 00:21:11.041 - what you're concerned, which is if we have someone who's embedded in the clerk's office, because they're 00:21:11.041 --> 00:21:14.302 - already doing some of the administration so that it makes a 00:21:14.498 --> 00:21:19.882 - whole thing around administration rather than, you know, it's like, just a simple example. We were scheduling 00:21:19.882 --> 00:21:24.924 - a special session for tomorrow. And so I'm like, okay, well, Lisa's not here. Who do I talk to? I went 00:21:24.924 --> 00:21:29.966 - and talked to Clark McDowell and she was like, well, that's actually a council thing that they do that 00:21:29.966 --> 00:21:34.860 - meeting. So then I went back to them and then they were like, oh yeah, let's do it. And then Sophia 00:21:34.860 --> 00:21:39.902 - was like, actually, I can do it if you guys want me to, but this is a thing that council usually does. 00:21:40.418 --> 00:21:48.568 - That makes no sense, right? So you incorporate all of that, and then our lawyers get to do law stuff. 00:21:48.568 --> 00:21:56.718 - So who's the top person? Our counsel attorney. Our counsel attorney is the chief person who basically 00:21:56.718 --> 00:22:04.708 - delegates, and then you've got people who are doing under this person who are doing administrative. 00:22:04.708 --> 00:22:09.662 - So then you have one, in my mind, you have one administrator, 00:22:09.762 --> 00:22:16.700 - And you have one and you have one deputy attorney. Okay. So that is that is that time? I think the question 00:22:16.700 --> 00:22:23.188 - is the first question that needs to be answered is if council can hire non evil. Cannot we have that 00:22:23.188 --> 00:22:29.613 - that has been answered. I think clear. I agree, but I think there might be some concern about that. 00:22:29.613 --> 00:22:34.238 - So what you're saying is in order to have someone who can focus on the. 00:22:34.466 --> 00:22:40.922 - doing of the stuff and not the expertise of the stuff, like running Zoom, let's say, combining the packets, 00:22:40.922 --> 00:22:46.960 - that person would need to be housed somewhere, and it doesn't make sense to house that person in the 00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:52.998 - administration, or, and it's not legal in council, therefore, the default could be the parks office. 00:22:52.998 --> 00:22:59.096 - And that person would still report to Perkfolden, but would also have the council's interest in mind. 00:22:59.096 --> 00:23:03.998 - I think those are the details that this committee and the council will bring out. 00:23:04.130 --> 00:23:10.269 - and just everyone in work's office, would the capacity be there to add an extra staff member? I think 00:23:10.269 --> 00:23:16.649 - it would almost need to be, especially if this person is gonna be evenings and Wednesdays and Wednesdays. 00:23:16.649 --> 00:23:22.909 - Absolutely, right. Because the public comment, the presentations, the way council, we talked about this 00:23:22.909 --> 00:23:28.988 - a minute ago, there's four computers that are run, and I find that, I don't know, I have not run it, 00:23:28.988 --> 00:23:30.974 - I don't think that that's ideal. 00:23:31.618 --> 00:23:38.841 - but I think in terms of capacity, it would behoove the council to have their own person in the first 00:23:38.841 --> 00:23:46.206 - office or wherever this person can be housed. I would agree, thank you. So it looks like this, council 00:23:46.206 --> 00:23:53.715 - turning, and then deputy clerk for council affairs, who's doing administrative stuff, who then delegates 00:23:53.715 --> 00:24:01.438 - out to potentially other people, right? And then- I don't think there ends up being any, I mean, I suppose- 00:24:01.570 --> 00:24:07.766 - Okay, so I suppose that the people like our cox fellows and stuff like that could work with this person, 00:24:07.766 --> 00:24:13.667 - right? Yeah. And the attorney. Yeah, and the attorney. I mean, you know, the idea like dotted lines 00:24:13.667 --> 00:24:19.745 - and direct lines, I think is something we need to incorporate here, right? And this person coordinates 00:24:19.745 --> 00:24:25.941 - with the clerk. Correct. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. But would work under the clerk. Just be housed under 00:24:25.941 --> 00:24:26.590 - the clerk. 00:24:26.690 --> 00:24:33.130 - Wait a minute, the deputy clerk for council affairs of the house under the clerk? This council cannot 00:24:33.130 --> 00:24:39.443 - legally by state code hire anything other than a legal position? No, but the council attorney hires 00:24:39.443 --> 00:24:45.820 - that position. See, that's where I think the gray area is. That's the question that might need to be 00:24:45.820 --> 00:24:52.638 - answered by. I mean, with all due respect, I really like the council to have autonomy apart from the clerk. 00:24:52.994 --> 00:24:59.566 - administration, but I think we would have that. I think we would have that with as well as your answer. 00:24:59.566 --> 00:25:05.886 - We'll go to you next. I think we would have that with our with two lawyers that are our lawyers and 00:25:06.018 --> 00:25:12.946 - And we can put some element of administration in their jobs, right? But it's just the heavy burden of 00:25:12.946 --> 00:25:19.874 - administration, the things like we're, I mean, it's listed out in these job descriptions, PDF making, 00:25:19.874 --> 00:25:26.735 - room booking, staffing, Zoom meetings, you know, like- But this person's serving under the clerk, so 00:25:26.735 --> 00:25:30.878 - it's in your budget and they work for the clerk, not for us. 00:25:31.074 --> 00:25:37.752 - I mean, but we can change what the clerk does by changing code. So it's not like the clerk doesn't get 00:25:37.752 --> 00:25:44.300 - to just do whatever they want. I guess what I'm saying is, but this person is working for the clerk. 00:25:44.300 --> 00:25:50.912 - It's not for us. And we were saying a minute ago that- But the clerk by code has a lot of things that 00:25:50.912 --> 00:25:57.590 - they are supposed to do for us. Yeah. And that administrative stuff would fall under that. And I think 00:25:57.590 --> 00:26:00.702 - the job descriptions would have to be massively 00:26:01.250 --> 00:26:07.221 - you know, very detailed. Exactly. Not in code, not codified. Yes, but very clear that- This person is 00:26:07.221 --> 00:26:13.076 - responsible for the packet, the meetings, that sort of thing, like really hammer that out. And this 00:26:13.076 --> 00:26:18.989 - isn't like a position that would be making a lot of decisions. It's just- No. I mean, for a project, 00:26:18.989 --> 00:26:25.136 - it's like front work. Project management. Yes. Project management. No, because summaries can be, I mean, 00:26:25.136 --> 00:26:31.166 - the question- The summaries are made by our lawyer. Yes, I know, but I guess, all right. So it's just, 00:26:32.418 --> 00:26:39.771 - Compilation, I mean, all right, so. So what does this person do with the question? Yeah, so we're giving 00:26:39.771 --> 00:26:47.053 - out, we're just gonna have one attorney instead of two. No, I think we should have two attorneys. Okay, 00:26:47.053 --> 00:26:54.265 - where is that in that scheme? So I said, let's let Isabel talk and then I'll answer that question. And 00:26:54.265 --> 00:27:01.758 - did they work for the clerk then? No. Okay. Go ahead, Isabel. Okay, so I've also made a little chart here. 00:27:02.178 --> 00:27:10.859 - So yeah, I feel like we have counsel attorney and that's the major, like, I don't know, the one at the 00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:19.372 - top of the chart. And then we have the deputy clerk for council affairs or whatever you want to call 00:27:19.372 --> 00:27:28.137 - it, the clerk's office, kind of works directed by the attorney, but also, you know, does administrative 00:27:28.137 --> 00:27:30.750 - work, so works with the clerk. 00:27:31.522 --> 00:27:38.201 - And then on the other side, also reporting to the council attorney is the deputy attorney. And then 00:27:38.201 --> 00:27:44.879 - our interns work for- You could have garbled up, I didn't hear that last bit. Oh, so then we have a 00:27:44.879 --> 00:27:51.558 - deputy attorney for the council that works for our council attorney. And then the interns can be on 00:27:51.558 --> 00:27:59.038 - projects reporting to the deputy attorney, the full attorney, or the administrator, which administration equals 00:27:59.202 --> 00:28:06.272 - administrator in my book equals this deputy clerk position that's equal to the administrator. So where 00:28:06.272 --> 00:28:13.410 - the interns are most needed, they will go and work with that person. So I think this is something, like 00:28:13.410 --> 00:28:20.273 - Isak said, that we could work out with the clerk's office and put in code that there would still be 00:28:20.273 --> 00:28:27.205 - reporting to the council for that administrator position. And to add on that, I think that that role 00:28:27.205 --> 00:28:28.990 - would not do current work 00:28:29.602 --> 00:28:36.142 - responsibilities. That's right. They would not be, they, I mean, by nature of being in the office, they 00:28:36.142 --> 00:28:42.430 - may need to answer the phone sometime, but they would, we triage all the time. So that person would 00:28:42.430 --> 00:28:49.221 - not do like legislation processing post meeting legislation processing. It would be to support the council. 00:28:49.221 --> 00:28:55.949 - Yes. Well, that raises the issue of the location of that person too. We're not in the same office anymore, 00:28:55.949 --> 00:28:58.590 - but that could, that could be negotiated. 00:28:59.202 --> 00:29:05.725 - I think that's a good question to answer is whether, because your point was counsel can hire the attorney, 00:29:05.725 --> 00:29:12.126 - so therefore could the attorney hire that administrative? I don't know the answer. I think it's, I think 00:29:12.126 --> 00:29:18.223 - it still remains the council office who hires, it's not the administrator who's hiring that person, 00:29:18.223 --> 00:29:24.990 - it's the council office. I agree, but I just don't, I don't, sometimes it can be so legally that I don't know. 00:29:25.634 --> 00:29:33.048 - like the council attorney to have autonomy and hire their own staff. Yes, and so they would get a deputy. 00:29:33.048 --> 00:29:40.251 - Yeah, so I'm looking at a chart like that. Council attorney has, and then the deputy clerk for council 00:29:40.251 --> 00:29:47.595 - fairs is doing administrative stuff, working under the clerk? I mean, they're housed somewhere. We don't 00:29:47.595 --> 00:29:54.589 - know if they're in the clerk's office or council. Let's answer that question. Where else could they 00:29:54.589 --> 00:29:55.358 - be housed? 00:29:55.714 --> 00:30:02.217 - We cannot, if we hire them, they have to be a lawyer. So. Well, no, I mean, we've got a separate attorney 00:30:02.217 --> 00:30:08.353 - over here. No, that's what I'm saying. So our administrator, there's no other place to put them but 00:30:08.353 --> 00:30:14.918 - the clerk's office is my contention. Okay, so they're working for the clerk and they report to the counsel 00:30:14.918 --> 00:30:21.053 - attorney. So it's another, it's an expansion of your office because we're going to hire somebody in 00:30:21.053 --> 00:30:24.734 - the clerk's office. Correct. But then are we down to three? 00:30:24.898 --> 00:30:32.540 - People in the... I think at the moment we have three lines. I think what we're doing is turning the 00:30:32.540 --> 00:30:40.258 - legal research line into an administrative line and keeping attorney and deputy attorney as counsel. 00:30:40.258 --> 00:30:48.512 - So you keep three lines. In the future, we might want to add another line. That's something we can discuss. 00:30:48.512 --> 00:30:54.014 - But I think that what I would propose to this committee is that we take 00:30:54.146 --> 00:31:01.650 - which is different than what Isabel proposed, is that the job that we post immediately, once we can 00:31:01.650 --> 00:31:09.304 - get that already, is our, and again, names, we can talk about names in a second, but council attorney 00:31:09.304 --> 00:31:16.883 - job. We should also post, I think fairly soon, a council project manager, administrator, whatever we 00:31:16.883 --> 00:31:23.486 - want to call that, director of operations, I don't know, we can think of a name, right? 00:31:24.706 --> 00:31:31.564 - That one we would have to create the position first. Correct. That was correct. Under the clerk. Yeah. 00:31:31.564 --> 00:31:38.422 - So that would take longer. Exactly. So I think you do those and then you let the council attorney hire 00:31:38.422 --> 00:31:45.213 - a deputy attorney. If this administrator could not be in the clerk's office, that would be great. But 00:31:45.213 --> 00:31:51.006 - I don't think that counts. I don't think there's any other place. That's the downfall. 00:31:51.106 --> 00:31:56.154 - But I think there's a lot of benefits than being in the clerk's office because we said there's a little 00:31:56.154 --> 00:32:01.057 - bit of a devolution of things that the clerk's office should do. It creates more synergy amongst. So 00:32:01.057 --> 00:32:05.960 - it's not this question of are you going to do this? Am I going to do this? Who's going to? It's just 00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:10.911 - a clarity of all of those tasks live in that office, right? And there's a point person that we liaise 00:32:10.911 --> 00:32:15.134 - with as counsel. So for example, this person would not be able to affect the schedule. 00:32:15.394 --> 00:32:22.790 - of legislation, they would not be able to do any sort of, it's really compiling and making things proper 00:32:22.790 --> 00:32:29.905 - and a, in compliance usable. Well, the lawyers would be more at that level. This person is gathering 00:32:29.905 --> 00:32:37.372 - the documents and doing all the administrative work that has been pretty clear for me for four attorneys, 00:32:37.372 --> 00:32:40.894 - council administrator attorneys is like the, the, 00:32:42.306 --> 00:32:47.929 - not difficult part, but the more cumbersome part. And it really takes away from their legal research 00:32:47.929 --> 00:32:53.552 - abilities. So the difficulty I still have is that this, I don't know who this person reports to, the 00:32:53.552 --> 00:32:59.120 - clerk or the council attorney. And if they're displeased, if this person doesn't measure up, as far 00:32:59.120 --> 00:33:04.687 - as clerks are concerned, but the council attorney loves this person and it works out great. But the 00:33:04.687 --> 00:33:10.366 - clerk doesn't like them. What happens? Well, and that's a huge part too, because it's an appointment. 00:33:10.530 --> 00:33:17.458 - and they serve at the clerk's pleasure. So. Isabel, what do you think? That's the, that's the thing 00:33:17.458 --> 00:33:24.386 - I'm most concerned about. Who ultimately has control over the. Well, I think, I think that the, the 00:33:24.386 --> 00:33:31.522 - clerk and the council attorney would both have to be involved in hiring this person. And I don't know, 00:33:31.522 --> 00:33:36.926 - we'd have to write into code somehow. So the reporting line is. I don't know. 00:33:37.026 --> 00:33:44.010 - I see it as a potential conflict. Are there any other examples in the city where you've got two different 00:33:44.010 --> 00:33:50.664 - departments who have a co-hire? Oh, I'd have to think about that for a moment. You'd like to know if 00:33:50.664 --> 00:33:57.583 - HR has dealt with this kind of thing. I don't know. I think it's difficult because it's local government 00:33:57.583 --> 00:34:04.830 - and municipalities have such great rules about things. If there's a way to see if that administrator could be 00:34:05.666 --> 00:34:12.604 - Under the council and training that would be great. We have corn issues. We just have to have 50% of 00:34:12.604 --> 00:34:19.818 - the one. We've run into this before I know we're all good. Okay, so well, here's, here's, here's, here's 00:34:19.818 --> 00:34:26.825 - where they get paid from to have from the council's office and you have to look around. I don't know, 00:34:26.825 --> 00:34:30.878 - because ultimately their higher fire is going to be based. 00:34:31.106 --> 00:34:40.122 - I think that this is like a really good opportunity to determine what the best case scenario could be. 00:34:40.122 --> 00:34:49.313 - So whatever, like what's the gold standard, although I don't like gold, let's say silver, you can design 00:34:49.313 --> 00:34:57.278 - it and put it wherever it works best to where council doesn't. So HR would be good to tap. 00:34:57.506 --> 00:35:04.246 - Okay, so here's an alternative structure. Yeah. Well, okay. Here's an alternative structure. You're 00:35:04.246 --> 00:35:11.054 - gonna be sold on this one up. Yeah, so see, I agree with you. I think that that is a pain point, and 00:35:11.054 --> 00:35:17.794 - I'll tell you my counter to this in a second, but here's another thing to consider, which builds on 00:35:17.794 --> 00:35:24.737 - what Isabel suggested. You could say that our chief, the leader of the council office and staff is the 00:35:24.737 --> 00:35:25.950 - council attorney. 00:35:26.114 --> 00:35:33.804 - and we remove all of the main burden of administration from that job, and that it's actually the deputy 00:35:33.804 --> 00:35:41.345 - who is deputy attorney stroke administrator. So, I mean, that's a possibility. Now, I'll tell you why 00:35:41.345 --> 00:35:49.035 - I think that's a challenge, is that again, we run into an issue of, so now you have a person, you know, 00:35:49.035 --> 00:35:52.510 - a person who's, so like at the end of the day, 00:35:52.770 --> 00:35:58.190 - when that administrator is incapacitated, sick, not there, that means that all of the administration 00:35:58.190 --> 00:36:03.717 - falls back to our counsel attorney, and then we cycle back in this issue. That person's not there, how 00:36:03.717 --> 00:36:09.352 - do we hire? That means that we have to hire the chief attorney and then wait for them to hire, you know, 00:36:09.352 --> 00:36:14.718 - whereas, so I think that that's a little bit of a pain one, but a possibility. I think that that is 00:36:14.718 --> 00:36:20.352 - one possibility we should present to our colleagues. I'll tell you why I think what, as though I totally 00:36:20.352 --> 00:36:21.694 - share your concern that, 00:36:22.050 --> 00:36:28.513 - And I think that we've seen, okay, I think that there could be, you could imagine a time where the clerk, 00:36:28.513 --> 00:36:34.915 - the politically appointed clerk, right, the politically elected clerk decides that, you know what, like, 00:36:34.915 --> 00:36:41.011 - I don't like, let's say I don't like Esau, council president, I don't like Esau, and we're going to 00:36:41.011 --> 00:36:45.950 - thwart what Esau does. Now, in some hypothetical universe, it's possible, right? 00:36:46.050 --> 00:36:52.897 - You know, I think we'd have to think very clearly about, like, what are the mechanisms by which this 00:36:52.897 --> 00:36:59.812 - person, you know, actually gets leadership guidance, et cetera. But, you know, it's not, the clerk is 00:36:59.812 --> 00:37:04.286 - not able to ruin, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's all right. 00:37:04.994 --> 00:37:12.954 - There are many, many ways to do just that. Exactly. I'm so sorry. Is there any way you could just pause 00:37:12.954 --> 00:37:20.301 - for just a teensy bit? It's a bit distracting. Oh, sorry. Is that okay? Just like a little bit. 00:37:20.301 --> 00:37:28.184 - Thank you. Go ahead, Isabelle. Well, I think another option we might consider is just turning over all 00:37:28.184 --> 00:37:31.934 - the administrative duties to the clerk's office. 00:37:32.770 --> 00:37:38.655 - Yes. I mean, this is what was envisioned by Indiana code. And this is probably why we're not allowed 00:37:38.655 --> 00:37:44.773 - to hire other than attorneys is because it was envisioned that the clerk would do all the administrative 00:37:44.773 --> 00:37:51.008 - stuff anyway. I just consider that option as well. I disagree. I just think I mean, especially considering 00:37:51.008 --> 00:37:56.835 - with our budget, are we going to turn that over to the clerk's office as well? But what part of the 00:37:56.835 --> 00:38:01.438 - budget are you are you thinking of? Well, it's entirety of the council office. 00:38:01.602 --> 00:38:09.815 - I mean, but you mean you mean the deciding what's in the budget or the or the preparation of the document, 00:38:09.815 --> 00:38:17.874 - all the budget? Well, OK, what's in the budget primarily, but that includes, you know, resources, hires, 00:38:17.874 --> 00:38:25.933 - you know, staffing. Yeah, you know, whatever the council, we had various. It's not a complicated budget, 00:38:25.933 --> 00:38:30.462 - but it's a budget that and it's minor compared to a lot of 00:38:31.298 --> 00:38:38.146 - But the point was that we had autonomy over our budget and I don't want to turn that over to anybody 00:38:38.146 --> 00:38:45.400 - else. But I wouldn't turn it over to the mayor either. But we're the fiduciary. We hold the purse strings. 00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:48.926 - We always get to decide every budget. No, we don't. 00:38:49.026 --> 00:39:04.623 - But no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 00:39:04.623 --> 00:39:08.990 - no, no, no, no, no, no, no. 00:39:10.722 --> 00:39:16.942 - The same way, I mean, you know, if we for some random reason, and this is just an example, but if we 00:39:16.942 --> 00:39:23.470 - for some random reason said, you know what, we think that the clerk has way too many people on the staff, 00:39:23.470 --> 00:39:29.814 - we could reduce their budget. That's within our power to do it. So I'm just saying we don't. You know, 00:39:29.814 --> 00:39:36.157 - to me, I think that better option is in terms of packet preparation, there's a lot of stuff that could 00:39:36.157 --> 00:39:36.958 - be the clerk 00:39:37.282 --> 00:39:42.728 - obviously is equipped to do that, does it in other communities and stuff like that, in coordination 00:39:42.728 --> 00:39:48.664 - with the council attorney, because the council attorney will be writing summaries of what it is, researching 00:39:48.664 --> 00:39:54.110 - legislation, anticipating questions from the council, handling potential amendments and things like 00:39:54.110 --> 00:39:59.773 - that, kind of vetting those, understanding sort of state statutes so that they're prepared so that when 00:39:59.773 --> 00:40:05.382 - we go into a meeting, like we did with the discussion on first readings, you know? I want somebody who 00:40:05.382 --> 00:40:06.526 - could game that out. 00:40:06.690 --> 00:40:14.409 - I want somebody who anticipates where that could go so that when Hopi turns and says, gosh, I'm confused 00:40:14.409 --> 00:40:22.349 - here exactly what could happen, we have somebody who's prepared to do that. Now that's the council attorney 00:40:22.349 --> 00:40:29.848 - role, but I'm afraid that there's going to be some tension there if we don't have control as we have, 00:40:29.848 --> 00:40:35.582 - except for the delegation of very basic things. I'm sorry, Sydney. I'm sorry. 00:40:36.002 --> 00:40:42.157 - Part-time person in the clerk's office and a part-time legal researcher in council's office so that 00:40:42.157 --> 00:40:48.435 - we could have But still, um Yeah, you know delegate some of that work would that work for the clerk's 00:40:48.435 --> 00:40:54.590 - office? I think so. I mean, of course we'll have to defer to clerk bouldin, but I just I do want to 00:40:54.590 --> 00:41:00.746 - provide a little bit of context because when I Was first hired what I saw was Legislation and other 00:41:00.746 --> 00:41:04.254 - pieces of documentation whatever it may be would come to 00:41:05.282 --> 00:41:12.289 - council incomplete, insufficient, wrong. I've seen schematics be wrong for allegations, things like 00:41:12.289 --> 00:41:19.436 - that. I think that that's why 40 years ago it switched into being more of the council attorney's role 00:41:19.436 --> 00:41:26.514 - to do some of that administrative stuff. I also understand from having read some of the documents in 00:41:26.514 --> 00:41:33.521 - the past that at the time that council attorney agreed with that idea as did the clerk at the time. 00:41:33.521 --> 00:41:34.782 - So it wasn't that 00:41:34.978 --> 00:41:43.468 - the clerk at the time did not want to compile the packet. It was about things not being properly done. 00:41:43.468 --> 00:41:51.793 - And so ideally you would get legislation and it's been fully vetted and fully ready to just be read, 00:41:51.793 --> 00:42:00.613 - but that's not the case. So I think that's why those administrative pieces got shifted over to the council 00:42:00.613 --> 00:42:04.734 - attorney. I think rightly so. I mean, I hate the, 00:42:04.898 --> 00:42:13.058 - Surrender that because otherwise we're because the clerk's job is just simply potentially compiling 00:42:13.058 --> 00:42:21.382 - stuff right giving it to us and Not vetting it which is you know, Bloomington code does say that they 00:42:21.382 --> 00:42:29.950 - help with preparation of of legislation And send title to well I You know, I just fiercely guarded about 00:42:30.370 --> 00:42:39.995 - losing autonomy to the office. That's my point. Do I hear correct? We have three choices on the table 00:42:39.995 --> 00:42:49.714 - here that we'll present tomorrow to our colleagues. Choice, and this is not in any preferential order, 00:42:49.714 --> 00:42:58.206 - just in the order we've discussed them. Choice one is that we have two council attorneys, 00:42:58.306 --> 00:43:07.282 - and then a additional position of the clerk's office named to be determined. Choice one. Choice two 00:43:07.282 --> 00:43:16.617 - is that we have a attorney, a deputy attorney stroke administrator. Tell me if I'm misrepresenting this 00:43:16.617 --> 00:43:26.132 - idea, Isabel. And then a legal researcher. So switching the administration job rep from the lead attorney 00:43:26.132 --> 00:43:28.286 - to the deputy attorney. 00:43:29.090 --> 00:43:36.297 - Choice number three, choice number three is that we have a part-time person who that third role is a 00:43:36.297 --> 00:43:43.433 - legal researcher. We have a part-time legal researcher and a part-time counsel liaison or something 00:43:43.433 --> 00:43:50.641 - like that in the clerk's office. And then we retain two attorneys. And then I suppose option four is 00:43:50.641 --> 00:43:55.422 - the keep things as they are option. Isabel, did that interest you? 00:43:55.906 --> 00:44:05.696 - Could you run through that again? So the first one I understand, two attorneys and one buddy and one 00:44:05.696 --> 00:44:16.358 - person in the clerk's office. Option two was basically keep things as they are, but change the administration 00:44:16.358 --> 00:44:25.566 - functions from the lead attorney to the deputy attorney. Okay. And then number three was what? 00:44:26.306 --> 00:44:36.070 - Number three was two part-time people. So a part-time council liaison and something administrator in 00:44:36.070 --> 00:44:45.931 - the clerk's office and a part-time legal researcher in council's office. And the fourth one is status 00:44:45.931 --> 00:44:53.182 - quo. Status quo, yeah. Wait a minute. So option three only has two people? 00:44:53.314 --> 00:45:02.264 - Four. Oh, four people. So I have two attorneys. But you split the full-time research role. OK. Yeah. 00:45:02.264 --> 00:45:11.656 - Got it. OK. OK. Dave, do you think we could preserve some autonomy that way? I think that that's a better 00:45:11.656 --> 00:45:19.454 - idea because that gives us, it's a lower level. And I'm just afraid of higher levels of 00:45:20.258 --> 00:45:26.864 - people butting heads. And I think that's maybe where we're where we all are saying the same thing, but 00:45:26.864 --> 00:45:33.727 - that's somewhat speaking past each other is the fact that to me, like when I write down the administrative 00:45:33.727 --> 00:45:40.782 - responsibilities for the load of administrative possible that we're talking, we're talking about coordinating 00:45:40.782 --> 00:45:47.323 - meeting logistics, coordinating and preparation of council agendas, managing legislation, legislative 00:45:47.323 --> 00:45:48.542 - document workflow, 00:45:48.674 --> 00:45:54.935 - maintaining records of some sort, because there's some of that that overlaps with the clerk anyways, 00:45:54.935 --> 00:46:01.259 - improve council workflows, develop administrative systems, implement technology improvements, support 00:46:01.259 --> 00:46:07.458 - council members with scheduling and coordination, manage communications and documentation, and some 00:46:07.458 --> 00:46:09.566 - elements of constituent services. 00:46:12.322 --> 00:46:21.931 - the things like managing the council office, overseeing council staff, still is on the side of the legal 00:46:21.931 --> 00:46:31.266 - person. So, okay, so the first, the last one is keeping the code as it is, essentially, more or less, 00:46:31.266 --> 00:46:40.692 - right? And the other three basically mean changes, right, in terms of that we need to pass legislation 00:46:40.692 --> 00:46:41.790 - for or not? 00:46:42.178 --> 00:46:48.122 - I don't think choice number two would require that type of change. Um, but it might, uh, I think that 00:46:48.122 --> 00:46:54.009 - would just be changing the job descriptions for attorney versus deputy attorney. I do think anything 00:46:54.009 --> 00:46:59.895 - that we would put, if we're putting anything in the clerk's office, that is going to be legislation. 00:46:59.895 --> 00:47:05.839 - Is that correct? I would think so, but. Appropriation is what it would take. Yeah. And I think, well, 00:47:05.839 --> 00:47:07.646 - just one quick thing. I think. 00:47:07.938 --> 00:47:16.580 - the job descriptions are gonna be the key point because all of the duties are going to blend, no matter 00:47:16.580 --> 00:47:25.055 - what, no matter how you try to set that up. Isabel? To me, option number two is basically the same as 00:47:25.055 --> 00:47:33.531 - status quo. I mean, just calling, putting all the administration on the deputy attorney, you have the 00:47:33.531 --> 00:47:36.190 - same problem of burnout and of, 00:47:37.154 --> 00:47:44.617 - not getting an actually highly qualified attorney because there's the administrative part of it not 00:47:44.617 --> 00:47:52.229 - having a salary, et cetera. I'd be willing to go with number three. So I don't know if we really want 00:47:52.229 --> 00:48:00.289 - to separate that out or not, but I guess, I mean, on paper it would look different, but I think in practice 00:48:00.289 --> 00:48:06.558 - it would really do. So didn't we have room for people in the current council office 00:48:07.010 --> 00:48:14.227 - I mean, in terms of what's actually allocated, we have three lines. We have only three lines in it. 00:48:14.227 --> 00:48:21.661 - Yeah, three full-time lines. So, I mean, one alternative is that the deputy attorney administrator has 00:48:21.661 --> 00:48:28.879 - two people under them to delegate out various administrative duties. Yeah, so there's the option of 00:48:28.879 --> 00:48:35.230 - adding more positions to counsel. But our right hand, like SGA used to be on hand, too. 00:48:36.258 --> 00:48:43.273 - you know, if Dan couldn't make the meetings or whatever, SJ would fill in just like Brooks would and 00:48:43.273 --> 00:48:50.219 - we'd have an attorney there regardless. So, okay, just trying to write my head around this, sort of 00:48:50.219 --> 00:48:57.304 - those four options. So I'm thinking that, you know, despite our ambitions that we should get, because 00:48:57.304 --> 00:49:03.902 - our charge explicitly says that we'll take the options to counsel. And, you know, I think that 00:49:04.034 --> 00:49:11.720 - what option we land on is going to determine what the job descriptions look like, right? So, would you 00:49:11.720 --> 00:49:19.481 - all agree it's not worth us? I mean, we've started to redline job descriptions, but we'll need a little 00:49:19.481 --> 00:49:27.093 - bit of guidance from the full body before we can fully commit to that. Do we agree? I agree. Okay. In 00:49:27.093 --> 00:49:29.182 - terms though, just so that, 00:49:30.146 --> 00:49:36.086 - Because we have a few more minutes here. It'd be nice to also give cats a little bit. Yeah, we'll give 00:49:36.086 --> 00:49:41.853 - it some time. So we'll, we'll get out of here. I think they're next week. That's six thirty, right? 00:49:41.853 --> 00:49:47.677 - No, six. Okay. Well, we can was booked until six. Okay. Um, one thing that we all can think a little 00:49:47.677 --> 00:49:53.502 - bit about, um, um, sort of ahead of tomorrow, um, just in case there are questions, I'll be thinking 00:49:53.502 --> 00:49:58.750 - about this as well. Um, but outside of the list that, that I listed of like, what are the, 00:49:58.850 --> 00:50:04.450 - What are the responsibilities like the administrative responsibilities? Because I think I think you've 00:50:04.450 --> 00:50:07.006 - illustrated an important point that, you know. 00:50:07.554 --> 00:50:14.280 - In council parlance, administrator means director. It means the person who leads the thing, rather than 00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:20.813 - the way that maybe a lot of people think about it as administrators, the person who does a thing, or 00:50:20.813 --> 00:50:27.539 - something like that. I don't know. There's lots of problems with those type of definitions, but I think 00:50:27.539 --> 00:50:31.614 - we do need to be thinking about what are all the things. Okay. 00:50:31.714 --> 00:50:41.378 - Um, so we'll propose this to council tomorrow and have a, have a vote and then we can, we can meet again. 00:50:41.378 --> 00:50:50.494 - Um, yes. When, when, when would a good time to meet again? Everyone would need to be after council. 00:50:50.494 --> 00:51:00.158 - One suggestion to you is you could send them a poll. Maybe you should see more to have a little bit back. 00:51:00.546 --> 00:51:07.497 - Since it again, I'm sorry, just a scheduling for like a went to meet or something like that. Yeah, you're 00:51:07.497 --> 00:51:14.252 - fine. You know, if you, if you want to pencil something right now, I'm willing to, but you're gone all 00:51:14.252 --> 00:51:21.073 - of next week. Right. Right. Are you both done next week? No, are you here next week? Yeah. Talks about, 00:51:21.073 --> 00:51:28.024 - I will be here next week. Oh, you'll be here next week about meeting meeting sometime next week, a little 00:51:28.024 --> 00:51:29.598 - bit longer. Sure. Sure. 00:51:29.730 --> 00:51:37.972 - I'm like, wide open so I can meet any time I'm traveling, I think on Thursday, just for a quick recruitment 00:51:37.972 --> 00:51:45.755 - thing, but I could do it like any time on Friday, I could do any time on Wednesday, Tuesday. I can do 00:51:45.755 --> 00:51:54.302 - a Friday or Tuesday. Tuesday is totally open in my book. St. Patrick's Day. Are you close to St. Patrick's Day? 00:51:56.130 --> 00:52:02.477 - So should we do a, we have an economic development meeting at four, so I could do five or I could do 00:52:02.477 --> 00:52:08.761 - any type of four, four. On Wednesday? On Tuesday. Next Tuesday is that? Are we closed today? Do you 00:52:08.761 --> 00:52:15.046 - guys want to do five again, or Claire McDowell, does that work? That should work. Do you want to do 00:52:15.046 --> 00:52:21.330 - two hours, hour and a half? Would that be okay with everyone? I have to be somewhere, like probably 00:52:21.330 --> 00:52:24.158 - right after 6.30. So we do five to 6.30, or? 00:52:25.218 --> 00:52:31.751 - Yeah, 90 minutes is good. Yeah, to 630. Okay. Five to 630 Tuesday, March 17th. And we'll all come with 00:52:31.751 --> 00:52:38.285 - our list of responsibilities that we think for each. Yeah, based on what's loaded on here, because the 00:52:38.285 --> 00:52:44.945 - council may vote to lead things as it's, I mean, and then, you know, and then, and then our conversation 00:52:44.945 --> 00:52:51.415 - will more be, I'm also going to ask for a slight, slight amendment of the charge then once we discuss 00:52:51.415 --> 00:52:54.142 - it so that we can, we can be empowered to, 00:52:55.234 --> 00:53:02.291 - Actually go and make the job and send it out. Like, right? Like, I think we've sent it to everybody. 00:53:02.291 --> 00:53:08.858 - We'll get their comments, but I don't think we need to then go back to counsel to approve the 00:53:08.858 --> 00:53:14.238 - job descriptions. After. Yeah. Did hope you mentioned something to me about. 00:53:14.402 --> 00:53:20.954 - Maybe you didn't have the most up-to-date job description. The one that I shared was not the one that 00:53:20.954 --> 00:53:27.442 - you all updated last time, apparently. But then she said she sent it to me. I didn't see it. I don't 00:53:27.442 --> 00:53:34.186 - know if maybe she just put it in her folder. So I'll find that and circulate that around to you as well. 00:53:34.186 --> 00:53:39.646 - OK, thank you. You all might consider also a discussion on something in the interim. 00:53:39.906 --> 00:53:52.002 - or like, March 25th. Oh, yes. Also, one thing I'll bring up as well, the question of the interim. So 00:53:52.002 --> 00:54:03.978 - I think we're fine to work on that. But I am talking to an organization that already contracts with 00:54:03.978 --> 00:54:06.014 - the city for the 00:54:06.690 --> 00:54:12.372 - people who count money, accounting reasons, but they also offer lawyers, municipal lawyers, and so I'm 00:54:12.372 --> 00:54:18.055 - talking to them on Friday. I've reached out also to people like Larry Allen and stuff like that to see 00:54:18.055 --> 00:54:23.572 - if they wanted to, if they would consider, you know, have a call with Steven Lucas as well. So this 00:54:23.572 --> 00:54:29.199 - is just for the interim? For the interim, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's because we can, you know, 00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:35.102 - if we need to hire some. I think Larry just got done with piloting housing. Yeah, so I understand too, so. 00:54:36.418 --> 00:54:41.726 - All right. Thank you so much, Isabelle. Safe journeys. We're adjourned.