WEBVTT 00:00:01.282 --> 00:00:09.530 - Well, thank you so much for being here. I'll call to order the special session of the Bloomington Common 00:00:09.530 --> 00:00:17.463 - Council on the date today, March, March 11th, 2026. Our honorable clerk, we please read the call the 00:00:17.463 --> 00:00:25.711 - roll. Council member Flaherty. Stossberg? Zulek? Here. Asari? Here. Daly? Here. Rollo? Here. Ruff? Here. 00:00:25.711 --> 00:00:27.518 - And Rosenberger? Here. 00:00:28.226 --> 00:00:35.257 - Okay, well today and this the special session is a short one when them will transition into a deliberation 00:00:35.257 --> 00:00:42.091 - session I'll be honest we had ambitions the the four of us at the hiring committee to be able to Before 00:00:42.091 --> 00:00:48.662 - this meeting come to an agreement about what we wanted all of the job descriptions to look like and 00:00:48.662 --> 00:00:55.299 - to have those for you but we did not come to an agreement about that instead what we have today is a 00:00:55.299 --> 00:00:56.350 - little bit of a 00:00:56.450 --> 00:01:03.436 - According to our charge we have four options of things that we can at least discuss whether we want 00:01:03.436 --> 00:01:10.423 - to move those forward Now so that they can inform how we want to progress with the job descriptions 00:01:10.423 --> 00:01:17.758 - Of course, we don't have to make a decision on that today But but that's that that is what the committee 00:01:17.758 --> 00:01:24.745 - is prepared to do today. So So what we'll do here is just a very quick very quick sort of update on 00:01:24.745 --> 00:01:26.142 - on our last meeting 00:01:26.242 --> 00:01:33.993 - And then we'll present the, we've come up with four different options. We'll present those options and 00:01:33.993 --> 00:01:41.745 - then hopefully have just some discussion. And if we do come to an agreement, then that'll help us move 00:01:41.745 --> 00:01:49.722 - forward with crafting the job description. So I'll start and then please, Council Member Rallo and Zulik, 00:01:49.722 --> 00:01:55.742 - please feel free to jump in at any time. The way that we see it is that we have 00:01:56.258 --> 00:02:02.756 - as I said, four possibilities. The first one is obvious is the status quo, which is just keep things 00:02:02.756 --> 00:02:09.254 - as they are. We have three lines, keep them in those three lines. You have a lawyer administrator, a 00:02:09.254 --> 00:02:15.752 - deputy lawyer administrator, and then some type of a legal researcher. Choice number two is the idea 00:02:15.752 --> 00:02:22.829 - of separating the administrative functions from the legal functions. Of course, there are some administrative 00:02:22.829 --> 00:02:26.046 - functions that overlap with legal functions, like 00:02:26.466 --> 00:02:34.106 - You know preparing for example legislation But but the main gist of choice two is to separate these 00:02:34.106 --> 00:02:42.129 - two these two roles the question that that begs is where does that administrator then sit and The option 00:02:42.129 --> 00:02:49.922 - that we're proposing is that that person would sit in the clerk's office. So we could talk about what 00:02:49.922 --> 00:02:54.430 - that would be called but you could think of that as like a 00:02:55.010 --> 00:03:01.663 - I don't know, council project manager, a chief clerk for council liaising, chief administrator, something 00:03:01.663 --> 00:03:08.002 - like that. That person would be in the clerk's office and then we would maintain our two lawyers who 00:03:08.002 --> 00:03:14.529 - would just be lawyers. Option three, please add to that. One of the things that we discussed about just 00:03:14.529 --> 00:03:16.286 - in terms of housing, one of 00:03:16.802 --> 00:03:22.637 - Well housing someone who was previously a council staff in the clerk's office is there was a little 00:03:22.637 --> 00:03:28.472 - bit of concern that we might lose some autonomy. So I just want everyone to know that this is not a 00:03:28.472 --> 00:03:34.424 - person that would be making decisions on behalf of council. This is just a person that would be doing 00:03:34.424 --> 00:03:40.493 - a lot of the labor that goes into creating a council meeting whether that be packet preparation or like 00:03:40.493 --> 00:03:46.270 - assisting with scheduling those types of things. So please don't interpret this as we're giving up 00:03:46.562 --> 00:03:57.177 - something. Thank you. The third option was hybrid of option one and two, which is something along the 00:03:57.177 --> 00:04:05.086 - lines of instead of having that third line be a full-time legal researcher, 00:04:05.186 --> 00:04:11.556 - is turning that into two part-time roles. Of course, a lot of extra work would be required to do that, 00:04:11.556 --> 00:04:17.927 - one of whom would sit in the clerk's office with the role that we just described and another who would 00:04:17.927 --> 00:04:24.112 - fulfill the duties of a legal researcher with the other two positions staying more or less the same 00:04:24.112 --> 00:04:26.462 - with a light and administrative load. 00:04:26.626 --> 00:04:33.436 - And then our fourth option. I don't think any of us liked but it's sort of thinking about shifting where 00:04:33.436 --> 00:04:40.117 - the responsibilities within the status quo might lay Which is namely to put more of the administrative 00:04:40.117 --> 00:04:46.993 - burden on the person who's currently the deputy now This is has precedent and then everybody else staying 00:04:46.993 --> 00:04:53.673 - the same. This does have precedent prior with Dan Sherman when and her name is escaping me, but we had 00:04:53.673 --> 00:04:56.592 - a Lawyer who was not yet a licensed attorney 00:04:56.592 --> 00:05:03.440 - attorney, who that's when we first had this legal researcher job. That job was then upgraded when she 00:05:03.440 --> 00:05:10.221 - got her license. Then that's how we ended up with a deputy attorney and a chief attorney. That would 00:05:10.221 --> 00:05:17.001 - be the fourth idea, something like reshifting amongst the three positions that we already have, some 00:05:17.001 --> 00:05:23.916 - of the roles and responsibilities, in a way that you put more of the administration on the deputy than 00:05:23.916 --> 00:05:25.662 - on the lead legal person. 00:05:25.858 --> 00:05:34.895 - Those are the four four ideas anything that I'm missing councilmember Rallo Yes, well, I have a different 00:05:34.895 --> 00:05:43.847 - recollection actually and that is and you know, my opinion is a variation of the current scheme schemata 00:05:43.847 --> 00:05:52.544 - of the council office my main concern is autonomy of the council office and that I would like to keep 00:05:52.544 --> 00:05:54.590 - our duties in house and 00:05:55.234 --> 00:06:05.520 - And so I thought one of the options was to have an attorney Hired but not a Administrator per se but 00:06:05.520 --> 00:06:15.705 - an attorney that would then direct a deputy attorney slash administrator That would have under them 00:06:15.705 --> 00:06:24.158 - a legal researcher for the work that we needed in order to investigate and and and 00:06:24.354 --> 00:06:33.638 - and work on legislation and an additional assistant for administration somebody who could do the work 00:06:33.638 --> 00:06:43.105 - of that is more clerical in nature, you know putting together the essentials of the packet and You know 00:06:43.105 --> 00:06:51.934 - making sure Rooms are reserved or you know what whatever charges other charges are necessary for 00:06:52.130 --> 00:06:59.668 - for just the day-to-day administration. So, you know, my contention is to try to keep it in house because 00:06:59.668 --> 00:07:07.348 - I think that we have limited power as a council and I would hate to have, I mean, what I see is a potential 00:07:07.348 --> 00:07:14.814 - for conflict. If we have somebody who is directed by the clerk to assemble packets and there's a problem 00:07:14.814 --> 00:07:19.934 - with the packet, who does that, whose responsibility does that fall on? 00:07:20.066 --> 00:07:26.487 - Who does the higher firing? Who does, you know, how do we work out the details of this person's role 00:07:26.487 --> 00:07:32.907 - that directly affects council work? So that's my contention. Keep it in house. And if we're going to 00:07:32.907 --> 00:07:39.328 - add an extra FTE and ask the mayor for that, I think that we should, it should be for our office. We 00:07:39.328 --> 00:07:45.939 - have a very limited staff. Thanks. Thank you. Okay, so with that, yeah please, Council Member Flaherty. 00:07:45.939 --> 00:07:49.054 - Can I ask you to clarify the third option again? 00:07:49.378 --> 00:07:56.073 - Fully followed number of staff roles where they sit and what their Purview is so there's there's lots 00:07:56.073 --> 00:08:02.834 - of lots of variations of how it could work But the basic the basic tenet is go from three lines to two 00:08:02.834 --> 00:08:09.595 - full lines and two part-time lines and then lots of different ways that you can arrange what those two 00:08:09.595 --> 00:08:12.286 - those two part-time lines are but Got it 00:08:14.946 --> 00:08:20.682 - So in the second option, are we keeping the legal researcher? Because you didn't mention keeping the 00:08:20.682 --> 00:08:26.418 - legal researcher. No. So it would be getting rid of the legal researcher. Yeah, so keeping the three 00:08:26.418 --> 00:08:32.324 - lines, but turning the third one into an administrator that would sit in the clerk's office. Councilman 00:08:32.324 --> 00:08:38.003 - Flaherty? And I assume, I don't know if it's still called this, but service core fellows and things 00:08:38.003 --> 00:08:43.966 - like that sort of live outside this. We're only talking staff with, yeah. Yep. And yeah, that's another. 00:08:44.098 --> 00:08:50.263 - Question to be answered. I think later which is sort of where might you know Maybe that expands our 00:08:50.263 --> 00:08:56.491 - capability to receive more service core fellows and the type the like like wonderful Michael But you 00:08:56.491 --> 00:09:02.656 - know thinking about sort of where they would sit and be Councilmember Rosenberg. Hi, I'm sorry. I'm 00:09:02.656 --> 00:09:09.192 - not seeing this. Is this a memo that I can know there wasn't one. I'm sorry. I Guess I know I mean almost 00:09:09.192 --> 00:09:11.966 - need like I cannot wrap my mind around these 00:09:12.706 --> 00:09:20.588 - Do you all not have anything in writing that can be passed on to us? No. Did you read something out 00:09:20.588 --> 00:09:28.550 - for this? No. Apologies. I guess I just thought I missed it. Do you just want to go through them all 00:09:28.550 --> 00:09:36.432 - again? I don't know. I'm sorry, everybody. I have nothing to look at. Yeah, sure. No problem. So we 00:09:36.432 --> 00:09:41.950 - have three lines. And option one is keep the three lines as they are. 00:09:42.722 --> 00:09:50.302 - Option two is change line three, which is our legal researcher, to being an administrator that would 00:09:50.302 --> 00:09:57.281 - sit in the clerk's office. Option three is to break up line three into two people part-time. 00:09:57.281 --> 00:10:05.010 - Option four, what was option four? I forgot. So option three, the two part-time, one would live in the 00:10:05.010 --> 00:10:09.438 - clerk's office and one would live in the council's office. 00:10:09.602 --> 00:10:17.715 - the is to split up is to split up line three and then and then option four was to re realign 00:10:17.715 --> 00:10:26.526 - the administrative functions within the status quo. So move those to the deputy administrator rather 00:10:26.526 --> 00:10:32.894 - than rather than to the chief legal person move administrator to deputy. 00:10:40.450 --> 00:10:47.993 - Daily and then councilman Flaherty Just a quick question then on your thoughts on how that plays out 00:10:47.993 --> 00:10:55.611 - because you had said when you're talking about them that option four was the least Attractive one Why 00:10:55.611 --> 00:11:03.154 - yeah, we just didn't think that it I mean and you all tell me if you feel differently but I think at 00:11:03.154 --> 00:11:09.726 - the time when we met just yesterday we didn't feel like the like that really solves any 00:11:09.858 --> 00:11:16.407 - I think it just shifts the burden from one from one position to another so So I mean we were presenting 00:11:16.407 --> 00:11:22.704 - it as an option because it was something we discussed but none of us particularly liked that option 00:11:22.704 --> 00:11:29.001 - Well, I did okay. I like that option Dave loved that option I mean it's worked before it worked for 00:11:29.001 --> 00:11:35.424 - three years under Dan Sherman. It worked for several years under Stephen Lucas The idea of the deputy 00:11:35.424 --> 00:11:37.502 - having all of the administrative 00:11:37.858 --> 00:11:45.470 - Most of it fell on actually was it was sort of a team effort. I think it was shared but yeah, it would 00:11:45.470 --> 00:11:53.081 - be more of the you know, you know, we I think we were told if I'm not mistaken that You know, we can't 00:11:53.081 --> 00:12:00.545 - hire an administrator. We can hire an attorney Yeah, and so the attorney that we hire Should be able 00:12:00.545 --> 00:12:06.974 - to sort this out and in the past it's been sorted out by having the deputy attorney be 00:12:07.234 --> 00:12:14.067 - Share administrative duties in this case. They could share they could have that burden And I think that 00:12:14.067 --> 00:12:21.293 - we should do what we should do is advocate for another At least half FTE or maybe a full to do administrative 00:12:21.293 --> 00:12:27.863 - work that would help the deputy but we need a full-time legal researcher I mean I think that for in 00:12:27.863 --> 00:12:34.499 - my experience for the council office to work optimally with the various ideas that we all have about 00:12:34.499 --> 00:12:35.550 - legislation and 00:12:36.162 --> 00:12:44.158 - You know, we are nine people that would be required, you know, this person would be required to do legal 00:12:44.158 --> 00:12:51.773 - research potentially for nine people. And I think that that's asking a lot. So that's my contention 00:12:51.773 --> 00:12:59.693 - is that leave it as it is and modify it maybe after we hire an attorney. Let them sort it out once they 00:12:59.693 --> 00:13:04.414 - assume the duties of the office and see what their needs are. 00:13:04.674 --> 00:13:10.317 - Excellent, thank you so much, Councilman Felici. Are we just in sort of open discussion slash questions? 00:13:10.317 --> 00:13:15.853 - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, attorneys are legal researchers. They're very good at it, and they can 00:13:15.853 --> 00:13:21.550 - do more than that and develop legislation and other things. And so I think the attractiveness of approach 00:13:21.550 --> 00:13:27.086 - two, which fully separates the administrative function, fully, I don't know if that can be quite fully 00:13:27.086 --> 00:13:32.622 - done. I guess I'm curious about that a little bit, that if we have two full-time attorneys where their 00:13:32.622 --> 00:13:33.374 - main focus is 00:13:33.506 --> 00:13:40.631 - the legal work of helping us understand the legal context and contours of the legislation that we're 00:13:40.631 --> 00:13:47.756 - receiving, helping us develop legislation. That seems like a large capacity out on the legal support 00:13:47.756 --> 00:13:55.023 - front, and it also seems, I guess, in that context, I'm worried about our, I know it did work, I think 00:13:55.023 --> 00:14:02.430 - it was Stacey Jane Rhodes and then Stephen Lucas for a time, but I think we'll be hard pressed to retain 00:14:03.202 --> 00:14:10.450 - barred attorneys who have a substantial administrative function much past the first year or two of their 00:14:10.450 --> 00:14:17.352 - career. I don't think that's what most attorneys went to law school to do. That's a concern I have, 00:14:17.352 --> 00:14:24.600 - I guess, sort of using the old approach, I guess. Additionally, it seems like the administrative burdens 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:31.710 - of the office have increased substantially since, say, five to ten years ago for a variety of reasons. 00:14:32.354 --> 00:14:38.247 - you know, accessibility laws, you know, the, I don't know, maybe just the pace of activity, you know, 00:14:38.247 --> 00:14:44.141 - the management of online meetings, just a bunch of stuff, right? And I'm wondering if that came up in 00:14:44.141 --> 00:14:50.092 - the committee's discussions at all and how you all were thinking about that. And honestly, even if one 00:14:50.092 --> 00:14:56.159 - FTE sitting in the clerk's office is enough to like handle all the administrative duties. And then final 00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:02.110 - question as related to did you consider that is how the chain of command or like interplay between the 00:15:02.530 --> 00:15:07.685 - You know the lead attorney for the council's office and the administrative person sitting in the clerk's 00:15:07.685 --> 00:15:12.742 - office how that would work I mean it can they can they assign things would it be done jointly with the 00:15:12.742 --> 00:15:17.652 - clerk? How would that function? Thank you Do you want to take you want to take that? Okay, Dave. Do 00:15:17.652 --> 00:15:22.660 - you want to talk about that first? Yeah Well, you know how I see it is by having the administrator in 00:15:22.660 --> 00:15:26.686 - the in the clerk's office we're setting ourselves up for a potential conflict and 00:15:27.202 --> 00:15:34.710 - Conflict in packet preparation for one thing the other is that I would like an administrator in-house 00:15:34.710 --> 00:15:42.439 - that's responsible for our budget and responsible for for For scheduling so we have scheduling meetings. 00:15:42.439 --> 00:15:50.241 - I think every Tuesday still we have Okay, we have scheduling meetings with the administration. I expected 00:15:50.241 --> 00:15:54.878 - that that person should answer that a council not the clerk so 00:15:55.298 --> 00:16:01.420 - That is an administrative duty that I would hope that would fall within the domain of the council, as 00:16:01.420 --> 00:16:07.541 - well as the budget, as well as the packet preparation, to at least a major extent. Because otherwise, 00:16:07.541 --> 00:16:11.262 - I think we're setting ourselves up for a conflict. Thank you. 00:16:12.322 --> 00:16:19.736 - I think to answer the question, yes, we did discuss it. And I think, as Councilmember Ralla just illustrated, 00:16:19.736 --> 00:16:26.475 - this is part of the reason why we needed to bring the discussion to a larger group. Because I think 00:16:26.475 --> 00:16:33.484 - that was the big contention point. It's that I think we all get your exact point of... And there's also 00:16:33.484 --> 00:16:35.102 - something that our past 00:16:35.778 --> 00:16:41.641 - our past attorney stroke administrators, including Steven Lucas, have all shared. They were like, 00:16:41.641 --> 00:16:47.684 - you know, the burden of administration is increasing. And so, you know, how do we lessen that burden 00:16:47.684 --> 00:16:53.787 - or share that burden in a better way? But the question that we don't have an answer to is like, okay, 00:16:53.787 --> 00:16:59.830 - well, what does happen if that person's in the clerk's office and they then serve at the pleasure of 00:16:59.830 --> 00:17:01.086 - the clerk? How do we 00:17:01.858 --> 00:17:07.522 - have them, you know, like what charges can be given, how do they work together with the attorneys, with 00:17:07.522 --> 00:17:13.186 - counsel, like a lot of those type of questions I think we need to iron out if we're of the opinion that 00:17:13.186 --> 00:17:18.468 - we'd want to move this position to the clerk's office. There's another caveat, which is, I mean, 00:17:18.468 --> 00:17:23.968 - we sort of, by process of elimination, assume that the place where you put it is the clerk's office. 00:17:23.968 --> 00:17:29.578 - I mean, could be somewhere else, I guess, but I don't know if there's a better option than the clerk's 00:17:29.578 --> 00:17:30.558 - office, but yeah. 00:17:30.882 --> 00:17:32.862 - Well, I'm also kind of. 00:17:35.106 --> 00:17:40.509 - So I guess a few things are going through my mind. One is I feel like we're talking about administrative 00:17:40.509 --> 00:17:45.963 - function and administrative burden and putting it all together in one bunch of stuff. And I think there's 00:17:45.963 --> 00:17:51.160 - lots of different pieces of administration. And there's some that would have to stay with our staff. 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:56.563 - And so ironing out and understanding what would need to stay with our staff and what could go with maybe 00:17:56.563 --> 00:18:01.760 - a more dedicated administrative person would be really important. And I guess I would kind of wonder 00:18:01.760 --> 00:18:02.686 - in terms of like, 00:18:02.818 --> 00:18:09.296 - What maybe you know in terms of packet preparation in terms of some of the accessibility stuff in terms 00:18:09.296 --> 00:18:15.525 - of some of that like scheduling piece and that kind of like calendaring stuff I feel like that that 00:18:15.525 --> 00:18:21.816 - person could potentially make more sense to go underneath the administration somewhere or out of the 00:18:21.816 --> 00:18:28.232 - mayor's office somewhere because I mean the I don't know if I'm assuming the legislative assistant and 00:18:28.232 --> 00:18:32.094 - the mayor's office still comes to the scheduling meetings and 00:18:32.194 --> 00:18:38.287 - But it and especially when it comes to I mean the stuff that goes into our Wednesday packets I mean 00:18:38.287 --> 00:18:44.623 - it comes from the administration and then also has to go through You know this process of our attorneys 00:18:44.623 --> 00:18:50.715 - reading it to make sure that there's not something going wrong with it and they would still need to 00:18:50.715 --> 00:18:57.356 - do that and It would almost like make more sense to go. Okay. Well, then if this person who's then preparing 00:18:57.356 --> 00:18:58.270 - the packet and 00:18:58.434 --> 00:19:05.307 - And packet preparation is also going to have to change because of accessibility in terms of links and 00:19:05.307 --> 00:19:12.248 - things. I don't know if that has been discussed. Does it make sense to put that person in that office? 00:19:12.248 --> 00:19:14.270 - What does the administration? 00:19:14.370 --> 00:19:20.561 - Think about that how the same questions maybe could arise in terms of that like structure and reporting 00:19:20.561 --> 00:19:26.753 - structure But because clerk staff all report to the clerk in this very Structured way according to code 00:19:26.753 --> 00:19:33.182 - and according to state code like I'm kind of with councilmember Rolla. It makes me kind of uncomfortable. I 00:19:34.146 --> 00:19:40.807 - to put somebody who's essentially a dedicated staff member for counsel into the clerk's office and I 00:19:40.807 --> 00:19:47.403 - guess I may be less uncomfortable putting that into the administration somewhere because so much of 00:19:47.403 --> 00:19:54.196 - the stuff that goes in the packet is coming from the administration already in terms of ordinances and 00:19:54.196 --> 00:20:01.319 - Reports and all of those pieces like that person communicate could would communicate so much with different 00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:02.110 - departments 00:20:02.210 --> 00:20:08.234 - Different people in different departments who come to us for things. Yep Okay. Yeah, so I have a couple 00:20:08.234 --> 00:20:14.199 - of thoughts of that and also clerk McDowell at any point. Feel free to also a pine Go ahead councilman 00:20:14.199 --> 00:20:16.574 - Rosalick. Oh, I just have a couple um, I 00:20:16.802 --> 00:20:23.253 - We did schedule our next hiring committee meeting for Tuesday at 5 p.m. And so we are planning to discuss 00:20:23.253 --> 00:20:29.642 - the job responsibilities if we are able to identify which option that we wanted to go to go with tonight 00:20:29.642 --> 00:20:35.728 - and so part of the reason that some of those questions are unanswered is because we haven't like we 00:20:35.728 --> 00:20:37.310 - will be discussing it and 00:20:37.698 --> 00:20:43.880 - after this. And I think that you raise a good point as well, which is, you know, I mean, these things 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:50.123 - sort of go together. We sort of stalled at the very thing that we're stalling at here yesterday at our 00:20:50.123 --> 00:20:56.730 - meeting. But obviously, once we approve, once you all, we all as a body approve the actual job descriptions, 00:20:56.730 --> 00:21:03.518 - I think it does maybe help us tease out some of, you know, what are the duties that we're really talking about. 00:21:03.682 --> 00:21:11.071 - you know, in both cases. So maybe some of that just gets teased out as we go. But just a general sense 00:21:11.071 --> 00:21:18.531 - in the room though, I mean, are we all, do we all generally share the idea that part of, and I'm sorry, 00:21:18.531 --> 00:21:26.494 - that's a leading question, but like, I don't know how to ask it in any other way, sorry, being too colloquial. 00:21:26.850 --> 00:21:34.321 - Do you disagree with the idea that we want to separate the administration the administrative functions 00:21:34.321 --> 00:21:41.647 - from our the the attorneys that we would hire like the the bulk of the clerical elements of of those 00:21:41.647 --> 00:21:49.408 - administrative functions anybody disagree with that point see Councilor rough I'm not saying I necessarily 00:21:49.408 --> 00:21:56.734 - disagree with it. But as Councilor Rosenberger said I I saw nothing about this yet You know, this is 00:21:57.442 --> 00:22:05.086 - This is proposing makings potentially some very dramatic changes to some complex interactions and workings 00:22:05.086 --> 00:22:12.229 - to get legislation and Council business done There's no way between now. I'll just tell you nothing 00:22:12.229 --> 00:22:19.730 - between now next Tuesday. I'm gonna feel comfortable that we're going to put some changes based on times 00:22:19.730 --> 00:22:26.302 - discussion into a New job description or to somehow apply it to the job search starting now 00:22:26.402 --> 00:22:34.287 - And and I don't necessarily agree That there is a significant amount of work that needs to be shifted 00:22:34.287 --> 00:22:42.250 - away From council staff the way it has been has has been pointed out It worked extreme it's worked for 00:22:42.250 --> 00:22:49.981 - a long time That doesn't mean there can't it can't be improved doesn't mean it can't be tweaked but 00:22:49.981 --> 00:22:54.078 - to just charge in and and make dramatic changes when 00:22:55.266 --> 00:23:05.839 - There's really not evidence that the system was broken Right and you know, I I still talk with Stephen 00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:16.515 - Lucas and It wasn't The primary reason of his of his leaving would had nothing to do with the work-life 00:23:16.515 --> 00:23:19.902 - balance And so my strong feeling 00:23:20.962 --> 00:23:27.686 - Based on the very limited information and I've had about this in the short time. We've had to think 00:23:27.686 --> 00:23:34.814 - about it and discuss it is With this job search which we need to start pretty soon We should move forward 00:23:34.814 --> 00:23:41.606 - with what the current we have job descriptions, you know, we have something to move forward with now 00:23:41.606 --> 00:23:48.330 - We make the hire and we use that time as has been described I think some of my fellow costs council 00:23:48.330 --> 00:23:49.406 - members tonight 00:23:49.506 --> 00:23:56.457 - We use that time to work with that person. How can we how can we decide exactly what all what duties 00:23:56.457 --> 00:24:03.407 - are problematic or could be moved best or what they're most comfortable with? I just like we'll need 00:24:03.407 --> 00:24:10.427 - that input. We got my instinct is go with what we've got. We've got something that we know has worked 00:24:10.427 --> 00:24:16.414 - for decades. Not perfectly or flawlessly but to go in and just dramatically change it. 00:24:18.722 --> 00:24:27.467 - When we don't really know none of us have done that all that work that work that goes on behind the 00:24:27.467 --> 00:24:36.300 - scenes to to make our work happen and I I'm totally opposed to any dramatic changes this quickly and 00:24:36.300 --> 00:24:45.133 - not involving someone who's directly Participated or will be participating as and maybe our new hire 00:24:45.133 --> 00:24:47.582 - in distribute to figure now 00:24:47.778 --> 00:24:54.555 - How we're going to do this how a better way might be to shift some of the duties around that's how I 00:24:54.555 --> 00:25:01.332 - feel. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Well, I think we should consider the circumstances of 00:25:01.332 --> 00:25:05.694 - the different staff that we've had Dan Sherman served for a very 00:25:06.210 --> 00:25:13.623 - served for quite a long time and so he had a long time to be able to acclimate to the position and Steve 00:25:13.623 --> 00:25:20.824 - and Lucas was fortunate enough to come up through the council staff and Operate in the council office 00:25:20.824 --> 00:25:27.884 - for multiple years before he eventually became attorney And so I'm concerned that if we leave it as 00:25:27.884 --> 00:25:32.190 - the status quo that a new attorney might not have those same 00:25:32.482 --> 00:25:39.611 - skill sets because a lot of those skills are going to be developed on the job. So I don't have a specific 00:25:39.611 --> 00:25:46.470 - answer but I just want to point that out and also just point out that we did one of our options is to 00:25:46.470 --> 00:25:53.262 - suggest a part-time legal researcher who could maybe fill in some of the gaps that our two attorneys 00:25:53.262 --> 00:25:56.894 - might not be able to finish and then move or create a 00:25:57.058 --> 00:26:04.823 - Part-time position in the clerk's office that would be just for those clerical responsibilities. So 00:26:04.823 --> 00:26:12.899 - I think that Those are some things to keep in mind. Thank you That's what flirty and then the best time 00:26:12.899 --> 00:26:19.966 - to make a change of some kind would be now it's not Realistic I don't think to say we have 00:26:19.966 --> 00:26:25.790 - the job description, you know with much respect to mr. Ruff like it's it's 00:26:26.690 --> 00:26:31.616 - Yes, we have the job descriptions. It's almost similar arguments to council salary of all things. 00:26:31.616 --> 00:26:36.743 - That like, you know, there's some similarities of like, well don't, you know, just go with it because 00:26:36.743 --> 00:26:41.920 - we all knew what it was, but then it's hard to change it at a systems level if you're trying to change 00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:46.946 - it for the next people. And that's kind of like what this is like. If we hire the positions exactly 00:26:46.946 --> 00:26:52.123 - as they exist, that's what you hired for. Like the decision, you know, the die has been cast. Like you 00:26:52.123 --> 00:26:55.742 - can't reformulate everything then, at least definitely not very easily. 00:26:56.514 --> 00:27:02.251 - arguably you could hire the attorney, like if we were going with option four, say, which I think was 00:27:02.251 --> 00:27:08.329 - like mainly just attorney function for the lead attorney, heavier deputy function for the second attorney, 00:27:08.329 --> 00:27:14.180 - you could hire the first one first, because that may be compatible with both systems two and four, and 00:27:14.180 --> 00:27:19.861 - like give them a minute, and then like, sure, have their input and help making that decision. But I 00:27:19.861 --> 00:27:25.598 - think the evidence is mixed. I know it worked well for Dan Sherman for 30 year plus career, I think. 00:27:25.826 --> 00:27:31.795 - and that we had some success with it. I also think the demands of the job administratively have shifted 00:27:31.795 --> 00:27:37.592 - quite a bit, as I noted. So I do think we're in a changed context, and I think the recent experience 00:27:37.592 --> 00:27:43.503 - has not been positive. And I know there's multiple factors going into all that, but I think the design 00:27:43.503 --> 00:27:49.357 - of the office and how the positions are staffed was part of it, as I understand. So I don't feel like 00:27:49.357 --> 00:27:55.326 - we have strong evidence of this is a successful model, and as much as it might cause us some discomfort 00:27:55.490 --> 00:28:01.774 - weighed into uncertainty. And yes, it's high stakes in a sense. It's also always changeable. If we run 00:28:01.774 --> 00:28:07.875 - into conflicts and it's just really not working with an administrative person housed in the clerk's 00:28:07.875 --> 00:28:13.976 - office, we can eliminate the position and go back to what it was. I know that involves hiccups too, 00:28:13.976 --> 00:28:20.138 - but it's kind of like a no risk, no reward thing to me. I see the benefits and opportunity of trying 00:28:20.138 --> 00:28:23.006 - something different, and I think I favor that. 00:28:23.330 --> 00:28:31.338 - Approach of trying to separate those functions. I like the design of option two Obviously, we have a 00:28:31.338 --> 00:28:39.267 - diversity of opinions up here. So where we land, I don't know but Just some counterpoints the links 00:28:39.267 --> 00:28:47.196 - I think counselor Stossberg and then comes Marella I'm kind of feeling a little bit like a both and 00:28:47.196 --> 00:28:52.350 - right now too. I'm just reading through the job description that 00:28:52.546 --> 00:29:00.927 - We approved last year for the attorney position which is different than the one that was shared in the 00:29:00.927 --> 00:29:09.634 - Google Drive earlier if that if anybody wasn't aware of that but most of those essential primary actually, 00:29:09.634 --> 00:29:18.910 - I think all of the essential primary duties are all legal or supervisory and the non-essential secondary ones are 00:29:20.002 --> 00:29:26.201 - there's only one that really falls under administrative, which is answering telephones, greeting visitors, 00:29:26.201 --> 00:29:31.994 - et cetera, which I think anytime you work in an office, there's the chance no matter what your job, 00:29:31.994 --> 00:29:37.961 - you're going to have to answer a phone or greet somebody in the office. So that doesn't bother me. And 00:29:37.961 --> 00:29:43.927 - kind of looking at this, I do think that this job description is pretty good for whatever that primary 00:29:43.927 --> 00:29:45.086 - attorney is that we 00:29:45.442 --> 00:29:51.731 - Need in terms of somebody directing an office So I'm kind of with councilmember rough and going like 00:29:51.731 --> 00:29:58.455 - let's get this one advertised at the very least and technically like this is the one that that we supervise 00:29:58.455 --> 00:30:04.744 - as a body this is the one that we hire as a body and the other ones all report to this person and so 00:30:04.744 --> 00:30:11.157 - then Cooperatively working with this person to figure out what it is that they want or what they think 00:30:11.157 --> 00:30:14.270 - is best for them moving forward I think that that 00:30:14.594 --> 00:30:20.264 - In some way it would take longer to maybe staff the full office. Yeah, but maybe makes more sense long 00:30:20.264 --> 00:30:25.934 - term And the other thing that I want to bring up is all four of these options have the assumption that 00:30:25.934 --> 00:30:31.549 - we want to full-time attorneys, right? Do we want to fold him attorneys? Do we want but you know this 00:30:31.549 --> 00:30:37.109 - this main person to be a full-time attorney and then do we want a part-time attorney? Mm-hmm, right, 00:30:37.109 --> 00:30:42.174 - right and and and then do like one and a half part-time attorneys and then like a full-time 00:30:42.274 --> 00:30:49.376 - researcher and then a part-time Administrative person like I guess I feel like there's like other options 00:30:49.376 --> 00:30:56.076 - in here. Yep I mean one of the benefits that that Lisa shared with me about having two attorneys is 00:30:56.076 --> 00:31:03.044 - then you can bounce ideas off and Have that kind of collaborative nature and that yeah that can be done 00:31:03.044 --> 00:31:09.744 - with city legal, but you know sometimes Council what what council is looking at and what city legal 00:31:09.744 --> 00:31:11.486 - is looking at or kind of? 00:31:11.810 --> 00:31:19.243 - at odds, potentially, depending on what the research is, what the thing is. And so having a second part-time 00:31:19.243 --> 00:31:26.063 - attorney might actually allow for that, but in some ways also split off some of that administrative 00:31:26.063 --> 00:31:33.087 - work or some of that, as you called it, like if you go to law school and you get barred, then you want 00:31:33.087 --> 00:31:39.838 - to do legal work. You don't want to do administrative work. But perhaps you could have a part-time 00:31:40.002 --> 00:31:47.434 - legal researcher that does do more of the administrative work, which I think has also been for the folks 00:31:47.434 --> 00:31:54.511 - that we've employed for Christine, who had a lot of that related experience already. She found that 00:31:54.511 --> 00:32:01.660 - stuff very interesting. And even that clerical stuff was still good for her. I think that Aria feels 00:32:01.660 --> 00:32:05.694 - the same way in terms of her background, and they're not 00:32:05.858 --> 00:32:12.125 - They're both on a track to be attorneys, but they're not there yet. And I mean, this is Bloomington. 00:32:12.125 --> 00:32:18.703 - There's a lot of people in town that might have some of those skills that can be useful in the researcher 00:32:18.703 --> 00:32:24.971 - context. And then they would be totally fine with some of that more administrative piece, as long as 00:32:24.971 --> 00:32:31.300 - we have that part-time attorney. The thing that I don't know is whether there are attorneys out there 00:32:31.300 --> 00:32:35.582 - that want part-time, consistent like this, as opposed to contracted. 00:32:35.970 --> 00:32:43.556 - And I don't like I just don't know Thank you Councilmember Rosenberger then roll I would say I Really 00:32:43.556 --> 00:32:51.514 - want to full-time attorneys I think there's a lot of legal work that I've been that's been held up because 00:32:51.514 --> 00:32:59.100 - it hasn't there's been like zero time to get it done I mean, I understand if we try to make space and 00:32:59.100 --> 00:33:01.406 - take packet production off our 00:33:02.210 --> 00:33:08.566 - attorney's plate, it can be different, but I think there, in our work, there is a lot that an attorney 00:33:08.566 --> 00:33:14.675 - has to have their eyes on no matter what. At some point in the process, it just really complicates 00:33:14.675 --> 00:33:21.093 - everything. I will say, just like, as an attorney, I think that I haven't been able to get my questions 00:33:21.093 --> 00:33:27.264 - asked and answered by anyone in our office other than the attorneys, so the legal researchers don't 00:33:27.264 --> 00:33:28.190 - have, I think, 00:33:28.450 --> 00:33:36.887 - that experience, and even sometimes our attorneys don't have the experience. We're all looking it up. 00:33:36.887 --> 00:33:45.654 - I think having two full-time attorneys is really important. I do also wonder if anything we do part-time, 00:33:45.654 --> 00:33:54.091 - if it just limits the applicant pool. That could really go either way, so I think it's just something 00:33:54.091 --> 00:33:55.166 - to consider. 00:33:56.194 --> 00:34:04.971 - I have said for a long time since before we hired our last two staff that I don't think we have enough 00:34:04.971 --> 00:34:13.663 - hours of workers in the office and I would opt for like I Kind of just lost my oh it closed an option 00:34:13.663 --> 00:34:22.270 - for with I forget what option for is it's the It's the the redistribution essentially I would just I 00:34:22.402 --> 00:34:28.295 - add that person in as a new, a fourth employee in the council office. I think I'd like look forward 00:34:28.295 --> 00:34:34.365 - to potentially in the next year and a half being able to like write legislation. And I think right now 00:34:34.365 --> 00:34:40.553 - we just like don't have attorneys to do it. And there's like so many proceed, even with the new, I mean, 00:34:40.553 --> 00:34:46.799 - with the mayor only being two years old here, like there's so, there's been so many procedural questions, 00:34:46.799 --> 00:34:47.742 - right. And, um, 00:34:48.610 --> 00:34:55.683 - So I just I like the idea of another staff person and I think to me that's almost easiest to get going. 00:34:55.683 --> 00:35:02.688 - I mean I hear what council member Ruff is saying and then Stossberg that our the job description right 00:35:02.688 --> 00:35:09.693 - now doesn't have a lot in it. That's not legal. I mean I even thought though about develop submits and 00:35:09.693 --> 00:35:16.222 - executes the budget. I mean what if like that job gets switched to an operations administrative 00:35:16.322 --> 00:35:23.444 - Person but then this job is still to like approve the final budget, right? Like I don't know things 00:35:23.444 --> 00:35:30.779 - that could be taken off but with approval of this position, I guess Okay, we will go to see councilman 00:35:30.779 --> 00:35:38.043 - as you look we just have about five minutes of And we don't have to make any decisions today anyways, 00:35:38.043 --> 00:35:42.174 - because we already have a charge Nine whole minutes great 00:35:42.306 --> 00:35:48.022 - We already have a charge, just reminding you of two things. We already have a charge that we've all, 00:35:48.022 --> 00:35:53.738 - I see, I see, I see. Oh yeah, I said you were before Zulik, so yeah, so Rollo and then Zulik. But we 00:35:53.738 --> 00:35:59.398 - already have a charge, so we don't have to take up any vote today or anything like that. One of the 00:35:59.398 --> 00:36:05.057 - things in the charge is that you will all see the job description before they go out, so you can be 00:36:05.057 --> 00:36:07.774 - easy with that. But go ahead, Councilman Rollo. 00:36:07.938 --> 00:36:14.469 - So I'm trying to establish points of agreement with my colleagues and I happen to agree broadly with 00:36:14.469 --> 00:36:20.935 - a lot of things that have been said one thing that was said by councilmember Stasberg is that there 00:36:20.935 --> 00:36:27.596 - are non-essential duties that are administrative that could be shifted and That that's that's logical. 00:36:27.596 --> 00:36:34.062 - There's probably little hazard in doing that and it could actually be the administrative role to do 00:36:34.062 --> 00:36:35.614 - that So that's possible 00:36:35.778 --> 00:36:43.225 - However, again, it comes down to, in an office you have a hierarchy and you have expectations, and if 00:36:43.225 --> 00:36:50.598 - those aren't fulfilled, then you have a chain of command that you look to. If we divide duties, then 00:36:50.598 --> 00:36:57.972 - you end up with potential conflict. That to me is still unresolved, but the non-essential duties are 00:36:57.972 --> 00:37:04.542 - essentially, I think, I'm relatively at peace with that, and I want to explore that more. 00:37:04.674 --> 00:37:12.092 - Statute says that we can hire an attorney. According to Corporation Council Margie Rice, it's silent 00:37:12.092 --> 00:37:19.584 - on hiring an administrator. Doesn't say one way or another. Apparently some cities have. In any case, 00:37:19.584 --> 00:37:26.929 - it seems to me that in the past, as it could be going forward, those administrative duties could be 00:37:26.929 --> 00:37:34.494 - shared. Could be shared on the relative importance and complexity at various levels within the office. 00:37:34.658 --> 00:37:42.873 - If I understood Councilman Rosenberger, she you were saying Whatever number of the scheme you said number 00:37:42.873 --> 00:37:50.855 - four, but I took that to mean attorney Deputy attorney administrator legal researcher and then another 00:37:50.855 --> 00:37:58.683 - FTE that would be involved in Administrative work. Is that correct? Okay, because that's that's what 00:37:58.683 --> 00:38:04.030 - I favor too. I think that we should have two full-time attorneys and 00:38:04.354 --> 00:38:12.639 - I think that it's important to have a backup, and it's also, in my experience, a collaborative and reaching 00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:20.310 - agreement on things that have levels of complexity and controversy is helpful to have two attorneys 00:38:20.310 --> 00:38:28.211 - collaborating and consulting with each other. But the main thing is that there are things that I would 00:38:28.211 --> 00:38:29.822 - be really regretful. 00:38:29.986 --> 00:38:36.034 - Certain administrative duties like scheduling and oversight the oversight of the packet and the council 00:38:36.034 --> 00:38:42.256 - budget were to be in a different Where to be outside the council office? I mean those things are essential 00:38:42.256 --> 00:38:48.071 - that we should be controlling It seems to me and if we're gonna create another FTE want to do it in 00:38:48.071 --> 00:38:54.177 - the council office I mean we've been you know, we haven't asked for much have we? For years and it seems 00:38:54.177 --> 00:38:59.934 - to me that we and that another FTE is needed because we're all in agreement more work is happening 00:39:00.514 --> 00:39:08.407 - We have zooming and things like that. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, it just might be worth 00:39:08.407 --> 00:39:16.377 - reaching out to our public access counselor on whether or not we actually can hire. OK, we don't. Well, 00:39:16.377 --> 00:39:24.040 - if there were any experts. But I think that the question that we need answered is whether or not we 00:39:24.040 --> 00:39:28.638 - can hire a non-attorney in our office or someone who is not 00:39:29.090 --> 00:39:38.788 - meant for legal research Thoughts here just to say I forgot to add I'm happy with the current job description 00:39:38.788 --> 00:39:47.869 - Thank You customer rough. Yeah, I just want to make one Observation or ask a question of my colleagues 00:39:47.869 --> 00:39:52.542 - that made this point. So I heard people say well you 00:39:52.898 --> 00:39:58.644 - You we don't use the current job description for this next hire because then you can't really change 00:39:58.644 --> 00:40:04.446 - it once You know you make the hiring things are going yet at the same time. I heard someone say Well, 00:40:04.446 --> 00:40:10.135 - if we choose option two and move some of the duties to the clerk's office and it's not working Then 00:40:10.135 --> 00:40:15.881 - we can just change it. Well that involves the council's office staff that we're gonna be hiring so I 00:40:15.881 --> 00:40:17.758 - don't see the difference between 00:40:18.018 --> 00:40:24.914 - Really substantively between saying well, we could change it in one way, but then we can't change it 00:40:24.914 --> 00:40:32.015 - this way councilmember daily I was just gonna circle back to something that councilmember Flaherty said 00:40:32.015 --> 00:40:39.252 - a while ago I think I understood what he was saying was that you know our our attorneys They're in legal. 00:40:39.252 --> 00:40:46.216 - They do research that is their job. So I guess I'm wondering and this might be totally shaking up the 00:40:46.216 --> 00:40:47.582 - snow globe What? Oh 00:40:48.002 --> 00:40:53.615 - Thank you. Sorry, and this might be totally shaking things up But maybe we don't need to have then that 00:40:53.615 --> 00:40:59.011 - third role that legal researcher if we have attorneys who are doing that and then turn that into an 00:40:59.011 --> 00:41:04.624 - administrative role Just throwing yet another thought on the table I don't know if that's what you were 00:41:04.624 --> 00:41:10.236 - getting at and if I'm way off base, I apologize Yeah, sure very briefly a hundred percent agree We need 00:41:10.236 --> 00:41:15.903 - the question answered about the administrative role if it can be in the council office great do it Maybe 00:41:15.903 --> 00:41:17.630 - to call the cities that do that 00:41:17.954 --> 00:41:23.511 - and yeah, use corporation counsel to assist us, but I think just to briefly distinguish following Mr. 00:41:23.511 --> 00:41:29.339 - Ruff's comments, Council Member Ruff's comments, I think if it's an administrative role that isn't working 00:41:29.339 --> 00:41:34.896 - in service to our attorneys, that's very different than saying this doesn't work, we need a different 00:41:34.896 --> 00:41:40.398 - administrative function, than telling our lead attorney that your job description isn't what we want 00:41:40.398 --> 00:41:45.846 - anymore and we're just gonna change it and you can keep your job or not. It feels to me like it's a 00:41:45.846 --> 00:41:47.262 - total office restructure, 00:41:47.394 --> 00:41:54.987 - Versus like I don't know making it I guess it feels like different in scale of like how to make adjustments. 00:41:54.987 --> 00:42:02.302 - That's all Okay, we have two minutes. So any last comments? Councilmember Rosenberger, we do have hybrid 00:42:02.302 --> 00:42:04.670 - positions right now. I think to I 00:42:04.962 --> 00:42:10.305 - To get around the attorney hiring thing, I mean attorney administrator, I think we could have legal 00:42:10.305 --> 00:42:15.755 - research and operations. I think too we talk a lot about administrative, but I think about it as like 00:42:15.755 --> 00:42:21.205 - office management and operations, right? Pens, pencils, all the constituent services is a huge thing, 00:42:21.205 --> 00:42:26.014 - which could also be like initial legal research for a constituent or something like that. 00:42:26.658 --> 00:42:33.755 - I think I asked this in our last meeting but if I just couldn't find I just didn't look up the state 00:42:33.755 --> 00:42:40.782 - code if it says we can only have the positions of attorney and legal researcher or if those are the 00:42:40.782 --> 00:42:48.020 - people we need to hire because those are two different things. All right. Last comment. OK. Well thank 00:42:48.020 --> 00:42:52.798 - you all. Would you something come from Salzburg. It's not worth it. 00:42:52.962 --> 00:43:00.050 - Okay, well, the hiring committee's gonna meet on Tuesday again. Hopefully we can, from what we've heard, 00:43:00.050 --> 00:43:07.003 - sort of get that together and make a little bit of motion here to bring it back to you all at our next 00:43:07.003 --> 00:43:13.955 - meeting to vote on something amongst the many things in our charge. So thank you so much for the time, 00:43:13.955 --> 00:43:20.638 - and we'll now get up and transition to the next thing. Thank you all for being here, or adjourned.