- >> I'd like to call this the Mayor Commission regular meeting for May 27th, 2025 to order.
- [BLANK_AUDIO]
- Order of business here is the approval of the minutes that I think we're all sent.
- Can I get a motion to approve the minutes for March 25th and April 22nd, 2025?
- >> I'll make that motion.
- >> And I'll second.
- >> All right, I have a motion and a second.
- Is there any discussion about the minutes?
- >> No.
- >> Hearing none, all in favor say aye.
- >> Aye.
- >> Any opposed?
- >> That motion is successful.
- >> We're rolling right along.
- >> Old business, the adoption of the rules and procedures.
- Can I get a motion to adopt the city of Bloomington Fire and
- Mayor Commission rules and procedures?
- [BLANK_AUDIO]
- >> It's all moved.
- >> Second.
- >> All right, I have a motion and a second.
- >> Is there any discussion about the years and
- procedures?
- >> Go through as I read through in detail.
- >> Sure.
- >> Thank you for sending ahead of time.
- >> Well, there was enough there to read.
- I really was glad I was able to get it to you all with enough days to spend with it.
- >> Some of this stuff, it's probably just me being trying to figure out what I need to know.
- Here trying to figure out the lay of the land and you guys probably already know a lot of these
- answers, but let's see.
- Oh, in the first section under the qualifications section, I noticed that provision for those
- who are honorably discharged and served at least 20 years of military service would get
- could be 40 years and six months.
- I just wondered how we came up with that extra six months.
- >> So it used to be our cutoff was 36 years of age.
- >> Yeah.
- >> So how they come up with 40 years and six months, I guess I'm not sure, but there was
- a significant difference between our maximum hiring age and a military retirement.
- Now that our maximum age has been moved to 40, it makes that six months a lot more
- insignificant than what it used to be.
- But it's always been 40 and a half years.
- >> What I was thinking was if you kind of do the math here, you take a young man or
- woman who's graduated from high school, they would likely enlist at age 19.
- If they served a full 20 years, which would give them a full career in the military and
- then eligibility for their pension, they would be 39 years of age.
- And this adequately covers them, assuming that they'd have enough time.
- Let me try to work my way through this.
- So 39 years old, you'd have a year and a half.
- If you were retired right at 20 years.
- And so does that include the amount of time?
- Can you have to actually be sworn in at 40 and a half years or can that be when you apply?
- >> No, you have to be hired on by that deadline.
- The date of hire has to be before they're 40 and a half years old.
- >> Okay, and that date wasn't set internally, that's straight from the state statute.
- >> That's the statute that the state of Indiana passed.
- >> Okay, so we can't do anything about that.
- >> One of those few times where, you know, we've made age of.
- >> Yeah, well, it makes sense.
- >> It turns out at some point, you're just old enough that you shouldn't start a career
- in the fire department.
- >> Oh, sure, I get that.
- I'm just trying to think logistically.
- >> Whether they've got time to get done with everything in the military.
- >> Whether they do.
- And since it's state mandated, there's nothing we can do about that.
- But the trick for us then is making sure that if we're recruiting somebody or if someone's come
- to us at 18 years of service in the military and saying, you know,
- I'd like to really consider the fire service.
- We need to be on them and say, okay, that's all good.
- We think you'd be a good candidate or whatever.
- But we're going to have to be straight with them and say, you got to get this in.
- You got to get in the process now because it's going to take from the time you leave,
- you've only got a year and a half if you wait until full retirement.
- Because a lot of times these guys, if they retire at 20 years,
- their actual retirement date is going to be, you know, two or three months later because of
- built up leave time and things like that.
- So I don't know how we recruit from the military.
- If we have any kind of things like that that we look at, it'd be a good thing if we did.
- To look for good candidates, I think.
- But we just need to make sure that they know we've got these time limits.
- It is in the application that if you are, you will be this and it is understood.
- It's like question one, you will be, it must be between these ages at the time of hire.
- And so that is we track the birth dates very closely.
- Want to make sure they are of age.
- Now we have the 21 that we must do.
- They must be 21 by the age of hire.
- Even though perf allows the 18 year olds, merit board does not.
- So we have to check birthday.
- So they must be 21 by the date of hire, not to be on the list, but date of hire.
- And then they must, they can be on the list until they get 40 and a half.
- And then, yeah, I'm sorry, but yes.
- But we do have several veterans on our list as it stands right now.
- Not with 20 years, but they are serving right now,
- but getting done with their contracts and whatever.
- But a lot of them have their job site has been governmentjobs.com.
- So we've had, and we get a lot of questions.
- We did have one candidate withdrawal because he was on deployment
- for the entire month of April out of country.
- So we get the decline this time.
- So because we cannot accommodate a line exam for that.
- Essentially, they'd likely need to be a top candidate to make the timeline.
- So if they apply within that year and a half and they do well
- and they're in the X top, whatever candidates,
- they will probably make the timeline and they'll get hired.
- If they were in the bottom of the candidate list,
- odds are against them getting called in time.
- Sure, absolutely, that makes sense.
- And the good part is, you know, let's say you're a Navy medic or an Army medic,
- you probably know that that military occupational specialty transfers,
- you're an EMT by state law, you can get certified pretty easy transferring that over.
- And that gives us, you know, that gives a candidate a one-up.
- And experience.
- Absolutely, great.
- Okay, there was that one.
- And let's go to section D.
- On the aptitude test, I noticed it said 70% or greater
- and 35% of the overall hiring process score.
- You know, that's a great criteria.
- My question is, the written exam, do we, it's from a third-party vendor,
- but there could be differences if it's a third-party,
- is the test different from different vendors?
- Yes.
- Okay, so I guess the thing to be mindful there would be,
- if the test is different, should the standards be different?
- Or is this one of those statements too?
- Generally, I'll say that 70% is passing as far as all state certifications exams
- and they set the passing score at 70% and so that's a general practice, is 70%.
- So we have gone with the firefighter aptitude test.
- Essentially, they have, the criteria they've set for passing
- comes with an element of liability protection because they've vetted it
- and gone through their own HR-related nature to set up the questions.
- We can deviate from it, but then we lose that liability protection that comes with it.
- So they've done their due diligence.
- That's why we picked a specific third party to do it, is they've done their due diligence.
- That becomes the thing I think should be some clarification,
- is the candidates who would like to be considered for hire with this department
- have only one third party vendor to go to because we are contracted with them, correct?
- So they're all using the same third party vendor.
- It's not like they can go out and choose one.
- Yeah, they choose our test.
- There is an optional study guide for which we do not provide,
- but the link and the information is provided to those who ask
- or reach out to someone, hey, is there one, which we encourage people to reach out to HR,
- to the hiring managers and whatnot, you know, for that.
- So then we have, if you pick a vendor, you can,
- you can kind of pick a vendor somewhat related to the rigor of the test.
- Yes.
- Yeah, okay, great.
- This one does corrections, it does police, it does a variety of
- public safety, promotional and general placement, aptitude, hiring exams.
- And then my next question there is in section E, under the agility test,
- the CPAT has a pass/fail, and that's, let's see, is that administered by the third party as well?
- Yes.
- So then the same kind of thing is true there.
- Is there uniform standards for physical fitness or does it differ by vendors?
- It is a national recognized exam, the candidate physical aptitude test,
- and they have to be vetted by the entity, whether, you know, it's the IEFF, the union,
- they have to be vetted and they have to, it takes, it's a few years processed to
- get the certification that that allows them to be in a certified official state site for that.
- So Indiana has several, but they are all throughout the U.S., so it is a very common.
- So is it kind of, is there a state list that we pick from or do we pick any vendor?
- They can just, they just need the card. They could, we have had people from Florida, Illinois,
- from the Illinois State Fire Academy, Colorado, Texas. It's a nationally recognized standard.
- Yes, the testing should be the same. The site location may just be different.
- Yeah. So does that make sense? I'm sorry I did not.
- Standards are all the same nationally. Yes.
- That's great because in, well, I've just seen other departments years ago that
- made up their own. And sometimes that doesn't work so well.
- Right. Okay. In section G,
- yeah. Let's see, my note says any department or just Bloomington.
- It's any department by statute. Any department?
- Yeah, whether you are a firefighter, whether your mother or father was a firefighter or police
- officer. That was exactly my question. Was that limited to Bloomington or was it,
- should we amend that a bit to say any department? Because it's firefighter or police officer,
- I guess that means any department, but that would be my question, whether it's just Bloomington or
- whether it's just Monroe County or. So you think a clarification would, yeah, of any, I mean,
- applicants whose mother or father was a firefighter or police officer
- of any department in the United States? I mean, how do we? Yeah, I mean. What does the state say?
- I say as defined in IC510102, what does that state there? Because it could. I don't know. I have to
- look at the statute. No, that's in the line of duty as defined. Oh, yeah. The line of duty,
- not necessarily. Yeah, that 510102 is talking about line of duty, not firefighter or police officer.
- There's a definition for whether you died in the line of duty.
- Yeah, so I guess we could leave it that way, just the way it is, but
- applicants whose mother or father were firefighter or police officer
- of any department who died in the line, maybe that kind of thing.
- Does everybody think about that? I'm just rattling this stuff off, guys. Chime in if you think I'm
- out to lunch somewhere. I just, when I read, because I just read this completely
- as a lay person, having never read it before, and then I started thinking,
- I don't know what that means, you know, whether I could be from the Wadooga Police Department or
- whether
- I have to be from the Los Angeles Fire Department, you know, or the Bloomington Fire Department,
- for that matter. Okay, well if that's the intent of any department, sounds good to me. Well,
- should I add that language? Because the motion will then be
- um, as amended? As amended, right?
- And that would allow us to still adopt it? Yeah, we'll adopt it tonight and I'll just make those
- changes. We will have, we will have adopted this set as amended tonight, right? So, so anything,
- any amendments, so we have to, I'm going to add it of any department to G, so your motion is going
- to
- be to adopt these rules as amended. Okay, the reason I waited to bring all this up, I just,
- I felt by Robert's rules, we needed to get it on the floor first before we started talking about it.
- Right, that's how I'm doing it. Good. It's on the floor right now. Great. And so we're discussing
- and
- now, so technically the motion will have to be restated and, right? So can I get a motion to
- adopt these rules as amended? So moved, seconded. Any more discussion? Hearing none, right? That'll
- be the... Do we want to wait to see if there are any other? We'll go through all the amendments
- first,
- okay, if there are any others. Let's see.
- I was looking at H and I really, I think that H is good because it gives us maximum flexibility.
- There's no, we're not specifying what kind of things we're looking for in a social media account.
- We're not specifying the depth of criminal history. We can't begin to start. So we've got plenty of
- flexibility. Yeah. Good. Okay then. And social media changes so much. Absolutely. To try and
- explain it and express it in any kind of terms. Yeah. Social media accounts captures, you know,
- pretty much anything that we might generically consider as social media. Yeah, and that's a
- great thing because that can change over time. You know, what could be a standard that we would
- accept today? We might not in a year. Yeah. And, but of course we have to be careful of that too.
- So it's good. And then my next thing was in section two, subsection A3.
- Score received by the member on the assessment center. I, yeah. What, yeah, what is the assessment
- center? I don't know what the assessment center is. So that would vary depending on the promotion
- they saw after, but it's essentially a course that evaluates your skill set
- as it correlates to that position. So a driver, the assessment center would have to do with pump
- operations, maps, driving. An officer would be command situations, personnel issues, admin things.
- So it's basically running them through scenarios and seeing how they perform competitively with
- the point system and evaluators. So really the assessment center is specific to the position.
- Correct. Okay.
- Okay, that helps me understand. That's good. Okay, then
- maybe I missed it, but I don't know if I got exhibit A.
- Was it attached someplace? It mentions exhibit A and section B there. Oh,
- we did not provide you with exhibit A, the promotional guide.
- No, that's fine. I just thought, gee, did you delete that email or?
- You didn't miss anything. Okay, good. I think I did.
- So it's the promo guide. Okay. That's meant to be a live document.
- I think the fear was if we were to permanently attach it to this, then as it modifies to,
- you know, be custom for the department as best fit,
- we would like you to have access to the live document so you can see the current version of
- it and not a previous one. So we talk about that promotional guide and that guide is modified
- time to time and then we attach to the most current version. Okay. So the assessment,
- the promotional guide, is that a tool that helps department members understand how to get promoted?
- Exactly. It shows what's required to retrack each appointment, time and service, what the...
- State certifications are that are required. Great. Okay. Next is in E there, Chris.
- Yeah. That looks like the sentence didn't get completed after "however" in my version.
- However, only those member. Yeah.
- Typo. Boy, I wish you'd have pointed that out to me. I'm sorry. As I looked through all this,
- I thought, oh god, I don't want to put all this in an email.
- I thought maybe there may have been a colon there, but then I thought, oh no,
- there's probably a little more to that. All right. Hold on a second. Let me see
- if a previous version had the whole thing there. Could have.
- Let's see what the first version said. Section 2
- E. Right? Which section I'm sorry? Yeah, 2 E. Uh-huh. 2 E. Yeah, the first paragraph.
- Written competitive examination. For a written competitive examination may be held to fill the
- current more expected vacancy in the ranks, the member eligible to take the examination.
- No, it's right before that, Chris. That's subsection 1, so it's right here.
- Yeah, that preamble is not in the first version, so I added it. Any member who qualifies
- in length of service and rank may take a written competitive examination administered by the
- department. However, only those member. Max? G-Flip was looking right now. Yeah, I'm trying
- to look and see in our notes. What were we trying to get to there?
- Are you jogging your memory at all? No, I'm gonna have to.
- Where are we looking on E? We are in the very, that preamble. There's a little preamble right
- after competitive examination and before the number one. So it's E just before one,
- E where it says written competitive exam, and then... Because the very first one you sent out
- didn't have anything, and you're saying that's what you added. Yeah, we added something. I was
- looking for an older version of my habit, but that one didn't have anything.
- Yeah, there's gotta be a reason there, because there was a however you wanted to put it. Yeah,
- and I must have gotten a phone call or moved away from it, came back after lunch or something.
- Utilities called you. Right, yeah. So I never got back to finishing the thought.
- I don't have a comment attached to that portion of it. The next comment is a little bit further
- down.
- Sorry about that. That's okay. I'm glad you caught it. I'm not sure what we were trying to say
- there.
- Well, we can always... Something that you brought up, Max. I remember you had a concern with,
- you had a concern about
- the ability to take the examination. There was some limiting factor you wanted to talk about,
- but I can't for the life of me remember what it was now.
- It doesn't trigger anything. Maybe it has something to do with people who have taken it before
- or somebody that is actually qualified to take it or has time in grade or something like that.
- I'm just guessing.
- Maybe was it however only those members that possess
- the required promotional items may take... Yeah, I think that was it.
- However, only those members that possess the required promotional...
- Meet the requirements made to take the written exam.
- Yeah, so it's not just time and rank and service. You also have to have the
- promotional guide elements to be able to take the written test. I believe that was it.
- Or the ability to get.
- Well, so that would allow some flexibility because right now it states that
- all you have to have is the proper length of service and rank, but clearly you would need
- to have the promotional requirements beyond that to be able to take it.
- So we could state it as currently possess or have the ability to possess if you wanted to
- allow some flexibility. And the concept there is if the department has a significant need for a
- position and we're somewhat in this boat now, but we're handling it OK. Say, for example,
- you have many very new people and they're willing and able to get the certifications to get
- the promotions. They just haven't had ample time yet, but we have a need today to fill them.
- Sometimes you can have some leeway where as long as they look like they're ready for the spot,
- they can get the certification that's missing within a year or something like that.
- So the language here could potentially allow for something like that, depending on how we worded it.
- That makes sense. I mean, open to opinions as well.
- Has thoughts on it.
- So I just need some good language to put in there that encapsulates what you're trying to say there.
- However, only those members that possess
- the required, what was it, required promotion requirements or have the ability to within a,
- however, only those members that possess the promotion requirements or have the ability to
- obtain them within the predetermined period may take the written examination.
- And then it becomes a question of how much time you're going to give them.
- Well, could that be less?
- I don't know. Would that be appropriate to leave flexible? Because we wouldn't,
- we wouldn't offer it if there wasn't a need to. But if there.
- I don't like the idea of just kind of leaving it up to chance.
- How about not to exceed when you have possessed the current promotional requirements or have the
- ability to obtain them in a period within one year. However, only those members that possess
- the promotional requirements within one year of their promotion.
- No, because that's just to take the exam within one year of taking the exam.
- Also, we don't want to leave us so open-ended that then we have to take
- candidates that don't possess the certification yet. Why don't we just leave it as they have to
- have
- it. And if it creates an issue, we can re-approach this at a future meeting and then going forward.
- On the fly at the moment. Yeah. So only those members that possess the promotional requirements
- may take the exam. Is that the proper terminology? Yes. All right. So, however,
- only those members is where it ends, right? And it just says member. However, so I'll amend member.
- However, only those members that possess the promotional requirements may take the examination.
- So that'll be the second. That's E.
- 2G and 2E.
- No, 1G and 2E. Sorry. Yeah. And next there in subsection, let's see, E, section 3. E3? Yeah, E3.
- I wondered, the department will notify each member in writing the score that the member received.
- Score received by a member of the written exam becomes part of the permanent file of the member
- and the member is entitled to access his file for examination. Do we, is there any benefit
- one way or the other? Are the, I guess my question is, are the grade results posted
- for everybody to see? No, everyone does not get access to everyone else's grade. It is
- only the individual. As it stands right now, they're taking an online exam and the person
- can hit submit, get their score, and it shows up on the, what do you, Proctor's website. So they,
- limited people have access to that. And they send it to you? They make it a sheet that they
- can put into their record. So it's a, it'd be a big score sheet, right? So it'll be,
- your test score is this, your assessment center score is this. That ultimate master grade sheet
- is what goes in their permanent file. That gets sent to you by the vendor? No, the internal,
- promotional stuff, this is what we do internally. The only one that we have a third party vendor
- for
- is the CPAC can be anywhere, but is the initial hiring test. Everything else has been done
- internally.
- So then do we have like a roster of who's up next on the promotion list? Yes. Okay. That's what we
- like to create. That's good. Yes, so if it's a competitive position, there'll be those that
- fill the immediate need followed by the ranking of those that didn't. And as long as they pass,
- then they're eligible to promote within X amount of time from that list as the need arises.
- They're not ranked in any order? They are ranked based on their performance, yeah.
- So in a way, it's the cumulative score that they've got and that's what gets posted on all of the
- stuff. That's the rank order that the promotion list is. The cumulative score, yes, what determines
- the rank on the list. And that's public. Public within the department internally, we don't post
- it on the bulletin board outside. But all the candidates are aware of where they rank because
- the chief makes the notifications. You've passed this and you are second on the list or you're
- fourth on the list or, you know. I think I see where you're going. Yeah, so they're ranking on
- the list. That is no. Their actual scores or how they perform to get to that rank, that is what's
- sealed. So if they want to go in a review and see how they can perform better or see how they
- perform well, they can do that individually but not of other people. The reason I went down this
- path is
- it's never good when, it's great that we're at a really professional way we're doing things these
- days. But if we weren't or if there was any hint of favoritism or somebody gets skipped over,
- then that hurts morale. But when everybody knows where everybody stands and we're using
- a systematic approach, that keeps morale high and trust high in the department.
- Good. Okay. I will add that Chief Kerr has also made it mandatory for a lot of the promotion
- process to be finished as the individual needs to come in and look at their file along with like,
- I think it's what Chief Zeeks or Chief Drescher that they had to sit down and they can go through
- the evaluator's notes. How can I do better next time you did a great job on your interview,
- you needed work on this, or different things to consider too. Even if you're number one,
- we can always do better. There's always room for improvement.
- Yes, and now to make sure that's accurate. Yes.
- That is what we need. So if they don't review that, they're wrong. I learned that in the army.
- Sometimes personnel section makes mistakes.
- All right, that's good. Chris, just a side question. With all the ability of people to
- submit a records request, we can keep... Subject to confidentiality records request,
- we can keep that. Right.
- Yeah, because it's an HR thing. Everything filters through legal confidentialities,
- one of which is personnel records on various things, including all of this.
- Because I could see somebody that felt wrong filing an open records request,
- but this would be protected. Yeah, now in the lawsuit, probably not.
- That's a subpoena. It would be different court
- orders and whatnot, but just for basic public records requests, this stuff will fall under
- a category of confidentiality. Good.
- Non-disclosure. Great.
- Okay. In the next section then is G1. On performance evaluations,
- do we have a standard form for that? Yes.
- Great. It'd be good for us to see that. Okay.
- I think. I'd like to see it.
- Yeah, so that would help me understand how they get to us on a promotion list.
- And the good part about a standard form is, you know, it is standardized and it's good.
- You've run through the same thing. Yeah.
- That this performance evaluations are. Thank you.
- And we do these. At least once every six months.
- Every six months. Do you think that's too much?
- It's merit board requirements, I believe, statutory.
- State? Yes.
- That is a statutory standard. Oh, man.
- That's a lot. I mean, think about most positions.
- Once a year feels like too much.
- Once a year? I mean, think of the administrative burden this puts on.
- Agreed. And I think it lessens the potential positive impact it could have
- if you do them too often because then people aren't going to put forth the full effort
- into doing them. But at this point, you need to at least have it in there because it's a
- requirement.
- Okay. And then we have the rating guide. Needs improvement, meets standards, above standards.
- That's great. So then there's the employee name, the data evaluation, and then
- supervisor and reviewer or is it all the same? It should be either or.
- Okay. Is there, so their direct supervisor fills this out. Is there a, oh well there's
- supervisor comments. There's, and this is prescribed by the state or can we, do we have any ability?
- This is an internal document. So we could adjust it?
- That's just what we're going with now.
- And we've been using this for promotionary firefighters for
- eight years and for a new firefighter to get off probation, their assigned officer would fill it
- out and their battalion chief would also fill it out in reference to the firefighter before they
- would get off probation after their one year of hire. So the supervisor and battalion chief do
- separate ones. Yes, this is the same form but they see that firefighter differently so. Right.
- That was going to be my question because I saw the supervisor thing. I'm used to a performance
- evaluation. The supervisor fills out and then there's another section for a senior rater the
- next level up and usually that person looks at it from a more strategic point of view saying things
- like this employee, this firefighter is capable of in the career path to be able to do
- this and this should look to the next level or whatever or should remain in current position
- for the next couple of years or whatever. But that's done two different forms. It's the same
- form but they how the supervisor sees that firefighter is different. Does that make sense?
- Yep. I know what I'm trying to say just trying to. Okay.
- All right. I have a kind of an off the topic question and I think in state government this
- goes back to county. If a sheriff, an elected sheriff loses an election
- because they're they can only be sheriff for eight years consecutively.
- They have to be reinstated at the department I think at the level of a sergeant if I'm not
- mistaken and it used to be that way at least. So my off the little off the topic question is
- if a fire chief has to leave due to a change of administration do we take the fire chief back at
- some level? Yeah it is. Yes and it's in our rules and ranks. So if they're a sworn member that
- promoted up through the ranks the answer is yes. They have to be given a spot. If they're civilian
- chief then their role is complete. I see that's good. That's also in the statutes it expresses
- how that happens with regards to fire chief being removed from that position as fire chief. They go
- back to their their highest most recent rank. Highest most recent rank. Okay.
- If sworn. Of course. I understand the difference. You wouldn't have a rank if you were a civilian
- chief.
- You guys know the difference and all that. What happens that
- a mayor could appoint his long-lost uncle to be the fire chief with no qualifications.
- Yes. Currently we do and the last one was also civilian. The current one's a little
- bit unique in that he was sworn and then converted to civilian when he took the chief spot. So he
- technically retired as a sworn firefighter and then was appointed as a civilian chief. But
- technically
- he's a civilian chief as well. Chief Curtis. Chief Curtis. That was Chief Moore. Chief Moore was.
- Chief Curtis first said he was sworn. Okay. I bring that up because I think it's a fair thing
- for a fire chief who's sworn firefighter just because the political winds change
- shouldn't have to be on the street. Agreed. So I think that's a good thing. So you say that's
- someplace else in our rules and regs. We don't need to deal with that with this
- anywhere anyplace. It's built within the statute and I don't know that it's reflected in here.
- Should it be? We have to follow the statute whether we like it or not.
- It's not one of those things we'd have to vote on anyway. It's a pretty rare instance where the
- fire
- chief's going to get removed and I don't even believe the merit commission has a role in the
- fire chief being removed. Mayor would. Yeah. But in the statutes it talks about what happens if the
- fire chief is removed and he's a sworn officer. Good. Because mayors change. I'm saying this
- right down tight. Yeah. Say yes. Chief and deputy. Yeah. Deputies in the same position.
- Oh good. Yeah. Good. Takes care of you folks too, huh? Correct. Okay good.
- Yes he's my boss. All right. He just went on record to say that. I did. I did. He's my boss and he's
- going to do an amazing job. I will say it again. In section three, subsection B. Yes. Under
- suspension.
- Okay. Down there in the second or third sense. In addition, the unit territory or district.
- Well can't we just say. Yeah that's that's. Can we just say amended to. Say city or department.
- Department. Okay. Yeah you are right.
- You see where that is? Yeah.
- The statute. In addition, the unit territory or district. Yes. It'll just read the department.
- Yeah the statute always goes through that litany. I just didn't catch it that time. I didn't clean
- it out. I think I caught it hopefully everywhere else. Okay then in the next page then page 10
- section D talks about a hearing officer or designated. Let's see parties may agree to
- designate a hearing officer. So in this section does the hearing officer make a final decision?
- Goodness.
- Because I just wasn't it kind of insinuates that it does. There's a hearing conducted
- but it doesn't really say it doesn't really say makes a binding decision I don't think.
- I think that might be the investigator. The hearing officer might be the one who is actually
- gets to run it you know is yeah. So I'm trying to figure out you know I understand
- you'd want to have an investigation and then um then
- a hearing officer a hearing shall be conducted upon the request of the member.
- So well so it's gonna this is deciding who the trier of fact is going to be yeah okay sorry I
- had to read through it again and only if the parties agree will they be able to designate
- a hearing officer to conduct the hearing okay and so yes if the parties agree to have a hearing
- officer do this it takes it out of the hands of the commission and the hearing is conducted by
- that hearing officer who is qualified by education training and experience I don't know what that
- means but they'll have to decide if the person is qualified to do the job so then all of the
- procedure for the hearing is followed and the trier of fact is the hearing officer who makes
- the final decision okay okay if the party don't agree within the five day period to get that
- designated hearing officer then the commission can be the trier of fact okay so the commission
- can hold the hearing or they can they they can designate a person which in other words is another
- way to get a hearing officer appointed right so if the parties don't agree to a hearing officer
- the commission can create can designate a hearing officer or they can say let the board of public
- safety do it but the intent ultimately is for the commission i think to be the body that does this
- it doesn't come out and say that but that's why this mayor commission was created in the first
- place
- this this is weird i'll admit it but it gives a lot of flexibility to who's going to be that
- trier of fact it could be a a hearing officer it could be the commission but if the commission for
- some reason would prefer they can designate somebody else to do it or appoint or designate
- the board of public safety to do it because the board of public safety is still in business
- this gives us a lot this gives us a subpoena authority doesn't it more or less as we go on
- yeah yeah as you go down you see the trier of fact has subpoena power through the commission
- which is using subpoena power through the courts and then the person may appeal
- there's that you know and then if they don't like our decision they can appeal to the circuit court
- that's right that's the final that's the final sayer here that's kind of odd isn't it but
- yeah i hope that was interesting okay next then is in section m subsection one under summary
- disciplinary action i just need a clarification here because i'm trying to figure this out in
- my mind um in addition to the disciplinary powers of commission the chief may without
- without a hearing reprimand or suspend a member without pay for a maximum of five working days
- for purposes of subsection eight hours of paid time constitutes one working day
- so the way i figure that is that's a shift and a half essentially yeah 40 hours isn't aligned
- really with our schedule so likely if that were to be implemented it would probably be 36 hours
- for a shift and a half we that's really weird yeah i think you'd have to leave halfway through
- a second shift well half shifts are common for us people will take 12 hours off okay it's pretty
- routine so this would actually align well with our schedule should we make it 36 hours if if we
- were
- to suspend them for 40 hours that would be very weird for us because then then we're really like
- part way through a shift we're not halfway through it's it's really easy to fill half
- shifts we do ams and vms okay but yeah a 40 hour would be much more difficult to accommodate
- on the roster so you're right it would likely be a 36 hour yeah because when you first read that
- you
- think well five working days but then it defines a working day is eight hours but for for you guys
- a working day is 24 hours correct yeah yeah i assume the language from the statute was probably
- something standard and then they defined it a little more for us to mean working days in this
- case is truly 40 hours in which case we would probably exercise it in something that made a
- little more sense great well that's a good thing um i just was i wanted to make sure we had both
- eyes open on that because it could be confusing yeah it's the same language on the other side
- with border public safety so we on this side of the table are familiar with that right calculation
- and i think that's a good section because you know we all know that
- bad things can happen and a chief needs that kind of authority to
- to demonstrate to the public that we're taking something seriously
- yeah and in those instances all the chief has to do is give a written notice of the fact that it
- happened to the commission but a member who has been reprimanded does still have recourse they can
- they can ask for the a review it's not quite a hearing like a like we would do for discipline
- that comes to the merit commission but there's still an opportunity to review okay good and then
- in section n um who's our medical director yeah she's awesome great um she's with uh iu health
- so she is she a city employee then or no so she does it through iu health so we don't compensate
- her for that volunteer i believe the medical director is i guess that would all be compensated
- via iu health right but they actually have that arranged well before the ambulance service was a
- budgetary thing when the ambulance service was taking care of that but since lifeline and iu
- health have gone that we are now under iu health not the ambulance service for medical direction
- is actually the supervising hospital so it is iu health so this is likely how they're putting out
- as a community outreach or something along those lines but i do not have that i'd be curious to
- know how how we have that arranged it's important because i don't know and i think i'd like to have
- that answer because it seems like well i'm not going to say anything on the record i don't know
- how that is let's learn and discuss arranged and we can provide that information to you later
- well it gives this person some significant authority they've got well and rightfully so
- because you have emt's right who are doing work under their direction and if they think that the
- emt is screwing up they should have the authority to to do something about it so that's that's what
- this whole section is and again it's a regurgitation basically of the statutory language that
- exists
- and it also exists in our medical protocols as well
- it's it'd be interesting to know whether there is some sort of contractual arrangement between the
- city
- i'd like to know how that works so i and i don't have any answer for you at this point because
- um i could see where someone who was suspended could question the kind of legal standing that
- the medical director has with their ability to perform their job
- they have they have review they have appeal slash review rights the state has an ems commission
- which a lot of times the complaints go up through that as well so and they also have the disciplinary
- powers as well so they can revoke suspend yeah as they see fit yeah we can't we're knocking on this
- side of the house to do anything with regards to their emt certification but if they have issues
- off with their emt certification that put their job in jeopardy it's going to end up being an
- an issue on our side of the house as well right how how do we how does our department get um
- um figure out who the supervising hospital is does the state do that well no they sign
- off every two years we do a certification recertification process the bfd is a
- non-transport bls provider for the state so every every two years we send the protocols we have
- paperwork signed by the ambulance service as a transport the doctor pedo as the medical director
- and we sent like i said the copy of the protocols our roster at the time and we have to send that
- 30 to 60 days in advance of the expiration and we displayed that certificate it's in here so
- you could but again it's permissions protocols and whatnot have to be provided through there
- through if we were to do that so right now dr pedo takes care of all the fire departments
- within minrow county i'm not sure of minrow simply because they have their own ambulance
- but she has been taking care of bedford area green county minrow county
- so several counties in this area she's been the medical director for quite some time
- so then in subsection b there the medical director may terminate a member's emt certification
- so is that their state certification or is that their certification for
- being able to do it for us their state certification it's got nothing to do with working here
- wow and she would let's say theoretically she would send that she would send that up through
- their chain up through the ems medical commission as well so it would be a state censure type
- revocation of a person's certification would happen through the commission it's got nothing
- to do with us the member will no longer be permitted to operate and the department is
- a frontline firefighter because so are all of our firefighters ent certified all of a sudden
- part of their emergency medical responders they are grandfathered in because they've been here
- for quite some time so but every new firefighter since 2002 has become an ent
- is required before they are released from probation and by their one year
- since 2002 they have to take the class pardon me since 2002 they have to start taking the class
- yeah they can either come in with the emt or if they do not have that we send
- candidates through great okay
- um under four section four miscellaneous retirement age
- okay member shall retirement apartment when the member reaches
- the 70th birthday um how do we land on that date i that state i think that state and as part of her
- for something or um i forget there it's it's sprinkled about in different places for firefighters
- for firefighters it wasn't internally said number yeah not not us somebody else okay yeah
- and then
- subsection four member may be informed by the department of the members
- reinstatement so we're this is back if there was a riff so if we're going to reinstate people
- by written notice the notice shall specify the date and time in which the department requires
- the member to report for duty within 10 calendar days after a member receives notice of reinstatement
- the member must advise the department that the member accepts reinstatement and will
- will be able to commence employment on the date specified in the notice
- the rip all reinstatement rights granted to a member terminate upon the member's failure
- to accept reinstatement within this specified period my my question there is can we
- let's say we ripped somebody and they go get a job someplace else
- can we make sure that we give them 14 calendar days to in other words a two week notice to
- whomever they went to work for i believe that this is just a notice saying that they have 10
- days to respond i don't think anybody reasonably would expect them we can't give them less than
- 10 days we have to give them at least 10 days but it's so that they've got those 10 days to let us
- know that they're actually able to do so but it's just a what kurt's saying is can we put in here
- that we're going to give at least a 14 day window so that they can give a commensurate two week
- notice to to quit i can't see where we would demand an answer and a report for duty on day 10
- it's just rude but maybe we should specify yeah i don't think it'd be wrong to amend with that
- yeah so the notice itself has 10 days to respond but the date of reporting for duty cannot be less
- than 14 days from the issue so that's where i was yeah yeah i like that yeah because you know you
- guys are running this the right way but there could be a time that's why we change that i think
- that'd
- be great so that'd be an amendment as well so you have 14 days so we have four right now four
- amendments as i as i'm keeping track is that correct right okay
- okay
- and what i must advise the department that the member of secretary of state will be able to
- commence employment
- well you could just add to that chris on the date specified in the notice
- um which you know will be at least 14 calendar days or no less than yeah no less than 14 calendar
- days
- and that's all i saw in all this it's a good thing you saw that
- well you know you just read it from i guess a lot of this is you know i've had to deal with
- all kinds of issues in the army and uh that's why the army's books like that
- of all the things that can go wrong this is much easier
- how i'm going to change for before i'm going to add another sentence after the second sentence
- so that second sentence reads the notice shall specify the date and time in which the department
- requires the member to report for duty the date then this is the new sentence the date to report
- shall be no less than 14 days from the date of notice
- great
- how's that sound
- i think either jeff needs to withdraw his motion or we should vote on jeff's motion
- and if it fails entertain a new motion to adopt the report the the the rules as amended
- and i don't care how you would like to arrive at it if you feel adamant that you'd like to try and
- have the rules adopted without amendment we can carry on if you'd like to withdraw
- i'd be the cleanest way your motion then we could have a new motion put on the table as amended
- i'll draw my motion and i'll draw my second perfect all right and then we can
- have a new motion to approve these as amended yes so can i get a motion to approve the
- uh the fire mayor commission rules and procedures as amended
- on today's day can be a motion to accept that i'll i'll make that motion second i'll second
- all in favor say aye all right any opposed
- very good good work
- that is good work i think i need to read this more critically more critically
- then zoom then go on to new business if yeah i don't think there is any but
- new business staff reports anybody have any reports to give
- this is where we talk about our upcoming schedule what you want to do in june
- uh as it stands right now we have two known lateral candidates we are doing some due
- diligence and making sure that those who have claimed firefighter certifications are not
- working elsewhere that might also qualify as a lateral so but we are only hiring two
- so we're looking at interview how do you want to proceed in june do you want to interview and
- uh i guess bless them to go forward in the process in the june meeting approve them
- or would you like to interview one meeting and do the next we had a total of 29 candidates who
- passed the interview in the test i do not think correct me if i'm wrong i would not think you'd
- want to interview 29 candidates for a list all in one evening we've kind of been speculating
- getting
- you two for the spots that we have in september and then setting a date later for our ongoing
- hire list of 15 or so then the remainder of the candidates would be on standby not first interview
- would be in september they would be for the september hires so what i want to know is do you
- want to interview people in june or do you want to identify and just do the two and then set a date
- for 15 interviews at another date or would you rather do 17 in one evening it's basically the
- first to fill an immediate need for two vacancies so you would interview them approve them for hire
- they're good then the next day interviews next year it'd be for a conditional approval so basically
- you give them thumbs up as long as they complete there's a need there's a vacancy and they complete
- the remaining steps then you don't have to interview them again right and that list is
- what we would go is what the merit is it's good for two years so we could interview the two that
- you're thinking of in june and then do two other groups in july or august september yeah and that
- group would be a significant you know 15 or so that we would have for that because i do know that
- at least one of those on the list is already on another fire department's hiring list as well so
- by the time we're ready to hire in late winter early spring some of those candidates will likely
- have found employment elsewhere so i hope not i hope they would like to just stay with us but
- i want to be realistic so that's and we have five questions for you prepared embedded by hr so you
- just need to interview and your interviews pass fail so you know as it stands so just let us know
- how you would like to move in the event that we do find another lateral that meets that there's
- i would also put them forward and these two when you say there are somewhere else there is a 77
- plan their perf plan they're ready to go i am just once somebody has claimed firefighter certifications
- i just want to make sure that they are not in in a fire department that's also for a perf
- department
- that you know i mean i don't know where everyone's at right i know we're linton and speedway and uh
- bedford and columbus and all these other ones are i know that they're in the perf but i don't know
- where midland and alt it so i don't know where everyone is so i don't know if they're so we make
- them all do we need a motion to do that or we i don't know i think if you if we put it on the
- agenda the interviews for candidates or i just need to know that that's going to be an executive
- session that happens in june so there'll be an executive session that will occur
- i would presume about an hour before the regular meeting would take place okay
- if we need a regular meeting what that might be the only thing that you need to do but we'll figure
- a regular meeting to yeah we'll figure the process out because this is all so very new for us
- and advise you but at the very least there's an executive session and i expect that immediately
- following that will be a regular meeting that approves the candidate for uh for the lateral
- positions that'd be perfect yeah and this would be the next and that'll be in june 24th correct
- these are enacted these are enacted in three days once we does that matter as far as
- next meeting be 28 days yeah because you've taken off right right yeah
- yeah we can change the date question on the timing 30 days and 28 days to the meeting
- these need to be in effect for 30 days prior to utilizing them is there a 30 day
- and the meeting is 28 days from now what i thank you um it's something we just we talked about
- yeah rules have been adopted they need to get posted and 30 days from today they take effect
- which means we cannot start doing hiring until after the 27th of june so we could bump it back
- a week or or do we just put it to the board of public safety for june yeah whatever's easiest
- that still gets us time yeah in which case we wouldn't even need the june
- meeting i don't think and we can figure that out later and you said you're leaving you're
- leaving for vacation or you're out of town i'm retired yes i have a summer home in northern
- michigan it is but it's not convenient for this because i'm gone july august last week in june
- first week in september so two and a half months you can zoom i can zoom but nicole has to be here
- then and we need three physical yeah as long as the other three are physically present you can
- attend by zoom and be considered present for all voting and everything necessary what we can't do
- is have you zoom in and be counted towards a quorum because you need to have three because
- we only have four members right now we got we're supposed to have five three makes a quorum
- and we then you can only make a quorum by those who are physically present does that make sense
- yes yeah if tuesday is a good day of the week for everyone could we just move it to the next week
- and we would avoid your schedule conflict and we stare out yeah oh you're out oh okay i see sorry
- well it won't be an issue if nicole can attend
- we leave sometime that first week of july for a vacation for a baseball trip but but it may not
- be till it because the first is the first is the next tuesday correct yeah yeah so i don't think we
- leave i don't think we leave till the second so i can actually do the first i mean we don't have to
- do that right i was just good for the first as well throw something out easier sooner the better
- right sure yeah well we gotta wait 30 days yeah i mean after the 30 days the sooner we can do it
- the
- better yeah the first should be fine for me if she came out of 10 first do you want to
- consider using the board of public safety one more time for these two
- two i did say in the last meeting it could be potentially because depending on the rule so
- we have that option until these rules are in effect this board is unable to operate and so
- therefore i believe that the board of public safety still can maintain jurisdiction over these
- in the event that we would not be able to do it on the first yeah we'd have time before the agenda
- gets posted so we just need to find and then i'd back it up the last part of that week before
- because that we would have our rules would have been placed for 30 days by then by the 26th the
- 26 will be the date that they become effective so we could meet on the 26th or 27th
- of june of june or even june 30th
- if we're looking at a june date maybe utilities on the 30th
- we do don't we
- well we've got some options there yeah i guess we should ask nicole
- uh those all work about i'm not saying why i was in the 30th the 20 26 or 27th would work
- but i don't have to be here chief career than you'll be here so that doesn't necessarily matter
- do we know if we're any closer to that bit remember yet
- i don't sorry i don't mean to laugh but you know i don't whose appointment is that
- mayor are we closer to the fifth so i'm going to update the rules tomorrow morning get them to you
- so that you can um furnish copies to all department members
- yeah we'll put it on our learning management system and make your requirement all must read
- and acknowledge so yeah there's no question about the fact that they can furnish the morning the
- monkey right because otherwise they don't take effect until copies are furnished to all the
- members right and so we just i just want to make sure you get that done so i'm giving you as much
- time as possible to have that happen so you'll get the you'll get the adopted rules tomorrow
- and they take effect 30 days after today
- or would it be tomorrow no 30 days from today it took effect today when we adopted them okay
- i'm sorry they were adopted today at this meeting they take effect 30 days from today
- words all right i i as 30 days past all of them had to be
- no i'm going with your words
- starting today here not when we supply them to them correct okay
- i would just however yeah
- no so if we weren't able to get copies to everybody then they take effect
- if the 30 days have expired and we still didn't get copies to everybody
- they don't take effect until all members have received a copy that's how that works
- interesting
- we have 30 days to get them to everybody which i'm sure we can do
- all right
- we will find out whether nicole is available on one of those last days of june
- and go from there or july 1st we or july 1st and we will advise the board members
- accordingly as to what to expect with regards to those two lateral positions
- we know that on the 10th or so so that we could give advanced notice okay
- we'll have to notify nicole of our intentions and whether she thinks she's available for a
- executive session and special meeting in person in person on one of those available days at the end
- of the month i just want candidates two weeks notice i understand so we'll try to reach out to her
- tomorrow
- won't we heather
- back to you eric all right can i get a motion to adjourn
- well did we do public comment sorry public comments not that there's any public care
- there are any public comments no seeing none can i get a motion to adjourn i'll make that motion
- all right perfect meeting adjourned
- (orchestral music)