>> I'd like to call this the Mayor Commission regular meeting for May 27th, 2025 to order.
 [BLANK_AUDIO]
 Order of business here is the approval of the minutes that I think we're all sent.
 Can I get a motion to approve the minutes for March 25th and April 22nd, 2025?
 >> I'll make that motion.
 >> And I'll second.
 >> All right, I have a motion and a second.
 Is there any discussion about the minutes?
 >> No.
 >> Hearing none, all in favor say aye.
 >> Aye.
 >> Any opposed?
 >> That motion is successful.
 >> We're rolling right along.
 >> Old business, the adoption of the rules and procedures.
 Can I get a motion to adopt the city of Bloomington Fire and
 Mayor Commission rules and procedures?
 [BLANK_AUDIO]
 >> It's all moved.
 >> Second.
 >> All right, I have a motion and a second.
 >> Is there any discussion about the years and
 procedures?
 >> Go through as I read through in detail.
 >> Sure.
 >> Thank you for sending ahead of time.
 >> Well, there was enough there to read.
 I really was glad I was able to get it to you all with enough days to spend with it.
 >> Some of this stuff, it's probably just me being trying to figure out what I need to know.
 Here trying to figure out the lay of the land and you guys probably already know a lot of these
 answers, but let's see.
 Oh, in the first section under the qualifications section, I noticed that provision for those
 who are honorably discharged and served at least 20 years of military service would get
 could be 40 years and six months.
 I just wondered how we came up with that extra six months.
 >> So it used to be our cutoff was 36 years of age.
 >> Yeah.
 >> So how they come up with 40 years and six months, I guess I'm not sure, but there was
 a significant difference between our maximum hiring age and a military retirement.
 Now that our maximum age has been moved to 40, it makes that six months a lot more
 insignificant than what it used to be.
 But it's always been 40 and a half years.
 >> What I was thinking was if you kind of do the math here, you take a young man or
 woman who's graduated from high school, they would likely enlist at age 19.
 If they served a full 20 years, which would give them a full career in the military and
 then eligibility for their pension, they would be 39 years of age.
 And this adequately covers them, assuming that they'd have enough time.
 Let me try to work my way through this.
 So 39 years old, you'd have a year and a half.
 If you were retired right at 20 years.
 And so does that include the amount of time?
 Can you have to actually be sworn in at 40 and a half years or can that be when you apply?
 >> No, you have to be hired on by that deadline.
 The date of hire has to be before they're 40 and a half years old.
 >> Okay, and that date wasn't set internally, that's straight from the state statute.
 >> That's the statute that the state of Indiana passed.
 >> Okay, so we can't do anything about that.
 >> One of those few times where, you know, we've made age of.
 >> Yeah, well, it makes sense.
 >> It turns out at some point, you're just old enough that you shouldn't start a career
 in the fire department.
 >> Oh, sure, I get that.
 I'm just trying to think logistically.
 >> Whether they've got time to get done with everything in the military.
 >> Whether they do.
 And since it's state mandated, there's nothing we can do about that.
 But the trick for us then is making sure that if we're recruiting somebody or if someone's come
 to us at 18 years of service in the military and saying, you know,
 I'd like to really consider the fire service.
 We need to be on them and say, okay, that's all good.
 We think you'd be a good candidate or whatever.
 But we're going to have to be straight with them and say, you got to get this in.
 You got to get in the process now because it's going to take from the time you leave,
 you've only got a year and a half if you wait until full retirement.
 Because a lot of times these guys, if they retire at 20 years,
 their actual retirement date is going to be, you know, two or three months later because of
 built up leave time and things like that.
 So I don't know how we recruit from the military.
 If we have any kind of things like that that we look at, it'd be a good thing if we did.
 To look for good candidates, I think.
 But we just need to make sure that they know we've got these time limits.
 It is in the application that if you are, you will be this and it is understood.
 It's like question one, you will be, it must be between these ages at the time of hire.
 And so that is we track the birth dates very closely.
 Want to make sure they are of age.
 Now we have the 21 that we must do.
 They must be 21 by the age of hire.
 Even though perf allows the 18 year olds, merit board does not.
 So we have to check birthday.
 So they must be 21 by the date of hire, not to be on the list, but date of hire.
 And then they must, they can be on the list until they get 40 and a half.
 And then, yeah, I'm sorry, but yes.
 But we do have several veterans on our list as it stands right now.
 Not with 20 years, but they are serving right now,
 but getting done with their contracts and whatever.
 But a lot of them have their job site has been governmentjobs.com.
 So we've had, and we get a lot of questions.
 We did have one candidate withdrawal because he was on deployment
 for the entire month of April out of country.
 So we get the decline this time.
 So because we cannot accommodate a line exam for that.
 Essentially, they'd likely need to be a top candidate to make the timeline.
 So if they apply within that year and a half and they do well
 and they're in the X top, whatever candidates,
 they will probably make the timeline and they'll get hired.
 If they were in the bottom of the candidate list,
 odds are against them getting called in time.
 Sure, absolutely, that makes sense.
 And the good part is, you know, let's say you're a Navy medic or an Army medic,
 you probably know that that military occupational specialty transfers,
 you're an EMT by state law, you can get certified pretty easy transferring that over.
 And that gives us, you know, that gives a candidate a one-up.
 And experience.
 Absolutely, great.
 Okay, there was that one.
 And let's go to section D.
 On the aptitude test, I noticed it said 70% or greater
 and 35% of the overall hiring process score.
 You know, that's a great criteria.
 My question is, the written exam, do we, it's from a third-party vendor,
 but there could be differences if it's a third-party,
 is the test different from different vendors?
 Yes.
 Okay, so I guess the thing to be mindful there would be,
 if the test is different, should the standards be different?
 Or is this one of those statements too?
 Generally, I'll say that 70% is passing as far as all state certifications exams
 and they set the passing score at 70% and so that's a general practice, is 70%.
 So we have gone with the firefighter aptitude test.
 Essentially, they have, the criteria they've set for passing
 comes with an element of liability protection because they've vetted it
 and gone through their own HR-related nature to set up the questions.
 We can deviate from it, but then we lose that liability protection that comes with it.
 So they've done their due diligence.
 That's why we picked a specific third party to do it, is they've done their due diligence.
 That becomes the thing I think should be some clarification,
 is the candidates who would like to be considered for hire with this department
 have only one third party vendor to go to because we are contracted with them, correct?
 So they're all using the same third party vendor.
 It's not like they can go out and choose one.
 Yeah, they choose our test.
 There is an optional study guide for which we do not provide,
 but the link and the information is provided to those who ask
 or reach out to someone, hey, is there one, which we encourage people to reach out to HR,
 to the hiring managers and whatnot, you know, for that.
 So then we have, if you pick a vendor, you can,
 you can kind of pick a vendor somewhat related to the rigor of the test.
 Yes.
 Yeah, okay, great.
 This one does corrections, it does police, it does a variety of
 public safety, promotional and general placement, aptitude, hiring exams.
 And then my next question there is in section E, under the agility test,
 the CPAT has a pass/fail, and that's, let's see, is that administered by the third party as well?
 Yes.
 So then the same kind of thing is true there.
 Is there uniform standards for physical fitness or does it differ by vendors?
 It is a national recognized exam, the candidate physical aptitude test,
 and they have to be vetted by the entity, whether, you know, it's the IEFF, the union,
 they have to be vetted and they have to, it takes, it's a few years processed to
 get the certification that that allows them to be in a certified official state site for that.
 So Indiana has several, but they are all throughout the U.S., so it is a very common.
 So is it kind of, is there a state list that we pick from or do we pick any vendor?
 They can just, they just need the card. They could, we have had people from Florida, Illinois,
 from the Illinois State Fire Academy, Colorado, Texas. It's a nationally recognized standard.
 Yes, the testing should be the same. The site location may just be different.
 Yeah. So does that make sense? I'm sorry I did not.
 Standards are all the same nationally. Yes.
 That's great because in, well, I've just seen other departments years ago that
 made up their own. And sometimes that doesn't work so well.
 Right. Okay. In section G,
 yeah. Let's see, my note says any department or just Bloomington.
 It's any department by statute. Any department?
 Yeah, whether you are a firefighter, whether your mother or father was a firefighter or police
 officer. That was exactly my question. Was that limited to Bloomington or was it,
 should we amend that a bit to say any department? Because it's firefighter or police officer,
 I guess that means any department, but that would be my question, whether it's just Bloomington or
 whether it's just Monroe County or. So you think a clarification would, yeah, of any, I mean,
 applicants whose mother or father was a firefighter or police officer
 of any department in the United States? I mean, how do we? Yeah, I mean. What does the state say?
 I say as defined in IC510102, what does that state there? Because it could. I don't know. I have to
 look at the statute. No, that's in the line of duty as defined. Oh, yeah. The line of duty,
 not necessarily. Yeah, that 510102 is talking about line of duty, not firefighter or police officer.
 There's a definition for whether you died in the line of duty.
 Yeah, so I guess we could leave it that way, just the way it is, but
 applicants whose mother or father were firefighter or police officer
 of any department who died in the line, maybe that kind of thing.
 Does everybody think about that? I'm just rattling this stuff off, guys. Chime in if you think I'm
 out to lunch somewhere. I just, when I read, because I just read this completely
 as a lay person, having never read it before, and then I started thinking,
 I don't know what that means, you know, whether I could be from the Wadooga Police Department or
 whether
 I have to be from the Los Angeles Fire Department, you know, or the Bloomington Fire Department,
 for that matter. Okay, well if that's the intent of any department, sounds good to me. Well,
 should I add that language? Because the motion will then be
 um, as amended? As amended, right?
 And that would allow us to still adopt it? Yeah, we'll adopt it tonight and I'll just make those
 changes. We will have, we will have adopted this set as amended tonight, right? So, so anything,
 any amendments, so we have to, I'm going to add it of any department to G, so your motion is going
 to
 be to adopt these rules as amended. Okay, the reason I waited to bring all this up, I just,
 I felt by Robert's rules, we needed to get it on the floor first before we started talking about it.
 Right, that's how I'm doing it. Good. It's on the floor right now. Great. And so we're discussing
 and
 now, so technically the motion will have to be restated and, right? So can I get a motion to
 adopt these rules as amended? So moved, seconded. Any more discussion? Hearing none, right? That'll
 be the... Do we want to wait to see if there are any other? We'll go through all the amendments
 first,
 okay, if there are any others. Let's see.
 I was looking at H and I really, I think that H is good because it gives us maximum flexibility.
 There's no, we're not specifying what kind of things we're looking for in a social media account.
 We're not specifying the depth of criminal history. We can't begin to start. So we've got plenty of
 flexibility. Yeah. Good. Okay then. And social media changes so much. Absolutely. To try and
 explain it and express it in any kind of terms. Yeah. Social media accounts captures, you know,
 pretty much anything that we might generically consider as social media. Yeah, and that's a
 great thing because that can change over time. You know, what could be a standard that we would
 accept today? We might not in a year. Yeah. And, but of course we have to be careful of that too.
 So it's good. And then my next thing was in section two, subsection A3.
 Score received by the member on the assessment center. I, yeah. What, yeah, what is the assessment
 center? I don't know what the assessment center is. So that would vary depending on the promotion
 they saw after, but it's essentially a course that evaluates your skill set
 as it correlates to that position. So a driver, the assessment center would have to do with pump
 operations, maps, driving. An officer would be command situations, personnel issues, admin things.
 So it's basically running them through scenarios and seeing how they perform competitively with
 the point system and evaluators. So really the assessment center is specific to the position.
 Correct. Okay.
 Okay, that helps me understand. That's good. Okay, then
 maybe I missed it, but I don't know if I got exhibit A.
 Was it attached someplace? It mentions exhibit A and section B there. Oh,
 we did not provide you with exhibit A, the promotional guide.
 No, that's fine. I just thought, gee, did you delete that email or?
 You didn't miss anything. Okay, good. I think I did.
 So it's the promo guide. Okay. That's meant to be a live document.
 I think the fear was if we were to permanently attach it to this, then as it modifies to,
 you know, be custom for the department as best fit,
 we would like you to have access to the live document so you can see the current version of
 it and not a previous one. So we talk about that promotional guide and that guide is modified
 time to time and then we attach to the most current version. Okay. So the assessment,
 the promotional guide, is that a tool that helps department members understand how to get promoted?
 Exactly. It shows what's required to retrack each appointment, time and service, what the...
 State certifications are that are required. Great. Okay. Next is in E there, Chris.
 Yeah. That looks like the sentence didn't get completed after "however" in my version.
 However, only those member. Yeah.
 Typo. Boy, I wish you'd have pointed that out to me. I'm sorry. As I looked through all this,
 I thought, oh god, I don't want to put all this in an email.
 I thought maybe there may have been a colon there, but then I thought, oh no,
 there's probably a little more to that. All right. Hold on a second. Let me see
 if a previous version had the whole thing there. Could have.
 Let's see what the first version said. Section 2
 E. Right? Which section I'm sorry? Yeah, 2 E. Uh-huh. 2 E. Yeah, the first paragraph.
 Written competitive examination. For a written competitive examination may be held to fill the
 current more expected vacancy in the ranks, the member eligible to take the examination.
 No, it's right before that, Chris. That's subsection 1, so it's right here.
 Yeah, that preamble is not in the first version, so I added it. Any member who qualifies
 in length of service and rank may take a written competitive examination administered by the
 department. However, only those member. Max? G-Flip was looking right now. Yeah, I'm trying
 to look and see in our notes. What were we trying to get to there?
 Are you jogging your memory at all? No, I'm gonna have to.
 Where are we looking on E? We are in the very, that preamble. There's a little preamble right
 after competitive examination and before the number one. So it's E just before one,
 E where it says written competitive exam, and then... Because the very first one you sent out
 didn't have anything, and you're saying that's what you added. Yeah, we added something. I was
 looking for an older version of my habit, but that one didn't have anything.
 Yeah, there's gotta be a reason there, because there was a however you wanted to put it. Yeah,
 and I must have gotten a phone call or moved away from it, came back after lunch or something.
 Utilities called you. Right, yeah. So I never got back to finishing the thought.
 I don't have a comment attached to that portion of it. The next comment is a little bit further
 down.
 Sorry about that. That's okay. I'm glad you caught it. I'm not sure what we were trying to say
 there.
 Well, we can always... Something that you brought up, Max. I remember you had a concern with,
 you had a concern about
 the ability to take the examination. There was some limiting factor you wanted to talk about,
 but I can't for the life of me remember what it was now.
 It doesn't trigger anything. Maybe it has something to do with people who have taken it before
 or somebody that is actually qualified to take it or has time in grade or something like that.
 I'm just guessing.
 Maybe was it however only those members that possess
 the required promotional items may take... Yeah, I think that was it.
 However, only those members that possess the required promotional...
 Meet the requirements made to take the written exam.
 Yeah, so it's not just time and rank and service. You also have to have the
 promotional guide elements to be able to take the written test. I believe that was it.
 Or the ability to get.
 Well, so that would allow some flexibility because right now it states that
 all you have to have is the proper length of service and rank, but clearly you would need
 to have the promotional requirements beyond that to be able to take it.
 So we could state it as currently possess or have the ability to possess if you wanted to
 allow some flexibility. And the concept there is if the department has a significant need for a
 position and we're somewhat in this boat now, but we're handling it OK. Say, for example,
 you have many very new people and they're willing and able to get the certifications to get
 the promotions. They just haven't had ample time yet, but we have a need today to fill them.
 Sometimes you can have some leeway where as long as they look like they're ready for the spot,
 they can get the certification that's missing within a year or something like that.
 So the language here could potentially allow for something like that, depending on how we worded it.
 That makes sense. I mean, open to opinions as well.
 Has thoughts on it.
 So I just need some good language to put in there that encapsulates what you're trying to say there.
 However, only those members that possess
 the required, what was it, required promotion requirements or have the ability to within a,
 however, only those members that possess the promotion requirements or have the ability to
 obtain them within the predetermined period may take the written examination.
 And then it becomes a question of how much time you're going to give them.
 Well, could that be less?
 I don't know. Would that be appropriate to leave flexible? Because we wouldn't,
 we wouldn't offer it if there wasn't a need to. But if there.
 I don't like the idea of just kind of leaving it up to chance.
 How about not to exceed when you have possessed the current promotional requirements or have the
 ability to obtain them in a period within one year. However, only those members that possess
 the promotional requirements within one year of their promotion.
 No, because that's just to take the exam within one year of taking the exam.
 Also, we don't want to leave us so open-ended that then we have to take
 candidates that don't possess the certification yet. Why don't we just leave it as they have to
 have
 it. And if it creates an issue, we can re-approach this at a future meeting and then going forward.
 On the fly at the moment. Yeah. So only those members that possess the promotional requirements
 may take the exam. Is that the proper terminology? Yes. All right. So, however,
 only those members is where it ends, right? And it just says member. However, so I'll amend member.
 However, only those members that possess the promotional requirements may take the examination.
 So that'll be the second. That's E.
 2G and 2E.
 No, 1G and 2E. Sorry. Yeah. And next there in subsection, let's see, E, section 3. E3? Yeah, E3.
 I wondered, the department will notify each member in writing the score that the member received.
 Score received by a member of the written exam becomes part of the permanent file of the member
 and the member is entitled to access his file for examination. Do we, is there any benefit
 one way or the other? Are the, I guess my question is, are the grade results posted
 for everybody to see? No, everyone does not get access to everyone else's grade. It is
 only the individual. As it stands right now, they're taking an online exam and the person
 can hit submit, get their score, and it shows up on the, what do you, Proctor's website. So they,
 limited people have access to that. And they send it to you? They make it a sheet that they
 can put into their record. So it's a, it'd be a big score sheet, right? So it'll be,
 your test score is this, your assessment center score is this. That ultimate master grade sheet
 is what goes in their permanent file. That gets sent to you by the vendor? No, the internal,
 promotional stuff, this is what we do internally. The only one that we have a third party vendor
 for
 is the CPAC can be anywhere, but is the initial hiring test. Everything else has been done
 internally.
 So then do we have like a roster of who's up next on the promotion list? Yes. Okay. That's what we
 like to create. That's good. Yes, so if it's a competitive position, there'll be those that
 fill the immediate need followed by the ranking of those that didn't. And as long as they pass,
 then they're eligible to promote within X amount of time from that list as the need arises.
 They're not ranked in any order? They are ranked based on their performance, yeah.
 So in a way, it's the cumulative score that they've got and that's what gets posted on all of the
 stuff. That's the rank order that the promotion list is. The cumulative score, yes, what determines
 the rank on the list. And that's public. Public within the department internally, we don't post
 it on the bulletin board outside. But all the candidates are aware of where they rank because
 the chief makes the notifications. You've passed this and you are second on the list or you're
 fourth on the list or, you know. I think I see where you're going. Yeah, so they're ranking on
 the list. That is no. Their actual scores or how they perform to get to that rank, that is what's
 sealed. So if they want to go in a review and see how they can perform better or see how they
 perform well, they can do that individually but not of other people. The reason I went down this
 path is
 it's never good when, it's great that we're at a really professional way we're doing things these
 days. But if we weren't or if there was any hint of favoritism or somebody gets skipped over,
 then that hurts morale. But when everybody knows where everybody stands and we're using
 a systematic approach, that keeps morale high and trust high in the department.
 Good. Okay. I will add that Chief Kerr has also made it mandatory for a lot of the promotion
 process to be finished as the individual needs to come in and look at their file along with like,
 I think it's what Chief Zeeks or Chief Drescher that they had to sit down and they can go through
 the evaluator's notes. How can I do better next time you did a great job on your interview,
 you needed work on this, or different things to consider too. Even if you're number one,
 we can always do better. There's always room for improvement.
 Yes, and now to make sure that's accurate. Yes.
 That is what we need. So if they don't review that, they're wrong. I learned that in the army.
 Sometimes personnel section makes mistakes.
 All right, that's good. Chris, just a side question. With all the ability of people to
 submit a records request, we can keep... Subject to confidentiality records request,
 we can keep that. Right.
 Yeah, because it's an HR thing. Everything filters through legal confidentialities,
 one of which is personnel records on various things, including all of this.
 Because I could see somebody that felt wrong filing an open records request,
 but this would be protected. Yeah, now in the lawsuit, probably not.
 That's a subpoena. It would be different court
 orders and whatnot, but just for basic public records requests, this stuff will fall under
 a category of confidentiality. Good.
 Non-disclosure. Great.
 Okay. In the next section then is G1. On performance evaluations,
 do we have a standard form for that? Yes.
 Great. It'd be good for us to see that. Okay.
 I think. I'd like to see it.
 Yeah, so that would help me understand how they get to us on a promotion list.
 And the good part about a standard form is, you know, it is standardized and it's good.
 You've run through the same thing. Yeah.
 That this performance evaluations are. Thank you.
 And we do these. At least once every six months.
 Every six months. Do you think that's too much?
 It's merit board requirements, I believe, statutory.
 State? Yes.
 That is a statutory standard. Oh, man.
 That's a lot. I mean, think about most positions.
 Once a year feels like too much.
 Once a year? I mean, think of the administrative burden this puts on.
 Agreed. And I think it lessens the potential positive impact it could have
 if you do them too often because then people aren't going to put forth the full effort
 into doing them. But at this point, you need to at least have it in there because it's a
 requirement.
 Okay. And then we have the rating guide. Needs improvement, meets standards, above standards.
 That's great. So then there's the employee name, the data evaluation, and then
 supervisor and reviewer or is it all the same? It should be either or.
 Okay. Is there, so their direct supervisor fills this out. Is there a, oh well there's
 supervisor comments. There's, and this is prescribed by the state or can we, do we have any ability?
 This is an internal document. So we could adjust it?
 That's just what we're going with now.
 And we've been using this for promotionary firefighters for
 eight years and for a new firefighter to get off probation, their assigned officer would fill it
 out and their battalion chief would also fill it out in reference to the firefighter before they
 would get off probation after their one year of hire. So the supervisor and battalion chief do
 separate ones. Yes, this is the same form but they see that firefighter differently so. Right.
 That was going to be my question because I saw the supervisor thing. I'm used to a performance
 evaluation. The supervisor fills out and then there's another section for a senior rater the
 next level up and usually that person looks at it from a more strategic point of view saying things
 like this employee, this firefighter is capable of in the career path to be able to do
 this and this should look to the next level or whatever or should remain in current position
 for the next couple of years or whatever. But that's done two different forms. It's the same
 form but they how the supervisor sees that firefighter is different. Does that make sense?
 Yep. I know what I'm trying to say just trying to. Okay.
 All right. I have a kind of an off the topic question and I think in state government this
 goes back to county. If a sheriff, an elected sheriff loses an election
 because they're they can only be sheriff for eight years consecutively.
 They have to be reinstated at the department I think at the level of a sergeant if I'm not
 mistaken and it used to be that way at least. So my off the little off the topic question is
 if a fire chief has to leave due to a change of administration do we take the fire chief back at
 some level? Yeah it is. Yes and it's in our rules and ranks. So if they're a sworn member that
 promoted up through the ranks the answer is yes. They have to be given a spot. If they're civilian
 chief then their role is complete. I see that's good. That's also in the statutes it expresses
 how that happens with regards to fire chief being removed from that position as fire chief. They go
 back to their their highest most recent rank. Highest most recent rank. Okay.
 If sworn. Of course. I understand the difference. You wouldn't have a rank if you were a civilian
 chief.
 You guys know the difference and all that. What happens that
 a mayor could appoint his long-lost uncle to be the fire chief with no qualifications.
 Yes. Currently we do and the last one was also civilian. The current one's a little
 bit unique in that he was sworn and then converted to civilian when he took the chief spot. So he
 technically retired as a sworn firefighter and then was appointed as a civilian chief. But
 technically
 he's a civilian chief as well. Chief Curtis. Chief Curtis. That was Chief Moore. Chief Moore was.
 Chief Curtis first said he was sworn. Okay. I bring that up because I think it's a fair thing
 for a fire chief who's sworn firefighter just because the political winds change
 shouldn't have to be on the street. Agreed. So I think that's a good thing. So you say that's
 someplace else in our rules and regs. We don't need to deal with that with this
 anywhere anyplace. It's built within the statute and I don't know that it's reflected in here.
 Should it be? We have to follow the statute whether we like it or not.
 It's not one of those things we'd have to vote on anyway. It's a pretty rare instance where the
 fire
 chief's going to get removed and I don't even believe the merit commission has a role in the
 fire chief being removed. Mayor would. Yeah. But in the statutes it talks about what happens if the
 fire chief is removed and he's a sworn officer. Good. Because mayors change. I'm saying this
 right down tight. Yeah. Say yes. Chief and deputy. Yeah. Deputies in the same position.
 Oh good. Yeah. Good. Takes care of you folks too, huh? Correct. Okay good.
 Yes he's my boss. All right. He just went on record to say that. I did. I did. He's my boss and he's
 going to do an amazing job. I will say it again. In section three, subsection B. Yes. Under
 suspension.
 Okay. Down there in the second or third sense. In addition, the unit territory or district.
 Well can't we just say. Yeah that's that's. Can we just say amended to. Say city or department.
 Department. Okay. Yeah you are right.
 You see where that is? Yeah.
 The statute. In addition, the unit territory or district. Yes. It'll just read the department.
 Yeah the statute always goes through that litany. I just didn't catch it that time. I didn't clean
 it out. I think I caught it hopefully everywhere else. Okay then in the next page then page 10
 section D talks about a hearing officer or designated. Let's see parties may agree to
 designate a hearing officer. So in this section does the hearing officer make a final decision?
 Goodness.
 Because I just wasn't it kind of insinuates that it does. There's a hearing conducted
 but it doesn't really say it doesn't really say makes a binding decision I don't think.
 I think that might be the investigator. The hearing officer might be the one who is actually
 gets to run it you know is yeah. So I'm trying to figure out you know I understand
 you'd want to have an investigation and then um then
 a hearing officer a hearing shall be conducted upon the request of the member.
 So well so it's gonna this is deciding who the trier of fact is going to be yeah okay sorry I
 had to read through it again and only if the parties agree will they be able to designate
 a hearing officer to conduct the hearing okay and so yes if the parties agree to have a hearing
 officer do this it takes it out of the hands of the commission and the hearing is conducted by
 that hearing officer who is qualified by education training and experience I don't know what that
 means but they'll have to decide if the person is qualified to do the job so then all of the
 procedure for the hearing is followed and the trier of fact is the hearing officer who makes
 the final decision okay okay if the party don't agree within the five day period to get that
 designated hearing officer then the commission can be the trier of fact okay so the commission
 can hold the hearing or they can they they can designate a person which in other words is another
 way to get a hearing officer appointed right so if the parties don't agree to a hearing officer
 the commission can create can designate a hearing officer or they can say let the board of public
 safety do it but the intent ultimately is for the commission i think to be the body that does this
 it doesn't come out and say that but that's why this mayor commission was created in the first
 place
 this this is weird i'll admit it but it gives a lot of flexibility to who's going to be that
 trier of fact it could be a a hearing officer it could be the commission but if the commission for
 some reason would prefer they can designate somebody else to do it or appoint or designate
 the board of public safety to do it because the board of public safety is still in business
 this gives us a lot this gives us a subpoena authority doesn't it more or less as we go on
 yeah yeah as you go down you see the trier of fact has subpoena power through the commission
 which is using subpoena power through the courts and then the person may appeal
 there's that you know and then if they don't like our decision they can appeal to the circuit court
 that's right that's the final that's the final sayer here that's kind of odd isn't it but
 yeah i hope that was interesting okay next then is in section m subsection one under summary
 disciplinary action i just need a clarification here because i'm trying to figure this out in
 my mind um in addition to the disciplinary powers of commission the chief may without
 without a hearing reprimand or suspend a member without pay for a maximum of five working days
 for purposes of subsection eight hours of paid time constitutes one working day
 so the way i figure that is that's a shift and a half essentially yeah 40 hours isn't aligned
 really with our schedule so likely if that were to be implemented it would probably be 36 hours
 for a shift and a half we that's really weird yeah i think you'd have to leave halfway through
 a second shift well half shifts are common for us people will take 12 hours off okay it's pretty
 routine so this would actually align well with our schedule should we make it 36 hours if if we
 were
 to suspend them for 40 hours that would be very weird for us because then then we're really like
 part way through a shift we're not halfway through it's it's really easy to fill half
 shifts we do ams and vms okay but yeah a 40 hour would be much more difficult to accommodate
 on the roster so you're right it would likely be a 36 hour yeah because when you first read that
 you
 think well five working days but then it defines a working day is eight hours but for for you guys
 a working day is 24 hours correct yeah yeah i assume the language from the statute was probably
 something standard and then they defined it a little more for us to mean working days in this
 case is truly 40 hours in which case we would probably exercise it in something that made a
 little more sense great well that's a good thing um i just was i wanted to make sure we had both
 eyes open on that because it could be confusing yeah it's the same language on the other side
 with border public safety so we on this side of the table are familiar with that right calculation
 and i think that's a good section because you know we all know that
 bad things can happen and a chief needs that kind of authority to
 to demonstrate to the public that we're taking something seriously
 yeah and in those instances all the chief has to do is give a written notice of the fact that it
 happened to the commission but a member who has been reprimanded does still have recourse they can
 they can ask for the a review it's not quite a hearing like a like we would do for discipline
 that comes to the merit commission but there's still an opportunity to review okay good and then
 in section n um who's our medical director yeah she's awesome great um she's with uh iu health
 so she is she a city employee then or no so she does it through iu health so we don't compensate
 her for that volunteer i believe the medical director is i guess that would all be compensated
 via iu health right but they actually have that arranged well before the ambulance service was a
 budgetary thing when the ambulance service was taking care of that but since lifeline and iu
 health have gone that we are now under iu health not the ambulance service for medical direction
 is actually the supervising hospital so it is iu health so this is likely how they're putting out
 as a community outreach or something along those lines but i do not have that i'd be curious to
 know how how we have that arranged it's important because i don't know and i think i'd like to have
 that answer because it seems like well i'm not going to say anything on the record i don't know
 how that is let's learn and discuss arranged and we can provide that information to you later
 well it gives this person some significant authority they've got well and rightfully so
 because you have emt's right who are doing work under their direction and if they think that the
 emt is screwing up they should have the authority to to do something about it so that's that's what
 this whole section is and again it's a regurgitation basically of the statutory language that
 exists
 and it also exists in our medical protocols as well
 it's it'd be interesting to know whether there is some sort of contractual arrangement between the
 city
 i'd like to know how that works so i and i don't have any answer for you at this point because
 um i could see where someone who was suspended could question the kind of legal standing that
 the medical director has with their ability to perform their job
 they have they have review they have appeal slash review rights the state has an ems commission
 which a lot of times the complaints go up through that as well so and they also have the disciplinary
 powers as well so they can revoke suspend yeah as they see fit yeah we can't we're knocking on this
 side of the house to do anything with regards to their emt certification but if they have issues
 off with their emt certification that put their job in jeopardy it's going to end up being an
 an issue on our side of the house as well right how how do we how does our department get um
 um figure out who the supervising hospital is does the state do that well no they sign
 off every two years we do a certification recertification process the bfd is a
 non-transport bls provider for the state so every every two years we send the protocols we have
 paperwork signed by the ambulance service as a transport the doctor pedo as the medical director
 and we sent like i said the copy of the protocols our roster at the time and we have to send that
 30 to 60 days in advance of the expiration and we displayed that certificate it's in here so
 you could but again it's permissions protocols and whatnot have to be provided through there
 through if we were to do that so right now dr pedo takes care of all the fire departments
 within minrow county i'm not sure of minrow simply because they have their own ambulance
 but she has been taking care of bedford area green county minrow county
 so several counties in this area she's been the medical director for quite some time
 so then in subsection b there the medical director may terminate a member's emt certification
 so is that their state certification or is that their certification for
 being able to do it for us their state certification it's got nothing to do with working here
 wow and she would let's say theoretically she would send that she would send that up through
 their chain up through the ems medical commission as well so it would be a state censure type
 revocation of a person's certification would happen through the commission it's got nothing
 to do with us the member will no longer be permitted to operate and the department is
 a frontline firefighter because so are all of our firefighters ent certified all of a sudden
 part of their emergency medical responders they are grandfathered in because they've been here
 for quite some time so but every new firefighter since 2002 has become an ent
 is required before they are released from probation and by their one year
 since 2002 they have to take the class pardon me since 2002 they have to start taking the class
 yeah they can either come in with the emt or if they do not have that we send
 candidates through great okay
 um under four section four miscellaneous retirement age
 okay member shall retirement apartment when the member reaches
 the 70th birthday um how do we land on that date i that state i think that state and as part of her
 for something or um i forget there it's it's sprinkled about in different places for firefighters
 for firefighters it wasn't internally said number yeah not not us somebody else okay yeah
 and then
 subsection four member may be informed by the department of the members
 reinstatement so we're this is back if there was a riff so if we're going to reinstate people
 by written notice the notice shall specify the date and time in which the department requires
 the member to report for duty within 10 calendar days after a member receives notice of reinstatement
 the member must advise the department that the member accepts reinstatement and will
 will be able to commence employment on the date specified in the notice
 the rip all reinstatement rights granted to a member terminate upon the member's failure
 to accept reinstatement within this specified period my my question there is can we
 let's say we ripped somebody and they go get a job someplace else
 can we make sure that we give them 14 calendar days to in other words a two week notice to
 whomever they went to work for i believe that this is just a notice saying that they have 10
 days to respond i don't think anybody reasonably would expect them we can't give them less than
 10 days we have to give them at least 10 days but it's so that they've got those 10 days to let us
 know that they're actually able to do so but it's just a what kurt's saying is can we put in here
 that we're going to give at least a 14 day window so that they can give a commensurate two week
 notice to to quit i can't see where we would demand an answer and a report for duty on day 10
 it's just rude but maybe we should specify yeah i don't think it'd be wrong to amend with that
 yeah so the notice itself has 10 days to respond but the date of reporting for duty cannot be less
 than 14 days from the issue so that's where i was yeah yeah i like that yeah because you know you
 guys are running this the right way but there could be a time that's why we change that i think
 that'd
 be great so that'd be an amendment as well so you have 14 days so we have four right now four
 amendments as i as i'm keeping track is that correct right okay
 okay
 and what i must advise the department that the member of secretary of state will be able to
 commence employment
 well you could just add to that chris on the date specified in the notice
 um which you know will be at least 14 calendar days or no less than yeah no less than 14 calendar
 days
 and that's all i saw in all this it's a good thing you saw that
 well you know you just read it from i guess a lot of this is you know i've had to deal with
 all kinds of issues in the army and uh that's why the army's books like that
 of all the things that can go wrong this is much easier
 how i'm going to change for before i'm going to add another sentence after the second sentence
 so that second sentence reads the notice shall specify the date and time in which the department
 requires the member to report for duty the date then this is the new sentence the date to report
 shall be no less than 14 days from the date of notice
 great
 how's that sound
 i think either jeff needs to withdraw his motion or we should vote on jeff's motion
 and if it fails entertain a new motion to adopt the report the the the rules as amended
 and i don't care how you would like to arrive at it if you feel adamant that you'd like to try and
 have the rules adopted without amendment we can carry on if you'd like to withdraw
 i'd be the cleanest way your motion then we could have a new motion put on the table as amended
 i'll draw my motion and i'll draw my second perfect all right and then we can
 have a new motion to approve these as amended yes so can i get a motion to approve the
 uh the fire mayor commission rules and procedures as amended
 on today's day can be a motion to accept that i'll i'll make that motion second i'll second
 all in favor say aye all right any opposed
 very good good work
 that is good work i think i need to read this more critically more critically
 then zoom then go on to new business if yeah i don't think there is any but
 new business staff reports anybody have any reports to give
 this is where we talk about our upcoming schedule what you want to do in june
 uh as it stands right now we have two known lateral candidates we are doing some due
 diligence and making sure that those who have claimed firefighter certifications are not
 working elsewhere that might also qualify as a lateral so but we are only hiring two
 so we're looking at interview how do you want to proceed in june do you want to interview and
 uh i guess bless them to go forward in the process in the june meeting approve them
 or would you like to interview one meeting and do the next we had a total of 29 candidates who
 passed the interview in the test i do not think correct me if i'm wrong i would not think you'd
 want to interview 29 candidates for a list all in one evening we've kind of been speculating
 getting
 you two for the spots that we have in september and then setting a date later for our ongoing
 hire list of 15 or so then the remainder of the candidates would be on standby not first interview
 would be in september they would be for the september hires so what i want to know is do you
 want to interview people in june or do you want to identify and just do the two and then set a date
 for 15 interviews at another date or would you rather do 17 in one evening it's basically the
 first to fill an immediate need for two vacancies so you would interview them approve them for hire
 they're good then the next day interviews next year it'd be for a conditional approval so basically
 you give them thumbs up as long as they complete there's a need there's a vacancy and they complete
 the remaining steps then you don't have to interview them again right and that list is
 what we would go is what the merit is it's good for two years so we could interview the two that
 you're thinking of in june and then do two other groups in july or august september yeah and that
 group would be a significant you know 15 or so that we would have for that because i do know that
 at least one of those on the list is already on another fire department's hiring list as well so
 by the time we're ready to hire in late winter early spring some of those candidates will likely
 have found employment elsewhere so i hope not i hope they would like to just stay with us but
 i want to be realistic so that's and we have five questions for you prepared embedded by hr so you
 just need to interview and your interviews pass fail so you know as it stands so just let us know
 how you would like to move in the event that we do find another lateral that meets that there's
 i would also put them forward and these two when you say there are somewhere else there is a 77
 plan their perf plan they're ready to go i am just once somebody has claimed firefighter certifications
 i just want to make sure that they are not in in a fire department that's also for a perf
 department
 that you know i mean i don't know where everyone's at right i know we're linton and speedway and uh
 bedford and columbus and all these other ones are i know that they're in the perf but i don't know
 where midland and alt it so i don't know where everyone is so i don't know if they're so we make
 them all do we need a motion to do that or we i don't know i think if you if we put it on the
 agenda the interviews for candidates or i just need to know that that's going to be an executive
 session that happens in june so there'll be an executive session that will occur
 i would presume about an hour before the regular meeting would take place okay
 if we need a regular meeting what that might be the only thing that you need to do but we'll figure
 a regular meeting to yeah we'll figure the process out because this is all so very new for us
 and advise you but at the very least there's an executive session and i expect that immediately
 following that will be a regular meeting that approves the candidate for uh for the lateral
 positions that'd be perfect yeah and this would be the next and that'll be in june 24th correct
 these are enacted these are enacted in three days once we does that matter as far as
 next meeting be 28 days yeah because you've taken off right right yeah
 yeah we can change the date question on the timing 30 days and 28 days to the meeting
 these need to be in effect for 30 days prior to utilizing them is there a 30 day
 and the meeting is 28 days from now what i thank you um it's something we just we talked about
 yeah rules have been adopted they need to get posted and 30 days from today they take effect
 which means we cannot start doing hiring until after the 27th of june so we could bump it back
 a week or or do we just put it to the board of public safety for june yeah whatever's easiest
 that still gets us time yeah in which case we wouldn't even need the june
 meeting i don't think and we can figure that out later and you said you're leaving you're
 leaving for vacation or you're out of town i'm retired yes i have a summer home in northern
 michigan it is but it's not convenient for this because i'm gone july august last week in june
 first week in september so two and a half months you can zoom i can zoom but nicole has to be here
 then and we need three physical yeah as long as the other three are physically present you can
 attend by zoom and be considered present for all voting and everything necessary what we can't do
 is have you zoom in and be counted towards a quorum because you need to have three because
 we only have four members right now we got we're supposed to have five three makes a quorum
 and we then you can only make a quorum by those who are physically present does that make sense
 yes yeah if tuesday is a good day of the week for everyone could we just move it to the next week
 and we would avoid your schedule conflict and we stare out yeah oh you're out oh okay i see sorry
 well it won't be an issue if nicole can attend
 we leave sometime that first week of july for a vacation for a baseball trip but but it may not
 be till it because the first is the first is the next tuesday correct yeah yeah so i don't think we
 leave i don't think we leave till the second so i can actually do the first i mean we don't have to
 do that right i was just good for the first as well throw something out easier sooner the better
 right sure yeah well we gotta wait 30 days yeah i mean after the 30 days the sooner we can do it
 the
 better yeah the first should be fine for me if she came out of 10 first do you want to
 consider using the board of public safety one more time for these two
 two i did say in the last meeting it could be potentially because depending on the rule so
 we have that option until these rules are in effect this board is unable to operate and so
 therefore i believe that the board of public safety still can maintain jurisdiction over these
 in the event that we would not be able to do it on the first yeah we'd have time before the agenda
 gets posted so we just need to find and then i'd back it up the last part of that week before
 because that we would have our rules would have been placed for 30 days by then by the 26th the
 26 will be the date that they become effective so we could meet on the 26th or 27th
 of june of june or even june 30th
 if we're looking at a june date maybe utilities on the 30th
 we do don't we
 well we've got some options there yeah i guess we should ask nicole
 uh those all work about i'm not saying why i was in the 30th the 20 26 or 27th would work
 but i don't have to be here chief career than you'll be here so that doesn't necessarily matter
 do we know if we're any closer to that bit remember yet
 i don't sorry i don't mean to laugh but you know i don't whose appointment is that
 mayor are we closer to the fifth so i'm going to update the rules tomorrow morning get them to you
 so that you can um furnish copies to all department members
 yeah we'll put it on our learning management system and make your requirement all must read
 and acknowledge so yeah there's no question about the fact that they can furnish the morning the
 monkey right because otherwise they don't take effect until copies are furnished to all the
 members right and so we just i just want to make sure you get that done so i'm giving you as much
 time as possible to have that happen so you'll get the you'll get the adopted rules tomorrow
 and they take effect 30 days after today
 or would it be tomorrow no 30 days from today it took effect today when we adopted them okay
 i'm sorry they were adopted today at this meeting they take effect 30 days from today
 words all right i i as 30 days past all of them had to be
 no i'm going with your words
 starting today here not when we supply them to them correct okay
 i would just however yeah
 no so if we weren't able to get copies to everybody then they take effect
 if the 30 days have expired and we still didn't get copies to everybody
 they don't take effect until all members have received a copy that's how that works
 interesting
 we have 30 days to get them to everybody which i'm sure we can do
 all right
 we will find out whether nicole is available on one of those last days of june
 and go from there or july 1st we or july 1st and we will advise the board members
 accordingly as to what to expect with regards to those two lateral positions
 we know that on the 10th or so so that we could give advanced notice okay
 we'll have to notify nicole of our intentions and whether she thinks she's available for a
 executive session and special meeting in person in person on one of those available days at the end
 of the month i just want candidates two weeks notice i understand so we'll try to reach out to her
 tomorrow
 won't we heather
 back to you eric all right can i get a motion to adjourn
 well did we do public comment sorry public comments not that there's any public care
 there are any public comments no seeing none can i get a motion to adjourn i'll make that motion
 all right perfect meeting adjourned
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