- April 10th, 2025, meeting of the Lamington Historic Preservation Commission to order.
- >> Call the names.
- >> Elizabeth Mitchell, Ernesto Castaneda, Daniel Schlabel.
- >> He's here.
- >> Okay.
- Sam DeSaller.
- >> Here.
- >> Reynard Cross.
- >> Here.
- >> Jeremy Hacker.
- >> Here.
- >> Melody Dusner.
- >> Here.
- >> Duncan Campbell.
- >> Here.
- >> Karen Duffy.
- >> Here.
- >> All right.
- Does anybody have anything?
- I've got one item on the minutes, and that's a comment on page -- where are we?
- Page 10 under public comments, where it says, I allow for public comment, which I did.
- But the only thing is that in order to get more in line with Robert's rules, we have moved public
- comments prior to the commissioner comments, because otherwise they wouldn't have any chance to say
- anything.
- So you would just strike that note or amend it to reflect that.
- >> Commissioner comments, I have two comments in there, and the second one that says 1980 master
- plan should be 1990 master plan.
- >> I see what the problem is.
- >> Yeah.
- >> I misrecorded it again.
- >> Do you have anything for the minutes, Daniel?
- >> No.
- >> I'm one of the ones who made amendments. I will move to approve the minutes with the proposed
- amendments.
- >> Sam, you made the motion?
- >> Yes, sir.
- >> All right. Daniel Schlagel?
- >> I'll let him stay, and I wasn't here.
- >> Samuel Soller?
- >> Yes.
- >> Reynard Cross?
- >> Yes.
- >> Michael Baker?
- >> Yes.
- >> Jeremy Hackard?
- >> Yes.
- >> Melanie Duesner?
- >> Yes.
- >> Motion carries 5-0-1.
- >> All right. Before we start, you might let people know, if they're here for other cases,
- that there are two cases where the petitioner is not here today?
- >> As far as I know, two of the petitioners for agenda items, COA 2515 and 2516 have asked
- for these items to be continued until they can submit revised plans.
- >> That's both the Garden Hill ones.
- If the Garden Hill petitioners are not present and so they're going to be bumped to the next
- meeting.
- >> That is the last I've heard.
- >> I had been asked about -- Carrie had asked me about Sherry, whether she was going to
- attend.
- >> Sherry had wanted to attend but he doesn't have the revised plans yet, unfortunately.
- >> Sherry.
- >> Yeah.
- >> Does that mean we should go home?
- >> We could be entertaining.
- >> I put the coins in the meter and it's not recording what I'm putting in there.
- >> Well, I have the stuff in the packet and in the PowerPoint in case one of them does
- attend.
- So that's just the last that I heard.
- >> We greatly appreciate the APC's comments in the last three weeks ago, trying to make
- projects so much better.
- We appreciate that.
- Will there be an HPC in the future, Jack?
- I hope so.
- I empathize with your concern.
- >> Thank you.
- >> All right.
- Our first COA for the evening is COA 2518.
- This is a staff approval.
- The address is 515 South Hawthorne Drive in the Elm Heights Historic District.
- Petitioner is Kathleen Bethel.
- The request is for the removal of a sick, mature pin oak tree from the front yard.
- This 1935 colonial revival garrison house has two mature oak trees in the front yard.
- The northern tree has been inspected recently and several health problems have been identified
- that could damage the tree and surrounding buildings.
- Staff approve COA 2518.
- While the trunks of healthy oak trees can hollow with age and this tree is still sprouting foliage,
- the report and visual evidence presented show several factors that endanger the tree
- and the surrounding properties, including large dead or dying limbs, root rot, and rotting trunk
- cavities.
- Considering the risks that this tree poses to the surrounding properties and its numerous health
- issues,
- removal of the tree is an appropriate remedy.
- Thank you.
- Next item is COA 2519.
- This is also being handled as staff approval.
- This is for 523 West 7th Street in the Near West Side Historic District.
- The petitioners are Jennifer and Jay Kincaid.
- In August 2024, the Historic Preservation Commission approved COA 2428, proposing the construction
- of a new home on an empty lot in the Near West Side Historic District.
- The petitioners had indicated a desire to build fences and install solar panels, although these
- plans would have to wait pending further considerations.
- Now that the applicants are prepared to present a plan for these additions, they were returning to
- the HPC for review.
- The request is we are requesting approval to install a six foot high fence along part of the west
- side of the property facing Jackson Street, where a four foot fence would otherwise be the high
- limit.
- A six foot fence is already permitted and will be installed on the east side and rear side of the
- property.
- We request permission for a six foot fence to continue around the rest of the backyard in order to
- address several important concerns
- related to security, privacy, and aesthetics. First, the fence will serve as a necessary barrier to
- protect our vegetable garden from the local deer population, which frequently damages plants and
- disrupt landscaping efforts.
- A taller fence is essential to effectively deter them and maintain integrity of our outdoor space.
- Additionally, the fence will provide a practical solution for concealing trash cans from public
- view, ensuring a cleaner and more aesthetically pleasing streetscape that aligns with community
- standards.
- Most importantly, the six foot fence will enhance the security of our property by creating a
- defined boundary in the backyard that discourages trespassing, since a four foot fence would be
- much easier to climb over the front fence and side yard along the porch would have a shorter picket
- fence.
- So it is just the backyard that would have a more private area, enhancing safety and security.
- Furthermore, a property is directly across the street from the two story church property on Jackson
- Street, including a building with residences, as well as individuals seeking shelter on the church
- steps.
- There are often people congregating in close proximity, increasing foot traffic near our home.
- Without a six foot fence there is a direct line of sight into our backyard and living spaces,
- impacting our family's privacy.
- This is a unique situation in the neighborhood along a narrow street, putting more people in the
- immediate vicinity that would otherwise be present on a neighborhood block.
- Given these considerations we respectfully request approval for this installation and appreciate
- your time and thoughtful consideration. Sincerely, Jenny and Jake and Kate.
- This is the plan that's been proposed. Per district guidelines and UDO the six foot high barrier
- fence would be set back behind the front facade of the building.
- And the front yard picket fence meets the district standards of four feet in height, as well as
- material standards.
- The rooftop solar panels are located, or will be located on the rooftop close to the pitch of the
- roof line near the rear of the house.
- And here's some photo references that were sent to me of the choice of materials and designs for
- these two fences.
- Staff approved COA 2519.
- In the near west side fences and rooftop solar panels are generally handled as staff review. The
- four foot picket fence in the front of the house and six foot high vertical board privacy fence in
- the rear meet district guidelines and the proposed
- rooftop solar panels are located in an inconspicuous rear location.
- All right, next we'll move on to commission reviewed COAs.
- If anyone was here for staff review you don't need to stay for the rest of the meeting.
- Thank you for coming.
- So the first one on our agenda is going to be COA 2515. I might read the thing.
- Procedural statement at this point in the meeting, the Historic Preservation Commission will hear
- petitions for certificates of appropriateness, followed by demolition delays.
- For each item the Historic Preservation Program Manager will first present a staff report will then
- hear from the petitioner if they have any additional information followed by a round of questions
- from each commissioner, we asked the petitioners, the public and commissioners
- refrain from speaking until addressed by the chair, unless a question is directly addressed to them.
- And if a member of the public or petitioner wishes to comment, please raise your hand until
- recognized by the chair.
- Upon completion of public comments, chair will entertain motions from commissioners regarding the
- relevant certificate of appropriateness or demolition delay.
- And once a motion is made by the Commissioner, the chair then opens up discussion of the item for
- members of the commission only chair will call for a vote once each commissioner has been given a
- chance to comment on the motion.
- And we encourage all commissioners petitioners and members of the public to be civil and respectful
- at all times.
- Thank you. Do we have anybody attending tonight for COA 2515.
- Online.
- If nobody is present for this item it'll be continued.
- Next item.
- Is anybody here tonight for COA 2516.
- Yeah, just to check in.
- How long do these have left on the on the clock.
- COA 2517.
- This is for 807 West 8th Street in the near west side historic district.
- The petitioner is Stephanie Downey.
- This is a severely altered T plan cottage built circa 1910 here is the petitioner in attendance.
- All right.
- The proposal.
- We plan to redo the facade of our house to more closely match what would be appropriate for the
- original house changes include replace vertical siding with horizontal siding install vinyl siding.
- The plan is since been revised to change that to smooth fiber cement siding.
- I understand. All right.
- Outside Corners J channel on front of the house.
- Trim out windows similar to originals around the side certain teen sorry certain teed Main Street
- colonial white five inch horizontal.
- That would not be vinyl signing at this point. Add five inch shake from royal siding and a new 1.5
- square foot louvered attic vent to the gable replace the metal porch posts with six by six white
- turned Douglas for posts.
- The window and door trim replace the two front windows, one oversized still flashing windows
- supplied by customer dispose of old windows to match the other windows we replaced on the side of
- the house last summer.
- The porch will we be replaced with a windgate double hung 32 by 60 window, and the one not facing
- the porch will be replaced with a windgate double hung 72 by 60 window
- The house recommends approval of COA 2517 807 West 8th Street has been significantly altered. Some
- of the most noticeable exterior changes include the vertical siding on the street facing facade
- changes to windows and porch elements.
- The house was likely built with clabboard siding and wooden square turn post on the front porch,
- which were typically typical features of these turn of the century tea plant cottages.
- The replacement of the siding on the primary facade with horizontal fiber cement boards and the
- iron porch posts with turned wood meets district guidelines and are appropriate to the style of
- house.
- The shake siding proposed for the gable and attic vent also meet district guidelines and are
- complimentary to the house's design.
- The current windows on the primary facade are modern replacements and likely different size from
- the originals, which typically would have been tall and narrow.
- The proposed replacement windows, while larger than the current ones, would not entail a
- significant change to the house's already altered fenestration.
- The current window on the L is 68 inches wide and 44 inches high.
- And the porch facing window is 28 inches wide and 44 inches wide.
- That would be 72 inches by 60 inches and 32 inches by 60 inches respectively.
- Does the petitioner have anything to add.
- Commissioner questions jack questions.
- Jeremy.
- The siding. Is this also going to be the new setting, going to be installed on the best would be on
- the west side as well as it just along the side facing the street.
- Okay.
- Thank you.
- Yeah, I guess I had the same question is he is the current siding on the.
- Side in the picture we're seeing.
- Deciding on the front right now is the vertical vertical we have a picture of the side.
- I'm going to check I think we might have one of them. We have one in the packet.
- Yeah, that's the great final signing. Yeah, so that that's to remain in the, and there's an
- equipment board on the front.
- Yeah, it's a four, four inch four inch vinyl side.
- So you're going to match that reveal on the front. Yeah, we want to like carry the same lines
- across.
- Matching like vinyl up to cement board siding. So we're gonna have to do like a five quarter inch
- trim board on either side with a J on the vinyl and a budding on the cement side.
- Great. That was my next question. Thank you.
- Daniel questions.
- Questions.
- Any questions, comments from the public.
- Thank you. Talk about the Gable.
- I'd love to know about the Gable.
- And there's a couple of clarification material.
- There's a couple of clarification questions I like, because on that slide that was just up there.
- So that's sort of the profile of your turn post.
- And then at the bottom it says like nine, it looks like a foot but I'm guessing it's not nine feet.
- Any questions on this accurate, because on the other one it says it's a six by post turn post six
- by six in this direction, it's nine foot tall, so eight foot from the cement to the Eve so we'll
- chop foot somewhere.
- That makes a lot more sense. Great. And I want to do like a decorative bracket like the kind of you
- see on the tracks those like deck brackets you know they're meant to be exposed metal.
- It's like real thick, and it's got sort of like a scallop shape on it.
- Can you. So the other question I had was, and forgive me I know I might have mentioned it.
- It says Cyprus vinyl shake on the photographs but I heard some mention of, is that also still going
- to be vinyl, or is that going to be a fiber cement.
- We'd like to use vinyl for that, because it's way more cost effective.
- You know like doing the Cyprus is sort of like just like the style the name of the thing that the
- deciding company makes. It's not like actual Cyprus would
- right.
- I think.
- Having heard questions I can entertain a motion.
- And we approve COA 2517.
- Second. Second.
- Comments.
- Jack.
- I agree with the stats staff assessment.
- I just want to compliment you guys for working on this house and trying to make it.
- And working with a look like the local committee as well to get their feedback.
- I'm just excited as well I think this is going to look great, especially turning it back closer how
- it's supposed to look. I think it's wonderful.
- I just want to add thanks to the applicants for working so nicely with and responsibly with the
- committee, the neighborhood design committee.
- They took very seriously every, every point that we made an explanation and in trying to help them.
- When they first came and I think the house looks great. I mean the original form is still there,
- which is really nice.
- I mean, and the alterations to that by way of window and, you know, you're, you're taking care of
- those getting it back to a more compatible.
- I would second most all you said, and thank you for bringing it much closer to the way it was
- probably meant to be. Thank you.
- I think we can, unless anybody has any other comments.
- We can call the vote.
- Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
- You don't have to stick around unless you really want to see next item is COA 2520.
- This is for 324 South Rogers Street in the Prospect Hill Historic District.
- The petitioners Jamie Galvin 324 South Rogers Street is a turn of the century to story free
- classical house designed by Bloomington architect john Nichols.
- In 2019 the Bloomington Historic Preservation Commission approved the removal of aluminum siding
- and the addition of a balcony on the North Gable with the condition of staff approval prior to the
- removal of any decorative detail that may be found under the aluminum siding.
- This was COA 1948.
- Work proposed in COA 1948 has not yet been undertaken, and the COA expired after two years in
- October 2021.
- Work approved in an earlier 2019 application, including the addition of a shed dormer on the west
- elevation and several sun tubes had been completed, however, November 2024 the house was damaged in
- a fire causing substantial damage to the interior, as well as windows doors and siding.
- This proposal includes the removal of aluminum siding on the home.
- East and south facing Gable details will remain to rebuild and substantially, this will be
- replacement on the chimney on the east side of the home.
- Adding a balcony to the north Gable, as was previously approved in COA 1948.
- Replace damaged skylights previously approved, replace windows and doors to remain the same size
- and configuration.
- The windows and doors will be wood or wood clad in a replacement style to mimic the original design.
- Original siding will be restored when possible.
- The original siding will be replaced with wood board siding installed to copy the original exposed
- siding.
- Staff recommends approval of COA 2520 conditional approval with staff approval prior to removal of
- any decorative detail that may be found under the aluminum siding.
- The proposal includes the addition of a balcony that had been previously approved by the Commission.
- The rest of the application concerns necessary repairs, which would restore historic features
- damaged in the 2024 fire.
- Design guidelines recommending against synthetic siding refer explicitly to vinyl and aluminum siding
- applied over clabbered which would damage original historic materials and create a nonhistoric
- appearance.
- Historic siding details hidden under the aluminum siding may not be determined until they are
- revealed, but considering the urgent need to reside the house.
- These features may need to be addressed as they are uncovered staff review of replacement doors may
- be necessary to confirm the match to originals.
- So, a lot of these pictures were included in the last co a that was received in 2019.
- So,
- the skylights, those are already on
- that dormer has since been added on the rear of the house.
- So this balcony on the north side is not yet been added on that is been brought back in this
- proposal.
- Any comments from the petitioner.
- Any questions from the commissioners Jack.
- I understand correctly that the house is largely covered with aluminum siding now.
- And during the renovation, during and after the renovation that loom siding will largely remain or
- was the plan to replace all the loom siding during the process.
- The entire building.
- In terms of reuse of materials, is there a plan to reuse windows doors such as this progresses.
- The damage from the fire of the building, none of the windows, original to the building on the
- store hall.
- Prior to the fire, the windows were 90 to 98% original windows and so previous engagements with the
- committee resulted in adding storm windows to protect the historical nature without replacing.
- In this particular case, resulting from the fire, 90 95% of the windows have been destroyed due to
- the amount of heat.
- And fire that pillow from those windows.
- Thank you.
- On the balcony. Have you consulted with a structural engineer.
- The consultation with the structural engineer was done prior prior COA that was submitted on for
- the design the interior of the attic is was to be built as a living space.
- The majority of the framing had been construction in the building with the floor and the support
- walls supporting the former.
- The balcony was designed to go on that north side was not constructed.
- Due to the increased cost of lumber, as well as a injury that slowed down the construction.
- Thank you.
- You asked my question about the setting so no questions.
- So, from what you said that it sounds like most of are all of the windows are damaged in the fire,
- or I'm seeing the, well that's not the picture the picture with the shows the fire damage is just
- showing the front.
- It wasn't clear from the application. If all the windows are being replaced or, and then I noticed
- it said doors and I don't not sure where these are located when I when I drove by that earlier, it
- was, you can see all the way around the fire.
- The windows that are remaining on that have not been blown up from the fire have fractures in the
- original pain.
- Because of the fractures in the original pain. That window is destroyed, and the surrounding rain
- structure on the inside has also been destroyed and damaged from the intense heat.
- The original house maintained 90% of the original plaster, it was repaired in the store. And as the
- original plaster acted as a baking oven, which increased the heat and stress causing the windows to
- fail.
- If you look at the window on the right hand side of that picture being shown under the gable, it is
- largely intact. However, the majority of it that is intact or protection is a result of the storm
- window, not the original window of the building.
- I know.
- Any questions or comments from the public.
- Did you survive the fire okay. Yes, I worked across the street on the pink house.
- You unmute them and see if they.
- You're unmuted.
- Mr. Lewis.
- Yeah, I'm not sure.
- We can see the transcription.
- Just a moment here.
- No.
- Maybe if you turn on the computer for me. Oh yeah, I can try.
- That's just my mic though.
- We have a speaker in the lower right hand corner.
- Okay, try it now.
- Okay, this is Richard Lewis.
- We can. Yep.
- Okay, great. Sorry to take up much of your time, but thanks for listening this evening.
- I'm on the design review committee for the other historic district and have no official involvement
- with this historic district just want to speak out in support of my and his family and their
- rebuilding process.
- They're very confident that what they do.
- And this was a tremendous loss for our neighborhood community.
- Thank you.
- We have anybody else online.
- Okay.
- All right.
- Commissioner comments.
- Oh, yes, we need a motion. My bad.
- All right, we have a motion to second.
- Daniel.
- Comments.
- Well,
- not so much technical but sorry that all this happened.
- Lovely old house. I live in the next neighborhood south.
- It's always hard to see the house.
- They destroyed the fire. It's terrible.
- There is in repairing an old house, just being an old house.
- But after a fire and what I've seen here, you've got your work cut out for you to certainly hope
- well for you.
- I'm glad everybody safe, made it out okay.
- Wish you luck with renovating it.
- I support project supported to.
- Yeah, I'll say what I said, the first time they came through this, this is John Nichols house they're
- valuable in their own right. I'm really sorry the interior is damaged because about 50% of his
- contribution is in the interior, but I'm really glad it's being rebuilt.
- Okay, make sure the approval part Noah had suggested, so there's too many pages, the conditional
- with being able to that's a part of it correct, or do we need to make that
- to approve it as presented by staff. Yeah. Thank you for that clarification. So that would include.
- I just want to be 100% sure. So, okay. I'm really glad you restoring it like this I think it's
- going to look great when you're done so
- same. Nothing different to add. Thank you for taking it on. Yeah, I'm glad everybody's okay and
- later still won't work on it. Thank you.
- At this point, unless we have other comments from the public.
- OK.
- Daniel Schlegel?
- Yes.
- Sam DeSolar?
- Yes.
- Reynard Cross?
- Yes.
- Jack Baker?
- Yes.
- Jeremy Hackard?
- Yes.
- Melody Duesner?
- Yes.
- Motion carries 6-0.
- Thank you for coming in.
- Good luck.
- All right, next item is COA 2521.
- This is 4702 West Kirkwood in the Near West Side Historic
- District.
- Is the petitioner here?
- All right, petitioner is Simon Ladd.
- This is a slightly altered T-Plan cottage
- with a sort of a polygonal L. In 2025,
- the owner removed four wood-framed double-hung
- windows on the front-facing L and replaced them
- with double-hung divided light vinyl--
- is it vinyl or fiberglass?
- I don't know.
- OK.
- Topped with transom lights.
- This application is for a retroactive COA,
- and it is in response to notice of violation 2502.
- New trim has not yet been installed.
- Doom may concern the materials used to repair the windows
- at 702 West Kirkwood Ave, where windows and cedar and pine
- wood.
- The measurements of the old windows are 30 by 80.
- The new windows are 35 and 1/2 by 65 and 1/2.
- The headers installed on the windows are 4 and 1/2 inches.
- New sills were installed.
- The transom lights were installed
- to keep the original height.
- The transom measurements are 30 by 14.
- We'll run through some photos.
- The windows appear from the interior.
- You can see what has been added between the replacement windows
- and the transom lights.
- These are original windows elsewhere in the house,
- as well as the newly installed windows
- as they appear from the exterior.
- Staff is conflicted on COA 2521.
- The two changes to consider in this case
- are the removal of historic materials
- and the changes to the configuration of the window
- openings.
- In the Near West Side Historic District,
- the replacement of windows and doors
- with the same size, configuration, and operation
- is generally exempt from review unless it entails
- the removal of a particularly significant historic materials.
- In this case, the previous wood windows,
- while likely original or at least very old,
- judging by their size and materials,
- have a fairly simple and replicable appearance.
- With transoms included, the new windows that have been installed
- come close in size to the historic windows, which still
- exist elsewhere in the building, and the arrangement
- and proportions of fenestration is not significantly altered.
- Transom lights are a common feature
- in turn of the century doors in the Near West Side,
- but much less typical of windows.
- Some unusual examples can be found
- on some secondary facades at 607 West Kirkwood and 514 West
- Kirkwood, and over some larger and more elaborate windows
- on other houses.
- In staff opinion, the main point of consideration
- is the extent to which the replacement window
- pane configuration conflicts with the surrounding buildings.
- Does the petitioner have anything to add?
- No, it's just that we had to put the--
- when we replaced the windows that were there,
- which we decided weren't actually original to that.
- Like you said, we didn't have any headers above them.
- So we-- and then I saw those on other buildings,
- and I was like, I like that.
- Because those windows, I didn't special order them.
- It was actually-- most of them were rotted out in sills
- and everything and frames.
- So I've learned a lot.
- I've just never considered getting
- them from the tree festival, so it makes me happy.
- But now, now I know.
- Oh, go ahead, yeah, he helped--
- I'd like to add something, too.
- On those windows that got removed,
- there were no window weights in them, no ropes.
- He had those zero headers up above that just hacked off,
- and they were just in there.
- The inside trim was particle board.
- So I will say that some of the windows
- were kind of dangerous, because the single panes wanted
- to fall out of them.
- Yeah, it basically fits the same holes.
- Very close, very close.
- You didn't have to take that in.
- You got just the frames of the window, basically.
- Thank you.
- Have we heard anything from--
- There is a window on that building
- that does have a hatching tool.
- Does have a what?
- There is a window on that building, one of the older
- windows there that does have hatching on the side.
- So I'll remote several of these old houses,
- and sometimes you'll find that in a wall.
- This was reported to me by the Neighborhood Design Review
- Committee, but I haven't received comments on this item.
- It was one that came in last--
- or the Thursday at the previous meeting.
- OK.
- Thank you.
- Commissioner, questions?
- Jack.
- I'd like to know what the plan for the trim is.
- I don't have enough data here to really make a good decision.
- I can't see what the plan is for trim around this.
- Well, so we have plans, and what I was thinking we would do
- is mock one up and see how you like it.
- Because our plan, I don't know if it'll work,
- because every time you try to do something
- in this old house, something doesn't work out
- the way you thought.
- So I hope our first plan works.
- I'm doing a slightly bigger trim of that last picture, right?
- So that trim and that signing that's on actually
- overlaps the old trim, right?
- That one's a fairly good estimate of it, right?
- I was thinking about maybe not doing that one,
- because it can't get much whiter.
- I was thinking maybe something a little bit whiter,
- and then something with a little--
- I'm sorry, going like some sort of rebuild
- that comes out a little more like there.
- So like some of the houses I've seen around the neighborhood,
- instead of just a flat piece.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- Yes.
- Can you get more of your siding material?
- You have cement board--
- Done before with that stuff, and we've made it out of wood.
- And painted it to match.
- You can do it, cool stuff to match it.
- Yeah, let's paint it.
- You could buy that.
- It's a non-asbestos material, but you can't buy it.
- OK.
- Well, a lot of houses in Bloomington
- used to be called Rancho Deluxe.
- I like that name.
- Well, we've done that to that house, actually.
- All right.
- Here's another one that might be my dad.
- Those are my questions from a few years ago.
- So yeah, that house has had a lot of remodels over here.
- It's very hard to tell.
- So it's original.
- Thank you.
- Jeremy, you have questions?
- No.
- Are transom windows typical for this design of a house?
- Not really.
- Or not in this location over, you know,
- just front-facing windows?
- Thank you.
- Commissioner Carlos, your questions?
- I want to clear as to what is being asked.
- Am I being asked to approve this with the transom?
- Is--
- Well, there are examples of it in the neighborhood.
- I--
- Do you have questions?
- Yeah.
- I'm trying to--
- [INTERPOSING VOICES]
- I--
- Once we get it turned down.
- Sir, sir, sir, can you wait until--
- The difficulty I'm having is I see the damage,
- but I have no idea what it's going to look like or what--
- what is it that homeowners are envisioning that it will
- look like when it's finished?
- I mean, I suspect that there will be trim of some kind
- surrounding it and, you know, that sort of thing.
- But there are examples and pictures, the normal thing
- that I'd see in a package of this sort,
- maybe a manufacturer's specification or--
- or I'm at a loss as to what the finished product is
- going to look like.
- We have discussed whether or not to include a proposal
- for a trim in this application.
- I thought in this case, because this
- was a response to the violation, that that might be putting
- the cart before the horse.
- You know, I'm assuming that when these windows were replaced,
- there was a vision that they had something in mind as to,
- when we replaced it and put this new window in
- and the transom in and everything's finished,
- what was it going to look like when it was done?
- But what I see here is a half-finished window
- replacement, and I have no idea of what it is going to look
- like when it's finished.
- I'm having difficulty approving it, you know.
- You want me to come back to you when you've--
- see if you're happy for the questions.
- Yes.
- OK.
- Yeah, well, my question is, what is it going to look like?
- What is it?
- And I don't think the homeowners are
- prepared to answer that question.
- So I am obviously not prepared to approve anything.
- But that's a comment I'm sorry.
- Questions?
- Tom, can you have any questions?
- I think that's already been answered, which is basically
- Bernard's question.
- What's the final going to look like?
- We need to know that.
- David, you have questions?
- That one.
- OK.
- Any questions?
- I got-- that's a can of worms.
- I'm not going to--
- I've got no questions.
- Do you have a question?
- Yeah, I've got another question.
- It's not this bottle, I hope.
- How long have you owned this house?
- How long have you owned it?
- Yeah.
- 25 years.
- OK, and did you know you needed a COA?
- I have my parents owned it.
- Right.
- But I'm just trying to get a sense of, did you
- know it was in a historic district?
- And were you aware that you need approval before taking on--
- OK, can you repeat that?
- Did you know that some kind of approval
- would have been required for you?
- No.
- Well, you knew it was in a historic district.
- I own several houses in these districts.
- I've never considered getting a permit
- for replacing a broken damaged window.
- I just didn't.
- So like I said, I've learned some things.
- And that's to your comment on what's
- it going to look like afterwards.
- When I received the paperwork, it said, stop all work.
- So my proposal is that what I want to do
- is I want to trim one out and find out what works
- and then bring that to you.
- If you don't like it, I'll rip it out and do something else.
- Right.
- I think my question is, you said that you've
- owned homes in historic districts.
- And you have realized that there are protections
- for buildings in historic districts.
- We don't really go outside of the initial structure.
- Most of the stuff that we do is interior.
- We're then replacing the siding, robes, mirrors.
- We haven't added onto a house.
- Or got anything other than a building permit for many years.
- And that's as honest as it could be.
- Yeah, no, I just never, never thought about it.
- But now I do.
- So I was trying to keep it so it does kind of conform.
- And I only thought about the transom
- because I've seen it in other places.
- I wanted it to look good.
- But yeah, I mean, that's my proposal.
- If you guys are OK with it, I'd just like to try one out.
- Thank you.
- And try to keep it to what I see.
- Thank you.
- I will entertain a motion.
- I move that we do not approve COA 2521.
- Do I have a second?
- I'll second.
- Good.
- Let's talk about it.
- You want to-- I think you might have, in your question period,
- might have sort of elaborated on--
- I do not know what it is that I'm approving.
- And until I know exactly what it's going to look like when
- it's finished, I think we'll be doing every one of the service
- by proceeding beyond this point.
- So I'm going to ask the question that I think addresses why Noah
- was talking about, like why bother with trim.
- Is anybody OK with this transom and double divided,
- six over six, double hung window in place of a tall, narrow,
- double hung one-one?
- That was originally in the opening.
- No, I'm not OK with it.
- That's why I asked about the transoms if they were--
- Yeah.
- I mean, they're common over doors.
- And over windows, it's very rare.
- I mean, they're usually either above entry doors for light
- or above interior doors for ventilation.
- But over windows, it's very odd.
- I find this whole configuration very odd.
- And so it's-- yeah, it's a little disturbing.
- You have a question or comment?
- I just support what Renard's talking about in terms
- of being able to see something that we'd actually
- be improving.
- That's always important.
- We'd ask that for pretty much everybody,
- seeing a plan laid out.
- So I fully support what he's saying.
- Yeah, I mean, the petitioner is offering to mock it up.
- But given-- I want to get some clarity about--
- I don't want to waste anybody's time.
- I want to get clarity about, OK, if he--
- is anybody OK with these particular windows,
- regardless of how they are trimmed out?
- And so far, I'm getting no's around the table.
- Daniel?
- No, I'm just agreeing.
- Anybody have other commentary?
- I feel pretty strongly that the window-style proportions
- actually was removed.
- It should be put back.
- It's an architectural house.
- This is an important house.
- And retaining the original look of the house,
- I think, is important to come along
- with a modified window condition with transom over something
- that was not in the house ever, and is an unusual design
- aspect in this town, in this area.
- I think that's a disservice to the house.
- So I feel pretty strongly that if such windows design
- the proportions such can be done, can be ordered, made,
- I think that's what needs to go back.
- Just to clarify for the petitioner and for everybody,
- HPC does not have any purview over anything
- that goes on on the inside of the house.
- We don't have any say over that.
- But for the outside of the house,
- if you're making changes, you can usually
- replace stuff in kind.
- You can do repairs.
- If you're replacing a double-hung wood window
- with the same size double-hung wood window,
- you can do that if it's not reparable.
- So anything else, more or less, has
- to come before the commission.
- And this is one of those that--
- I'm glad it's in front of us.
- I'm sort of sorry it came here at this point.
- I think we are at the point where we take a call to roll.
- OK.
- I'm sorry.
- One more question.
- Yes, sir?
- If we deny this, what options does the owner have, then?
- Can we explain what the options are to him?
- Oh, yeah.
- So the options are--
- I mean, we can sit down with you and talk about viable options.
- But I think what I'm hearing from a lot of people here
- is we would like to see a double-hung window that
- matches the size of the window that was removed.
- And I think there's going to be a negotiation.
- I got to look at the guidelines, but there's
- a negotiation about what the material of that window is.
- So that's kind of what we're looking for, would be my guess.
- And then they can reapply?
- Reapply.
- In general, there's a timeline that's
- decided on by the commission for--
- Right, to find the right NOV.
- Mm-hmm.
- OK.
- All right.
- Thank you.
- So we got to go around and vote on this thing.
- And the motion out there is to deny.
- So yes means-- yes means no.
- Yes means deny.
- OK.
- All right, Daniel Schlegel.
- Yes.
- Sam DeSaller.
- Yes.
- Reynard Cross.
- Yes.
- Jack Baker.
- Yes.
- Jeremy Hacker.
- Yes.
- Melody Duesner.
- Yes.
- Motion to deny carries 6-0.
- We're happy to sit down with you and talk through options.
- Thanks for coming in.
- All right.
- Thank you.
- I wasn't.
- We got it.
- Next item, COA 2522.
- This is for 510 West Allen Street in the McDowell Historic
- District.
- Is the petitioner here?
- Yes.
- Great.
- OK.
- The primary structure on the lot is a slightly altered 1926
- bungalow.
- The proposal includes alterations for a non-contributing garage
- at the rear of the lot.
- The garage for which alterations are proposed
- is a non-contributing garage located
- in the rear of the lot.
- The east gable side of the garage door
- faces an alley beside the Hoosier Heights climbing gym.
- The request is for a second story addition on the garage.
- No changes to the exterior garage footprint.
- Outside of the exterior, stairs to the second story entrance
- are proposed.
- Existing footprint is 14 feet by 22 feet.
- Exterior stair and landing footprint is 7.5 feet by 12 feet.
- The foundation and existing structure,
- we will underpin the existing foundation
- with additional concrete footings.
- We will also sheer up the existing structure
- to address some additional load.
- Exterior aluminum siding will be removed.
- The shingle roof will be removed.
- Gas and water to be brought to the garage from the house.
- Structural interior will be finished as a studio
- to serve as additional living and working space
- for the home's occupants, furnished gravel parking spot
- next to the existing paved driveway,
- proven dogwood tree inside backyard fence,
- move fence, and fence gate profile
- to accommodate gravel parking spot.
- The exterior will include 4-inch lap fiber cement siding
- to match the house's wood siding, resided in 2022,
- oral composite trim to match the house's freeze boards,
- drip caps, windows, and door trim to match the house,
- architectural roof shingles to match the house.
- Hello windows, wood interior, cloud exterior
- will be double-hung on both sides,
- sorry, double-hung on the south side
- to match the house windows.
- Two casement windows on east and west facing sides
- to maximize light and airflow.
- A second door, second floor entry door.
- Originally, two doors on the front of the house,
- one was entering the living room,
- the other entering the front bedroom.
- The latter was removed many years ago
- and placed in the basement.
- It is a three-panel door on the bottom
- with one large window light on top.
- I am planning to use it for the second story entry
- on the garage.
- Construction, lumber frame, framing, trusses, sheathing,
- created lumber for exterior stairs and porch landing,
- proxel-type insulation, guard rail will be 37 inches high,
- new garage door to replace the existing dented garage door,
- poured concrete footings, interior outside of our purview.
- These are the drawings that I received,
- as well as a model proposed design
- for the second floor layout.
- And an example of the type of stairs
- that are being proposed now,
- as well as the replacement garage door that's being proposed.
- Staff recommends approval of COA 2522
- If the garage at 510 West Allen were built to a height of 21 feet,
- it would be minimally visible from the street
- and likely not visible from directly in front of the house,
- although it would be visible from the connecting alleyway.
- Although district guidelines encourage
- that roof lines on accessory buildings
- match the pitch of the primary structure,
- here a gambrel roof may work to the design's advantage
- by lowering the visible profile of the new construction.
- The McDowell District guidelines encourage flexibility.
- In considering the limited scale and visibility of this project,
- as well as efforts to relate the proposed new construction
- to the primary structure,
- in staff opinion, this proposal should be reviewed flexibly.
- While the written description and materials provided
- give a clear indication of the exterior materials to be used,
- the elevation drawings may need some clarification of details
- that are not visually indicated.
- It should be noted that planning and building code considerations,
- including side setbacks and fire code,
- may necessitate easements or revisions to this plan.
- Revisions would have to be brought to the Historic Preservation Commission
- for amendments to be approved to this plan.
- Does the petitioner have anything she'd like to add?
- I'd just like to say that I think you said that the house was
- clad in cement board siding.
- I actually restored the lap siding that was there.
- And so the house is wood.
- And there is no wood underneath the aluminum siding.
- So this would have to be cement board.
- Also, I am trying to relate it to the house.
- I do recognize that the roof line is--
- I find it challenging, because I'd
- like to have a roof line that emulates the house.
- But I am trying to keep the profile low.
- And there are several examples of amble roofs
- in the neighborhood.
- Thank you.
- Do we have anything from the Neighborhood Design Review
- Committee?
- Yes.
- We are next door to her.
- So we would be most affected by what she's wanting to do.
- Also, we share a sewer line hookup.
- So again, we would be affected most about this.
- The fact that this is going to be like a limited access,
- meaning maybe one person, maybe two people,
- would possibly be living there and not full time
- would really affect it as far as we're concerned.
- But most of all, I mean, her house is very small.
- It's smaller than ours, which is right next door.
- So this would give her extra room
- and the flexibility of her guests
- to stay in a place and be comfortable.
- And I see no problem.
- And actually, Karen has been very good because before she
- started this, she talked to a structural engineer
- about this because adding a second story
- and making a living quarter, she wanted
- to make sure it's safe for the residents there.
- And so she's addressing the foundation issues as well,
- which I think is very good.
- So we definitely approve it.
- And we see no problem with it.
- We see no problem with the roof line
- because if anyone is taller than four feet tall,
- if you have a pitched roof, they'll
- be hitting their heads except for in the center of it.
- So the gable works better for her.
- And I will also say that I have been in touch with planning,
- somebody from planning, and I'll meet with them
- about the variance that I will need on the alley side
- and on the side that I share with the ashes.
- And then I did speak with the structural engineer
- at the beginning.
- And I've also been in touch with the utilities people
- to consult about the sewer, because we do--
- our sewers intersect before they go into the city sewer.
- Thank you.
- And we in McDowell are preservation light
- to an extreme.
- We actually got some protests.
- But if we approved the rope room for Hooters Heights Climbing
- Facility, the big, ugly building,
- yeah, we're pretty permissive.
- And we're eager to see Karen get whatever she wants.
- Thank you.
- Questions?
- I'll start with Karen this time.
- Sorry.
- I don't have any questions.
- Thank you.
- Dan, you have a question?
- I think it's covered everything.
- Something?
- So is this now an ADU?
- Not now.
- It's a garage now.
- But I think you're applying what I'm hearing is.
- Application for use.
- My interest is to expand my living space and opportunity
- for, I guess, to stay there.
- My second bedroom is used entirely as my art studio.
- So I don't have another place.
- But legally, yeah, the ADU.
- So I guess that's not our purview.
- But I'm just wondering if that's permissible here.
- I mean, as long as she does the deed restriction,
- it's totally doable.
- And as far as planning, I mean, that's a planning question.
- So that's a conversation that she's going to have to have.
- Oh, do you have questions?
- No.
- No more questions?
- Jeremy, Jack, a couple.
- Have you had--
- I'm getting simulances here that you've
- had some conversation about the project.
- Have you run into any roadblocks on this
- yet in terms of zoning setbacks and such?
- Or does it look like you have a straight go ahead and--
- Oh, no.
- I spoke with Eric Rulick of planning.
- And I will need variances to apply
- to the setbacks for the alley.
- And on the side of my neighbors, the ashes, we need five--
- he said that as a single story structure built in 1960s,
- this is what it is.
- But if I build up, I will need to apply those codes
- for setbacks.
- And this building does not meet the standard.
- So it will need to have variances for that.
- And I may need a variance for the fire code as well.
- Thank you.
- We talked about the height of the building needing
- to be really no taller than the existing peak of the house.
- It's a single story house with a peak of what?
- With a peak is 18 feet.
- 18 feet.
- And this is 21, roughly?
- And that's, according to the neighborhood rules,
- were within reason?
- Well, part of my rationale for suggesting approval
- is you'll see this house is on a slightly higher elevation
- behind a retaining wall.
- So having a roof line that's slightly taller
- will probably not be visible from most angles
- on the street.
- You would notice it if you're in the alleyway.
- And going back to the roof line issue,
- I think this is a particular case in which going
- for a gambrel roof line instead of a gabled one that
- matches the house's design.
- That creates sort of a lower profile for the roof
- additionally.
- That-- yeah.
- Good.
- Thank you.
- It's way behind the house.
- Also, yeah, this is pretty far back.
- Yeah.
- There's, right, some pictures of the lot
- on the back of it.
- You've answered me well enough.
- Thank you.
- OK.
- We don't have any questions.
- Thank you.
- I think we're-- anything from the public?
- No.
- Anything from the public?
- All right.
- I can entertain a motion.
- I'll move for approval.
- COA 25-22.
- Yeah.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- Gary.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- All right.
- Comments?
- Gary?
- I agree that the unusual shape of the gamble roof
- is a good trade-off for the height.
- I don't know that you'd see it on the street when I went there.
- It took me a while to even find the alley and back there.
- Who's going to know unless they stumble across it?
- Daniel?
- No, mine was about that, but Noah addressed that earlier,
- so I'm all good.
- Melody?
- No.
- No?
- I'm good with it.
- Karen?
- Just laying a little groundwork with questions.
- I live in the neighborhood, obviously,
- and I looked at the square footage of this.
- It's 307 square feet, which is small compared to the houses
- we talked about, 1,500 square feet.
- Seems to fit the guidelines.
- The height, I don't see that as an issue.
- And the visual compatibility of that gambrel roof,
- it bothers me a little bit, but there are probably
- half a dozen similar roof lines like that in the neighborhood.
- So in terms of the flexibility, compatibility,
- I think we can be flexible there.
- I'm a little worried for the code issues,
- and I hope that all goes well.
- But I'll work on this.
- Yeah, I guess my only comment would be--
- well, I think McDall Gardens is a fabulous neighborhood.
- And glad to see you guys here.
- And I guess my only real comment is
- that if you have trouble with the variances,
- you will more than likely have to come back and see this again
- based on where it is on the site.
- But yeah, I think ADUs are a great solution.
- I think they help anchor a neighborhood
- and make it more resident-owned and occupied.
- And it's one more shield against friendly development.
- But not by right.
- I'm so pleased that she's had to come to you guys
- and that she'll have to go through--
- you wouldn't want these just jammed in with the neighbors
- not having any say.
- Since you're an historic district,
- you've got to come say hi.
- That's not a bad thing.
- We're friends.
- You know, historically, when we've done approvals
- and they're headed to plan commission, which this may well
- be, we have sent a representative to speak
- in favor of the project.
- And so, you know, you're the chair,
- but we could make that available to her if she wants.
- I'd be happy to come chat with them if it would be of help.
- And we can also, as part of our motion,
- say that we would support a variance.
- We've done that in the past as well.
- Would a friendly amendment of supporting the variance
- be all right?
- OK.
- I think we're going to call the roll.
- OK.
- Daniel Schlegel?
- Yes.
- Sam DeSaller?
- Yes.
- Reynard Cross?
- Yes.
- Jack Baker?
- Yes.
- Jeremy Hackard?
- Yes.
- Melody Duesner?
- Yes.
- Motion carries 6-0.
- Thanks for coming in.
- Thanks.
- And on a historic note, the house itself
- was built by Reverend Kai Grail, who
- was part of the Lincoln's history.
- Did he serve at the church next door?
- No.
- The one on--
- Lincoln and--
- No, no, you've got the wrong one.
- It's on Washington, near--
- near Grail.
- OK, no problem.
- It was like a free Methodist church.
- Yeah.
- I hope we didn't offend anybody.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- Next item is demolition delay.
- We have one demo delay for tonight.
- DD2507 for an outbuilding at 720 South High Street.
- The petitioner is Leo Pilachowski,
- and the proposal is for full demolition
- of a garage and workshop.
- 720 South High Street is a 1930 two-story front dormer
- break bungalow with limestone architectural features listed
- as notable on the--
- Does anyone need to be here for these?
- Not necessarily, but if there's any questions or--
- Do you, sir?
- Anything needs to be addressed.
- Listed as notable on the Indiana Historic Sites and Structures
- Inventory for its high degree of integrity.
- Behind the house, parallel to East First Street,
- is an 864-square-foot wood frame garage and workshop
- with a set of doors running half its length along the east side.
- The building has been added to several times,
- including a small addition on the west end
- and a shed roof office addition on the north side facing
- away from the street.
- The garage retains many of its historic materials,
- including windows, doors, and some interior mechanical
- equipment.
- There are also structural issues,
- including a cracked slab foundation and decay
- resulting from neglect.
- The date of the garage's construction is uncertain,
- but it was likely contemporaneous with the house,
- which was built by stone carver Henry J.B. Andrews.
- Andrews served as a military engineer in World War I,
- suffering serious injuries. After returning to the US,
- he married his wife Edna and worked in a local quarry.
- The 1930s, Andrews went into private practice
- running Bloomington Monument Works out
- of the garage pictured.
- Andrews served as a grandmaster at a Masonic Lodge.
- His practice passed on to his son Charles in 1977.
- Charles Andrews also lived in the house
- and worked out of the garage until 1987.
- For most of this period, Bloomington Monument Works
- was one of Bloomington's primary monument dealers.
- The property remained in the hands of the Andrews family
- until 2024.
- The request is for full demolition.
- The staff recommendation is for the release of demolition
- delay 2507.
- Both the garage and the house at 720 South High Street
- have architectural significance and social significance
- for Bloomington's limestone industry.
- It is unfortunate that the garage and the workshop
- has not found a new use since Bloomington Monument Works
- vacated the building.
- The building likely can be restored,
- though substantial work would be required for nearly
- every part of the building.
- Without the garage, the house would still
- be a notable property, although this building certainly
- contributes to its architectural and historic social context.
- Does the petitioner have anything to add?
- No, I-- we purchased the building in December last year,
- mainly because of the--
- we saw some of the bidders that were bidding on it
- and looked at their history in Bloomington,
- and we were pretty sure that they would apply for a demolition
- permit and build a--
- in the past, they had built student housing.
- Quite frankly, had I known that second bidder, second highest
- bidder, who he was, I wouldn't have withdrawn my bid,
- because that person has done a--
- seems to-- an investor from California
- seems to have done a decent job in Bloomington,
- and I think that he would have done a good job,
- but I didn't know who was going to do it in the neighborhood.
- So my wife and I own the house just south of it.
- It's in the new house, the red house that's there
- on that area, and we thought that to have
- some control over what happened in that lot,
- we'd make a purchase of that.
- I will tell you, I'm not in the position
- of doing the rehabilitation of it, of the house itself,
- and my plans are to--
- I know what it's going to take.
- My plans are, if that's feasible,
- to have someone else purchase the house and do it.
- I'm not worried about that.
- But we wanted some control over what
- was going to happen so that it wouldn't be transitioned
- into something other than a single family
- house in the neighborhood.
- I will say that the garage is kind of a--
- it's not really a garage.
- It's not deep.
- The size of the slab is not deep enough to be a garage.
- It's only 16 feet, essentially.
- So that's not really deep enough to have a--
- put our cars in that, not to be done
- there as a garage for the house.
- The notable part of the construction inside
- is what holds up that I-beam you can see in the center.
- But the rest of the houses, the rest of the garage
- is structurally-- except for holding up that I-beam,
- the rest is structurally bad.
- And although you didn't see in the picture,
- the north side of the garage is pretty well bad.
- They let it deteriorate for the last nine years.
- The lady who had a lack of stake there moved out.
- There were some problems with the three owners deciding
- what to do.
- And so it sat there for nearly 10 years.
- The house and the garage pretty much with no upkeep at all.
- And the neighborhood has been complaining
- about the garage for a long time.
- I've got a lot of complaints since I bought it.
- And having a demolition permit will open up
- the possibilities of what to do with that garage
- or that outbuilding in the future.
- And just the same one, I think the outbuilding
- was built about five years before the house
- for a couple of different reasons.
- So it's in the 1920s.
- It's an outbuilding still.
- Thank you for taking the time to listen.
- Thank you.
- We have questions.
- Do you have any questions?
- Jeremy?
- Clarifying question.
- The demolition is for the garage, not the house.
- Right.
- Thank you.
- OK, are there any questions?
- Duncan?
- So if I heard you right, you're going to resell the house.
- We don't know yet.
- It's taken four months just for me to get the liability
- insurance on the house.
- So I haven't done a lot of stuff on it.
- We have inspected the house for what
- it takes to rehabilitate it.
- And it's unfortunate the house has got major problems.
- But we haven't decided yet on what to do with the house.
- And I'll be quite honest about that.
- I don't know what to do with the house yet.
- But the garage-- the outbuilding has
- been a problem with the neighborhood for a long time.
- People are worried about animals and that and whatnot.
- So I just want to have the option in the next year
- to be able to demolish the outbuilding that
- needs to be done.
- And that's why I've applied for it this time.
- I didn't apply to it until I had my insurance.
- So I knew I had the insurance on it.
- And I had a binder on that.
- But it's taken a while.
- OK, thank you.
- Questions?
- For something like that, are you aware of Bloomington
- restoration, how they would take significant windows
- or any other pieces?
- I do plan on approaching people that I've
- been told that want any of that house before it is done,
- any parts of it, including the lumber.
- Some of the lumber is good.
- Some is not.
- So I do plan on approaching a lot of people
- that would want that stuff and give them a chance to have it.
- That was all I had.
- Thank you.
- No questions.
- Do we have any questions or comments from the public?
- Anybody on the line?
- Nope.
- All right.
- Anybody want to make a motion?
- I'll move to release demolition delay 2507.
- Second.
- Let's talk about it.
- Thoughts?
- OK.
- It's a tough one.
- It's a notable structure.
- I'm fairly new to the commission, so I'll
- be interested in any other comments made by commissioners
- tonight.
- I'm inclined to vote to release this building,
- but I hate to do that.
- I took a look at it.
- I've been past it.
- I made a rough estimate just in my head
- of what would it cost to repair versus build
- a new building of this type.
- And that answer is, like, way too much.
- The proportion of repair costs to new build costs, in my mind,
- is beyond what a contractor with anybody
- would want to do, just non-economic.
- Hate to see it go, but with no one coming forward
- to do something with the building,
- what would you do with the building there?
- I'm going to vote to release.
- Duncan, you have thoughts on this one?
- Well, the reason I ask what I ask is I totally
- understand where the petitioner is coming from,
- and I sympathize with the situation.
- But I always feel like I hate to approve demolitions
- when the owner is acknowledging that they're
- going to release the property, because maybe the next guy who
- buys it wants that building.
- I want to say, I will not demolish that building
- if I'm going to release the property to someone else.
- The demolition permit is a year.
- I get a year from this approval.
- That allows me to have the option,
- if I do release the building to someone-- sell
- the building to someone else, that they have the option
- of doing what it is, but they have the option
- without having to vote for this board again.
- And that's one of the reasons why I'm doing it at this time.
- And I will make a decision before a year is up about what
- we're going to do with it.
- And so that's to provide the most options to both
- for myself or for any other party.
- So it sounds like you're willing to sell it
- with the building still there.
- Yes, unless I get a complaint for condemnation
- because of the quality of it, some neighbor complains,
- and the city comes to me and wants to do something.
- Yes, my plan is to wait right now.
- And it's only a short time.
- I've waited for four months because I didn't have
- an insurance binder until--
- I still don't have it yet, but I know
- I'm going to get it next week.
- So that's basically why.
- This is future news, too.
- Sorry?
- It's future news, which we have no purview over.
- But I know what you're saying.
- No, I'm just making my comment that I
- would be reluctant to approve this pending
- the possibility that somebody might want to use it.
- And I have my own history with this building.
- I used to buy limestone out of there.
- I knew that family.
- And I was familiar with another monument manufacturer
- in Indianapolis.
- I know they did business together.
- I've been in this building several times,
- but when it was active.
- Just one comment.
- It would be great if the manufacturing
- used was grandfathered.
- But it's not.
- It's a residential zone.
- It can't be brought back.
- So people wouldn't be able to manufacture it in Indianapolis.
- Well, but they could use it for their own use.
- That's my only hesitation.
- I understand.
- It's happened before that people come in and say,
- well, it might be that somebody wants to demolish it,
- so I'm going to get the demolition permit now.
- Well, let's wait and see if that person wants to demolish it.
- So that's my quandary.
- And this is one of those where we say,
- we designate it, or we let it go,
- because it's not in a district.
- I have no options.
- Yeah.
- Thoughts, Renard, comments?
- Yeah, I just have a couple of questions,
- and it's really just to get the facts straight in my mind.
- The house is notable.
- Is the garage also--
- The way that it's surveyed, IHSSI,
- Indiana Historic Sites and Structures Inventory,
- there's one site listing that includes
- both buildings.
- Well, that site listing-- here's where it's complicated.
- That site listing for the site is notable.
- And for a site that contains multiple structures that
- are surveyed, there's usually just one survey rating.
- But within the property card, it will
- say how many contributing buildings there are.
- So a site, as many that we see are,
- will be rated as contributing, but will
- have one non-contributing building, which might be a garage.
- This one is listed as having two contributing buildings.
- So that means that the rating of the garage
- would be either contributing or notable.
- I think, yeah, this garage has enough integrity,
- enough historical background that I would consider
- it a notable structure.
- OK.
- You said you would, or would you--
- I would.
- I don't know if Duncan would agree.
- So my second question is, in your staff recommendation,
- it speaks to substantial work required.
- And that's your opinion.
- But for the homeowner, have you done--
- have you gotten any kind of report
- from an engineer, architect, builder,
- as to what it would take to restore this building?
- My contractors will look at it.
- OK, and engineering-wise, they think what we've done.
- And as the other gentleman, Mr. Baker,
- said, the cost of rehabilitating it is substantial.
- Mainly because the whole foundation's
- why it has to be replaced.
- The-- it's complicated situation.
- So it's extremely expensive to rebuild it, OK,
- to making things as it was before.
- And most of-- many of the windows are not--
- everything is repairable, OK, and they have--
- especially because they're wood, and the doors are repairable.
- But you can see, from looking at the windows in the back there,
- how they've sloped downward into the middle.
- So you can see how the foundation has gone there.
- The foundation's gone in the front.
- So yes, I have looked at it.
- It is-- the real problem, and the reason I'm here,
- is because the neighborhood has been worried about that
- for a long time, with what's there, the openings,
- the animals, and whatnot.
- But mainly because I'm concerned right now
- that the city may ask me to--
- somebody may complain about the city may come back.
- Another department may come back and ask
- me to do something with it.
- And I want that option in the next year
- so that I don't have to come back to you,
- and I don't have to come back to them.
- And that's one of the reasons I came here.
- Thank you.
- So I mean, this building, for me,
- is integral to the rating of the structure
- as notable because it was, as the petitioner noted,
- probably there before the house.
- So it was the thing that supported the family.
- It's how they made their living.
- And in some ways, part and parcel, the same thing.
- That said, is it notable enough as for these two
- buildings to landmark it?
- And that's where I don't think I'm willing to go.
- And given that, my path is fairly clear.
- And I would very much like to see this garage and house
- stay and see it get restored.
- But am I willing to take this to the council?
- I don't think I am.
- So we have a motion on the table?
- Yes, we do.
- Does anybody else have any commentary?
- All right.
- And would you remind us what the motion on the table is?
- Yes, the motion is to release the demo delay.
- Call the roll.
- Sure will.
- Daniel Schlabel?
- Yes.
- Sam DeSaller?
- Yes.
- Renard Cross?
- Yes.
- Jack Baker?
- Yes.
- Jeremy Hacker?
- Yes.
- Melanie Duesner?
- Yes.
- Motion to release carries 6-0.
- Thank you for coming in.
- Yeah, you need to read the thing.
- Today regarding the property located at 720 South High Street,
- the Historic Preservation Commission declares
- that it got notice of proposed demolition
- and after today's discussion, sees no need
- to review the plans any further and waives the rest
- of the demolition delay waiting period.
- HPC may later recommend the property for historic designation
- to the Common Council.
- Thank you, sir.
- Unless we have anything we want to address in old business.
- Do we have any feedback from either Willow Terrace
- or the sidewalks or any progress on those fronts?
- Well, I will say there was one violation
- that I brought up where a couple of original screen
- doors had been removed from a house in the near west side.
- Those have since been put back.
- They've been painted, but that's not something
- we review for that district.
- Willow Terrace, we checked in with the regional distributor
- for the tile.
- They have not received an order.
- They sent out samples late last year.
- Just jot my memories to the issue with the tile again.
- Well, the issue in the first place
- was that it had been removed without the COA.
- Right, which property was it?
- This was for Willow Terrace apartment building on Fess.
- Next to the restaurant.
- Is that the one where they said it's
- going to take 10 months for the tile to come?
- Six.
- Six months?
- Yes.
- And you're telling-- but my understanding
- was that the tile was ordered, but it would
- take six months to get here.
- Are you saying--
- They said that they had gotten an estimate for six months.
- So this gets a little complicated
- because we have given them a COA to replace
- the roof with this tile.
- And that COA gives them a discrete amount
- of time to deal with it.
- So until that time runs out--
- OK.
- I don't see that we have recourse.
- OK, so keep it going.
- Yeah, I think that's right.
- We are, however, putting together a case file
- so that we can be sure we are documenting
- all of the steps that have been taken in the communication
- so that we'll have that track record in the file
- if indeed the tiles don't go up by the time the COA is expired,
- which hopefully they will.
- Thank you.
- So nothing further on the historic pioneer sidewalk
- from the city?
- The historic sidewalk, that's going
- to have to be a conversation between hand and building
- an engineering department to come up with plans
- for some options we can do with that.
- One of the issues there now that those stones have been moved
- is accessibility for people who are visually impaired,
- where there's the accessibility issue about being
- able to walk on them, which right now they're not really
- set where anyone can walk on them.
- There's that issue.
- There's also the issue of if they were to be moved back
- to where they were taken from, that would,
- to my understanding, be an impairment or an impediment
- for people who are visually impaired,
- might not be aware that they're coming on to pavers that
- are set differently.
- So we're going to have to come up with some other plans
- and present those to the commission.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- I'm not quite clear why this is a hand issue all of a sudden
- and not a preservation commission issue.
- Don't we have purview over what happens to that sidewalk?
- You will.
- You do.
- We do now.
- And so you just said, I thought that hand
- would give us some options.
- We're talking about the IU property.
- Yes.
- It's actually not subject to the Historic Preservation Commission.
- There's sovereignty of law.
- And I'm sure that you can speak to that.
- Unfortunately, when it's IU property, a state home,
- it is excluded from an HPC's purview.
- It was designated.
- It wasn't designated before they formed it.
- My understanding, the interpretation
- from the legal department is that it is exempt from your purview.
- Because it's owned by the university.
- And it is, which is state owned.
- So hold on, I'll find the reference.
- There's an ownership of a designated property
- eliminated from purview simply by--
- It's the state likes to pass regulations,
- but doesn't always like to apply them to itself.
- And so there is language in the state code
- that says under the law of sovereign immunity
- that the state does not have to follow local ordinances and rules.
- And so in this instance, it's a state owned building.
- And they do have to comply with federal ADA and the accessibility
- requirements, but they don't necessarily
- have to follow our historic preservation requirements.
- And they own the sidewalk in front of their building?
- The person that owns the building is responsible for the sidewalk
- in front of their building.
- Well, I'm responsible for my sidewalk, too, but I don't own it.
- Isn't there a difference?
- Is the sidewalk city owned?
- My understanding was that the owner of the sidewalk--
- or the owner of the property was responsible for the sidewalk
- in front of them, even though it is a right of way.
- But what you're saying is ownership and responsibility
- are two very separate things.
- We can dig into it some more.
- I think we've been talking about it in our department,
- and that's what we come up to in terms of the responsibility
- and our ability to enforce with the university.
- And I think we're at the point now where
- we're going to try and get a resolution that may not
- have to do with who's responsible or who's at fault,
- but how we move forward to really try and make sure
- that we keep our history intact in a way that's
- a little bit more collaborative and finger-pointing.
- Yeah, this came up when the designation happened.
- It was quite a bit of discussion about who owned it.
- OK, I'm happy to look back into that, Duncan.
- Thank you for bringing that up.
- Saying that the university suddenly
- owns their sidewalk, that--
- No, but the adjacent property owner,
- they are responsible for the maintenance of that sidewalk.
- And unfortunately, they received a lot of ADA complaints.
- So they do have a responsibility to comply with that,
- whereas this is a little bit of gray area.
- Yeah, and at that point where they
- were getting complaints about ADA accessibility,
- the HPC did offer them some options
- that both retained the historic sidewalk
- and allowed for an accessible route.
- So there's-- I hear what you're saying,
- but I also think somebody-- there
- was a big miscommunication somewhere.
- And it would be lovely if we could
- get that rectified in some way.
- End of the old business?
- Unless there's any further discussion of old business
- or violations.
- Some of you attended the first historic district subcommittee
- meeting.
- I don't know if you want to take it away, Sam, but--
- It was actually fairly well attended.
- And it turned less into--
- I was actually hoping that the first meeting would be like,
- what is the duty?
- What is the purpose of this subcommittee?
- But one of the basically understood duties
- of the subcommittee was to review neighborhood guideline
- submissions.
- And we spent a good chunk of the time
- reviewing neighborhood guideline submissions.
- So we kicked it back to the--
- there were some additional neighbors that came to that
- meeting and wanted to have some more input on the guidelines.
- And they successfully negotiated for an extension of 90 days.
- And we gave them our feedback on the guidelines to date.
- And I think we'll be seeing those back in the summer.
- I think that's where we are.
- I think Renard, and Duncan, and Jeremy were also there.
- You have?
- Oh, and Karen, sorry, my bad.
- That's all right, I was late.
- Oh, there are a lot of people.
- Oh, yeah, you were gone.
- Sorry, because we had it at--
- Daniel very kindly offered us in space.
- So thank you, it's a good room to have stuff in.
- It was a good meeting.
- Yeah.
- Good discussion with those other neighbors.
- I missed the beginning of it, so did they
- come in with a little bit of an aggressive attitude?
- Oh, really?
- No.
- No?
- OK.
- I thought they were very respectful, but they were--
- I just wondered.
- They wanted to be a part of the process,
- and there was some mea culpa there
- because the process had been going on for some time,
- and they hadn't heard anything from them.
- But they're like, yeah, but can we talk?
- Yeah.
- Yeah, I thought that was good.
- Hopefully, in the next one, we'll
- talk about what else we want to incorporate
- into those subcommittee meetings when we're not
- doing guideline review.
- Are you seeing these as like a regular--
- something we should do, like quarterly,
- or put on a regular schedule, or just on demand, or--
- right now, they are on the books for every first Thursday
- of the month at the Monroe County History Center at--
- what time is this?
- 4.
- 4 o'clock.
- Every month.
- So if you can come, great.
- If you can't come, that's fine.
- But we're going to be having them and noticing them,
- because we have at least three voting commissioners probably
- showing up, so we've got to notice them anyway.
- So they will be public meetings.
- Good.
- Comments?
- Jeremy.
- Well, if we're done with this, I have a question.
- So the mill, the wall, that's--
- could staff kind of brief us on what's going on with that?
- I probably should do it.
- OK.
- I'm the executive director of the RBC, and it's RBC-owned.
- So unfortunately, the wall's integrity is compromised.
- It is as much as 4 and 1/2 inches out of plumb.
- We're not exactly sure how that happened.
- It probably is a result of hurt of the remodel that took place,
- but we're not exactly sure.
- So at this point, it is unsafe for anyone
- to be within 20 feet of the wall.
- We had to take some emergency measures and put some initial shoring up,
- just to stabilize.
- Yes.
- And this is the south wall, south exterior wall?
- Yeah.
- And so it's adjacent to the event space.
- So unfortunately, that occurred.
- We're in the process of getting beds.
- We're very much aware of the fact that it needs to come through the HPC.
- So we prepped a COA, but we just don't know what we're asking for quite yet.
- So we've got a structural engineer involved.
- But I have a feeling we'll be seeing you very soon to discuss this.
- So that's all I can really say at this time, but it's something that we had to do.
- But this wasn't something that was apparent at building close out
- on the renovation project.
- No, it was not.
- It was not.
- And so the mortar is compromised in between the brick units.
- So there are loose bricks where some-- especially at the top.
- It is possible that the 20-foot distance required at this point
- may be reduced with the shoring.
- But we're waiting for documentation from a structural engineer to say so.
- But we're hoping to get this repaired as soon as possible.
- As part of this, I might suggest it might be worth getting said engineer
- to look at the rest of the building.
- I absolutely have already said that.
- We need to look at the entire structure, make sure
- that every building works together.
- We can't just put a Band-Aid on one particular repair.
- So yes, we are.
- Great.
- Thank you.
- Yeah, we're sorry that it happened.
- So great.
- Any other comments, questions?
- Thank you.
- I think one sort of procedural nugget I want to try to work out,
- and it has to do with most violations and subsequent certificates
- of appropriateness, because one of the things
- that we're running into on Willow Terrace is we gave them a COA.
- And they've now got, what, two years to complete it or squander.
- And in some cases, that's not a great amount of time.
- And in a case like the one we just saw before us,
- how is there a way to handle a notice of violation without a COA?
- Or is that appropriate?
- Well, there's another option for restoring the building back
- to how it was prior to the violation.
- So that's within the purview or the power of the HBCE, too.
- Basically, put it back the way you found it.
- And in the past, we've done some--
- I believe we set some deadlines for some of those, like 60-day windows.
- OK.
- So I might argue that instead of issuing a COA
- for some of these violations, we just asked them to correct them.
- Like I said, there was one of the previously outstanding ones
- that has been restored, but that didn't come to HBCE yet.
- I found out later when I asked for follow-up and then drove by the joint.
- Any other thoughts on that one?
- No, I mean, what's tricky is when you don't necessarily
- want them to put it back the way it was, or they can't put it back
- the way it was.
- Windows, people, they go in the dumpster faster than you can breathe.
- It's very rare for somebody to save them,
- especially if they're convinced that they're no good, which is why they're
- supposed to come in first.
- I mean, that one with those windows and those transoms, that's just a tragedy.
- I'm sorry.
- And I don't have a whole lot of sympathy with the people that did it.
- But if we can order it, put it back, that's a load.
- That's replica wood windows, new replica wood windows, at the least,
- not to mention the labor.
- >> They lived in that neighborhood for 25 years, he said.
- So they were there through the whole process.
- They were there for the national register thing, if they paid any attention.
- Plus, they get postcards every year reminding them,
- you live in an historic district, be sure to contact us.
- >> I get mine. There are certain property owners that own quite a number of houses
- in historic districts and certain property management companies are acquiring
- a number of properties in historic districts and need to train them up.
- >> All right.
- >> Keep them accountable.
- >> Well, thanks all for coming in.
- There's nothing else. You should all adjourn.
- (orchestral music)