It is 5 o'clock. I would like to call the Thursday, August 14, 2025 Bloomington Historic Preservation Commission meeting to order. Please call the roll, please. Elizabeth Mitchell? Ernesto Castaneda? Here. Daniel Schlegel? Here. Sam DeSaller? Here. Raynard Cross? Jack Baker? Here. Jeremy Hackard? Here. Melody Duesner?
 Here. Duncan Campbell? Here. Karen Duffy? Here. Yes, we do. We have quorum. All right. Are there any comments on the minutes? I have two comments. Jeremy? The first one would be on page, I believe, eight, where Christopher Baum had
 uh, spoken about a, uh, issue that he was, uh, interested in. I think the notes need to be revised slightly to make it clear that Mr. Sturbaum was advocating for all of these things. It looks like maybe the commission was agreeing with some of what was said, and it's more of... This is what Christopher Sturbaum said. Yes, it needs to reflect that a little bit better, just to avoid any sort of, um, confusion. And then, also on page 11,
 This has to do with COA 2541. At the end of that paragraph it says that the petitioner had clarified the placement of where the new windows were going and then Sam says okay we have verbal commitment but we don't say what they are. Can we go back and put those actual verbal things into the minutes just so it's very clear what we're talking about?
 There was also one on trim, right? Trim size? Or is that verbal commitment on trim size? Yes, it's everything right there of where the new windows are going and the trim size. It's the last two sentences of that paragraph. So if we can confirm exactly where those are via the recording. Just so it's very clear to everybody what was talked about.
 We move to approve with those amendments. I move to approve those amendments. Do I have a second? I second that. All right. Can you call the roll for your name? OK. Ernesto Castaneda? Yes. Daniel Schlegel? I wasn't here so I'll abstain. Same to Soller? Yes. Jack Baker? I wasn't here so I'll abstain.
 Jeremy Hacker? Yes. Melody Duesner? Yes. OK, motion carries, 4-0-2. All right, one moment.
 All right, for each item, the Historic Preservation Program Manager will first present a staff report. We'll then hear if the petitioner has any additional information, followed by a round of questions from each commissioner. I ask that petitioners, the public, and commissioners refrain from speaking until addressed by the chair, unless the question is directly addressed to them. If a member of the public or petitioner wishes to comment, please raise your hand until recognized by the chair.
 Once a motion is made, we will then open up a discussion of the item for members of the commission only. We encourage all commissioners, petitioners, and members of the public to be civil and respectful at all times. Thanks. So we're going to start off today with staff approvals, items that have been approved by myself for this meeting.
 The first one of these is COA 2544, address 211 East Gilbert Drive in the Matlock Heights Historic District. Petitioner is Adam Will. This is a 1953 ranch house. Built in 1953, 211 East Gilbert is a minimal limestone ranch in the Matlock Heights Historic District. The owners are requesting an installation of solar panels on the street-facing roof and the in-kind replacement of the asphalt shingling.
 The request has written, we are seeking approval to replace our current asphalt roof with a new asphalt roof in order to ensure attic health, create air flow, and reduce moisture. This may also involve the installation of ridge vents. Current material asphalt, material seeking asphalt, solar panel installation. Additionally, we are seeking approval to place approximately 20 solar panels on the south side of the roof in support of the city's green energy improvement program.
 Green Home Improvement Program and ensure sustainable energy consumption. This request is for approximately 20 new solar panels. Staff approved COA 2544. The work proposed includes the replacement of in-kind of the existing roof material and the placement of rooftop solar panels at or close to the pitch of the roof. Thank you.
 If that petitioner is here, you are good to go. So you're going to be camped. Yeah, legally, you just are supposed to attend. If it's staff approved. Not that you're going to be here again, but you're good. Next staff approval item, COA 2546. This is 213 South Rogers, the Frosted Food Building. Petitioner is Ben Swanson.
 This is a notable individually listed property, a 1927 sheet metal and auto repair shop. It was designated in 1995 as part of a grant application. Recently, trespassers have been sleeping and lighting fires in a rear facing alley, sorry, a rear alley facing Alcove on the east end of the building. The petitioners are requesting to install a chain link fence full height to keep out trespassers
 who may damage the building. You can see right-hand side of the building, sort of the north end of the east elevation. That's where the alcove I'm about to show you is. Petition originally called for barbed wire. That's no longer part of the petition. To fill the width of this alcove on the side of the building. You can see here where
 There's been some trespassing and damage. Staff approved COA 2546. Unfortunately, this downtown alley facing Alco provides an attractive location for camping and without permanent measures to protect the building, trespassing may continue along with the hazard of fires and other damage to the building. Although visible from the public right of way, this is the little trafficked alleyway and visibility from the street is minimal.
 Proposed chain link fence is not out of keeping with the site's industrial setting, and historic materials would not be removed or damaged by this proposal. Again, if the petitioner is present, you are approved, and you may begin. COA 2547, address is 902 South Rogers Street in the McDowell Historic District. Petitioner is Harmony Jankowski.
 This is a 1945 colonial revival house with a side porch and balcony and front gabled portico. The request is twofold. We would like to add solar panels to our roof. Please see the mock-up and description in our email thread with West from Atomic Energy. And we would like to change our existing roofing material from asphalt shingle to a standing seam metal roof
 in approximately the same color gray as the current roof and not reflective. There will be no changes to the roof line. You see this will be along the, the solar panels will be installed I believe along the eastern side of the roof facing the street. Staff approved COA 2547. This proposal calls for the replacement of the roofing material with a material that is considered
 appropriate by district guidelines and would not change the pitch of the roof. The solar panel installation plan would place the array close to the level of the roof pitch. Moving on to our first commission reviewed item. This is COA 2543. Sorry you guys are jumping all over the packet.
 This is Jaime Galvan for 324 South Roger Street in the Prospect Hill Historic District. I believe the petitioner is with us. 324 South Roger Street is a turn of the century two-story free classical house designed by Bloomington architect John Nichols. In 2019, the Bloomington Historic Preservation Commission approved the removal of aluminum siding and the addition of a
 balcony on the North Gable with the condition of staff approval prior to the removal of any decorative detail that may be found under the aluminum siding. The work proposed in COA 1948 had not yet been undertaken and the COA expired in two years in October 2021. Work approved in an earlier 2019 application included the addition of a shed dormer on the West elevation and several subtubes that had been completed, however.
 In November 2024, the house was damaged in a fire causing substantial damage to the interior as well as windows, doors and siding. Since receiving a COA in April of 2025, the petitioner has been working to repair damage and restore the siding to a more faithful appearance based on the uncovered wood siding along with the addition of the proposed balcony. This subsequent request is to rebuild and
 expand the rear mud room into a dining room and to add limestone foundation walls removing the cistern beneath the mud room. This would add approximately 150 square feet to the house. Window and door configuration to reimage current configuration with update to the existing configuration. You can see here
 Yellow indicates the size of the current rear addition and the area outlined in red on the rear of the building would be an expansion. The colors to remain is current white. This proposal also includes the addition of a shed dormer on the south side of the house with
 Single to double window and trim to match home style. The house foundation will be faced in limestone with windows and doors to be replaced with wood or aluminum clad. Siding replacement will be LP to match the home. Windows, doors, and replacement style to mimic the original style. New edition siding will be LP wood board siding. Windows and doors to be wood or clad. Steve, do you have anything to add?
 Thank you. Staff recommends approval of COA 2543. The rear addition proposed would not overwhelm the house on scale and retain some features of the existing rear addition, including fenestration patterns and height while adding historically appropriate elements, including rough cut limestone foundation and a proposed door which would match the appearance of the home's two third light front door.
 The dormer proposed on the south elevation would not substantially alter the overall profile of the pyramidal roof and would not be out of place on a free classical house. It is modest in scale and similar in appearance to a previously added rear dormer. The LP siding and wood windows and doors would be appropriate materials.
 Want to go in questions? Sorry, my bad. Jack, any questions? No questions. Jeremy? No. Zoe? I have a couple of questions. So if you go, OK, that drawing right there, the upper right-hand corner, there's a line in the middle of the addition. You have those four windows and then a line.
 And then that last window, is that line intentional, or is that just a glitch in the? No, that line. So in that particular right there? Yeah, the upper right. The upper right. They have four windows in a line, then the back. What's that line mean? That is from the? Because you look in plan, and it's like planar, as far as I can tell. Yeah, I think it's a glitch. OK.
 And then the only other question I had was if you go to the plans, the site plans. So you've got a little red box around the garage. Is anything happening to the garage? Oh, no. So that was from one of the original request COAs back in 2019?
 The proposed on that one was to stabilize the garage from degrade and put in a foundation stone or limestone foundation on that. And that's where that red block came from. Gotcha. Thank you. Does the public have questions? Right. Sorry. Public questions? Comments? Anybody online?
 Questions, comments? Hearing none, I'll open it up. I'll move to approve COA 2543. I'll second. All right, let's discuss. Comments, Jack? No, I agree with the recommendations, so I'll give them a staff. Jeremy? Melody? Karen? You seem to be very thoughtful. Modifications to me. Daniel?
 I can't believe she said all. Duncan? Third. Third. Fourth. Fourth. Fifth. Shall we call the roll? OK. Ernesto Castaneda? Yes. Daniel Schlegel? Yes. Sam DeSaller? Yes. Jack Baker? Yes. Jeremy Hackard? Yes. Melody Dusner? Yes. Motion carries six.
 Thank you for coming in and thank you for taking care of this house. We really appreciate it. Thank you, Stan. Thank you. All right, moving on to the next item. Yes. Parlor doughnuts. Is the petitioner present? Is the petitioner present for this item?
 Is this picture online? Which COA is it? This is Parler Douglas. 2545, Parler Douglas. Yes, the petitioner is online. OK, great. Thank you. This address is located at 322 East Kirkwood Avenue, Kirkwood Manor, which is an individually listed historic district.
 In June 2025, a proposal for the installation of an LED backlit sign at this location was denied by the Bloomington Preservation Commission. A new request has been submitted for the installation of two aluminum signs. The one mounted over the door will be lit with a goose neck light, similar to those installed elsewhere on the building. The request is for the installation of a post-mounted 30-inch diameter aluminum sign on an existing post on the patio.
 on the installation of a 90 inch by 20.5 inch aluminum sign over the second story side entrance to be lit with a goose neck light overhead. Now, I'm not going to change my recommendation at this point, but I will say having spoken with the planning department, the sign that's proposed, the standing sign proposed here is in the public right of way.
 that would go against the unified development ordinance so it's worth considering whether the commission would want a condition want to vote for conditional approval of the sign over the door which i have not heard would raise any issues with the udio um but onto staff recommendations um staff recommends approval of coa 2545 the new signs proposed are
 similar in scale to existing and historic signs on the building and would be installed in such a way that would not damage or obscure historic features. The material and lighting proposed are more appropriate for the building than the previous proposal, making reference to existing features and not conflicting visually. It should be noted, however, okay, I did write this, that the standing sign would be located in the public right of way
 which may lead to a conflict with the unified development ordinance. Does the petitioner have anything to add? Are they muted? No. Thank you. Thank you. Questions? Jack? Well, since it's in the public right of way, it's not really sort of a question.
 Since it's in the public right of way, we have to really consider that, don't we? I'm inclined to make exception to that. And so no questions really here. I'll get back when we get to you. Thank you. Ben, I'm sorry, do you have any questions? If we approve this as is, would planning have the ability to then come in and say, well, that sign isn't appropriate? Yeah, hey, so this is Eric, Rilley Development Services.
 So we cannot allow private signs in the public right away. That's a bigger legal issue. So there's not a variance of path that they can't put in there. So we just can't approve that sign in the right away at all, no matter what. Yeah. OK. Thank you. Good to know. Thank you. Can we split off the vote on the sign? I think that is my question. OK, thank you. OK, moved. Move the sign back.
 If they want a different sign, they can come back and say, we want a different sign. But yeah. Karen, you have questions? Just a confirmation. I know there's a boost neck light. So these panels are no longer backlit from within. That is the plan. And are the letters still blue or are they black? I can't remember. It's very, very dark blue. Pardon?
 Very dark blue, as far as I can tell. OK. Thank you. That's all. Daniel? My question's been asked, so I don't know if that's OK. Duncan? Do we know how far into the right of way this sign is? Right. Because the way it's shown here, it's right on the edge of their flower bed.
 which the inside edge of their flower bed, which I'm going to assume, based on what the city has said, that that flower bed is in the right of way. So where's the property line versus where's the side? Yeah. My question, I mean, was about where is this right of way zone? Is the patio, tables and chairs part of the right of way? And if it is?
 Why can't they put a sign up there? Well, not in the right way. That's what I'm saying. Is the table, the dining area, furniture, as part of the right-of-way? We might ask the petitioner. They might know where their property is. Does the petitioner actually know where the property line is relative to the proposed sign, the round one? I am not 100% certain on that. I was under the impression that patio was
 part of their property and not in the right of way. So I'll have to investigate that further. All right. Thank you. I guess question for planning. If that were the case, can they have the sign as it's proposed? I think planning has something to say.
 Yeah, hey, so Eric Hoolig again with the planning department. So the right-of-way line goes almost up to the front of the building. So most, if not all, of that decking area is in the right-of-way. And so the other complication is the building is not set back 15 feet from the right-of-way, so it would not even be allowed a freestanding sign. So there are two challenges with a freestanding sign along that particular frontage. Yeah, very helpful. Thank you. Thank you, Eric.
 Mm-hmm. Do you have additional questions, Karen? I don't understand why SOMA can have a sign. That was grandfathered in. Oh. Yeah. UDO changed on it. OK. And Patio's grandfathered also. I imagine. Well, you can also get a variance for these kind of things, but hard to say. They're not asking us. We're not answering. You can get a variance for the sign, except that they're saying there's no more.
 We're not doing that anymore, but. Yeah, but it's interesting to see that patio really activates that corner. And you know, the sign is what it is. All right. Any comments or questions from the public on this item? Online? Nothing online? I don't see anything. I will entertain a motion.
 to approve with the exception of the post sign that's in the right of way. Do I hear a second? I'll second. Any additional commentary? I don't see any choice. Yeah. I don't know where we are. I appreciate the changes made to this version of the building sign. OK. All right. Call the roll. Do I have a second?
 Can we have a seconder? OK. Ernesto Castaneda? Yes. Daniel Schlegel? Yes. Sam DeSaller? Yes. Jack Baker? Yes. Jeremy Hacker? Yes. Melody Dusner? Yes. Motion's approved 6-0. Thank you for coming in. Thank you.
 Next item on our agenda, 522 West 13th Street in the Maple Heights Historic District. Petitioner is Terry Usery. All right, Terry's here, cool. Thanks, Josh. This is 522 West 13th Street was a one-story L-Plan College cottage with a polygonal L.
 and folk Victorian details. Several additions have been added over the years, including a second story in the early 2000s with elaborate spindle work giving the building the impression of a Queen Anne house. A picket fence runs along 13th Street, fronting a large side yard. The request received from the petitioner, I propose to construct an approximately 25 meter, 82 foot long fence running east west along 13th and Jackson.
 There was an aging picket fence at this location which had fallen into disrepair, pickets falling off. Several fence posts had rotted off at the ground level. It was literally falling apart. I had removed and disposed of the previous fence and now proposed to replace it. I wished to depart from the original style of vertical pickets, choosing to replace the old now removed fence with a 1.25 meter, four foot high wooden framework incorporating
 welded wire, four gauge galvanized steel panels, commonly called cattle panels. The cattle panels I plan to use feature a 10 centimeter, four inch square grid. Materials to be used at fence construction, 10, 10 by 10 centimeter treated fence posts, each two meters in length. 30, five by 10 centimeter treated lumber posts, each eight feet in length.
 30 2.5 by 10 cm treated posts, each 2.5 meters in length, ripped to one and a half inches, and five 4.9 by 1.2 meter cattle panels, various exterior grade screws, fasteners, as well as painter's stain. Staff recommends approval of COA 2548. The height and materials of the new fence proposed meet district guidelines.
 The combination of wood and wire fence proposed would reach four feet in height and would not obscure a front facade. The petitioner is present. Do you have any comments you'd like to add? No, probably not. Thank you. Questions from the commission, Jack? If you could go back to the picture again of the fence, I think somebody's probably going to vote.
 It looks like there's a dog leg in the fence. Is that what it is, just a slight offset? I couldn't tell if it was double width for some reason. That was a stock photo. It's just an illustration of what I propose, a style of building the fence. And there would be no such thing. It would be one straight line. Thank you. No more questions. Do you have any questions? No. Questions, questions?
 Questions? Do we have anything from the neighborhood? I have not heard from the neighborhood on this. All right. And that just goes the front elevation and stops. It doesn't take back to the side? Correct. It's just one line from the corner of the house, basically, to my neighbor's property corner. Gotcha. Thank you. Do we have anything from the public or anybody online?
 Sounds like we do have a public comment. All right. You're unmuted. Hello, my name is Gabriel Holgoff. First, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Thank you. I'm speaking as a member of the public. I live immediately to the east of Mr. Esther's property. And I just want to say that this fence feels to me to be appropriate for the historic character of our neighborhood.
 And I encourage the commission to approve the COA. Thank you very much. I appreciate the comment. All right. Do we have a motion? I'll make a motion to approve COA 2548. Do I have a second? Jeremy? Thank you. Let's talk about it. Comments, Jack? No. No comments. Jeremy?
 Seems to meet the revised guidelines. Really? Karen? Peniel? Seems like it meets everything well. The neighbor's happy. It's all good. Yeah, that's awesome. All good. Let's go. Let's call the roll. OK. Ernesto Castaneda? Yes. Daniel Schlegel? Yes. Sam DeSaller? Yes. Jack Baker? Yes. Jeremy Hacker? Yes. Melody Duesner? Yes.
 Motion carries 6-0. Thank you for coming in. Thank you very much. All right, next item. This is COA 2549, 516 South Highland in the Elm Heights Historic District. Petitioner is Eleanor Okada. Is the petitioner online or present? She's online. Thank you, Eddie. OK.
 Built in 1917, 516 South Highland is a free classical four square house with replacement windows, but otherwise many original features. The front vestibule has three wooden doors and exterior three quarters screen door, a two third front door and a third door leading into the house. The petitioner's request, I would like to replace a wood screen door with the new storm door. The current door will only close if I hook it closed from the inside.
 The new storm door will be able to close in addition to having a keyed lock. I hope to keep out most of the winter drafts from the house. See here the proposed style of replacement door. We've aluminum frame, full height window, as well as pictures of
 The screen door and you can see where it is sort of in relation to the other front doors. Staff does not recommend approval of COA 2549. While the proposed replacement door would meet district guidelines for the design of new storm doors, district guidelines do not recommend the removal and replacement of existing historical features. The wood screen door appears to be close in age to the house and a new lock and glass window could be installed in the existing screen door to help meet the petitioner's needs.
 without the removal of the screen door. Does the petitioner have anything that she would like to add or say? Well, I wonder, can you hear me? Yes. Yes, we can. Thank you. OK. If you could suggest someone who could do that. I was given a name of one person, and I tried to email them. I haven't heard back who could put glass in. But then there's also a question of whether or not that screen door can support glass.
 So if I could get any help on how to do what you're asking me to do. I think we can help. I think, yeah, I know some people, I'll give you a list, but we'll get there. And hopefully not too expensive. And just, I did, this is many years ago, I did put in a request, but then when I found out the expense of a door, which was just a regular storm door,
 It was approved, but then I didn't go ahead with it. But I'm at the point where I really want to stop the drafts from coming into the house. Gotcha. Thank you. Questions? Jack? Well, I wonder if the petitioner has explored it with the glass companies, or at least
 Two glass companies in town, there's City Glass, there's Thxton Glass. I wonder if she has had them either come out and look at it or have somebody take the door off and run it out and have it looked at. It appears to me that it could support glass. I wouldn't worry about that. It's just how thick it is, and that's certainly how easy it would be to put a glass in it. So I just wonder if those are certainly. So what did you, what did you, Thxton and who's the other? I think it's City Glass. City Glass.
 City glass? OK. Yeah, it's up on 17th Street. Yeah. Yeah, OK. And Thxton's down south beyond the nursery. And is there, do you know if anybody who works with doors, because this door is warped, so it won't close unless I hook it. And it's still not in the frame completely. I think we might have some folks that won't be willing to address that.
 So we will get to that on down the line. Jeremy, you have questions? No questions. Melody? No questions. Daniel? Duncan? So do we know this is an original piece here? You know, I was asked that by the Elm Heights Preservation Committee, and I don't know.
 I think it's close, but it may or may not be. I mean, it looks like it probably is. Yeah. Well, I don't want to get into the weeds on the repair and all that, because until somebody looks at it more carefully, I don't
 My my concern is that that's going to have to be a tempered piece of glass at that size may need some additional structure in the door, which point you're going to get into. Other other cross pieces or and make it stretch the sound of glass. I wouldn't be able to replace it with a wooden door. Is that what you're saying? That's not it. No, that's not what we're saying. What we're saying is.
 You got to have somebody look at it and see if it can support glass. And we go from there. I live about three blocks from where you are. I have three wooden doors that have replaceable screens and replaceable windows. So I know what you want. And I have some people that you can talk to. But I think our concern is that you're proposing replacing
 a material with a different material. And that's kind of where we are at the moment. But we have some people to talk to in the meantime. Has that train of thought changed over the years? Because it was approved several years ago, like maybe 12 years ago when it didn't do it. Have you just changed how you approve? 12 years ago, that was before the current Elm Heights Historic District guidelines were approved.
 I think they're 11 years old, so that's right before. Wow. That's interesting. Did they turn anything into you as far as approval or not? No. I remember when you sent this to me, you mentioned that you had reached out to them. I subsequently sent them an email.
 saying that you had told me that you'd reached out and asking if there's any comment, and I had not heard back. OK. I'll get in touch with them, too. OK. Because that was a summon. Someone on that committee suggested a person that I call as far as glassing the door. OK. But that person never replied to me, so. Let's see what we can do. Ernest, do you have comments? Yeah. Great. If you could send me a list of questions.
 No question. Or I'm going to come and look at your door too. OK. Yeah. I'm happy to have that happen. I think at this point, we're entertaining motions. I think we have to recommend denial. I will move to deny COA 2549. All right. Do I have a second? Second. Let's call the roll.
 Oh, my bad, comments. Jack, comments. I think we've said it. We're not absolutely sure it's an original door, but it certainly looks like it, and it's worth pursuing, I think, putting a glass panel in it. I think if I had to, I could come up with a couple of names that people that would work on and give it a look. And just judged on my limited carpentry experience, I would think
 It could be done. I feel fairly confident. You probably have to add a hinge or two or swap out the hinges. Yeah, I'd put on a lock set. Jeremy? No comments. My only comment is you are welcome to come over, look at my screen doors. Noah will give you my contact information.
 And I will have a list of people, but not only built micro screen doors, but I think that could look at your existing screen door and probably sort it out. So I mean, we don't want you to stop you doing what you want to do, but we want to keep this neighborhood up to the guidelines standard. So give me a shout when this is over and we'll figure something out. OK, thank you. All right, thank you for coming in.
 We got to do a vote. Call the roll. Melody Duesner? The motion is to deny. Make up your mind. Of course you call me first. Yes. How are you? Jeremy Hackett? Yes. Jack Baker? Yes. Sam Nassau? Yes. Daniel Schlegel? Yes. Ernesto Castaneda? Yes.
 Okay, motion to deny carries six zero. All right, thank you for coming in and please get in contact with Noah and we'll figure something out. Okay, thanks. Okay, big ticket item. Next up we have COA 2550. Is the petitioner here? Is the petitioner, yep. There's two people in the waiting room.
 We have a lot going on. I just want to make sure in case it's a petitioner or comment. I just wanted to make sure. Yes, thank you. Thank you. Sorry. I think you might have to do it, Eddie. OK, awesome. Thank you. Next item, COA 2550, 206 North Walnut in the Courthouse Square Historic District. Petitioner is Joshua Brownell.
 In June 2025, work began on the restoration of the upper story of the terracotta facade on the Princess Theater following the approval of COA 2533. During the course of work, the applicants have determined that the existing second story windows are in poor condition and may need to be replaced with a four inch reduction in width to accommodate mechanisms and prevent jamming. The request
 This proposal is intended to secure a secondary certificate of appropriateness for the restoration of the terracotta cladding on the facade of 206 North Walnut Street in the Cordell Square Historic District in Bloomington, Indiana. This property is historically known as the Princess Theater. The proposed work description is based on reported findings of the structural engineers report from RC Engineers, which is ongoing based on this report, our scope of work,
 is listed as the following, but also subject to continuing consultation with RC engineers. The need to deconstruct the facade and structural masonry to the lintel above the windows has led us to remove the existing windows on the second story of the building. The windows are considered to be a defining characteristic of the historic facade. In order to reinstall replicated windows that can be functional,
 we've decided to rebuild each window and install a counterweight or spring mechanism to allow the sashes to operate within code. In order to allow for a properly functioning mechanism, we will need to reduce the size of each window approximately four inches in width. The remaining portion of the replication process will include keeping the windows to the same historic profile and design. The details of this proposal have been approved by Steve Wyatt and Duncan Campbell.
 who have understood the necessity of alterations in our desire to match the existing architectural integrity to the best of our available methods. Careful removal of each of the six windows and salvage of the trim molding sashes or components that we were able to. It has been determined and agreed that a majority of the components are no longer salvageable and are in need of historically accurate replication.
 Once you receive the final drawings from the engineers outlining the minimum dimensions of the new structural masonry, we can use the new rough opening size to replicate the windows to the exact size that we need. Reduction in size of the windows is to be kept to an absolute minimum to allow proper function of sash mobility mechanisms. We have identified the wood used for the original windows to be Douglas fir, and we will use the same species to replicate the window.
 possibly using treated pine PVC composite and sheet metal flashing for waterproofing components that will not be visible in the final appearance of the facade. The plasters between each window are to be recreated using reinforced CMU block to allow for structurally sound wall, which the original terracotta facade may be anchored to. In conjunction with his work description, we also provided a proposed material list
 for the full scope of the project. Nature of the proposal. The proposal is intended to secure this list of materials. Douglas fir, the species of wood, is to be used to recreate the frame of the windows and the sashes. Single pane, three inch width, non-tempered glass. We will attempt to reserve the existing glass panes and cut them to fit the newly fabricated sashes. Cast iron, counterbalance weight sashes.
 The functioning stashes will be installed with a counterbalance weight comprised of cast iron and threaded steel cable of 530 seconds of an inch over steel pulley. The system will be housed in the newly fabricated window frames. PVC composite, coil sheet metal, rubberized rolled flashing polyurethane sealant. These materials will be used to create water mitigation systems and flash the window openings against water, ice, wind, and air.
 Staff recommends approval of COA 2550. The proposed replacement windows would be of a slightly smaller size than the originals in order to accommodate seasonal changes in warping and to slow further degradation. Otherwise, this proposal calls for the faithful reproduction of windows that have deteriorated to the point where not much can be salvaged. Does the petitioner have anything you'd like to add?
 All right, questions? Yeah, for clarity, each window basically loses four inches total overall side to side. And the spacing between windows would gain a little width or stay the same? The structural spacing would stay what it is. That void that's left would be where the encounter mechanisms
 that will be trimmed out in a wood that's getting matched to the color of the terracotta facades. Okay, thank you. That's all I have. Do you have any questions? No. No other questions? No. Karen, Daniel, Duncan? No. I think I'll save mine for comments.
 Do we have any questions or comments from the public on this item? Anyone online? All right, I will entertain a motion. I move. We approve. Sorry, I lost the COA number. 2550 as presented. Do we have a second? Second. Discuss.
 Jack, you have comments? No, I'm just happy to see the facade being repaired. It's a historical item in this town, and it looks like it's in pretty terrible shape at the moment. And I look forward to seeing it improved. Ernesto, you have comments? Yeah, I just want to say that you guys have thought about the details. That's great to hear. So I'm glad that you guys are repairing the windows. Duncan, you have comments?
 Only that Steve Wyatt from Bloomington Restorations called me, and we went in there and talked to the petitioners about this detail. And they showed us the condition of the sash, which is poor. And we discussed the distances that might be needed to create these mechanisms.
 owns an easement on that front facade. So the board of directors at BRI will also be running an approval. But they were waiting for the C of A to be issued. Well, they were waiting for the application so they could see exactly how it was. All the details were delineated if they matched the way we discussed the topic or the subject. So the construction is contingent on both the approval of the commission and BRI. That's true.
 That's very helpful. But I know that Steve Wyatt agreed with me and with the petitioner when we discussed the details that you have in front of you. Which are not many. Right. So the recommendation that we made to them is the recommendation that you're seeing, basically. So I'm confident that BRI is going to approve it. OK. I'm going to talk a little bit out of turn. So my concern is that we aren't seeing
 what the profiles are of the existing windows versus what we're going to see. And I have absolute faith in you guys doing an amazing job. That said, we don't know what you're doing on this front. So I understand there's some dimensional flex in here, and you're going to need some additional room to put weights in.
 I mean, you can probably skinny it up by putting plate weights and that kind of stuff. But we don't know what the profiles are and how that four inches is going to be achieved and how it's going to look. And that is my major concern. So they have the original sash or remnants of them. And our request was that they replicate the original sash. So those profiles will be the same. So the sash.
 the head and then the middle. The way these were constructed is sort of the old masonry installation where they have a, I can't remember if it's a two by eight or two by six as a side frame, but there's just a rectangular frame that's essentially mortared into the opening. Yeah. And then the sash fit directly against it with some stops. There's no play. There's no play. And that's why they rotted. Yeah, because there's no play. Right.
 even if they weren't going to establish, try to put weights in to make them operable to code, they would still need to create a space there in order to protect the new frame. And give it a little bit of expansion. So we talked about that, and then we talked about what's the maximum you think that you would need. Now we're talking to RC engineers as well, because they're writing the spec for this, which I will just add is probably the most respectable engineering
 company in Indiana, especially for historic structures. I've worked with them on several terracotta projects, actually. So we arrived at that four inches. That would be the maximum amount that they would need, two inches per side, and hopefully be able to reduce that. And the windows are recessed behind the terracotta so the width change isn't as visibly apparent as it would be if they were flush to the surface.
 So all those things were discussed, including the beefing up of the, this calls them pilasters, they're really structural columns which were inadequate because this facade has been remodeled once before. But the terra cotta pilasters are gonna remain, but the structural backup is gonna be beefed up. The structural backup changes and the terra cotta gets put back on.
 way it is. So when we went through all those details and looked at the condition of the frames and the windows, we thought replacement in kind was the logical way to do it. We also talked about what the material was and what would be the best thing to do. We felt like using the same material, Douglas Spur is a very strong, good, lightweight material. So all those
 My understanding is all those profiles are going to be replicated. Just to clarify, the approval of the Historic Preservation Commission, there's a subsequent approval by BRI. Yes. And they haven't done that yet because they were waiting for this document, basically. Thank you. But my reading of the document, I think it fairly represents what we discussed that day.
 accurately represents it. And I don't think anybody knows exactly what that space is going to be until the mechanism is resolved and RC is working on that. So just to give you context.
 I also like how you're including the original windows again to be cut back into size. I like that detail. So I thought that was a great touch on this. So thank you for doing that. I was just going to make sure that everybody knew BRI had covenants on this, that Duncan's done a much better job than I would have. I'd like to thank Duncan for providing some additional detail on this. I was a little concerned about seeing
 size being reduced given the guidelines that we have in the district. So it's trying to better understand why there's some suggestion that they get a little bit smaller, but it sounds like even the visual of that might be mitigated somewhat by what you're doing. So, yeah. My comments, I additionally had some concerns, but they are alleviated by
 VRI having review of the final profiles on this. Yes, of course, we're thrilled because we've had this easement for years. And every time a new tenant comes in, we keep trying to enforce what obviously need them. You can just see from that picture how it shaped the terracotta. I might add that while we were there, I saw workers rebuilding broken terracotta detail pieces because they're
 too expensive and difficult to replicate. So they're actually repairing the trim pieces that are uniquely molded. I am so happy about that. I can't even say. All right. Anything further? Full roll? OK. Ernesto Castaneda? Yes. Daniel Schlegel? Yes. Sam DeSaller? Yes.
 Jack Baker? Yes. Jeremy Hacker? Yes. Melody Dusner? Yes. Motion to approve carries 6-0. Thank you for coming in and doing what you do. Next item is COA 2551. Petitioner is Zachary Hawk. Is Zach present?
 1308 slash 1310 East Atwater is a buff brick four square duplex. Some windows have been replaced as well as the front doors. The limestone front steps have been replaced with wood. Two story wooden staircase that have been added to the rear of the building, which is accessible from two center doors on the back of the second story. Every side of the building is visible from the public right of way from either streets or alleys. So the proposed replacement of all windows would require a comprehensive review.
 The primary facade is located on the north. Some more flexible review may be permissible for the south elevation. Conditional approval was given in June 2025 for the removal of the rear staircase, the replacement of the metal front door, and the re-shingling of the rear roof area. Subsequently, staff visited the property with a petitioner to investigate the extent to which windows could be repaired. This request is for the replacement of all of the windows
 Aluminum finished windows of the same size double hung our casement to match the existing operation and the replacement of the rear second story doors with windows with stone sales beneath So I'll show you what we're looking at Going to be removed As well as find your packet
 Lists of both problems that petitioner found go walking through the house. As well as. The most recent. Rental inspection report which was conducted in twenty twenty two under previous ownership. You'll see some of the basement windows which are tripartite. I've been replaced or filled in
 There are a couple of sashes that are jamming, some that are really starting to rot. These doors on the back we determined are old, but they're certainly not original to that location. Staff recommends, I'm sorry, this is kind of a complicated one, conditional approval of COA 2551 for the replacement of the rear secondary
 Second story doors, the kitchen window and upper closet window in 1308, the lower level dining room window warped 1310 first floor east side window and second story 1310 vinyl window with wood frame double hung windows of the selected brand and the replacement of the basement awning windows as well as the removal of any storm windows.
 While most of the windows in 1308, 1310 duplex are in working order and can be repaired with a replacement of small parts like locks or weights, several have more structural issues including rot and warped sashes that would be difficult to repair. The doors installed in the rear second story are not original to this location and likely replaced windows very similar to those found elsewhere on the house. The applicant proposes installing limestone sills similar to those found under other windows
 Not all windows have storm windows, and some of those that are in place are deteriorated beyond the point of repair. Many of the basement windows are either damaged or missing. Does the petitioner have anything he'd like to add? There's a question. Sure. It was going to change the dimensions of the windows. Dimensions of the windows are going to stay the same. I love the type of replacement we're going to use. Replacing the pocket, we're replacing everything. That's where that goes. I'm not going to change the interior of the window,
 I'm going to upgrade the integrity of the window as far as that goes. You have a lot of deterioration there. And to find that same wood today, which is kind of tough to find, and I looked. I love it. I do about 3,000 windows a year. But what I'm saying is, with the appellate reserve, it is honored by the National Historic Society. What is it going to be replacing it? Yeah, some of them possibly could be repaired, but it's starting to deteriorate more and more every day towards making the dense safe.
 for if you have college students that stay there, it's making them safe again to stay there. And some of the locks are working with the correct gear. They've been altered over time. Thank you. You're welcome. We have questions. Jack? Yeah, on the staff recommendations, really specific in the highlighted section.
 Down at the bottom, the last three and a half lines, not all the windows have storm windows, and some are in place or deteriorated beyond so on. I just wondered why those lines are there. Are they making some sort of recommendation, or is that something that should be pulled out of the approval? About the deteriorated storm windows? Yeah, it just says that they are. It doesn't say what to do with them. Well, I recommend in the recommendation the removal of any storm windows.
 There's really just a few left on the house. They're steel frame. I don't think any of them have glass left in them. And some of them, I think there's some pictures here, are fairly far gone. Let me rephrase my question a little bit differently.
 There's three and a half lines. Are they referring to the windows that are in the actual recommendation that are specifically designated up above? Is that what you're saying? It's referring to the part of the recommendation that refers to the removal of storm windows. So there's only a few storm windows on the house. And they're not in great shape. They're not in great shape. That's all I have. Jeremy, questions? I think this might be.
 I hate to put you on the spot, but me trying to understand which of these we're actually talking about, can you bring up the picture of the house and actually, can we point out which ones we're talking about in the recommendation? It's one thing to say it, but I'd like to actually see where that is on the house. Okay, let's see. Yeah, sorry. No, that's fine. Okay. For your second story, doors.
 That's pretty straightforward for your second story doors. Kitchen window and upper closet window in 1308. Kitchen windows back here. Upper closet window. So I need to change. I need to go forward about.
 No, because this is, I mean. That's interior. Yes, interior. OK, we don't have a frontal. I may honestly need Zach's help with this, if he remembers. Yeah, go ahead. The 1308. 1308's this side. Right. The closet. That's one of the rear windows here. That's one of the rear bedrooms. That's what that is. OK. And they replaced it with a vital window. That's right. They tried to mask it with a store window. I didn't see it the first year. OK. Lower level dining room window.
 Um, that is. That's great. All right. Um, worked 1310 first floor, the side window. It's on the, it's, this might be, it's not, it's not showing right now. Try going backward or forward. There we go.
 OK, that's the north side. I need to go down a little bit more. That's all we got. We could go to Google Maps or something. The front face is north, so that's, yeah, that is the east side. Thank you.
 The 1310 east side, lower level, because to the right of it, that would be, of course, your east side, right there. It would be towards the front of the hall over there on the left. You can't really see it in that picture. Oh, wait. No, 1310 would be on the east, right? Isn't that the east, like that big picture there on the left? Right, that's facing the east. OK, that is facing the east side. That one and the top two are basically east.
 Both the east side. And then the back one is the lower one is the south. We just don't have west in the packet or in the presentation. Well, I'm sorry about that. So it just kind of seems like they're all over in various parts of the house.
 Let's see if any of these are identifiable from these pictures. Now. Yeah, I can pull up maps if you want to have a look at that. That's probably a good idea.
 The east is very similar to the west. Yeah. I mean, it is mirrored images. Mirrored, more or less. Because they've got that little porch. They've got the chimneys. They've got all the things. Yeah. No, that doesn't help. OK. So, OK. Going back, 1308. Kitchen window.
 That is in the rear of the building. So like on this house side? Yeah. OK. Upper closet. Sorry about this. OK. Upper closet window in 1308. That's, I believe, up here. Lower level dining room window. Let me pull that up. That is here.
 Back to 1310, warped 1310, first floor, east side window. Let's see. Second story, vinyl window.
 Do you remember, Zach, which of the first floor windows on 1310 was the one that had the real issues? They had what? The issue? There was a window on the first floor in 1310. Do you remember? Was that in the living room? Let's see here. I don't have a picture. 1310. 1310's on the left, facing the building. Correct. Yes. OK. Well, it would be exactly the window there in the front on the lower level.
 Oh, front facing. Oh, it's forward. 1310, first floor. Otherwise, each side would have been redundant. I see what we're saying here. Referring to this window here. That one was having trouble opening. And then unless you want to go through the
 basement windows. I think there's the back step up on the second floor, which is new, and then there's their pervasive.
 For these sort of things, when there's a bunch of different things, it's always helpful to have it in a picture with maybe the highlighted or something along those lines just to help with that. No complaints there. Any other questions? No. I took up enough. Questions? Yeah. Karen? Yeah. Daniel? Duncan? No. Can I ask a question? Yes. Are the windows actually wood framed but clad with aluminum clad?
 Yes. OK. The existing ones are, or the new, the replacement ones. The proposed ones. Yes, there's new windows. That's correct. OK. There are reserves where they are, traditional reserves. Now you see them before they are honored on the Honor Society and the Historical Society throughout the U.S. Parks and Recreation as well.
 There is a wood window that we could replace it with. I did a lot of research on that by Marvin. Marvin uses pine, and it's a cheap pine is what they're using. And what have I found in my craft experience is sometimes you'll get rock, remember, three to five years. This wood here, like I said before, it was aged. It had density in it. You can't find that today. And so with having, and I have pictures of what it would look like before and after it lands, right? OK, thank you.
 It's not going to change as much at all. Thank you. Thank you. That's it, sir. Do we have a question, or do we have anything back from the neighborhood? I did not hear back from the neighborhood on this. I heard from some of the, or at least one of the parents of the renters who was concerned about accessibility using the windows that are currently in there.
 confused about why a local like replacement wouldn't be considered in this district for some of these windows. Gotcha. Thank you. OK. I have a question. And so in the packet, we've got something called like Puller or something, Puller Tech or something. And so what are you actually proposing to replace them with? You mentioned Pella Reserve several times during this presentation. Is that the current?
 Oh, yeah, it says here. So it's in the fine print. I can't read them. My eyes are crying. Sorry. All right. I guess we are at the point where we can entertain a motion. Anybody have a motion?
 Oh, my bad. Anybody online? I don't see anything. Anybody here? I think you're here for something else. Thank you for your patience, by the way. All right. Hearing none, I will entertain motion. I'll move for conditional approval from COA 2551 based on the staff recommendations. I second that. Conditional approval and now
 Just to clarify, are we talking about putting in Pella Reserves clad windows everywhere? Because I am a little confused about what the petitioner is proposing. Just to clarify for him. Pella Reserve, do they do not clad wood? Well, that is my question. Right. What are you proposing?
 that they approve that you aluminum clad or wood windows. So the petitioner, I think, is proposing aluminum clad pillar reserve double hung windows everywhere. And if that is what you are proposing. If it's not written into staff recommendation here, maybe I should withdraw the motion, we should restate and then
 I'm trying to work with that. I mean, I see one way of doing that. Because it needs to be stated more clearly. Let's do that. And I can go through all the promotion, and I'm sure the second one. Well, the recommendation is for wood frame windows, as it says. Which are not clad. Which are not clad. So just so you're clear on what your recommendation is.
 um, making a motion on is like wood, Pella, windows, not clad. And I also, I get what the petitioner is saying about windows made these days with, you know, fast growth pine. I'd like to, you know, I think the question will be then is are we getting similarity and continuity with the windows? Are we going to be able to tell the differences?
 looking from the outside, or are we going to be able to see that everything looks more or less the same and has continuity? I mean, are we into a vague area with motion? If we are, I'll pull it. So I'm going to be the dead horse here. Elm Heights, very specific guidelines. Replace like with like. What is proposed is not like.
 what staff is suggesting is like because it is wood. And I think there's a discrepancy between what the petitioner is asking for and what staff is recommending. And I just want that to be incredibly clear. I agree. OK. So you're going with the staff recommendation. I'm wondering if we need to talk about it more.
 If commissioners feel like we should talk about it and come to a consensus on it, then let's withdraw the motion and talk and put another motion in effect. I appreciate it. Any other comments from commissioners? Well, we've got to do a motion now. Yes, that's fair. Well, let me withdraw the motion first. All right. So I withdraw my motion. Second? Agree or not agree? I agree. OK. Fair. All right.
 So I think the issue we're having here to address your concerns is that Elm Heights has very restrictive guidelines. And they are very leery of replacing any material with anything else. So we would have no problem replacing these wood windows, which I agree aren't in the best shape.
 with wood windows. And I might disagree respectfully with your comment about Marvin windows. I have them in my house. They've been there for 15 years so far. You've got to maintain them. But yeah, they're more expensive. They require more maintenance. And for a rental property, you don't want that. But this is also Elm Heights.
 Just putting that out there. And I don't know. So I think there are two things that I would like to clarify on here is one, all the windows are one over one, except for the basement windows, which are three. So is the petitioner willing to do triple divided lights in the basement?
 I don't care if they're Marvin or if they're a different manufacturer.
 I think that the thing that we get a little, speaking for myself, I get a little leery about is non-wood windows or clad windows in a very restrictive neighborhood like Elm Heights. And if you need to have a little time to figure out what window works the best, that's a wood window. Would you be willing to come back to the next meeting? Absolutely. All right. So I'm going to make a dunk it.
 Well, there's a couple. For me, there's a couple of things going on here. If you're not going to replace them all, they're not going to match anyway, because several of them are aluminum, the replacement windows. That's fair. I mean, the replacement, the proposed replacement, or the existing ones? The existing ones. There's a vinyl existing one, and then the rest of them are wood? The rest of them are wood. I'm just saying they're not going to look alike.
 Regardless of what you put in new, unless you match the aluminum ones. Well, there's no aluminum ones. There's a vinyl one, and there's wood ones. That is my understanding. So what I'm seeing on the front of the house, the front elevation, that aluminum, is that those are storm windows? Yeah, they've got some aluminum storms on them. On all the windows on the front facade. That's what I'm seeing.
 Wood with aluminum storms. If some of those are going to stay and some of them are going to get replaced, they're not going to look alike unless you put aluminum storms on them. There's no point putting aluminum storms on a thermal paint window. No, there's no point at all. Second of all, wood windows are often clad on the outside. They're still wood.
 But they're aluminum or vinyl clad on the outside. So the nomenclature, I think, is... So, I mean, I think what the petitioner was hoping to see was a wood window with aluminum clad exterior. Yeah. Which, in terms of how it looks, will look just like a wood window that's painted white or painted whatever that color is. I'm going to disagree with that. Huh? I disagree with that. Okay, well, pretty close.
 It's, you know. On the inside, I don't disagree with that. But we don't have purview over that. Yeah. But I mean, I'm unsure what the, I mean, that's where in-kind replication gets confusing. Yeah. So there's certainly much more maintenance, much less maintenance on a clad window, particularly an aluminum clad window. But vinyl ones don't last very long. OK.
 But there's not going to be consistency from window to window in this project unless they're all replaced. But that's what they're proposing, is to replace everything. I know, but our staff is recommending something different. And so the context I'm talking about is what his recommendation is. And I'm just saying they're not going to get lookalikes. And if that's what we do in the motion,
 And if they're replacement windows anyway, I don't know. I would put a clad window in there just for maintenance and durability, regardless of what the Elm Heights people think. Because these aren't original windows. Well, some of them may be. But they're falling apart of original windows.
 So two things, I guess. The design guidelines from the neighborhood tells you to replace in kind. Yeah. Okay. The existing windows that are there are not original to the house. Not all of them anyway. Not all of them. Some of them are. Okay, so we have two things here. The ones that are original would need to be replaced in kind.
 Right? They would need to be replaced as they are, all wood. And ones that are not, then what do you do with the mismatch? That's what you're referring to. So what do we do? Either we, as the commission, propose to replace all the windows in kind to the original window,
 Or we give some level of flexibility. That's the dilemma here. Yeah. So there's some windows that aren't original. Right. Do you do those as clad or whatever the petitioner wants? Do you do and then the rest of them, which are original wood windows, do you do those in kind? Or do you do those, allow them to match the proposed
 I think there is, by percentage, the existing windows is minimal compared to the non-original. Would you speak to that, Noah? How many original wood windows are there relative to non-original wood windows? I mean, almost all of the windows in the house are wood. Whether all of those are original, I'm not positive. They're all old.
 And then you have the vinyl window, and then you have the basement windows. And there's the doors. And in kind, quite literally, would be single pane painted wood, single pane window, which would require a storm, and there's no storm being proposed.
 You know, it's just a crap shoot here. Is it single pane? Because we have purview over the exterior of the house. And that second pane isn't in our purview. Can you see it? I'm just saying. Yeah, but the inside of the window is... It ain't us. But it is part of the window. But it's not, I mean, is that... We never treated windows as interior fixtures. I know, but there's the inside of the window and there's the outside of the window. Well, maybe so, but...
 I feel like we need to have some kind of motion in order to argue some more. Yeah, to focus this. Because we're kind of waffling. Does anybody want to make a motion? Yeah, that's why I was. Do we want to kick it down the road another meeting? I asked the petitioner to state clearly what he did. I mean, the petitioner is talking about, like,
 I think we should address, do you want to come back with some windows, or do you want us to make a motion, and then you can come back? Do you have a leaning? A bubble here. Yeah, I mean, I got a chance to come back some minutes. Here's the other problem that's going to hurry up.
 You got people coming in. Yeah, exactly. And I'm on that right there. So I'd love to be able to make a motion today to get approval, but I've got kids' parents calling me on the right and left. I'm just imagining, I'm just the contractor. They're doing a bit about the inefficient glass, the safety of the glass, the logs, everything else. The owner is sitting there with the money to replace the windows. He has the money.
 It was allocated when you bought the building. Yep. Yep. So I would like to see a motion today. But I mean, if I need to come back, I'll come back. That's all I can say. That's your answer today. Clap, clap. Was that helpful? Thank you. Does anybody want to make a motion? Before we make a motion, can I make one more? Oh, please do. One more comment to steer the pot. Please do.
 If the commission were to approve this COA with the condition that all windows will be replaced, all of them, would windows clad aluminum exterior? If we were to approve that, would the neighborhood have an objection to that? They haven't weighed in. Yeah, they haven't. So we don't know. I mean, the neighborhood.
 has been making noises that their guidelines are a little too restrictive. And we have said, please change your guidelines to make them less restrictive because they're very clearly written. They're very restrictive. And that's what we got to work with here. And those work really well when it's very clear what you need to do. But here is a mixed match of elements. I would disagree.
 I would disagree. I would say that the guidelines say replace in kind. Right. So we have most of the windows, which are wood windows, which need to be replaced in kind. That said, there are a vinyl window and the second story door windows. They could be whatever. They could be. I agree with you, however. We don't know if those windows that you say that there
 Original are in fact original. That is irrelevant because they are existing wood windows. If you're going to replace something, you replace it in kind, whether or not it's original. If you're going to change the material. Original to what? That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying the windows that exist right now are wood windows. I don't know.
 I mean, look at the guidelines. I have. That's why I'm asking the question. And my read on them is like, if you have existing wood windows, whether or not they are original, you need to replace them in kind, according to the Elmhide's guidelines. OK. So if that's the case, why are we arguing about this? Because you're arguing here. I don't know. I'm not. I'm just laying it out what the case is so that we make an educated decision. That's all. No.
 So the vinyl window should be replaced with a vinyl window. It could be replaced with a vinyl window. Or it could be replaced in kind with something that is more appropriate to the period of the building. In kind means like the one that's there. I hear that. The text isn't explicitly in kind. If original windows, doors, hardware can be restored and reused, they should not be replaced.
 The restoration and replacement or installation of new windows and doors, including their features, et cetera, replace missing elements based on accurate documentation of the original, if that's possible. And new units or materials will be considered for non-character defining features when the use of original units or materials has been determined to be inadvisable or unfeasible.
 Inadvisable. I mean, you could advise whatever. I'm an advisor. All right. What do you advise, Duncan? Were you saying that wood windows would have to have storm windows to protect them? Does somebody say that? If they were single pane. Oh, OK. All right. If they're double pane windows, then you don't need them. OK. And?
 the additional protection of that storm is that it protects the finish on them. Yeah. It's not a bad thing to have a storm regardless of the type of window. I have storms on all my wood windows. Yeah. Does any other part of the guidelines, I know you've put the goals in for windows and doors, but does any other part of the guidelines speak to the holistic effect of the house in terms of not wanting houses to have a patchy all over the place quality?
 Is that a priority anywhere in the guidelines? Because I think that's partly where your concern is coming from, right, is that, like, it seems like these guidelines could be accomplishing the opposite of maybe what they set out to, if you get it. So it's a pretty molecular set of guidelines. So there might be something in there. But I did not go looking for that, even though, I mean, it did occur to me writing this recommendation that, I mean, to Duncan's point, it is sort of a patchwork
 solution, so. I understood it as the right approach, however, because if the windows are salvageable, they should be left. They should be kept. And so I think what Noah's been trying to do is recommend the ones that are not salvageable be replaced. And he's indicated which ones he thinks should be replaced on that. I think that's the basis for it, that they're not usable anymore. So once you get into that,
 replace that mixed match thing, then you're a victim of it at the same time. Because that was the substance of our first discussion of this, right, was the question of what could be salvaged. Yeah. And salvaging original material is a priority of historic preservation. It does especially. So repair is always the preference over replacement.
 And I think that's the concept he's protecting, which I agree with. Then the question is, what do you replace the ones that have to be replaced with? And do they have to match all the other ones? And according to these guidelines, they should. They should match. I mean, if this was like a federally funded project, they would have to match. Yeah. I don't think we're getting any federal funds for this one.
 Can I make a motion? Please do. I would make a motion to approve COA 2551 as stated by the staff guidelines. So to clarify... Does the staff recommendation... Okay. Can you... Staff recommends conditional approval of COA 2551, replacement of rear second story doors,
 the kitchen window and upper closet window in 1308, and the lower dining room window warped 1310 first floor east side window, second story 1310 vinyl window with wood frame double hung windows of the selected brand, and replacement of basement awning windows, as well as the removal of any storm windows. And the replacement of the basement windows, what are those?
 Because some of them are. Some of them are gone. I mean, what are you talking about replacing them with? That is what I'm unclear on. So you're talking about not a clad window, but a wood window. I'm just trying to make sure we're all on the same page. So what's going on in the basement with staff? I mean, they're wood windows now.
 recommendation is for replacement with wood windows and I guess that's unclear since wood frame double hung. All right. Do I have a second? I'll second.
 Do we need to discuss this any further? No, no, no. Nobody wants to talk about this anymore. Well, the only thing that concerns me is the recommendation to remove the storm windows. I understand that they're in really bad condition, but I don't think that should be a prohibition against storm windows. As long as that's clear, then they're going to need to put storm windows on the house.
 if they don't put double-paned wood windows. Well, they can't. Why not? Because it's not in kind. I mean, you either get it or you don't. You can't do both. You can't say in kind and have it be almost in kind. That's the sticking point of a lot of preservation. That's why I said I would put clad wood windows in.
 because it's a better product. And they look the same, virtually. Well, we've got the motion on the table, so I think if you disagree with it, I don't know. And then we can come back around and do a different motion. Yeah. Using exactly matching materials, and there are a pair of the features in kind, as defined in the Elm Heights guidelines, not necessarily
 So exactly matching materials. What are you saying? Elmhase guidelines in kind using exactly matching materials in the repair of a feature. Replacement in kind repairs that do not visibly change the materials or appearance of an historic building or site. So it's appearance.
 And I would argue. That's a repair spec, though. But replacement in kind as per, I'm not arguing like the Secretary of Interior standards, but Elm Heights guidelines, replacement in kind don't visibly change it. That's a Pandora's box, I'm pretty sure. That's pretty great.
 There is a motion on the table. Do I hear a second? I did second. You did second. All right. Reconsidering, but I did. Well, it's happening. Well, we can vote now. Yes, exactly. Eddie, would you call the roll, please? So this is to approve staff replacement. This is in kind. In kind.
 Melody Dusner. No, don't call me first. Is that no, don't call me, or no, you don't call me? Don't call me first. I'm still trying to untangle this. OK, OK. I'll start from the other end. Ernesto Castaneda. Daniel Schlegel. You just get me and come right back. Oh my god. It won't take long.
 OK, all right, all right. Sam DeSauler. Yes. OK, Jack Baker. Even though I seconded, I'm going to vote against him. No, it's fine. It's fine. Jeremy Hacker. Yes. Daniel Slagle. I'll say no. Anesta.
 Oh, Melody. Melody. Melody's the last one. But Ernesto hasn't voted yet, I don't think. Yeah, Ernesto voted first. Oh, my bad. Yeah, it's 2-3 right now. Oh. So it's done. It's going to, Besta can do his tie, so it won't pass. It's not going to pass. OK, well, I was going to say no anyway. I was convinced by Duncan's description of the better window. So you are voting no? I'm voting no. OK.
 OK, motion fails to four. All right. Well, do you want to consider another motion? I mean, I don't want to. Yeah, certainly. Because there's been another one that's been brought up, which is basically the original proposal. Which is, does anybody want to make a motion to allow clad windows to be allowed on this project? You could follow Noah's recommendation and change it to clad windows. Right.
 The same argument. Wood windows. Wood windows, aluminum, clad. That's all it is. Does anybody want to make that? You know how to do it. I'll make the motion. I'll make the motion. All right. Conditional approval of COA 2551 based upon the staff recommendation with clad windows. Is that fair? Wood clad. Is that clear enough? Wood windows clad with aluminum. Say again? Wood windows clad with aluminum.
 To allow the use of wood windows clad with, now I think we should say clad with aluminum or vinyl. No, we should not say that at all. Vinyl shouldn't be an option. You don't want to clad anything with vinyl. No, that's not OK. All right, it's technologically clad with aluminum. Sorry. And actually, would it be OK to say you think wood windows or wood windows clad with? No. No, it has to be one of the other. They're different animals. OK, all right. Got you.
 There's a motion on the table. Do I have a second? I second that. All right. Call the roll. OK. Hold on. Oh, wait. Jeremy. Oh, we have a discussion. Check with a petitioner to make sure they're clear. So this is basically what you want is what I'm understanding. We're back around to what you want. You have comments. That's what I asked you, right? If you were going to do wood windows clad in aluminum. That's correct. Yeah. That's where we are. OK.
 So if you want to make him happy, this is what you do. All right. Comments? Do we have comments? No. All right. I think we've talked this through. Please call the roll. OK. So this is a staff recommendation with aluminum clad windows, correct? Yes. Yes. OK. No. Wood clad windows with aluminum clad windows. Wood clad windows with aluminum clad windows. OK.
 Is there any aluminum-clad windows that have aluminum on the inside? OK. You want to go first? I'll go first. Yes. Melanie Ducey. Jeremy Hackard. Yes. Jack Baker. Yes. Sam Nisaler. No. Daniel Schlegel. Yes. Ernesto Castaneda. Yes.
 Motion carries, five, one. Thank you for your patience. Appreciate it. Thank you, sir. OK. We'll begin.
 We have three demolition delays for tonight. First demo delay tonight addresses 2127 East 5th Street. Petitioner is Ernest G. 2127 East 5th is a minimal ranch built in 1948 with a prominent brick front chimney stack.
 by the front entrance and a picture window to its right, it's not very specific, to its north, no, to its west. The exterior form of the house is fairly unchanged. The house was first occupied by William G. Moss, a counselor for the IU football team who had previously been a high school coach in Fort Wayne. 1950, the house was bought by assistant IU football coach Otis Edmonds and his wife Kathy.
 In 1953, Edmonds took a job as backfield coach for the Baltimore Colts, which would later relocate to Indianapolis. From 1953 through 1958, the house was owned by business management professor and former Air Force instructor Keith Davis and his wife Mary, a children's book author. In 1962, the house was bought by Klubomir Matulic, a graduate student in optics, and his wife Alice, a student of French.
 The couple would move after two years to go on to teach at St. John Fisher College in Rochester, New York. From 1964 through 1996, the house was owned and occupied by Mary A. Lambert, a beautician and volunteer secretary for the local chapter of the Communication Workers of America for 40 years. Lambert was active in the local Democratic Party politics and the Hoosier Hills Food Bank. Their quest is for full demolition
 The staff recommendation is release of demolition delay 2516. Is the petitioner present? I'm here on his behalf. Mm-hmm. What's your name for the record, please? Sable. Thank you. Questions? Does the petitioner have anything to add? We do not. All right. Questions, Jack?
 My question is always, why? I wish. That's the only question I have. I wish we had another way of doing this. We don't. That's all I have to say. No questions? Questions? Questions? Questions? What Jack said. Yeah, questions? I have no questions. Any questions or comments from the public on this one?
 I'd like to oppose this demolition as I oppose all three of the demolitions proposed tonight. But I do not have anything specific to this structure to have, although I do for the election. Thank you. Thank you. I will entertain a motion. I'll move to release demolition delay 2516. Do I hear a second? I'll second. Discussion?
 I think I will open the discussion with the same thing I will open the discussion with on all of these. The HBC has basically two things we can do if you are not an historic district and that is recommended for designation to the common council if on its own it has enough merit either architecturally or culturally to make it on its own.
 which in this case is highly unlikely, or to release it. And that's going to be the same with all of these houses. And I understand there are a number of houses in your neighborhood that are under the gun right now. And I think there was one several weeks ago that was released. And I would get organized, is what I'm saying.
 You have a question. When you say release, does that mean you're approving the demolition? That means we're approving the demolition because that's our choice. It's like we can say this house is important enough to designate or we gotta let it go. We have no other choice here. And we're bound by law to make one or the other within a certain amount of time. And in the meantime, if the neighborhood wants to get organized to become an historic district,
 We would support that. So we'll get to that when you get to the house that you want to actually talk about. All right, I lost my train. Other comments? Other comments from the public? Anybody online? All right, I will entertain a motion. I would also, Jordan, you have a motion. Yeah, we have a motion. My bad.
 What would have been the green acres? Yes. And that failed. Oh. So this is over there. Yeah. OK. And they tried to organize, and it did not. And it did not go through. Oh. That's right. This house. Yeah. I think that was right before you came on. Maybe somebody can give the background. Yeah. Could somebody tell me? I will tell you the story. Now, can we do it later? Sure. OK.
 But the Green Acres tried to become a historic, doesn't it? They did. It went up to the Common Council. It did not pass. OK. They were trying to do it. OK. Yeah, I'll be interested to hear that. Yeah. Because that was what I was going to comment on, was I hope someone in these neighborhoods can get organized and get on this. Yeah. Different neighborhoods have different strengths and different parameters. I wish there was something we could do. We can encourage.
 We can also proactively suggest or organize to have a district. I mean, speaking as myself, I like it to come from the neighborhoods because that's where the power is. I'm just going to echo your comments. It bothers me every time we see one of these and every meeting we have. Lately we've had maybe three per meeting.
 three houses that are going out of use and to something else that's Not in the nature of that neighborhood and I just hate to see that but have no authority to do anything I think it's a very good comment to organize and be historic neighborhoods. I'm in one of the first we saw our neighborhood degrading back in the 90s late 90s and we organized a
 As a neighborhood association, later on we organized as a conservation district, and then we're kicked up to historic district. It has saved the neighborhood in many ways. At that time, it was parking lots. You could take a house down, and that was before demolition, but delaying, you could take a house down and literally put up a parking lot within a day or two. This is the old gardens you're talking about, right? Yes, the old gardens.
 So it can save a lot of grief. But it takes a lot of work to organize. And we had fights, but even within the neighborhood, people thought that we were trouncing on property rights and private rights. Other people thought, no, it's actually the opposite. We're trying to maintain some continuity here. We won out with becoming a historic neighborhood. And I think it's done a world of good for us. And I think we've got, what, 13 or so
 historic neighborhoods in the city now. It's working for them, and you can see where it's not working. 17th Street, the neighborhood, is being lost house by house. Every time I go by there, I just think, you know, that's just terrible. These houses are usable. We hate to see them go. That's my commentary. Karen. I want to go to what Jack said. I mean, going back through some of these,
 monstrosities put in their place, but it's the fabric of the neighborhoods. It's like a giant sore thumb, and the fabric of the neighborhoods forever altered after that. But I do agree, seeing it from the neighborhood, not going in to say you will become. People at Green Acres were interested, and I'd love to see them even if it's smaller in scale than there was, just something to maintain that fabric and that continuity through all of that or other locations.
 be a big fan of. What I would really like to see is if these houses have to get torn down, which I don't know why they have to get torn down, why somebody has to go make money on this, but that maybe they can get replaced with something that matches the fabric of the neighborhood that doesn't stick out like a sore thumb.
 And I don't see why that has to only be in a historic area or whatever. I mean, it just seems to me like things should match the neighborhood. They're killing Bloomington. We've had so many places go down by where our house is. And then it's awful. And they're all built the same way. They look the same. They're soulless. They're quickly built. And a lot of them are sitting empty. And we have these giant apartment buildings going up.
 Are those getting filled? I mean, I don't know. I've seen a lot of for rent signs for August. It's August. School starts on the 25th. If they're not moving in now, when are they moving in? My classmates from that spectrometry school come through and they say, what's happened? You don't even recognize Bloomington. What happened? Jeez. Not one of my friends say, what an improvement. Remember, this is great. This is here.
 There's an on chat here. The person asked, I would like to know why the neighborhood's petition was turned down as well. Why the what neighborhood? I would like to know why the neighborhood's petition was turned down as well. That's a question for, I think, the city council. It went to the city council and then they green acres.
 I think retracted. They did not have the votes at city council. No, I don't think they did, but they retracted it. They retracted it. It was debated by the city council. But it did pass through the HPC and went to the city council. It was retracted to city council. And my understanding was the why was they did not have the vote. That was, yeah, the read between the lines. Yeah, but that's, yeah. Can I just add one?
 Please do. The thing to that is that my understanding was also that they didn't really, they had a lot of opposition by property owners within Green Anchors because they're absentee landlords. Yeah, and it was a very fast process for the historic district. And there's no way, you know, you've got to have the numbers too, so. Yeah. Yeah, and it was a fast process. It wasn't enough. And there are other mitigating factors which we won't get into because it's- No, we won't get into.
 OK, will that satisfy the person online, that explanation? It will seem so unless they raise their hand. Yeah, OK. All right. OK. So where were we? We're ready to go. Ready to go? Ready. OK.
 So the motion is to release the demo delay. And the yes vote is to release. Ernesto Castaneda? Yes. Daniel Schlegel? I'm going to say no. I'm OK with it. Sam DeSolar? Yes. Jack Baker? Very reluctant, yes. Jeremy Hackard? Yes. Melody Duesner? Yes. Motion carries 5-1.
 Today, regarding the property located at 2127 East 5th Street, the Historic Preservation Commission declares that it received notice of proposed demolition and, after today's discussion, sees no need to review the plans any further and waives the rest of the demolition delay waiting period. The HPC may later recommend the property for historic designation to the Common Council.
 Next item, demolition delay 2517, 422 East Cottage Grove, represented by Sable Buyers. 422 East Cottage Grove is an e-front bungalow with a front-facing hip dormer. The original porch railing was replaced in the 2000s, and the windows and door are an original. From 1922 through 1945, the house was owned by John M. and Ada Gilmore, partial owners of Uncle John's Restaurant at 233 North College.
 The couple lived next door at 424 East Cottage Grove and rented out this property. In 1934, John was elected county treasurer, and he died in 1936, leaving the house to Ada. The house was owned and occupied from 1946 through 1965 by Raymond Duke, a secretary at the YMCA, and his wife, Rebecca. From 1966 to 1972,
 The house was occupied by Reverend Hiram Frakes, a Methodist minister. In 1925, Frakes founded the school and settlement of Henderson in Bell County, Kentucky, one of the poorest and most violent counties in the state during the Prohibition era. Working with the funding of a local bootlegger, Frakes built a log school to teach farming and religion and provide mutual aid for residents during the Depression. In 1940, he returned to his native Indiana, eventually dying in Bloomington.
 After Frank's death, the house has been rented to students. Does the petitioner have anything to add? All right. Have we, this is not in a, right. Do I have questions from the commissioners? No questions. Questions? Questions, really? Carolyn? I think mine's still alive. I mean, it's a perfectly usable house. Yeah. Any questions? I do have.
 do this for the previous case? Jeremy did. Oh, sure. He just went. Yeah. He was very serious. Thank you. Sorry, I don't have any questions. I have no questions. I will entertain a motion. Public comments? I oppose the demolition of this property as I do the demolition of all three properties, but I do not have anything specific to say for this property. I do, however, for the next one. Thank you. Thank you.
 Motion. Anyone. Move to release. Demolition to a 2517. Second. I'll second. Discussion. I think it's the same as the last one. Would you call the roll? OK. Ernesto Castaneda. Yes. Daniel Schlegel.
 Yes, I know again. Sam Soler? Yes. Jack Baker? Yes. Jeremy Hacker? Yes. Melody Dusner? Yes. Motion carries 5-1. Today regarding the property located at 422 East
 cottage grove the historic preservation commission declares that it received notice of proposed demolition and after today's discussion sees no need to review the plans any further and waives the rest of the demolition delay waiting period. The HBC may later recommend the property for historic designation to the common council. Thank you. So I'm going to preface this next one by saying that over the past two days, so today and yesterday, I received a couple of letters from
 residents and the former one of the former owners of this house so each member of the commission has a copy of each of those letters and then i have extra copies on that table back there for anybody from the public who's interested in reading them but it has also been posted online on onboard which is where all the materials for this and other board and commission meetings are shared
 Both of those letters have been posted on board. This is 115 East 12th Street, petitioner Sable Byers. 115 East 12th Street is a Gablefront one-story California bungalow that retains most of its original features but has been recited in wide asbestos board. The house was first owned between 1927 and 1945 by Ivan Adams and his wife Gladys. Ivan ranked among the most prominent local stone carvers
 His work includes the Monroe County Courthouse World War II Memorial. That was not solely him, but he worked on it. The IU Seal at Foster Quad Dorm. Columns on the Fine Arts Building in Chicago's Grant Park in 1933. The National Statue of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C. The 21-foot statue of Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital at Indian Hill in Camden, New Jersey.
 and various other statues of Virgin Mary and saints for Catholic institutions around the country. A monumental statue marks the graves of Gladys and himself at Rose Hill Cemetery. After Adams moved out of the house, the house was rented out for the next 30 years to a number of tenants, most of whom did not stay longer than several years. One of the most prominent occupants was Robert Quirk, a professor of Mexican history,
 and editor of the American History Review. He was the recipient of the Frederick Jackson Turner Award for debut books by historians and lived in the location from 1955 through 1956. In 1977, this house was the first Bloomington residence of James and Susan Butler, founders of Butler Winery. And I'll mention at this point, one of the letters he received goes into more detail about recent history of the house.
 For the purposes of these recommendations, I go back 50 years because that's generally what's looked to for eligibility for designation. There's some other processes like if you're looking at the impact of federally funded projects, you look at up to a 40 year past cutoff. But that's when I make the cutoffs here. So that's not to negate any additional significance that may have been gained later in the South's history.
 So the staff recommendation for this house is release of demolition to late 2518. Questions? Jack? Jeremy? No questions. No. OK. Questions? No. OK. Do I have any?
 questions or comments from the public. I'd like to know who is online wanting to speak, and I'd also like to know the procedure. Are we allowed to read a statement of somebody who is not present that they have sent to us that we have not submitted yet to the... We would be happy to hear. Okay. Yes, I know. If you'd like to do that at this point, we'll get the online folks out to get the folks here. So... I'd just like to know who they are so we don't read their statements. We have one person online, and that's Judith Barnes.
 Why don't we do the online people? So then I understand. Thank you. So anyone online? Why don't you go through that? I have unmuted Judith Barnes. Judith, you have? Yeah, thank you. Hello, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Thank you. OK, can I also start my video so you can see me? I think that's a question for Noah.
 Let's see if I can share. Let's see. Oh, shoot. I don't see anything here not allowing you to share video home. It says it's disabled. Oh, it is? OK, let's see. Is that a city policy? It might be a city policy, because we've got people sending in porn and stuff. Yeah. I'm real sorry about that.
 A few bad apples. That's true. I think you would have to unmute it through the McCloskey computer, or the allow or share video through the McCloskey computer. I think so. Yes, because I don't have. Yeah, I don't see the option to allow video. I'm sorry about that. So with apologies, we are just going to have to hear you and not see you.
 Bear with us. OK. Oh, there's our video. OK. This is a little wow. Here we go. Try it now. OK, great. There you go.
 Thank you. There we go. Okay so I'm Judith Barnes and I until May of this year owned the house on 150 East 12th Street since 1987 and now I submitted a letter and to what degree are these letters actually read before the vote and do they have any
 It sounds like basically you have your hands tied here. Is there anything that I say that's going to make a difference? Am I going on record just for the sake of going on record? I don't know. We're happy to hear you. We're happy to hear you, but in some ways what you said, our hands are tied. We have two choices to make. What you say may influence those choices.
 We have designate the house. Or let the house go. Really the thing that has to add with anything of important historical significance or anything about the architectural importance of the house. Those are the things that we can consider when we when we review these. So if you have any comments that provide additional insight into those things, that is what could provide
 greater clarity on this property. Demolition delay period lasts for up to 90 days. And at any point within there, either of those choices could be made at a commission meeting. So if we hear something from you which causes us to say, hey, we need to go look into this, we'll look into it. OK, because I know that my neighbors also have some statements, and they're probably a bit extensive. And so that's why I asked how
 late are we going on this meeting? Because I would like to read my statement. Go right ahead. Okay, here it goes. Okay. Um, so as I said, I've owned the house. I went to Phoenix 12th Street since 1987 until May of this year. Circumstances forced me to sell this beloved house after almost 40 years. When I realized I could no longer afford to keep the home, I imagined that it would continue as a home for others.
 I had hoped to sell it to people who would love and cherish it the way I have. I only realized in retrospect that the new owner had plans to demolish it. And I have to add that it was a very sort of high pressure offer. Perhaps I should have been more savvy and realized that type of strong arm offer doesn't bode well for the property, but I've never sold the house before. So I really, I am devastated.
 to think that such a lovely, well-built 100-year-old house will be reduced to rubble. I hope that each one of you will take a little time to visit, or at least open your minds and hearts to consider the many people whose lives have been linked within its walls. Perhaps you will be able to enter and sit in the house for a while as you contemplate its fate. Take a moment to feel the spirit of the place. I hope that you might decide it's worthy of preservation.
 I hope you might decide to save and honor it rather than to tear it down. It is a historic, venerable, simple, elegant, and beautifully proportioned home, a classic California craftsman style bungalow built in the 1920s. It is solid and it's in good shape fundamentally. They built well back then. It is unusual in that it has light flooding in from the four directions throughout the day. It is harmonious with the neighborhood,
 with the lifestyle of the neighbors and with the city as a whole. It represents the kind of architecture that gives Bloomington its special character. It is a part of Bloomington history as well as a part of literary and artistic history. Once something like that is destroyed, not only the beautiful house and its potential future life, but so much that is intangible yet deeply valuable is gone forever.
 My hope now is to acquaint the Bloomington Historic Preservation Commission with a bit of the house's past so that you will have some feeling for what this place has meant and the rich life that has been lived within its walls. As was mentioned already, there have been some significant people with no chair that's felt throughout the Adams who carved the stone saturate of the World War II soldier, which stands in the square by the Monroe County courthouse.
 et cetera, the award-winning scholar and author Robert Perth, the Butler family of winemaking fame, my husband Anthony Kerrigan, national award winner and recipient of the Lifetime Achievement Award for National Endowment for the Humanities, among many other accolades. And I'm also noted in my field, which is operatic performance, production, and direction, with extensive recognition in national and international press as a founder and artistic director of a pioneering indie opera company in New York City.
 I moved to Bloomington from Brooklyn, New York in 1987 to study voice at IU. My husband Anthony Carrigan, whom I married in 1986, lived there with me. He was a poet and a illustrious man of letters, celebrated translator from Spanish to English. As I mentioned, he was a National Book Award winner. He was the senior guest scholar in the Spanish department at IU Bloomington and Notre Dame and South Bend. He received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the National Endowment for the Humanities and with that money, we were able to put a down payment on the house.
 which we were renting from Ann and Gary Steigerwald, and which they had decided to sell. Speaking with them, we also learned that it previously belonged to the Butler family, a local of Miami-Key Payne. We bought it from the Steigerwalds and happily continued living there. My husband fell ill with cancer during the time we were together, and I cared for him with great love until the day in 1991 when he died in my arms at home in Bloomington in our house at 150 East 12th Street.
 His obituaries included in the postscript, which I probably won't read. I stayed until 1993, at which point I returned to New York City and began my career in music and arts. I'm an opera singer, producer, stage director, teacher, and visual artist. I founded an opera company in New York called Vertical Player Repertory. 115 East 12th is the place where I learned to become an opera singer. I studied with Virginia Ziani, Nicola Rosilamania, and Clara Barlow at IU.
 look them up to see what legendary performers they were. Many in the evening, I and my musician friends and colleagues would gather around my beautiful piano, a Weber upright, which I bought at the Smith Holden Music Store, which used to be down near the Irish Lion, which two of us closed, to sing and drink wine and laugh and show off. We had parties with the likes of the great cellist, Janis Starker, the great violinist, Josep Gingold, Duval Vjarran, and Stanley Richie, the pianist, Luke Phelps,
 the Catalan writer Josep Sobre, the Hungarian Man of Letters Mihaly Segedi-Mosa, the Japanese author Sui Jones, the writer and translator Willis Barnstone, the composer John Eaton, a MacArthur Genius Award winner, and his wife, mezzo-soprano Nelda Nelson, the Irish composer Frank Corcoran, and many other deeply accomplished writers, musicians, composers, performers, and intellects from all over the world. It was a real hub.
 in a meeting place, and it was a wonderful, wonderful time. While I was a student, my husband, who was 40 years my senior, had a wildly different schedule from mine. As I slept, he would be awake till 4 AM writing poetry. I would leave in the morning for classes while he slept till noon. He wrote a book of poetry to me there in the house. You can see from his words below how deep our love was. After I returned to New York, I never could afford to come back for any sustained length of time.
 and I couldn't care for the house the way it deserved, but I did take advantage of the time between tenants to come and stay for a few weeks, every two years or so. It has been a refuge for me, not to say a sanctuary, all these years. Whenever I've come back to the house, I've always felt safe and embraced and peaceful, weather gently swinging on the generous porch in the warm breeze, singing in the welcoming acoustic, reading in the sunlight that floods in from all sides through the large windows throughout the day.
 Preparing food in the simple kitchen, which has such comfortable proportions. Bathing in the darlin' cloth, tugging the sauna-locked back bathroom. Sleeping in the northernmost bedroom with the sound of the freight train rumbling by intermittently at night. Or just walking on the beautiful original old floors, which have sustained people's lives and steps for the past many years. I urge the Commission to take my words to heart.
 My neighbors are also distressed at the prospect of the sweet yellow house at 115 East 12th being destroyed. They have many legitimate concerns which deserve attention and consideration. It seems to me that there must be a better way to sustain a healthy community and honor our collective past while providing housing that doesn't destroy the character and history of the city that we love. So much of America has lost its architectural individuality.
 It's within our power to preserve that local character, which still exists one building at a time. I believe that is the mandate of the Bloomington Historic Reservation Commission. And as I said, please feel free to contact me. And I've left my contact information on the letter. And I'd just like to read the text of the plaque that I had made for the front of the house.
 In this house, for a brief eternity, the poet Anthony Kerrigan and the artist Judith Barnes lived and loved, and as a post at the time. After I knew her, my recent death became costumes, future doom entombed, and life after death, an iridescent present of reading
 of her breath. Those words are by Anthony Carrigan. And then a little postscript. And I feel myself as herself being sung or spoken under her breath and tongue. And then there's the obituary from the New York Times. And I'd just like to say that while certainly many, many poems and rooms and structures and dorm rooms and any kind
 dwelling place can have sheltered and embraced significant and deeply felt life. I think that should not be overlooked as a consideration in terms of the value of a home as a piece of architecture. And to speak to the architecture and the architectural importance
 the house, all I can say is that it's in great shape, needs a little TLC, needs a paint job, this, that, the other, needs maybe the kitchen upgraded, hasn't been for the past 40 years. But beyond that, it's a great house. It's a really wonderful house to live in. It has beautiful proportions, and it's peaceful, and it's by the railroad tracks, which I like. And it has a really
 great porch. And I have no idea, except for purely mercenary considerations while someone would want to tear this house down. And I really feel like I failed the house by selling it to the current owner. And had I realized what was in store, I would never have done so.
 And that's what I have to say. Thanks for listening. Thank you. Comments from the public, sir? Do we have any additional questions? Another online comment? I'm not seeing anyone. We have to hand. OK, she's unmuted.
 Hi. Hi. I don't know. Can you guys hear me? We can. Thank you. OK. Thank you. I just downloaded this app. I'm not sure if I can read and keep the call going, in all honesty. So bear with me. Perfect.
 a partial homeowner of 111 East 12th Street. I'm actually sitting on my porch right now, so I do apologize. I've got two dogs inside. So I am speaking on behalf of my mother and grandmother, who I have inherited the house from, and all three of our names are on that house. So let's see. If it's all right, if I could read my,
 I have a letter to you guys. I would really appreciate it. Please go ahead. Okay, thank you. As the longtime property owners of the property directly bordering the subject location to the west, we implore this commission deny steady demolition of this property until concerns of neighbors and surrounding neighborhood residents issues are addressed and potential solutions agreed upon. As property owners ourselves, personally, we would not like to be told what we can or cannot do with our property.
 We understand this. Please know our family have been neighbors with the residents of the subject dwelling for many years since the property at 111 East 12th Street. So we have owned this house for about 50 years, passing ownership and occupancy from aunt to niece to daughter to daughter. It becomes a part of you and your memories. The quaint yellow house next door and its inhabitants have become, ooh, sorry,
 I'm so sorry, have become friends and long-term relationships. They have contributed to the community in various ways, as you will hear or read a statement with what Judith has just shared with you. These relationships, as well as many others developed from homes and residents in the area, are important to the individual's emotional and mental state. These connections and homes have become a sense of security for our families
 We fear losing this, and hear from several other neighborhood members. It would be difficult to make a decision whether or not to demolish a dwelling on your own property. However, it is our understanding the new owner of this property does not live in the area, nor do they live in the city or county. Since we do not know the individual, we can only hope consideration has been taken for the immediate neighborhood and community in which we live. We expect that a neighbor would
 Contemplate future impact to the surrounding area, local culture, tax base, housing regulations, historic landmarks, et cetera. We would like to think sincere thought is given to the potential professors, grad students, and new students routine planning on or attending working at the university and their experiences who might want to live in and be a part of the local charm because that's what we are here, local charm, this community.
 These properties are all located in a collected historic area of Bloomington called High Point. High Point's footprint extends to the 8th Street to 12th Street, encompassing many quaint homes built years ago. It would be a shame to lose any more Bloomington history. We are concerned with the rapid purchase and demolitions being requested by the buyer, as indicated by the three locations on your agenda for this meeting on Thursday, August 14th. At the speed in which these actions are being taken, a little consideration has been
 given to the existing homeowners. We are concerned that the bottom line is strictly business related. We are concerned for the individuals in the small residential neighborhood cannot compete with a real estate developer and the historic flavor of the region being lost. We appeal to you, the Bloomington Historic Preservation Commission, to oppose demolition and call for renovation or at least postpone this demolition until all concerns of the opposing neighbors are addressed and a solution consensus found.
 Since our house has directly defied the subject property and will be directly affected by this potential demolition. And the thought of a modernized building taking the place of the small city charm home as mentioned in the FC Tucker's description noted on the internet page of the High Point neighborhood brings a sense of dread. Two heartfelt letters about the home have been sent to you with earnest pleas to consider the yellow house as more than just an immoral business and allow it to stand for future tenants in the residence or
 residents to enjoy the section of Bloomington, as is Judith Barnes, our friend and previous owner of 115 East 12th Street, and then Amy Butler, who has penned a passionate story of her husband's family with emotional ties to the cute, quiet 1920s bungalow as well. Our emotional ties are to the comfort and security at hold as it sits nearing our own home. Our association
 to the mentioned individuals is far more important and cannot be dismissed. These two have been graduate students and long-term residents who offer their own personality to the neighborhood. They have raised and shared vegetables. Simply cards and gifts have been left on our doorstep when our pets have passed away. These connections are endearing and their emotions felt as we must strongly support the renovation of this property in lieu of demolition on their behalf as well.
 Although the purchase of 115 East 12th Street was made in May, we find it interesting how the timing of the survey and placing of the sign in the front of the house was only a few days prior to your meeting date. We are skeptical about the intentions of this developer. It appears that they are rushing the process and trying to influence you to make a swift decision. Although a petition has not yet been complied due to the brevity of the notification, comments of neighbors have been collected during these few days,
 A lot prior to the meeting, and at least some names of these in our opposing will be noted by Amy Butler. Ours are among these right here, a list of concerns. Indeed, the brevity of notice about this demolition, although we realize the house was sold in May of this year, we are not informed of the intent to demolish until last week when holes were dug next to the sidewalk, actually posing a danger for those walking or behind the lawnmower while mowing our property or theirs.
 until states were placed two days later on potential property lines and placed within your, and placed with your commission's name and number, sorry, your car, to be called when issues was placed in the front yard. No other notification made. So we have, you know, not have communication whatsoever. A possible theory has been made why no other notification was made because this action was intended to be quiet for many reasons. Unsure
 The new owner or representative would allow all the windows wide open with the rain on the forecast possibly to allow damage with inspections warranting demolition. They were not that way previous to the new owner when Judith left. Although wide open windows, no lights were left on, this potentially invites homeless individuals who stop by the pizza business to climb in creating an unsafe environment for neighbors. Four, intention of new owner. Since the new owner
 does not live in High Point neighborhood, the city of Bloomington, or the county of Monroe, will they rebuild an appropriate style home to meet High Point neighborhood standards, charms, aesthetic, culture, city of Bloomington, assessment, and tax base for the area? If not renovating, or even if decision is made to actually renovate, their intention to inspect and disclose any hazardous building materials to be broken down, i.e. assess deciding lead paint, lead pipes, mercury, PCB, mold,
 silica dust, et cetera, to neighbors or appropriate authorities. Attention to appropriately level or renovate the existing dwelling according to 1926-1101 OSHA regulations encapsulating and disclosure without exposure to any resident or pet in dwelling of 111 East 12th Street or the surrounding houses. Follow-up of enforcement of this OSHA code made by home. It would be nice to have contact information for that.
 considering demolition and construction noises living right next door. Please note that current zoning has allowed a pizza restaurant to take up business behind these residential homes on 12th Street, even to the point of relocating a dumpster within 20 feet of our back doors. This has allowed homeless people, rats, wildlife, et cetera, to congregate at all hours of our take of the discarded food products and often large numbers in pizza boxes on top of the dumpster to our dismay.
 We are stating this concern for planning purposes, not having much confidence in the current office's decision for this neighborhood's longevity. We do not intend to sell our property for any sort of demolition or development of an apartment complex with the collection of property purchases on the corner of 12th Street. We intend to continue to live in this area that poses a close proximity to downtown employment, local restaurants, city charm, and a quick drive to the lake, country nights, the full moons, and lightning bugs. Thank you for your consideration, my grandma Irma, my mom Cheryl, and myself Erin.
 Thank you. I hope I wasn't too speedy, but I was trying to get through it. It's all good. Thank you much. I'm on the clock. It's fine. Do we have anybody else online that has comments? I think that's it. All right. What's your name, for the record, please? My name is Dr. John Butler.
 And I'd like to speak today with three reasons to deny the demolition project for 115 East 12th Street. The first reason is procedural one. The builder, developer, Mr. G, the realtor, I'm not sure who is responsible, but they have not followed the formal process required to designate the property for demolition. I believe you're required to mark the property lines before you do this. They have failed to do this.
 They did mark property lines, but it was not a legal survey. The adjoining property owners did not receive a 20 day prior notice, which you need to do in the state of Indiana for it to be a legal survey. And the property lines that they have marked are four feet off of the existing lot. It's only a 66 foot wide lot. So to be off by four feet is incredible for a professional surveyor.
 At best, this is inaccurate, sloppy, and unprofessional. At worst, this is illegal and fraudulent. And so I think, number one, the request should be denied because they've not met the basic requirements set forward to even have this demolition here. Number two, I think the property should be saved based on its merits. I believe it qualifies for being saved from demolition in both of your metrics. It is a historically significant building that should be saved.
 because of its architecture and is also a culturally important building that should be saved. It's an excellent example of a simple working person's home. It's 100 years old this year. It's arts and crafts style, California sub-style. Its exterior is architecturally pure.
 It does have asbestos siding that needs to be removed, and at one time it had a broader eave that stuck out from the front of the building. But those are the only two things on the exterior of the building that have been modified in the last 100 years. Furthermore, this is part of an uninterrupted string of houses from Candyland, the name of the house, on the west of 12th Street, all the way to Lincoln, two blocks to the east.
 These houses have stood in this neighborhood with no new additions in this zone for my entire lifetime. This is one of the most architecturally pure streets left on the north side of Bloomington, east of Walnut. The building, the structure is listed as contributing, but to lose any one of these houses would be a blow to the whole string of houses.
 And so in that respect, I think, architecturally, it should be safe. Furthermore, 12th Street sits at the end of Washington. Walking down Washington is like walking down a architectural who's who tour of Bloomington. You've got the Showers Brothers houses, and you have all these former mayor's houses, all these wonderful houses, these big, impressive houses. But by the time you get to 12th Street, you've got to the common man's houses.
 the working man's houses. And these are the houses that are the hardest for us to preserve. It's asking an awful lot from a common dwelling to exhibit extraordinary or uncommon architectural features. So we have to somehow learn how to include modest houses and the experiences of modest people in our saving of historic properties.
 And if we can include these common, unexceptional houses, then we can save our architectural heritage. It's only when all these common houses are lost that then, by some metrics, they would be worth including on the list. We have to somehow figure out a way to save these based on their architectural merit before they're all lost. Culturally, I think this house has an even better argument to be saved.
 It's just one of the most exceptional little houses in the whole city. And I don't make this argument lightly. I'm a historian. I'm a PhD historian, and I study Indiana history, Monroe County history, and Bloomington history in particular. And so when I'm looking at these houses, and there's a lot of houses because that's actually where my specialty lies in landscape and transportation history,
 When I look at these houses, it's rare to find a house that has a list of people like this. Ivan Adams, who's already been mentioned, owned the house from 1927 to 1945. He is one of Monroe County's most accomplished stone carvers. And if we could save one stone carver's house, this should be the house we save. Adams' work is known locally.
 It's known at the state level, it was known nationally. We've already heard the list of the things that he's done. But I would actually like to also read one line from his obituary, which said that he was one of Monroe County's most famous stone carvers. Adams lived in the house from 1927 to 1945.
 Robert Quirk has also been mentioned. He was a professor of Mexican history, the editor of the American History Review, recipient of the Frederick Jackson Turner Award. He lived there from 1955 to 56. In 1977, James and Susan Butler, my parents, purchased the house. And I lived there as well. And it was in this home that Butler Winery was started. And Butler Winery is the first winery founded in the city limits of Bloomington. It's now the fourth oldest winery in the state.
 James Butler was the head of the Indiana Wine Growers Guild, which is the professional organization. He was also head of the Indiana Wine Grape Council, and was instrumental in expanding and sustaining the Indiana wine industry. He has received the Sagamore of the Wabash Award, which is the highest award an Indiana governor can bestow upon a citizen recognizing distinguished service to the state. And Judith Barnes,
 is a nationally and internationally recognized opera singer and teacher. Anthony Kerrigan was a nationally renowned poet, translator, winner of the National Endowment for the Humanities Lifetime Achievement Award, and internationally known scholar. He died in the house. Gary Neff, longtime owner of Repair Works, which was the watch repair shop in the college mall, also resided in the house after he
 sold off repair works or closed down repair works. He went on to work at Cook Medical Products where he has received several medical patents for stents. If you have a stent installed in you in the future, I hope you don't, but if you ever do, Gary perfected and improved that stent so it's now safer and you will have a better chance of surviving. This is an amazing list of citizens for this tiny little house.
 I mean, think about it. What other house, square inch per square inch, could have a better pedigree? What other place deserves a better? I mean, you have a lever to pull, this cultural lever. What other place can you imagine that would be better than this little house, this little house of simple people? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. My name's Matt.
 Dr. Stephen Ball had, in October of 1981, I bought, went on 90s to walk two doors down, nicknamed Candyland, and it was in total disrepair. When I saw the oak woodwork and the original floors and stuff, I knew that something could come of this. So I spent thousands and thousands of dollars in calluses, and people helped me and stuff, brought it back to life. And the majority of the houses on,
 12th Street needed a lot of work. Over the decades, over 44 years, I saw this house come from the depths to, it's like from hell to heaven. Look at this one. I got pictures. I took the houses across the street with these little old ladies who lived, but they couldn't fix it. And they just, it was what a transformation on 12th Street, these houses, just from the depths to wonderful places. And I just can't imagine
 a little speck of it gone on 12th Street, that speck would be a boulder in my mind, and not a pretty boulder. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I will read three brief statements. I'll make my own statement.
 briefly, I'm not that connected to this little house. I live only a block east of this little house. What's your name, sir? My name is James Ford. Thank you. These people have tried to contact me trying to buy my house. These people have been somewhat parasitic in trying to get properties in the neighborhood. You have let them take two in the corner of 11th and Grant not too long ago, which they're probably going to tear down now. On my way over here, I found out
 They've also acquired four more at the corner of 11th and Lincoln. Our neighborhood is being brutalized by this same group of people. I'm not so interested in saving this house. I'd like to save the neighborhood, and I would like to put a stall on this while we go through the process of having the neighborhood designated as something. I know that on the books, I've seen the Cottage Grove Historic District. There are websites from the city that talk about it.
 But I don't know if that's a real thing or not, if we really have a historic district. But it includes this house and all of our houses. I would like that clarified. What is the Cottage Grove Historic District? So I will read these comments. This is from a man. He's a retired vice president of Cook Medical. He lives a block south of this. My wife, Cynthia, and I live at 7. This is Tom Roberts.
 My wife Cynthia and I live at 714 North Washington, which is part of High Point neighborhood. I'm writing to let you know Cynthia and I oppose the demolition of 115E12. We would much rather houses like the one be remodeled to encourage a return to owner-occupied residences in the area. In fact, the house we have was once rented to college students. Unfortunately, previous owners, Tom and Sue Dukeman, bought the house, remodeled it, and then sold it to us.
 We love the neighborhood. We don't mind sharing it with students at all. However, once demolished, and assuming the location becomes some sort of multiplex, the chance of that location being owner-occupied will be lost. Thank you for your efforts toward maintaining High Point's character. All the best. Tom Roberts. Second is from Rebecca Swanson. She owns 807 North Lincoln, which is on the southwest corner of Lincoln and 12th Street.
 Thank you for reaching out. I am indeed disappointed, but not surprised to hear of demolition in our neighborhood. I wish I could say I knew John McCormick. He was recently a deceased man who lived next door. But somehow our paths did not cross unless I knew of him. At one point, our neighborhood was a pretty tight-knit group, and we regularly had maintained, staved off some big developments. It became exhausting.
 Since I bought my cute bungalow at 12th and Lincoln in early 2000, there have been so many intrusive developments. The Fox building on the corner of 10th and Walnut, the demolition of High Point shopping building, and the development of that horrible and huge apartment building. The hideous red house on the corner of Lincoln and 11th was crushing for me. It was such a cute little white house with a turret in South Savannah.
 We did make some victories. The brick house that serves as the office for the previously mentioned apartment on Walnut was going to be demolished, and we were able to get the city to tell the developers they could not move it and could not demolish it. I had hoped that Old Northeast, which is the larger neighborhood that High Point is a part of, would revert back to homeowner buildings
 and stop being strictly student rentals. But I guess its proximity to IU is just too convenient. She wants to express her disappointment. Lastly, this is a woman who lives in Carmel. She owns a couple rentals in the neighborhood. I am glad you called. Always great to hear from people living on campus. As I mentioned, I will not be in attendance to the meeting.
 But I am interested in what the developers are doing, not only close to the properties I own, but in the town of Bloomington. Four of my five children received a great education at IU, and my husband ran track and field for the university many years ago. I am opposed to progress, however, I believe there is a way to do it effectively. I have a concern for the property being demolished at 717 North Grant, these are the ones that I referred to previously, as I own 719 North Grant.
 Typically, the process is not approved overnight. And as we know, once construction begins, it is difficult to stop. Please add my name to the list opposing this project as it stands currently, Debbie Rosenberg of Rose Low Properties. I don't have anything more to say on my own except that I hope that we can stall this and receive some advice about how to go forward in designating our neighborhood formally as something that can be protected
 from these effectively vulture people. Your house and my house are like 98 years old. Mine's 98 years old. Mine was built in 1914. 1914. God, it's old. All right, I'm done. Thank you. Good job. I would like to ask a question. Yeah. How long are you supposed to have the demolition sign up for the meeting?
 It's supposed to be put up the day that petitioners meet with us. And the deadline for getting an item onto a commission meeting is 12 days in advance. Those signs were not put up in that timeline. They were put up within seven days. A week ago. That's not true. Yes, it is. I was there on Friday. It was put up the day we met.
 I was there on Friday. It was not marked. There were no survey markers. There were no signs. Well, survey was the sign up? The criteria is not the survey markers. It's the blue and white sign. Yeah, it was up. It's been up for one week. I guess something that I should clarify about this part of the process is this is not the application for the demolition permit itself. But in order to get the demolition permit, it has to be released from this process.
 But if the process hasn't been followed, then how can you move forward? So the question is, has the sign been up long enough? It's been up one week. I live next door. I actually own the house next door. I own John McCormick's house. He used to live there with his mom, Peggy. He lived there since the 50s. We could also ask Erin. She lives next door the other way.
 You know, for the survey, we never were notified 20 days before a survey was done. The survey is three foot and eight inches onto my property. The survey is not, I mean, that's not something that we deal with. OK. Well, either way, it's put significantly into my property on a 66-foot wide lot. These property lines have been established since 1925 when the plat map was written up. It's clear. If you measure from the west side, it will be wrong because dominoes
 like on that end, has been widened. If you measure from the east side, we know exactly where the property line is, and their marker is clearly wrong. They only measured from the west when they put their marker. That's something to take up with planning. We're here for the house. Yeah, I am too. And I would like to point out that these are the same people that are doing all the other houses around. They're tearing down single-family homes to put in these multiplexes into our neighborhoods. I had six days. I've written over 50 emails.
 I have made numerous phone calls. I went to the recorder's office. I spent an hour with a guy at city planning. I am exhausted. I was going to prepare a statement for this. I don't have it in me anymore. I can't do anything else for this house. I had six days to fight this. I would like to you guys to possibly delay this. We're denied. We're denied. Denied. That's cultural marriage.
 I want to see, ma'am. What is your name? My name's Amy Butler, and I'm the property owner at 127 East 12th Street. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I apologize for being a little upset. It's been a hell of a week. I hear you. No worries. Jeremy. I'd like to make a motion, if that's OK. I would love to hear a motion. I would move that demolition delay 2518 be recommended for formal review
 by staff. Seems like we have a lot more information that has been presented to us here that I think we need some time to digest, look at, verify. And then it sounds like there's also an interest in the community itself for maybe getting that area designated. So I'd like for this to be held up for formal review. Discussion? Any comments?
 No, I couldn't do it. I could go along with that. All right. Did you call the roll? Melody Duesner. Yes. Yes to save notice. Yes for review. Yes for review. Recommend for formal review. Yes. OK. Jeremy Hacker. Yes. Jack Baker. Yes.
 Sam de Saller. Yes. Daniel Schlegel. Yes. Ernesto Castaneda. Yes. Motion carries 6-0. That's it. That's it. You got work to do. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam.
 115 East 12th Street, the Historic Preservation Commission declares that it received notice of proposed demolition and requests that staff prepare a formal report on the property and put the property on the HPC agenda to be officially considered for local historic designation under BMC 8.08.01, parentheses D. All right. So let me get my caveats.
 That does not guarantee that this house will be designated. It is a great little house. I'm an architect. It's a great little house. It's very clear. It reminds me of a little house. We lived in Berkeley in this 1,000 square foot thing that it, yeah, I love this house. That said, by itself, it may not merit designation. It may, given the information that no one may or may not find. In the meantime, get yourselves organized
 and talk to Noah about organizing your entire neighborhood to decide who wants to be a part of, who doesn't want to be a part of, and how to become an historic district. That will be very hard with the absentee language. It will be. We will try. We will do the best. That is the mechanism that is the most powerful way to protect your neighborhood. And if it comes from you, that's where the power is. And we will do what we can to help.
 But it's a lettered room. Take a drive down 12th Street, some nice Sunday afternoon. Look at the people in the garage. The houses have done. Yeah, I know. Thank you. Can they not come to our subcommittee meeting? Oh, yeah. So the first Thursday of every month, we have
 a subcommittee meeting at the Monroe County History Center right on Kirkwood. It's in the old. Six in Washington. Oh, sorry. Six in Washington? Yeah, it's in Carnegie. Oh, it's back up. It's back up. Yeah, OK. But we have our meetings there and talk about just this kind of stuff. So come on by, and we'll talk you through what we talked to you. First Thursday. What time? It's at 4 o'clock. 4. The first Thursday of the month?
 The other thing is the clock. So talk to them about how long they have for this process. For the demolition delay, if it ordinarily lasts for 90 days from the posting of the sign,
 it can be extended by an extra 30 days with the permission of the director of the Department of Housing and Neighborhood Development. So if this house individually is not designated, that's the timeline. The house should be individually designated. It has the merits. But the whole neighborhood should be safe as well. That's much stronger. Yeah, it's much stronger.
 people here who have led and participated in protecting the modest homes in their own neighborhoods. So we know what we're talking about. We can show you models. We can get that. You talked about a group of houses between 1 8th and 12th. Get us numbers of houses. Make a little map. I mean, even if it's just a sketch, bring that kind of
 information to the meeting. And to Noah. Yeah, Noah should be the first. So Noah has a map of the so-called historic district of Cottage Grove. What was that? I don't know why it was called historic district, but because it hasn't been designated either for a national, state, or local register, there's a Cottage Grove study area, which is an area that was identified a long time ago.
 by the state survey as being potentially eligible for the creation of a district. So at some point, a previous... Somebody who wrote... Yeah. It's not listed on our list of historic districts, but the... Yeah. There was... The walking tour was labeled as Cottage Grove Historic District. I would have to...
 either rewrite the document or get it listed as a district, in which case it is the Codge Grove is your district. They have a group at Bloomington BRI group. They might have. They've done the surveys in the past. I will also mention that Steve Wyatt has reached out to the new owners of 115 East 12th Street. I'm just putting that out there because that's information that I received.
 Is there any way anyone can get a hold of the owners of 115th 12th Street and have them close the windows? Yes. We sent somebody out there today from Housing and Neighborhood Development. Aaron's wanting to speak. Yes. You're unmuted, Aaron. Oh, thank you. Sorry, I wasn't trying to compete. But I did speak with Noah today. And he said, I filed a you report for getting those windows shut because they've been open.
 the whole time, and I just think that's absurd. I think it's a little questionable that the windows have been left open, because if you did genuinely care about this place that you put so much money into, you would think that if you were left to, if it wasn't demolished, that you'd want to shut those windows and save yourself some money. But I don't know. I just think, speaking to what I see. OK, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I just really want to say thank you.
 Thank you. And thank you all for coming in, because this is how these things get saved or not. We're trying. Yeah. Thank you. It's been a long six days. Thank you so much. Thank you guys for your time. Thank you. Judith wants to go on mute. OK. Yeah, thank you. Thanks.
 Is my participation helpful at all? I mean, can I participate in this movement going forward, even though I no longer actually have a material claim in the neighborhood, only spiritual? OK. I mean, there's no reason that you can't participate. Just, I mean, as long as you're clear that you're not currently a homeowner in the neighborhood.
 You can help organize, you can help these people get their stuff together. And I think that is the most effective way of being involved. So if you have neighbors, if you have friends, if you have people in that neighborhood and you can get them together and get them organized to do something, that's what you do. And just I wanted to also mention what I put in the chat that Alexander Landerman, Alexander Lee Landerman,
 He was my tenant for a number of years, and he loved the house. And unfortunately, he bought another house. But he's a person of note as well. He's a really accomplished artist. You can look him up, go to his website, and he's a professor at IU now. He was not at the time. He was a grad student. So I'm also looking to get some more statements from other people.
 And are statements valuable even if they're not from people in the neighborhood? They are, right? People who spent time there or other people. Particularly if they deal with the architectural significance or the historical, like the social significance, that's rarely what we're looking at. Yeah, the cultural, historical significance of this particular house. Yep. At this time, yeah. Yep. And then people working on the neighborhood, the same thing of if they're able to talk about that sort of thing as well.
 That's what we have to base our decisions on. Yeah. We have legal criteria that we have to follow. And it's cultural, historical, architectural. If you can do that and tie it to the houses, tie it to the neighborhoods, that's a help. And future use is not anything we can consider. Yeah. It doesn't. We are bad. We cannot do that. We cannot be prejudiced if they want to tear it down and build whatever they want to build. We don't know.
 And we cannot care. We have to base it on what there is in front of us now, and what that house is, who was in it, and how it was used, and how architecturally significant it is, if that makes sense. OK. All right. Yeah. Thanks for our comments on that. Well, thank you. Thanks for hearing us. And thanks, everyone. You're welcome. All right. Have a good night. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you, Google. Bye. Bye. Good night. We still have more.
 All right, we have more things. Well, we have our quorum. Old Business, I'd like to bring up violations. There's two outstanding violations now. One is Windows at 702 West Kirkwood. We had sent up a follow-up note saying that if we do not receive a COA or have the windows replaced,
 by the deadline established in that letter, which was 30 days. Then fines will be levied. I did get an email back from one of the owners of the house today basically asking what next steps are. So speaking of this will come in sort of as, actually speaking of new business, this ties into my other new business or kind of old business. I was out today at the state fair because
 City of Bloomington got a couple of certificates acknowledging the listing of Cascades Park on the National Register of Historic Places. So I went up there with Tim Street, director of the planning department. Yeah, Parks and Rec. Sorry, not planning. Parks and Rec is considering whether they might want to get a sign from Jeremy's old workplace, Indiana Historical Bureau. Get a state historical marker for the site. Could happen.
 Can we help with that? I could certainly write to her. I've offered to help take a look at things. I used to run the program. So I'll let you know if they go forward with that. Shoot, my computer died. Well, that's it. Does anybody have any old or new business they'd like to bring up? Sorry, it's that border. I think that might be it.
 Thank you all for your patience, your fortitude. And this was... No, we haven't. But I think this merits a long one. And yeah, I just want to say thank you all for everything you did tonight. So I really appreciate it. We are adjourned.