I'm calling the October 23rd, 2025 meeting of the Blooming Historic Preservation Commission to order.
Tonda, will you call the roll? Certainly. Duncan Campbell. Karen Duffy. Here. Drew Heron. Here.
Jeff Baker. Here. Jeremy Hackard. Here. Ernesto Castaneda. Reynard Cross. Here. Sam DeSolar.
Melanie Duesner. Here. Daniel Schlegel. Here. We have Quorum.
All right, next up is approval of the minutes. Do we have a motion? I'll move to approve the minutes.
Okay, do we have a second? I'll second. Okay, it's been moved and seconded. We'll go ahead and take
a vote on the minutes. Jack Baker? Yes. Jeremy Hacker? Abstain. Ernesto Castaneda's not here.
Renard Cross? Yes. Sam DeSolars not here. Melanie Dusner? Yes.
Daniel Schlegel? Yes. Minutes have been approved. Excellent. Next up, we have staff review for COAs.
We have one staff review certificate of appropriateness tonight. That is item COA 2569. The address
is 210 East Gilbert Drive in the Matlock Heights Historic District. Petitioner is Mary Ellen May. This
is a 1955 ranch house that has undergone some exterior
changes to fenestration and I set back from the street behind a stacked stone wall. The proposal is
for the installation of an array of rooftop solar panels. Staff approved COA 2569. The proposed rooftop
solar array places panels on contours that fit the pitch of the roof. Because the current roofing material
is asphalt shingle,
There is no additional concern about damaging or obscuring more significant character-defining roofing
material. So we'll move on to commission-reviewed certificates of appropriateness. So in this section
for the COAs and demolition delays for each item, the Historic Preservation Program Manager will first
present a staff report. We will then hear if the petitioner has any additional information, followed
by a round of questions from each commissioner. We ask that petitioners, the public,
And commissioners refrain from speaking until addressed by the chair, unless the question is directly
addressed to them. If a member of the public or petitioner wishes to comment please raise your hand
until recognized by the chair, me. Once a motion is made we will then open up discussion of the item
for members of the commission. We encourage all commissioners petitioners and members of the public
to be civil and respectful at all times.
Our first commissioner viewed item of the evening for 212 West Kirkwood Avenue in the Courthouse Square
Historic District. Petitioner is John Walker. The petitioner and I met earlier today, and he requested
that this item be continued as he'd like to make some changes to his proposal. So the petitioner,
I believe, is not present tonight. So if they're not present, it automatically continues. Yes. Mm-hmm. OK.
Okay. Moving on to the next item, COA 2571. Oh no, I got the wrong address there. It's in the agenda.
Okay. Address is 407 East 4th Street in the Greater Restaurant Row Historic District. Petitioner is
David Kamen.
This is a request for retroactive approval for the installation of a chain link fence at the side of
the property. I see here. Is the petitioner present? Yes. In September 2025, a chain link fence was
erected between 405 and 409 East 4th Street to non-contributing properties in the Restaurant Road Historic District.
While the fence meets planning code for the area, and I believe the petitioner has spoken with the planning
department, before this was brought to my attention, I was brought to the attention of staff that a
COA had not been issued prior to construction. You'll see that there's a letter from the petitioner
in the packet, which I hope you had a chance to read. Mr. Kingman, is there anything you'd like to add? OK.
Staff recommends approval of COA 2571. While the Greater Restaurant Route Historic District Guidelines
do not offer specific guidelines for fences not located at the front of a property or associated with
outdoor seating area, this new fence is nevertheless visible from the public right of way.
It is understandable then that this may lead to some confusion over whether or not this alteration would
be subject to commission review.
Considering that this proposed proposed fence does not obstruct the street facing facade of the building
On either side and that chain link fences are common in this district staff recommends a retroactive
approval All right, thank you Noah any comments from the public All right, Jack do you have any questions Yeah, the
I don't know if I can phrase it as a question, but the gentleman says he wasn't told by any other city
department that he needed to get a CLA. And he didn't think that given the location and type of buildings
involved, it might require one. I guess I have to ask just no one along the line said anything about
needing a CLA for this fence.
And if that's the case, then I'm inclined to be quite lenient about the retroactive approval of the
fence. That's a question and comment at the same time. Do you have any other information about the,
I guess, interaction with the planning department? I met with the planning department a couple of times
after this was brought to my attention. And I had met with the petitioner.
Beforehand, I think, I don't believe that they were looking at the district die lines, which again,
is somewhat confusingly phrased. I think the question was more whether or not this would count as visible
from the public right of way, because it's not on a street facing facade. And that space between the
two buildings is not an alley, even though there's an alley in the rear of the building behind the lot.
Melody, any questions? Yeah. Bernard? Firstly, is it visible from the street? Right. Oh, yes. So does
it matter whether it's on the street-facing side of the building, or is it attached to the building
and is visible from the street? What's the standard? Well, it is visible from the public right of way,
which is why there needs to be review.
where some of the confusion comes from is in the district guidelines. On the guidelines they have relating
to fences, they say that a fence should not obscure the street-facing facade of a building, which is
where the language about street-facing facade comes in. Also, the section on fencing is tied into the
area on outdoor seating and fencing areas.
Okay, so just a question. If the guidelines for the district does not speak to a thing, do you still
need a COA even if it's visible from the public right of way? I'm gonna see if I can find the language
here. Okay, so the guidelines do apply to all exterior alterations visible from the public right of way.
including a new construction of principal or accessory structures or other structures visible, subject
to view from the public right of way. Okay, so even though it doesn't speak to fences, it is a structure
that's visible right away. My next question would be, is the petitioner here? Yes. How long have you
owned the property? I think around
14 years, maybe a little bit more. Right, and in 14 years, you've never come across anything that would
lead you to believe, well, to know that you're in a historic district. No, and I don't want to throw
my architect under the bus, but we were pretty careful. I don't want to even mention his name, but I
had the architect look into it and he said, you're good. Planning, as Noah said, said you don't need a permit.
I had even met with Tim Klatt to make sure that there was no other escape hazards and this and that.
So I try to be careful that that's what happened. If somebody would have said, come here, I would have.
This is only the second time we've been in business, sorry. Let me see, the 49th of the year,
50, no, it's 51st year, something like that. And I've only been, I think, in front of you guys once,
and it happened to be this year too, because we had at 1st Street, 1017 East 1st Street, the city handset
fixed something, and we fixed it. And I didn't know any better, and we came here,
We actually did it right, though. We fixed it nice. We had fixed it right. You see, whereas I could
appreciate the first time you made an alteration and not recognizing that you're in a historic district.
You came here and you went through the process. I would think that the second time you're making an
alteration,
into a building, something would say to you, you know, let me make sure because of this previous experience,
let me just make sure that I don't have to do this thing again. That's my first point. My second point
is every year almost, I get something from hand in the mail about being in a historic district,
you know, a little postcard, right? Almost, you send them out every year, right?
and you've owned it for 14 years and you've never gotten a communication from Han, that little postcard
that Han sends out that says your property is in a historic district. You've never gotten one.
I don't know. Obviously, I don't remember one. Can I say one more thing? Sure. If it's in Elm Heights,
our last case was in Elm Heights, we will check because I know it's now historic as it may be. So I
do know that.
Here, like I said, we checked it. I would hope at some point, either hand or city planning would bring
it up when we inquire about things. It would make things a little bit easier. Because if we inquire,
they're a body of the city. They are working in the same building, so it would have been a question
for somebody to say, hey, you got a historic issue here.
You know, that's my last question. Got it. Karen, question. I don't have any questions. Daniel. Drew.
No, I don't have any questions either. I don't have any questions either. So would anybody like to make
a motion? Any questions online? I already asked for questions earlier. Oh, you did? Nobody's online.
Somebody else pop up motion to approve 25 coa 25 71 Is there a second I'll second Okay, let's talk about
it Jack. Do you have any comments? No more comments melody? Do you have comments? No Bernard
Whereas I can understand that not everyone experiences the city is the same. I just, as a regular homeowner,
just doing a repair on my home, came to find out really quickly two things. One, that I was in a historic
district. And secondly, within Bloomington, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
And I learned that really quickly. I got a permit to demolish a structure. And days later, I got a letter
stating that the structure was in violation and I was going to be fined because the porch roof was falling.
And it was approved for demolition. The fire department came and wanted to do fire drills on the house
because it was going to come down.
So there are at least two departments in the government that knew that this house was slated for demolition.
But Hand was sending me a letter stating that, oh, the porch is falling, so you're in violation, and
they're going to find you. And I learned that within the first three years of living in Bloomington.
I find it difficult that you can be a property owner in Bloomington with two properties in historic
districts, one of which
you've owned for 14 years and had no idea that that property was in a historic district. I find that
difficult. And well, I would certainly recommend that this be treated as a violation and whatever sanctions
that are seen fit to apply to the situation.
be applied. Sorry, you've been here already. You've had the experience. Something should have said to
you, hey, before I do this other thing, let me check with Han. Let me check with the HPC. Karen? Yeah,
I'm done. OK, just want to make sure I don't want to interrupt. Karen? I don't have any problem with this.
going through being approved because, well, for several reasons, I think the nature of the placement
of the fence on the alley and the guidelines between the position of it not being across the front.
It's at the back. I had to look twice to even find it when I went to check it out. And I can see why
somebody would say,
you don't need to have this reviewed, and particularly with the guidelines being confusing. So I would
not advise my colleagues to assign any kind of a violation and would like to see it approved. It seems
a great solution, and it's nice and neat and tidy. It doesn't harm any adjacent structures. So that's
all I have to say.
Yeah, I agree with what Jack said earlier and what Karen said. Yeah, I'm kind of in that same agreement
while I have some agreement with what Renard was saying that there should be some way to find out. But
he then also had other advisors stating that it wasn't going to be a problem, which then lead to a lot
of other miscommunications in that part. So the fact that it was done in a neat and orderly fashion
along with the standards that it was required, I don't see a problem with it at all.
Okay, as for me, I think this speaks to something we've encountered a few times where someone talks
to one part of hand and gets one answer, but it's not the right answer. And that seems like that happened
again. So I feel like they were checking in with folks, and I was confused on the guidelines when I
was reading them too, thinking that these sort of changes only apply to a historic structure with a
conspicuous change. And this is a non-contributing structure.
There's another section where it talks about, well, actually it needs to, you also review a structure
from view from a public way. So I was kind of misinterpreting what these things were. So I can understand
where the petitioner is coming from on that. Okay. I think that's the end of the comments. So I think
we're ready to vote. Sure. There's a motion on the floor for COA 2571. It's been moved and seconded.
Go ahead and take a vote. Jack Baker? Yes. Jeremy Hacker? Yes. Renard Cross? Yes. Melanie Dusner? Yes.
Daniel Schlegel? Yes. That motion passes 5-0-0. All right. Moving on to demolition delay. This is another item.
that we saw at the last meeting where the petitioners told me that they will not be attending this meeting
because they're still taking time to assess the structural stability of the limestone and structural
steel loading dock at the site and trying to figure out whether it might be moved to a different location
at the site. So as I had mentioned in the previous meeting on October 9th,
they would like to come back on November 13th. Do we need to make a motion to move that? No,
it'll automatically be continued. Okay. It's easier to see it now. Yeah, I got some better pictures.
I think the one in the packet you have here is a little clearer.
Well, I'd rather than be fully prepared to talk to us. Yeah. Muddle through something. So then next
up is the designation. Yes. Okay. So this item has been publicly noticed, um, in the, in it with an
advertisement in the Herald Times, uh, more than 10 days prior to this meeting. Um, this is for an item
that was voted for designation, um, at a previous, uh, commission meeting.
and because of the requirement for one having a map and an ordinance to send to City Council and two
for having, you know, proper prior notice. There's going to be a second vote on forwarding the staff
recommendation, map, and ordinance for 115 East 12th Street, the Ivan Adams House to Bloomington City
Council to vote for designation as a local historic district.
Just in terms of process for this, Noah will do the staff report first. We'll let the owners have any
comments at that point. Then we'll open it up for public comment. We ask that people, when they're making
their comments, limit your comments to three minutes in length. Then after that, we'll go through and
do the commissioner questions. We'll take a motion, comments, and vote. Does that make sense? Okay.
All right, go ahead. The property at 115 East 12th Street qualifies for local designation under the
following highlighted criteria found in ordinance 9520 of the municipal code 1A for having significant
character interest or value as part of the development heritage or cultural characteristics of the city,
state, or nation, or is associated with a person who has played a significant role in local, state,
or national history. The case background
115 East 12th Street is a gable-front, one-story California bungalow that retains most of its original
features but has been recited in white asbestos board. The house was first owned between 1927 and 1945
by Ivan Adams and his wife Gladys. Ivan ranked among the most prominent local stone carvers whose work
includes the Bloomington Courthouse World War II Memorial, the IU seal at Foster Quad Dorm,
contributions to the columns and frieze on the Fine Arts Palace for the Chicago Century Progress Exhibition
in 1933, the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, DC, the 21-foot statue of Our
Lady of Lourdes Hospital at Camden Hill in Camden, New Jersey, sorry, Indian Hill in Camden, New Jersey,
and various other statues of the Virgin Mary and Catholic Saints for institutions around the country,
a monumental statue of
him marks, sorry, a monumental statue of his, marks the grave of Gladys and himself at Rose Hill Cemetery.
Adams' Herald Time, sorry, Herald Telephono-Bituary in 1968 describes him as one of Monroe County's
most famous stone carvers. And in 1977, local carver Ronald Wampler described him as one of the greatest
stone carvers in the area I've ever known.
After Adams moved out, the house was rented out for the next 30 years to a number of tenants, most of
whom did not stay longer than several years. One of the most prominent occupants was Robert Quirk, a
professor of Mexican history and editor of the American History Review. He was a recipient of the Frederick
Jackson Turner Award for debut books by historians and lived at this location from 1955 through 1956.
In 1977, the house was the first Bloomington residence of James and Susan Butler,
founders of Butler Winery. From 1987 through 1991, the home was the residence of opera student Judith
Barnes and visiting lecturer in Spanish, Anthony Kerrigan. Kerrigan won the National Book Award in 1975
for his translation of Miguel de Namo's Agony of Christianity and a senior fellowship in literature
from the National Endowment of Humanities for a lifelong contribution to American letters in 1988.
He was the first to translate the Spanish writings of Jorge Luis Borges into English and taught at both
IU and Notre Dame while living at 115 East 12th Street. For a property to be eligible for listing under
this criterion, several considerations must be met. Firstly, in most cases, the person associated with
this property must have made their significant accomplishments at least 50 years ago.
And secondly, the property must be associated with this period in their life or career. Anthony Carrigan
has been widely acknowledged for his contributions to Spanish literature. However, there are other properties
associated with his career more than 50 years ago. So it would be difficult to make a case for designating
the house in which he lived from 1987 to 1991. Susan and James Butler established one of the early Southern
Indiana wineries, as well as the Indiana Wine Grape Council.
They left this house in 1982 when they established their own winery, and their contribution to local
history is more closely associated with the Butler Winery property. Stone carver Ivan Adams lived at
this property for a good part of his productive career while he participated in the carving of public
and religious monuments, both locally and nationwide. He is locally recognized as one of the most prominent
stone carvers in southern Indiana limestone industry, particularly as the number of stone carvers dwindled post-war.
He moved in 1946 to 2921 South Roger Street during the later part of his career where he built a house
and workshop, neither of which is still standing. The exterior of the building at 115 East 12th Street
has been fairly unaltered from its original appearance. That is an excellent example of a small 1920s
California bungalow. I have not in the past.
Okay. Okay. Anna, we don't need to read the full ordinance now, do we? No? Okay. All right. So, property
owners are here. Would you like to make a comment? The new property owners are here. Hi, I'm John Butler.
When this whole thing started out, this house was going to be demolished and we've been fighting it
ever since August and the
people who were going to demolish it decided that they didn't want to deal with us anymore and so they
decided to sell the property to us. So now we're the owners, unlike the guy from the Gillette commercial,
I like the razors so much I bought the company. So we're very excited to own the property. We are very
excited to get it designated. We think it is a wonderful example of Bloomington history and we hope
to have it preserved forever. And I think it's a
a monument to Ivan Adams, and it would be great if we could preserve it in his memory. And to show that
greatness doesn't have to come from granite countertops, that a modest structure can produce a wonderful
resident. That's my statement. All right. Excellent. Thank you very much.
So next up, we'll have public comment. I think we'll start with the room first, and then we'll go online
just to keep it orderly. I ask that you keep your comments to three minutes. We'll time it up here,
and we'll let you know when your time's up. So does anybody in the room want to make any additional
comments? All right, go ahead. State your name for the record. My name's James Ford. I live a few doors
down from this house.
I'm very excited that there might be a historic building designated on my street and I'm excited to
learn more about Ivan Adams and I'm hoping that one day you can acquire something that he actually made
and install it in the house so that visitors can learn about him and see his works. That's it. All right.
Anybody else in the room have any other comments they'd like to add?
Stick your name. Steve Ball. 1981, I bought the house two doors west. And the houses were needing some
work. And over the decades, I've seen this. I wish I had taken pictures of what it was like compared
to back then. And the houses are all very similar along the way. And I thought it would just be kind
of an eyesore if this was gone in some kind of thing. A thing. It wouldn't be like this thing.
So I'm happy to be here to support 115. Excellent, thank you very much. Tonda, do we have anybody online
who wants to say anything? We have Judith Barnes online. I'm not sure if she wishes to speak or not.
She is unmuted. Judith, do you want to say anything? Sure, yeah. OK. I mean, I just want to say that
I'm delighted that the house is being considered for designation. And I want to thank everybody on the board
commission and everybody in the neighborhood and the butlers who have really brought this movement forward
and also to say that I had no idea that an illustrious sculptor lived in the house and it's completely
delightful and as a sculptor myself I feel a kind of a kinship
And so thank you, everyone. I just wanted to, although I don't have a vote, I just want to say that
I'm thrilled that it's being considered. And would like to correct the record that we lived in the house
until 93, not 91. Well, my husband, Anthony Carrigan, died in the house in 91. But I lived there until 93.
OK. Thank you, Judith. That's all. Thanks, everyone. Do we have anybody else online? We do not. OK.
Seeing as that, we'll turn to the commissioners for questions. Jack, do you have questions? First question
would be, what form would a motion take? What recommendation to forward to the Common Council? Make
a motion to recommend and issue the address for historic designation to the Common Council. All right.
Yeah, my comment is that I think this, if this would be passed by the Common Council, it would serve
as a sign that things can be done with these houses. Largely, nothing has happened good. And this is
something that, even this single house,
stands out in a square in protected, one small protected area in town. I think it sends a signal that
things can be done and times are changing and maybe would encourage people that are otherwise uninterested
to be interested in these houses and to want to preserve them and perhaps to even form neighborhood
group, neighborhood associations for protection.
once they really understand the danger to these neighborhoods by a single house being taken out. It
used to be, before we had neighborhood associations in this town, it was in the 90s who could get a
permit and
take a house down in two, three days. It happened fairly commonly, and that's why a number of neighborhood
associations were formed, and I believe that's why we have demolition delay today. There were a couple
of very well-known homes that were taken down that displeased a lot of people in town and caused demolition
delay to come along, and it's been important. We talk about neighborhood rules sometimes infringing
perhaps on the neighbors, but at the same time, those rules were written by people in those neighborhoods,
and they are protecting themselves. Where we don't have good protection has been these sort of outlying
homes that are not part of other preservation groups. So this could send, I think, a good signal.
All right, so question and comment from Jack. Question, Melody. Question, Renard. Karen. I have a question for Noah.
In your research on him, on Mr. Adams, did you find any reference, and there's often not much recorded
about, you know, just simple workers, right? But as to whether he went through an apprenticeship, a
formal apprenticeship training as a sculptor that exists, those kinds of things in the stone industry,
but a lot of
people just kind of worked around. He had gotten started as, unfortunately, I don't remember which mill.
I think it may have even been, let me turn back to our other demo delay. I think it was the mill down
the street that, you know, we still have this remaining structure from Johnny's Stone Company. So we
had started there just cutting blocks to size and then moved
fairly quickly onto sculpting, but who specifically he trained under, I don't know. He worked to some
extent with Harry Donato, but he was a little older than him and a little more well-known in Bloomington,
but they were more of contemporaries. Thank you. Daniel, questions? No questions. Drew, questions? No
questions.
I don't have any questions, so I will entertain a motion. I move we approve the designation of 2503.
Recommend it for historic designation of the common council. That one too. Is there a second? So Melody.
All right. Let's discuss this. Jack, anything else you want to add? I've discussed. Thought so. Melody.
No, nothing I need to add. Bernard? Well, I'm in full support for designating this house and preserving
it as a historic structure. I'd like to think of it as Ewington's own little east wing that we're. It
doesn't balance the scale, but I think we should strike one back for the good guys. Sure. Karen?
Well, I'm in favor of it because the limestone industry was so fundamental to Bloomington's history
and economic development and contributions across the country. And to my knowledge, there's not any,
maybe I'm wrong, but there's no formal recognition of any particular stone worker. Sometimes companies
get mentioned
I did my master's thesis on a local stone worker. He was not a sculptor, but, and he's talked to me
about older sculptors and, you know, people working in the industry and how it, and that knowledge just
doesn't get out to people. And I would like to see the city of Wilmington recognize a person like this
who has made a mark across the country as well as contributed to the industry here.
One, I want to say congratulations on being the new owner. That's much easier to work with. And I just
want to say I want to echo what Karen and Jack said. I agree with your comments. Those were great. Drew.
No other comments. I think for me, I think the most appropriate way to honor this gentleman would be
with a historical marker where he did his work next to one of his monuments or something else that he
built. With that said,
Um, I will be supporting this going forward. All right. That brings us to the end of the comments. So
I think we're ready for a vote. Okay. So we have a motion on the floor for HD 2503, which has been moved
and seconded to designate or to send to council for historical designation. We'll go ahead and take
a vote. Jack Baker. Yes. Jeremy Hacker. Yes. Raynard Cross. Melanie Dusner. Yes.
Daniel Schlegel. Yes. And that motion passes 5-0-0. Do I need to read the thing again? The full text
of this. I read it last time. Do I need to read it again? For the forwarding to council. Oh, yeah. You
know what? Go ahead and read it again. OK. Make it official official? Yes. All right. Today, the HBC
declares that the property located at 115 East 12th Street
meets the following criteria for local designation referred to in the staff report. 1A has historic
character, interest, or value as part of the development, heritage, or cultural characteristics of the
city, state, or nation, or is associated with a person who played a significant role in local, state,
or national history. Consequently, the HBC recommends its historic designation under Title VIII of the
Bloomington Municipal Code to the Common Council with the attached map, which is in the report.
And it's already under interim protection. So we don't need to do that part. Okay. Excellent. So we're
done with that. So congratulations. It'll go to the common council next. Next up, we have old business
violations. Yes. So as far as violations, there was a question over, well, one, the fence on 4th Street.
which has just been resolved. There's also the ongoing conversation by the windows at 702 East Kirkwood.
Anna and I have both recommended that a fine be levied. So we've written up a letter to be sent out
for that. And that was what was discussed at the last meeting that was denied. Yeah. One of the petitioners
has since emailed me back
saying that a friend of hers in town was going to drop off some subsequent application. I haven't seen
that yet. I got this email today. We have drafted a letter for levying a fine. Are there any other violations
people want to bring up? Not that I'm aware of. All right. That moves us on to new business. I forgot
to turn that off.
Anybody have any new business they'd like to discuss? All right. Hearing none, are there any final public
comments that anybody would like to share? There's a question. Can I have a question? Yeah. I'm curious
how one looks back in the records to find out how a particular demolition delay ended up going forward
or not. I've looked through agendas.
meetings, I can't find any information on a particular one. Is there a database, or is there something
I have to send to somebody about it? I do keep a log of cases that come to HPC meetings. So that includes
stamina delays, COAs, designations, and some other things. So an email to you about one particular one?
Yeah. And then another thing you can do is, once you get that specific meeting set, you can
view the recording online if it's a more recent meeting and you can see the discussion that's happened.
Sorry, just a follow-up question. Is the log that you keep just for you or did it precede you? Gloria
started it. There may have been, I think there were some attempts at doing it before her, but the furthest
back I have consistent log is 2023.
Any other public comments? All right, hearing none. Well, we have commissioner comments before public
comments. Oh, I had asked for commissioner comments, I thought. Sorry. And I think you went new business.
Oh, apologies. All right, commissioner comments. Sorry. Well, yeah. I'd just like to make something
clear about the issue with 212. I didn't have a problem with the fence.
I've had it coming with a lot more COAs than I have. But for persons who have been here longer than
a day, you'd know that I have an issue with retroactive COAs. And I have a particular issue with retroactive
COAs in cases like this one. The gentleman came to us before. And I have a recollection of saying, OK,
fine. The next time you're going to make an alteration to a building,
speak to, I'm not sure if you were here. It could have been Gloria. No, it was him. Right. I said, check
with the person at hand. Because he came with the same story. Oh, I checked with this, and I didn't
hear anything from that, and so on. And I'm saying, OK. But there is one authority that you will get
the definitive answer on historic properties. And he came, and it was the same story as the previous time.
I know if I stay here long enough, I'm going to see him come back with the same story again, and we're
going to fall for it as a commission. At what point do we say you have a responsibility as a property
owner? How do you own a property for 14 years and not know that that property is in a historic district?
I was trying not to use certain adjectives to describe my feelings about that position that he held.
But that is ridiculous. That is the height of irresponsibility. And we cannot continue to let people
come before us and get away with, oh well, you know, planning this and well zoning that. 14 years he
owned it and this is not the first time he's been here. That's it. Okay. Any other comments from the
commissioners?
Did I miss anything else? Thank you for bearing with me and sharing this today. Hopefully I did seem
proud. So with that, this meeting is adjourned.