WEBVTT 00:00:00.610 --> 00:00:08.900 - All right, I'm calling to order this meeting of the Bloomington Historic Preservation Commission for 00:00:08.900 --> 00:00:17.191 - Thursday, June 25, 2026. Would the staff please call the roll? Commissioner Cross? Yes. Commissioner 00:00:17.191 --> 00:00:25.810 - Baker? Yes. Commissioner Butler? Here. Commissioner Castaneda? Commissioner Duesner? Commissioner Duffy? 00:00:25.810 --> 00:00:30.078 - Here. Commissioner Golden? Yes. Chair Hacker? Here. 00:00:30.402 --> 00:00:38.357 - Commissioner Schlegel. We have one. Excellent. Next up on the agenda is approval of the minutes. Does 00:00:38.357 --> 00:00:46.624 - anybody have any changes to the minutes? Is there a motion on the minutes? All right, Commissioner Golden 00:00:46.624 --> 00:00:54.579 - has moved to approve. Is there a second? I'll second that. Commissioner Butler has seconded. Go ahead 00:00:54.579 --> 00:01:00.350 - and call the roll. Certainly. Co-chair Baker? Yes. Treasurer Butler? Yes. 00:01:01.442 --> 00:01:10.072 - Commissioner Duffy? Yes. Commissioner Golden? Yes. Chair Hacker? Yes. Commissioner Schlegel? Sorry, 00:01:10.072 --> 00:01:18.789 - he's not here. The minutes are approved. All right. Next up, we have a staff review of two COAs. Mr. 00:01:18.789 --> 00:01:27.678 - Stanwyce, take it away. All right. There is an error on this first COA report for COA 2636. The survey 00:01:27.678 --> 00:01:30.526 - description is not correct here. 00:01:31.682 --> 00:01:39.917 - Limestone veneered Gabledale house in the Mabel Heights Historic District. Address is 907 North Jackson. 00:01:39.917 --> 00:01:47.916 - Property owner is, sorry, petitioner is Liberty Flora. 907 North Jackson Street is a limestone faced, 00:01:47.916 --> 00:01:56.308 - pure middle-roofed cottage with a front corner porch and a later rear addition corner porch slash carport. 00:01:56.308 --> 00:02:01.406 - There's a 1950s garage at the rear of the property. This request 00:02:01.634 --> 00:02:08.212 - as I received it. The proposed project consists of the installation of a new decorative black metal 00:02:08.212 --> 00:02:14.789 - fence along the property line. The fence will be approximately four feet in height and will include 00:02:14.789 --> 00:02:21.499 - a pedestrian access gate near the front entry. The existing mailbox will be relocated as necessary to 00:02:21.499 --> 00:02:28.076 - accommodate the gate location and maintain accessibility. I propose the mailbox be moved outside of 00:02:28.076 --> 00:02:29.918 - the fence next to the gate. 00:02:32.002 --> 00:02:38.814 - Continuing the proposed fencing will consist of brown finished wood fence posts with fence panels between 00:02:38.814 --> 00:02:45.820 - them. Fence posts will be installed in concrete footings in accordance with the manufacturer specifications. 00:02:45.820 --> 00:02:52.632 - Gates will utilize matching materials finishes and decorative details to maintain a consistent appearance 00:02:52.632 --> 00:02:59.252 - throughout the project. The gate will be over the existing sidewalk. There's a private sidewalk as you 00:02:59.252 --> 00:03:01.694 - see here in the rear of the property. 00:03:02.146 --> 00:03:11.740 - and will be of similar material. Staff approve COA 2636. The proposed fence meets district guidelines 00:03:11.740 --> 00:03:21.334 - for new fences. Next, staff approve certificate of appropriateness COA 2637 for 918 West House Street 00:03:21.334 --> 00:03:28.670 - in the Greater Prospect Hill Historic District. Petitioner is Bonnie Estelle. 00:03:30.562 --> 00:03:37.714 - In 2025, the Bloomington Historic Preservation Commission approved an application for new construction 00:03:37.714 --> 00:03:44.380 - of a primary residence at 918 West Half Street. While the former residence has been demolished, 00:03:44.380 --> 00:03:51.602 - a non-contributing alley adjacent garage remains. This request is for the installation of rooftop solar 00:03:51.602 --> 00:03:58.615 - panels on that garage and staff approves COA 2637. The proposed alterations to this non-contributing 00:03:58.615 --> 00:03:59.934 - backyard structure 00:04:00.386 --> 00:04:06.287 - would not have a significant impact on the historic streetscape of Greater Prospect Hill. All right. 00:04:06.287 --> 00:04:12.246 - Next up are COAs for commission review for each item on the agenda. The historic preservation program 00:04:12.246 --> 00:04:18.673 - manager will first present a staff report. We will then hear if the petitioner has any additional information 00:04:18.673 --> 00:04:24.515 - about the request, followed by public comment. Once public comment concludes, commissioners will be 00:04:24.515 --> 00:04:28.254 - able to ask questions to staff, the petitioner, and the public. 00:04:28.354 --> 00:04:33.021 - We ask that petitioners, the public, and commissioners refrain from speaking until addressed by the 00:04:33.021 --> 00:04:37.874 - chair unless a question is directly addressed to them. Following commissioner questions, the chair will 00:04:37.874 --> 00:04:42.728 - entertain a motion from a commissioner regarding the petition. Once a motion is made, we will then open 00:04:42.728 --> 00:04:47.442 - up a discussion of the item for members of the commission only. Finally, once the commissioners have 00:04:47.442 --> 00:04:52.295 - all had a chance to speak, the commissioners will vote on the petition. We encourage all commissioners, 00:04:52.295 --> 00:04:55.422 - petitioners, and members of the public to be civil and respectful. 00:04:55.586 --> 00:05:09.461 - at all times. First up we have COA 2635 is the petitioner present. Are they online? They're not online. 00:05:09.461 --> 00:05:22.802 - Okay we will move that to the end of the agenda then. Next up we have demolition delays. Demolition 00:05:22.802 --> 00:05:24.670 - delay 2608 is 00:05:24.866 --> 00:05:35.093 - Mr. Sanlis, take that away. All right. Demolition delay 2608. This is for 422 slash 424 South College 00:05:35.093 --> 00:05:45.120 - Avenue. The petitioner is Bill Rigert. And this request is for full demolition. 422 slash 424 South 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:50.334 - College is a commercial slash residential building. 00:05:50.722 --> 00:05:57.547 - with modernist features, including metal corner windows on the second story, large first floor picture 00:05:57.547 --> 00:06:04.173 - windows, glass block windows, and limestone piers that tilt outward supporting an awning. The front 00:06:04.173 --> 00:06:11.131 - portion of the building is three stories tall with a two-story warehouse portion in the rear and a large 00:06:11.131 --> 00:06:18.088 - one-story garage attachment in the back. The front facade is clad with rough cut ashlar limestone, while 00:06:18.088 --> 00:06:20.606 - most of the building is cement block. 00:06:22.338 --> 00:06:29.169 - This commercial residential building was completed in 1955 by Ralph O. Deckard. In 1943, after graduating 00:06:29.169 --> 00:06:35.741 - from Indiana University, Deckard and his partner, Woody Stogsdale, acquired the Full of Pep Auto Part 00:06:35.741 --> 00:06:42.185 - Company located at 220 South College. Under the management of Ralph Deckard and his wife Alma, Full 00:06:42.185 --> 00:06:48.694 - of Pep's business continued to expand to include furniture, appliances, and prefabricated structures 00:06:48.694 --> 00:06:49.918 - for sale and rent. 00:06:51.202 --> 00:06:57.274 - This new building is served as a furniture store for virtually its entire history, hosting apartments 00:06:57.274 --> 00:07:03.345 - as well as additional businesses. When Folopeps sold the original location, this address absorbed the 00:07:03.345 --> 00:07:09.417 - auto supply inventory. A charter member of the Southern Indiana Soil and Water Conservation District, 00:07:09.417 --> 00:07:14.238 - Deckard was awarded the title of Sangamore of the Wabash by Governor Robert Orr. 00:07:16.130 --> 00:07:22.433 - Several apartments at 422 South College have historically served workers and young families. 00:07:22.433 --> 00:07:29.482 - In the 1950s, many worked for the nearby electronics factories and Johnson's Creamery. And a few during 00:07:29.482 --> 00:07:36.463 - this time stayed for longer than several years. Staff recommends the release of demolition delay 2608. 00:07:36.463 --> 00:07:43.309 - All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Samuels. The petitioner here, Bill Rigger, would you like to say 00:07:43.309 --> 00:07:44.190 - a few words? 00:07:46.370 --> 00:07:53.922 - answer any questions you may have this I'm here with John White Cart and Doug Bruce from the CIB and 00:07:53.922 --> 00:08:01.698 - this is part of the Convention Center expansion project so anybody has any questions I'll try to answer 00:08:01.698 --> 00:08:09.325 - those and if not John White Carter Doug might help me out okay thank you are there any members of the 00:08:09.325 --> 00:08:14.110 - public who wish to comment on this demolition delay in the room 00:08:14.818 --> 00:08:21.710 - Are there members of the public who wish to comment on this demolition delay? Yes. All right. Would 00:08:21.710 --> 00:08:28.878 - you please state your name for the record? And you have three minutes. Hello. My name is Sarah St. John 00:08:28.878 --> 00:08:36.045 - Wilford. And we are making the request. I represent Bloomington Homes for All. And I'm also the Housing 00:08:36.045 --> 00:08:42.937 - Solutions Director at Habitat for Humanity. We're making the request that you please do not release 00:08:42.937 --> 00:08:43.902 - these delays. 00:08:44.034 --> 00:08:51.093 - Instead, do what produced the Cottage Grove District in March. One, initiate Seminary Point as a conservation 00:08:51.093 --> 00:08:57.767 - district. Two, impose interim protection. And three, send it to common council. You can do this on your 00:08:57.767 --> 00:09:04.249 - own motion. Owner consent isn't required. You have done so previously with North Morton Street. Both 00:09:04.249 --> 00:09:06.174 - buildings meet your criteria. 00:09:06.402 --> 00:09:13.068 - Ralph Deckard built them in 1954 and 1955 as full of pet business with worker apartments above. The 00:09:13.068 --> 00:09:19.867 - limestone and glass block storefronts may be an intact piece of post-war commercial architecture that 00:09:19.867 --> 00:09:26.999 - could be added to Bloomington's historical designations. In the 1950s, these apartments housed the workers 00:09:26.999 --> 00:09:33.865 - who built this city and worked at the RCA electronics plant and Johnson Creamery. 70 years later, they 00:09:33.865 --> 00:09:35.198 - still hold 21 units 00:09:35.298 --> 00:09:42.032 - of incredibly affordable housing. That historical continuation is what your social and economic heritage 00:09:42.032 --> 00:09:48.509 - criterion protects. Your demolition criteria asks you to weigh alternatives. Under Bloomington Homes 00:09:48.509 --> 00:09:55.114 - for All Plan, Avalon Community Land Trust holds the land. Seminary Point Cooperative owns and operates 00:09:55.114 --> 00:10:01.720 - the building. We have a feasible $1.6 million rehabilitation plan, setting rents at $700 per month and 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:04.926 - serving households around 45% area median income. 00:10:05.026 --> 00:10:11.535 - This plan to conserve the character of downtown Bloomington and this incredibly affordable housing for 00:10:11.535 --> 00:10:17.918 - our residents, workers, and artists was unanimously endorsed by the City Council on June 3rd. We ask 00:10:17.918 --> 00:10:24.490 - that you consider our conservation district proposal and allow for the full demolition delay extension. 00:10:24.490 --> 00:10:31.062 - Thank you. Thank you very much. Very good on time. Anybody else from the public wish to comment on this 00:10:31.062 --> 00:10:32.958 - demolition delay in the room? 00:10:34.914 --> 00:10:43.141 - So you know, is there anyone online who would like to comment? There is not. There's not, okay. I think 00:10:43.141 --> 00:10:51.289 - we will turn to Commissioner questions. We'll start with Commissioner Baker. Do you have any questions 00:10:51.289 --> 00:10:59.278 - about this demolition delay? No questions at the moment. Commissioner Cross. Would it be fair to say 00:10:59.278 --> 00:11:00.702 - that at least one 00:11:00.994 --> 00:11:10.710 - aspect of your petition sent us around this gentleman, Deckard, and his association with these buildings. 00:11:10.710 --> 00:11:19.967 - Yes, he also won what I recall to be an award that is a distinction from the state or for, I believe 00:11:19.967 --> 00:11:28.766 - it's called the Wabash. Sagamore the Wabash. Sagamore the Wabash, thank you. Yes. Tell me more. 00:11:28.866 --> 00:11:37.104 - I don't know what this award is, why he was awarded, you know, what we do, what's his claim to fame, 00:11:37.104 --> 00:11:45.260 - so that his association with these buildings would meet the criteria. I mean, I could fill you in a 00:11:45.260 --> 00:11:54.558 - little bit on that. So I believe he was awarded, I was saying more to the Wabash for his work in establishing the 00:11:57.410 --> 00:12:06.554 - It's the Southern Indiana Soil and Water Conservation District. So in addition to his regular businesses, 00:12:06.554 --> 00:12:15.612 - he was also a gentleman farmer with sort of an interest in conservation. OK. And about the award, that's 00:12:15.612 --> 00:12:24.670 - the highest award that the governor can bestow upon an individual in the state. OK. Any other questions? 00:12:27.426 --> 00:12:38.365 - Yeah, so I just want to make it clear. What criteria are you hoping to satisfy with regards to awarding 00:12:38.365 --> 00:12:48.883 - historic protection? Perhaps, Amber, can you answer the question of what exact statute we're trying 00:12:48.883 --> 00:12:53.406 - to apply? I have the proposals right here. 00:12:53.538 --> 00:13:02.489 - If I can pull them out really quickly, sorry. Do you guys need extra chairs here? Do you mind if I pass 00:13:02.489 --> 00:13:11.096 - out proposals? Is there a particular part, like section, for historic or architectural significance 00:13:11.096 --> 00:13:19.358 - that you are advocating for? That's part of what we can consider. I mean, I have several codes. 00:13:19.810 --> 00:13:30.703 - I'm advocating for, so. He has the question. Yeah, my question is, there are certain criteria that have 00:13:30.703 --> 00:13:42.120 - to be met to support your petition for not releasing the demolition delay in order to apply for protections. 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:49.662 - And I'm just trying to figure out which specific criteria. So 808010E1. 00:13:50.146 --> 00:14:02.173 - is the first and major one. It's the economic and social heritage code. Okay. It's exemplifies the cultural, 00:14:02.173 --> 00:14:13.208 - political, economic, social, or historic heritage of the community. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. And 00:14:13.208 --> 00:14:19.166 - if you'd like, I can make my full comment to whenever 00:14:20.034 --> 00:14:31.022 - Yeah, sure. I mean, in answer to my question, if you could just explain to us how it is that you believe 00:14:31.022 --> 00:14:41.695 - these buildings satisfy the requirements under these sections that you are. Yeah. So we're wanting to 00:14:41.695 --> 00:14:46.718 - do the conservation district to save the block. 00:14:47.010 --> 00:15:01.446 - designating it under IC 36711. And it's for both the buildings, the 2022 West Second and 424. They were 00:15:01.446 --> 00:15:14.910 - both built in 1954-55. The person in particular is Ralph O. Decker. The business is Full O. PEP. 00:15:15.266 --> 00:15:26.370 - He is a IU graduate and started the first business that was bringing electric generators to the rural 00:15:26.370 --> 00:15:37.366 - community. He has many awards. He got the Sagamore Wabash Award, which is the highest honor that the 00:15:37.366 --> 00:15:40.414 - governor awards in Indiana. 00:15:40.674 --> 00:15:50.296 - There is a couple of architectural significance as well under 808-010-E2. The buildings exemplify a 00:15:50.296 --> 00:15:59.919 - distinctive era of post-war commercial design, rough cut ashler limestone storefronts, metal corner 00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:06.558 - and glass block windows, outward candid limestone piers. But mostly, 00:16:06.722 --> 00:16:16.751 - I'm wanting to argue under the cultural social significance, specifically that the buildings were originally 00:16:16.751 --> 00:16:26.413 - built for worker housing and that today we are still trying to save it for affordable housing. And let's 00:16:26.413 --> 00:16:36.350 - see what else particularly that you may want to hear in this moment. Can I help speak to this a little bit? 00:16:37.122 --> 00:16:44.478 - So my name is William Morris and I'm an attorney in town and I've helped Amber with this and 00:16:45.890 --> 00:16:52.485 - The economic socio part of this building and these buildings is very interesting. I don't have all of 00:16:52.485 --> 00:16:59.209 - the history behind me, but I do know that there's worker housing there, there's inventor housing there, 00:16:59.209 --> 00:17:05.933 - there's musical studio that was there at one time in the 1950s, and there are two or three other things 00:17:05.933 --> 00:17:12.592 - that give these buildings really historical importance in Bloomington. And you know, I lived in Chapel 00:17:12.592 --> 00:17:13.950 - Hill, North Carolina 00:17:14.082 --> 00:17:21.216 - And there's a community right next to Chapel Hill that's called Carrboro. And Carrboro is a lot of older 00:17:21.216 --> 00:17:28.147 - houses like Westside here. But it's also this idea that there was a large part of how Chapel Hill was 00:17:28.147 --> 00:17:35.009 - set up with workers and the organic history of the town that is a big part of that. Now, this is not 00:17:35.009 --> 00:17:41.804 - as big as Carrboro, clearly. But it does have the same kind of history. It is a part of the history 00:17:41.804 --> 00:17:43.774 - of bringing Bloomington into 00:17:44.322 --> 00:17:49.749 - manufacturing age when when the buildings like it showers were important and rca were important and 00:17:49.749 --> 00:17:55.394 - the other buildings that used to be here the people that worked there lived there and it does have that 00:17:55.394 --> 00:18:01.310 - importance and i don't know about any of you all i don't know any of you all really personally i don't think 00:18:01.634 --> 00:18:07.214 - But you know, when you're going back to look into the history of things, I happen to be very fascinated 00:18:07.214 --> 00:18:12.955 - by the history of things, because I like to know how were we layered. Every place you go, I tell students, 00:18:12.955 --> 00:18:18.320 - because I used to give students tours, international students of these areas, is there's a layering 00:18:18.320 --> 00:18:23.739 - of one thing on another that creates a neighborhood. And this neighborhood has been layered a couple 00:18:23.739 --> 00:18:29.534 - times. And the history is really fantastic. And it is legitimate. And I really wouldn't stand here for one. 00:18:30.306 --> 00:18:36.411 - But there's a legitimate history there. And if you gave us, gave me, gave Amber a couple days, we could 00:18:36.411 --> 00:18:42.282 - really, she has it in her papers. And I don't know it exactly, but I know it's there. This brother, 00:18:42.282 --> 00:18:48.269 - Decker, he was given this high award, which relates to the Wabash River. Back in the time when people 00:18:48.269 --> 00:18:49.150 - in Bloomington 00:18:49.602 --> 00:18:55.195 - related to the Wabash River. We don't talk about the Wabash anymore. If you live in Terre Haute, they 00:18:55.195 --> 00:19:00.733 - talk about it. But we don't really talk about it anymore. But that guy won this award, which is very 00:19:00.733 --> 00:19:06.435 - high and prestigious, the Sagamond of the Wabash. There was a prominent recording studio that was there 00:19:06.435 --> 00:19:11.973 - at that time as a part of the Bloomington musical history, which I think is quite substantial. And I 00:19:11.973 --> 00:19:17.566 - think it's something that all of us here celebrate. It was also worker housing on the second stories. 00:19:18.018 --> 00:19:25.157 - Um, that was very significant, like I say, related to the showers building, et cetera. And there are 00:19:25.157 --> 00:19:32.366 - some other things that my mind's not getting to right now, but I do think that there are substantial, 00:19:32.366 --> 00:19:39.010 - um, economic socio history there that is really worth preserving. All right. Thank you. Yeah. 00:19:39.010 --> 00:19:46.290 - Thank you. Any follow up questions? Yeah. Um, I find this part intriguing. The commission's demolition 00:19:46.290 --> 00:19:47.774 - criteria, BMC eight, 00:19:48.194 --> 00:20:01.971 - And I'm going to ask Noah just to explain that to me. Require a weighing of alternatives to demolition 00:20:01.971 --> 00:20:15.615 - in the public interest, against public interest in preserving these buildings. It's on... Right. Last 00:20:15.615 --> 00:20:17.086 - paragraph. 00:20:19.746 --> 00:20:45.328 - Oh, this is referring to demolition in public safety. Okay, let's see. Oh yes, this is where for where 00:20:45.328 --> 00:20:49.054 - this generally 00:20:49.794 --> 00:21:00.379 - This actually generally refers to, um, buildings that are located, um, in a historic district. Um, demolition 00:21:00.379 --> 00:21:10.097 - delay for the most part is hiddled handled under, uh, which title is, uh, I'm sorry, I'm blanking on 00:21:10.097 --> 00:21:15.678 - it. Um, the unified development ordinance. Um, so I mean, 00:21:17.058 --> 00:21:29.678 - When demolition delay comes up, the things that the commission is allowed to consider are about the 00:21:29.678 --> 00:21:42.425 - significance of the existing buildings, but not the future use of the site. OK, any other? Well, I'm 00:21:42.425 --> 00:21:44.318 - a bit puzzled. 00:21:45.570 --> 00:21:54.490 - Puzzle is probably the wrong word, but could you explain why it is, on what basis did you include this 00:21:54.490 --> 00:22:03.151 - in your submission? Because of the current political situation around the property, and that we are 00:22:03.151 --> 00:22:12.331 - trying to save it from demolition. And that we have an alternative plan, Homes for All has an alternative 00:22:12.331 --> 00:22:15.102 - plan for the property, and that 00:22:15.362 --> 00:22:25.985 - would entrust it to the Avalon Community Land Trust and the Seminary Point Cooperative would own and 00:22:25.985 --> 00:22:36.818 - operate the buildings. We have a $1.6 million rehabilitation plan that has been looked over and signed 00:22:36.818 --> 00:22:44.286 - off from four major CFI lenders. And we set the rents at $700 a month. 00:22:44.674 --> 00:22:51.489 - which is reaching households at 45% AMI. May I add to that, please? Do you want him to? Sure. I think 00:22:51.489 --> 00:22:58.439 - after this one, we'll need to move on to other components. Also, the idea is that demolition, once it's 00:22:58.439 --> 00:23:00.510 - demolished, it's irreversible. 00:23:01.186 --> 00:23:06.257 - So we're not asking you to make a permanent decision. We're just asking you to put a delay on it while 00:23:06.257 --> 00:23:11.280 - other things get sorted out. And there is a very high possibility, I say likelihood, that things will 00:23:11.280 --> 00:23:16.203 - be sorted out. We're in the process of trying to do that. But if it's demolished, you can't reverse 00:23:16.203 --> 00:23:21.423 - it. It's like chopping down trees and you're trying to save the trees. So while you're making a decision, 00:23:21.423 --> 00:23:25.214 - you leave the trees there because it's not harming anybody to have it there. 00:23:26.050 --> 00:23:33.534 - We made a point about the economic socio-history of it, and we can add more to that. So those two pieces 00:23:33.534 --> 00:23:41.017 - are in place. And I work with Ethan all the time. I thought that was Ethan. I was like, oh, jeez, that's 00:23:41.017 --> 00:23:48.216 - not Ethan. That's not Ethan. Yeah. Thank you. Commissioner Duffy, do you have any questions? I don't 00:23:48.216 --> 00:23:53.918 - have any questions. Commissioner Butler, do you have any questions? Yeah, I do. 00:23:55.170 --> 00:24:02.597 - And I kind of need to frame my question so that it makes sense. Normally, we deal with the vast majority 00:24:02.597 --> 00:24:09.740 - of cases are houses that are being demolished. And houses, we have a huge inventory of houses and of 00:24:09.740 --> 00:24:17.026 - house types. So there's lots of California bungalows. There's lots of gabled elves. This is different. 00:24:17.026 --> 00:24:20.350 - This is commercial building in a public space. 00:24:20.674 --> 00:24:29.857 - And so I don't know what our inventory is of this type of building. And Noah, if you could find that 00:24:29.857 --> 00:24:39.677 - out, I would like to know of, you know, built in roughly the same time period, 1950s, commercial, two-story 00:24:39.677 --> 00:24:47.678 - buildings, because it strikes me that this might be a rather rare type for Bloomington. 00:24:48.130 --> 00:24:57.555 - And it also strikes me that this may be one of the best examples of this rare type, because it has the 00:24:57.555 --> 00:25:06.888 - corner windows, it has those wonderful front projections on the diagonal. This building really speaks 00:25:06.888 --> 00:25:16.038 - to me for this moment in time, sort of this mid-century history. And so I would be hesitant to vote 00:25:16.038 --> 00:25:17.502 - to demolish it. 00:25:17.762 --> 00:25:25.132 - Yeah, you're right. So anyway, I want to know about the inventory. That's my question. Sorry. That's 00:25:25.132 --> 00:25:33.159 - something that I could run a search for. Off the top of my head, there's not a whole lot of these mid-century 00:25:33.159 --> 00:25:40.455 - commercial buildings in Bloomington. I know that there's a few on this block and then mostly up and 00:25:40.455 --> 00:25:46.366 - down Walnut, which was sort of the big commercial corridor. Any other questions? 00:25:47.938 --> 00:25:55.713 - So he needs to look it up. Commissioner Golden, do you have any questions? I have just a couple. 00:25:55.713 --> 00:26:04.049 - One for Noah. So the process of making this a conservation district, can that be initiated by this body 00:26:04.049 --> 00:26:10.942 - or does it have to be initiated from the outside? I'm going to pull up Title 8 again. 00:26:15.458 --> 00:26:24.517 - Because essentially, they're asking us to. Right, because it's a conservation district. Yeah, that could 00:26:24.517 --> 00:26:33.317 - be recommended by the commission. And then I'd like the gentleman back here to respond to what's been 00:26:33.317 --> 00:26:42.030 - said so far. That's my question. Do you have a response? Yeah, Doug Bruce, I could certainly respond 00:26:42.030 --> 00:26:44.446 - to a couple of things here. 00:26:44.770 --> 00:26:51.846 - I was trying to take some notes. First, I'd say the Sagamore, the Womash is not all that rare. It's 00:26:51.846 --> 00:26:58.993 - also a political award that depending on who your governor is, and I think if you look up the number 00:26:58.993 --> 00:27:06.069 - of people that have it, there's quite a few people. So I'm not talking to you, I'm talking to Jeff. 00:27:06.069 --> 00:27:11.518 - So it isn't as rare. If you want to frame it around that, and I'll also say, 00:27:11.970 --> 00:27:18.484 - I worked here at one time when it was Fulipep. Arco Motors was where Jim Register's office is now. And 00:27:18.484 --> 00:27:24.809 - Fulipep was the other big auto parts store. So I know the building pretty well. A couple of things. 00:27:24.809 --> 00:27:31.386 - I'd say that some of the buildings right now, there are spaces that are uninhabitable because I believe 00:27:31.386 --> 00:27:37.774 - it's demolition by neglect. I think there are parts of these buildings that have needed repairs that 00:27:37.774 --> 00:27:41.758 - it hasn't happened. So there's a lot of work to be done there. 00:27:42.114 --> 00:27:48.639 - I'll also add that in my 20 years of serving on this board up until eight years ago or so, if a building 00:27:48.639 --> 00:27:55.040 - wasn't in a district and it was only contributing, it meant that it didn't have enough historic fabric 00:27:55.040 --> 00:28:01.504 - to be designated. So that's what you would be asked to do and designate the building. Does it have that 00:28:01.504 --> 00:28:05.854 - historic fabric? And then the third thing I would say is that I think 00:28:06.146 --> 00:28:12.280 - you would be surprised. I like the question on the commercial. And I started thinking right off the 00:28:12.280 --> 00:28:18.537 - bat of some of the buildings. I think where Atlas Bar is, is this type of structure. I renovated that 00:28:18.537 --> 00:28:24.733 - building. Stalls, furniture around the corner. So I think you'd find there's a lot more of this type 00:28:24.733 --> 00:28:31.357 - of structure. So it's about one story, though. Sure, sure. But the same era and the same kind of commercial 00:28:31.357 --> 00:28:35.038 - use. Actually, Stalls has a second story. It's in the back. 00:28:35.426 --> 00:28:42.374 - because I've recently been in the building. So again, that's answering some of the questions that have 00:28:42.374 --> 00:28:49.188 - been brought up. I'm trying to think if there's anything else to address it. I don't really have any 00:28:49.188 --> 00:28:56.001 - more other than that right now, but. All right, let's go back to Commissioner questions. Do you have 00:28:56.001 --> 00:29:03.422 - any other questions, Commissioner Golden? Can I ask him to respond to Mr White Carton? Yeah, thank thank you. 00:29:04.002 --> 00:29:11.068 - First let me say, and I've said this publicly and I've said it to advocates, I respect the advocates 00:29:11.068 --> 00:29:18.135 - and I respect their position. What I believe you've heard tonight, and I believe some of these words 00:29:18.135 --> 00:29:25.551 - were even mentioned, is that they are working towards a political solution to solve an affordable housing 00:29:25.551 --> 00:29:27.230 - issue in our community. 00:29:27.746 --> 00:29:34.633 - They are not addressing the historical significance. I mean, I've heard evidence presented about why 00:29:34.633 --> 00:29:41.656 - they want you to consider it historic, but I've heard talk about how there is a solution afoot to save 00:29:41.656 --> 00:29:48.475 - all this in some momentum that's building in our political environment. As president of the Capital 00:29:48.475 --> 00:29:55.294 - Improvement Board, I find no evidence of that. I am standing here tonight having made five requests 00:29:55.746 --> 00:30:03.153 - the Mayor and the Redevelopment Commission to exchange land for affordable housing development. And 00:30:03.153 --> 00:30:10.857 - I've been denied on all five occasions. So the idea that, I began to use the metaphor with Bryce Green, 00:30:10.857 --> 00:30:16.190 - that I'm beginning to feel like Lucy in the football and Charlie Brown. 00:30:16.546 --> 00:30:22.426 - I'm asked to come back again and again and ask about land exchanges for these properties. I've made 00:30:22.426 --> 00:30:28.366 - five attempts to kick this football and all five times it's been pulled out from under me. I respect 00:30:28.366 --> 00:30:34.246 - the advocacy to try to save these properties for affordable housing. The Capital Improvement Board, 00:30:34.246 --> 00:30:40.420 - as the owner of these properties, is not going to use them for affordable housing. We are not a property 00:30:40.420 --> 00:30:42.302 - manager. We've made that clear. 00:30:42.434 --> 00:30:48.045 - It seems to me, and I don't want to tell you your business, that the question at hand is, are these 00:30:48.045 --> 00:30:53.993 - buildings historically significant? And not whether you should be asked to help solve a political problem 00:30:53.993 --> 00:30:59.773 - about affordable housing in our community. I don't believe it's your role. It's certainly not my role. 00:30:59.773 --> 00:31:05.384 - It's the role of the mayor and the city council and the county council and the county commissioners 00:31:05.384 --> 00:31:11.108 - and the redevelopment commission. And I don't believe this is the appropriate form for that political 00:31:11.108 --> 00:31:12.286 - argument to be made. 00:31:12.450 --> 00:31:19.263 - I'm here to simply with Mr. Rickards as the petitioner to say, are these structures historic by your 00:31:19.263 --> 00:31:26.211 - definitions of historic structures? Not, will you help be part of the political solution to affordable 00:31:26.211 --> 00:31:33.564 - housing in our community? So thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you very much. Commissioner Schlegel, 00:31:33.564 --> 00:31:40.782 - do you have any questions? Yeah, I think I have two right now. I think you just, I just wanted to confirm. 00:31:40.782 --> 00:31:42.334 - You said currently CIB 00:31:42.690 --> 00:31:48.485 - owns the property? Yes, these properties, the Capital Improvement Board is the owner of this land and 00:31:48.485 --> 00:31:54.280 - these parcels and these properties. So it owns the building and the land? Yes. Okay, I just wanted to 00:31:54.280 --> 00:32:00.303 - check. I just wanted to make sure I understood because I was... Yes, they were transferred to the Capital 00:32:00.303 --> 00:32:06.041 - Improvement Board, but these properties were owned by the county. They were purchased in 2010 by the 00:32:06.041 --> 00:32:08.030 - Convention of Visitors Commission. 00:32:08.578 --> 00:32:14.163 - with innkeepers' tax money solely for the purpose of being used for the convention center expansion. 00:32:14.163 --> 00:32:19.693 - So we are the owners of the property. Okay, I just wanted to check. I'm sorry, I did not catch your 00:32:19.693 --> 00:32:25.223 - name. Amber. Amber. I was trying to read, but I was trying to also pay attention to what everyone's 00:32:25.223 --> 00:32:30.863 - saying. I just had a question. You had mentioned about the common council letter, and I saw something 00:32:30.863 --> 00:32:37.278 - in here about the vote. Could you just explain? Because I'm not going to try to read that while everyone's talking. 00:32:37.826 --> 00:32:46.317 - It's a little bit complicated. Yeah, so the council wrote a letter a couple years back stating that 00:32:46.317 --> 00:32:55.147 - they wanted a full return on investment for what they paid on the North College property, which at this 00:32:55.147 --> 00:33:03.808 - time is considered by most of the community where the host hotel should go instead of Seminary Point. 00:33:03.808 --> 00:33:06.270 - So that's across from Atlas. 00:33:06.786 --> 00:33:16.865 - empty building, empty lot, you're not gonna displace anyone, either residents nor commercial tenants, 00:33:16.865 --> 00:33:26.845 - right? So, homes for all, requested from common council, can we please review our proposal and write 00:33:26.845 --> 00:33:34.750 - a letter saying that if the land was going to a mission-based entity looking to 00:33:34.978 --> 00:33:44.510 - save the land and the buildings for affordable housing, would you essentially retroactively say we now 00:33:44.510 --> 00:33:53.950 - support that land going for less than the $7.5 million? And they did so, and it was unanimously voted 00:33:53.950 --> 00:34:03.390 - for approval, and it was sent to the RDC on June 3rd. Thank you. I just wanted clarification on that. 00:34:04.354 --> 00:34:11.892 - That's all I had. I don't have any questions before we go into Commissioner. Oh, sorry, Commissioner 00:34:11.892 --> 00:34:19.728 - Duffy. I did come up with the question. Actually, I thought of this just before Mr. Bruce also mentioned 00:34:19.728 --> 00:34:27.191 - the issue. I would like to confirm with Noah that these buildings, how are they rated? They're both 00:34:27.191 --> 00:34:33.982 - rated as contributing. Thank you. I don't have any questions. I do want to remind everyone 00:34:34.306 --> 00:34:41.437 - For the consideration of the demolition delay, we are considering the historical and architectural 00:34:41.437 --> 00:34:48.640 - significance of these buildings only. Just want to remind everybody of our purview here. We need to 00:34:48.640 --> 00:34:55.987 - stay in our lane. All right, so I guess at this moment, I will entertain a motion on demolition delay 00:34:55.987 --> 00:35:01.822 - 2608. All right, Commissioner Golden has moved to release demolition delay 2608. 00:35:01.922 --> 00:35:09.618 - Commissioner Baker has seconded. We'll go into discussion since you made the motion. Commissioner Golden, 00:35:09.618 --> 00:35:17.023 - you can speak first. I appreciate the discussion that's happening here today, but as you just stated, 00:35:17.023 --> 00:35:24.864 - it's kind of out of our purview. And I just don't think that they're worth saving as far as architecturally 00:35:24.864 --> 00:35:29.438 - and historically. OK. Thank you very much. Commissioner Baker. 00:35:30.690 --> 00:35:38.153 - Yes, I also appreciate what you're saying and what you're going through. I've been on that side of the 00:35:38.153 --> 00:35:45.688 - fence before, too, in terms of neighborhood fighting for conservation districts and historic districts. 00:35:45.688 --> 00:35:53.079 - I know some of what you're up against. You make some good arguments. But again, I think we have to be 00:35:53.079 --> 00:35:58.078 - very strict in what we do. We're a historic preservation commission. 00:35:58.434 --> 00:36:09.185 - We can only evaluate these on their significance and historic value and apply certain criteria to them. 00:36:09.185 --> 00:36:19.937 - And in my reading, all I know about them at the moment is that they just don't meet the threshold. That 00:36:19.937 --> 00:36:27.070 - would give them enough significance to go through and be designated. 00:36:27.266 --> 00:36:36.359 - I just don't think that they have that historic value that would carry them through. So I will be voting 00:36:36.359 --> 00:36:45.105 - to release. OK. Thank you very much. Commissioner Schlegel, comments? Can we come back around? Sure. 00:36:45.105 --> 00:36:54.025 - Commissioner Butler. I absolutely disagree with both of those characterizations. I think this building 00:36:54.025 --> 00:36:56.190 - is architecturally worth 00:36:56.386 --> 00:37:08.306 - looking into at least and I think we would be wise to delay this at least until the next meeting when 00:37:08.306 --> 00:37:15.902 - we can get the survey that I asked for. It is exactly our job to 00:37:16.994 --> 00:37:24.549 - think very carefully about these structures in a historic way. And I think if we do that, then we have 00:37:24.549 --> 00:37:32.030 - to wonder if they might meet the cultural criteria and if they might meet the architectural criteria. 00:37:32.030 --> 00:37:40.025 - And I, for one, think they absolutely do meet the architectural, especially this building, the architectural 00:37:40.025 --> 00:37:45.086 - criteria. And also, I think the building's design is such that it is 00:37:45.250 --> 00:37:52.558 - unique for the time period. I think it really nails the time period. Before this, it's brick front commercial 00:37:52.558 --> 00:37:59.269 - buildings. After this, it's strip malls. This is a moment in time, and this building exemplifies it. 00:37:59.269 --> 00:38:06.112 - And so I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for a delay to look into this more fully, because 00:38:06.112 --> 00:38:12.158 - as some of these people have pointed out, when a building is torn down, it's lost forever. 00:38:12.514 --> 00:38:30.834 - So two weeks, I would hope, is not asking too much. Thank you very much. Commissioner Cross. I am intrigued 00:38:30.834 --> 00:38:41.182 - by this one. There are two issues which are giving me pause. 00:38:41.730 --> 00:38:58.779 - is the opinion of our commissioner, who is an expert and who has had experience in matters like these, 00:38:58.779 --> 00:39:10.366 - and also the presentation given by persons who are hoping to delay or 00:39:10.594 --> 00:39:25.834 - certainly stop the demolition of these buildings. And again, thirdly, by the gentleman who made the 00:39:25.834 --> 00:39:39.550 - point that you can't undemolish a building. And I would be willing to give this some time 00:39:40.514 --> 00:39:49.995 - and deliberate further on the matter. How are we for time, Noah? On this one? The demolition. 00:39:49.995 --> 00:40:00.383 - Let's see. Start date. Got a while, I think. I believe so. Oh, shit. I don't want to hold everyone up. 00:40:00.383 --> 00:40:06.334 - Okay, yeah, the demolition delay date started 15 days ago. 00:40:10.498 --> 00:40:21.419 - So it's 90 days or 75. I'm not sure they have two and a half months. I would advise, as is my role, 00:40:21.419 --> 00:40:32.777 - that we take some time and look into this matter. I will say that in full appreciation of what our role 00:40:32.777 --> 00:40:40.094 - here is to make a decision on the historic nature of the building, 00:40:40.706 --> 00:40:51.514 - based on criteria, the fact that there are so many other issues surrounding this matter where in another 00:40:51.514 --> 00:41:02.013 - month this whole process could be moot because I'm hearing that organization and the city and RDC and 00:41:02.013 --> 00:41:09.630 - all these people have going back and forth trying to find other solutions 00:41:10.754 --> 00:41:20.599 - that may render this whole issue, as I said before, I think we should take some time, look into this, 00:41:20.599 --> 00:41:30.927 - and make sure that when we make a decision, there is research that can back it up. Because the credibility 00:41:30.927 --> 00:41:39.614 - of this commission would also be brought into question if we seem to be making a decision 00:41:41.186 --> 00:41:50.235 - ill-informed. And with two and a half months left, I don't see any reason to not allow for 00:41:50.235 --> 00:42:00.377 - that investigation, interrogation of the issues to take place. And all stakeholders be given for time 00:42:00.377 --> 00:42:07.934 - and opportunity to present their case fully. Thank you. Commissioner Duffy. 00:42:13.986 --> 00:42:27.724 - Like everyone, I appreciate the intentions of the position of the people who are wanting to deny this 00:42:27.724 --> 00:42:36.478 - request rather than release the properties. And week after week, 00:42:36.834 --> 00:42:47.085 - so to speak, meeting after meeting, we sit here and have our hearts broken because we're constrained 00:42:47.085 --> 00:42:57.437 - under the demolition law to not consider other uses for perfectly good houses, for example, that have 00:42:57.437 --> 00:43:04.542 - to get torn down. But we are bound by law not to consider other uses. 00:43:05.154 --> 00:43:16.172 - there has to be historical value and there has to be architectural value. I'm not convinced by the historical 00:43:16.172 --> 00:43:26.689 - connection with Mr. Deckard personally. I'm not and I'm not sure that there'd be any more that the staff 00:43:26.689 --> 00:43:29.694 - hasn't already found on that. 00:43:32.482 --> 00:43:48.289 - And as far as architectural significance, there are other examples in town. And I don't see 00:43:48.289 --> 00:44:02.206 - it as outstanding. So I feel compelled to vote to release this demolition delay. 00:44:03.170 --> 00:44:11.783 - I think this is one of the tough ones, but I think after what Commissioner or Treasurer Butler had mentioned, 00:44:11.783 --> 00:44:19.770 - let me make sure I address it properly since he has the title, but just that request to find out more 00:44:19.770 --> 00:44:27.991 - about the quantity of structures and what Advisor Cross said. I would be in favor of at least postponing 00:44:27.991 --> 00:44:31.358 - two weeks just to gather more information. 00:44:31.618 --> 00:44:39.884 - from that and have that, I feel like I can go either way, but I think just a postponement of two weeks 00:44:39.884 --> 00:44:47.990 - or so I think would be fair, and I'd be in favor of that, but I know that would be, yeah, there'd be 00:44:47.990 --> 00:44:56.175 - a couple more steps on that to get there. As I mentioned earlier, what we are here to consider is the 00:44:56.175 --> 00:45:00.830 - architectural and historical significance of the building 00:45:00.930 --> 00:45:09.052 - It is rated as contributing. So the architecture has not been found to be anything of particular note. 00:45:09.052 --> 00:45:16.938 - Other people have noted there are similar buildings or buildings of that area still around. We have 00:45:16.938 --> 00:45:24.982 - the staff report that has recommended release of the demolition delay. The information that they have 00:45:24.982 --> 00:45:27.742 - there I don't think is necessarily 00:45:27.906 --> 00:45:36.136 - rising to the level of significance to where I think we need to hold up demolition. So I would be voting 00:45:36.136 --> 00:45:44.052 - in favor of release. Any secondary comments? Hearing none, I think we're ready to vote. Hey, there's 00:45:44.052 --> 00:45:52.361 - a motion on the floor that's been seconded regarding DD 2608 on a motion to release the demolition delay. 00:45:52.361 --> 00:45:57.534 - We'll take a roll call vote. Voting members only. Co-chair Baker. 00:45:57.730 --> 00:46:07.942 - Yes. Treasurer Butler? No. Commissioner Duffy? Yes. Commissioner Golden? Yes. Chair Baker? I'm sorry, 00:46:07.942 --> 00:46:17.955 - Chair Hackard, my apologies. Yes. Commissioner Schlegel? No. That is a 4-2 vote in favor to release 00:46:17.955 --> 00:46:24.062 - the delay. All right. Thank you everybody for your comments. 00:46:25.154 --> 00:46:38.042 - Next up, we have Demolition Delay 2609. Mr. Sandweiss, please take it away with your report. Same petitioner. 00:46:38.042 --> 00:46:49.406 - Oh, I forgot. I'm sorry. Yes, please read the statement for release. Today regarding a property. 00:46:49.762 --> 00:46:57.897 - At 422 slash 424 South College Avenue, Historic Preservation Commission, HPC declares that it got notice 00:46:57.897 --> 00:47:05.644 - of proposed demolition slash partial demolition and requests that staff prepare a formal report. Am 00:47:05.644 --> 00:47:11.454 - I in the wrong paragraph? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. All right. Take that back. 00:47:13.922 --> 00:47:21.344 - Today, regarding the property located at 422 slash 424, the Historic Preservation Commission, HPC declares 00:47:21.344 --> 00:47:28.488 - that it got notice of proposed demolition slash partial demolition. And after today's discussion, sees 00:47:28.488 --> 00:47:35.425 - no need to review the plans any further and waives the rest of the demolition delay waiting period. 00:47:35.425 --> 00:47:41.598 - The HPC may later recommend the property for historic designation to the Common Council. 00:47:42.210 --> 00:47:50.214 - All right, Mr. Sandweiss, your staff report. DD-2609. 222 West 2nd Street is a two-story cement masonry 00:47:50.214 --> 00:47:58.141 - commercial building with rough cut ashlar limestone storefront, five days wide, facing 2nd Street. The 00:47:58.141 --> 00:48:05.837 - ground floor is dominated by large picture windows. The second story windows are a mixture of older 00:48:05.837 --> 00:48:11.070 - divided light metal casement windows and replacement vinyl windows. 00:48:12.610 --> 00:48:21.664 - Several garage bays and secondary entrances front the sides of the building facing the beeline trail 00:48:21.664 --> 00:48:30.629 - and valley to the east. This commercial residential building, they gave you the background on Ralph 00:48:30.629 --> 00:48:39.235 - Deckard. So I'm going to skip ahead to some of the things that are particular to this building. 00:48:39.235 --> 00:48:42.462 - Let's see. For this one, I did find 00:48:43.330 --> 00:48:51.924 - Several more mentions of residents who lived here. I guess they were made during the time they reside 00:48:51.924 --> 00:49:00.686 - in this building. A couple instances including a Westinghouse engineer, Olson Robert Harm, who received 00:49:00.686 --> 00:49:09.449 - a company award at this time for one of his patents, as well as Donny Abram, an aspiring country singer 00:49:09.449 --> 00:49:11.134 - who released one LP 00:49:12.098 --> 00:49:19.775 - With the help of local country star Bobby Helm, who wrote Jingle Bell Rock, I believe. Recommendation 00:49:19.775 --> 00:49:27.452 - here is for the release of Demolition Delay 2609. All right. Does the petitioner have anything they'd 00:49:27.452 --> 00:49:34.979 - like to add? No, we don't. Unless, John, I don't think there's time. Anything to add back there for 00:49:34.979 --> 00:49:38.366 - the petitioner? No, not over the staff room. 00:49:38.914 --> 00:49:49.562 - Okay, thank you very much. Now it's time for public comment. I'll go to folks in the room. Does anybody 00:49:49.562 --> 00:50:00.005 - wish to make any comments? Yeah, I just like to add a couple more things. So we aren't proposing this 00:50:00.005 --> 00:50:07.582 - just to save the buildings for a political reason. We are wanting to save 00:50:07.810 --> 00:50:19.002 - the buildings because we do see them as historically significant. They were built 70 years ago, and 00:50:19.002 --> 00:50:30.643 - to most of the advocates, that is historical for us. And a lot of the art and cultural things that have 00:50:30.643 --> 00:50:37.470 - gone on there over the last many years mean something to us. 00:50:37.890 --> 00:50:48.443 - that you can understand that we're not just doing this as a political boy. And then I was gonna say 00:50:48.443 --> 00:50:58.996 - something else and now I'm forgetting what I was gonna say. That's how my brain works. But at least 00:50:58.996 --> 00:51:04.062 - I said that. So thank you. I would like to add, 00:51:04.386 --> 00:51:10.751 - that in reference to some of the deferred maintenance, deferred maintenance isn't necessarily a reason 00:51:10.751 --> 00:51:16.993 - that something deserves to be torn down. There are plenty of buildings, and I can think of many that 00:51:16.993 --> 00:51:23.420 - the Cooks, for example, have poured a lot of money into that I think the majority of people would agree 00:51:23.420 --> 00:51:27.870 - had a lot of deferred maintenance, and that it probably would have been 00:51:28.066 --> 00:51:36.595 - more cost effective to go ahead and tear them down. But just like it's not necessarily relevant what's 00:51:36.595 --> 00:51:45.041 - happening with the buildings in the future, that deferred maintenance is not necessarily a reason for 00:51:45.041 --> 00:51:53.405 - them to go ahead and be demolished. And they are currently housing people. So Hand, the city itself, 00:51:53.405 --> 00:51:55.806 - has determined that they are 00:51:55.970 --> 00:52:04.212 - are certainly livable to the standard that the city holds. So there's that comment that I want to make. 00:52:04.212 --> 00:52:12.453 - The other thing that I would just like to draw attention to and kind of say and echo some of what Amber 00:52:12.453 --> 00:52:18.238 - said is things don't need to be saved until there is an external threat. 00:52:18.818 --> 00:52:26.506 - And so part of why this hasn't come up before is because demolition delay wasn't relevant, which is 00:52:26.506 --> 00:52:34.656 - one of the reasons why we're now here advocating. And so that's it. Okay. Thank you very much. I remember 00:52:34.656 --> 00:52:42.422 - I was gonna say, can I say it? Yes, you still have some time. Okay, great. Conservation, making it a 00:52:42.422 --> 00:52:44.190 - conservation district, 00:52:44.322 --> 00:52:51.514 - is also important to this group because we're going to be granting it, if we get the land, to a land 00:52:51.514 --> 00:52:58.849 - trust that will hold the land and preserve it, and then to a co-op whose whole point is to keep it out 00:52:58.849 --> 00:53:06.398 - of the speculative market and keep it safe. So just know that the whole point is that we want to conserve 00:53:06.398 --> 00:53:14.302 - the land. Thanks. All right. Thank you. Do you have a comment, if you don't mind? I don't know if that counts. 00:53:15.234 --> 00:53:22.654 - No, not right now. Is there anyone online who wishes to speak? We don't have anyone online. All right, 00:53:22.654 --> 00:53:30.289 - we'll turn to Commissioner Questions next. Commissioner Schlegel, do you have questions? No. Commissioner 00:53:30.289 --> 00:53:37.709 - Golden, do you have questions? No. Commissioner Butler. I have the same question that I had last time. 00:53:37.709 --> 00:53:39.582 - I would like to know how. 00:53:39.682 --> 00:53:47.136 - many of these mid-century commercial buildings we have left. I happen to know that we have one less 00:53:47.136 --> 00:53:54.664 - than we did a moment ago, which is too bad. And so I would beg the commission to give us enough time 00:53:54.664 --> 00:54:02.266 - to answer this question. Okay. Commissioner Duffy, do you have any questions? No. Commissioner Cross? 00:54:02.266 --> 00:54:06.142 - No questions. No questions. Commissioner Baker? No. 00:54:07.010 --> 00:54:14.656 - I have a question for Mr. Sandweiss, the patent. Did he get this patent after he lived there? As far 00:54:14.656 --> 00:54:22.454 - as I can tell, he had two patents. I found a reference to one that he acquired there for Westinghouse. 00:54:22.454 --> 00:54:30.024 - I couldn't find what that patent was. Maybe if I looked a little deeper, he acquired a later patent 00:54:30.024 --> 00:54:34.718 - that I was able to find when he moved to a different company. 00:54:39.490 --> 00:54:46.842 - That brings us to the end of questions. So we'll entertain a motion. Move to release demolitions by 00:54:46.842 --> 00:54:54.341 - 26-09. Commissioner Golden has moved to release demolitions by 26-09. Is there a second? I'll second. 00:54:54.341 --> 00:55:02.060 - Commissioner Baker has seconded. We'll go to Commissioner Comments next. Commissioner Golden. No further 00:55:02.060 --> 00:55:09.118 - comments. No further comments, Commissioner Baker. Just to repeat a few of the comments I made. 00:55:09.250 --> 00:55:19.756 - So they appreciate you coming out and doing what you're doing. It's good work. I think though that we 00:55:19.756 --> 00:55:30.261 - are under such strict, under such stricture here that we have to consider it in a far more strict way 00:55:30.261 --> 00:55:38.398 - than you are presenting in the opposite. We have to look at historic value and 00:55:39.138 --> 00:55:47.934 - While we do consider some of the social aspects of it, it's a rarity that the social aspects become 00:55:47.934 --> 00:55:56.819 - enough to become significant. And I don't think they do in this case. And I don't feel like that the 00:55:56.819 --> 00:56:05.175 - building meets the threshold of historical significance. So again, I'll be voting for release. 00:56:05.175 --> 00:56:07.902 - Thank you. Commissioner Cross. 00:56:09.218 --> 00:56:18.630 - comments aren't really about the building, and it's more about what I've come to accept as normal operating 00:56:18.630 --> 00:56:27.345 - practice for this commission, certainly from what I've seen over the last five years that I've been 00:56:27.345 --> 00:56:36.234 - associated with it. And I'm trying to think of a time where, with two and a half, almost the entirety 00:56:36.234 --> 00:56:38.238 - of a demolition delay, 00:56:38.786 --> 00:56:48.624 - What do you call it? Period of consideration where a commissioner has asked for more information and 00:56:48.624 --> 00:56:58.753 - notwithstanding that request, when there's so much time available, a decision was made and that request 00:56:58.753 --> 00:57:05.182 - has not been entertained. I can't recall ever seeing that happen. 00:57:08.802 --> 00:57:16.632 - I do not see where the petitioners are going to do. There's a need to have these buildings for some 00:57:16.632 --> 00:57:24.540 - purpose that needs to happen within the three months. I don't think there's a plan to demolish these 00:57:24.540 --> 00:57:32.684 - buildings probably for months or years in the future. We have two and a half months remaining. Not one, 00:57:32.684 --> 00:57:36.990 - but two commissioners have asked for time to consider. 00:57:37.890 --> 00:57:48.419 - And we've not been granted it. And I believe that the reason we're asking for time are legitimate reasons 00:57:48.419 --> 00:57:58.551 - that can be accommodated. And I've never seen, certainly in the last five years, that I've been here. 00:57:58.551 --> 00:58:06.398 - And I can't help but see it as a lack of regard for members of the commission. 00:58:11.138 --> 00:58:26.704 - I would like to hear a reason why our requests for what three actually three commissioners have asked 00:58:26.704 --> 00:58:40.286 - for time and for research to be done. And it has not been entertained. I'm disappointed. 00:58:42.850 --> 00:58:53.275 - I would like somebody to explain to me what other way I am to take the actions of this commission in 00:58:53.275 --> 00:59:04.320 - view of a request for more information and to delay the process for about two weeks so that we can satisfy 00:59:04.320 --> 00:59:12.062 - ourselves that we've exhausted avenues for consideration. It's my comment. 00:59:12.610 --> 00:59:21.213 - Thank you. Commissioner Duffy, comments, sorry. Well, I have two comments by way of response to the 00:59:21.213 --> 00:59:29.385 - two comments that the two ladies gave. And to say I agree with both of you. One, the buildings 00:59:29.385 --> 00:59:38.590 - are historical. They just don't reach the level of significance that we have to meet, a very high level of 00:59:38.946 --> 00:59:48.498 - of historical significance in terms of the rest of the community that we're bound by law to meet. And 00:59:48.498 --> 00:59:58.144 - then secondly, you're absolutely right that maintenance is irrelevant to our consideration, unless the 00:59:58.144 --> 01:00:07.134 - building is so bad that it presents a public danger, which is not the case. So I'm sympathetic. 01:00:07.394 --> 01:00:20.211 - to your presentations. But again, I just have to say that as Commissioner Baker said, the standard is 01:00:20.211 --> 01:00:33.530 - so strict and high. And from all evidence, I don't see these buildings meeting the level of significance. 01:00:33.530 --> 01:00:35.038 - Mr. Beller. 01:00:38.594 --> 01:00:45.177 - I find it disappointing. I second what Commissioner Cross said about asking for more time and 01:00:45.177 --> 01:00:52.390 - more information and not receiving it. I think that that is part of our job and I think that to do our 01:00:52.390 --> 01:00:59.883 - job well and to do it thoroughly, we have to be careful and we have to take our time. So I am disappointed 01:00:59.883 --> 01:01:06.885 - that there seems to be some sort of rush in this case. I think this building is also interesting to 01:01:06.885 --> 01:01:08.286 - me and I would like 01:01:08.482 --> 01:01:16.827 - to know more about it. Someone mentioned that there's a recording studio, but it's not clear which of 01:01:16.827 --> 01:01:25.254 - the two buildings the recording studio was in. I would like to know about that. But I guess I probably 01:01:25.254 --> 01:01:33.845 - won't get to. I think this building on its own merits has architectural significance and could be saved. 01:01:33.845 --> 01:01:37.854 - And so I'm going to vote against releasing this. 01:01:38.082 --> 01:01:48.058 - I think I'll just second what Commissioner Butler said. I would like to know a little bit more especially 01:01:48.058 --> 01:01:57.564 - with this one having a resident that had a patent. Noah can just get two more weeks or a little time 01:01:57.564 --> 01:02:07.070 - to find out what that was if it is a big deal or if it's more common one. I don't think two weeks is 01:02:08.098 --> 01:02:15.893 - in the grand scheme of things, gonna hurt anybody or anything unlike this chair. So I'm not gonna lean 01:02:15.893 --> 01:02:24.067 - back. But that's my only comment is that just two weeks just to find out more, just to have a more informed 01:02:24.067 --> 01:02:31.559 - opinion before voting to permanently tear this down or potentially not. So. Okay, thank you. Yeah, 01:02:31.559 --> 01:02:35.646 - for me, based on the information that we've received, 01:02:35.874 --> 01:02:41.924 - The rating of this building, I'm satisfied with the conclusion of the staff recommendation. 01:02:41.924 --> 01:02:48.566 - That is my right, and I can vote in that direction. It speaks no ill will toward anyone else on this 01:02:48.566 --> 01:02:55.536 - commission. Respect everybody here. And sometimes we have differences of opinion, and that's okay. That's 01:02:55.536 --> 01:03:02.244 - why we vote. We find out where we stand. So that's where we're at. All right, I think we are ready to 01:03:02.244 --> 01:03:03.230 - call the vote. 01:03:03.970 --> 01:03:14.205 - OK, there's a motion on the floor that's been seconded regarding demolition delay 2609. We'll take a 01:03:14.205 --> 01:03:24.542 - roll call vote on the release. Chair Baker? Vice Chair Baker. Vice Chair Baker, sorry. You get all of 01:03:24.542 --> 01:03:33.662 - the titles today. Vice Chair Baker. Yes. Excuse me, we have our prior petitioner joining. 01:03:33.762 --> 01:03:44.326 - Going on with the roll call vote, Treasurer Butler? No. Commissioner Duffy? Yes. Commissioner Golden? 01:03:44.326 --> 01:03:54.683 - Yes. Chair Hacker? Yes. Commissioner Schlegel? No. So that is a four in favor and two against. That 01:03:54.683 --> 01:04:03.486 - passes the delay to release the delay. Mr. Baker, would you please read the release? 01:04:03.938 --> 01:04:11.372 - Today, regarding the property located at 222 West 2nd Street, the Historic Preservation Commission declares 01:04:11.372 --> 01:04:18.325 - that it got notice of proposed demolition, partial demolition, and after today's discussion, sees no 01:04:18.325 --> 01:04:25.277 - need to review the plans any further and waives the rest of the demolition delay waiting period. The 01:04:25.277 --> 01:04:32.574 - HPC may later recommend the property for historic designation to the Common Council. Thank you very much. 01:04:32.930 --> 01:04:41.420 - understand that the we will go back up to commission review of certificates of appropriateness I believe 01:04:41.420 --> 01:04:49.505 - the petitioner omnarla is available online is that correct all right so we'll move over to COA 2635 01:04:49.505 --> 01:04:52.254 - Mr. Sandweiss please take it away 01:05:00.962 --> 01:05:11.746 - Hold on, Steph's going to read the report first. All right, but I'm glad to see that you're here. Application 01:05:11.746 --> 01:05:22.236 - for certificate of appropriateness 2635 for 1112 East 3rd Street. This is the Fleener Building. Petitioner 01:05:22.236 --> 01:05:28.510 - is Omnarla. This request, we'll get into the description first. 01:05:29.218 --> 01:05:39.256 - The Fleener building is an individually listed 1928 or 1927. It says 1927 on the transom, but I think 01:05:39.256 --> 01:05:49.098 - it might be 1928. Commercial building. The building uses a textured block with vertically scratched 01:05:49.098 --> 01:05:59.038 - segment bordered by two smooth segments. In the summer of 2026, a car hit the west end of the facade 01:05:59.650 --> 01:06:07.228 - damaging the window and brick wall. This proposed request is to repair the accident damaged brick areas 01:06:07.228 --> 01:06:14.806 - and replace the damaged brick only where necessary. A significant amount of the original brick has been 01:06:14.806 --> 01:06:22.602 - retained and salvaged for reuse. The intent of the work is to preserve and reinstall the existing original 01:06:22.602 --> 01:06:26.974 - brick wherever it is serviceable and appropriate for reuse. 01:06:28.258 --> 01:06:35.219 - The proposed new replacement brick will be used only in areas where the original brick from the accident 01:06:35.219 --> 01:06:42.312 - cannot be reused due to breakage, loss, or severe damage or unsuitable condition. No wholesale replacement 01:06:42.312 --> 01:06:49.206 - of existing brick is proposed. Because this project is subject to historical society review, the repair 01:06:49.206 --> 01:06:55.902 - approach prioritizes preservation of existing brick. A salvaged original brick will be reused first. 01:06:56.450 --> 01:07:03.956 - The replacement brick identified in the submittal is proposed as a supplemental material only for locations 01:07:03.956 --> 01:07:11.393 - where the restored original brick is not available and cannot be used safely or properly. The installation 01:07:11.393 --> 01:07:18.691 - will be performed to maintain the existing wall appearance to the greatest extent practicable, including 01:07:18.691 --> 01:07:23.070 - brick alignment, coursing, affected locations, and the blended 01:07:23.490 --> 01:07:31.186 - with the surrounding existing brickwork as field conditions allow. So I'm going to get into the staff 01:07:31.186 --> 01:07:38.882 - recommendation here. Since this application was submitted, there have been a few sort of reiterations 01:07:38.882 --> 01:07:47.181 - of the proposal, which is why this is being, or part of the reason why this is being presented for commission 01:07:47.181 --> 01:07:50.878 - review when it's using mostly in-kind materials. 01:07:51.650 --> 01:08:00.290 - The staff recommendation is for approval of COA 2635, beginning to the rationale. The Fleener building 01:08:00.290 --> 01:08:08.847 - uses a very unusual type of brick, likely a limited run from the 1920s. There's a few buildings built 01:08:08.847 --> 01:08:17.320 - by this pair of contractors from the 20s, and they all use sort of weird limited edition bricks. The 01:08:17.320 --> 01:08:21.598 - distinctive segments of scratched and smooth brick 01:08:22.210 --> 01:08:28.121 - on this building's particular texture. Having searched through new and salvaged brick available in the 01:08:28.121 --> 01:08:34.090 - state, staff has unfortunately not been able to find a matching replacement. Some portions of the brick 01:08:34.090 --> 01:08:40.059 - on secondary facades have been replaced with an alternative make, but the primary facade on 3rd Street, 01:08:40.059 --> 01:08:46.028 - particularly in the damaged area, is much more conspicuous and uses an unusual bond pattern. The design 01:08:46.028 --> 01:08:49.758 - cannot be matched exactly with either scratched or smooth brick, 01:08:50.498 --> 01:08:57.243 - although patterns of brick themselves can be replicated with either. Considering the apparent unavailability 01:08:57.243 --> 01:09:03.554 - of a more suitable replacement brick and the need to stabilize and seal the building that's currently 01:09:03.554 --> 01:09:09.928 - being rented, staff recommends the approval of the proposed combination of salvaged original brick and 01:09:09.928 --> 01:09:14.878 - new smooth red brick for the repairs. Does the petitioner have anything to add? 01:09:22.242 --> 01:09:30.147 - still there. Yes, I'm on the call. Thank you very much. You've done a really good job explaining. I 01:09:30.147 --> 01:09:38.211 - really have nothing to add. Okay. All right. Public comment. Is there anyone in the room who wants to 01:09:38.211 --> 01:09:46.511 - speak on this? Looking like no. Anyone online? No. All right. We'll move over to Commissioner questions. 01:09:46.511 --> 01:09:51.966 - Commissioner Schlegel, the chair got me earlier too. It's dangerous. 01:09:52.130 --> 01:09:58.035 - Yeah, it's not just you. Noah, thank you very much for the presentation. The only additional question 01:09:58.035 --> 01:10:03.940 - I had based on what was in the packet is it looks like on some graph paper, one of the, is it windows 01:10:03.940 --> 01:10:10.251 - are supposed to be replaced with limestone or just the part below? That's the original plan that I received. 01:10:10.251 --> 01:10:16.329 - And part of the reason why I continue to include that, even though the proposal is for brick replacement 01:10:16.329 --> 01:10:20.382 - now is because that shows where repairs are going to have to be made. 01:10:20.962 --> 01:10:26.435 - which, you know, we additionally have this picture here of the damaged storefront, but this is sort 01:10:26.435 --> 01:10:32.073 - of at an angle, so. Yeah. Mm-hmm. OK. So the window stays. Yes, the window's going to stay. It's going 01:10:32.073 --> 01:10:37.546 - to be blended instead of having limestone put in there. Yes. My understanding, that's going to be a 01:10:37.546 --> 01:10:43.183 - combination of salvaged brick and the smooth red brick. OK. I just want to be 100% sure that you know. 01:10:43.183 --> 01:10:49.040 - Commissioner Golden. I have a comment on that. Hold on. Hold on, please. We do have those windows restored 01:10:49.040 --> 01:10:50.846 - and they're out of the property. 01:10:51.106 --> 01:10:58.365 - when we start installing, if we feel that really bad, can we replace the windows? Well, that's a separate 01:10:58.365 --> 01:11:05.349 - thing. That's a whole new request. Got it. OK. Commissioner Golden. No questions. Excuse me, sir. Can 01:11:05.349 --> 01:11:12.265 - you please hold on? We're doing questions right now. Commissioner Golden. No questions. Commissioner 01:11:12.265 --> 01:11:19.455 - Butler. No questions. It wouldn't matter if I did. Commissioner Duffy. No questions. Commissioner Cross. 01:11:19.455 --> 01:11:20.414 - No questions. 01:11:21.122 --> 01:11:32.906 - Commissioner Baker? Yes. How many square feet or how many brick are we talking about? These replacements. 01:11:32.906 --> 01:11:44.245 - Is that for Noah or the petitioner? Whoever can provide an answer. Mr. Samwise, do you know? I don't. 01:11:44.245 --> 01:11:49.470 - Do you have the sketch pulled up? I have this. 01:11:50.530 --> 01:11:59.976 - It doesn't have measurements, does it? Unless the grab is to scale. For the petitioner, do you know 01:11:59.976 --> 01:12:09.706 - how many square feet this takes up for where the bricks need to be replaced? No, we are not 100% sure. 01:12:09.706 --> 01:12:18.302 - But I can tell you, we will need quite a few. A lot of bricks have been damaged. And also, 01:12:18.562 --> 01:12:29.238 - When we walked with the contractor last week, we also found that around the door also would require 01:12:29.238 --> 01:12:38.846 - some work. We don't have a count on it, but we are assuming it's going to be significant. 01:12:40.834 --> 01:12:49.305 - Would you be willing to make a guess as to how many brick are involved? Is it on the order of 10 bricks? 01:12:49.305 --> 01:12:57.454 - Is it on the order of 100 brick, 200 brick? I'm trying to get an idea of the significance of it, how 01:12:57.454 --> 01:13:06.087 - it's going to show. I would say 100 plus bricks. Okay, thank you. And as to the type of brick, I'm hearing 01:13:06.087 --> 01:13:06.974 - it's a red 01:13:08.418 --> 01:13:21.428 - Is it a glazed brick, or is it a dull brick? We found that it's a red clay called brick. I'm not 100% 01:13:21.428 --> 01:13:34.438 - sure. I'm not an expert in this. But this brick we thought was reasonably good. We're being shown two 01:13:34.438 --> 01:13:36.734 - different things. 01:13:36.898 --> 01:13:45.258 - on the graphic we have up, one is a dull red sort of rough surfaced brick, and the other one appears 01:13:45.258 --> 01:13:53.535 - to be more of a glazed red. And what I'm trying to get at is how this is going to blend with the... 01:13:53.535 --> 01:14:02.061 - Oh, exactly. I'm sorry? We will, the motor will be, we will try to keep the motor same as what we have 01:14:02.061 --> 01:14:04.958 - right now. Yes, I understand that. 01:14:05.122 --> 01:14:13.601 - That's a good point that you made because the mortar's obviously part of this. But anyway, I think, 01:14:13.601 --> 01:14:22.334 - all right, I think that's the only questions I have right now. Thank you. For me, this question is for 01:14:22.334 --> 01:14:30.558 - the petitioner. You said there might need to be some work on the door. When would you know that? 01:14:37.058 --> 01:14:46.512 - waiting to do some of the brick work before you figure out if the door needs something? Right, right. 01:14:46.512 --> 01:14:56.059 - Once we start opening up all the areas, that's when you identify that. OK. Thank you. But that is also 01:14:56.059 --> 01:15:05.420 - part of this damage. So the door is damaged as part of this? It's cracked. It's not fully damaged. I 01:15:05.420 --> 01:15:06.718 - see it crack. 01:15:11.714 --> 01:15:24.276 - Any secondary questions from anybody? No? Okay. All right. I guess now we'll entertain a motion on this. 01:15:24.276 --> 01:15:36.958 - Anybody want to make a motion? I would move approval with the condition that the replacement bricks match 01:15:37.602 --> 01:15:44.980 - closely as possible to the existing brick in terms of color and texture. And of course, the mortar lines 01:15:44.980 --> 01:15:52.217 - should be as close as possible to the existing mortar color. Okay, so you've moved to approve with the 01:15:52.217 --> 01:15:59.385 - condition of the brick condition and color and the mortar? Yes. Okay, is there a second? I'll second. 01:15:59.385 --> 01:16:06.622 - Okay, Commissioner Schlegel is seconded. Commissioner Baker, you made the motion, so you can go first. 01:16:08.386 --> 01:16:16.269 - It's important that it be as close as possible to the original design. And we obviously can't get there, 01:16:16.269 --> 01:16:23.851 - but we could get further from it. If we used a glazed red brick, for example, it's going to show and 01:16:23.851 --> 01:16:31.734 - not going to be something people, I think, want to look at. We want to blend it to make it just as close 01:16:31.734 --> 01:16:35.262 - as possible. And that's why I put in my motion 01:16:35.362 --> 01:16:42.761 - Since we can't find an identical brick, it should be at least a close in color and texture. Okay. You 01:16:42.761 --> 01:16:50.160 - second it. So Commissioner Schlegel, do you have any comments? I'll second what Vice Chair Baker just 01:16:50.160 --> 01:16:57.704 - said as well on that, because it was so well said. So thank you. Okay. Commissioner Gold. So my comment 01:16:57.704 --> 01:17:02.782 - is more like a question. What's the process of approval of the brick? 01:17:05.474 --> 01:17:14.213 - Does it go to NOAA? Does it come back here? I mean, there have been instances in the past where more 01:17:14.213 --> 01:17:23.212 - specific details were requested as part of a conditional approval, in which case, as opposed to sending 01:17:23.212 --> 01:17:31.865 - it back to the commission, it would be staff approval of a proposed material. And that's your sense 01:17:31.865 --> 01:17:35.326 - of how this will work? Yeah. That's it. 01:17:37.730 --> 01:17:45.386 - Commissioner Beller? No. Commissioner Deff? No. Commissioner Crotty? Comments? This is comments. Comments, 01:17:45.386 --> 01:17:52.684 - no comments. Comments. A comment for me. In general, I'm in favor of this. It's a shame what happened 01:17:52.684 --> 01:17:59.839 - to this building. I mean, it just got absolutely obliterated. I appreciate the petitioner trying to 01:17:59.839 --> 01:18:07.710 - blend in whatever bricks that they can salvage in with newer bricks that match as close as they possibly can. 01:18:07.810 --> 01:18:14.129 - in addition to the mortar. If there's any, as the work is being done, if there's any substantial issues 01:18:14.129 --> 01:18:20.327 - with the door or the windows, I think we need to make sure, talk to NOAA and see if there needs to be 01:18:20.327 --> 01:18:26.586 - an addendum to the COA or a new COA just to make sure any future work is matching up with the historic 01:18:26.586 --> 01:18:32.966 - preservation standards we have set up. So that is my comment. Any other secondary comments from anybody? 01:18:32.966 --> 01:18:36.126 - No, seeing none. Okay, I think we're ready to vote. 01:18:37.858 --> 01:18:46.660 - been motioned and seconded for the conditional approval of COA 2635. We'll take a roll call vote. Vice 01:18:46.660 --> 01:18:55.718 - Chair Baker? Yes. Treasurer Butler? Yes. Commissioner Duffy? Yes. Commissioner Golden? Yes. Chair Hacker? 01:18:55.718 --> 01:19:04.349 - Yes. Commissioner Schlegel? Yes. That motion is approved 6-0. All right. Thank you very much for the 01:19:04.349 --> 01:19:05.374 - petitioner. 01:19:05.474 --> 01:19:13.144 - for coming in. Next up, we have old business. We already hit demolition delay. Mr. Sanweiss is their 01:19:13.144 --> 01:19:20.814 - old business. Oh, yes. So the limestone, sorry, Vinegar Hill limestone walking tour, which I believe 01:19:20.814 --> 01:19:29.091 - I brought up at the last meeting. It was supposed to be tomorrow. It's going to be raining all day tomorrow. 01:19:29.091 --> 01:19:35.166 - So it's been postponed for two weeks. Also, I'm going to wait for new business. 01:19:36.994 --> 01:19:47.229 - Anything else. What about training. That's right. Good point. So a while back I sent out an email to 01:19:47.229 --> 01:19:57.464 - everybody from deputy clerk Jennifer Crosley about training for required training for commissioners. 01:19:57.464 --> 01:20:03.038 - Some of you have attended so thank you for doing that. 01:20:04.898 --> 01:20:11.662 - I think this only works if everybody attends. And if not, she's going to have to come in here and give 01:20:11.662 --> 01:20:18.230 - a presentation. And I really like Jennifer and talking to her. But it's going to add some time onto 01:20:18.230 --> 01:20:25.191 - the end of the meeting. So if you need that link again so that you can sign up for one of those sessions, 01:20:25.191 --> 01:20:32.350 - I can resend the email. OK. Excellent. Yes? What was the training about? I didn't get a sense of it. Oh, OK. 01:20:33.538 --> 01:20:40.101 - characterized very broad, general, somewhat vague terms. And I didn't get up. It was difficult for me 01:20:40.101 --> 01:20:46.729 - to figure out how to respond when I didn't know what I was being trained to do. So I mean, some of the 01:20:46.729 --> 01:20:53.293 - people have taken it and speak to what they saw there. My understanding is it's basically two things. 01:20:53.293 --> 01:21:00.049 - It's a standard, what do you call it, code of conduct for commissioners, and then some information about 01:21:00.049 --> 01:21:02.430 - adhering to Robert's Rules of Order. 01:21:03.010 --> 01:21:13.072 - which we have started doing pretty well. It's pretty straightforward. Is there a take-home version of 01:21:13.072 --> 01:21:23.036 - this training? You can do it online, which is what I would do, and then put a cardboard you in front 01:21:23.036 --> 01:21:26.686 - of the screen and go live your life. 01:21:27.106 --> 01:21:39.581 - It's for the lawyers, it's not for us. Yeah, but come on. It's for the lawyers. We have to do it. Democracy 01:21:39.581 --> 01:21:51.132 - is a hell of a thing, as I've been informed very recently. And I'm kind of averse to solutions that 01:21:51.132 --> 01:21:56.446 - don't have a problem they're trying to solve. 01:21:57.922 --> 01:22:06.018 - I think we were interviewed for the job and we got it because those persons who interviewed us believed 01:22:06.018 --> 01:22:13.803 - that we had the competence and the professionalism and the judgment and bearing to do the job. Then 01:22:13.803 --> 01:22:22.055 - now to come and have us spend time in front of a screen or have somebody give us a presentation to ensure 01:22:22.055 --> 01:22:27.582 - that we have those qualities that we were found and judged to have had 01:22:28.258 --> 01:22:36.420 - to get this job makes no sense to me. Now, if it is that there's some specific requirement, let's throw 01:22:36.420 --> 01:22:44.346 - Robert's Rules, for example. I read very well. You could just say, read Robert's Rules and make sure 01:22:44.346 --> 01:22:52.194 - that you know it before your first meeting, and that works for me. Again, we're all grown-ups here. 01:22:52.194 --> 01:22:57.374 - Does that ordinance pass by the city council that's requiring it? 01:22:57.986 --> 01:23:05.823 - Do the city councilors have to do this training? They do some form of training. Okay, well, I can pass 01:23:05.823 --> 01:23:13.583 - the ordinance. Cardboard, you said that works? I didn't do that. We do not advocate. Again, solutions 01:23:13.583 --> 01:23:21.344 - must, again, if that's what it requires that I turn it on, I go mow the lawn and I come back and I go 01:23:21.344 --> 01:23:26.974 - check, then why? I don't think there is that option. I think it's really, 01:23:27.586 --> 01:23:34.065 - intended for people to listen. So I can listen to it while I'm mowing the lawn? Sure. Why not? Or I 01:23:34.065 --> 01:23:41.128 - can just have it sat there on a table while I mow the lawn. Is there an online version? Yeah. Unfortunately, 01:23:41.128 --> 01:23:48.060 - I was foolish not to do that. Almost everyone at the training session I went to was online. And so there's 01:23:48.060 --> 01:23:54.734 - like six people in the room. And then just all these names on the screen, which maybe they were there, 01:23:54.734 --> 01:23:56.030 - maybe they weren't. 01:23:56.194 --> 01:24:03.823 - You see, sometimes you have to be careful what you say yes to, because that says a lot about you and 01:24:03.823 --> 01:24:11.602 - your values. And if somebody's going to treat you like an infant, and you allow them to treat you like 01:24:11.602 --> 01:24:19.608 - an infant, you're in essence saying that I accept that I'm an infant. But again, that's just one person's 01:24:19.608 --> 01:24:23.838 - opinion. All right. New business. Questions? Oh, sorry. 01:24:24.802 --> 01:24:32.652 - No, you sent me a link. Unfortunately, the link listed all of those that were passed. I didn't see any 01:24:32.652 --> 01:24:40.502 - coming in the future. And then there were a couple of sign-ins to get to the form that just completely 01:24:40.502 --> 01:24:48.124 - baffled my computer. So again, I've been having trouble with technology lately, but this was one of 01:24:48.124 --> 01:24:54.526 - those where it just wanted a password or something, and it just didn't work at all. 01:24:54.818 --> 01:25:02.307 - I'm looking for a little help saying that the deputy clerk hasn't shown up to one of our meetings yet. 01:25:02.307 --> 01:25:09.651 - I don't think it's out of the question that there might be more meetings so I can check with her new 01:25:09.651 --> 01:25:17.140 - business. Anything new business. OK. Something I wanted to bring up is the state historic preservation 01:25:17.140 --> 01:25:24.702 - conference has been announced. I mean we knew the dates and location but the agenda has been announced. 01:25:25.474 --> 01:25:34.402 - So in addition to everything else that you might find useful or interesting there, there is every year 01:25:34.402 --> 01:25:43.244 - a program called CAMP that's commissioner something and mentorship program, which is specifically for 01:25:43.244 --> 01:25:51.999 - members of historic preservation commissions. Every year, a couple of scholarships are given to each 01:25:51.999 --> 01:25:54.686 - preservation commission that's 01:25:54.882 --> 01:26:03.379 - a member of this National Alliance of Preservation Commissions, which we're a member of. Those scholarships 01:26:03.379 --> 01:26:11.247 - are not usually given out until later. But if you're interested in going to the state conference or 01:26:11.247 --> 01:26:19.665 - camp, have this on your radar. It's going to be the end of September in, gosh, what's that town? Franklin, 01:26:19.665 --> 01:26:23.678 - Indiana. It's a good conference. I went last year. 01:26:23.810 --> 01:26:32.763 - Got one of those scholarships. It was great. Got to learn about some of the commission stuff, but then 01:26:32.763 --> 01:26:41.541 - there's a lot of other sort of things about historic preservation going on. So if you're interested, 01:26:41.541 --> 01:26:50.494 - please let me know. Let me see. I think it's September 28th or 29th through October 1st. Yep. So yeah. 01:26:50.722 --> 01:26:57.759 - Let Noah know if you're interested so he can kind of loop you in when, when they make those available 01:26:57.759 --> 01:27:04.865 - and see how to distribute those out. Um, I went last year, so I won't go this time around to make sure 01:27:04.865 --> 01:27:11.763 - somebody else can, uh, take, take advantage of that. So, um, anything else on new business, uh, Mr. 01:27:11.763 --> 01:27:18.731 - Sam Weiss? Not that I can think of. Okay. Uh, commissioner comments is next. Anyone wish to make any 01:27:18.731 --> 01:27:20.318 - further comments? Yes. 01:27:21.058 --> 01:27:34.568 - Commissioner Cross. Sometimes it might seem facetious when I make reference to democracy, but I'm not. 01:27:34.568 --> 01:27:48.341 - I'm very serious. And not just as a member of the public, but certainly as a commissioner in my standing 01:27:48.341 --> 01:27:50.046 - as advisory. 01:27:56.258 --> 01:28:05.698 - I believe that every commissioner has an equal right to make their positions heard on any issue. 01:28:05.698 --> 01:28:15.429 - I like rules, I like regulations, I like things in black and white because it keeps me centered and 01:28:15.429 --> 01:28:24.382 - focused as to what my role is. I also believe that bodies like this should be deliberative. 01:28:24.546 --> 01:28:37.825 - and take every opportunity to make the best decision, having availed themselves of all the information. 01:28:37.825 --> 01:28:51.998 - The persons who were asked to be or were invited to be on this body have skill sets that are broad and varied. 01:28:56.930 --> 01:29:05.216 - listen to very carefully the opinions of my commissioners. Whenever we make a decision, it affects the 01:29:05.216 --> 01:29:13.422 - lives of all the members in our community, or the members in our community in a very significant way. 01:29:13.422 --> 01:29:22.110 - And if it is that I'm going to make a decision and there's more information out there, I'd like to hear it. 01:29:26.946 --> 01:29:38.535 - I've been here long enough to see that even though we may disagree, we're more collegiate than competitive 01:29:38.535 --> 01:29:49.366 - or adversarial. Because despite our ways of doing things and our proclivities, I believe that there 01:29:49.366 --> 01:29:56.190 - to be a general respect and regard for the opinions of others. 01:29:57.762 --> 01:30:04.011 - know personally, I'm not going to speak for anybody else, where I've been in position to something or 01:30:04.011 --> 01:30:10.506 - been in support of something and have been swayed by one person on this commission. I'm not an architect, 01:30:10.506 --> 01:30:16.816 - so I listen to the architects. I'm not a historian, so I listen to the historian. I'm not a contractor 01:30:16.816 --> 01:30:23.188 - or skilled in construction, so I listen to these people. And if someone says, hey, I believe this, give 01:30:23.188 --> 01:30:26.558 - me an opportunity to go do some research and come back 01:30:26.754 --> 01:30:38.943 - I make a presentation. I have always been inclined to allow that. And my experience here, and I would 01:30:38.943 --> 01:30:51.131 - even use the word precedent setting, that that is the way we do things. There is no downside to that. 01:30:51.131 --> 01:30:54.238 - I can only see an upside. 01:30:55.810 --> 01:31:03.777 - And if it is that hearing all the information, my position doesn't change, it makes me feel better knowing 01:31:03.777 --> 01:31:11.372 - that I made the decision with all the information, hearing all the opinions properly ventilated. This 01:31:11.372 --> 01:31:18.818 - is the only place legally that we can discuss among ourselves anything related to matters that come 01:31:18.818 --> 01:31:24.254 - before us. It's usually the first time and a lot of times the only time. 01:31:24.866 --> 01:31:34.563 - We cannot meet outside of this body and discuss anything. And even though it's not written 01:31:34.563 --> 01:31:45.326 - in the regulations, maybe a lawyer in here could say that there certainly have been rules or process 01:31:45.326 --> 01:31:50.334 - established by common law, by common practice. 01:31:56.290 --> 01:32:06.767 - Whenever we make a decision, not only do we need to be able to defend it credibly, but it should stand 01:32:06.767 --> 01:32:17.143 - to historical scrutiny. And one of the ways of ensuring that happens is to avail ourselves of all the 01:32:17.143 --> 01:32:24.670 - information, listening to all the opinions. I've seen us sit in this room 01:32:25.090 --> 01:32:36.095 - for five hours, half of which was spent on one issue. I have seen where matters that are seemingly 01:32:36.095 --> 01:32:47.322 - insignificant have captured the time and the attention of this body for hours, for weeks. We've sent 01:32:47.322 --> 01:32:51.102 - for samples, we've sent for this, 01:32:51.682 --> 01:32:59.784 - gone report, we've redone drawings, we've done all of these things. And it's tedious, it's time consuming. 01:32:59.784 --> 01:33:07.432 - But I come back here every single sitting of this board because I believe that it's important. And I 01:33:07.432 --> 01:33:15.307 - need to be able to go out there and face every single member of this community. And if challenged about 01:33:15.307 --> 01:33:18.942 - a decision that I have made, I can say, listen, 01:33:21.762 --> 01:33:31.168 - We ventilated this over X amount of hours, X amount of meetings, even if I personally have acquiesced. 01:33:31.168 --> 01:33:40.299 - When I'm certain of how I was gonna vote, but I believed it was important to give the other members 01:33:40.299 --> 01:33:49.431 - of this commission the opportunity to make their case. Sometimes it swayed me, sometimes it hasn't. 01:33:49.431 --> 01:33:51.166 - I have never left. 01:33:51.426 --> 01:34:04.738 - commission feeling that I have not been given an opportunity to fully express and vent my opinion and 01:34:04.738 --> 01:34:19.486 - position on a topic ever until today. And it is sad. I will say that I hope this is an anomaly because I believe 01:34:20.258 --> 01:34:31.418 - ourselves and our community and our mandate at this service. This wasn't an arbitrary request for time. 01:34:31.418 --> 01:34:42.364 - We had three commissioners out of six, six, seven, 50% asking, pleading on two separate occasions and 01:34:42.364 --> 01:34:46.334 - two separate votes for an extension. 01:34:46.882 --> 01:34:54.185 - on a three-month matter when we're less than 20% in on the time allowable. I don't believe that should 01:34:54.185 --> 01:35:01.488 - have even been a matter to be considered for a vote. If it were up to me, that would have been written 01:35:01.488 --> 01:35:08.932 - in our rules. That is how significant I believe it is. We were not at the end of our time allowed. There 01:35:08.932 --> 01:35:13.470 - was no overriding reason that the decision had to be made today 01:35:13.570 --> 01:35:25.327 - And we had three commissioners asking for additional time to explore other matters brought forward. 01:35:25.327 --> 01:35:37.673 - It is my opinion that in this consultative process, that the least that could have been done is to allow 01:35:37.673 --> 01:35:42.846 - for this matter to be tabled for two weeks. 01:35:47.714 --> 01:35:53.829 - Thank you. Commissioner Baker, you had your hand. Just a little bit of rebuttal. It wasn't a matter 01:35:53.829 --> 01:35:59.943 - for rebuttal. It was just an opinion. No, I'm going to make a comment. I'm making a comment. That's 01:35:59.943 --> 01:36:05.630 - all I'm doing. But seek not to rebut my comment. If you have an independent comment to make, 01:36:05.630 --> 01:36:12.234 - you make it. Mr. Cross, please let Commissioner Baker speak, but please also make sure this is not directed 01:36:12.234 --> 01:36:15.230 - at anyone. I am simply going to state procedure. 01:36:16.386 --> 01:36:27.818 - The procedure played out. A motion was made and seconded and voted on. And while you have a motion ongoing, 01:36:27.818 --> 01:36:38.403 - you don't make other motions. I agree that there were comments made that worked against the motion. 01:36:38.403 --> 01:36:45.918 - People didn't want to, but the motion was made. The motion was passed. 01:36:46.178 --> 01:36:55.707 - Basically, that's it. If a motion had been made to transfer to another meeting or ask for additional 01:36:55.707 --> 01:37:05.425 - information at a later meeting, that could have been done, but it wasn't. There was a time period when 01:37:05.425 --> 01:37:13.822 - our president asked for a motion. There was a delay, I noticed. There wasn't anyone who, 01:37:13.954 --> 01:37:21.055 - immediately jumped to make a motion. In fact, I seconded a motion that somebody made, but there was 01:37:21.055 --> 01:37:28.369 - a time lapse there. And so the opportunity was there to make a motion to delay. But that motion wasn't 01:37:28.369 --> 01:37:35.824 - made. A motion was made and carried out. That's the simple politics, not the politics. That's the simple 01:37:35.824 --> 01:37:41.150 - dynamics of the way the commission works. There's nothing wrong with that. 01:37:42.306 --> 01:37:48.955 - that's just the way that's just the way it works and that's the way it will continue to work. Thank 01:37:48.955 --> 01:37:55.604 - you commissioner Baker again commissioner Butler again please make sure we're just. Just a question 01:37:55.604 --> 01:38:02.785 - I'm not sure about the procedure so if the motion is already on the table if we're considering a demolition 01:38:02.785 --> 01:38:09.567 - delay is that what then is on the table or is it so in other words nothing else could have been voted 01:38:09.567 --> 01:38:12.094 - on until so the fact that there was a 01:38:12.546 --> 01:38:20.241 - pause wouldn't have mattered. Nothing else could have been voted on until the demolition delay was voted 01:38:20.241 --> 01:38:27.642 - down. Is that right? And then a new thing could be brought up? And I think you also the you can make 01:38:27.642 --> 01:38:35.117 - a motion before the to release to say, you know, request to move on if before that had occurred or if 01:38:35.117 --> 01:38:37.022 - that request or motion to 01:38:37.538 --> 01:38:45.554 - release had been voted down, then a subsequent motion could be made. So there was no opportunity to 01:38:45.554 --> 01:38:53.651 - present a separate motion. So I don't understand what the point is. We're all making comments. We're 01:38:53.651 --> 01:39:01.827 - not having a cross common argument here. So Commissioner Butler has the floor. I just had a question. 01:39:01.827 --> 01:39:07.198 - Thank you. Anybody else have any comments? If I may be allowed to. 01:39:07.362 --> 01:39:17.589 - make one more comment, and I really have to leave. I learned very early in my schooling a phrase, comment, 01:39:17.589 --> 01:39:27.146 - idiom, what you call it. And it goes, the rules are meant for the guidance of the wise. Guidance of 01:39:27.146 --> 01:39:37.182 - the wise. And I'll leave the rest of that comment hanging lest somebody believe I'm calling them a fool. 01:39:37.282 --> 01:39:45.057 - which that's not my intention. But it's the first part of that comment. And this is why we make rules 01:39:45.057 --> 01:39:52.831 - can be changed. If we recognize in a process that the rules that govern that process do not serve the 01:39:52.831 --> 01:40:00.682 - ends, we are not slaves to that rule. And as intelligent people, we should be able to sit back and go, 01:40:00.682 --> 01:40:04.798 - hold on. If we go this way, it gets us to an end that 01:40:05.058 --> 01:40:13.896 - We probably don't want to, let's figure out a way because rules are contextual. They're made for a time, 01:40:13.896 --> 01:40:22.566 - for a set of circumstances. And those circumstances may change or different factors present themselves 01:40:22.566 --> 01:40:30.310 - where the purpose of these rules may not suit the ends for which these rules were designed. 01:40:30.310 --> 01:40:34.014 - And like I said, we're a deliberative body. 01:40:35.490 --> 01:40:45.973 - We're meant to sit here and argue, and argument must be based on information. And all I'm saying is, 01:40:45.973 --> 01:40:56.663 - for us to do our best job at what we were brought here to do, we should seek to avail ourselves of all 01:40:56.663 --> 01:41:05.278 - the available information, documented opinions of experts, different perspectives, 01:41:05.538 --> 01:41:14.579 - from different people. That is, maybe I'm spoiled. That is what I've grown used to. That is what I thought 01:41:14.579 --> 01:41:23.028 - I signed up for. That is what I believe is the best way to go about our business. And I really hope 01:41:23.028 --> 01:41:31.731 - that that is the way we move forward. Mr. Chair, I really need to go. Thank you very much for allowing 01:41:31.731 --> 01:41:34.942 - me to ventilate my issues, gentlemen. 01:41:35.458 --> 01:41:43.435 - have a good evening. Two more weeks. I'll see you. All right. My comments are thank you all very much 01:41:43.435 --> 01:41:51.255 - for coming here today, participating in this. I know we didn't all agree on this. That happens. And 01:41:51.255 --> 01:41:59.231 - that's okay. That's part of what this is. We had a vote. We had a motion. We had a discussion. I know 01:41:59.231 --> 01:42:04.158 - some people are upset about that. That's okay. We took a vote. 01:42:04.290 --> 01:42:09.922 - and the majority of people voted how they did. And then we move on. That's how this commission works. 01:42:09.922 --> 01:42:15.555 - That's how it will always work. That's also democracy. Sometimes you're not happy with the end of the 01:42:15.555 --> 01:42:21.132 - vote, and that's okay. I think it's important here that we all retain our respect for each other and 01:42:21.132 --> 01:42:26.765 - understand and not call into question people's motives. I do not question any of your motives for how 01:42:26.765 --> 01:42:32.287 - you voted one way or the other, and I would hope and expect that you would do the same for everyone 01:42:32.287 --> 01:42:32.894 - else here. 01:42:33.858 --> 01:42:43.849 - So that is my comment. Is there any public comment? Is there anyone online? All right, we've come to 01:42:43.849 --> 01:42:49.982 - the end of our meeting. This meeting is adjourned. Thank you.