Welcome to the City of Bloomington Redevelopment Commission meeting for Monday, November 2nd, 2026.
We will start the meeting with a roll call. I just wanted to check, is Lori online? Okay, that's fine.
Just wanted to know what we got. Okay, roll call, please. C. Scamblari? Here. Brandi Cassidy here. John
West here. Deborah Meyerson here. And staff present, please. Hannah Tilly-Hudson. Christina Finley,
Hand Department. Amy Calzwell, Hand Department.
Jeff McKim, City Control. Jane Cooper-Smith, Economic and Sustainable Development. Michael Bitsky, City
Engineering. Hannah Dragovich, ESD. Okay. Dana Kerr, Legal. Thank you. And we will start with Director's
Reports, please. Do we have a report from hand? No Director's Report from me. However, we do have Mr.
John Zote here to give his annual report from CDFI Friendly.
Welcome. Thank you. Now you got a busy agenda tonight, so I'll be. As fast as I can here. I hope that
I can. So right as I see my email there. So I have. As Anna mentioned, I'm John Zoe from CDFI Friendly
Bloomington. And.
wanted to give our annual report to the RDC as we do every year. I'll go through quickly some of what
a CDFI is just for those watching at home and anybody that may be new to learning about our organization.
But we are a community development nonprofit organization that is a CDFI is the acronym for that and CDFIs are
mission-based lenders on a mission for responsible, affordable lending for community development projects.
So we help people in populations and communities that are generally economically distressed, disadvantaged,
underbanked, meaning they're not able to obtain traditional financing from banks. And we exist as a
$500 billion sector of, $500 billion sector of lending across the United States that sort of sit alongside banks.
for when they are unable to help folks. So we cover a... My slides aren't advanced, so you're everyone,
I'm sorry. There we go. So we cover a 13-county region here in the Indiana Uplands. Eleven of our counties
are the Uplands counties, if you know of regional opportunity initiatives that covers the Uplands for
regional economic development. We are a partner of theirs, and we also have Morgan and Jackson counties.
We help provide access to loans for folks that may not be able to get them in banks, like I mentioned,
and also provide free technical assistance to projects and those folks who might be looking for financing
for their small business. And I want to take a minute to recognize Emma Yoder, our program coordinator,
who has taken on a lot of small business activity this year for the organization.
So what is a CDFI friendly Bloomington? So that's that's told you a little bit about what a CDFI is.
But our job as a CDFI friendly, the friendly comes in because we are designed to be a connector. Most
CDFIs are direct lenders. They're called loan funds. So we are one of 1300 CDFIs that are certified
by the US Treasury, which spoke about that a little bit last year. But that's a vetting process you
go through to make sure that you are sort of doing the right things as a
loan fund financial institution. We are not regulated like banks are because we don't hold people's
money. We're not depository institutions, but we do go through the process of being certified to gain
access to US Treasury programs. If you've heard of programs like the New Markets Tax Credit,
the technical assistance grant program, financial assistance, which is loan capital that can be delivered
to communities through the U.S. Treasury's CDFI fund. And those are generally only available at organizations
if you have that certification. So in addition to providing that technical assistance and access to
loans for those that might need them, we also were awarded a second $500,000 EPA brownfields grant.
So when you're looking at
community development across the board, thinking about a housing project, thinking about someone wanting
to acquire a piece of property, a small business or a facility for childcare, we cannot come in and
pay for those initial environmental assessments, something this body knows well, phase one, a phase
two assessment to understand what's under the surface so that you're getting a better idea of what you
might be acquiring, especially when there's housing or where,
kids might be present. So we were glad to get a $500,000 grant three years ago that is spent down, and
we were just awarded another one. So we have a fresh $500,000 we are able to spread across the region
to get assessments done. So as far as what the eligibility and uses for CDFI loans are, we're really
talking, our organization focuses in three main areas, small business, housing, and nonprofits, which
kind of includes childcare most of the time.
Small business and business lending is something banks do quite a bit of, and we work with banks, they
work with us, but they can't help everybody, especially if it's a startup, because there's a lack of
sort of financial history, tax returns. So with startups, they may be looking for financing, a smaller
amount of financing, and that's where the CDFI community can come in. As long as they're registered,
a business entity with a state, they've been in business. Sometimes for one day, they can get access
to certain levels of CDFI financing, housing,
We are part of the capital stack for a project. So the sort of pool of financing that it takes to get
a project across the finish line, that may be a grant. We've worked with the city a number of times
on housing projects for affordable housing, so that income-restricted housing. We have come in with
a loan with a partnering CDFI, and the city has come in with a grant. So we can help with that cash
flow and the debt service coverage on a project.
And we can also bring in other CDFI partners to come and help with pre-development expenses or acquisition
of property and things like that. With nonprofits, there are specific CDFIs out there that help organizations
with their structure and their basic operating
that status, I guess, if you will. They can come in and do facility assessments. If it's a nonprofit
child care, they can help assess whether a child care might, what a child care might need for a building.
And so they're gonna come in and help and offer bridge lending. A lot of times if there's a capital
campaign going on, a CDFI partner can come in and do a bridge loan as the nonprofit is working to fundraise
for their project. So a lot of different ways
CDFI lending, mission-based lending here in the region can help make a difference. So in terms of what
our technical assistance looks like, that is, again, free. I want to make sure people know that that's
free. But we will work one-on-one with project leads, whatever it is, a small business owner,
an entrepreneur, a housing project, a child care. They'll come in the door and we will help them walk
through their project and think about what steps they might want to take next. And many times that may
be connecting them with a lender.
a CDFI partner, but the first question we'll ask them, do you have a relationship with a bank?
If you do, have you spoken to them? Are they able to help you? If not, okay, let's talk a little more.
We met with someone today, for instance, who was not able to get help from a bank, and so we're looking
around now. Our next action step from that meeting, that technical assistance meeting we had, was to
reach out to a lender we know that specifically works in the project area where that
Person is interested and we're going to reach out and try to get them connected to understand better
what their project might need next that is a project that could be Operating in multi and in about three
counties in our region. So it has reached outside the city of Bloomington as well
And then we follow up. We have a customer pipeline that we develop and work with our clients and hopefully
if they've been referred from a bank then we can create that customer pipeline for the financial institutions
in our region. So right now we have about 25 projects in our pipeline. We track that monthly along with
our impact. So as far as our impact goes, the 25 projects in our pipeline are a subset
This year, we've worked on 11 housing projects, 24 small businesses, and 21 nonprofits in child care.
And that could be everything from them getting connected to a loan, a financing product, to us having
ongoing technical assistance with them. Housing projects, as this group knows, can take a while, and
so those are an immediate turnaround. And so we are glad, though, that
we can see some of those projects moving through our pipeline and that we kind of leaned into small
business this year. We have not been doing a ton of small business work and this year kind of said we're
going to really take small business in and figure out how we can sort of increase our flow there. And
Emma has been a big part of that and working with a lot of clients to understand what financing is for
the different stages of businesses.
So overall, we've had about $29 million of additional CDFI investment in our region over the life of
our organization and Jane Cooper-Smith's in here, our former executive director. It's about 425 housing
units that have been created or preserved. And that's not us.
building and lending on every one, but that's technical assistance, that's partnering lending, that
is impacting the conversation and connecting those projects that may not have been able to get traditional
financing with the CDFI to get those units online here in the region. And overall, that's about $74
million in projects over the last five to six years. So when you take a look back,
take a kind of a bird's eye view of this across the country. I talked about this last year, but it's
important to point out why CDFIs are important. The lending industry, the traditional lending industry
with banks is pretty robust. We want to avoid predatory lending. So this community development sector
of lending is really important to sit alongside traditional lending in regions across the country and
in Indiana. We are underserved by community development lending.
In the last 20 years or so, if you spread CDFI lending across each resident of the United States, you'd
get about $825 a person. In Indiana during that time, we are at—well, right now we are at $57. When
our organization started, that was $22. So you see the per capita amount increasing slowly, but
In other parts of the country, you see a much larger number in how that lending is spread out. We are
what's called an opportunity market for community development lending, where there's really only been
kind of one lending industry available in addition to that predatory lending. So we want to try to get
in there and fill gaps across the region where we can. So just over the last year, in addition to our
300 hours of technical assistance, we've
These are just pictures of different events we've been to. We've made a couple trips to DC for some
important conversations with our federal representatives, talking about those federal programs that
I mentioned earlier. We've presented at a number of conferences and just really tried to get out there
and make sure people know that
the community development lending industry is there for them when they're not able to access other financing
and that's really important and you do that by word of mouth. We've been to about 100 events this year,
had a lot of conversations and just trying to make sure people know that word of mouth is there and
they can contact us if they need it. Our latest visual example of the project we've worked on is the
Chandler Early Learning Center up at the Bloomington Housing Authority with Summit Hill Community Development
Corporation.
We were one of many partners on this, IHCDA, the City of Bloomington, the Community Foundation, lots
of folks over the last five years helped get this project done. And this is a childcare center serving
29 kids, ages zero to three, and there are three units of affordable housing on the second floor. We're
really proud to be a partner on that to help finish out construction with IHCDA as the other lender there.
And then just an example of a small business, Andrew Statiker has a business on the east side called
a clientele, or Supreme Clientele, Minspa. We were able to help him with a loan with Allies for Community
Business. Allies is a CDFI out of Chicago that we work a lot with. They're a micro lender. So their
average loan size is about $15,000. And we have given them, or loaned them, I should say, capital to
get lending, to do those small loans out in our region.
And then they'll, of course, return that capital back to us after a certain period of time. But they've
got the infrastructure to do those small micro loans and have been able to help a lot of entrepreneurs.
And so we are working with them on a sort of capital partnership to get more small business amped up
in the region. So that's it. I'll be happy to take questions. I really appreciate the opportunity to
present annually. And I really appreciate the RDC's support over the years of our organization.
make good on that support and get capital dollars out the door, make sure we are focusing hard
on project-based work and providing that technical assistance so that we can get more things done here
in the region as a community partner. So any questions? Yeah. Thank you for the presentation. Thank
you for all you've included here about impact of CDFI-friendly Bloomington. I'm curious about
not just how you measure impact, but how you measure success. Do we benchmark ourselves against other
CDFI friendlies? How does that work? That's a good question. There aren't that many other CDFI friendlies.
There are four of us across the country. Two of the others are in Indiana, South Bend, and Evansville.
So there isn't a benchmark, so to speak, to measure ourselves against. I just asked last week about
that technical assistance. That is something every
CDFI has to do if you're certified technical assistance slash development services is one of those things
you have to provide and so I said for a two-person shop kind of what's our benchmark what should that
be for technical assistance and the experts in the field are the folks that helped us get started and
seem to be and they're they're consultants in the industry said you know we're doing pretty well with
our technical assistance hours but we need to make sure we're outpacing last year which so far we will
we outpace 2024 and so
We have a sheet, an impact sheet that we update monthly for our board that says how many technical assistance
hours, how many training hours, how many folks have we helped, just to sort of measure what that is,
because we're kind of breaking new ground here as an organization, because it's an unusual setup for
CDFI. Most are just loan funds, and I shouldn't say just, but most of their activity are those loans,
and they have a lot of loan volume. Our genesis was not loan volume as much as it was to connect
projects with other lenders around the country, and to kind of be a hub, and to be the boots on the
ground. So we're kind of blazing a trail here, but it's still important to measure that success, and
we're able to kind of chart what that is. Thank you. Commissioner West. First of all, that event last
week was great. Oh, thanks. It was well done, and I learned quite a bit from being there. How do you
fund yourself operationally?
a couple of different ways. We have a loan portfolio that comes in. We get payments. We have some interest
there. That is a piece of our operations. The Urban Enterprise Association has given us operational
dollars and we have another grant from the city. We also get grants from from banking partners. So we
are able to access those federal programs. So we just got done with a $300,000 technical assistance
grant whose purpose is to provide those
services on the ground. So we just spent that down last month, actually, and that was a that was a two
to three year grant. So a lot of different sources, but it's getting more competitive. And so we're
always looking for ways to make sure that we can be more self sufficient. One of those is to grow our
loan portfolio and have proceeds and interest coming in. So working on that. Thanks. Yes, sir.
of your project pipeline, how many of them are in our municipal area? That is a great question. I can
get that to you, Commissioner. I will say that our technical assistance, we do about 60% of our technical
assistance inside Bloomington. So the pipeline is strong. I would say this year, it's been a lot of
activity is in Bloomington. The majority of those housing projects, the 11 that we've worked on have
been in Bloomington, most of the small businesses. So it's at least a majority. Majority, of course. Yeah.
look at where you're, if you can explain a little bit how you're working with Ally out of Chicago as
them taking care of things easily. What is the amount of micro loans they will loan up to, you know,
we're comfortable from a financial standpoint with CDFI to help build our small businesses? Yeah, so
we loaned them a fairly modest amount of capital just to get the partnership going and to keep, because
we don't have a ton ourselves as far as capital goes. They will loan as little as $500 all the way up
to $100,000 for
entrepreneurs who have been in business for two years or less. Once you get above that, they have a
revenue-based financing model where they can do $250,000 if your numbers will show that you can support
that sort of debt. Their average loan is about $15,000. And so for us, we've been able to close a couple
of loans this year that are in the
$2500 range that is sort of a starter amount that they'll do if you haven't been in business very long
you need to kind of get going we worked with somebody that was wanting to start a web to get their website
going and just some basic business expenses here and there if they just had no cash and so you can pretty
easily with you know through an application get
get that $2,500 from allies, and then that's called a credit builder, so you can then build up. If you
do well with that, then you can get more money. So the idea is to increase the amount that you're able
to borrow. And as it builds up, if they've been in business and they can support it, it could go up
to $250,000. That's correct. And when we look at it, is this comparable bank interest rates, or are
these a little bit sub-interest rate in order to try to build up our entrepreneurial and our
small businesses? On the small business side, they're actually going to be a little bit higher than banks,
A CDFI borrower traditionally has a profile where they may not be in a secure financial position as
someone who can get a bank loan, right? So their credit score may be a factor. A lack of collateral
may be a factor. Being in business for a very little period of time, a bank won't usually do that. So
a CDFI will have a couple of basis points, you know,
allies rates run between nine and twelve percent I think so that's above market but not too far and
it definitely not predatory we want to be very clear that the predatory loan industry is you're gonna
get into the 20s and 30s with a lot of fees so we want to. Approximately nine to twelve with no prepayments
and such so. That's right. You know as we start out our small businesses you know even the largest business
small that start does a small one so. Yeah. Those capital. So so the product is designed to be flexible
you may pay a higher interest rate but.
the flexibility is there. So if something isn't going well, they'll want to renegotiate the terms and
try to not. So if anyone's out here listening and such identifies that, how do they actually go through
an application by contacting you? Yeah, go to our website and contact myself, John Zote or Emma Yoder.
We'll see what they have, what's in there.
idea pipeline, if you will, and then see if they should be connected with a lender, or if we want to
work with them a little bit. Or we may refer them to the SBDC, the Small Business Development Center,
if they don't have a business plan that's finished, or they have some legal stuff they need worked out.
We don't provide legal advice. That's SBDC and others. So they'll come back to us when they might be
ready to talk about financing. If they need that, what kind of time frame does this entail? It varies.
So with a small business loan,
of the sort of under $10,000 you can usually we're talking a week or two if everything goes well. Housing
projects will take a while to underwrite. Usually that's a 90 day to 120 day start to finish. But for
small business, we're talking weeks. Small business. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you.
Do you foresee any potential for where RDC business might intersect with what CDFI friendly Bloomington could do
I'm thinking, for example, Hobo South, as those units move towards development, but there may be others
as well. I'm just curious if you have insights or thoughts that might be helpful just to pique our interest
for the future. Yeah, I do. I think, you know, certainly rely on you all and staff at the city to sort
of guide how that's all developed, but certainly CDFI's could be a lending partner.
there. I think one thing we've talked about some is that in the CDFI community, there aren't a lot of
mortgage products, right? So we're talking about how to increase homeownership here in Bloomington or
anywhere else in the region. There aren't a lot of CDFIs that do mortgages, but banks, banks do mortgages
that can be designed for those who might need an affordable
product right so banks kind of have this community development lending responsibility a lot of mortgages
operate in that space and so we've worked with banking partners to try to collect some mortgage information
that may be a way we can help we're here to here to help the city however can get that done we've tried
to be supportive during the PUD development and consideration process just to keep those options flexible
for how we can develop housing because
I don't have to tell anybody in this room. It takes a while. I need a lot of tools on the table to get
it done. So I'm glad to be a partner. Anything else? OK. Thank you so much for the presentation. Thank
you all. Thank you, John. So next on our agenda, we have another. Well, we have legal report. Is that?
My discussion will come later. OK.
So we will come back to that. We have a treasurer's report. Yeah, so this is the first of two items
today in which my role is primarily to introduce Justin Chang from Leedy. This is also the first of two
statutorily required presentations that are being provided. This one in particular is the, under the
Treasurer's Report, is the annual TIF impact presentation. And this is statutorily not only targeted
at you, the Redevelopment Commission, but to the governance bodies of the other
taxing units that overlap the TIF. And so they are invited and encouraged to attend. And actually,
I see Dr. Winston from MCCSE on Zoom. So I only have them in PDF form. So it's not quite as slick as
Justin's original slide presentation. But it's fine. I'll go ahead and control that and take it away, Justin.
Perfect. Justin Chang with 3D Financial Group. It's great to see everyone again. I believe I did this
presentation for everyone last year as well. But just as a quick recap, like Jeff mentioned, the reporting
really is meant for the public. So some of this information you may already know, but for the sake of
the reporting, I have to include them. I'll try to make this meeting as useful to you as possible while
also meeting the statutory requirements. So the second slide here is just
a checklist of all the requirements that we did this year, just as a reminder, there are six total,
and there's only two left. You'll see at the bottom, it's the prior to December 1st TIF spending plan,
which we will do after this, and we are currently doing the December 31st end-of-year TIF impact
presentation. So one of the information that we're required to provide is basic information on the TIF
allocation area.
Bloomington RDC has two main TIF allocation areas. First is the Bloomington Consolidated Allocation
Area, which consists of, I believe, 26 different TIFs. And then North Kinser Pike. Keep in mind, this
does not include any of the new ones that we created this year, so Shasta Metal is not on here this
year. Neither is Hopewell, but they will be in 2027 when we do this. For the expiration years, 2029,
that is the earliest expiration that we know within Consolidated Allocation Area, but that
we do have most of the areas in that Bloomington consolidated does go out to 20 40 North Kinser Pike.
Unfortunately, it's gone after this year and we will not be collecting increment on that tip starting
in 27 incremental AV. We saw about 1.29 this year. We are looking at closer to 1.3 to 1.4. As you may
know, we just completed the residential removal, so that's going to change.
what we're seeing a little bit for page 27, we will let you all know once we have those final numbers,
which we just received the parcels for last Friday. Are you indicating up or down? Up. Thank you. But
don't quote me, but up. No quote, just trying to get a gauge. But probably up, most likely up, yes.
Next tab, this is the financial positions tab. So if we just look big picture wise,
for the Bloomington consolidated allocation area, we're projecting about $24 million in revenues and
22.2 in expenditures. So we're projecting about $1.6 million increase in cash balance. Keep in mind,
these are projections. So current year expenses here today might not reflect this number, and a good
example is North Kinser Pike.
I believe there hasn't been any expenditures out of that TIF allocation area. We just have that in there
because we were projecting a cash spend down due to that TIF expiring. Can you remind me what happens
with any end of year balance that's not spent down from the expiring North Kinser Pike allocation area?
So nothing really happens. And one of the reasons is that we don't actually know yet because North Kinser
Pike is probably one of the
earliest to expire in the state. So we don't have a lot of precedence for that yet. As of now, we've
not seen anything from the DLGF or SBOA telling us, hey, let your clients know to spend these dollars
now. We haven't seen anything like that yet. But we do encourage it to not hold dollars for too long.
We need to make sure we have a project in place prior to the expiration of the TIF in order to utilize
it without having to be a test case for the state.
probably a better question for legal, but we don't see anything that says we need projects in place
before TIFA expiration. We do have... It's nice to just cease bringing in funds, but there may be a
way to use the funds after the actual expiration. I'm just understanding expiration means that the funds
are no longer coming in. Correct. Well, nothing has to
indicated that we need to spend the funds by December 31st, 2026. We just won't be receiving any more
TIF revenues. But the ideal situation would at least have a project identified prior to it. We would
highly encourage that, yeah. We would encourage that. Occurring long-term future plans for the REC,
just some of the projects that we have going on is the Hopewell TIF, which we just created.
The summer project, we created a Shasta Meadows. I know there's future plans for that as well. And we
had the potential hotel project and I know a few public safety projects as well that are under discussion.
So these are just future plans that the RDC has. Nothing set in stone yet. This tab sort of sets up
the actual impact analysis that is coming up.
Many of you have already been on the RDC for a while, so I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time
on this. Essentially, this is just illustrating how a TIFF works, which is you have the base assessed
values, which is the AVs of the parcels prior to creating a TIFF. Once you create a TIFF, any incremental
AV goes towards the RDC, goes towards the TIFF allocation areas. And once that TIFF expires in 2025,
all that growth
due to the TIF goes back to the base. And this is, again, this is one of the slides that's more meant
for the public, because you all have seen this quite a few times. So another setup slide for the next
analysis, which is essentially our impact essentially answers the question, what would happen if this
TIF, all the assessed values in the TIF would have happened if we didn't provide all the incentives?
So if we think of,
Meridian was a good example where we had to provide an economic development agreement. And it's essentially
asking if all the assessed value came into the Meridian, from the Meridian TIF came into the base assessed
values anyways, what would happen to property tax collection. So this is a very hypothetical scenario
that wouldn't actually happen because, again, Meridian TIF, that TIF would not,
would not be around if it wasn't because the RDC was able to provide some sort of economic development
agreement. But this is just a setup slide to say this is the preface before we go into the analysis.
The impact chart, essentially what this does is it takes all that assessed value, that $1.289 billion
that we saw on page three, I believe, and we said we threw this entire $1.29 billion into
the base assessed values, what would be the impact to all the underlying units? And you'll see, even
though Monroe County is listed first, that is because we list that based off the Circle Breaker impact,
but you'll see the highest impact is actually to Bloomington City due to that $644,000 rate-driven funds
impact. So what this shows is,
of a total, if we look at that $48,000 plus $1 million in the middle, right under the blue,
of that $1.1 million impact, about $650,000 of that is actually going to the city. So the message that
I try to convey is, for the most part, the city is bearing most of the impact anyways for having this
tip allocation area.
Jeff, can we go to the next page, actually? Just for all of our clarification, what's a rate-driven
impact? Rate-driven impact is, so this could take a while. No, it won't. But the way Indiana taxes work
is that we're a levy-based state. So essentially what that means is we can't change our property tax
rates. So when you throw a bunch of assessed value into the property tax base, it just drops the tax rate.
So our levy stays the same. Rate-driven funds acts the opposite way. There's only two rate-driven funds
from here. It's Monroe County has a CCD fund, which is a capital development fund, and Bloomington City
also has a cumulative capital development fund. Those rates stay the same. So when you throw an assessed
value into the base, those rates can actually capture on the entire increase in assessed value.
And for Bloomington, which has a very, very low circuit breaker, their rage driven funds impact is actually
the highest, which is very rare because most of our clients have higher circuit breaker. Bloomington
is fortunate in that instance where circuit breaker is low, tax rates are low. So the entire impact
really goes straight to their rage driven funds instead of circuit breaker. This page summarizes all
those numbers.
from that previous page, essentially what we created is called the TIF margin. So 0.95 TIF margin is
probably the highest of all my clients at least. Essentially what that means for every dollar that the
TIF brings in, 95 cents of that is because we utilize the TIF allocation area. So if we look at that
in green under that, that 23.7, that's the total TIF revenues that the RDC brought in. But under that
in yellow, 22.6 is because we utilize the TIF.
If we did not utilize the TIF and the AVs still came into all the base units, all the base units added
together would have only received $1.1 million. So for utilizing the TIF, we generated an extra $22.6
million annually for the community. So quick question in regards to that. If that was the case, you're
saying that $21 million would reduce taxpayers' bills?
21 million would reduce. 22 million, 661 minus the 1.2. Just curious. For this instance, let me think,
if we're looking at. If we didn't have TIF. Portions of it, yes, but not the entire thing. Again, rate-driven
funds is a big part of it. Rate-driven expenses. And one way that I think about it is,
you saw a large drop, a lot of the units will start to find ways to increase that property tax level
too. So if in a vacuum, to answer your question, yes. But it doesn't work that way in reality, yes.
OK. Thank you. But that concludes my presentation. Happy to answer any other questions. I feel like
this is an extremely important slide because this question comes up all the time. We see what we're
losing from it.
But what are we actually getting? And the answer is we're losing a million dollars, but we're getting
$22.6 million. Correct. And that's every single year that the TIF is active. And that money collectively
can do our redevelopment projects. It helps increase the quality of the community, the infrastructure,
in order to make the community a better place. That's the basis of it. Is that correct? OK.
So if we're looking over a life of 25 years, that's over $400 million. And right now, given the existing
TIF we have, excluding the two that we've just done, what's our time frame on our TIFs, on our consolidated
TIF? Because consolidated TIF has a bunch in between there. We have some starting to expire in 2029,
but we really won't. I would say 80% of it doesn't expire till 2040. So we still have, what's that,
13, 14 years around there?
So as we look at projects without redoing a TIF, we need to be cognizant of the fact that we've got
a 13-year time frame for our financial. Yes. And your bond modeling takes that into account. Yes. So
one of the things that we've actually discussed with Jeff and Anna was we have certain bond projects
like the Hopewell Bonds, Summit Bonds, Public Safety. When we started looking at these back in 23, 24,
we could bond for a lot more with a lower impact, but because the TIF life is the same, we're essentially
thinking about it as if you're taking out a mortgage, $200,000 mortgage over 30 years, the monthly payment
is different from $200,000 over 10 years. So as we drag along some of these projects, our flexibility
is reduced because our TIF life can't expand over what they already are.
There's been talk about the possibility of, let's say, establishing a downtown TIF that I believe would
be taking that out of what is currently a consolidated TIF. What does that do for the TIF timeline,
if that were to occur? So the new downtown TIF would have its own timeline. It will not affect the current
TIF's timeline. Now, if we are taking parcels out of the current TIF into the new TIF allocation area,
then that parcel after it's been moved gets 25 years with that new TIF allocation area. But it loses
any incremental AV it previously had. So we want to be selective when we do that. We don't want to remove
something that's currently making, you know, $200,000 a year because we've just taken that away. Are
you able to pick those particular parcels if it's within a geographic area? As long as they meet the
continuity test, then yes, we can certainly do that.
We have done that in the past. Thank you so much for your presentation. Do we go to the spending plan
next? No, it's a little bit later. Okay, because I have one question in regards to that. Thank you.
Anything else for me? One quick question in regards to dealing with our trades district and the amount
that we received in that has been within the 25-19.
Is that whole fund amount still available to be utilized? Well, it's not segregated. I mean, it's just,
yeah, it's not segregated, particularly. But I mean, you did receive it. OK. So it's all part of the
$33 million that's in the bank, as far as what? Yes. OK. Thank you. OK. Well, next item on our agenda
is a business development update.
Just a small business development update to let you know the OT 987 sculpture in the Trace District,
the lights are back on for those of you who have been curious about that. So it's been quite a bit of
investigative work on the part of our arts team, along with some technical support. So that's it. And
I second John's, or Commissioner, oh my god. Just John. Okay, I second John's.
kudos to the CDFI event at the trades district and then we also had a really wonderful three-day AMP
Bloomington event working to connect people doing all things tech and startup bringing kind of students
and community together and the creative economy as well so that event roved from the mill to the Buzzkirk
Chumley and then on campus so it was really really awesome and I hope some of you were able to see a
little bit of that.
Great. Thanks. Thank you. And I don't see Hopewell on our agenda, but I saw Mr. Knuckey online. I just
want to make sure that I'm not missing anything. No Hopewell updates this evening. He's here for another
agenda. OK. Thank you. Can we ask a question about Hopewell? Sure. OK. How long in the time frame to
try to get that moved forward?
and CCRs? Well, we did give a community update last week for the Hopewell project. Hopewell South was
really in the spotlight. We continue to work with civil engineering and so we've made a submittal to
CBU and planning to make sure. We're trying to work towards our secondary plan. And so we're continuing
to work on that right now.
There are a lot of millions of details that have to get worked out. So we're moving as quickly as we
possibly can. Do we think sometime an application before the end of the year will be first in line?
We are trying to make an application before the end of the year, yes. Absolutely. So right now we're
doing a lot of pre-review to make sure that we don't have a lengthy process when it comes to the actual
application.
go secondary plat and then we'll be able to start correct. So right now we're working on getting covenants
and restrictions put together before that plot is recorded. So a lot of little legal things that need
to be done. And in fact, we have an update as far as that's concerned, that we'll talk about in just
a bit. So unless you would you like to talk about it now? The outside council? Oh, yeah, I guess I could
have mentioned this during the
Legal report the. Corporation Council Marjorie said in talking with other department heads and determined
that there was a need for outside counsel to help with the covenants and restrictions and some of the
HOA documentation just due to the bandwidth of. What we have in the office.
And so as Corporation Council, she is the one who is able to enter into engagement letters to do that.
And so she has... She's online. I don't know if she wants to chime in. But the current letter is a...
engagement is a not to exceed of $25,000. And so that would be an administrative type of cost to the
RDC. But the bandwidth again of the legal departments to do that on top of everything else was just
too much. So she engaged outside counsel to assist.
I think it's designed to really expedite things. I mean, we also, if we're talking about condos for
the two multifamily structures, there needs to be a horizontal property regime. You know, there's a
lot of little minute details that we need to try and button up so that we don't get to the end, the
finish line and go, oops. So also purchase agreements to make sure that all of our language is in place,
rights of first, or rights of, I can't even talk.
tonight, rights of first refusal that should be part of those agreements. So just lots of little things
like that, but also the technical review of the civil engineers and planning, CBU, everyone. So we're
working as swiftly as possible, but a lot of details. And it did take quite some time to implement all
of the reasonable conditions that were added to the project from council.
So dealing with that word, I just heard from Dana in regards to it. Having outside counsel should expedite
the CCNRs and the necessary legal documents so we can get filed. Correct. Because you don't want to
do the secondary plat until you have the covenants and restrictions in place. Correct. Yeah. So I think
we're anticipating and hoping that we can go out for bid for infrastructure in February. So that is
the target date right now.
Hopefully, someone can be building yet this spring, summer. Yeah, because that's the goal we're looking
for come spring, that we start actually breaking down and providing housing. Right. So everyone thinks
it's taking a lot of time, but believe me, everyone is working really hard. Big shout out to Kendall
Kanoki in engineering and Anna Dragovich, who have all helped keep this moving as quickly as possible.
Legal has been working tirelessly. It's just a big project.
A lot of details, a lot of reasonable conditions to deal with. And with this, on the legal end of it,
do we have to go through a contract or are we already be able to engage quickly so we've got them on
board? They're already engaged. They're already engaged. All right, thank you. Okay, thank you for your
questions. We will now move on to other items of business starting with
We have two clean registers from October 23rd and November 6th, 2026. Well, November 6th, what's up
with that? We're not even there yet. Is that just? OK, anyway, it's for the time. It's 1024 to 116.
OK, so those are those cleaning periods and the previous one was 1010 to 1023, so it's when they'll
actually hit.
Right. That's the payday. That's the payday. So they're processed two weeks in advance for a payment.
So it's not often that the dates come up ahead of the actual meeting date. So I just wanted to make
sure that we were on the same page. It is surprising. We're not actually looking into the future. Exactly.
OK. So I'm just going to propose to RDC members that we consider either questions or motions on both
of these claims together unless you request to separate them. So any questions or comments on either
of these claims? Question.
Go ahead, John. You want to respond to that? Sure. John had emailed me a question regarding the crossroads
engineering claims that went through. There's six of them currently on page 506 of the claim period
1024 to 116.
All of those claims were related to the beeline extension project that is going on. You guys approved
the resolution 25139 and 2625 for those. So that is just part of that project. And that's our local
match project that we had to do. Yeah. Next question? OK. The next question is a quamant, I guess.
Yes, a question and a comment. Okay, it's page one. Yeah, of course. You know, the account 53 990. Sorry,
it's claim October. October's claim. It's 1010 to 1023. Yeah, 1010 to 1023. Okay, 1010 to 1023. Yes,
sir. Account 53 990. It's line 9216. It's Williams Creek management for our evergreen project. So
The question I have is, since we've engaged legal to help with HOPE, well, can we engage someone to
help that one? Potentially, you know, we really don't know what to do with that situation. We met with
the homeowners several times according to the original agreement. The homeowners association was supposed
to take over that project and they do not feel like they are in a situation where they can financially
support it.
A lot of the homes have in the affordability periods have ended and there are new owners that knew nothing
of this situation. So, and in fact, I do believe that this Williams Creek agreement is expiring at the
end of the year. So we really do need to figure out what's next from my personal opinion to get an HOA
set up with no money in the bank.
is a hefty lift. And I think that that's one of the barriers. So if we were to consider transferring
this, it may be appropriate for you to entice with some seed money for that HOA to get it off the ground.
Otherwise, I just, I don't think that there's a lot of motivation. The city is still in ownership of
that retention pond, which is really that rain garden. And so we have to maintain it for CVU stormwater
purposes at this point.
But I think a transition plan where we potentially see that HOA might entice them to move. But we have
been unsuccessful in all of our meetings to date. That's why I bring this up, because this project has
been on for what, 15 years? Prior to this administration? I've only been here for a few, yes.
asked in regards to the comment or the question is what is the legal hurdles as we're looking to establish
HOAs for Hopewell that we could also actually utilize this so that 20 years from now we're still not
in that circumstance. And the homeowners have the control of their neighborhood, which was always the intent.
Well, and I think it's difficult. I don't want to speak for legal, but just from experience, you know,
setting up a new HOA is one thing, but once it's an established neighborhood, really that HOA,
those bylaws, everything associated needs to be decided by the homeowners, not by the city that only
owns one lot in the area. So we could, I don't know that hiring
outside council or structuring it for them is the right thing to do, but potentially seeing them with
the money to go make those decisions, to create those documents, that would be my personal opinion of
what the right thing to do. Sure. The problem that you always see in a homeowners association is getting
people to agree. And we are part of the homeowners association at the present moment. Is that correct?
Well, we have ownership. Yeah. So how to structure that? And I'll defer that to legal.
look at, because if we're establishing one for Hopewell, can we work on this one also in the same type
like? Oh, it's a different, way different scenario. Yes, different scenario and I'm not of the opinion
that you should, it would be similar. Okay. I think that they need to make those decisions as a neighborhood.
So they need to, we need to go to them or they need to come to us to ask for seed money to try to establish
it, because it won't go away
Well, we're at a crossroads when it comes to December. Like the end of December, their contract expires.
Williams Creek does for this management. So we need to figure out whether we offer the seed money to
get them going and give them an off-ramp, a timeline by which they need to execute in order to obtain
that money. And that's my suggestion. But of course, this is up to you guys. I'm not a voting member.
I like your plan. Just how do we execute?
you know, limited resources. We'll get it done. Okay, thank you. And then other questions. It would
be page four of page four of the packet. Number 29. And this is just a matter of miscellaneous that
plays all the way through through our utility bills. Again, just a comment based on utility bills and
maintenance for properties that we have.
that are either underutilized or not really anyone occupying at the present moment. It's about $18,000
when we total everything from janitorial to Duke in 2518. I know there's nothing we can do about it
at the present moment. We have to keep the facilities on. A lot of that is Hope Wall lighting. Those
are exterior lights that need to happen. Yeah, the particular ones I was more
question was, of course, our showers west in regards to our 714 utility bills and our college square.
Those would be the three in that particular room. I just want to make note that, you know, we're spending
a significant amount of money in underutilized facilities. And that takes care of my questions. That
was more of a
The question is, how do we not have? We're working on it. OK, any other questions on the claim registers
for both October 23rd and November 6th before we get a motion? One question on the November one on page
639 of the packet.
Fund 4445, line 512. The seventh walnut garage taxes, which I know we've reviewed this before contractually,
were obligated to pay the property taxes for the seventh and walnut garage. And I guess this would be
a question for Jeff. When is that paid off?
so we can... When is the debt paid off? Yeah, when is the debt paid off? At that point, then the parking
garage, whatever portions is taxable. The walnut or the mercury? Walnut, yeah. This one is the seventh
and walnut at five. The walnut is February of 31. 31, so we're getting closer. Getting closer. Yeah,
because at that point, then those tax dollars will become part of the revenue that will come back into the city.
I mean, it'll be interesting to see what happens. The documents are really complicated, and I have not
yet. I mean, we're definitely going to need legal assistance to understand exactly what the impact is
once we pay off those leases. OK. Thank you. But it is definitely on my radar. OK. Appreciate that.
Thank you. OK. If there are no other questions, I will ask for a motion for both of these claims, please.
I'll move approval of claims for October 23rd and November 6th. Second. Move a first and a second. All
in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Passes unanimously. Thank you. Next item in the agenda, we also
have two payroll registers, one from October 16th, the other from October 30th. I will also invite you
to ask questions about both and entertain a motion for both at the same time. I'll make a motion to
approve of payroll records.
registers as presented. Second. First and a second all in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed passes unanimously.
Now we have the minutes from three different meetings two executive sessions one from October 5th the
other from October 19th and then the regular meeting minutes from October 19th. I will also invite any
questions about these collectively as well as a motion that would cover all three.
I'll move approval of minutes for October 5th, October 19th in both cases. Second. We've got a first
and a second. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Passes unanimously. Thank you. Okay, we are going
to a presentation on proposed product delivery system for 714 South Roger Street. Who would like to
present that?
and then there may be others jumping in. To start, I just wanted to kind of go back to the initial thought
of how the readaptive use of 714 building would work for the Bloomington Police Department headquarters.
And we originally started looking at the process
which would include an owner's representative who would be looking out for the RDC cities and Bloomington
police departments best interest in this. And then a CMC, which is a construction manager as constructor.
There are benefits to a CMC that such as at some point during the process they would
could end up with a guaranteed maximum price. And then if there's overruns or issues with subcontractors,
things like that, the construction manager would be the one that would have to deal with all that. However,
during the process of looking for an owner's representative, we now got some proposals of people familiar with
Bloomington and the project, yet none of the proposals were well-suited for what the RDC's needs were
in the project. So during discussions about that, it was brought up by a department head, a contact
that they had, or company they had heard about, Garmong. And so,
When that was mentioned, I perked up my ears because I had a contact at Garmong that I had previously
worked with and was familiar with. His name's Dan Zerner. And so I contacted Dan and asked him if they
would be interested in being owner's representative and give us a proposal on that.
And he asked to meet. And so Anna Killian Hanson and I met with him outside the 714 Roger Street building.
And prior to that, I had given him the reports that we had to date on the building. And during
our discussions, he brought up
idea of, instead of using an owner's representative and a CMC, of using a CMA instead, which a CMA is
a construction manager as an agent. So they act as an owner's representative. They aren't the constructor,
so they aren't contracting with
any of the subs they are so there's no financial benefit to them in any of those financial or contractual
obligations their whole financial interest would be for the city and so that therefore that would eliminate
the need of an owner's representative there are
pros and cons, which I'll talk about in a minute, but after he spoke with Anna and I, we felt that this
sounded like a good approach, and so he met with a larger city team to explain the process, and the
larger city team also felt that this
looked like a way to go, but felt that we needed to reach out to some other people as well. Now, CMC,
there's a statute that requires you to go through a request for proposal process. For an owner's
representative, that's not required. It's services.
and for a CMA that's not required its services. Yet, for due diligence purposes, the team felt that
it was important to reach out to others that are known CMA vendors and to get proposals from them as well.
looking at those proposals compared to the information that Garmong had presented in the meeting with
us and he had actually presented a proposed agreement. The Garmong group was less, their pricing was
less. They were at
2% for the construction management, 2% of construction costs. We received two proposals from the several,
I think there was six or seven that was requested from maybe. And one of the others was 2.25%. And the
other had a very interesting way that they laid everything out. And when you kind of added it together,
it looked like it was more like 2.9%.
The two and a quarter percent company also required or said there would be additional costs for any
pre-construction work. So any of the design work that they would do with the architects and, you know,
making sure that they had value engineering through the process, all of that would be an additional
cost that they did not give a price for.
Garmong has offered to do those services for not to exceed fee of $20,000. So anyway, as a short discussion
of the difference between the two, again, the major benefit to the city of the CMA
is that the CMA is again looking out for the best interest of the city. They have no benefit, financial
interest at all in the contracts. So their interest is solely in getting the best product at the best
price and looking out for the city. And the owner has
using this CMA approach, you do not get the guaranteed maximum price, but you have to understand how
the guaranteed maximum price is set, and that isn't set until bidding is complete, and then a contingency
is added to that. Well, once the bidding is completed,
complete and they had a contingency, that contingency would actually be the city's contingency and not
theirs with the CMA. So the city would be controlling that contingency. So there's a benefit there.
Another benefit is that the CMA would divide out the bidding into prime contracts. So instead of having
one general contractor, there would be
four or five, three, four, five prime contractors that where you would divide out the scope of work
to fit their trades. And therefore you can reduce the number of markups from subs by doing that as well.
So their cost savings there. So Dan had talked to us and knowing that the budget
this project is so tight that was the first thing he said when we met is that it's going to be very
difficult to do this project with this budget and so you need to find a way to save as much as you can
and going the CMA route is a route that could save you money that could be put into the project instead of
fees and other costs. So let me see what I'm missing here. The other benefit to the city is that the
city, you know, the CMC, when they, yes, they would have the contracts
And they would be responsible for the subcontractors. If there's failures to do the work and inefficiencies,
they would be responsible for that. Yet, they'd have to deal with that. But that doesn't mean there
wouldn't be those issues. You might have those same issues even if the city held the contracts.
But if the city held the contracts, the city wouldn't be in control of dealing with that directly. And
you still have the construction manager that's looking out after that day after day after day, making
sure to catch those things as they were to happen to try to head them off at the pass, so to speak.
pros and cons of each one. It did appear, at least to me, that the CMA would give more money to the
project and more flexibility as well. Because the CMA, we could, once you have your project and you're
guaranteed a master in the process, you have your project. With the CMA,
If you start down the road and find out that there's an issue and you need to pivot, you can pivot because
you've got that flexibility. You don't have a contract for the entire thing. So there's some flexibility
there. I did invite Dan Zerner to join us. He understands that you guys are just hearing about this
for the first time, so you've
You're not going to make any decisions tonight on whether you want to do a CMC or CMA or whatever, but
he can help explain the differences between the two, how a CMA works best for this project. He can tell
you a little bit about his company. If you decided to do a CMA route, we wouldn't recommend
Garmong is to go with, again, we did due diligence in looking for the owner's rep, which was not suitable.
We did our due diligence with looking for the CMA. Again, even though we heard from Dan first, we did
go and seek other proposals. And Garmong led by not only pricing, but experience.
And so we wouldn't recommend him if you chose to go that route. But again, he understands he's not here
to, that you're not gonna vote on a contract for it tonight, that you're not even possibly choosing
a direction to go. But we're trying to help you with understanding the process.
And another thing I meant to mention with the CMA is since the contracts are with the city, it's a much
more transparent approach. With the CMC, they hold the contracts. You don't necessarily see them. It's
not a public bidding process. You don't know what you're getting for what. So there's some more transparency
that you get when the city is doing the
the bidding. So I think that was the last point I want to try to get in there. But anyway, this is Dan
Zerner from Garmong. And I'd, again, like for him to start with adding anything to the difference between
CMA and CMC and why CMA would work best for this particular project. A quick question. When you're referring
to CMA and CMC,
CMC or construction management as constructor. That's the CNT2 thing. And then we're also looking at
it from an owner's rep standpoint that we've went out to previously. If we're talking about two, should
we talk about the third also so we get a good understanding? With an owner's rep, you still need the
construction manager as constructor. We would just have an owner's rep
work with the construction manager to represent our interest, to make sure our interest was represented
all the way through. So owner's rep is not a third mechanism. It would be used with the CMC. So the
CMA is a way to combine the construction management part with the owner's representative part. So during
the initial
the initial pre-construction, which would be from, depending on how early the CMA was brought on, from
helping select the architect engineers to, through the bidding process, those services would be considered
owner's representative type services. And then the construction manager services would kick in, but
it would still be as an agent for the city
and not as a constructor, but they would do all the things that the construction manager as construction
would do. And then the architectural and the engineer from their construction management. You wouldn't
include that. That would be part of the CMA. You will have an architect and an engineer. Right. We'll
have an architect and engineer, but any construction management services would then be transferred from
architect and engineer into a construction management agent.
Okay, you wouldn't have extended services as you and I know of an architect's contract. Okay. Good question.
Thank you. So I guess if you're looking at me, it's my time. First of all, I want to thank Dana and
Anna and Anna for all the conversations we've had about this project to this point. Second, as I told
the other group, my kids tell me that I'm not who are now in their 40s.
Tell me that I'm not sucking up, but I do want you to know that I reviewed all your bios today. And
how humbled I am to be a part of this group and be here this evening and thank you for this opportunity.
Third, I want to assure you that there is no pressure on my part here. You should know that I was actually
the liaison to the City of Lawrence Redevelopment Commissioner for Mary Collier for four years. So I
understand exactly what you're going through and the role you have to play.
And I'm here primarily to provide clarity and to answer your questions. And if the opportunity comes,
I would be glad to serve you. I would be the guy serving you as your lead in this project. It wouldn't
be somebody any less senior. I am the most senior person at Garmont. I've been there 26 years. I probably
run close to a billion dollars in projects. Just to give you some idea, something very complex.
This is an extremely complex project as we're looking at it today. When you look at the Hopewell component
with all the utilities and stormwater and coordination that goes on there, the smallness of the site,
the complexities that were going to occur, I might kind of equate it with a project you probably know
about. But every time you go through Martinsville, if you make a left and go up like you used to and
you pass the south central RMC building, that was my project.
That was a seven-year development project to put Watt Auto Band on 15 acres in a seven-acre spot. It
had the primary Duke service line, the city split the middle of that project. It had the main sewer
line for the entire city of Martinsville come right down through the center of that project. We had
massive amounts of work to do to prepare that project and keep them in full operation while we were
there. So I am familiar with very difficult projects. I don't say that to be arrogant, but that's just
what I do.
I want to talk a little bit about the delivery systems in a different context and share with you a little
bit about Garmong and the process. When I came to Garmong in 2000, we were a $12 million company. This
year we'll do $500 million. We have offices now in Fort Wayne, Indianapolis, Terre Haute, Evansville,
and Savannah, Georgia. The Savannah, Georgia offices will do nothing but build prisons. That's its whole
focus, is to build prisons.
Our projects range in size right now, a project of $1.2 billion. We're finishing up for the state of
Indiana at a new prison that's a square mile under roof up in Westfield to $2 and $3 million. I would
say our sweet spot right now is somewhere in the $75 million project range. It's probably where we spend
a lot of time, but we do a lot of projects between $25 and $75 million. Delivery system-wise, it's really
interesting.
We do a lot of CMC work. It might surprise you to know that when the state, that's a relatively new
statute for yous that don't know it. It was about five years ago that the state of Indiana passed the
CMC legislation for public works. Prior to that, you could not do CMC in Indiana. So it's relatively
new. When that happened, Purdue University actually hired us to write their operations manager on CMC
to build their $200 million honors dorm.
So we have a tremendous amount of CMC experience. And then most of you that have been around know that
the latest buzzword is BOT. That's the new buzzword. And so we right now probably have, I'm just speculating
off the top of my head, we probably have 200 million in CMC work, 200 million in BOT work, and I have
about 150 million in CMA work. For the BOT, if you could explain that, please. Sure, I'd love to. That's
a build, operate, transfer. Thank you.
It originally started out with jails and hospitals and all where you would build it. You'd get it up
to fully operational and then you'd transfer the ownership over and you'd carry all the carrying costs
for the project as you went through the build operating procedure. What it's really become is a way
to get around the old bidding statutes because you can hire anybody you want to do the project. That's
really what BOT does for you. It allows you to hire anybody you want as a team to do your project.
And but most of the time now because they found out they had to pay the carrying costs one way or the
other either at the end or during the beginning. I would say a lot of that's transferring back to CMC
now in that regard. So I can talk to you equally about delivery systems and Garmont would be pleased
to build your project any way you want as would numerous other people. So I'm not prejudiced. I'd like
to say I'm not prejudiced to delivery systems. We'll deliver this project any way you'd like to have
it delivered.
If you go to CMC, then you have to turn around and go back out for proposals. And you get proposals
from teams to come back in, and you evaluate those proposals. As Dan already mentioned, CMA is considered
a professional service, because just like any engineering firm, we are responsible to you and you only.
We are a single service provider with the full responsibility of serving you. Some people like to say,
well, you don't have any risk of CMA.
because you don't have any money at stake. Well, I like to say I have the biggest risk, because my reputation
is 100% at stake with CMA. If I don't deliver, and you tell every other city in town that I didn't,
or in the county state I don't deliver, that's probably the biggest risk a guy could have in his career.
In my knowledge, in the 26 years I've been here, has every project gone perfect? No, but anybody that
tells you there will be such a thing as a perfect project, specifically this project, there's going
to be issues with this project.
I think to have a guy that's in your corner that has the reputation I do to fight for you like I fight
for you, and the team I will have behind me, which is second to none in Indiana, our typical schematic
phase estimate, for example, which is only at about 15, 20% design, is usually within 3% of the final
project cost. So one of the things that I think we can do for you is help you get to an early budget
and understand where we really are.
There's a lot of variables working in this community. This is a great community, and it's because you
have so many variables. But I don't have anywhere else, for example, that I'm gonna have to pay a 1%
deduct to an art council. That's probably a good thing, but it's coming off the top, right? So when
we look at 30 million, we gotta figure out right away, 1% is coming right off that project. And then
we have other factors we have to work through.
I think there are a lot of ideas we can bring to the table. One of the things that I've already suggested,
and I want to thank Anna Dragovich for her work on the RFPs. She's collaborated with me. We
made modifications together with the RFP to be sure it was more reflective of what I think some of these
issues are. I'm not worried about a contract, but I've already agreed to sit with Anna and her team
on the interviews to be sure that we ask the architects the right questions to drill down and get to
you what you need to do to have the best architect and engineer, because that's going to influence this
project dramatically. How do we tie this in? Another thing that's a concern to me that I'll be looking
for is we get closer way down the line towards bidding packages. But how do we structure bidding packages
to give Bloomington, Monroe County contractors the best opportunity to compete in a world that if the
playing field's level
Can they compete better than bring somebody outside to do the work? I think it's important to try to
make this an economic development project if we can and keep as much of that work in town. So anyway,
CMA, in my view, allows me to do a lot of things for you. It allows me to start with the architect on
day one and be sure that we're designing the most efficient way to build whatever we need to build.
Now, it won't necessarily be true on this as an example, but it's the example that's on top of my head.
When you're in engineering architect school, a lot of times you're taught design. For example, a steel
engineer will often design a steel by the pound. And so they try to design as light as they can to save
money on steel. Or we might look at that and say, you know, if you make that steel two gauges heavier,
we need two less bolts in every connection. Two less bolts may save us X amount of labor. Those are
the kind of things that we're going to be looking at on your behalf to see how we can do that. Another
thing I think is going to be
problematic here is the coordinating and scheduling with your adjoining housing project and how the
stormwater and utilities all tie in. How do we keep the schedule going? How do we keep the streets clean
and not impact? It'd be our job to coordinate all that safety and security that's going to have to go
along with that particular section of town as part of the construction project. And the real difference
is I'm not going to be looking at as a CMC, I'm looking at how do I keep my profit up?
while I'm doing all those things for you, as a CMA, that's not a concern to me. My concern is 100% your
interest, and it's our job to keep everybody in line to those interests. Another thing I think is really
important, because you all haven't seen my proposed contract to the city that Dana and I have worked
out, my proposed contract says you can cancel my contract at any point in time with no penalty. No cause,
no penalty, no reason. You can cancel it. If at any point in time you don't think I'm doing a good job,
I think you need to be able to get rid of me.
But also what that does, I think, let's say we went four months down the road or five months down the
road, and we all decided after all the work we're doing, this project just isn't going to fly. For a
whole bunch of reasons, this old building, we just can't get it to where we want economically. We could
kill my contract and turn around and build a new building, either under CMA or CMC, and start all over
with it, with hardly any financial consequence to you other than what we spent in preliminary design.
So I think it offers you a tremendous amount of flexibility as CMA. I have a tendency to talk way too
much. And when I do, I get in trouble. I know that you've had a lot of real estate experience, John.
I've known Randy for a long time. Our companies have worked together. But I would rather at this point
stop and just breathe for a minute and take your questions, because I'm sure you got a bunch of them.
to ask a question about how your fee structure works. Sure. You have a flat fee structure, at least
to my understanding from what Mr. Kerr said, that would be for owner's representative services. And
then you're also describing where there'll be additional fees for the actual construction management
component. May I help you with that? Yes, please. So there's two technical terms that we live with.
are pre-construction and construction. So we have offered you a pre-construction phase fee, which is
way below market rate. And if I were you, I'd be suspicious of that. That's why I'm asking you the question.
Why would he possibly do that? Well, one is I think we need to earn your respect and earn your way to
the table and take the risk away from you in that pre-construction phase. Randy understands that.
For $20,000, it's going to cost us $150,000 to live that pre-construction phase, right? But we're also
going to charge you 2% for construction of a $30 million project. So 2% of $30,600,000 if my math's
right. We're willing to give up $100,000 up front to prove that we're as good as we say we are and help
you get to a project. Because if there is no project to construct, there is no $600,000, correct?
So I'm just being 100% transparent with you, that's the logic that goes into that. But for pre-construction,
what we're committing to is we're gonna sit with that architect, we're gonna work all the budget issues
out, we're gonna work the scope issues out, we're gonna work all the details that go with construction
out, get it to bid, and bid the project for you, all for $20,000. And at the time, and that's a value,
by the time you get those bids, we're gonna know exactly what that project's gonna cost, and this is where
Internally, we have our own debates about CMA and CMC. Because everybody wants a guaranteed maximum
price, and it's sold by a lot of people to municipalities as the greatest thing since sliced bread.
But a guaranteed maximum price isn't established until the bids are actually received. It's like going
to the back of the grocery store and picking up that gallon of milk for four bucks or whatever it is
today. I haven't bought a gallon of milk in a long time.
I used to work in a grocery store business, and I remember it at 49 cents. But you grab that gallon
of milk and you bring it up front, it's still $4 or whatever it was in the back. So when you're establishing
a guaranteed maximum price, they're really not taking the risk that you think they are. Plus, then they
add a contingency on top of that. And that contingency, in all fairness, can be negotiated a million
ways. It can be all the city's money that you control with a line item. It can be their money. It can
be sometimes they have guaranteed
savings, where they split the savings costs. What I'm proposing is that we're going to put together
the budget as CMA. We're going to know exactly what the cost is, and we're going to decide collectively,
as an RDC, as a team, how much contingency within the budget do we have to have to protect our interests
to be sure we've got enough money to finish the job. Normally that's, in this market right now, as of
all those things are, that's normally five or six percent of total contingency.
So a $30 million project, I would want you to have at least 5% put back for contingency items. Now,
there's a lot of details in this that we haven't even begun to think about. One of them is called FF&E.
But as we go through the pre-con, we have to decide for furniture, fixtures, and equipment. Where's
that all going to come from? How much is new? How much is transferred? How do we finance that as part
of the project? And you want that in your budget. You don't want that to come later.
Those are all details that we will be looking at on your behalf to help drive and manage and program.
If you look at the original study of the building, I know just enough to be dangerous, because this
is all I've seen. I have studied this inside and out. I've had a long conversation with both Anna and
Dana. Anna this morning was, Anna Dragovich was gracious enough to give me an hour on the phone. We
talked about the building at length. But I have not even been inside the building yet.
But I have a pretty good idea what I'm going to see. This building is almost identical to a building
I rehabbed in Terre Haute that was a housing project for Westminster Village in Terre Haute. They're
core slab floors, eight foot off the park. We'll probably have to use a VRF or some type of refrigerant
flow system to keep the ceiling heights acceptable. We may even have to cut a few of those ceiling panels
out if we put dispatch in there, those sorts of things. But I think it can be done.
And I understand the value of trying to restore the project. So I'm committed to make this building
work right now until we get to a point where at some point the flag just goes up and says, no, this
doesn't fly. And I'm not afraid to tell you if I get to that point. But I'm not there yet. I think there
is a really, I would call it a 75% chance right now that this is where we want to be. And to that end,
We all agreed when we put the RFP out that we took any reference to a new project out. I wanted all
the focus by the design teams to be on how can we utilize this building? What are the issues? What are
the opportunities? What's the focus? I only wanted to think, for example, that there's an out by going
to a new building. I'll give you an example of that. It's not totally accurate, but one of the things
I just helped out Hendricks County with, which is my biggest client, is they ran into a problem with
an animal shelter.
I'm not gonna go through the full story, but the bottom line is they brought a firm out of Pennsylvania
that specializes in animal facilities to give an air quality study. And that firm was a firm that designed
animal facilities for lilies and phisers and all kinds of laboratory units. And they saw this animal
shelter sitting under Henry's County new $70 million jail. We get to build a new animal shelter. And
they wrote a scathing report.
that made its way to Facebook before the commissioners got it said we believe the air quality might
be making our employees sick. You can imagine what that did when it really wasn't true. And so instead
of 20 million for an animal shelter, we just finished the total rehab of that building for $750,000
and met all the code requirements and standards. I think we can look at this building from that same
perspective. What do we have to do? So one of the things that I'm looking at already is
It appears to me that the people did this study tried to figure out how to use every corner of the building.
I don't think the police department is going to need four floors. I think they may need two floors,
two and a half floors. I don't know that answer yet. But I don't think we build out the entire building
if they don't need the entire building. I think we do the renovations to the exterior. I think we shell
it. We secure it. We make it all right. But then maybe there's an opportunity for the RDC to either
A, lease that space to a compatible private entity that would like to be next to the police department,
or B, use it for some other services that are adjacent. But I think we have to look at every possible
avenue as to how this building is going to be used, what's really required, and what we can afford,
and figure that out. The last thing I will tell you, and then I'll try to answer all your questions.
Hendricks County, in two weeks, we're going to cut a ribbon on a new highway garage that was $32 million
by the architect when I got hired. I got hired because they only had $19 million and $50,000.
We're finishing that project at 18,947,100 under where we were in 1950, which was a long way off of
32 million. And we gave the city or the county everything they wanted on 17 acres. I think
there's opportunity here to do something really great. I don't know in my mind yet whether it's 30 million,
35 million, 28 million, 42 million.
But what we'll be able to do is in very incremental phases consistently, we'll be able to advise you
where we are with that. And have you help us and guide us as to how aggressive we want to be or where
we want to go. That's all I can tell you is we'll be as transparent and treat you just like you're one
of us. That would be my role. That was a long answer to what you asked. I appreciate your answer.
I'm still not clear on how you cover your costs by delivering $150,000 worth of pre-development services
for $20,000. It's going to come to us out of the back end, out of that 2% on the back end of 30 million.
And then the counterpart question is, as you noted, that your terms and conditions would include the
ability for the city, if any reason was needed, to terminate the contract. What are the terms of termination
then? The terms, you would only owe us for whatever we provided to that point.
How many hours per week do you expect based on what you know now, which as you noted is fairly nominal
at this point, but how many hours maybe total would you expect for ownership services? Well, once we
get to construction, that's a 40 hour week job for more than one person. Right, I'm talking pre-construction,
huh? Pre-construction is going to vary. So right now, for example, I have committed to Anna, as long
as you all don't
shut us down for some reason, whether my contract's in place or not. I've committed to spend a day doing
interviews with architectural firms and help be sure we ask the right questions and we get the right
firm pinned down for the city. Once we get the architect in place, the architect will start driving
that with us providing oversight. I would expect that there would be, one, a meeting every two weeks
initially that I would actually be in town for. There will be
phone calls and zoom stuff and all in between that, but the architect will start driving that. Once
we get down to the schematic phase, which schematic phase means we've got a really rough blueprint of
what we want to do. We usually have a floor plan, a site plan, maybe a rendering that puts us where
we want. Garmong then will have a team of about two highly skilled estimators that will take three weeks
going through that to get you
in order of magnitude of what we're talking about to deliver what we're talking about today. And then
we have to either say, all right, we're perfect, or we can add something else, which very rarely happens,
or no, we need to take something out of the budget to get this back to where we are. Can we take some
scope out and yet maintain the integrity of the project where it delivers what you want to deliver?
You've been through that a million times. And so that would be the next phase. Once you go to the schematic
phase, then the architect goes to what we call seedings, which is a construction document.
He starts that phase. We're more involved as we go to CDs because we're looking at all how that's going
to fit together. How's it going to get constructed? How's it going to get built? What kind of safety
requirements are going to have to be provided in the project? What are logistics of getting materials
delivered? What outstreet are we going to have shut down? All that starts to happen in the CD phase.
So we'll have, at that point, a project manager sitting with me, besides me, doing that work. And they'll
be, at that point, probably
8, 10 hours, 15 hours a week. And then we get to what we call DDs, and that's when CDs are done. DDs
are design, I'm sorry, I got it backwards. DDs and then CDs. CDs are construction documents, and that's
when we get all the final plans prepared to go to bid. And what we're really looking at, as your partner
in that, we're looking as a constructor at those set of documents to try to take out every potential
loophole for a contractor to bid that and say it wasn't in the plans. That's where your change orders
come from.
We're doing everything we can to alleviate change order risk by reviewing those just as if we're going
to bid that project. And we'll have more people involved in that time. So I don't know how to answer
exactly how many hours are going to be involved, but it's in the hundreds by the time we get through
pre-con. My question was really about the pre-development because it's the flat rate, right? The other
is actually at least tied to construction costs. I will tell you that that flat rate is a whipping boy.
If I was going to set that flat rate, I told Dana initially it was a lot higher.
But our company looks at this and says, hey, we have tried to work for the city of Bloomington for years.
We work for IU, we work for the community school corporation, we work for everybody else, but we really
haven't done much for Bloomington. We're willing to discount this to have a chance to show Bloomington
how good we really are. That's really your answer. Thank you for your help with that question. Do other
members of the commission have questions you'd like to
Yeah, I'd like to segue on to what you were asking. So take me from the construction docs to where we're
actually starting to bid the job. I know you're not the GC, so who is going to oversee that function?
Of GC? Well, who is going to
We will have we will have a full-time project manager and a full-time job site superintendent staff
on the job all day every day once construction starts All right, but in the prior to that in the bidding
process will have HVAC and plumbers and you know, we put all this goes on We put all that together with
the design firm and Garmon will actually write the bidding documents Darman will actually develop the
entire bidding book bidding documents. We do that all in
So the RDC slash city is not doing that legal work? No, we'll have the entire bidding package put together.
And then the other thing is, of course, we'll review it with your bond council and all the people involved
to be sure that all the documents tie together. Because the bond people want to be sure that the construction
documents and contracts are all set up right. So we review all that.
So the contracts are held by the city. Correct. And who in the city specifically is responsible for
that? It would be the, of course, with the RDC, because RDC is the owner of the property. But as far
as managing the legalities of the contract, it would be the legal department. And then both ANAs would
be heavily involved.
and as a project manager and it co enhances as the executive director. The other thing is we will provide
you, I could have brought you in tonight, I should have, but we will provide you a very comprehensive
monthly report of exactly where we are. It'll have photos, budgets, scopes, schedules, updates, you'll
get that once a month as an RDC and we're glad to provide that in person.
or not, depending on what you want with your meetings. It doesn't take very long, but we will provide
that every month. It's a turn of key, John, as far as. Well, I'm actually more concerned about the volume
of work and the scope of work for the city and the city staff, and whether they're A, qualified,
and B, have the time
That's a great question, but they really shouldn't have much because we will actually prepare the contracts
for their review. We will prepare all the pay apps on your behalf. We'll review all the invoices that
come in from the contracts. We will prepare all the pay apps. We'll consult with the architect, be sure
they're in agreement. Mutually together, we'll sign off on the pay apps. So really all the city has
to do is process a check and keep the electric.
That's all part of our function. When it says construction manager, we are literally responsible for
all those aspects. So really, the only difference between an A and a C in at least this scenario as
you presented is who? There's two differences. The two differences is, one, the contracts are held by
the city instead of the CM. The second difference, as you'll understand, there is not a guaranteed maximum price.
But I would like to also, since I do so much of both, I would like to also say that the guaranteed maximum
price isn't guaranteed if you change the scope. If you change the scope on a CMC and you want an additional
room, different building, price goes up, right? So the guaranteed maximum price thing to me is way oversold.
Should be a project without change orders. You understand that?
So from my perspective, the one thing that I really ask for out of my consideration is not asking you
or baiting you into signing a contract. But if you really decide you want me to help you with these
services, which I'm really looking forward to doing, I'm going to tell you one more thing because you'll
probably hear it anyway. Anna's heard it. Dana's heard it. I shared it with Randy. 1229 is my last official
full-time date going.
But I have agreed, because I love Dana and we work together so much, I've agreed with Grandma that I'm
going to retain two clients, if you so choose. Hendricks County has asked me to stay in place to 2031
because they just gave me $160 million worth of work, continued upon me staying and running it. So I'm
going to stay in that capacity for Hendricks, and I've also agreed to stay in capacity and run your
project through completion, but you would be only
One of two clients I have after the first year. Well, you'll have a ton of time. Yeah, I just I'm type
A and I'm worried anyway about not knowing what I'm going to do after I retire, but I'm 71 years old.
I've enjoyed this. Eat and breathe it. I've got great clients and great great company. I'm really not
anxious to just totally walk out, but I think I gotta start to think in those terms. But but you would
be my sole
one of the two sole focuses if you decide to do this. But you might as well know that up front because
the other thing is I will have a tremendous amount of talent behind me. That's what gives me the comfort
to do this. I'll have our operating, I have two men in their 40s that are both Rose-Hulman engineers
and licensed engineers that will be involved with me in this project. I'll have a full team of people
behind me to help handle this. So I think we can do a good job for you if you decide you want us to do it.
Any other questions from commissioners? Question regards to when we look at our overall cost basis,
we know what our dollar amount is that we have from an affordability standpoint. 30, 35 millions would
have been told. Keep going down. I like your enthusiasm. Yeah, like your enthusiasm. Yeah, yeah. Let's
talk 30 plus, including soft. With that, based upon utilization of CMC or CMA, when those
Dollars come in based on your estimate, but whatever function. Where are you at if it goes too high?
And we either have to cut scope, as you know it, or figure some alternative to drive it down. Alternative,
dollar-wise. And when we look at things, not from a GMP standpoint, but when we do it. Well, let me
give you some examples. Since you asked a question, open the door. I'm already thinking, all right?
Again, I talked about some of the complexities of working in this beautiful city because it is what
it is because of what you do, right? But for example, there's discussion of tier four construction.
If you don't know what tier four is, that's virtually a bomb shelter. I've built several 911 facilities
and EMS facilities. None of them are tier four. I don't know where tier four came from. But to get to
tier four is a pretty significant cost.
I think we could, what I call, harden it to where there's no way anybody could possibly get hurt in
a storm. Structural steel, concrete, all kinds of things. But it may not be a full tier four authorization.
We could probably save considerably money that way. There's also in your statutes sustainability laws.
Does sustainability mean we have to go for full certification and leave? Or can we just put the sustainable
Can we use recycled materials? Can we do a bicycle rack? Can we do other things? But like, for example,
in the study, it mentions a green roof. Does anybody have any idea what a green roof costs? And then
to maintain it. If I have the flexibility and we have the full continuity and we can have the open dialogue,
OK, here's what this costs. Here's what the alternative costs. Those are the kind of discussions, Randy,
that you and I built with our whole career that we have to have to control that cost.
So that's the only answer I have for you right now. I don't know if it's a good one or not. It's a matter
of where we go to from a time frame standpoint. Right. Just say go, no go, and what the overall cost
is accordingly. That's right. Because if cost exceeds that, we've got a significant multiple thousand
square foot building here. And our affordability may go down. Next question, last question I have in
regards to it. When you look at the number of contracts that the city would have to have on this, what's
the total number you identify in regards to it? In my mind, it's five.
Usually it's mechanical, electrical, a general trades package, site package. So five to six max probably.
Now, it might vary. You might say that I'm not totally accurate in that because maybe we want a security
controls company. Maybe we want an IT company to come in. So those little minor, what I call ancillary
contract, but as far as prime major contracts, I'd say five. All at the same time, yeah.
accelerate projects. Yeah, we will have a very accurate bidding process that will get us a project number
that we all can live with. And it's just a matter of what we can afford. That's right. OK.
Anything else? Any other questions from commissioners? Not like competing firms.
distinguish themselves. What would they come in here and say to us? For this role? I'd say they'd probably
say much of the same thing. That's a hard question, because anything I sound is arrogant or self-serving.
But I don't think there's very many people that do exactly what I do. And that's why you don't see too
much CMA. You see very little of it.
It's almost non-existent. Almost non-existent. For obvious reasons, the GMP and the state law has changed.
But it's all about trust and transparency. And I will share this with you because I don't know that
it's ever been done, but I consider this a real tribute. When we started the highway garage project
a year and a half ago at Hendricks County, the commissioners passed a resolution that gave
me an authorization to spend $50,000 on their behalf for any change order without coming back to them.
Now why would they do that?
They only meet every two weeks. If I have to shut a project down for two weeks to get a change order
authorized, what's that cost? And they trusted me enough to give me that resolution as long as, and
I asked them for this, I put a check and balance in that either the county engineer or the county facilities
manager had to sign with them. I'm not gonna sign that on my own and put myself out there, right? But
it's another example of how we look at how do we control the project. So I think most companies will,
talk about themselves as CMs to answer your question because they're constructors, right? But I don't
think they understand what it takes to sit at the table and make these hard decisions with you and have
these discussions and be so aware of everything that's going on in the project. And again, there's going
to be mistakes. But what I say about contractors, and I don't know if I'm really answering the question,
but what I say about contractors is when there is a problem, do they become part of the problem or part
of the solution? That's the defining thing.
And I guarantee you that we'll be part of the solution. Whether it's the solution we like or not, we'll
be part of it. But there aren't too many people in Indiana that are really good CMs. There are a lot
of CMAs. There are a lot of really good CMCs. You and I can list 10 of them. I don't know if I answered
yours. I'm sorry. I just don't know how to answer that one. You gave me some things to think about,
and that was the goal. So thank you.
If Garmong had a choice and just walked in, would you prefer CMC, CMA, or a contract? If you could just
hand us a contract, we'd take CMC all day. And why would we take CMC? That's the question. We could
make a lot more money. Because we're going to control the budget. We're going to control the subs. We're
going to control the markups to our subs. We're going to control every aspect of the finances. You make
more money as a CMC. And we can self-perform. So our own forces can come in and self-perform. We make
money off our own soul.
So CMC is where we would make the most money. But CMA is where I'm going to be 100% focused on your
needs. And if we're really truthful about what this project is right now, this would be very difficult
to do CMC with because we don't have enough scope. We've got to define ahead of time, which is why we're
out for the RFP with the architect. Yeah, but the architect itself
Without a CM sitting with it, in my view, is very dangerous. Because you've seen it a million times.
We saw that back to my interest count exam. They got to $32 million in a highway garage. They got only
$419 million. Why don't you just design a $19 million to begin with? If that's your budget, control
it from the beginning. In your case, you're telling me I got $30 million max. We're going to have to
figure out, and we'll figure that out really quick, can we do anything for $30 million? And if we can't,
then we've got to figure out what we're going to do then. I will tell you, I just.
took one down, it would take a million dollars or more to take this building down. Am I close?
Now we know. No. They want more? No. The last bid that we had was while there was other demolition work
being done, and it was 250. Yeah, well, I just took one down very similar to this Henry's County, and
it was 750. So but anyway, my point to you is you're going to spend a half million to take it down.
Wouldn't use that half million in the building,
and make everything work, that's good money spent. And I'm not afraid of the project. I think it's exciting.
And what a tribute it would be to the community if we could put a police station right next to your
beautiful new neighborhood. I think it's fun to work on. But it's not, we're going to have to figure
it out pretty quick what the economics are. That's the problem. We have low in support. Right. We have
the structural. Yeah.
One thing that I did not hear Dan speak about that he shared with us was his experience in public safety
buildings. Would you mind sharing that with the RDC? I think maybe you didn't get maybe I did copy you.
I think I copy you and then I sent them a list of all the police stations. I know that list has gone
out. I know you got it. I know the chief got it. There's there's probably 1415 police stations we built
in recent times.
And some of those were renovations. The White County, we just did the community corrections facility
up there in a Bayer Pharmaceutical Office building that was a major gut in rehab on a 1950s building.
Of the 32 jails built in Indiana in the last 10 years since the Level 6 legislation came out of the
legislature, we built 28 of those 32. And the only reason I mention jails is because most of them have
a Sheriff's Office component.
Sheriff's Office component for a lot of times to duplicate what we would do in a police department.
How many of these are new? 28 are new construction versus rehab? On the jails, I'd say 10% or 10 out
of 28 are new and the rest were rehabs and additions. I feel like I've taken too much of your time,
but I am really humbled by how much time you've given me.
Any other questions? Dana or Anna, what do you need from us this evening? Or is this an opportunity
for us to just listen? I'm sorry? Is this an opportunity for us to just listen and ask questions, or
do you need something from us? Not at this time. Yeah. I don't have anything in front of you. This was
just to introduce you to this type of delivery system, and to introduce you to Garmont,
for you to take it under consideration, not asking you for anything tonight. We have given Dana an agreement.
So you know, and for me, if I'm really going to do a good job for you, the only thing I request is you
get me on board. It's not going to cost anything, all right, $20,000. Get me on board as fast as you
can so when we hire that architect, I'm sitting right with him day one. That's what I really appreciate.
Based on what you said, last question.
Can we still get a GMP? No, not under this delivery system. Not under this delivery system. And just
for reference, those A&E bids are due back on Friday, I believe it is, November 6th. Yeah. So I think
Anne and I discussed and she set some target dates. And so I think our goal would be for the December
meeting to have that decision in front of their proposal.
I think maybe staff needs to discuss, but my personal preferred would be the next RDC meeting. It's
November 16th. 16th. And we've said a couple of days where we can make that happen. All right. Appreciate
it. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, Dave. Are you going to stay around for any reason, or
may I leave? You may leave. All right. We've got new business to start with. I've seen enough RDC business
in my career. I think I can stay for the rest of it. Thank you for what you do. Thank you, Dave. Thanks, Dave.
Okay. I do just want to point out that I believe that the agenda was amended. Number six was added and
A under seven are the same thing. So please feel free to skip A. Thank you. Seven A. I'm just going
to ask because we've been in meeting for almost two hours now. We are starting a new business of which
we've got, you know, almost a dozen items. I'm just going to ask our DC commissioners or staff if you need
a five minute break, I'm happy to do that. I just wanted to open that possibility if anybody would like
to request it. I would like to take that opportunity. Okay, so it is now 6.56. Is five minutes sufficient?
Do you need more? Or would you think more? I'm hopeful for five minutes. Okay, well, that's our goal
is five minutes. Thank you.
Awesome. Okay. Reconvening the RDC meeting for new business. Resolution 2682, determination of annual
spending plan for calendar year 2027. Who would like to speak to that? Great. Thank you very much. Again,
I'm going to be introducing Justin Chang from Reedy. But this is the second of our annual requirements
that we're reporting that we're going to be addressing tonight. And this one you will actually vote
on. So I'm going to go ahead and
share the detail of the spreadsheet that was provided in the packet. All right, so we're going to go
ahead, Justin. Yeah, so this is similar spending plan that we completed last year. This is the second
one. We have to do new reporting requirement.
Just really just here to answer any questions that you guys may have, but to preface these numbers before
you guys go into the questions, is that we try to put as much in there as possible to avoid the possibility
of having to come back and do another test fitting plan. Because why pay us twice when you can only
pay us once, right? We're here now, why today?
And just for for just letting you guys know the process is if we do overspend in any of these areas
so the big ones are the bolder ones like debt payments capital expenditures we have professional services
even if the total spending next year is under the total for all these categories if any one of those
categories go over then we have to redo one of these spending plans to make an amendment next year so we try to
We build a buffer in there based on the spending that we know to make sure we don't have to come back
and redo this spending plan amendment. But like I mentioned, this is really for you to ask me any questions
for why we put those numbers up there.
And we can scroll through these if you all want to see them or ask particular questions. But as you
can see, the majority of the big expenses are listed under debt payments. But then there's also a section
for capital expenditures. And then another section for finance proceeds expenditures. OK. So why don't
you drill down on that a little bit.
Why don't you tell me what finance proceeds expenditures really are? I see the projects. But the proceeds
are from elsewhere. So essentially, it's a little confusing the way the DLJF has this worded. Essentially,
it's when we issue a bond and we use that bond to spend money from that bond. Let's say we issue a $35
million bond.
that entire 35 million needs to go under finance proceeds expenditures. So let's take that police station
that we were discussing earlier. Let's say we do go for 35, and there's soft costs on top of that. So
we build a buffer for all those potential expenditures. Not saying this doesn't obligate us to spend
$40.2 million on the police station. It's just we go further down next year. Once we issue those bonds,
if there are any
Expenditures that we we didn't we didn't first foresee where do you build that buffer in there? and
So it's your contingency. Yes, correct. Correct. Well, well the reason I asked for the explanation is
if you look at the bottom spending and it's a hundred and fifty three million you look at it and say
well You don't have a hundred fifty three million but L is using bond money. It's not really defined and
Correct. It's money that the RDC borrows, essentially. Yes. It's not the payment. The payments are under
A, Section A. But yeah, L is the proceeds of the bond. Yeah, I don't know why they don't do it like
a real financial statement. This is one of those report requirements that came out. Yeah, I realize
it's not you. It's just bizarre.
Is there a section on here for Showers West operations? Showers West is paid for by 2519, is that correct?
So that fund does not collect TIF revenue, so this is specifically for TIF revenue collection funds.
No, I'm looking at that, but I'm seeing, for example, capital operating for the police station. So I'm
just trying to clarify, there's operational expenses in here for the police
I'm assuming that 714, is that? No, so what that was is if the RDC decides to, let's say, a $30 million
project for the police station, if we decide to cash fund $5 million of that, maybe to reduce the annual
debt payment, this allows us to do that. But that's why the numbers are so high, because we have to,
like I said, if one category goes above, we have to reduce this entire thing.
Duplicates essentially if we don't bond then we can use cash if we use cash them if we don't want to
use cash Then we can still bond sure. No, I understand that. I'm just trying to again clarify Where
the distinction is in terms of allocating the funds for operations from TIF funds compared to? Showers
West being from non TIF funds. None of the showers West is not on here. I understand that but I'm asking why I
why is there that distinction why is there money in here for the police station for the operations being
from tiff funds while they're not operations the operations for showers west is not from tiff funds
indiana code for the indiana code section it uh... the particular section says that expenditures can
be for capital uh... and or operations police fire and so that is so it's a public safety fair it's matching
the language that's in the statute, it's not saying you're going to spend it on operations. It's just
saying, it's saying in the category that matches the category of expenditures you can have in the statute
is matched together. So it's not saying you're using it for operations. But that... But it is. It is
being used for operations.
I see the difference is. We're not going to be operating the police station once it's not open right
and once it's operating. Well, but there's that maybe hours before transfer of ownership right that
there may be that and.
we're trying to transfer ownership. Anyway, just again, we're in a position now with Showers West where
we're trying to transfer ownership. We haven't done that yet. We are paying for operational costs, and
I'm just trying to clarify the difference, because that was also purchased with a public safety bond.
So I'm just trying to understand the differences in terms of how that works for those two different
buildings, which technically have similar sources of financing and outcomes. Yeah.
I guess, technically, you could say that part of the funding at Shower's West for the fire part would
be under the statute for that RDC could pay for. I will also say that there was a significant progress
being made to get Shower's West
And it's my understanding that on the December 7th meeting that there will be a presentation on what
that transition would look like. So we're inching towards that, that there has been significant progress made.
And I do just wanted to clarify one thing on the financing for the two projects are quite different.
The proposed financing for the police station would be a TIF revenue bond while the Showers West purchase
was actually not out of the TIF. It was out of the general revenue bond. Okay, thank you. I appreciate
that clarification. Other questions from commissioners on the
2027 TIF spending plan before we have a motion. When we look at the estimated sum of debt, police station
debt, hotel bonds, and we're looking at our overall, you've got a contingency built in. Your contingency
is a percentage base or what was it based on? It's 15% is what we have in there. We've got a 15% overall
what our projected costs are at the present moment. Correct.
from a revenue standpoint where we can justify on our bonds and the rest, we can cover the entire amount.
It can go under. I'm sorry? It can be lower, but this will be the maximum that is allowable based on
what you're seeing from an expenditure standpoint and a revenue standpoint. We could actually go higher
on the annual debt payments. This is just based off our
Project estimates. Project estimates. Which brings me to the question I'm looking at in regards to Hopewell.
At the present moment, Jeff, how much have we got in Hopewell? I'm just asking. What do you mean in
Hopewell? How much have we spent on Hopewell so far? Do we have an idea? No, I don't have that right.
And is that amount in that $44 million? Or is this $44 million on top of what we spent?
That would be totally new that is not that this would be I understand. I'm just I understand I just
want to get this would be a potential Hopewell bond for future infrastructure development Including
sections of Hopewell other than Hopewell South. Okay, the entire Hopewell project east West it could
be you haven't made that to sell we haven't made that this is kind of a budget figure to you know to
make sure that the
I remember when we talked about just the overall TIF capacity, we want to make sure that any decisions
that you make on TIF bonding kind of take into account potential future plans as well as the... Right.
Because at the present moment, is there any bonding on Hopewell? No. That's what I wanted to clarify.
We've got expenditures out and we're potentially looking at another $44 million with a 15% contingency.
Okay. Thank you.
Any other questions regarding resolution 2682, the determination of annual spending plan for calendar
year 2027? One last question. Is there, when we're looking at our general, we've got our potential estimated
bond funds and then our existing garage leases, is there anything other leases out there that we have
any responsibility for in any capacity or that would be outside the TIP?
Is it 2519? Because 2519 is not in here. That you're paying leases on? Yes, that we would pay or potential
leases that we're unaware of. We're paying them or we're collecting them? Paying. He's saying paying.
I'm saying paying. Collecting them. This is a spending plan. Yeah. OK. Just clarification. Yeah, the
only payments. The only payments we make are the Wallen Street garage and the Mercury.
Yeah, it goes by lots of different names, doesn't it? Merrick Carrier, Register, Morton Street. Yeah,
it was Register when the Bowdeans were here, tearing it down. Okay, any other questions before we ask
for a motion on Resolution 2682? I'll move approval of Resolution 2682. I'll second. We have a first
and a second. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Passes unanimously. Thank you.
Thank you. Thanks Justin. Okay, next item on the agenda is resolution 2683, which is approval of professional
services agreement between the City of Bloomington and Crossroads Engineers PC for engineering assessment
for TAP and Vanguard improvements. Good evening. I'm Michael Bitsky from City Engineering. I'm here
tonight to ask for funding for the contract you have in front of you for Crossroads Engineering for
surveying and
analyzing the intersection of Tapp and Vanguard. It was on the transportation impact assessment study
of the southwest side of town. So this is the part of phase one of those projects, if you recall. And
this would be pursuant to resolution 25-127 that set aside $5 million for this effort with the understanding
that we would bring these contracts back to the commission for approval. So this item was approved at
the Board of Public Works
I'm sorry, it will be approved by the Board of Public Works on November 4th. It's on their agenda. And
we do expect an addendum for final design once the analysis, the intersection is complete. So there
will be an addendum for this original contract. Any questions?
You've got it already got the other side. You already got the intersection built at this particular
point. No, we didn't. So there isn't a their intersection exists, but we're looking at modifying the
intersection to take the relocation of Weimar and bring in the South and card, which will increase the
amount of traffic. So we're looking at increasing the intersection, increasing the capacity
of the intersection. Yes, yes.
And that's what the analysis is for to understand what we need there based on the change and traffic
volumes. Yeah, because as we look going through this property and where we have you, do you have you
already got your right of ways in place? We're working on an agreement for that. And then part of the
next next contract includes some of that work. Yes, the is I guess was just for clarity, these
two resolutions were split apart because this first resident the construction
of this first resolution may contain federal funding. Okay. So we're splitting them apart just for clarity
of project. Okay. So as you look at this project overall, because you're trying to straighten out and
get out of the floodplain. That's correct. I mean, bring it to the top of the hill, go straight right
away acquisition. So because this has been going on for about 25 years. Straightening out right away
acquisition and then abandoning Weaver. Is that the overall from
from Wapahani where it takes the sharp turn to the east, yeah, that will no longer be a roadway. And
we looked at this and I may be getting into a little bit of weeds here. We're identifying the Vanguard
intersection. We still, you anticipate being able to get the right of way without having to go through,
come back and ask for money on that. So we, for the intersection of Tapp and Vanguard, when it was,
when right of way was originally given or purchased or created in that area, there was a significant
amount of additional right of way.
that is already public right away. Okay, so we've got that covered. Yes. And then long term,
looking at this, are we all also looking because this is a very expensive road that's going to be very,
very, very expensive, expensive intersection. And then what do we do as we hit Weimer coming back up
to Second Street? Is that part of any long term analysis? It's part of the next contract, the next business
item here on the agenda tonight.
just want to make because we bought we bought the fire extinguisher building about 20 some years ago
and so all right perfect thank you so much sure any other questions or comments on commissioners on
resolution 2683 if not I'll ask for a motion please got a first and a second all in favor say aye aye
any opposed pass unanimously thank you thank you
Okay, next item on the agenda. You're still up. 2684, please, which is approval of professional services
agreement between the city of Bloomington and Crossword Engineers PC for engineering assessment for
tap and Vanguard improvements. Sorry, I misread it. I hadn't scrolled down. I thought I clicked on to
the next one. I was expecting something similar, but it's actually.
So this is 2684, approval of professional services agreement between the city of Bloomington and Crossroads.
Engineers PC for engineering assessment for South Weimar Road relocation and Weimar-Bloomfield intersection
improvements. Yes, this will be the relocation, the full design of the Weimar relocation from Wapahani
down to the intersection of Schmalls and Vanguard, as well as the analysis of Bloomfield.
and Wimmer intersection, which includes the property that was purchased a while back. So this item was
approved by the Board of Public Works on October 20th. So we have an approved contract. We do expect,
like the other business item, we do expect an addendum for the final design of the intersection at Bloomfield
and Wimmer once the analysis is complete. Thank you.
further questions or comments from commissioners on 2684? I just want to verify. Do we have any idea
what this overall construction cost would be? I do not at this time. Because I'm just curious in regards
to where we come from a funding standpoint and trying to do this major road that should enhance our
ability to expand our employment opportunities given the zoning there.
reality of where we are able to fund this after we get the designs done. It concerns me when we spend
this kind of money and we really don't know or have an idea of what our overall construction. Don't
you have to spend this money to fund it? Once the intersection analysis is done, there's a huge difference
in cost between intersection types. So once those recommendations come in, I think we'll be able to
tie those costs down.
With a contingency to make sure we're going to hit the mark. Right, because when we look at 13 years
left into a TIF, and then what our federal funding will be, what our overall matching funds are. It
just concerns me, because it's such a large road that we just funded a piece of one a few years back,
and it's still setting. Thank you. I have a suggestion and a question. Since we're actually just
burning down the five million with each one of these resolutions. It just might be handy for us to have
in maybe the first whereas. It says we've earmarked five million. You also could give us the balance
of what's left that is available. So as we get additional resolutions, we know how much we can spend.
Yeah, I appreciate that. That's a good idea. That's a great idea. That's my token idea. I can go home
now. Call it a day.
Wait. Mike did provide me a breakdown. I do not have it available at the second minute, but I can get
that to you in an email, let you know. I mean, I can do the math. It's not too hard. It'd just be easier
not to have to do the math. We have not processed any claims against that $5 million yet. But we've
made commitments.
So I'm talking about reducing the five million by the commitments. We do have a project tracking sheet
that we will work on adding. Yeah, that could just be included even as an exhibit or reference in the
first whereas. But it would be nice to have something detailed as well. I have a separate question,
which is just based on Randy's note that in terms of the total life period of the TIF that's left. And
this is because this is largely, I don't know,
my take relatively undeveloped in terms of what's forthcoming. And this is a little adjacent, so it's
not really a direct question to you, but more to, let's say, legal. Is there any reason to consider
where maybe this part of the consolidated TIF might be taken out of that so that, because it's relatively
low assessed value right now compared to where the potential is, so that there could be more time for
the total build out that is going to be needed?
And you can certainly let me know if I'm off in my understanding of the total concept of where this
is, what the assessed value is, what the projected need may be. But I'm just asking that question because
we're talking about it now, even though it's not specifically germane to the actual approval of this
resolution. Yes, I would very likely recommend that there be a separate TIF created like we did for
Summit when this area
actually gets ready for development. Most of that property is owned by a public investment board. And
we have an agreement that is almost signed to where in the part that's not already platted that they
would provide a 65 foot right of way through their property
to where Wapahane and we were connect. And so they're going to provide that. If we need more than that,
they wouldn't, you know, wouldn't pay for that, but they're going to provide that. It's a detailed MOU,
so I won't get into the whole thing. But so the, that this area wouldn't develop without the road.
So it's going to need the road to develop. So we'll need to do the improvements. And then once
the improvements are made, then as it starts to develop and it's his own TIF, it can start generating
funds to help cover the cost of what had gone into that area.
that can be used on other projects as well. Like we're using those funds on this project. Okay. So what
I'm hearing, this thing will get broke out eventually if it's on TIF again. Yes. It's been a TIF since
91 and then it's been reintroduced again. Right now the investment board pick property is not actively
being developed.
at this time. OK. So that'll be something that's forthcoming somewhere in the lifetime of this project
in, let's say, the next two years or so? Likely, or at least any time before the development actually
starts. OK. As long as it's on somebody's radar, just saying. Yes. Yes. Yes. Design. I am.
have been looking at areas that could use improvement that might be even if they're not inside the existing
TIF that the RDC might want to consider looking at to help with improvement. So yes, again, 2040 is
just around the corner in some ways. Okay. Well, thank you for your help with that question. Other questions?
Crossroads. They give you a time frame in order to, once you sign contracts with them, to get this done.
So we've got a time in there. We're a little behind the schedule that was presented in the request for
information just to get to this contractual phase. But we intend to have South William or the South
William relocation ready for construction
middle to the third quarter of next year. And then that's just to stay in line with the schedule that's
been presented to us by the developer of Summit. Just try to stay in step with them and what they think
they'll be doing. The Shasta Meadow area. Well, to me, specifically the construction of Adams and Sudbury,
which then sets up the ability to sell lots in Shasta Meadow, yes.
If there are no other questions or comments from commissioners, I will ask for a motion for resolution
2684, please. I'll make a motion to approve 2684 as presented. Second. We've got a first and a second.
All in favor say aye. Aye. Anybody opposed? Passes unanimously. Thank you.
Okay, next item on the agenda is Resolution 2685, Approval of First Amendment to the Professional Services
Agreement with Applied Engineering Services, Incorporated for Plumbing and Engineering Services at the
4th Street Garage. Who would like to speak to that? I will. Yeah, I think that's a data. During the
investigation work that Applied had done,
They ended up finding additional work that needed done, but we were able to get some things corrected
by the original contractor, which was good. So that saved us the cost of that actual activity. But in
doing so, it took some extra
time for applied engineering to do their work. And we need a concise report of the activities that were
done. And so in order to complete their scope of work, they needed some additional, their scope of work
was increased to
cover that. So there was further evaluation of repairs, additional work to address the existing piping
conditions, including the need to develop a revised design to provide adequate slope for the garage
drain system. So the additional work is laid out for you and
So this is just the cost to complete their part. Again, it was a great benefit that the contractor came
back and repaired some of the issues. And again, this is being paid out of the bond fund. Any idea what's
left in that? $450,000.
And that'll be used for ongoing maintenance and operation. Well, no, not maintenance, but not routine
maintenance. Yeah, let me rephrase that. When something fails. Yes, exactly. Just like the sprinkler
system. If and when we discover additional things. We discover anything additional. And this work's
already been done, performed, over with. We're just catching the dollars up with it. So it's an additional $8,465.
We're done. We're good on the 4th Street garage, on its drainage. We've got it figured out on its sprinkler.
To the best of our knowledge. You've been around the business long enough to know that things happen.
Water will always find a way. But this is the best effort that we have to get this fixed and done. And
we don't have to engage an engineer at this present moment to do any additional evaluation on this.
This is so we can process our claim.
If there's no further questions, I'll ask for a motion on 2685. Do you have another question? No. Okay.
Just a second. No. Okay. Approval of Resolution 2685. Second. Move a first and a second. All in favor
say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Okay. Sorry, be legal. Nope, nope. You're good. Make sure we're not in the
opposed line. Passes unanimously.
Okay, next item on the agenda is resolution 2686, approval of agreement with VET Environmental Engineering
LLC for lead-based paint and asbestos inspections at College Square. Who would like to speak to that?
I'd be happy to talk about it. As you know, any time you're considering demolishing a building, an item
will require specific testing for asbestos and lead-based paint testing. We have had phase ones on this
building, but they did not do this specific testing. So this is now to the tune of $17,184.81 if we
are to consider the possible demolition of the building. Obviously, no agreements have been made.
at a position to say that this is absolutely happening or not happening, but this is to better inform
us as we move forward with considerations of its future. Okay, thank you. Any comments or questions
from commissioners from resolution 2686? Is there any other things we need to be looking for besides
letting asbestos so it won't come back?
I don't think so. I mean, we've been working on trying to obtain closure letters from IDEM at College
Square following the remediation efforts that were recent. So we're still waiting on those right now.
But we've already done geotechnicals. We've already had phase ones. We've already had phase twos. So
this is just the next step. In the building itself. Yes. In the building itself as we consider its future.
Which? Who knows? Well, yeah, considering, I think we've spent about $700 or $800 on utilities on a
monthly basis. And we are actually in the process of billing back some of those utilities to Weddle,
who's been occupying the space right now, too. So those will be credited back to you soon. OK. And then
last question in regards to this. We've got to get it done if we're ever going to consider tearing this
down. And it's not getting cheaper, obviously. Right.
to tear them down. How many solar panels are in, how many are ours, and where are we gonna take them
so we can consider this, because we're spending $17,000 to tear them down, and we've got to. That is
a whole nother conversation. Director Cooper-Smith is no longer here with us tonight. She's been working
hard with Dana to come up with a plan of how to deal with the solar panels, so I assure you that it
is on our radar, and hopefully we'll be updating you soon. There's only so much bandwidth.
anything we can do to help with that. Thank you. Yes, sir. The contract, well, the way the resolution
reads, the funds are available up to June 1st of 2027. I believe that's what it says. But I don't see
anywhere in the documents where that actually has to complete
Maybe I missed it, so that's why another set of eyes is great. But it needs to have a deadline. I'd
be happy to add a deadline to this. I think when I last spoke to them, they were able to start working
on it pretty soon. But I think we were giving ourselves some flexibility if there was coordination with
IDEM. Well, I don't mind. The resolution reads fine.
how long the funds are available from us, but I don't want, I don't think that gives, that's
not a completion. The term of the agreement expires on June 1st, although that obviously does not necessarily
say that the work will be done by that time. There's like nothing in this proposal here. Oh, I'm just
looking at the agreement for services and the term, right, where that
says that it shall commence on the effective date and expire on the first day of June, 2027. So my inference,
which maybe it needs to be spelled out more clearly, was that that meant that- Well, I guess then the
follow up to that comment, it doesn't take that long. So let's shorten that up. Open to suggestions.
Happy to modify- By the end of the
first quarter of next year. I mean, we'd like the information sooner than later. If there's a remediation
problem that we don't want to wait till June to find out about it. Sure. I think that's fine. Because
if we look to tear it down, what is the time frame? Well, I'm trying to get them there as soon as possible.
Got to get this approved for them for me to give them the green light to go I April 1st is fine with
me March 1st is fine with me. Obviously we would like this Yeah, so I don't care It's it's literally
just like the report by March I will make sure that that works with them
So then you would need to, if you're going to approve it, move approval with that modification. I will.
And that modification would be in the resolution and in the agreement? Okay. Anything further? Thank
you for calling that to our attention. If not, I will ask for a motion for 2686, please. I'll move approval
of resolution 2686 with
modification that the completion date for the work from that environmental is March 1, 2027. Second?
We've got a first and a second. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Passing unanimously. Thank you.
We now move on to resolution 2687, which is approval of amendment number three to the agreement with
Flintlock Limited Company for additional services related to the creation of a planned union development
PUD for Hopewell South. Would like to speak to that. I'm happy to also, sorry, I was updating that piece.
So as you know, with our pre-approved plans,
We are able to move forward with those without engaging. And in Indiana, you have to have a stamped
architectural drawings from an engineer in Indiana. And so these are for those multifamily buildings
that require additional work, unfortunately, for our plans. I don't know, Dana, do you have anything?
It's an MEP stamp.
was we did not have to have these larger multiplex buildings. But then as part of the design to keep
the number of units, when you looked at the right of ways of the roads and things like that that were
being done during the design to keep the unit number up, there had to be a larger
There's two six unit buildings and two 12 unit buildings. And so initially these weren't part of the
scope because they weren't needed. But when the area to build got smaller because of the right of ways
getting larger than we had hoped, then that made it again that we had to use these.
These are different structures than what was originally determined. And they have more than four units.
They require different building plans. And so when developing this project, it was said that we would
have pre-approved plans to a certain extent.
And so in order for that to be true for these buildings, they need this additional work to design them
out. These buildings weren't, again, part of the initial project. They came in as a result of changes
that were made because of right of way and such. And so because they require a different building code
that they fall under, they do require different types of drawings. And so this would cover those other
drawings so that these units would have the same offering as the other buildings where there were, to
a certain extent, pre-approved plans.
pre-designed buildings like the others were. For the footprint. Sorry. Go ahead. No, ladies first. I
was just going to say it requires an MEP stamp, which is mechanical, electrical, and plumbing engineering
stamp on these particular types. So looking back through the June 2025 when this was presented by Flintlock
at the time,
those buildings were there from a footprint standpoint. No? No. Because of the changes the council had
made, in order to preserve our unit count, they ended up adding back in these multifamily buildings
to help keep the unit count up. So there were several changes. And in fact, there is language in their
agreement that says, should this be something that comes up, that we would have to get this done.
and I can pull that up, because I questioned it. Well, I questioned it because I looked at the original
layout that was presented when we went through the planning. It had the Faulkner and Williams on it
as from a visual 2D look. So I understand because of the code issue, it got missed. But what I'm asking is,
is that a necessity to go ahead and have these pre-approved because they are the multi-family units.
And with the platting of what we're looking at now, is this something that has to be done from a pre-approved
standpoint? Because when we get into our multi-families, we're in a little bit of a different
set than providing single family and duplex. That is true. But unfortunately, the language in the PUD
does say pre-approved plans. And so this is a condition of that. And then also, it was buried in the
language of the proposal from Flintlock that as a contingency, that if this were to come up, that this
would be an additional fee. Indiana requires an Indiana-specific MEP stamp. Right. They were using Arkansas.
Yeah, the PUD requires a catalog of pre-approved plans. OK. So I guess the question I would look at
is, what's the timing on a pre-approved? Planning is actually already given their blessing
for the single-family residential house plans. So those are great from the pre-reviewed, pre-approved
standpoint. Obviously, these two buildings are the last ones.
because my concern of this is as we're looking at a multifamily building in regards to as who's going
to buy it and build it and is there any going to be any additional modifications that they see based
upon what the market conditions are in Bloomington in order to condo these out. Because while I... The
modifications who's paying for it. Exactly what's the modifications that would need to be made who would
have to pay for it and from a pre-approved standpoint
You know, because the singles, the duplexes, and even the tries, I understand. But when we're getting
into these four multifamily buildings, it just concerns me because of reconfiguration based on, oh,
here's what's pre-approved. Well, I'm sorry, but that's not necessarily what the market or the community
has the ability to absorb. We have to go back for an amendment. Well, the UDO does have a section of
what can be amended within the PUD. And there's a certain percentage of size. Height can be changed,
but not more than eight feet, or you can't add a story to it. So there are modifications that can be
made and still fall within the PUD. But so if a developer
this building and wanted to to change it they they could do so and you know rework it to their to their
likings as long as they stayed within the you know not changing it by a certain size or height.
based on the setbacks aside. It seems to me like we're talking about something that is hypothetical.
And if there is changes by a particular developer, most likely it would be on his nickel, not ours,
because we're providing a baseline of what we're going to do. And if they want to do some modifications
that are approved by planning, that's fine. But I don't know that we can sit here
No, my only concern, I'm not trying to hypothesize anything. I'm trying to get that word out. What I'm
looking at is, as we look at this, and we're supposed to try to make everything from an affordability
standpoint, each one of those costs that adds on always adds a little bit more. I know, Randy. But the
streamlining things by having the pre-approved plans, again, which is already amended by the PUD, is
at least supposed to help get through the review process more efficiently, more quickly.
I'm just quick looking like, for example, at South Bend's catalog, um, from 2025, where they've got
up to a sixplex apartment in there in terms of just as an example of what a catalog, the range of housing
that could be in there. Um, and I think again, as is coming out that we get what is pre-approved by
the city for our end of things. And, um, and that's hopefully something that then can follow through
in terms of make easing the way from a,
builder standpoint, so. Right, and if we were to hold off on this too, even if the PUD would allow for
it, I mean, how does that impact the affordability of the units that the builder has to take that cost
on? Because they have to have that. Right, the point is having the pre-approved plans is to make, to
streamline the total entitlement process so that you can go straight to site review as opposed to all
the other in-between. So anyway, just... Yeah, I don't disagree on any of it.
The only question was what the cost factor was that's come back to us at the end. Well, maybe not. Observe
that, right? Maybe not. It may be a perfect thing. Or maybe we pass that cost on to the individuals
that request it. Yeah. So just trying to minimize costs. I just don't want to have that conversation.
I know, but we're trying to keep the project moving too.
The point of pre-approved plans is to ideally to reduce the cost of the total by expediting the process
and reducing the upfront costs for the builder. Any other questions on this amendment that's part of
the agreement with Flintlock for resolution 2687? If not, I'll ask for a motion.
Approval of resolution 2687. Second. We've got a first and a second. All in favor say aye. Aye.
Any opposed? Passes unanimously. I'm sorry, you are? I am going to oppose. Okay, so we've got three
in favor, one opposed. Thank you. Okay, we are now on to resolution 2688.
which is approval of the third amendment to the agreement with Mother Nature Landscaping Incorporated
for erosion control measures at Hopewell East. I'm taking this one for Kendall this evening. We were
asking for an approval of amendment number three in the amount of 5825 with Mother Nature Landscaping
for what will be the final erosion control services at Hopewell East. We recognize that Milestone was
the original contractor.
We believe they satisfied their contract with the original install as well as multiple attempts to repair
what was damaged. But there was just, after repeated efforts, they're just approved and unapproved use
in the northwest corner of that development that we could not sustain and get to hold erosion control.
So in an effort to try to get the MS4 permit approved and completed by the end of the year,
We're asking to hire Mother Nature for this amount to get that area completed so we can get those permits
closed out. Thank you. Any questions or comments from commissioners on resolution 2688? Don't we have
an agreement with Calumet to utilize that area at the present moment for a lay down area? I'm unaware
of that. Yeah. No, I believe it.
That is not the same area North Calumet. I believe we were speaking for construction folks. I think
we've been chasing Calumet off that space. Well, I understand they're not using it, but we did. Well,
actually, they may not be using it continually. They're using the high. Yeah, I understand they're using
high speed for their lay down old high speed building for their lay down, but they have been used. They
have been on the site with their vehicles.
We've got a video. We've got our camera. The question is, is it approved use or are they just? Well,
unless, did they never execute? We passed by a resolution to allow them to use that site. It also terminates
December 31st of 2026. The resolution to utilize that area was with Calumet.
because they were supposed to contain it and re-establish it. So I understand we're going to close our
permit out. I just want to make sure from a responsibility cost-wise.
My memory serves me correct. What it was is they would not sign the agreement. And so because they found
another place to go. They're on Madison Street at the old high speed. OK, so they wouldn't sign it so
we don't have an agreement with Calumet. Which is why you're running them off every time. Yeah.
Dana's correct. I've found an email. They've decided to put their staging area elsewhere. They will
not be signing the agreement. OK. Appreciate all that. I've got a question, much like a couple resolutions
prior. Where in these documents does it give a completion date for Mother Nature? It does not.
I know there's no I didn't see a completion date, but I did see a an immediate start date. OK, well.
And then the funding authorization terminates May 31st, right? I know that, but we certainly not going
to wait that long to have the. So no, this is the right time to see it is right now. So I think with
all these performance contracts we had to have completion date, so it's a word for the future. Good. So what?
What do you recommend? Pardon me? What do you recommend as a completion date? March 1st. Those last
two months would only be if it was damaged. That should be done.
should be all done. They should be done in the next couple weeks if they're given a go and then process
coming soon. I was thinking it'd be by the end of the year because it's germinate erosion control. We
don't want to run it. We don't want to run into next year. So yeah, I mean germination if it's going
to happen this year, it's going to happen the next six weeks. So yeah, and so their work, I mean, they
don't have, they're not, we're not gonna wait around for germination, but their work should be done
by the end of December. Yes.
Will that satisfy and get us our MS board finished? It depends how dense it comes up, how dense it terminates
and how. I don't know. I'm just asking the question to try to get through, because this is being put
in for a so we can close out a project. I think I think sodding is just my perception. Lack of experience
here in Bloomington, but sodding has its own challenges because of the
the mixture that we have in the UDO for. For the bluegrass. For the bluegrass. Instead of fascia. Yeah.
Which, if you can get that changed. Bluegrass isn't native. Okay, so are we getting an amendment for
our December 31st closing of this project? Yeah, I was going to do the resolution with that.
Yeah I'm ready for a motion I just wanted to clarify the amendment and where it was going and what we're
saying. I'll move approval of resolution 2688 with a revision that completion date for the work by Mother
Nature's Landscaping to be completed by December 31st, 2026.
We've got a first and a second. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Passes unanimously. Thank you.
Thank you. Next item on our agenda is resolution 2689, approval of the second amendment to the agreement
for public art in Hopewell East. Ms. Dragovich. Hi, thank you. These last two resolutions overlap a
little bit, so would it be okay if I talked about them
currently. So these last two resolutions are for undulate artwork in Hopewell East. You, I can't remember
which date you approved ENB paving to come in and install footers, concrete footers at the site. They've
now completed that work as of early last week and now, sorry,
It's eight o'clock, my brain's fried. So this second amendment, we've had to do a lot of site prep work
for this project and we did not want to do it in July or August or even early September to accommodate
all of the plants that are in the park currently. We wanted to wait until the fall to wait for plants
in essence. And so that has extended the project and thus it's time to update
the agreement that we have with the artist, John Reisak Bunyama. And so his project, his installation
is on track to be installed the first week of December. That's what we're still targeting. But this
will be to accommodate any work or any potential, hopefully none, but any potential weather delays in
that installation. And so we're asking for an extension to March 31st of 2027.
And do you want to distinguish anything in terms of 2690 since you had offered to talk about both of
them? And so as part of site prep, we also need to run electrical conduit, bore for electrical conduit.
There is a lighting feature on the sculpture. And so this would accommodate for that. That work is with Snedeker.
I solicited quotes, and Snedeker submitted a quote for $19,000 to do that work. And there's a lag currently
because the concrete footers need to cure for 30 days before we can install the sculpture. And so if
we have this window right now, that will keep us on target for that December installation date. Yes?
Any questions or comments from commissioners
these resolutions because I'm going to, since it was presented jointly, welcome questions on both jointly
and we can do a motion jointly as long as there's no other ways. I've got a kind of a question, maybe
a little more general, but it's more pertaining to 90 than 89. So we have, we've made a commitment to
spending 1% of some number. I'm not really sure what that number ended up being.
So the foundation work and the electrical work and everything that the artist is doing, that all is
within that 1%? So the contract that we have with the artist says that the RDC will pay for site prep.
So it is beyond that initial commitment that you made. But it seems to me that 1%, which you're making
a commitment for an art project,
All of the work that goes into the art project ought to be part of that 1%. So I don't understand why
there's add-ons. 1% is the entire project. I see what you're saying, and it makes complete sense. I
don't really have an answer for you. I do not know what the total project cost was for the 1%.
off the cuff sorry we've come you've committed to a hundred thousand for the art for the sculpture and
that's broken down by with the artist and then you approved funding for EMB paving which was about $48,000
I believe and then this is an additional and I didn't think about it in that first
Resolution or the second resolution or I would have run it up then but I guess Maybe the ship is sailed
in this case, but I'll be looking at this differently And we say it's 1% and the numbers a hundred thousand.
That's a completion of at a hundred thousand and not Just the artist piece and then we've got
six other vendors that we gotta pay, and suddenly now we're up to 150,000. That's not what we signed
up for. I think that's wise, and I see that as well. In line with that, I would suggest and ask if there
would be a way for any 1% for the art project where there would be an addendum with any resolution that
has what the 1% is, how it's getting spent down,
And so just that it's not kind of buried in the whereas is that it's an actual, you know, budget that
would be an addendum to any of these because I think that would just be much more transparent in terms
of understanding how the money is being allocated and spent. Thank you for raising that.
That's a good question. I know our Assistant Director for the Arts in ESD is looking into maintenance
of all pieces that we have. One of our interns just over the summer went out to every piece of public
art that we have and did a conditions assessment. It's definitely something that's catching up to us.
The maintenance fund has historically been underfunded, so I know she's looking for ways to bolster
that. And our 1% for the arts doesn't mandate that we construct physical pieces of art. It just goes
to 1% of the arts. And so there's lots of ways you can fund.
the arts, not necessarily just physical capital infrastructure. No, I'm just looking at what we have
at the present moment in our community. I'm digressing. Excuse me, that's exactly what she's saying,
is that there's opportunities potentially in the future to use the 1% for the arts, not to build new
art, but to sustain existing. For any allocation for a given project, that some of it be dedicated to
a maintenance fund. A maintenance fund, yes.
dance performances, anything. I think we've traditionally gone towards capital projects. But you're
saying we can use that 1% for maintenance of existing projects. Yes. All right. So the next project
comes up. We can say, I'm sorry, your 1% for your building will now go to maintenance of the pre-existing.
It will come up during the police station discussion. OK. That works. OK.
got a collar on in our community and it has to be maintained and those things are achieved so thank
you. Okay so we have now heard for both resolution 2689 and 2690 I will ask for a motion for both unless
you choose to separate them. Move approval for resolution 2689 and 2690. Second.
We have a first and a second. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Passes unanimously for both 2689
and 2690. Thank you. Okay, that is the end of new business on our agenda this evening. Is there anything
further for general discussion? Dinner. You're thinking of something?
I'll yield. I'll yield at the given the hour. I'll yield to the next meeting. Oh, we can't wait. Okay,
I'll take a motion to adjourn, please. So moved. Okay. Thank you all. We're trying to figure out if
this was it's not a record, but it's probably up there. So anyway.