- All right, we're going to call to order the Monday, August 25th work session of the Ellisville Town Council. A little bit before we start for administrative housekeeping here, this is different than a regular budget session, I'm sorry, different than a regular council meeting in that there are no public comment, there is no public questions, there is no public input. This is simply a work session for the council to receive information and to ask questions of our staff in a public format.
- There will be no votes taken during the work session this evening, or at least there's none anticipated, although they are allowed under Indiana law. This session will be immediately followed by a regular town council meeting where all of our normal rules, et cetera, will be in place. So with that said, do you wanna start? No cussing as well. No promises. Well, I think we're gonna start with presentation
- from Baker Tilley, Paige is here and Brandon and Noel and that's what he's going to do. Are you going to do a PowerPoint too?
- Okay, good evening, Paige Sandstone with Baker-Tilley Municipal Advisors. So this is the presentation I'm gonna be going through. The first page is really a chart that shows your net property tax collections, actual and projected for 2023 through 2028. So just to explain this chart, the blue is what we expect
- you will collect or what you have collected. The red is what I'm gonna say normal circuit breaker before SCA one, before the new legislation passed. So if we look at 2025, just to give us a baseline, we expect that the town will collect $3,026,000 in property tax, 76,000 will be returned to taxpayers in the form of credits. So in other words,
- If we didn't have the circuit breaker in place, you would collect $76,000 more on top of that 3,026,000. Now, because of Senate Enrolled Act 1, we are gonna have additional circuit breaker and additional tax credits. That's in the orange. So for 2026, we anticipate that you will collect about 3.4 million in property tax.
- 90,000 will be returned to taxpayers in the form of credits, and then 182,000 more will be additional circuit breakers and additional tax credits. So basically, you're not gonna collect about 271,000 of what you are levying because of the Circuit Breaker and Senate Enrolled Act I. So going forward, well, staying on 2026 for just a moment, there is about a $300,000 increase from 26,
- 2025 to 2026. That is assuming you are approved for the three-year growth levy appeal. You are eligible to apply for 390,000 levy appeal. This will be the last year that you can file for this appeal. It was eliminated in the statute beginning in 2026. So this will be your final year. So we do see a jump
- of about 300, almost 350,000 from 25 to 26. Then in 27 and 28, your revenues are somewhat flatlined as far as property tax is concerned. 27, you should only expect about a $90,000 increase in total. And 2028, about an $80,000 increase in total. You do see that the credits and the circuit breakers are increasing in 2027 and 2028.
- You know the legislative changes are going to phase in through 2031 So we expect those numbers those losses and revenue to continue to rise as we go through to 2031 Page are they calculating the circuit breaker differently? Is that why we have such because it's still supposed to be
- but 1%, 2%, they V. What I've heard is that now they're collecting, they're factoring that in before deductions.
- So, they're not calculating it any differently. What's happening is or what we believe will happen is because there's so much more in deductions, that's going to drive your net assessed value either down or severely limit the growth, which will start increasing tax rates. And whenever we have increases in tax rates, circuit breaker credits will increase. Another component of this is the new homestead credits.
- So that is a component of that as well. So both of those combined, circuit breakers and the tax credits are causing those additional losses in property tax revenue.
- Moving on to the next page. So that was just the property tax piece. I also wanted to kind of give you a look at total revenues of your major funds just to see how they're changing. You know, we would hope to see a steady increase, right? But that's not exactly what we're gonna see. So 2025 as a baseline, total revenues in these major funds are about $8 million. That's local income tax, property tax and all the other miscellaneous revenue.
- 2026 yeah, we're gonna see a jump part of that or most of that is that 390,000 of I'm losing my train of thought 390,000 of your levy appeal and then also you are going to have a little bit of growth in your local income tax we have estimates of
- Now available for 2026. They are just estimates right now as long as the county doesn't change the mix or Or do anything with the rates? It'll probably remain as it is now. So you are getting some growth there in 2027 only a small amount of growth and overall revenue 89 000 That's not very much if you look at the big picture. You've got 8.6 million in revenue. This means that
- Technically, if you want balanced budgets, you would only be able to increase budgets department-wide by $90,000. And then in 2028, we expect a decline of 370,000. That's when we have the new local income tax structure and also ramping up again with the circuit breaker and the tax rates changing at that time. Is this factoring in for 2028 or getting them
- that the council is approving the max in contacts? Okay. Yes, that is. And the max will be a little bit less than you're getting now. So yeah, it does factor that in. Thank you. The next page now is a, I call it like a budget status report. So this is your 2026 budget as currently proposed. So column A is where we expect you will end this year, 2025.
- So you can see all the cash balances for the various funds. We expect the general fund will end 2025 with $2.2 million. The receipts are very important here because we talk a lot about balanced budgets. So ideally, you want to match your disbursements with your receipts. Now, because we know what's heading towards us in the future,
- In this case, it's probably good that you're under budgeting your receipts because by the time, we'll get to that in a minute, but by the time we get to 2028, you would not be able to afford a $4.9 million budget. And so using some forethought and some foresight looking out to 2028, you want to make sure that whatever budget you approve in 2026 is sustainable.
- not only in 26, but going out beyond 26. So we currently have a proposed budget of about 4.6 million. So you have a budget surplus. In other words, you are under budgeting your receipts by almost $400,000. Looks good right now, but as you see, when we get in the next two years, we can see why that might be a good idea to do that.
- And then the estimated ending balance is the last column, about 2.6 million. So strong cash balances, that's what we like to see. But again, you don't want to add to your recurring costs for 2026 if you cannot sustain that in 27, 28, 29, et cetera.
- Some of these other funds have a little imbalance. I think there's some capital outlays in there as well, so I don't think that those are as critical. You do have some cash reserves that will fund some of that imbalance. I think the one that we really have to keep an eye on is the general fund.
- And these numbers also include that three-year growth appeal, which there's no guarantee. So if the 390,000 does not get approved, then you can still have a balanced budget. But I think that would be very much a negative impact going out into the future. I'm hoping you get that appeal. That's what the appeal was for, is growing communities. And it's unfortunate that it was eliminated from the statute starting in 2026.
- And they've kept the growth quotient at 4%. Is that correct? It's 4% for 2026. We don't know what it's going to be yet for 2027. We have assumed in our analysis that it'll be 4% in 27, 28, and 29. The statute isn't limiting it right now for 27, but we've seen the legislature go in and put a limit on each time. So we're trying to be conservative. If they don't put a limit on it, it should be around 5% growth.
- So the next page then is your 2027 budget. I know we typically only look at one budget year, but I think it's critical that we do look out a couple budget years. So we took your proposed budget for 2026 and we added a 3% growth. On the receipt side, we added in 4% growth on property tax and then added in those estimated losses from Senate Enrolled Act 1.
- So it looks like, yes, you have a sustainable budget there, just barely. Yeah, I mean, we didn't add very much to your budget, but it's going to 2028 that we have some concerns, obviously, because, again, we just added on a 3% growth. We get to 2028, and this is where you're probably wondering, why is that budget so much higher?
- It's because whatever you're paying for now in public safety local income tax and lit economic development, in 2028, you will need to move those expenses to your general fund and then adopt that 1.2% local income tax so that everything's funded out of general. That's why that budget jumped up. It's just basically moving those expenses that can no longer be funded in lit public safety and lit economic development over to the general fund.
- So by the time we get to 2028, which is the last page there, we're looking at an imbalance of like 518,000 and that's if you adopt the full 1.2%. Now, I will say this, there have been some rumblings or some chatter that there could be some further legislative changes. I think communities are finding that a lot of these changes are gonna cause some serious negative impacts.
- and it ranges all over the state of Indiana. But I think that's gonna put some pressure on the General Assembly to make some change. What those changes will be, who knows? But as we stand here today, this may be what it looks like, at least based on preliminary analysis. What questions do you have for me?
- This assumes no growth as far as any type of annexations, any type of increased or AV, anything like that, correct? I don't believe we included any growth in that assessed value because we feel like the way the legislation is written
- either your growth is gonna go down or it's gonna be limited. It's not gonna grow as much as it has in the past. Even if it does, all that's gonna do is drive down your tax rate, which is good, because we would hope you would see some circuit breaker savings from that. But yeah, I believe, do you remember Brandon? Zero percent growth, okay. Yeah, and I looked in your net assessed value for 2026 isn't out yet, so I'd be interested to see what that does. But yes, certainly, growth is the way,
- that you're gonna have some positive outcome, because it should reduce circuit breaker credit. It won't directly increase your maximum levy, but it should reduce the circuit breaker credits. And even if we do, let's just say, for argument's sake, go on an annexation spree or whatever, we're still limited to that 4%.
- You are, but there is an appeal that you could file for annexations. That was not eliminated by statute. So if you annex an area and you need to provide services to that area, you may be able to qualify for an appeal for that.
- you will get an automatic increase to your levy for annexation up to 15%. So let's say you annex an area and it increases your overall net assessed value by 5%, you can get an automatic increase to your maximum levy of 5%. So annexation does help, but it depends on how much service you have to provide to that area. It's helping on one end, but it's also costing more on the other. Exactly, exactly. Potentially, yeah.
- What are the questions from Council? Do you wanna have questions, Mike? Do you have any? I don't have any questions. We've been in contact with Baker-Tiller, and specifically Brandon and Page, and we're just, I mean, everything they're telling you now, we've got used to hearing, and we're in alignment as far as
- what we need to do for the next four or five years. But at the end of the day, it boils down to a grim future as far as there'll probably be no raises. We'll be lucky to cover increases in our premiums for our employees for health insurance.
- We cannot replace any safety officers. We have an opening now. We can't replace it for policemen. And, you know, as we try to compete moving forward for economic growth and people to come here, we're going to have limited resources to help with attracting outside people to come in here, whether, you know, it's economic activities or
- things that complete our town. We're gonna be limited on what we can do because even if it's not a reoccurring cost, it seems like we need to keep a lot of powder dry, not knowing how far into the future we're gonna have to live this way. So. Paige, I'm sorry. Does this include if we pass the wheel tax? No, it does not. Okay. So that would be a little bit more. Yes.
- It's not going to solve our problems, but. Right. Right. So again, Paige, for the people who are watching or will eventually watch this, we are not alone in this, correct? This is every community. You are absolutely not alone. This is something that is basically causing a challenge for all local units of government in the state.
- The extent of the challenge just varies all over. I can't believe it again. I don't want to make light of anything. But we have done, I think, a really good job of trying to position ourselves for this. I can't help but think there's not communities out there who are going to go in the red real quick. They are. I foresee service levels dropping in some areas, especially the cities that are really hit hard with circuit breaker.
- I don't see any way that they're gonna be able to continue to provide the same level of service that they're providing. I mean, I think it can be drastic in some areas. Other questions, comments, supervisors? Well, as we've heard, we're not replacing a police officer, which like Paige says, that affects our services to the community. Over the years since I've been here, we started out with several
- reserve officers, which has dwindled down to about four active officers now. We have two part-time officers, because not many former police officers want to put their lives on the line for $25 an hour. So it's hard to keep those people involved. So I just, again, I hear what you're saying. I still worry about not replacing a police officer. I think that's a,
- a bad direction to go, but I know you have a job to do, but. I can't agree with you more, and hopefully at some point we can do that, but up front we can't promise something we can't continue two years from now, or even a year from now, and to say, well, we'll get it through attrition is a wishful thought, and probably would be true, but it's not a guarantee. I see attrition for us would just be,
- lesser services all around. Well, I mean, attrition meaning somebody resigns or retires between now and when essentially that bill comes due that we can't pay with our current finances. That would still put us down. I think what you're saying, even with attrition. I've heard all the predictions, and this was good. I was hoping we'd hear something a little different tonight. Right. And we'll get through it. We're scheduling to get through it. So I just wanted to, you know,
- bring that to your attention that, you know, the services is going to be lacking. You know, we're gonna have less people at the fair or at the fall festival, less people for fireworks, just fewer people. So thank you for listening. Anyone else? Great presentation. Yes. Thank you guys.
- On that our biggest concerns right now is our positions are all filled But as I sent an email to you guys the other day just for information other entities are having the same issue and half of our staffing at the curry Pike station is Filled by the mineral fire district, which works out good for both of us the biggest issue with that is
- If they do not fill those spots, that's six open spots out of that station. So we'll just have to split some crews between the station and all that's filling that one. We'll get it covered, but it'll be a lot less staff at each station. And with the run stats that you guys seen, we're quite busy in the county, just in our own jurisdiction. Guys, I get it, and I wish there was more.
- There's simply not more there. I mean, if somebody wants to say what we're cutting, feel free. Now's your time. Anybody? We've had enough meetings. We're pretty used to the drill. So I mean, the reason nobody's saying anything is because we've come to the conclusion that what Paige is saying
- It might be worse than what Paige is saying. So we have to be careful about how we go about our business. Luckily, we're in the position we are now with our general fund, and we can weather it for some time. And it doesn't mean no services will be provided. I mean, we've always found a way to take care of the town, and we'll continue that. But in all the years,
- that I've been here since 98 when there was a problem, we made an opportunity out of it and we come up with a solution. And even though we've been frugal forever, I mean, I never can remember not worrying about money and trying to figure out how to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. We always had to think like that, but this is the first time that I think that maybe we've met our match as far as
- being able to roll up our sleeves like it's been set up north and take care of ourselves. I think they've trapped us this time and threw the baby out with the bath water, so. I gotta kinda disagree just a minute. Pardon me? I gotta disagree just a little bit. I mean, in the end, is it gonna hurt? Yeah. Are we gonna make it? Yeah, because we're used to making do with what we've done before. We've been here before, folks. We'll be here again. I wish it was different, but
- Everybody in this room has always got the job done and by no means do we want to tell you do more with less Again, I wasn't trying to be argumentative if there's cuts you think we can make let's hear them If there's cuts in other areas, let's hear them But I don't think because I know you guys have had at least three four or five meetings about this I don't think anybody's arrived at that just yet and certainly none of us have So we are where we're at and you can't go back So you might as well just put your head down and go forward and keep pounding on the wall until we get out of this and
- We did offer some cuts of our budget we offered some cuts and They the belief was we couldn't support it right in future, but we did offer those cuts Jimmy and I get that but I'm talking about long term, you know You can cut it for a while But it still leaves us in the same situation and we still got to make up for what we cut at some point the bill is going to come due and
- And again, do you sacrifice training? Well, okay, we can do a little bit less here, but now are we putting officers that are still here at risk? Because we're not providing the ongoing training that you and I both know has to be ongoing or it doesn't continue. It's a skill set that is very fragile. Do we chop off? Okay, take your pick. Tires, you're gonna go through so many tires on the dump trucks every year. We can't manage that.
- We don't know how much snow is going to fall. So we don't know what our overtime rate is going to be. We don't know what a lot of these things are going to be. So I don't know what to say, guys. It is what it is. If we can annex our way out of the bank, let's do that. If we can growth our way out of the bank, let's do that. If any of you guys got ideas, let's hear them. But it's got to be a four or five year plan. It can't just be a one and done. Because one and done is not even going to get us to the end of this.
- You know, we're looking at 28, staring at the rear end going, what do we do now? And what happens if it continues in 29 and 30? Because that $2 million we have left in general fund at the end of 28 is going to wind up being much more than that. I'm going to step off for a minute. Because, I mean, there's a good chance the circuit breaker caps are just going to keep increasing. I mean, we don't know.
- Are there, and I don't know if this is a Darla question, but maybe Jimmy would know, are there any ordinances that we could raise fines or something where the police could get more money from doing their job? To that level, I don't think so. We get a very little amount. I think we have to be substantial, yeah. We get a very small amount back for the citations that we write. We get very minimal funding for the
- permits that we give out, you know, so just, it doesn't amount to anything compared to what we need. And I don't think, I know on like tickets, I don't think we have any statutory control over those rates, do we? Speeding tickets or? Yeah, it's counting. They just send us a check once a year or twice a year, I think. About 12 bucks. Yeah, it's not much, yeah. In 27, I think,
- That's when we start preparing for 28 29 and 30 and and Earmarking how we're going to make the cuts that are going to be necessary to not start seriously digging into our Funds that we have built up now so Fire department don't get me wrong. The blue trucks will be there somebody calls and needs help
- there just might be two people on the truck instead of four. It might take a few minutes longer to get there because they're coming from the other station. So we're going to be there. People call for help. We'll take care of it. That's not a problem. Yeah. Really, we haven't. I know that the police were. We're not filling one position,
- compared to the 2025 budget, full FTEs, how you calculate employees, are we down the same or up? Do you know? Yeah. We've been down one since May. Okay. The question is, is the staffing levels, how much have they changed over the last three years? Correct. I mean, so I mean, if we had just 20 full-time equivalent FTEs
- and 25 approved for the budget, are we now one less? Because I know that there was one that we added extra after the budget, I thought, this year that wasn't budgeted. Was that correct, Noel? No, that was a, we hired one that was over budget, but that didn't last but about a month. Okay. And it was, the fellow was gone, he didn't stay long. Okay, so that one, okay, so we're- We've been staffed
- Ever since I've been here, anywhere over nine road officers. And three agent, is it correct if I'm wrong, three are SRO positions. So school corporation is helping with that. Now we're going two and half this hour on the third. Two and a half. Right. OK. Kip, when I'm looking at, we haven't talked about the wheel tax, and that's coming up later tonight.
- You know, that hasn't been voted on. If that is approved, does that funnel towards local road and street, or is that MVH restricted when I'm looking at these future budgets? Because I'm seeing red on both lines. I'm just trying to figure out where that would go.
- Wheel tax and surtax will have to be deposited in two separate funds, a wheel tax and a surtax fund, but the monies can be used for anything that Motor Vehicle Highway can currently be used for, not restricted. Unrestricted. Yep. And to be clear, we have to pass one to be eligible to receive community crossing grants. So without that passage, we'd have a ripple effect that would be, I'll just say it, catastrophic. Yeah.
- Not sure what catastrophic means anymore, so. Worst than this. Catastrophic. Paige, do you have any inkling at all about what the legislature is looking at doing? Not at all. OK. I hate to even guess. Again, we're probably not going to be the loudest voice yelling about this. All right. Where do you want to go from here?
- Well, I want to thank Paige and Brandon for all the work they've done. They've been in constant contact with Noel and Amber and been kind of leading us towards this. It's a terrible thing to be led to. But really, thank you for your help. Baker Tilley's, we couldn't have done it without him. So thank you for coming all the way down here. Scott, one thing that's not in this budget
- that I think we really need to have a conversation with tonight, see if it can be added to it, is some type of raise for the employees. We had, I mean, we could talk percentages, but sometimes that can just cause more, let's say a $5,000 yearly raise, I'm just throwing numbers out there, I'm not saying.
- you're not talking, you're adding also all the other things, unemployment insurance, social security insurance, so it's a lot more than that. So I'm thinking how much would it impact this budget if we gave each employee a $750 bonus so it's not tied into the yearly wage and we can evaluate it each year during the struggle time, but that way we're still investing a little into them.
- Well, why don't we put that on the burner for a minute and let's talk about what our health insurance increases are. Because I don't know what they are necessarily yet. Because last we had spoken, we were just getting the bids back. And until we can kind of see what our outflow is. One or the other. You know, you just having a small raise and find out that. I'm all for doing the raise. Let's just find out how much we're in the hole first. Well, I always have to keep it simple.
- I think what I think we're going to see an increase of $240,000 to our health insurance and So we Had them We had Jay set us up to where we the town takes the hit and ensured that open intended that
- the employees did not see a raise in their premium. So when we talked before, and we talked about maybe even a 1% raise to cover their health insurance premium increase, that's where that money went. And so for the first time since 1998, I'd recommend that we not have any kind of raise.
- First time. Usually, I'm usually trying to protect myself when I ask for raises for employees because every year we fought for this, that, and the other, but this year we need to survive to fight another day, and so I would not recommend it. Quick question, if I may, so I can wrap my head around this. A $240,000 increase
- in what we're paying for insurance. How many employees do we have on insurance? Or how many employees plus family members do we have on insurance? Morad, do you know how many employees we have? Yeah, I think it is about 13 plus 7. So we have 46 employees. So 46 employees and their dependents on?
- It varies, there's 13 on single, and then we have single and spouse, single and children, and family. But there's 46 total that we're insuring, or it's 46 employees. 46 employees. That are covered under the general fund? It spreads out, so whatever the employee is paid from in that fund, that's where their health insurance is housed also. So we have some in lit,
- We have some and let you D We also have employees that are kind of situated over here with utilities How many non-utility employees are we do we have on some general fund employees or PS led or anybody like that? I don't That's kind of what it was yeah, but but it was better that are not a rate payer I
- Right, they're not rate payer funded so because again, I mean utility guys We have nine or ten and then their families where I'm going with this guys is right now Just doing a quick math work fifty six hundred dollars an employee that insurance went up Okay, we had IU health right for four or five years we had a really good health insurance package or good as we could expect and
- And we literally was paying to drive a Chevette, and we was actually driving a Cadillac, maybe not a Cadillac. But anyway, and it never went up for three, four, it was four or five years. So in 21, we switched from Anthem to Eye Health, and these are also the last two pages of your packet about the health insurance. And then at 23,
- IU Health only increased 4%, but we got a rate lock in 24 and 25. We were very fortunate to get that rate lock. When Anthem purchased IU Health, we are seeing the drive-in rates with Anthem underwriting us. So if you'll look on the second to last page of your budget packet, it has our current rates that we're paying through IU Health.
- Option one is Anthem, where it keeps almost the same type of package that we have or benefits for the employee. And then option two is United, and then option three is the AIM Medical Trust. So you can see the price differentials in there. Is there a back page to this? Oh, okay. And just so you'll know,
- Next year, we think that the employees will have to take on a premium increase, because it's going to go up about the same amount or more next year. Initially, Anthem was going to not spread the increase over multiple years. They were going to give us it all in one year, and that was too big of a hit for us to absorb in one year. So our brokers,
- negotiated with Anthem to see if they could break it up. Because Anthem was the best option is when you priced out United and the different medical plans. Cyho would not even quote us. Why is that? I could not tell you, but our brokers told us in the meeting that we had last Monday that they would not quote us. Who wouldn't quote us? Cyho. Okay. So is IU out of this, the insurance business? Yes, correct. Okay. Currently.
- So as this currently sets with the 240 increase, are the employees taking on any increase to their? Not this year, but they can expect one next year. I don't think it'll be severe, but there will be an increase. And is that in the budget numbers as the insurance increase? We'll project it, obviously, factored into these numbers here. The first one is 2026. OK.
- And does this maintain the same standards as the plan we've been offering for the employees? Or are there substantial cuts? Yeah, we thought that was important. One of the main focuses on that option one keeps the preventative RX plan. So that includes a lot of preventative medications that are at zero cost to the employees. So this here, to keep it simple, the raise is in the protection we give them
- for a premium increase. So we stay with option one, option five. Because under option one, you see two other plans. One's high deductible, right? Correct. And the PPO. OK. So they've got the option then? Yes.
- a financial study to see if it would be feasible to take the PPO plan away, it made no difference in the cost, surprisingly. No, but some of the drugs take a pretty sizable increase. Their payout. Okay. Nothing we knew about it, so we are where we are. We are. How much would it impact the budget if we did
- The employees they're not we can explain to her blue in the face. There's just something emotionally at a gut level Not getting any pay increase even if it's just even if we I legitimately know we're eating the cost for this I get that But there's something psychologically if you don't get anything It it can work against us and then we're having to play catch-up for years well
- Being a business man. Sometimes you do not want to let emotion get in the way of business. And the business here is to survive and protect what we have as long as we can. And you know, I said we're not gonna hope or maybe any of this this year.
- So I'm not going to say anything about what maybe will happen in the future. But right now, we need to keep it tight. And I've always been the one that took the hit for let's ready shoot aim. And I think I've won against Paige a couple of times with what she was thinking. But I am totally in sync with keep it tight this year. So I don't.
- You know, the greatest, the best part of this, we don't have to lay anybody off. Right. But that's why I'm thinking of a one-time bonus, because we don't have those extra costs added to that. And then each year, depending on our financial picture, we can decide to make that a permanent thing or to, it's not, so next year we're not starting with their salaries $750 higher. We're still starting it.
- This. And if our financial picture improves, if we've had growth, then we can make that permanent, we can do something. I would take the board's lead on this. I mean, I'm not set on the amount of 750, if we can just do something. I mean, I just think it, I don't want us to be in a situation three to five years from now saying our employees didn't get raises, we didn't do anything, and now we gotta give them X amount that now we're,
- just to keep them because the problem though is that if you're not adding to their base salary, which this plan again, I think is bad at all. It doesn't add to the base salary. At some point we are going to be where we were having to give her by $10,000 raises just to bring them up to where everybody else may or may not be at that time because the $750 hit, even if it's 10 years in a row, didn't give them $7,500 more on their paycheck. Understand that, you know, so they're all still starting at 50.
- you know, whatever we're picking, just picking a number. I mean, I would love to be able to say add 750 or 100,000 to everybody's. I mean, that would be the way to go. I think if we're going to do that, I would rather kind of wait and see where we are mid-year, because if it's a one-time gift, okay, our intent is to potentially look at doing something toward the end of next year, depending on where our cash balance is and where the legislature has taken us.
- Because I can't believe, and again, maybe this is just me being me, I cannot believe that we are anywhere close to some of these communities who are already nearing the red with what we had before and are now going to be completely underwater with insurance, without insurance, whatever the legislature is going to have to do something. I agree. And that's why I guess the way I look at it, again,
- don't focus on the amount, I'm just saying 750, we give them 750 this year, and then maybe mid-year, we say, look, when we're doing budgets next year, we've seen it's a better outlook, we can do more, then we make that part of their salary, and then have that conversation. Let's just say, so we know what our costs are right now, and a lot of those costs are, for the most part, fixed costs, what we're going into, until all of a sudden we have to come up with
- $200,000 for a roof or we have to come up with and that's not even it because we can we can play with that as far as extending our payments But all of a sudden jump gas jumps to $4 a gallon We still gotta have the patrols. We still gonna have the work done. We still get out whatever else done There's just no way to calculate where we're going to be in June July next year. It could be a lot better It could be a lot worse. And if it's a lot worse, then we have to make the decision that We can't give them the bonus the next year
- We're going to have additional costs year in and year out for the next two or four years. We're not talking about right now. That's going to happen. I mean, we're a growing town. We have needs. We're in the middle of a couple of capital projects right now that aren't finished. But our growth should take place with the revenue we need. If we're growing properly,
- We should be getting the revenue in. Well, I think we just went to your presentation, so that's not going to happen. Look at page 2028 budget. I saw there'll be a half a million dollars in the red. Half a million. Boy, how many years do you think we can take that? We can't. OK. Well, and again, that's kind of where I'm going with it. Can we even happen to be this guy? And me too. Where I'm hesitant to say we're going to give her by $750, and realistically not knowing, can we afford that?
- because we don't know what all the other ancillary costs are gonna be. We don't know what the next year's insurance is gonna be. I mean, it sounds great on the surface, but when we come down to it, okay, everybody gets $750, or we made a mistake, you, you and you, you just got laid off. Yeah. And, William, to your sentiment, year in, year out, we have to take care of our employees. Oh, absolutely. We've had some good raises, you've always supported them, and we've got us to this point,
- where you might say we're in decent shape. And so I think the rank and file understand where we're at. And I think that once the dust settles from this meeting tonight and we kind of move forward, then there'll be a time when we get together with the crews.
- the town of Ellsville. Yeah, or more actually. Yeah, that would qualify for this is an example. Well, there's an on even if their utilities utilities have a budget that separate that doesn't affect our general fund. No, I understand that. But if we're giving raises, I'm sure they would have to. But doesn't affect our general fund. We're talking about here. Okay, so. Or yes, right. Because utilities honestly can
- to help out a little bit their employees where we're limited on our pool of employees. So would it be part-time employees too or just full-time employees? Because I would- I'd say FTEs, full-time equivalents. So that's 56 employees. And I only included, I wouldn't have to take all of the street department's employees out of MVH because they are split three ways and my office is split three ways. So the impact
- on our main funds would not be whatever number you decided times 56. There would be a percentage adjustment. Excuse your number too good. All 56 takes the full, that's 42,000. How about we split the baby on this instead of doing it now, we come back mid-year to see if we can do a year-end bonus. That's my point. Let's wait until we get mid-year, see where we're at. That way we have a look at 26 or 27.
- We know what's coming, maybe we can afford it, maybe we can't, maybe we can do better on it, maybe we can't. But I also don't want to have to look somebody's face and go, I'm sorry, but come one January, you're laid off, because we don't have it. Well, $42,000, if we have to lay someone off over that, we've really... We could get close, we've been there before. Oh, absolutely, I know that. But I don't think that's... In 27's budget, we will be preparing for just that in 28.
- or 29? Well, no, I absolutely agree. But I don't want to be this guy arguing against it. I want to be the guy arguing for this. You know, same as I'm sure that Mike and all the supervisors are. The problem is with that looming not knowing what's coming at us in the next literally 14 months, again, some people in a different city with a different job function did something catastrophically stupid, and we're all paying for it. And we're paying for it. Now, I guess I'm looking at the total dollar amount.
- And I'm not seeing $42,000, which what was our budget, 4 point something million? Yes. So 1% of our budget. When I did explore this option in case the council did decide to ask where we would be able to readily take money for a
- one-time payment for the employees. The lit ED fund would be the fund for the recommendation after talking with Baker Tilley to make that one-time payment. I wouldn't even do a one-time payment. I'd spread it out over 26. 30 bucks a pay? Yeah. Which they won't notice at all. It's more of, again, it's, but if Mike and the supervisors, let me ask you guys.
- Will your employees understand if they don't have a raise that we're subsidizing the healthcare costs? Will that make them happy or will they be saying, blank Ellisville, they can't even afford to give us a raise, but they can do X, Y, and Z? Because. I'd be more than happy to show them the cost of the insurance. The logic doesn't always work over emotions though. Business. I get that. I appreciate what you're saying. But that argument. I'd rather have the fireman than
- I get you, that argument was made and failed the last three budget sessions. So to be consistent, I mean. Let me walk it back for you just a second. Again, I hate being the guy arguing. No, I don't think you are. I mean, we're both trying to make sure we have a responsible budget. If we split this up over 26, that's essentially $30 a pay. Right. By the time you do taxes, the time you do whatever else, they're getting $11, $12. If we want to do this and if we can afford it, that's a December drop.
- and maybe they get 500 out of it, that's more Christmas under the tree. That's more Hanukkah, that's more whatever else. $30 split up over 26 pays is not more of anything other than maybe a McDonald's drive. They may see 10 bucks. Right. I do agree with that. And I have no problem doing it that way, what you discussed.
- I just don't understand the hand-wringing over $42,000 is what I'm saying. We've spent more than $42,000 on a project without even blinking. We will again this year. You guys are forgetting something. So what was it? Last week, somebody had to wait for an ambulance for 43 minutes locally here. 43 minutes. So we had before SB1 was hatched,
- We had an idea that we was gonna start a paramedic program and we were about $53,000 off. I mean, that's the money, that's a hit we'd take on our general fund every year to make it happen. I think I'm right, right? Something like, something like 50, call it 50. So we cut that too. So- That's every year. This is one year. And then we'll adjust again.
- Well, how about how about we do this? This is going to be a circle argument tonight. Well, I don't think I have the votes to push. Well, no, no, I don't think you don't have the votes. But what I'm saying is for it, I'm against it. How about how about we evaluate this come one July or the beginning of next year's budget cycle like we are now and look at and go, yeah, we can afford seven or fifty thousand this year because it doesn't impact because then we're going to see what's behind the curtain.
- Right. For 27. I'm okay with that. I just... But you can't promise. You just got to say, guys, we're going to look at it at the beginning of next budget cycle. And if we can afford it, our intent is to provide $500 to $750 to $1,000 as a bonus. Right. Depending upon how bad things get in 27. Now, the good thing there is we'll have a partial look at what did gas cost us? What did consumables cost us? What did those miscellaneous things that pop up every year cost us this year?
- So we may have some surplus that we can go, you know what, we're okay, let's do this. We do a lot of additional appropriations throughout the year for this or that. And I think we'll have to be extremely careful next year, because I mean, I'm just putting myself, like when I rail about taxes, I put myself in the mind of the taxpayer, which I am, but I'm also putting myself in the mind of the employee. They know 42,000 is all in, but if we spend unbudgeted,
- $50,000, $60,000 on something. They're going to be like, wait a second, you found $50,000, $60,000 for this. That's going to happen over and over. And that's my problem with all of this is I'm going to have to come from now on when I think the town needs this or that and the other, and it's going to cost $30,000 or $120,000. That's going to happen in the next three or four years. It always happens in a town like this, especially one that's
- growing the way it is, and if we're gonna stay ahead of that, if we're gonna try to keep promoting that, we're gonna need money. I mean, it takes money to run a town like this. So that's gonna happen, I promise. I'll be up here hat in hand saying, yeah, I know we couldn't give a raise, but we need this money to make Ellits Hill grow, and maybe someday when the clouds part will be set up,
- for the future, I expect another building boom that'll even eclipse anything that's happened up till now. I expect it. And we need to be positioned to be the town to come to and experience that building boom in. And so we just, I mean, I'm for whatever you do. I'll not say another word. Again, it just gives us, if we wait, it gives us a look at what we didn't expect.
- in the next eight months, next 10 months, really, because we're here in August. You know, and then we have a better position knowing what 27 and maybe 28 is. What were our consumables? You know, what did they turn back at the end of this year? Because we have no idea what that's going to be before four months out. So that may go, yeah, you're right, we did pretty well in those turnbacks. Or no, we had unexpected expenses in these areas. We didn't do so good. You know, we have always traditionally had the various departments have a portion of their funds come back to us. We know that.
- But there's also been times where we've had to do special appropriations because one group did better than the other group because the other group got hit hard with repairs, this, this, this, this, or this. And that's kind of where we're at here. We wanna do this, but let's see if we get the money for it. I completely understand your point that you're not saying they don't deserve it. No, we know. Heck, if we had the money, I'm sure we'd be talking about how much instead of,
- Whether you're doing it. We got a lot of heat when we gave a $10,000 raise a couple years ago. There was a reason we did that, because we could afford it. We could look forward in our crystal ball and say we can manage this over the next number of years. We just didn't know the crystal ball get a crack in it. Well, but even then we can still manage that. But if we gone back and said, maybe we do 3000, 3000, 3003 maybe, but it wouldn't have the same effect as the $10,000 raise when we could give it.
- We did it partially because we could afford it. But we did it to keep somewhat of a competitive edge so we didn't have brain drain and having people leaving here and using us as a stepping stone. And so once again, we were trying to protect the herd by giving that raise. I mean, it was strategic at the time. And then a year and a half later, everybody was doing it. And keep in mind, we have some debt service that's going to come off the books here pretty quick.
- We have some other things that are coming up that should have more money back into the coffers so we can take a little bit better look. And that's the problem with doing, and not the problem, because you have to legally do the year budget. Right. We've been better off doing a six-month budget than just a six-month budget, but that's just not how the world works. Right. No, I get it. I think I've said my piece on this, so I mean, no need to be the dead horse. You understand where I'm from, and I completely understand. I appreciate it, too, and I really do. If I may also, speaking with the
- the public works, you know, I'm chiming with the fire chief. At the end of the day, I'd rather have the guys here than, you know, not have the raise and be able to keep the guys here working and have the people here working. I've been here long enough that I've been involved with the minimal raise increases and, you know, I still got, I mean, even though my kids are grown, I still help take care of them.
- I want to be sure that I still have a job here and in that route. So I just recommend even a race that would jeopardize some of them. Oh, I totally understand that. But thank you, though. Okay, I will say one other thing in this vein. So we have three people that we haven't replaced in DPW.
- And it was a conscious decision, the first two, not to replace them. We're still trying to get used to our rate increases in water and sewer, and they haven't caught up to us yet.
- And so we did that as a business decision, but we've now had a third person leave. And so we are going to be replacing them. So everybody in the room, you'll see a posting of it. That replaced that. It's a different pot of money. It's from the rate payer, not the general fund. But I just thought I'd bring it out and put it out in the open so nobody says, well, they just told us they're not gonna replace anybody, but that's not what we said. The safety officers, ironically,
- Those are the ones that are affected by all this, whereas the rate payers weren't in pretty good shape there. And at least one out of three we can replace, and we're going to do that. I just want to make sure everybody knew that was happening. Just a quick comment, if I can. I haven't done the math this year, but I've done it years past. So that the public understands, and some of the employees that don't have to put the budget together, traditionally, Ellensville's budget may be 4% to 5% discretionary spending, and that's it.
- So that's all there is. So out of this, whatever our budget, $4 million, $6 million, $8 million, take 4% of that. That's where we have choices of it. You can spend it here, here, here, here, and here. There's other things that are not discretionary, payroll, retirement, social security, other things that just have to be paid first, and Ellsville runs on such a fine line, as do most cities and towns,
- You know, our ability to set up here, well, we'll cut from this and go to that. You can't cut because you're only at 4%. There's not 4% to cut anywhere. So again, I would, when people bring up, well, you're doing it out of this line because that's a non-discretionary line and it has to go there. So raises, unfortunately, are discretionary. You know, some of our purchases are discretionary and I think they've done a wonderful job of pulling those back. But our mandatory ones, we have no control over that. We have to pay it whether,
- I don't know who would know this, but again, I'm hitting back for FTEs. From the 2025 budget, Jimmy is losing one. Kevin, Hal, from the 2025 budget to the 26, how many FTE differences? Is it flat? Do you still have the same? Okay, or decreases? Okay. Kip, yours is a little different because you're-
- Right. But you have increased. And Denise, what about you? From. Yeah, so we're going to replace that one. We'll be down to the end of the year.
- Denise increased half the one. I share half the utilities for a full time. To be transparent, general fund has three on the base, a third on each one was two employees. So you're really down two thirds of an employee, right? Not two employees. That's true. Increased from around 2025. How are we funding that increase?
- I know half is being paid to someone else, but still half's got to come out from. I think she increased this year, not next year. Correct. So 24 and 25, they're already present. No, that's not. The 25 budget that we're working on currently. 26 budget. Yeah, no, no. The 20 that we're working on and voting on and paying money from. That's in effect. Yes. Yes, that's already taking place. Right. And you're saying there's basically half a person
- extra in this one that we're proposing. This is 26 budget. She's not adding another half person in 26. It's what's already on board right now. She got a half person. And in fact, if I may, in fact, we were going to change that person's house
- how they were paid, where they's paid from to a full time employee for planning. And not unlike a lot of different years where we have to be wily about how we get things. When we realized the budget was in the shape it was, we went back to splitting a person. And so. Then again, to be clear, I'll ask the 2025 budget that's already submitted that we're paying stuff from now. And this one here,
- There's no increase for you. Correct. OK. That's all. I want to make sure we get that, yeah. Because at first you said half, and I was like, wait a second. I'm sorry. No, that's OK. That's OK. It's kind of on the first. Yes. So coming up in the budget, are we anticipating, and again, I understand what you put together, any major projects, any major purchases, or is it just continuing with our normal cycle as we can? Well, I think no.
- answer we are looking at maybe in a change the way we do business around here and it's too early to talk about it now but we are talking about working towards something that might alleviate this a little or a lot and so but other than that no changes I mean even our rolling stock
- It's a freeze on that. We're not buying any more equipment. And luckily we're on the high side of a cycle. Most of our police vehicles are in pretty good shape. Fire department seems to have good working stock and we got a new fire engine coming because of the TIF district. And then DPW, I think we have pretty good. We had just replaced
- our last 20 year dump truck. So we're down to around the 10 year mark right now. So we're good for hopefully a couple more years. And we have an in-house mechanic now, correct? That's helping us a lot. He works every day on something. Would you guys say it's saving you guys some decent amount of money? Yeah, a lot of our, obviously there's some things he's not able to work on, but the majority of them he can for us.
- So instead of paying anywhere from 190 to 225 an hour, as in 100, I'm pretty sure Cody doesn't make anywhere near that. So it's definitely saving us money on the- I heard this right now. I was like, wait a second. Yeah. The only thing we're looking at is we are looking at replacing a 99 fire truck, but the township trustee takes care of that.
- That's something we're gonna try to order late this year or next year, but like I said, he covers that through CB&E line. Out of compliance with the contract. Correct, yes, it'll be through the contract. Gotcha. And the reason why we're looking at doing that so early is we're looking at a three to four year delivery date on those. Yep. All right, Jim Eames. Yes, if they're ready to order the child, we're starting to have
- I mean, I understand every mechanic has limits of their knowledge, so it doesn't mean we're not gonna have to take vehicles somewhere, but. It's like the public to know that, you know, we've taken steps as a town and our supervisors
- well before this came on the radar to those little costs that's every day that has to be done. So I just want to tell you guys, I know it's rough for you, and I get it, but thank you. Thank you for everything you've done. Where do we go? I'm done. Thanks again, Baker Tilly. I guess I probably quit by now. We didn't have enough.
- Okay, so let's talk next steps with budget. You got, do you wanna roll out the dates? Yes. So if there's no major changes that the council would like to make tonight, I can. We can make. We'd like to make a lot, but we can't.
- Always like to ask before I assume anything I will Double-check there. I did want to let the council's members know I will be Sending you an updated one. It's nothing major on the board
- Payments we have those currently listed as $50. There was some talk about increasing that a little bit So I'm just putting it in there just in case so we don't have to Do an additional appropriation for that because we keep that line exactly what we pay out of it A meeting for all the boards except the town board and you have to be here to get paid and is there a way that
- Honestly, I don't feel that council members should double dip in boards. There's a way we can eliminate that, that if you're getting paid from the council, you don't get paid for serving on another board. I don't know what to say about that. You said there is a way to do that? Sure. I mean, you can. If you have a suggestion called Darla, she'd put together an ordinance. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, we're getting paid pretty well for being council members, and we're all doing, we all have to do something.
- Just like the public, no, we're not getting any raises either. But I just think that that double dipping, we don't do it on the RDC. I mean, the statute kind of prevents that, but I think that's a philosophy. You probably shouldn't. Part of your job, Animal Control Board, I serve on that. I don't get paid, never asked, don't want to. It's part of me being a servant to the public. So I think that should be for all council members. So going back to the calendar, if I may.
- I would place the notice for the published budget on Friday, August the 29th. That would put the first public hearing to be heard Monday, September the 8th at the first council meeting and then final adoption on Monday, September the 22nd.
- I don't know that we can because of the way timing works that we have to have it done into the state. So the earliest that I could do it, and that would be if I did it tonight, which I have no problem doing that, but then it would be an offset of your regularly scheduled meetings, which we just have to have it published 10 days before the first public hearing. Can we get the bump up on these? Absolutely, if you guys want to. So I can get that in because that, if you'll notice on there,
- The adopted is already filled in. So it won't take that long. I like to sleep and things happen. So let's bump it up so we can get it done. Okay. Can we get this? Yes. Are we talking about the September 8th meeting or the September 22nd meeting that you're unavailable for?
- I'm seeing if it's possible to bump it up one week. Put it in the week of the 15th. It would not be because there's not enough time between the public hearing and the adoption. You could, however, bump it back. You have until the end of October to actually do all of this. So you could keep the September 8th meeting where it is and then move your adoption back a week or two. It wouldn't matter. Does that impact at all?
- the likelihood of us successfully getting a levy appeal? No, I mean, the levy appeal has to be submitted to the state by October 19th, but it's kind of a separate situation. We just need to make sure that the council approves the petition to levy appeal before October 19th. But yeah, that's kind of a separate track. Let me ask this to Noelle. What's the next meeting date after the 22nd? That would be October the 13th.
- Oh, yeah, that's right. It's not. I'm going to go 13. Yeah, that's fine. As long as it's not one of the town's holidays where the employees are off. So can we still do first reading the eighth? Second reading will now be October 13th. There's no issue with the gap in that.
- No, I just need to go in and when I publish it, I need to change the date. And if approved, again, like you said, I would just worry that, you know, for one of the last ones to submit the budget, they're going to be like, well, we'll figure out your levy appeal sometime next year. No, they have to make a determination before the end of the year. OK, awesome. What other business do we have for the work session?
- Anyone? Baker Tilly. Okay, we'll be in recess until the 630 meeting.