WEBVTT 00:00:08.098 --> 00:00:16.136 - Good afternoon. Welcome to the Bloomington Rotary Club's weekly celebration of service. I'm Steve Wicks, 00:00:16.136 --> 00:00:24.175 - and I'm honored to serve as your president this year. Please silence your electronic devices. So today's 00:00:24.175 --> 00:00:32.596 - program will touch on a number of themes. We'll start with the sad, move to the serious, move to celebratory, 00:00:32.596 --> 00:00:37.342 - and then finally, most of the hour will be spent with thought 00:00:38.082 --> 00:00:45.997 - with a thought provoking. So I'll start by announcing, as almost all of you know, that last week our 00:00:45.997 --> 00:00:53.441 - longtime member, Charlotte Zitlow, passed away. We will have a short tribute to her next week. 00:00:53.441 --> 00:00:59.710 - But for today, if we could just have a moment of silence for Charlotte, please. 00:01:12.994 --> 00:01:21.596 - Thank you very much. If you would all stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, and when we're done, veterans, 00:01:21.596 --> 00:01:29.953 - when we're done, veterans, please remain standing. I pledge allegiance to the flag, the United States 00:01:29.953 --> 00:01:38.310 - of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty 00:01:38.310 --> 00:01:40.030 - and justice for all. 00:01:41.090 --> 00:02:03.209 - And once again, would veterans please remain standing? Do we have any veterans on Zoom? No. So veterans, 00:02:03.209 --> 00:02:09.950 - thank you all for your service. 00:02:12.258 --> 00:02:24.026 - for club members. If you get a chance today and as a veteran, as a friend, family member, please thank 00:02:24.026 --> 00:02:35.451 - them for their service. Can we have a round of applause for our veterans? Thank you. On this day in 00:02:35.451 --> 00:02:38.878 - history, November 11th, 1918, 00:02:39.362 --> 00:02:47.408 - The Armistice Agreement was signed, formally ending World War I, known at that time as the War to End 00:02:47.408 --> 00:02:55.296 - All Wars. Three years later, on November 11, 1921, the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier was dedicated at 00:02:55.296 --> 00:03:01.054 - Arlington National Cemetery. David Wright will share today's reflection. 00:03:13.698 --> 00:03:26.496 - So I'm five years old and I'm at the State Museum with my grandfather for two and a half hours. And 00:03:26.496 --> 00:03:40.190 - he's reading every single placard in every single exhibit with slow contemplative demeanor. He's embodying 00:03:40.190 --> 00:03:43.134 - the wisdom of Socrates 00:03:44.418 --> 00:03:53.498 - be slow to speak, and only after reflection. Once home, we're playing a game of chess, and 00:03:53.498 --> 00:04:03.576 - he is contemplating every move forever. And I have no choice but to do the same. Later, he's reading 00:04:03.576 --> 00:04:13.854 - the paper cover to cover, a book from beginning to end. And you guessed it, as a little five-year-old, 00:04:14.402 --> 00:04:23.495 - With no TV and no devices, I have no choice but to do the same. Because of my grandfather, I became 00:04:23.495 --> 00:04:32.589 - a voracious reader. And because of my grandfather, contemplation became a part of who I am. My only 00:04:32.589 --> 00:04:42.046 - regret is that I never got to share the wisdom with him of the knowledge he gained from all those books 00:04:42.046 --> 00:04:43.774 - he read every day. 00:04:44.770 --> 00:04:52.822 - from all the articles and contemplations he had, because he was the strong, silent type. But I was always 00:04:52.822 --> 00:05:00.417 - proud of him, and he is an important part of my history. And it is because of my grandfather that I 00:05:00.417 --> 00:05:08.241 - now feel like a stranger in a strange land. News articles and books have been replaced by short videos 00:05:08.241 --> 00:05:13.406 - and blogs. Those have been replaced by TikToks and tweets. And now, 00:05:13.858 --> 00:05:23.594 - Those have been replaced by five word memes and emojis. It seems like our civil discourse is becoming 00:05:23.594 --> 00:05:33.330 - less and less contemplative every day. And it seems like there's not any time left for discussing the 00:05:33.330 --> 00:05:42.302 - why behind the what. And when that happens, sometimes our society forgets the why altogether. 00:05:43.938 --> 00:05:51.493 - It's happened over time. Today is a good example. The purpose of Veterans Day has been slowly forgotten. 00:05:51.493 --> 00:05:58.760 - Well, the second half of it. Here's a quote from one of the presidential proclamations a while back. 00:05:58.760 --> 00:06:06.170 - Quote, to acknowledge the respect and admiration we have for our veterans, the Congress has designated 00:06:06.170 --> 00:06:12.286 - November 11th to be a legal holiday to be known as Veterans Day and has dedicated it 00:06:12.642 --> 00:06:20.246 - to the cause of world peace. For a while, I thought that was way back when, because it got passed in 00:06:20.246 --> 00:06:28.076 - 1938. But this quote is from Richard Nixon, of all people, in 1970. But then over the last few decades, 00:06:28.076 --> 00:06:35.981 - that kind of why behind the what kind of faded away. We remembered the fight, but are starting to forget 00:06:35.981 --> 00:06:38.014 - what we were fighting for. 00:06:41.634 --> 00:06:50.354 - And today's topic serves as a similar reminder about the importance of the why behind the what. We're 00:06:50.354 --> 00:06:58.903 - about to discuss how freedom of speech is under siege. Like Veterans Day, it too has its own deeper 00:06:58.903 --> 00:07:07.537 - purpose, the search for truth and accountability. But that purpose becomes clouded if we do not work 00:07:07.537 --> 00:07:08.734 - to act on it. 00:07:09.858 --> 00:07:17.760 - If we do not realize that we are the ones who are supposed to be speaking, if we, the principled leaders 00:07:17.760 --> 00:07:25.286 - of our community, do not promote our ideals, call out transgressions, and pass on our knowledge and 00:07:25.286 --> 00:07:33.038 - wisdom for the next generation, then our silence becomes a self-imposed threat to free speech as well, 00:07:33.038 --> 00:07:39.134 - simply leaving more room for those who sow deception, prejudice, and ill intent. 00:07:41.634 --> 00:07:49.415 - So in honor of my grandfather and his gift of contemplation, and in honor of our guest speaker today, 00:07:49.415 --> 00:07:57.349 - Professor Sanders and others like him who worked to defend our right to speak, I offer this reflection. 00:07:57.349 --> 00:08:05.054 - We all also have the right to remain silent. But I'm beginning to believe that remaining silent just 00:08:05.054 --> 00:08:06.046 - isn't right. 00:08:17.890 --> 00:08:36.742 - Thank you, David. Peggy Frisbee will introduce our guest today. Good afternoon. I'm here to introduce 00:08:36.742 --> 00:08:47.646 - our guests of today. And when I announce your name, guess, 00:08:48.258 --> 00:09:01.722 - Please stand so that we can welcome you. First, Shane Gibson, a guest of Jim Bright. Shane is engaged 00:09:01.722 --> 00:09:15.450 - in real estate. Next is Jim Roddenbush, also a guest of Jim Bright, who says he's in academia. And then 00:09:15.450 --> 00:09:17.694 - Daniel Schlegel. 00:09:17.986 --> 00:09:31.308 - I knew I could do it. Guest of the club and a historian. And then our last guest of today is Jalen Gitanj. 00:09:31.308 --> 00:09:44.007 - I'm not sure if I pronounced that correctly. Guest of Peyton Flynn. Do we have any guests online? Hi, 00:09:44.007 --> 00:09:46.622 - Peggy. Hi, everyone. 00:09:47.010 --> 00:09:55.647 - No guests, just rotarians. Well, thank you for coming today. And if you have any questions about Rotary, 00:09:55.647 --> 00:10:04.038 - please ask anyone at your table or anyone in the room. OK, thank you. Thank you, Peggy. We have three 00:10:04.038 --> 00:10:12.511 - Rotary birthdays to celebrate today. On the 14th, Trent Deckard. On the 16th, Lydia Potter. And on the 00:10:12.511 --> 00:10:14.238 - 17th, Katie Cernyak. 00:10:15.522 --> 00:10:23.692 - Also, we have anniversaries to observe. Tomorrow on the 12th, both Don and Carol Ann Hustler, one year. 00:10:23.692 --> 00:10:31.547 - On the 16th, our greeter for today, Ruth Boschkoff, four years. And on the 17th, past President Jim 00:10:31.547 --> 00:10:33.118 - Cryweigh, 37 years. 00:10:43.618 --> 00:10:50.640 - Announcements make sure you're saving the date for the annual club holiday party Scheduled for December 00:10:50.640 --> 00:10:57.528 - 11th at the Bloomington Country Club, and we'll have more details coming up next week Posting for the 00:10:57.528 --> 00:11:04.347 - club executive assistant is still open. We tentatively plan to close this posting on the 15th Rotary 00:11:04.347 --> 00:11:11.302 - global scholarship recipient Noah Jagger wrote a well-written letter to the editor at the Herald Times 00:11:11.302 --> 00:11:13.598 - about Rotary. You haven't read it 00:11:13.858 --> 00:11:20.230 - The link to it hopefully will be in this week's roundabout, or I'm sure you can go into the Herald Times 00:11:20.230 --> 00:11:26.541 - online and find it. As of today, we still need a roundabout reporter for the month of December. Marilyn 00:11:26.541 --> 00:11:32.913 - Wood is sitting at the back of the room. See her if you are interested. Get ready to serve. In the weeks 00:11:32.913 --> 00:11:39.710 - ahead, we'll need club members to help put the finishing touches on our Meals on Wheels District Grant Project. 00:11:40.194 --> 00:11:48.770 - We'll need lots of volunteers for our annual Salvation Army bell ringing. So Meals on Wheels. We need 00:11:48.770 --> 00:11:57.261 - 10 people total. I think Diana Hoffman has five signed up so far. It'll be next week during the week 00:11:57.261 --> 00:12:06.846 - 11 to roughly 1230. And you'll be riding with Meals on Wheels drivers. And you're delivering the rotary sponsored 00:12:06.978 --> 00:12:13.927 - insulated bags to clients. So you won't need to drive. The bags aren't heavy. There isn't any heavy 00:12:13.927 --> 00:12:20.875 - lifting involved. Ten routes. Once again, we have five people signed up. We need five more. And you 00:12:20.875 --> 00:12:28.033 - may choose any day. And then there'll be a follow-up indoor activity with meals and wheels in January. 00:12:28.033 --> 00:12:35.120 - And that will involve filling their freezer. Salvation Army bell ringing. That's one we've done every 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:36.510 - year for some time. 00:12:37.154 --> 00:12:46.617 - We need 26 volunteer slots to fill over three successive Saturdays, November 29th, December 6th, December 00:12:46.617 --> 00:12:55.633 - 13th. There is a sign-up sheet moving between tables. Dave Meyer, Michelle Cohen can help you if you 00:12:55.633 --> 00:13:04.382 - have questions. But typically, there are two-hour shifts. You usually ring with another rotarian. 00:13:04.546 --> 00:13:12.117 - I found it as a great opportunity to get to know other club members. And you just see lots of people 00:13:12.117 --> 00:13:19.763 - in the community, and almost everyone's in a good mood. And it's a really important cause, especially 00:13:19.763 --> 00:13:27.408 - this year when times are tough for a lot of our residents here in Monroe County. Dave? Ah, yes, okay. 00:13:27.408 --> 00:13:33.630 - So it won't be freezing cold, but it will be in that area, and that's a good area. 00:13:34.690 --> 00:13:40.810 - One of our organizational members, Wheeler Mission, they have scheduled a 5K run walk dash for shelter 00:13:40.810 --> 00:13:46.990 - at Carson Farm Park on Saturday, December 6th. Please see me if you'd like additional information. I'll 00:13:46.990 --> 00:13:52.932 - try to get the information in the roundabout. And I'm sure if you don't want to walk or run, they'd 00:13:52.932 --> 00:13:58.874 - appreciate volunteers. Red Cross is also an organizational member. I noticed they're having a blood 00:13:58.874 --> 00:14:01.310 - drive downstairs in the Frangipani room. 00:14:01.922 --> 00:14:09.680 - So after we listen to Steve Sanders, if our blood pressure is really high, might be a chance to go down 00:14:09.680 --> 00:14:17.364 - and relieve some pressure. I'm not sure if that's a medically appropriate procedure. Last, once again, 00:14:17.364 --> 00:14:24.898 - we are members of the Chamber of Commerce. They are members of our organization. Their next business 00:14:24.898 --> 00:14:29.374 - after hours is Thursday, November 13th. That's on Thursday. 00:14:29.986 --> 00:14:40.308 - 530 to 730 at Beltrace Senior Living Community. And now we have a lot of service to celebrate. Tyler, 00:14:40.308 --> 00:14:50.630 - can you put on the? So as raterians, we're called to serve. And once again, it's been two weeks since 00:14:50.630 --> 00:14:56.094 - we've had a regular meeting. So I'll start with Rila. 00:14:56.866 --> 00:15:05.896 - October 31st to November 2nd, about 45 high school students got together at Bradford Woods. On the left, 00:15:05.896 --> 00:15:14.496 - you can see picture of the three young men that we sponsored. One is Rex Hillary's grandson. One is 00:15:14.496 --> 00:15:23.870 - club member Erica Kovacs' son, and then the friend of her son. And then on the right, picture of Joy Harder, 00:15:24.194 --> 00:15:32.497 - Joy spent about five hours on Friday registering everyone. Did a lot of work. So I want to thank those 00:15:32.497 --> 00:15:41.123 - three individuals. Next, celebrate. FutureCast, November 4th. Once again, October was economic development 00:15:41.123 --> 00:15:49.588 - month for Rotary. FutureCast is all about economic development. Here's a picture of Lauren Snyder giving 00:15:49.588 --> 00:15:53.054 - the reflection, and you can see the Rotary 00:15:53.410 --> 00:16:00.214 - four-way test banner right next to it. And Lauren did a really good job. In addition to that, 00:16:00.214 --> 00:16:07.525 - Lauren's firm, Baird Wealth Management, sponsored our club's costs of being a sponsor. And then Kyla 00:16:07.525 --> 00:16:14.184 - Cox-Deckard did all the work behind the scenes putting this together on behalf of our club. 00:16:14.184 --> 00:16:21.567 - So thank you, Lauren and Kyla. Then finally, the Rotary Toast, November 7th. This is our biggest club 00:16:21.567 --> 00:16:22.942 - event of the year. 00:16:23.362 --> 00:16:31.308 - This is where, first of all, it ends up in being a really significant charitable donation for the recipients 00:16:31.308 --> 00:16:39.109 - charity of choice, which this year was the Bloomington North Habitat for Humanity Club. And then secondly, 00:16:39.109 --> 00:16:46.691 - some of the proceeds are used to fund the community services giving for the three Rotary Clubs. So it's 00:16:46.691 --> 00:16:49.534 - a really big deal. It's a lot of work. 00:16:50.082 --> 00:16:57.452 - On the left, you see a picture of some of our club members and members of the other clubs getting the 00:16:57.452 --> 00:17:04.678 - place ready, decorating before the event. Here's a picture on the right of club member Shelly Yoder 00:17:04.678 --> 00:17:11.614 - speaking at the event. So first of all, big, big thank you for Tracy. She took it on this year. 00:17:20.930 --> 00:17:28.375 - in typical Tracy fashion. It's done with a lot of energy, a lot of attention to detail, and it's done 00:17:28.375 --> 00:17:35.967 - well. And we had a sellout. So it was a very, very successful event. And then we had other club members 00:17:35.967 --> 00:17:43.558 - who helped. Alan Barker, Ron Barnes, Jim Bright, Marcus Debrow, Andrea Murray, Lynn Schwartzberg, Heidi 00:17:43.558 --> 00:17:47.646 - Schultz, Shelly Yoder, Charlotte Zitlow, and John Zote. 00:17:49.122 --> 00:17:55.652 - In addition, Jim Bright, Andrew Murray, and Jeff Richardson all purchased tables. And then club members. 00:17:55.652 --> 00:18:01.933 - We had a number of club members who attended future casts and a number of club members who purchased 00:18:01.933 --> 00:18:08.028 - rotary toast tickets. So lots of things to celebrate. And now we'll move to the mystery rotarian. 00:18:08.028 --> 00:18:14.371 - Once again, the rules are, I'll give a clue. If you know the answer, put up your hand. Don't shout it 00:18:14.371 --> 00:18:17.854 - out. If you're online, put up your hand electronically. 00:18:18.978 --> 00:18:28.030 - First clue, a native of Decatur, Illinois, this Rotarian served in the US Army. After finishing military 00:18:28.030 --> 00:18:36.823 - service, this Rotarian used the GI build to earn multiple degrees, including a doctorate from Indiana 00:18:36.823 --> 00:18:44.926 - State. Put up your hand if you know. Second clue, and I'm going to pronounce this word wrong, 00:18:45.442 --> 00:18:54.708 - This Shidokan Karate Second Degree Black Belt currently serves as Executive Director of the IU Department 00:18:54.708 --> 00:19:03.713 - of Mentoring Services and Leadership Development. I see a few more. Okay. Third and final clue. A club 00:19:03.713 --> 00:19:12.542 - member for over four years, this Rotarian currently serves as Chairperson of the Club DEI Committee. 00:19:13.058 --> 00:19:24.918 - and as a member of the District 65 DEI Committee. Put up your hands. Okay, we have a lot more here. 00:19:24.918 --> 00:19:37.370 - And this week's mystery rotarian is Patrick Smith. Patrick has served on the State of Indiana Commission 00:19:37.370 --> 00:19:41.758 - on the Social Status of Black Males, 00:19:42.306 --> 00:19:50.065 - during his military service, served as a member of military intelligence. And in the case of Patrick, 00:19:50.065 --> 00:19:58.128 - military intelligence does go together. Pretty smart guy. And he served in the DMZ region of South Korea, 00:19:58.128 --> 00:20:06.344 - so a hot spot then and still a hot spot. And also in Panama during the Noriega era. So some of you remember 00:20:06.344 --> 00:20:08.702 - that in our country's history. 00:20:09.890 --> 00:20:17.133 - He's been with IU for almost 20 years, and Patrick is part of a power couple. His wife, Dr. 00:20:17.133 --> 00:20:25.400 - Candice Smith, is a lecturer, African American and African Diaspora Studies. So anyway, congratulations, 00:20:25.400 --> 00:20:33.666 - Patrick. Jim Sins and Dakir, you put your hand up about the same time. Did you both have it right? Okay, 00:20:33.666 --> 00:20:36.894 - good job. Joy, did anyone get it online? 00:20:38.082 --> 00:20:46.253 - Other than me with the last slide knowing it was Patrick. Nice to learn about it. We are running a little 00:20:46.253 --> 00:20:54.655 - bit behind. So I'm going to do the Rotary International seven areas of focus. And we've moved into November, 00:20:54.655 --> 00:21:02.441 - which is Rotary Foundation Month. And what I will say is that our happy dollars proceeds in November 00:21:02.441 --> 00:21:06.526 - and December will be given to the Rotary Foundation. 00:21:07.394 --> 00:21:13.045 - I had planned on happy dollars. I don't want to take any time away from our speaker. So Byron, if you 00:21:13.045 --> 00:21:15.870 - can come in and come up and introduce our speaker. 00:21:39.554 --> 00:21:46.588 - The best I recall, our speaker this afternoon was first introduced to me by one of our distinguished 00:21:46.588 --> 00:21:53.692 - former Rotarians, Kent Owen. Kent thought that Steve Sanders was someone I should know and would want 00:21:53.692 --> 00:22:01.284 - to know, and he was right. Some years later, Steve, who served for some years as a member of the Bloomington 00:22:01.284 --> 00:22:08.318 - Human Rights Commission, was instrumental in recruiting me to apply for a vacancy on that commission 00:22:09.282 --> 00:22:16.020 - which led to my appointment by the city's common council and to 20 something years of service on the 00:22:16.020 --> 00:22:22.691 - Human Rights Commission of Bloomington. You may know Steve in various other capacities. He has been 00:22:22.691 --> 00:22:29.428 - an important and articulate public voice in advocating for matters related to constitutional law, as 00:22:29.428 --> 00:22:35.966 - well as human rights, academic freedom, and current threats to our cherished democratic republic. 00:22:37.506 --> 00:22:45.371 - The current degradations to which IU is being subjected have also recently received his focused attention. 00:22:45.371 --> 00:22:52.795 - There may be no one in our community better qualified by virtue of his credentials and experience to 00:22:52.795 --> 00:23:00.145 - warrant this attention. Steve Sanders is Associate Dean for Academic Affairs, Professor of Law, and 00:23:00.145 --> 00:23:07.422 - the Val Nolan Faculty Fellow at the IU Maurer School of Law. His primary teaching and research are 00:23:07.682 --> 00:23:14.543 - Mary is our constitutional law and his work has appeared in major law journals and has been cited in 00:23:14.543 --> 00:23:21.405 - the New Yorker, the Atlantic, the Washington Post, federal district court opinions and briefs to the 00:23:21.405 --> 00:23:28.674 - United States Supreme Court and other federal courts. He is a three time winner of an IU trustees teaching 00:23:28.674 --> 00:23:35.671 - award and is frequently quoted by local and national media about matters of constitutional law and the 00:23:35.671 --> 00:23:36.894 - US Supreme Court. 00:23:37.858 --> 00:23:46.344 - I don't have the title of his address in front of me, but it's something about, does anybody care about 00:23:46.344 --> 00:23:54.667 - human rights? No, about free speech anymore. Steve Sanders. Thank you, Byron. In difference to Steve, 00:23:54.667 --> 00:24:03.480 - I will try not to raise your blood pressure too much. I know you didn't leave emergency contact information 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:05.438 - at the door, and I have 00:24:05.570 --> 00:24:12.541 - appreciated this club ever since, as Byron mentioned, our late mutual friend Kent Owen actually nominated 00:24:12.541 --> 00:24:19.709 - me back in 1992, 1993 for a Rotary exchange program to Brazil. And I just hadn't done a lot of international 00:24:19.709 --> 00:24:26.811 - travel at that point. And that gave me a month in a completely different culture. And I was always grateful 00:24:26.811 --> 00:24:33.716 - to Rotary for giving me that experience. So as Byron said, the title of my talk is, Does Anyone Actually 00:24:33.716 --> 00:24:35.294 - Believe in Free Speech? 00:24:35.426 --> 00:24:42.523 - anymore. We routinely hear politicians and activists on both the left and the right praising free speech 00:24:42.523 --> 00:24:49.890 - and accusing the other side of being against it, but is this sincere commitment or just posturing? Political 00:24:49.890 --> 00:24:56.716 - liberalism has always been identified with a commitment to free speech, but today the political left 00:24:56.716 --> 00:25:03.475 - is dominated not by liberals but by progressives, and evidence suggests many progressives put other 00:25:03.475 --> 00:25:04.894 - political priorities 00:25:04.994 --> 00:25:11.693 - ahead of free speech. For example, the ACLU was once known as a group that gave meaning to the view 00:25:11.693 --> 00:25:18.459 - attributed to the French philosopher Voltaire. I do not agree with a word you say, but I will defend 00:25:18.459 --> 00:25:25.158 - to the death your right to say it. The ACLU, after all, famously defended the right of the Nazis to 00:25:25.158 --> 00:25:27.838 - march in Skokie, Illinois in the 1970s. 00:25:28.130 --> 00:25:34.735 - Yet in recent years, the ACLU has abandoned this approach. Its guidelines on selecting cases for litigation 00:25:34.735 --> 00:25:41.095 - now say the group will consider, quote, the potential effect on marginalized communities and the extent 00:25:41.095 --> 00:25:46.782 - to which speech may assist in advancing the goals of groups which are contrary to our views. 00:25:47.362 --> 00:25:54.884 - Ira Glasser, who led the ACLU from 1978 to 2001, said the new policy was the most fundamental departure 00:25:54.884 --> 00:26:02.333 - from ACLU founding principles you could possibly have. Within my own area of legal academia, Professor 00:26:02.333 --> 00:26:09.566 - Louis Michael Seidman of Georgetown Law School, one of the most prominent people in our profession, 00:26:09.922 --> 00:26:16.461 - has argued that free speech simply cannot be progressive. He says it entrenches dominant voices and 00:26:16.461 --> 00:26:23.197 - too often privileges elites at the expense of the marginalized. Modern progressives, Professor Seidman 00:26:23.197 --> 00:26:29.933 - has said, just can't shake their mindless attraction to the bright flame of our free speech tradition. 00:26:29.933 --> 00:26:36.603 - Progressives need to turn away before they are burned. Well, how about the political right? In recent 00:26:36.603 --> 00:26:39.742 - years, political conservatives contrasted their 00:26:39.970 --> 00:26:46.746 - implied commitments to free speech with the cancel culture on American college campuses and the political 00:26:46.746 --> 00:26:53.330 - left more generally. On his first day in office this year, Donald Trump signed an executive order that 00:26:53.330 --> 00:26:59.850 - it is, quote, the policy of the United States to secure the right of the American people to engage in 00:26:59.850 --> 00:27:06.242 - constitutionally protected speech and to assure that no taxpayer sources are used to facilitate any 00:27:06.242 --> 00:27:09.182 - conduct that would unconstitutionally abridge 00:27:09.378 --> 00:27:16.708 - the free speech of any American citizen. Sounds great, right? But what to make of this as we watched 00:27:16.708 --> 00:27:24.473 - federalized troops deployed to American cities to intimidate and interfere with small and largely peaceful 00:27:24.473 --> 00:27:31.876 - protests. What to make of this as Trump uses unconstitutional assertions of executive power to punish 00:27:31.876 --> 00:27:37.246 - journalists, universities, and law firms for their speech and viewpoints. 00:27:38.530 --> 00:27:45.268 - In 2021, Indiana Attorney General Todd Rokita wrote, quote, the free expression of political beliefs 00:27:45.268 --> 00:27:52.140 - should be encouraged, even if we do not agree with the beliefs. It is this free dialogue, he said, the 00:27:52.140 --> 00:27:58.945 - free exchange of ideas, good and bad, that fosters our self-governance. Yet this is the same attorney 00:27:58.945 --> 00:28:05.950 - general whose noisy public demands got a staff member from Ball State University, Suzanne Swierk, fired. 00:28:06.466 --> 00:28:13.220 - Swierich expressed her political beliefs and exchanged her ideas in the form of a Facebook post about 00:28:13.220 --> 00:28:20.041 - the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Swierich's post was passionately worded. It did not cross any lines 00:28:20.041 --> 00:28:26.663 - of legality. It certainly did not advocate violence, yet Rokita could not abide it. And he used his 00:28:26.663 --> 00:28:33.616 - power as a government official to attempt to ruin Swierich's life. Public employees have First Amendment 00:28:33.616 --> 00:28:35.934 - rights as long as they're private, 00:28:36.066 --> 00:28:43.058 - outside the office speech does not substantially disrupt their employer's workplace or its ability to 00:28:43.058 --> 00:28:50.325 - carry out its job. Swierich's case is now in federal court, and I predict that Ball State, after spending 00:28:50.325 --> 00:28:57.317 - several hundred thousand dollars on the expense of Washington lawyers it has hired, will lose. That's 00:28:57.317 --> 00:29:04.926 - because no facts have come to light suggesting that the legal bar for substantial disruption was cleared here. 00:29:05.314 --> 00:29:12.850 - The fact that some people were upset or angered by Swierks' comments likely will not be found by a court 00:29:12.850 --> 00:29:20.242 - sufficient to qualify as substantial disruption. As I wrote about the case in the Indy Star, if people 00:29:20.242 --> 00:29:27.634 - who didn't like Swierks' social media comments could simply manufacture substantial disruption through 00:29:27.634 --> 00:29:33.950 - their extravagant overreaction, or if politicians could do so by their public bullying, 00:29:34.242 --> 00:29:41.978 - then the First Amendment would protect very little. So to this point, I've tried to sketch, I hope not 00:29:41.978 --> 00:29:49.565 - unfairly, a few high-profile examples of what I see as hypocrisy on both sides when it comes to free 00:29:49.565 --> 00:29:57.752 - speech. But why is this kind of self-serving behavior a problem when it comes to an important constitutional 00:29:57.752 --> 00:30:00.606 - right and principle of human freedom? 00:30:01.602 --> 00:30:09.318 - Simply stated, a commitment to free speech must be a neutral principle. A principle is neutral when 00:30:09.318 --> 00:30:17.189 - it can be generalized, when it applies without regard to the identity, popularity, or politics of the 00:30:17.189 --> 00:30:25.445 - speaker or cause. Why are neutral principles important? The First Amendment is not merely about protecting 00:30:25.445 --> 00:30:30.846 - individual speakers. It is a guarantee that the marketplace of ideas, 00:30:30.946 --> 00:30:38.912 - remains open. Without neutral principles, free speech becomes merely a partisan slogan and cudgel. When 00:30:38.912 --> 00:30:46.878 - constitutional rights, like the First Amendment, are litigated in court, they must be applied neutrally 00:30:46.878 --> 00:30:55.304 - and consistently across cases, regardless of who is benefited or burdened. Otherwise, courts lose credibility 00:30:55.304 --> 00:30:56.606 - with the public. 00:30:57.122 --> 00:31:04.193 - In the Ball State case, the question will be not whether SWYARC statements were good or bad, popular 00:31:04.193 --> 00:31:11.333 - or unpopular, whether they angered powerful people, but rather whether they objectively, according to 00:31:11.333 --> 00:31:18.684 - objective standards, created a substantial disruption to Ball State's operations. And as I said, I don't 00:31:18.684 --> 00:31:23.934 - think the test is likely to be met. The requirement for neutral principles 00:31:24.034 --> 00:31:31.825 - is not just a matter of legal doctrine, it's a moral commitment. It insists on intellectual honesty. 00:31:31.825 --> 00:31:39.616 - It insists on the courage to criticize our political allies when necessary and the courage to defend 00:31:39.616 --> 00:31:47.869 - the rights of speakers we disagree with. And neutrality isn't always about political partisanship. Indiana 00:31:47.869 --> 00:31:53.886 - University arguably abandoned neutrality when it imposed a policy prohibiting 00:31:54.050 --> 00:32:00.946 - nighttime political protests, a ban that was later found unconstitutional by a federal court. But IU 00:32:00.946 --> 00:32:08.115 - was more than happy to have hundreds of students happily gathering on campus overnight and voicing their 00:32:08.115 --> 00:32:15.148 - support for their team when ESPN's College Game Day came to town. And so again, this is the difference 00:32:15.148 --> 00:32:19.518 - between encouraging speech we like while banning speech we find 00:32:19.842 --> 00:32:28.560 - problematic or inconvenient, even if there's not necessarily an element of partisanship to it. And so 00:32:28.560 --> 00:32:37.620 - if we really believe in free speech, I think we must reject the thinking, as the historian and journalist 00:32:37.620 --> 00:32:44.030 - Nat Hentoff titled one of his books, Free Speech for Me, but Not for Thee. 00:32:44.290 --> 00:32:51.001 - A similar commitment to neutral principles is necessary, I think, for the proper functioning of academic 00:32:51.001 --> 00:32:57.520 - freedom, which Byron noted is also an interest of mine. Academic freedom overlaps with free speech in 00:32:57.520 --> 00:33:04.039 - the First Amendment. They have distinct principles, but they are related. By academic freedom, I mean 00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:10.430 - the principle that faculty should be free to engage in the creation and dissemination of knowledge. 00:33:11.138 --> 00:33:20.014 - free of constraints, free of censorship by the government, and that universities should be largely allowed 00:33:20.014 --> 00:33:28.392 - to govern themselves. Yet many universities seem to have given up on these neutral principles. Being 00:33:28.392 --> 00:33:36.770 - a neutral principle means academic freedom must rest on something more than faculty or institutional 00:33:36.770 --> 00:33:38.014 - self-interest. 00:33:38.306 --> 00:33:46.408 - The idea that universities should be largely left alone is a social compact. In exchange for a degree 00:33:46.408 --> 00:33:54.669 - of autonomy, universities function as unique social institutions devoted to rigorous analysis, the free 00:33:54.669 --> 00:34:02.930 - flow of ideas, and the discovery of new knowledge. As the American Association of University Professors 00:34:02.930 --> 00:34:05.790 - recognized more than a century ago, 00:34:06.146 --> 00:34:14.993 - public acceptance of our work as faculty members depends on it being seen as disinterested expression 00:34:14.993 --> 00:34:23.840 - and as unbiased inquiry. The University of Chicago's 1967 Calvin Report said a university must remain 00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:32.254 - institutionally neutral on political and social controversies. And that reason is the university 00:34:32.354 --> 00:34:41.123 - This report written by the famous First Amendment scholar, Professor Calvin. The university cannot take 00:34:41.123 --> 00:34:49.555 - collective action on the issues of the day without engendering the conditions for its existence and 00:34:49.555 --> 00:34:58.324 - effectiveness. Calvin said that the university is the home and the sponsor of critics. It is not itself 00:34:58.324 --> 00:35:01.950 - the critic. Like any other speaker, I feel 00:35:02.114 --> 00:35:09.342 - to close on some sort of optimistic or at least positive note, although there may not be much among 00:35:09.342 --> 00:35:16.930 - the wreckage that I've talked about. So let me offer this one quotation from a speech titled, The Spirit 00:35:16.930 --> 00:35:24.375 - of Liberty, given by the great former Federal Court of Appeals Justice in New York, Learned Hand. Hand 00:35:24.375 --> 00:35:28.350 - was speaking at an event called, I Am an American Day. 00:35:28.482 --> 00:35:35.978 - in New York in 1944. This was an event that celebrated newly naturalized citizens. Judge Hans said, 00:35:35.978 --> 00:35:43.924 - the spirit of liberty is the spirit which seeks to understand the mind of other men and women. The spirit 00:35:43.924 --> 00:35:51.419 - of liberty is the spirit which weighs their interests alongside its own without bias. And something 00:35:51.419 --> 00:35:57.566 - I find that I agree with the older I get, the spirit of liberty, Judge Hans said, 00:35:57.762 --> 00:36:06.269 - is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right. So thank you. I wanted to keep that relatively 00:36:06.269 --> 00:36:14.861 - compact because I suspected this was also going to be a topic where there could be a lot of questions 00:36:14.861 --> 00:36:24.126 - and discussion. And I would love to be a part of that as long as we have. Do we have any questions out there? 00:36:24.674 --> 00:36:31.364 - And I don't know if somebody else will keep the queue or if I should just, was that Jim I said? I got 00:36:31.364 --> 00:36:38.054 - it right here. Okay, all right. Thank you, Steve, for the presentation. The first thing I want to say 00:36:38.054 --> 00:36:44.809 - is that, first of all, I'm not afraid of the governor, the lieutenant governor, the secretary of state 00:36:44.809 --> 00:36:52.286 - or our attorney general. But thank you. But as a politician, I serve two terms on city council. I understand that 00:36:52.482 --> 00:37:00.400 - A lot of my speech had to have been tempered during that time, mainly because of the funding sources 00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:08.632 - and the threat against that. Move forward. Now I'm the president of the NAACP. We are nonpartisan. We're 00:37:08.632 --> 00:37:16.472 - not apolitical. And I feel no threat to speak on what is right for our organization. So my question 00:37:16.472 --> 00:37:20.862 - to you is, should I have anything to fear individually? 00:37:21.442 --> 00:37:28.317 - from our political leaders with regard to our free speech and organizations such as that? I will say 00:37:28.317 --> 00:37:35.328 - we just wrote a letter about the university and had it, we posted it against the takeover of the board 00:37:35.328 --> 00:37:42.271 - of trustees, the kidnapping I should say, and the elimination of the diversity, equity, and inclusion 00:37:42.271 --> 00:37:49.758 - programs. So should I still be comfortable in saying what we think is correct against what we think is wrong? 00:37:49.858 --> 00:37:56.002 - I mean, the NAACP is a private organization. I think at the end of the day, legally, the only thing 00:37:56.002 --> 00:38:02.208 - you have to worry about is your board of directors and whether they're happy with what you're saying 00:38:02.208 --> 00:38:08.598 - or unhappy with what you're saying. You don't get funding, I assume, from the state or any other entity 00:38:08.598 --> 00:38:14.558 - that could make a political judgment. So I would say, no, I mean, the only thing you might face. 00:38:15.234 --> 00:38:21.743 - you know, is just, if something, if Todd Rokita, the governor, somebody else decides to use their bully 00:38:21.743 --> 00:38:28.126 - pulpit to publicly attack you in some way or denounce you in some way, you know, that's what you have 00:38:28.126 --> 00:38:34.447 - to worry about. Now that, in one sense, that's just the rough and tumble, the free flow of ideas and 00:38:34.447 --> 00:38:40.831 - debate. But, you know, we're talking about people who have bigger social media accounts and access to 00:38:40.831 --> 00:38:43.710 - the media and megaphones than perhaps you do. 00:38:44.258 --> 00:38:52.320 - my sense off the cuff is the only thing you have to worry about is whether you feel you can adequately 00:38:52.320 --> 00:39:00.460 - defend yourself, whether your membership will stand up for its interests if it's attacked or criticized 00:39:00.460 --> 00:39:08.679 - by people on the other side of what you're advocating for. Sure. Other questions? Yes. I see a question. 00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:11.966 - I can move around, right? Is this OK? OK. 00:39:12.770 --> 00:39:20.391 - I would worry about his financial ability if somebody does decide to bring a suit. And that's a large 00:39:20.391 --> 00:39:27.938 - part of the president's. So about Jim's union or what you say is. Well, anybody who's being sued, if 00:39:27.938 --> 00:39:35.633 - they want to have a defense, they have to hire a lawyer. And some people have much bigger pockets. And 00:39:35.633 --> 00:39:38.622 - I think that that may be something that 00:39:39.010 --> 00:39:46.360 - he could worry about whether or not it's a worthwhile suit, he still might have to pay for the organization 00:39:46.360 --> 00:39:53.166 - for defense. Yeah, it's certainly possible. This term lawfare has come into being where you use the 00:39:53.166 --> 00:40:00.108 - law to try to harass your enemies. Again, offhand, a private organization, a membership organization, 00:40:00.108 --> 00:40:07.390 - an advocacy organization like that, I can't offhand if we're talking about an organization like the NAACP. 00:40:07.490 --> 00:40:15.913 - imagine on what basis someone could sue them. I assume Jim is not going to libel anybody. I mean, if 00:40:15.913 --> 00:40:24.836 - you libel somebody, there's a legal definition for defamation. Well, that's true. And there's no safeguard 00:40:24.836 --> 00:40:33.175 - other than hopefully a court doing its job and moving toward an early dismissal of an unmeritorious 00:40:33.175 --> 00:40:36.094 - lawsuit. I'll add to that as well. 00:40:36.546 --> 00:40:45.506 - Because I follow refugee and immigration issues here as a volunteer in the community, I've been following 00:40:45.506 --> 00:40:54.382 - closely the state attorney general's work and efforts to chill organizations that are engaged in working 00:40:54.382 --> 00:41:02.836 - with immigrants, refugees, asylum seekers, and the like. So there's another branch of that lawfare, 00:41:02.836 --> 00:41:05.118 - as you put it, that is not 00:41:05.410 --> 00:41:13.890 - doesn't come before a court, but rather Rokito has launched requests for information and investigations 00:41:13.890 --> 00:41:22.207 - into organizations. One of note is Exodus Refugee Immigration, which is based in Indianapolis, but as 00:41:22.207 --> 00:41:30.524 - an office in Bloomington. And so, you know, alleging potential for human trafficking, which of course 00:41:30.524 --> 00:41:34.846 - they work on the opposite side of human trafficking, 00:41:34.978 --> 00:41:43.141 - and, you know, not following their nonprofit charter and violating the law. So, you know, that's not 00:41:43.141 --> 00:41:51.224 - defensible. That's just, it doesn't go to court. It only goes between the attorney general's office 00:41:51.224 --> 00:41:59.711 - and, you know, so that stuff is happening. And I'm sure it's a reflection of speech or it's a reflection 00:41:59.711 --> 00:42:04.318 - of trying to show their action in the work that they do. 00:42:04.738 --> 00:42:11.214 - I don't know the specifics of the case you're talking about. I've read some headlines, I think. I mean, 00:42:11.214 --> 00:42:17.504 - I think the only thing I can say is that at the end of the day, Attorney General Rokita is a lawyer. 00:42:17.504 --> 00:42:23.606 - He is accountable to not just the ordinary law that we're all accountable, but to special ethical 00:42:23.606 --> 00:42:26.782 - professional obligations that are applicable under 00:42:26.882 --> 00:42:32.998 - the bar association's regulations that are applicable only to lawyers. Now, he has found himself on 00:42:32.998 --> 00:42:39.482 - the wrong side of those ethical rules in the past, and that's been in the headlines. I mean, if he abuses 00:42:39.482 --> 00:42:45.720 - his office, if he abuses his power as the state's lawyer, there are disciplinary mechanisms available 00:42:45.720 --> 00:42:51.959 - to attempt to hold him to account. Again, I'm not making a judgment because I don't know the facts of 00:42:51.959 --> 00:42:53.182 - this situation, but 00:42:53.314 --> 00:43:03.459 - that is one place where it's useful that lawyers are supposed to be held to a particularly high standard 00:43:03.459 --> 00:43:13.410 - of ethical conduct. Steve, if someone had told me just a few years ago that a lecturer would be banned 00:43:13.410 --> 00:43:22.782 - from the classroom because a student called a US senator objecting to a graphic and that senator 00:43:22.978 --> 00:43:33.356 - called the Dean, does this not just violate what academic freedom is all about? And it just reminds 00:43:33.356 --> 00:43:43.941 - me of totalitarian place where students or where people are told to complain, to put in complaints to 00:43:43.941 --> 00:43:51.102 - higher powers. It's the most authoritarian thing that I can imagine. 00:43:51.394 --> 00:43:59.023 - How can we have changed so much so fast? I don't know if you've heard about the case that Judy is talking 00:43:59.023 --> 00:44:06.579 - about. I have some complicated takes on that that I've been arguing with people on on Facebook as usual. 00:44:06.579 --> 00:44:13.992 - This was a graphic that talked about this is overt white supremacy and this is covert white supremacy. 00:44:13.992 --> 00:44:17.662 - What was listed as covert white supremacy included 00:44:17.826 --> 00:44:24.602 - a lot of things that I would not call white supremacy, but it's a graphic that's often used in DEI trainings 00:44:24.602 --> 00:44:30.881 - and so forth. Now, this was a class where students are graded. And so my sort of hot take on that is 00:44:30.881 --> 00:44:37.408 - if this professor of this lecture was using that slide as an artifact for learning and discussion, let's 00:44:37.408 --> 00:44:43.997 - think critically about this. Are these things really white supremacy? What do we mean by white supremacy? 00:44:43.997 --> 00:44:47.230 - And, you know, contying these other kinds of things 00:44:47.522 --> 00:44:53.139 - you know, particular behaviors or attitudes. Should those be called white supremacy? If she used it 00:44:53.139 --> 00:44:58.812 - as the launching point for a critical discussion, then of course, as a matter of academic freedom, I 00:44:58.812 --> 00:45:04.429 - think it is protected. And, you know, I think she might have a lawsuit if that was interfered with, 00:45:04.429 --> 00:45:10.046 - because we are in a federal circuit that says what teachers do in the classroom is protected by the 00:45:10.046 --> 00:45:15.326 - First Amendment. What I said on Facebook was if, however, she was using this particular slide 00:45:15.874 --> 00:45:22.614 - and she was teaching it essentially as truth, this is what you must believe to succeed in this class, 00:45:22.614 --> 00:45:29.419 - then I'd have problems with it from an academic freedom standpoint, because the AAUP back in 1915 said 00:45:29.419 --> 00:45:36.225 - that professors' academic freedom doesn't include the right to politically indoctrinate vulnerable and 00:45:36.225 --> 00:45:39.198 - impressionable students. So, so much of this 00:45:39.458 --> 00:45:45.395 - as an academic freedom matter, I think depends on how that slide was used in political science. It's 00:45:45.395 --> 00:45:51.272 - the difference between teaching a scholarly article, which you could say, this is the best that our 00:45:51.272 --> 00:45:57.385 - discipline can come up with in the refinement of knowledge versus teaching somebody's political speech. 00:45:57.385 --> 00:46:03.792 - And you can pick it apart, but you don't put it forth as truth. Now, the point you're raising is essentially 00:46:03.792 --> 00:46:08.318 - just how this came to be. I use reaction to it. Yes, we live in a time where 00:46:08.514 --> 00:46:14.358 - politicians feel increasingly, you know, I am certain that back in the days when I worked for Ken Gross 00:46:14.358 --> 00:46:19.977 - Lewis, you know, in the 1990s, that there were politicians who, you know, brought complaints to the 00:46:19.977 --> 00:46:25.708 - chancellor and the deans, but they didn't become as high, as high profile as this. And, you know, the 00:46:25.708 --> 00:46:31.383 - response was not as harsh. The idea that you pull some, I don't, you know, I'm not involved in that. 00:46:31.383 --> 00:46:37.114 - I think I, you know, as an associate dean myself, I need to be a little careful about criticizing the 00:46:37.114 --> 00:46:38.238 - decision makers of, 00:46:38.370 --> 00:46:45.155 - people in other schools, I would just say that I do think it is a somewhat harsh response to say we 00:46:45.155 --> 00:46:52.007 - have to investigate this. That used to be the kind of thing we saved for really grievous things like 00:46:52.007 --> 00:46:59.199 - an assault on a student or something like that. And so I do think, you know, you called it authoritarian, 00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:04.830 - your word, I think a lot depends on how the university reacts to this. If there is 00:47:05.058 --> 00:47:11.729 - a thoughtful discussion and analysis of how this was being used in the class. The slide in and of itself 00:47:11.729 --> 00:47:18.083 - is not necessarily objectionable. It all depends on the context of what was happening in the class. 00:47:18.083 --> 00:47:24.500 - So I just hope that this gets resolved quickly. And I hope that the university, if it's necessary to 00:47:24.500 --> 00:47:31.806 - do so, is not afraid to tell Senator Banks, sorry, we looked into this, but it's academically appropriate. I hope. 00:47:34.818 --> 00:47:42.122 - Question online. Yeah, Joy. Yes, actually I'm representing Michael Shermas, who is driving and I'm asking 00:47:42.122 --> 00:47:49.219 - this question for him. He would like, Steve, he'd like to know how much worse do you think it will get 00:47:49.219 --> 00:47:55.490 - in terms of our free speech rights being taken away? Do you think we're headed down a path 00:47:55.490 --> 00:48:01.278 - of an authoritarian government taking bigger chunks of our free speech rights away? 00:48:04.610 --> 00:48:10.644 - I think the short answer is simply yes, but I want to say there's a lot there. What level of government 00:48:10.644 --> 00:48:16.795 - are we talking about? What speech rights are we talking about? Are we talking about my free speech rights 00:48:16.795 --> 00:48:22.771 - in the classroom to teach a subject as I feel is appropriate to teach it? Are we talking about my free 00:48:22.771 --> 00:48:28.574 - speech rights here in a public setting? Are we talking about a letter to the editor that I write on 00:48:28.574 --> 00:48:29.502 - a public issue? 00:48:30.178 --> 00:48:37.437 - I mean, I do think as a general principle, not just for the reasons I've talked about that we've lost 00:48:37.437 --> 00:48:44.695 - sight of neutrality, but in a more general way, yes, free speech is under attack. People find comfort 00:48:44.695 --> 00:48:51.811 - in strong leaders and borderline authoritarianism and seem to place less faith. I think free speech 00:48:51.811 --> 00:48:59.070 - requires a commitment of principle. It's not something that necessarily makes your daily life easier. 00:48:59.170 --> 00:49:05.336 - I guess I hope I'm not fudging on Michael's question in a sort of broad general way. I think yes, but 00:49:05.336 --> 00:49:11.623 - I would want to discuss again, what is the specific context we're talking about? What is the government 00:49:11.623 --> 00:49:17.668 - behavior we're talking about? I mean, I don't feel my free speech rights are threatened. I hope I'm 00:49:17.668 --> 00:49:23.713 - not being naive, but I would not want to be the president of a university or the head of a law firm 00:49:23.713 --> 00:49:27.038 - that was facing down the federal government and having 00:49:27.138 --> 00:49:34.076 - conditions imposed on it that limit its freedom of expression, professional function and so forth. Okay, 00:49:34.076 --> 00:49:40.882 - Tim. Thank you very much for coming. It's a message we need to hear. Some of us recently have seen the 00:49:40.882 --> 00:49:47.821 - Wizard of Oz and we learned about courage. You have shown a remarkable lot of courage in your statements 00:49:47.821 --> 00:49:54.495 - and I'm so glad you're here. Thank you. My question is there is a federal judge who now has resigned 00:49:54.495 --> 00:49:55.486 - so that he can 00:49:55.618 --> 00:50:02.630 - critique the current administration. Do you see, think we will see more courage on the behalf of our 00:50:02.630 --> 00:50:09.712 - elected and judicial officials to come forth and speak outwardly with courage as you have done? Well, 00:50:09.712 --> 00:50:16.655 - I, you know, at least in terms of the federal government, when it comes to Congress, no, absolutely 00:50:16.655 --> 00:50:23.806 - not. I mean, there has been a complete, you know, the logic of our constitution is that you would have 00:50:24.034 --> 00:50:32.216 - branches not just of equal power, but of equal jealousy in guarding their prerogatives. That has completely 00:50:32.216 --> 00:50:40.247 - broken down with the lack of any sort of functional effective Congress willing to assert its prerogatives 00:50:40.247 --> 00:50:47.974 - in the face of the kind of clear executive overreach we have seen. So in that political realm and the 00:50:47.974 --> 00:50:51.838 - congressional side, no, we clearly don't see that. 00:50:51.970 --> 00:50:59.330 - On the judicial side, I mean, from what I have seen, we have judges voicing increasing frustration, 00:50:59.330 --> 00:51:06.837 - increasing skepticism, attempting to do their jobs, blocking things that need to be blocked and doing 00:51:06.837 --> 00:51:14.270 - so with well-reasoned opinions, except for the Supreme Court, which does a lot of things and doesn't 00:51:14.270 --> 00:51:18.686 - provide much of an opinion on it. But my great fear is that 00:51:19.522 --> 00:51:25.758 - the courts are fooling themselves if they think at the end of the day, they can enforce some of the 00:51:25.758 --> 00:51:32.181 - orders that they are giving. The courts, the Supreme Court, the lower federal courts do not have their 00:51:32.181 --> 00:51:38.479 - own army police force. They have some enforcement mechanisms, but even those are typically dependent 00:51:38.479 --> 00:51:44.901 - on the Department of Justice and the marshals who work for the Department of Justice. And who does the 00:51:44.901 --> 00:51:48.830 - Department of Justice report to? The president. And so I worry 00:51:48.930 --> 00:51:56.167 - You know, we have seen hints up until now of flouting or disregard of court orders. So far, I don't 00:51:56.167 --> 00:52:03.837 - know that we've seen completely open defiance, or at least open defiance last very long. The short answer 00:52:03.837 --> 00:52:11.074 - is, I think, yes, I do see the federal courts doing an admirable job of attempting to rule based on 00:52:11.074 --> 00:52:18.238 - principle. I worry, though, when push comes to shove, that they may not have the muscle to enforce 00:52:18.402 --> 00:52:25.131 - the principle orders and decisions that they are coming to. Thank you so much for what you're sharing 00:52:25.131 --> 00:52:31.793 - today. Really an opinion question. Has social media become a friend or foe to the true principles of 00:52:31.793 --> 00:52:38.720 - free speech? And does this facilitate a cultural misunderstanding of the same? Yeah. I mean, I'm tempted 00:52:38.720 --> 00:52:45.713 - to punt and say that's a very complicated question. I mean, I think the answer is both. Obviously, social 00:52:45.713 --> 00:52:47.230 - media does give people 00:52:47.394 --> 00:52:54.600 - a voice who may not have had it before. I can engage in commentary that some of you appreciate on Facebook 00:52:54.600 --> 00:53:01.470 - and do things, and I couldn't have done that otherwise. I couldn't write a letter every day to the HT 00:53:01.470 --> 00:53:08.407 - and expect them to publish it. So yeah, social media in some ways has definitely been a boon, I think, 00:53:08.407 --> 00:53:14.334 - to free speech. It's all in how you choose to consume it and what you choose to follow. 00:53:14.658 --> 00:53:22.382 - I have become less sanguine about the theory of free speech and First Amendment that says in the marketplace 00:53:22.382 --> 00:53:29.822 - of ideas, good ideas, right ideas, true ideas will prevail and eventually will drive out the bad, false, 00:53:29.822 --> 00:53:37.120 - faulty ideas. I think social media doesn't lend itself to that. It's driven by algorithms and bots and 00:53:37.120 --> 00:53:39.742 - all of that. Every time I, you know, 00:53:40.130 --> 00:53:46.926 - decide to sign on to Twitter or X. It's just this overflowing toilet of political nonsense and sort 00:53:46.926 --> 00:53:53.722 - of hate and illogic and everything. So in that sense, I do worry. There's social science literature 00:53:53.722 --> 00:54:00.518 - that tells us about the effect that social media has on people's reasoning ability, attention span, 00:54:00.518 --> 00:54:06.974 - and so forth. I worry that that's a problem. I guess the only thing I can say is if you use it 00:54:07.202 --> 00:54:15.186 - wisely and in a deliberate way. Yes, I think I would rather have that access to LinkedIn and Twitter 00:54:15.186 --> 00:54:23.092 - and Facebook for my own use than to not have access to it. We only have time for one more question. 00:54:23.092 --> 00:54:31.155 - Raj, I know you had your hand up and I know Alan had a question. If it's quick, we'll try and squeeze 00:54:31.155 --> 00:54:35.582 - you in as well, Alan. But Raj? Raj? Yes. Go ahead, Raj. 00:54:36.418 --> 00:54:45.217 - Thank you very much, Dr. Sanders, for your presentation today. I live in Chicago, Illinois, and part 00:54:45.217 --> 00:54:54.191 - of my source of IU campus is the IDF. And as you know, the IDF has been going through upheaval, partly 00:54:54.191 --> 00:55:03.774 - from the government itself in Indianapolis, and major effects impacted it from the university administration. 00:55:05.282 --> 00:55:12.834 - Would you please summarize what you think happened and why it happened and where are we going with the 00:55:12.834 --> 00:55:20.680 - IDS printing coffee? So we have an expert here in Jim Rodenbush. The question was sort of what's happening 00:55:20.680 --> 00:55:27.352 - at the IDS. The short answer is I don't know all of the truth because there is a lot about 00:55:27.352 --> 00:55:33.438 - the decision-making process concerning Jim's job, concerning communication between 00:55:33.570 --> 00:55:41.029 - administration and the students that to my mind just hasn't become clear. We haven't seen evidence or 00:55:41.029 --> 00:55:48.707 - documents. We've heard a lot of speculation. We have heard people drawing conclusions about motivations. 00:55:48.707 --> 00:55:50.462 - Again, what I have said 00:55:51.010 --> 00:55:58.342 - Facebook, which some people have, including many of my own classmates. I'm a graduate of the journalism 00:55:58.342 --> 00:56:05.463 - school. I spent six years working at the Daily Student in the 1980s. So I feel a connection there. I 00:56:05.463 --> 00:56:12.514 - see the situation as complicated. I see it as a clash between business imperatives, how to move the 00:56:12.514 --> 00:56:18.718 - paper toward often dependence on print toward a digital future, which was ongoing work. 00:56:19.554 --> 00:56:26.276 - I don't know exactly what the nature of the communication was between the media school about what these 00:56:26.276 --> 00:56:32.803 - special editions would look like, but my bottom line, what I have said, and I'm happy if people will 00:56:32.803 --> 00:56:39.266 - disagree with me on this, that I, in this situation, from what I've seen and what I know, would not 00:56:39.266 --> 00:56:45.730 - use the red letter, all caps word, censorship. To me, censorship has a particular meaning. It means 00:56:45.730 --> 00:56:48.638 - prohibiting or punishing speech based on its 00:56:48.770 --> 00:56:55.800 - viewpoint, its content, its subject matter. No one has ever alleged that there's been any attempted 00:56:55.800 --> 00:57:02.831 - interference in what the Daily Student publishes online, which I venture to say is what most people 00:57:02.831 --> 00:57:09.861 - see and where most people read the news product. There's never been any interference with that. Was 00:57:09.861 --> 00:57:15.134 - the decision to end print or the decree that the special issues could only 00:57:15.266 --> 00:57:22.785 - contain sort of special content and not news content, was that motivated by the fact that the university 00:57:22.785 --> 00:57:30.017 - wanted to suppress what it saw as negative news coverage? That's the implication. I haven't yet seen 00:57:30.017 --> 00:57:37.177 - the proof of that, the smoking gun that I would need to draw that conclusion that that decision was 00:57:37.177 --> 00:57:45.054 - based on animus toward the topic or the viewpoints or the content being published as opposed to a frustration 00:57:45.154 --> 00:57:51.923 - with a process that was supposed to help wean the paper off this occasional print run and move it more 00:57:51.923 --> 00:57:58.691 - toward digital content. Again, Jim may disagree with me, Jim knows more than I do about the situation, 00:57:58.691 --> 00:58:05.328 - others may as well. I have just, as I said, I have seen this as a difficult tension between business 00:58:05.328 --> 00:58:09.534 - imperatives, the thing can't keep losing money, the university, 00:58:09.762 --> 00:58:18.074 - subsidizes it to more than a quarter of its annual budget and is doing so so far uncomplainingly, a 00:58:18.074 --> 00:58:26.386 - tension between that, the deficit, and editorial freedom for the paper. I would say that I think my 00:58:26.386 --> 00:58:33.534 - sense of the task force that the dean of the media school has appointed, based on the 00:58:33.698 --> 00:58:40.542 - people who are on it looks very good to me. It includes faculty members who have been critical of what's 00:58:40.542 --> 00:58:47.647 - going on. It includes a very prominent media lawyer from Chicago who we at the law school actually nominated 00:58:47.647 --> 00:58:54.165 - and recommended to Dean Tolchinsky. And so I see that as a positive development. What this seems to 00:58:54.165 --> 00:59:01.009 - come down to is all this been happening with goodwill or badwill or at least badwill or lack of badwill. 00:59:01.009 --> 00:59:01.726 - I have not 00:59:01.858 --> 00:59:08.566 - seen the proof that I would need to draw the conclusion that this has been ill-motivated or out of bad 00:59:08.566 --> 00:59:15.079 - will or malice to the paper. Again, I could be wrong. I'm open to evidence. To the contrary, that's 00:59:15.079 --> 00:59:20.094 - how I have seen it at this point. I think there's a narrative out there that 00:59:20.194 --> 00:59:26.853 - that people have latched onto, that the students are putting out, that people have latched onto, 00:59:26.853 --> 00:59:33.787 - in my mind, uncritically. And I hope, again, I'm not, I spent six years there. It's near and dear to 00:59:33.787 --> 00:59:40.926 - my heart. I hope I'm not dismissing the interests of the paper, the interests of the students, but it's 00:59:40.926 --> 00:59:47.448 - my sort of wanting to see facts and think about all the sides here before I draw a conclusion. 00:59:47.448 --> 00:59:48.958 - Thank you. Thank you. 00:59:54.562 --> 01:00:01.250 - Thank you for a most interesting presentation. I really love the concept of the university being a home 01:00:01.250 --> 01:00:07.937 - and sponsor of critics. In honor of your talk, a donation we made this quarter to the Lake Monroe Water 01:00:07.937 --> 01:00:14.496 - Fund. I'll remind people in the room, don't forget to sign up for next week's Meals on Wheels project 01:00:14.496 --> 01:00:20.862 - and Salvation Army bell ringing after Thanksgiving. Diana Hoffman for Meals on Wheels, Dave Meyer, 01:00:21.122 --> 01:00:27.790 - for Michelle Cohen for Salvation Army Bell Ringing. Zoom attendees, how do they reach you? 01:00:27.790 --> 01:00:35.557 - Dave and Diana, or do we do it to the roundabout possibly? Okay, we'll get information in the roundabout. 01:00:35.557 --> 01:00:42.518 - I'd like to thank today's volunteers, Ruth Boschkoff, Peggy Frisbee, Byron Banger, Joy Harder, 01:00:42.518 --> 01:00:49.406 - David Wright, Marilyn Wood, Tracy Ivanovich, Alann Barker, Sarah Loughlin, also like to thank 01:00:49.602 --> 01:00:55.700 - Thank our staff, Tyler Martin Nichols, and Natalie Jenner-Blaze is still doing a little bit of her thing 01:00:55.700 --> 01:01:01.566 - down in Tennessee. She was back for the Rotary Toast, and it was really good to see her. So our next 01:01:01.566 --> 01:01:07.606 - meeting will be on November 18th here in the Georgia Room, and I will lead the Quarterly Club Assembly. 01:01:07.606 --> 01:01:13.182 - And Tyler, if you could put up the graphic for the four-way test. Please stand if you are able. 01:01:19.170 --> 01:01:26.607 - of the things we think, say, or do. First, is it the truth? Second, is it fair to all concerned? Third, 01:01:26.607 --> 01:01:34.187 - will it build goodwill and better friendships? Fourth, will it be beneficial to all concerned? And fifth, 01:01:34.187 --> 01:01:34.974 - is it fun?