- And I am a member of the Steering Committee of Bloomington United. I'm also the Rabbi of Congregation
- B'shalom. And I'm sort of facilitating this meeting tonight. We're set up kind of formally with microphones and
- But this is really meant to be a town meeting where we get to talk to one another and dialogue about
- issues that are important. I will say that the microphones here are very important. We're being taped.
- And so when the time comes for community discussion, I will ask that you find a microphone to speak
- from so that you'll get taped as well.
- Just a sense of what you can expect this evening. I'll have a few brief words of introduction and then
- I'll turn the program over to our panelists who will each make a short presentation.
- After their presentations, we'll have, I hope, about 45 minutes for general community discussion. Then,
- I'm pleased to say that the Reverend CJ Hocking, who's also standing outside holding a sign telling
- everyone where to go, was kind enough to bake cookies for us.
- So please stay after the formal program ends. We can talk a little bit. These gatherings of Bloomington
- United are often great places to meet people with similar concerns and interests and network a little
- bit. So please stay for cookies. We need to be out of the room by about a quarter of nine to help the
- library close up. So that's what you can expect this evening.
- According to my count, this is the fourth town meeting that Bloomington United has sponsored in recent
- years. Bloomington United is a coalition of diverse community members that emerged in the summer of
- 1998 to respond to some acute hate activity in Bloomington.
- Since then, we've tried to respond quickly and responsibly to other acts of hate, and most recently,
- Bloomington United led the Every Minute Count effort in response to a very hateful message that people
- were bringing into People's Park from outside our community.
- That's primarily what Bloomington United is known for, and you might have seen lawn signs sprout up
- around Bloomington at critical times. But in between those crises, we try to have meetings such as this
- one, gatherings where concerned citizens can talk together about issues of diversity.
- So in the past we've had a forum on hate crimes, we've had one on issues of special interest to the
- black community in Bloomington, and we also had one on issues concerning the Latino community. And tonight
- our topic will help us touch on issues of special relevance to religious minorities.
- I'll share with you Bloomington United's mission. Bloomington United is a coalition of community members
- whose mission is to promote educational opportunities that affirm the value of all human beings, bridge
- the differences between people, and respond to hate activity in our community. There are several sign-in
- sheets being distributed now. When they come to you, please give me your name and your email.
- There's a possibility that interesting information might emerge from tonight's meeting. And so if I
- have your email, I'll try to share it with everybody. Also, Bloomington United does keep a distribution
- list so that when there are future activities, if you are on the email list, you'll be sure to find
- out about them. Also, I'm happy to say that with the help of the Safe and Civil City program, a new
- and improved Bloomington United
- United website is now coming soon and so you can soon check on the web for more information about Bloomington
- United and also we have some resources about tonight's topic to share so at the end of the meeting we'll
- put those out for you as well.
- It's Bloomington United, our meeting tonight. We called, this is an hour and a half meeting with a very
- long title, Religion, Public Life, and Civic Values, Living with Diversity in a Democracy. Our gathering
- was specifically times
- to come at a time when so many of our neighbors are preparing for the Christmas holiday at home,
- in church, and also in their public spaces, in our public spaces. And actually driving here just tonight
- I was hearing on the local news that today students in the Monroe County Schools were working on ornaments
- for the downtown Christmas tree. So the topic that we're discussing tonight is
- very relevant and very real and something that many of us are concerned about. To what degree is it
- appropriate to bring such observances into public spaces and in particular into our public schools?
- What is the experience of those who do not celebrate Christmas at this time of year? And how can we
- as a community best honor the religious diversity, including those who are not religious at all,
- our citizens and our students. These are some of the questions that I've asked our panelists to address
- and that we'll be discussing together shortly.
- I'd like to thank all those organizations that are co-sponsors of tonight's event, so thanks for your
- support and also for your help with publicity. Co-sponsors include the Bloomington Human Rights Commission,
- the Bloomington Safe and Civil City Program, the Center for University Ministry, Parents, Family, and
- Friends of Lesbians and Gays, that's the Bloomington chapter, the Progressive Faculty Coalition, the
- American Association of University Professors,
- the Social Justice Coordinating Committee of the Unitarian Universalist Church, and the Bloomington
- chapter of the ACLU, the American Civil Liberty Union. Thanks, all of you, for your help. Speaking first
- tonight will be Jeff Isaac, who is a professor of political science at Indiana University. After his
- comments, Annette Briggs will offer a perspective rooted in her own theological commitment
- This is Annette, and she is pastor of University Baptist Church. And then Sarah Franklin will offer
- a perspective from the ground, speaking about how issues of church and state are put into practice in
- the context of a public school. Sarah Franklin is principal of Bloomington High School North. So I won't
- interrupt again until they're all three of them finished talking. Again, thank you all for being here,
- and thank you panelists. So Jeff.
- My comments will be brief. I would like to start by telling a story about Bloomington United and then
- tell a story about something that has to do neither with Bloomington nor being united and then go from
- there and just make a couple of points about the topic of what I'll simply call civic values in a democratic society.
- Many people in the community are aware of Bloomington United's existence because of the sign campaign
- that we organized first in the summer of 1998 in response to the distribution of hate literature in
- our community. And we organized these actually very aesthetically powerful signs, white cardboard with
- black lettering. And it said on the front of the sign, no hate speech, not in our yards, not in our
- town, not anywhere.
- Shortly thereafter, the people involved in that effort found themselves, at least some of them, me,
- found myself often having interesting conversations with people at Indiana University and elsewhere
- about what we mean when we say no hate speech. Are we trying to abolish certain forms of speech? Are
- we calling for the banning of certain kinds of speech? And that can't be good.
- We have a First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, and we believe in freedom of expression in this
- democracy of ours. We tried to clarify this. In fact, our second sign eliminated the phrase no hate
- speech. But I guess the point I want to make about this very poorly told story is that when we said
- no hate speech on our sign, those of us who put the sign together, what we meant to say was not
- certain kinds of speech ought to be prohibited by the government, but rather certain kinds of speech
- are unacceptable in our community, that we as citizens of the community are articulating a moral voice
- that we're standing for certain values, that the promotion of bigotry and hatred in our community is
- wrong, not because we regard it as illegal to promote bigotry and hatred, but because we think it is
- morally wrong and detrimental to the values of our community. And that while we recognize the right,
- the constitutional right of people to say vile things, we stand for something else, the values of pluralism,
- civility, and equal respect. And when people say vile things, we will say positive, constructive things,
- hopefully in a louder and more constructive and more civil way.
- Today I want to talk a little bit about what I'll call the ethics of citizenship. Now the ethics of
- citizenship is a topic that's closely linked to questions of constitutional law. And in this conversation
- I'm sure we're going to quickly move to certain discussions about what kinds of things are appropriate
- or inappropriate in a public school according to interpretations of the First Amendment.
- And these are important questions. There are legal questions at stake here that are adjudicated in the
- courts and that are discussed by lawyers. It's important for us to be aware of them and as citizens,
- it's important for us to engage them. I want to talk about briefly about a different set of questions
- which are related but not the same that have to do not with the topic of what the law permits or does
- not permit but the topic of what I'll simply call the civic values of a democratic society might
- be understood to permit or not permit. I want to talk a little bit about the topic of civility. And
- now I'm going to tell my second story. Briefly, I'm reading from a BBC newswire from the 8th of May
- of this year, and it's about violence in Gujarat, which is an area in India. It's a state in India.
- This is what BBC reported.
- Mobs of Hindus and Muslims set upon each other overnight in several areas. The army was called in after
- police failed to disperse the crowds which were armed with pistols, iron rods, stones, homemade explosive
- devices and acid bombs. The latest clashes brought the number of dead to at least 23 since Sunday. This
- was Wednesday, so within three days. Some of the violence was reported to have been in retaliation for
- the death on Tuesday of a Muslim teacher who was burnt alive after being dragged off his scooter on
- his way to work.
- More than 900 people, mainly Muslims, have been killed since late February when Hindu mobs went on the
- rampage to a vengeance attack on a train carrying Hindu activists from the disputed holy site at Ayodhya.
- I'm almost done. Right-wing Hindu organizations say the violence represented a spontaneous retaliation
- for the train attack which left 58 Hindus dead. But human rights groups and foreign observers have alleged
- the wholesale complicity of state authorities
- in what they say was a systematic campaign targeting the Muslim majority. Rights groups also say that
- at least 2,000 have died and many more have been forced to remain in refugee camps in Gujarat unable
- to go back to their homes. That is taking place pretty much today in India. And there are many other
- parts of the world where similar things are going on. A couple of weeks ago there was a similar kind
- of episode in Nigeria that was widely reported.
- These kinds of things that are going on in other parts of the world now were going on in Europe in the
- 16th century as a result of the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation. The 16th century is one of
- the bloodiest centuries in the history of Europe and had a profound effect upon European civilization
- and also upon our culture, which was forged in part as a result to escape some of the nastiness and
- brutality of the religious wars of the 16th century.
- So I want to talk a little bit about the idea of religious toleration and the idea of pluralism that
- is associated with it and be very brief, turn it over to the other panelists and hopefully we can then
- talk further. The idea of religious toleration emerges in response to these types of things in Europe
- in the 16th and 17th centuries. And it emerges as what we might call a rational response to religious
- persecution and violence.
- What emerges is a new idea of religious liberty, the idea that people ought to be free to practice religions
- of their choice and they ought not to be encumbered by the state or by practitioners of other religions.
- The idea is that the state should remove itself from religious devotion and religious practice as a
- way of assuring to individuals a maximum amount of freedom
- for them to believe as they believe and to practice the religion of their choice without fear of coercion,
- without fear of persecution. The idea of religious liberty initially serves a protective function. The
- whole idea of separation of church and state was designed in the first instance to make it possible
- for people to practice the religion of their choice without fear.
- This involved to some extent the domestication, what we might call the domestication of religious enthusiasm
- in two senses, you know, domestication in the sense of taming and domestication also in the sense of
- privatizing. What is going on is a new conception of religious practice, but I think what needs to be
- understood about this is that its purpose is to make religious freedom possible.
- The purpose is not to drive religion from society, but in fact to create spaces of freedom where religious
- practice is protected by the state and where the state is not used as an instrument for religious minorities
- to persecute, majorities to persecute religious minorities. This is a very important idea, which was
- the foundation of the modern constitutional state, which was the foundation of
- the American Revolution and the foundation of the U.S. Constitution. The development of this idea of
- religious liberty was associated with a new political vocabulary that was largely secularized. It's
- not that people were no longer interested in God or no longer talked about God or the Bible, but they
- increasingly complemented this language with a new language, a language about universal human rights
- and a language about the secular interest that human beings share as people who take an interest in
- themselves and who take an interest in their worldly advancement and their property and their families,
- a new idea of individual privacy. And the concept of religious liberty is closely associated with a
- more robust conception of individual privacy, which assumes increasing prominence in the early modern period.
- Associated with this is the idea of what a couple of historians have called the godless constitution.
- The idea that the function of a constitution is not to enforce any religious orthodoxy, but to protect
- a series of basic rights which allow individuals the freedom to practice whatever religion they choose.
- The idea of a godless constitution does not mean a godless society. It means, in fact, that religion
- is free to flourish in society as individuals choose to practice religion. A very important idea. Now
- this is the next idea that I want to talk briefly about is the really important thing from the vantage
- point of this panel. Associated with this new idea of religious liberty and the idea of a godless
- constitution is a new language of the common good. The idea that individuals as citizens
- all individuals are holders of rights and bearers of responsibilities, that individuals are primarily
- responsible for themselves, that all individuals have a primary interest in their own freedom, and because
- each of us wishes to live our life in accordance with our own deeply held values and our own personal
- plans, we agreed to join together on the basis of mutual respect. The idea here sometimes is called
- the social contract.
- The social contract assumes that difference between individuals is ineliminable, it cannot be eliminated
- and that individual differences are valuable and ought to be respected by the law within certain broad
- limits and that within those limits, individual citizens ought to be respectful of one another.
- Now, this idea of the social contract, the idea that individuals ought to be respectful of the values
- of others even when they do not hold those values is not natural. It is not easy. It does not come easy.
- It's very hard. It's the product of a historical learning experience. In order for people to behave
- in this way, they have to work very hard at it. One of the motivations for doing this work is the experience
- of what happens when,
- When this fails, what happens is people get very nasty with each other and people begin to feel very
- vulnerable and threatened. The social contract requires us to treat others even when they are very different
- from us and even when they subscribe to very different beliefs than our own with a basic respect. And
- it also requires us to treat our own deep commitments as good for us and perhaps even as ultimately
- good for everyone.
- but at the same time as our commitments and not as universal commitments. It requires us to understand
- that what we hold most dear is not necessarily what others hold most dear. It also requires us to acknowledge
- our own partiality and fallibility. We are not gods and because none of us is god, we must be wary of
- condemning others or looking askance at the ways in which they are different or the ways in which they
- think differently or the ways in which they behave
- differently. An acceptance of difference is very, very central to the ongoing functioning of this kind
- of a social contract and it makes very strong demands on people. It requires a great deal of self-restraint
- and moral self-discipline. It's very easy to imagine that what you think or what you believe or what
- you worship is clearly what everyone else ought to think or believe or worship and that if they don't
- believe it, there's something wrong with them and they need to be somehow brought into line. It's very easy.
- to believe that. It's also very damaging to the kind of society that we have. Now, this idea that there
- needs to be a respect for others who think differently, who behave differently, and who are different
- is true in general. And it's especially true with regard to religion, which is perhaps the most deeply
- held and ultimate commitment for most of us.
- Because of the depth with which it is held and because of the extent to which it's linked to certain
- ideas of transcendent authority, it's particularly difficult to live religiously and to practice religiously
- in an authentic way that also allows one to be accepting of others who are different. But it's indispensable.
- Now, this kind of awareness that I'm talking about, this ethic of respect, this ethic of civility is
- not inconsistent with public displays or expressions of religious values or symbols, nor is it inconsistent
- with a desire to act politically to advance religiously-based moral values. In fact, most of the progress
- that's been achieved in our country in the past 200 years has been motivated in large part, not exclusively,
- but in large part by people who were grounded in religious traditions.
- It's not inconsistent with what I'm talking about, to act on the basis of one's deepest moral values,
- even when these are religiously based, but it is inconsistent with the effort to institutionalize any
- particular religious creed or to justify values or policies simply on the basis of the religious foundation
- or mandate. It is perfectly appropriate for individuals to support and even to justify political positions
- because of their beliefs about what the Bible or another religious text
- for sensibility requires. But it is not appropriate for citizens in a democratic society to press political
- positions solely on the basis of the religious sanction for this presumes what is not the case and what
- the democratic value of civic pluralism refuses to presume. What it presumes is that other citizens
- share or must share the same religious values as we subscribe to and that those who believe other than
- what we believe
- by this very fact prove themselves not worthy of dignity, respect or political recognition. If we're
- going to have civic pluralism, we cannot presume that others share or must share our values and that
- if they don't, there's something wrong with them. I just want to say a couple of other things. I have
- some more planned but I think I'm just going to can it. The key point here is that it has to do with
- what we presume
- and the way in which what we presume affects the way we treat others in the public sphere and how we
- talk with others and how we talk to others and how we talk about others. The point is not that drawing
- upon a religious tradition or religious text is suspicious, but the point is that only making reference
- to what we think is our truth is really a sign of civic disrespect. It's not illegal.
- Nor do I want to say like it's the most immoral thing that you could do. On the scheme of things,
- you know, given what's going on in other parts of the world, the kinds of letters that we read in the
- HT every day which say like the school corporation ought to do this because it says this in Jeremiah
- 4 or we ought to have this public policy because Thessalonians says why, okay? I'm not saying that these
- are like profoundly immoral statements.
- And they're certainly not illegal or unconstitutional statements, but they're contrary to the ethos
- of civic pluralism, which is central to a democratic society. Not because they articulate sincere and
- deeply held religious convictions, because they do so in a way that is necessarily alienating to and
- offensive to, and in fact fails to resonate with other people who think differently. It makes a presumption.
- It makes the presumption that that text speaks the same way to everybody and that's everybody's text
- and pointing to that text is a sufficient basis for us to live together and for us to govern ourselves
- together. That presumption is I think what we need to be wary of and what we need to be constantly thinking
- about, talking about and I think working against. The public schools are I think one very important
- domain in a democratic society for doing this kind of civic education.
- constantly alerting us to the danger of that presumption. Thank you. I have been hanging out with African
- people for the last few months and what I've learned is that you don't begin your talk until you have
- greeted everyone in the room and described your appreciation for them. I will limit that to say that
- Rabbi Mira is my neighbor, my colleague and my good friend.
- Dr. Franklin has been a big help to me as I have worked with some of these Africans in the last few
- months and I read Dr. Isaac in the newspaper and before I went back to Weight Watchers, I used to see
- him every day at Howie's Bagels. But I want all of them to know I'm honored to share this time and this
- topic with them.
- In particular, I'm interested in the question, how can we as a community best honor the religious diversity
- of our citizens and students, and in particular, in a public school forum? I want to speak to this question
- in three ways, as a Christian, as a Baptist, and as a citizen. Christianity is my fundamental worldview.
- An ongoing interplay between God and humanity is my basic assumption in all things.
- In this interplay, God is always courting human beings, and it is a seduction, of course, of sorts.
- God loves humans, and God wants to be loved by humans. Humans do not initiate in this interplay. Humans
- only respond. Humans choose to accept God's love. They choose to love God back or not.
- And as I watch and listen and read the ministry of Jesus, what is apparent to me is that every person
- chooses freely without coercion. In Christian theology, this is called the priesthood of the believer.
- The priesthood of the believer means that every human possesses as part of his DNA or her DNA the God-given
- right to respond to God freely out of his or her own sense of God's call upon his or her life,
- her conscience, and her will.
- That means that every human being is in a constant experience of considering how we are going to respond
- to God. And my basic Christian worldview is that we have the God-given right to make these choices without
- the coercion of others, particularly those in authority over us, be they kings, presidents, priests,
- preachers, or second grade teachers. I am also a Baptist.
- I may be the first Baptist to ever speak at a program sponsored by the list that Mayor read. In those
- 1600s that Jeff described, my Baptist ancestors, men and women, were among those jailed, executed, and
- chased out of some of the nicest cities in Europe for refusing to participate in or conform
- to state-sponsored religion. Baptists were among those, he described, that changed Western culture,
- into what he described. Those Baptists also got into trouble with religious folks because they refused
- to sign their creeds, believing that Jesus was the only standard by which they could be judged as faithful.
- They were a stubborn bunch and many of them were burned at the stake being stubborn. And while my fundamental
- citizenship is in the kingdom of heaven, I am also an American citizen.
- And one of the tasks that American citizens have assumed for ourselves is public education. As a people,
- we have determined that every child shall have free access to the best education our property taxes
- and our bake sales can buy. And so it is within that publicly funded classroom that my Christian faith,
- my Baptist identity, and my civic responsibility coalesce. In the realm of civility, children are the
- least equipped to protect their own freedoms.
- and in their public school classroom they should not have to. Unfortunately that is not the case and
- that is particularly not the case at Christmas time. Right now kindergartners are learning to spell
- reindeer. Third graders are shopping for the voluntary three dollar secret Santa gift exchange. Fifth
- graders are building gingerbread houses and high schoolers are learning the four part harmony of God
- rest ye merry gentlemen.
- I am unconvinced by the suggestion that these are unreligious activities. They are rooted in the stories
- and the traditions that surround the birth of Jesus. And if my children, who are Baptist preacher's
- kids who cut their teeth on our wooden activity set, cannot separate these as religious and non-religious,
- how is a Hindu or a Jewish child going to separate them? Does an eight-year-old realize that her teacher
- is no longer teaching
- when she explains that the holiday gift exchange is voluntary? I don't think so. Is that same eight-year-old
- going to realize that suddenly she is not being evaluated for class participation when she chooses not
- to participate in the gift exchange? However well intentioned the teachers are, and I know they are,
- I think a backhanded sort of coercion is at work when public school students experience even the slightest
- pressure to participate in religious activity they have not chosen.
- The Christian and the Baptist in me believe that their God-given right to come freely to faith or not
- has been violated. The citizen in me believes we have failed in our promise made toward fellow citizens
- called public school children. Which brings up the brass tacks or where the rubber hits the road. We
- Baptists like to talk of the extreme separation of church and state.
- You'll know the difference between the extreme separation Baptist and the not extreme by whether or
- not they have an American flag in their sanctuary. In this case, that would mean that preachers preach
- and teachers teach. The study of religion as a component of culture has its rightful place in a public
- school classroom. Connie Austin is a Tri-North teacher who does a beautiful curriculum every October
- and does a field trip with that. That is appropriate, I do believe.
- Parochial schools abound. Bloomington has good ones for parents who want their children to be involved
- in Bible-based curriculum. But in public school, surely there are enough ways to study math without
- counting Christmas trees and candy canes. And I suspect there are other songs to sing. It can be done.
- I have seen it done. And every single time it's done, it is the children and all of the children who
- are winners. Thank you.
- I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you this evening about Bloomington High School North and what's
- happening in the other schools. I think we fundamentally believe that schools are a safe place for students
- to learn and we work very hard to make sure that that environment is maintained regardless of the beliefs
- that come through our door. We talk about civic responsibility.
- and that's something that we look to our teachers to provide and to guide and something that we address
- on a daily basis. But we also have to look to a balance in all the things that we talk about. We bring
- a wealth of information from our students. Information then can help students grow and learn and share
- and expand their horizons
- and be supported in those discussions. We keep emphasizing that we want a safe, civil, and positive
- learning environment. And in those discussions, when students bring their passion about a variety of
- issues, it's up to the teachers to be able to work with those issues, talk with the students, educate
- at all times,
- to help students appreciate the many different factors that are brought into the classroom and to teach
- respect. Not just tolerance, but teach ways of collaborating with others in the school, classroom, and
- in the community to grow as civic and civically minded and responsible individuals. With 1,400 students,
- I am fortunate enough to have lots of teachable moments.
- And at Bloomington North, we've had our share of situations where we will question and talk about different
- issues that are presented to us. But the bottom line, and as the other panelists have pointed out this
- evening, is that we respect each other and each other's right to feel and believe the way they choose.
- And when it comes to school,
- Coming into the building means that we have an opportunity to discuss those issues in positive ways.
- We can't control what's happening out in the world. We can't control all the things that are said in
- the community, the protests, the arguments. What we can control is what happens in our building. And
- we continually emphasize to stop, talk to each other, listen to each other,
- and grow with the information. This isn't a place to judge, it's not a place to criticize, but it is
- a place to learn, it is a place to grow, and it is a place to question when there is confusion
- or misunderstanding, regardless of religion, race, any issue that comes into the school. We go through,
- with students they have deeply held
- passions, not so much values, but passions. And to funnel that into positive energy and positive ways
- of approaching things, it takes a lot of support from teachers. And we've tried to find ways of channeling
- those passions, whether it's working together to build a house, whether it's working together to develop
- a program that's inclusive of all individuals in the building, whether it's a student forum
- where we talk about how to make the school a better place. We channel those energies because fundamentally,
- we're not looking at differences and ways of excluding people. We're looking at ways of including people
- and making sure that within the building, everyone feels welcome and safe. We've had lots of experiences
- at North where things have crossed the line.
- And we've always wanted to have lots of discussions about those various issues. But we emphasize repeatedly
- in a civic, in a school where we emphasize civility, concern, and care for others, communication is
- the most important factor. And regardless of the disagreements, bringing those disagreements to the
- table and talking through those issues is the best way for all of us to grow in this community.
- to thank all three of you for being here, for bringing your expertise here, and for staying here now.
- What's going to happen now is a community discussion. And so if you have something to say, please come
- up, find a microphone. You might want to share a comment, a question for one of our panelists, or a
- question for the gathering at large. Is that all right? Jenny, please.
- Hi, my name's Jennifer Bass, and I'm a concerned citizen and a parent, and I appreciate... They're just
- for the... They're for the videotape and not for us, so if you're having trouble hearing, just let everybody
- know. Okay, I can speak loudly. I appreciate everything that you all have said tonight, and my experience
- has mostly been in the school in this past
- semester actually, I feel like in the school system I've just become very aware of the majority rule
- mentality of the leadership in my children's school. And I've never been quite so aware of it before.
- Maybe it's never been so dominated by white Christian children as it is itself, high school.
- And I think that the smaller the minority, the easier it is for the teachers to not really understand
- that there are other children. I don't think anyone does anything deliberately. But there have been
- three or four actual situations that I can report this last year. And we've made lots of waves.
- You know, it's hard when you're a few parents making a lot of waves. But my question is for you, how
- do we get the leadership in the schools
- to help the teachers understand what this is all about because the teachers are coming from our own
- community. They've been educated the same way in a very homogeneous situation and I don't blame anyone.
- No one does anything deliberately to hurt any other children but I've seen it several times this year
- and I'm just wondering what can we do to have the leadership do some diversity training with our teachers?
- I think the kinds of things we need to look at and as I said I'm an educator first and that's whether
- it's working with teachers or students and I think it's very important that we address these issues
- very directly. As a teacher
- We need to remind the faculty that we have, we're celebrating, we finished celebrating Ramadan, Hanukkah,
- we have Kwanzaa and it's a matter of educating all, everyone involved in the school that all these different
- things are going on. When the choir teacher talks about I'm going to sing Christmas carols, well that's
- fine but what else are you going to add to the program to make sure that it's a balanced,
- and that all students and cultures are represented in the presentation. But we need to do it in such
- a way that it is not, we don't immediately get resistance. I don't want to stand up in front of a faculty
- and say, we're going to have diversity training now because the wall goes up and it makes it very difficult
- to really get to the place that we need to be.
- as a faculty and as a school community. So it's a matter of education on a daily basis from little things
- to students working with faculty members, students making presentations at faculty meetings and really
- bringing it home to understand what does it feel like for a student to go to school when X is happening.
- And that cuts even across,
- Veterans Day celebrations, you know, having maybe 30 different countries represented, how do those students
- feel as we're doing an incredibly patriotic presentation? How do we make sure that things are inclusive
- and not exclusive? And it's a matter of ongoing education, not just for the students, but for everybody
- involved in the school community.
- One of the things, and I guess this is sort of where we would part company, because part of what I would
- suggest is rather than try to do every single religious piece, do none of it. My husband is a IU professor.
- I don't know if you get this list, but he gets the list at the beginning of the school year of all the
- religious holidays. And he said, the first day of school should say no class for anyone if I'm going
- to honor every single religious holiday. So he gives everybody one free Friday for a quiz, and he says,
- You know, the Jewish kids can take the Christian holiday if that's better for you, but, you know, this
- is how we have to handle it. It's stressful for me when we compare. I get frustrated because when we
- say, well, Christians have Christmas and Jewish people have Hanukkah, well, those are not comparable
- religious experiences for those two groups of students. And so I don't see how the Jewish kids don't
- feel slighted still.
- on that. Easter is our greatest or our highest holy day, but it's not the best retail holiday. So we
- don't get two weeks then. And they don't put Easter on the front of the Lays potato chip bag because
- nobody buys potato chips for Easter. We only buy those for Christmas. But the point being, the simpler
- solution for me, but I'm not a principal, is eliminate all of it like they do.
- at some schools, our preschool, for example, eliminates all of it. It works beautifully. Now, where
- it's child-generated curriculum, when you talk about students' passions, that becomes another forum,
- I think, and another discussion when children are bringing to the classroom, you know, their stories.
- But that would be the piece of that I would want included into that question. If I could just speak
- briefly to it, I feel kind of like somewhere between the two of you on the question of
- to what extent should diversity be represented in school activities and to what extent should it be,
- should certain kinds of differences be eliminated in the name of just a commonality? You know, should
- there be exemptions for every kind of possible experience or not? You know, I would just say two things
- about that. The first is that we need to distinguish between kind of common curricular issues and the
- way that teachers make exemptions for students
- I make all kinds of exemptions for students if they're sick, if their grandmother dies, whatever. And
- it seems to me it's possible for any individual teacher to be maximally flexible and sensitive to a
- whole range of student concerns, including religion and lots of other things, and at the same time,
- you know, adhere to some sense of a common curriculum and certain common expectations. You know, the
- other thing that I want to say is that in addition
- to asking the question how does diversity get represented in the school, which is a very important question.
- When do we represent it and are we representing diversity in a truly diverse way? When is it best not
- to represent it? You know, is it appropriate to represent it by simply having a kind of additive approach?
- Well, if you do this, then you have to do this, this, this, this, this. You know, the other question
- is what content and seriousness we give to the idea of a common culture.
- So that the question is not simply how we represent what distinguishes us from one another, but how
- we understand and construct what we have in common. You know, what does it mean to be an American citizen
- or to be a citizen? You know, what are the freedoms that we enjoy? How did we get them? How do different
- diverse people from a whole variety of experiences struggle with each other, against each other, to
- create a set of freedoms that we all enjoy and can appreciate? That's not a question of how we represent
- diversity.
- but a question of how we understand our commonality as citizens. And it seems to me that it's equally
- important to do that as it is to worry about the diversity question. The diversity question in my experience
- in the public schools generally comes up when you have this boundary crossing problem, like something
- that seems to cross the line of separation of church and state or something that seems to offend someone
- is done. And then the question is how do we manage that most effectively? It seems to me that like the
- nature of life,
- is that there's constant crossing of boundaries, transgressions, offenses, and what we need to do is
- have a robust idea of civic education that teaches us how to deal with all of these things so that what
- it means to be a citizen is not simply kind of like waving to a flag or saying yes or no to whatever
- the president says, you know, but that has a richer meaning.
- If I may broaden the discussion beyond public schools because we have voucher programs that are increasingly
- found to meet constitutional challenges and
- we have lots of institutions that are not exactly state, but they're directly or indirectly state-funded
- and nonetheless faith-based. These institutions are likely to be growing. The question is, in between
- the desire to communicate diversity and teach and train people in habitual use of mutual respect and
- so forth, there is the countervailing desire to have homogeneity, to protect a certain focus on a set
- of values, and so you have
- You have in New York City Yeshiva University, and you have Fordham University, and you have schools,
- and you have Catholic schools, and so on. And these particular institutions, of course, have something
- else in mind and can be seen in the mosaic of similar institutions to, in fact, represent a certain
- form of diversity. But I just want to submit that it is not easy to separate state from other social
- functions. The idea of simple-minded separation of church and state doesn't define
- any major social function that is exercised in society with or without direct government funding has
- certain elements of shaping our collective social life and that gives it a role that is akin to a public
- policy, a public face, a public utterance, a public statement. So what I like particularly Jeff and
- Annette to address is the question, do you accept a vision of diversity
- that consists of mosaic stones that are quite homogeneous in their own training and their experience.
- Does that somehow add up to a tapestry that you find agreeable? Or what would you do to prevent the
- emergence of such an alternative model? Because the public school model is a monolithic model by its
- conception. And rightly so, perhaps. And I'm certainly not trying to make a point one way or the other,
- but just to raise this. Thank you so much.
- Your question is very profound and I agree with the sentiment behind your question and I offer an overly
- simplified account of the origins of the idea of religious liberty. We don't live in the 17th century
- anymore and in all kinds of ways in the 21st century we have interfaces between state and society for
- good and ill that
- enormously complicate the model of individual liberty, religious liberty, and otherwise that emerged
- in the early modern period. I believe, first of all, that
- I believe in associational freedom, but I think your question cuts deeper than, it's easy to say, well,
- these things, people are free to create Fordham University or Yeshiva University or Yeshivas or,
- you know, religious institutions. The question is how they function in a democratic society. Certainly
- they ought to be tolerated and people ought to be free to form them. I think the real hard and interesting
- question has to do with the extent to which they're publicly subsidized as they are.
- And I personally am not against the public subsidization of a whole range of civil society institutions,
- including faith-based institutions, okay? And in fact, I've done some work on the area of faith-based
- initiatives. I mean, you ask a complicated question, I don't want to kind of go too deeply into it.
- The really interesting discussions about faith-based initiatives, for example, that raise the general
- question, when is it appropriate for government to subsidize in some way or another
- a faith-based community kitchen or a faith-based employment center or a rehabilitation center for drug
- addicts, et cetera. I mean, there are certain criteria that are taken seriously in the law.
- And that are also, by the way, even taken seriously in the charitable choice provisions of
- federal legislation that have to do with to what extent these institutions adhere to federal
- nondiscrimination law. Do they require the recipients of the service that's being subsidized to,
- you know, to be a member of the religious institution that's providing the service? It seems to me that
- it is important to recognize that a whole range of institutions serve positive functions in a democracy.
- We need to have spaces of homogeneity.
- And they need to be not only valued but sometimes supported. But they only should be supported when
- they're consistent with certain basic democratic values. When they're not, I believe, people should
- be free. If you want to have, you know, if you want to have a social service agency, for example, that
- discriminates against, let's just say the Boy Scouts may be a good example, you know, that discriminates
- against gay people,
- Okay, on freedom of association grounds within certain parameters, you may be free to do that, but such
- institutions, in my opinion, are not to be subsidized by a democratic state, which is in the business
- of maintaining certain basic principles of equality and mutual respect, in my opinion. So it seems to
- me there need to be certain lines that are drawn in certain parameters. There are certain basic values
- that need to govern how we think about these things.
- Tony Campolo is a fairly well-known, in Baptist circles, Baptist preacher and a teacher at Eastern Baptist
- College, and he told a group of Baptist pastors in North Carolina last spring that we should be very
- wary of faith-based initiatives because it's like mixing manure and ice cream. It won't hurt the manure
- that much, but it'll ruin, ruin the ice cream. His point being, of course, that that is probably a one-sided
- approach. Government is the winner because we, as the church, assume some of their liability and debt.
- Now, as a Christian who believes I ought to be serving the poor, serving the needy, it's a debt I ought
- to be carrying anyway, so I shouldn't need that initiative. I am very, very leery, probably more leery
- of faith-based initiatives just because I know where that can go and the abuse
- possible on the part of the church from the abuse of other people. I said something in my presentation
- that I'm now reconsidering and that a case in point that I think you're referring to. I believe that
- public school is our country's best opportunity to be the kind of society that we want to be. A public
- school classroom is the labyrinth of American culture that we all imagine could be.
- But one of the things that's happening in families like my family, conservative Christian families,
- is that they are taking their children out of public school and either putting them in parochial school
- or homeschooling them. They have academic reasons for doing that and social reasons for doing that.
- Taken to its logical extreme, that ends up with what I think you're describing, a society where everybody
- is free as long as they hang out with people who believe exactly what they believe.
- Well, you know who ends up left there. It's the kids who are not being sort of cared for and raised
- by people who have any interest in how they grow up. And public school is those kids' best hope, I think.
- And so I think that, I don't know if I'm getting at what you're saying, I think that
- I think that parochial schools and those kinds of things are everybody's free choice. But I think that
- carried to their logical extreme, they create a society that nobody really probably wants. And that
- is where we all retreat and live in our own little sort of hovel. If it's a social hovel or a political
- hovel or an ethnic hovel, I don't know what kind of hovel it is. But we don't have to interact anymore.
- When I grew up in Bedford, 30 miles from here, I knew no Jewish people, and I knew one family of African
- Americans, and they had three boys, all brothers, and we all thought that we were the most racially
- open and diverse community we'd ever been in. That turned out actually not to be true. And, you know,
- my children are growing up in a much different arrangement, and have the opportunities
- four and five and six years old that I didn't have until I was out of seminary until I was 25 and 26
- years old because of where they go to school and where they live. So I don't know if that touches that
- or not at all. I go to South.
- And before that, I went to Jackson Creek Middle School. And in all honesty, I really need to say that,
- I mean, not to demean your very intense efforts on combating these problems, but I don't think they're
- that big a problem in elementary schools. Some people make them out to be, or in middle school, and
- especially not in high school. First of all, no matter what you do to improve the diversity in school,
- kids are always going to encounter these obstacles in life because you go out in the world outside of
- school and you see the department stores with the Christmas sales and you see all the houses around
- you lit up with the Christmas lights. I'm not exactly sure why Jews don't maybe think about putting
- up blue and white lights for Hanukkah, but they don't. Anyway, you see Christianity all around you and
- when you're a non-Christian, you can't escape from it.
- America was founded as a Christian nation, and that's the way the founding fathers intended it to be.
- And although it's a nation of a lot of diversity, Christianity is such an integral part of our culture
- that there's really no getting around it. And instead of an effort to really improve religious and cultural
- diversity in school by the kind of additive approach that you've discussed, the best way to do it is
- to honestly incorporate intense cultural
- education into the history curriculums. And instead of teaching about the Islamic faith, for example,
- as a faith, instead the Arab culture should be presented to students. And especially in this day and
- age where Arabs are getting a bad rap big time.
- by the media. It's important for students to see the Arab empires of the past and see the glory that
- they once had and that in many ways many of them still have. And the truth is that the majority of Arab
- countries are not terrorist countries. And the majority of Arabs and Islamists are not terrorists at
- all. And honestly, I don't know anybody that celebrates Kwanzaa. And I know many blacks and they're
- all Christians.
- There are people out there I think instead of simply putting up Kwanzaa decorations everywhere, maybe
- the history classes should make an effort to show us what Kwanzaa is because I'm not sure anybody knows
- what it is. I think that's important because I'm curious. I'd like to know. No, I see they have this
- thing that looks like a menorah that I see sometimes somehow connected to Kwanzaa. I'd like to know
- more about this. In any case, in conclusion, all I want to say is that it's important to kind of,
- incorporate religious diversity into schools but the planet is not going to explode if it isn't and
- I am 16 years old and I grew up without any Jewish influence in school and I didn't die I didn't kill
- myself I'm Jewish and I'm proud of it and I know I'm Jewish I don't care about anybody else and what
- they want me to be I mean school didn't have any effect on me there and I mean it didn't have any effect
- on most of these people I mean all of you I'm sure grew up in an environment
- where Christianity was the norm, especially in school, and if you weren't Christian, okay, you felt
- alienated sometimes, all right, then you grow up, you know who you are, and you're secure in that, and
- it's important to be secure in what you are. I mean, that's all I really have to say. Also, to address
- the question of gays in the Boy Scouts, I'd like to point out that straight men have a much bigger chance
- of molesting kids than gays do. Anyway, thank you.
- I need to do my job as a Christian pastor. That's a good word for me. Dan, please, yeah. I really want
- to address this to Dr. Isaacs. You're a bit about respect and allowing one another to be what we are without
- without being violent to one another. I'm sure you read recently, probably sick of having read all the
- commentary about the recent report of the decline in the Jewish population of the country and the world.
- And many religions, well especially Christianity and Islam at least, are very much interested in converting
- the world to their perspective. So one part of
- the nature of religion, of deeply held values, is the spread of this. And even as Jews, we're concerned
- not so much with spreading, but at least with not shrinking any. How do you incorporate this idea of
- letting people be what they want to be, and yet including the fact that one of the things that they
- want to be is evangelists? That's a hard thing for me to come to terms with. I don't know what to...
- I don't know what to say about that. I'd like to hear your perspective on that. Well, Dan knows me as
- Jeff. I'll respond as Jeff, not Dr. Isaac, OK? I am Jewish. Dan knows that. That guy was my son. I'm
- concerned about all kinds of evangelism. I guess as a Jew, I'm concerned about evangelism. But I'm mainly
- concerned about just the evangelical impulse in many aspects of life.
- And I don't know that I personally am more revolted by certain ways in which Christians seek to evangelize
- Jews than I am by the ways in which certain kinds of political ideologues of the left or the right might
- seek to evangelize on behalf of their points of view. It is a fundamental paradox of, let's just say,
- the modern conception of freedom that our society is constructed on the basis of that
- On the one hand, we talk about these values of pluralism and respect, equal liberty, whatever. On the
- other hand, the freedom that people enjoy also gives them the freedom to evangelize. And the evangelical
- impulse is not inherently, it's not understood by its practitioners as oppressive at all. In fact, it's
- liberating. There's a term that the theologian Stanley Hauerwas, he called killing with compassion.
- You know, the evangelical impulse is like, please let me save you. You know, please, let me save you.
- You know, I love you, let me save you, please, you know. But I don't have a solution to that problem.
- It seems to me that there we have a tension between certain understandings of religious practice, which
- are very important in the culture, and then other kinds of civic values, which, quite honestly, have
- some importance in the culture, but probably aren't as important as I wish they would be, and Bloomington
- United wishes they would be, and some other people in this room wish they would be. And what we need
- to do is to promote
- those values, but it doesn't seem to me there's any kind of shield that we can invoke to protect ourselves
- from the evangelical impulse. And it is true on some level that the freedom that particularly Christians
- in this country have, certain kinds of Christians, to imagine that people who don't share their religion
- are damned, and that only if they save us, you know, through various means, including coercive ones,
- can we not be damned. That impulse is like
- on like a deep level, a deep cultural level at odds with certain aspects of democratic citizenship.
- On the other hand, the desire to extirpate that or ban that or abolish that or prohibit that is also
- profoundly inconsistent with the values of a democratic society. And so what we live with is a world,
- you know, again, I'm going to quote Adam Kent Isaac, a world that,
- You know, that presents us with all kinds of insecurity and vulnerability. There's no quick fix. There's
- nothing that we can draw upon to kind of guarantee us that we can be who we want to be or protect ourselves
- from others. We need to learn how to interact better with others. We need to develop thick skins and
- at the same time develop a spirit of generosity that I think, you know, is in short supply. Wasn't that
- flowery? I'm not sure I said anything in response to your question. Yeah.
- as confused about it as I am. Oh, yeah. I had to make a profession of it. I want to invite people to
- respond to the comments that were from the floor, as well as to the panelists. I mean, I'm still thinking
- about the various points that Adam made. And we'll talk about the blue and white lights later. But I'm
- thinking now, I didn't know that it was Father and Son until he spoke. And then I knew. I was like,
- of course they're related.
- Not at all. Not at all. But he and I were going to have a talk. It was wonderful. Aren't you supposed
- to be watching your sister now? A couple of reflections on the concept of evangelicalism
- I might be accused by some of you of being a practitioner myself. But I think if we look back to Abraham
- and Moses, you could say that Moses was in front of Pharaoh, that he was being evangelical in his practice.
- And there is a very dynamic, creative process in the major divine religions, which are coming in and
- grabbing hold of the existing thought process, the existing order.
- and putting some heavy muscle to it. Now the issue is whether we're going to kill ourselves or do we
- say everybody puts the cards on the table and each person has a right to pick up which cards to pick
- up. As an evangelical, I would like at least one of the statements to be on the table is that there
- are lots of kinds of evangelicals.
- And there are those, like myself, I hope, who attempt to practice that piece of our faith. And evangelism
- is a core piece of Christian life for me. But it is possible to do that with respect, without violating
- the integrity of another person. And in the context of what I described as the priesthood of the believer,
- and it becomes my privilege to share faith back and forth,
- together, you share, I share, but both of us walk away from that free and with our integrity intact.
- And so, you know, I don't want to take responsibility for people who don't do that, but I also don't
- want to deny that, you know, that I, too, am an evangelical of that. If I could just, I honor what you're
- saying, and also Dan's comment, Dan's comment, Dan just spoke, is also a
- Dan Ensloh, not Dan Price, also another profound Dan, is a very important comment. I mean, religion,
- even in its evangelical forms, is a very powerful thing. And, you know, it has power to do great good
- as well as not, you know? And I do think that we need to learn and think more deeply about practices
- of respect and acceptance of difference, but I also think we need to learn about how to have a thicker
- skin, you know?
- And I'm not afraid of you. I mean, you know, I mean, in other words, I, you know, you, you know, be
- evangelical. That's okay. I can deal with that. You know, I could also deal with, you know,
- passion in, in, in, in public life is a very important thing. It's also the source of a lot of justice
- movements, you know, and sometimes it becomes like overwhelming, but you know, any love can be overwhelming.
- Anything good can be overwhelming. We have to learn how to kind of manage it, but I don't think we should
- try to, to eliminate it. So there, all these,
- very powerful forces in our society need to somehow be brought into some synergy which isn't destructive.
- Your way of being evangelical seems to me perfectly hospitable with the pluralism of a democratic society.
- There are other ways of being evangelical which are, you know, which are not as hospitable and they're
- also part of our world. We need to figure out ways of dealing with them. That's one of the reasons we
- have events like this.
- This recently happened to me and I'd love some responses. A parent that I know was telling me about
- their glee in visiting a classroom in December where unlike all of the other elementary school classrooms
- down the hallway, the theme of the decor in the classroom was under the sea.
- So there were seaweed sort of pasted everywhere and octopi hanging from the ceiling and little starfishes
- glimmering here and there. It was really impressive, they thought. But what made it truly impressive
- was that as you walked down the hallway, all of the other classrooms were red and green and had
- all kinds of seasonal things going on. And I told this to a few people, and I said, isn't that exciting
- that that can happen, that there are teachers who are doing that? And they said, Jewish people said
- to me, doesn't that seem kind of wrong? Isn't it wrong not to acknowledge the season at all in any way?
- And it made me think, and Adam's comment makes me pause also,
- Is this too much to do about maybe not such a big deal? But I'd love to hear from other people on this
- question. My foundation was completely based upon hatred of the sea. Right. They were discriminating
- against me. They're trying to offend me with this ocean paraphernalia. And I'm not terribly hurt by
- this. What am I going to do? Does anyone else want to share some responses?
- Tomorrow is the annual Christmas dinner where I work. You pay $8.50 and they hire a caterer and it's
- a wonderful affair. I personally won't be participating, but not because it's Christmas, mostly because
- the meal itself is a unique combination of sugar and traife, but I'm not at all offended by that. I
- work in a building of, there's a couple hundred people that work there, and there are
- There are no other Jews that work in the building. In fact, at all of Crane, I know of one other now.
- There were two until Susan moved away. But I don't feel the least bit put upon by that. Now, in part,
- it's because, as you said, we live in a society in which respect is pretty much the order of the day.
- If I were forced to work in a smaller cubicle than everybody else or something, that would probably
- be a different matter.
- I don't, like Adam, I don't find that to be problematic for me. Now, I understand that for a little
- kid, that's a different matter. And I'm not sure what to make of that exactly, except to say it's really
- up to the parents. I'd like to congratulate you for your parenting skills, by the way. You seem to have
- done a fine job. But I have a thick enough skin, in fact, not only
- not only does it not offend me, I almost feel kind of special being one of the people who stands out,
- not like everybody else there that attends this Baptist church or that Presbyterian church, and I don't
- attend any of that. I think that's a very different situation. And it doesn't make me feel isolated
- at all. It doesn't bother me. Nor does putting up Christmas decorations or anything like that.
- I don't like the idea, in fact, of including every holiday in order to be able to include Christmas.
- That's partly because I don't want Jewish holidays to get scooped up along with Christmas and ruined
- the way Christmas has been by the commercial interest. But it's also because I don't think that you
- have to tell the children you can't celebrate Christmas without acknowledging that
- somebody celebrates Ramadan or Pesach or whatever, Christians have their holidays and they're welcome
- to celebrate them. And since most of the people around here are Christians, that's going to show up.
- When high holy days come along, we have to take our kids out of school and get their assignments for
- the day and so on. And that's a problem and we live with it and they learn that
- grow up that way and that they're a little different than everybody else. And I don't think that's a
- problem. As Adam said, that's a life lesson that they need to learn anyway. So I'm going to say go ahead
- and celebrate Christmas and put up snow bells or whatever in the classroom and maybe even have Santa
- Claus come visit. And that's OK. It doesn't really bother me.
- well taken, if we look at it from a cultural perspective, then you can bring in lots of different things
- to the discussion. And when I was talking about recognizing other religions, when students are asked
- to be excused as allowed by state attendance laws, then there shouldn't be a criticism attached to that.
- Why are you getting out of school? Students shouldn't have to defend those family decisions. So again,
- when I take a
- a moment to educate and say, this holiday is happening as they do at IU. There's a website at IU that
- lists all the holidays. What does it mean? How will students be affected by that? Those are the same
- kinds of teaching things that we do in the schools. This holiday is coming up. Students may be asked
- to be excused. This is the reason why. And it's not a point of criticism or exclusion. It's a point
- of family choice and celebration in a particular way.
- Another comment? I think one of the problems with these kinds of discussions is that so often they're
- centered around how people feel. You know, the reason why we should have religious pluralism is because
- some people feel offended if we don't. And I don't think that from the state's point of view that that
- makes any sense. You know, the state is not in the business of not offending people. The state is in
- the business of making sure that we have a society that functions.
- So I think and especially with the anecdotes and things like that, well, I don't feel offended by it
- so it should be okay or whatever. Some other kids might feel offended by it so we shouldn't do that.
- From a civil society standpoint, I don't think that's a very valuable or viable argument. I think it
- has to come down to what are the state's interests? And the state's interest is not to promote one religion
- over another. So if the reason why somebody wants something to happen is because it's based on some
- religious text,
- It's not in the state's interest to support that. If it's based on something having to do that will
- support the society overall, if it's based on a value that the state can use as a foundation, then that's
- the reason why we should do it. You know, whether you're in the school or whether you're in the workplace
- or whatever, that all comes from the state. It all comes from law. You know, employers are not going
- to start having, you know,
- you know, diverse events just because they feel like it. It's generally because of cultural trends that
- have happened, part of which has been the legal side of it. So, I think, I guess bottom line is to just
- try to clarify in these discussions when you're talking about things that have to do with the state,
- get away from the personal and the sort of feeling side of it, that part of the discussion is valuable
- but in terms of,
- making decisions for the state, I don't see that as a viable argument. Whenever someone says the state,
- I feel I must comment. It's my profession. I think I agree with you particularly in so far as you're
- wary of having public discussions or making public policy on the basis
- basis of sentiments or the articulation of sensitivities or grievances or something along those lines.
- On the other hand, I don't know what the interests of the state are and it depends in part on what kind
- of state we're talking about and how we define the state and part of how we define the state depends
- on how we act to create or to sustain a kind of state. It seems to me a democratic state is based on
- the idea that there are certain fundamental rights
- And if we push the question, where do those rights come from, we're going to start talking about how
- it is that people feel a sense of indignity or indignation, which derives from a sense of being offended.
- So it seems to me the question of offense should never be the center of discussion. And it's quite boring,
- you know, for people to just have these rap sessions where they talk about how badly their feelings
- are heard and couldn't we
- organize things in a way that no one's feelings will hurt. I completely agree with you, but I also think
- we need to be clear about what a democratic state is. And a democratic state is a state in which citizens
- are recognized as having a certain integrity and a certain dignity. And I don't think we can completely
- separate that from the question of offense, you know. This is sort of in line with what you just said.
- I just wanted to say we all have a right to speak out.
- And it is so important if someone makes an offensive remark or gives a faulty comment, it is so important
- that we call them on it. You can do it politely, but nevertheless, you do not get a fallacious statement.
- You don't let it go out to other people because it will be believed. So when something is said that
- you feel is wrong, the time to correct it is then. Now take the person aside later privately
- You do it as much as you can within the group in which it was stated and you correct them with it and
- you just try to put things straight. And we're all individuals, we all have a right to say what we want
- but we should be very considerate of the other person and occasionally we have to set things straight.
- Ruth and her husband Bob were founding members of Bloomington United
- I mean, this whole thing is taking place in part because a small number of people, including them, did
- that with the first pamphlets that led to the formation of this group. I mean, they did that individually
- but also with other people. Thank you, Ruth. That's why I suggested that his description of evangelical
- was not entirely accurate, that he needed to sort of, right?
- You. I was responding to someone else's question, but whatever. Go on. You go on. You're talking. I'm
- just listening. But I keep feeling like these Bloomington United things, what we preach needs to happen
- inside the discussions that we're talking about. So you made some comments about evangelical. And I
- felt myself saying, oh, that's not entirely true. But then I thought I'll let it go. But then I thought,
- no, I can't let it go. That's OK. Because that's what we're doing here. Don't let anything go.
- That's OK. But when you look at the tape, you'll see that I said some evangelicals.
- And so, those kinds of qualifications are the way that I talk. And so, I mean, and I'll stand corrected
- if I didn't. But if you took offense, I apologize and I'm glad you're calling me on it now. Let's so,
- I mean, yeah. Yeah, that's okay, obviously. But I want us to be able to dial on here, so. Yeah. Yeah,
- please. I'm trying to think about how to make this comment without giving,
- Adam more press. He's gotten so much attention for his comments here, but, uh, this is, uh, uh,
- for Sarah, I think, um, I've been reflecting tonight on what it was like for me as a member of, uh,
- as a child in a small lumber town in Southern Oregon that was totally homogeneous.
- completely unlike any college town. Growing up, learning only about the point of view that reflected
- that community. And then when I was older, 12 or 13, moving to the San Francisco Bay area and starting
- to go to school, which saved my soul.
- because I had to encounter ethnicity. I had to encounter all sorts of diversities. I had to encounter
- the dirty speech that became free speech movement from Berkeley. I had to encounter the gay movement,
- the anti-war movement. I had to encounter all sorts of things that I had learned tacitly to be subversive
- and wrong and different. And while I think it's very important
- for us to think about the sensibilities of the minority members of our community. I think it's important
- for the majority members of the community to learn more about the diversity that is our world if we're
- going to have a pedagogy for democratic citizenship where we can encounter one another robustly, we
- can be agonistic short of antagonistic,
- and we can be respectful of one another. And so I guess this statement has kind of a tacit suggestion
- and question to you about what's at stake for the majority population of your student body to learn
- about these issues of diversity.
- As you pointed out, I see it only as an advantage where the majority has that opportunity to share ideas,
- to talk openly in a safe environment, to see, hear, and appreciate the differences that are around us.
- As Jeff pointed out, a basis for doing that is the commonality. All students
- in this building are attending this school for the sole purpose of graduating from high school. That's
- what's out there. But on that path of reaching graduation, there will be lots of opportunities to gain
- new knowledge and get new information and share in different experiences that they might not have at
- some other place. When we look at our student population and the
- and the activism in our student body. You can't shy away from things. You are involved in some way,
- one way or another. It's in posters. It's in different meeting announcements. It's providing lots of
- opportunities to observe initially, probably, and hopefully,
- participate in some way but I only see that as an advantage with the student population and with the
- teaching staff who is supportive of those kind of conversations. We make mistakes. We, all of us do
- and there have been times that we've had to step back and rethink an event or something that may have happened.
- But I think it's very important, as you pointed out, when we see something that's not right, we take
- the time to educate and make sure it doesn't happen again. And we use those opportunities to discuss
- issues. But again, it's a growing opportunity for everybody in that school. I think we'll have just
- one more comment and then our time is almost up.
- My name is CJ Hawking. I'm a part of Bloomington United and felt compelled to follow on the gentleman's
- comment. I moved here almost four years ago to the date in the opposite direction you did. I moved from
- Chicago to what I came to learn as being the Bible Belt. And I didn't know that. I didn't know that
- Bloomington was a part of the Bible Belt, but indeed it is.
- I'm also a United Methodist pastor. And coming out of a context where it's very eclectic in Chicago,
- it's been very shocking to me to see ornaments being made in the schools, to see Secret Santas, and
- to hear about a choir, a public school choir singing Christmas carols.
- boggles my mind. And because we are an educated, somewhat sophisticated community with the influence
- of the university, I wonder if Bloomington cannot elevate not only the discussion but the practice to
- be much more true
- to what a public school is designed to be and it's not designed to be a church or a synagogue or any
- of those things. My daughter is five years old and she's in a private kindergarten right now and I'm
- just bracing myself for when she hits first grade and is inundated with Christian arrogance
- and dominance because that's not at all how we intend to raise her. So it's very difficult for me to
- come into this environment even though my faith dominates and to somehow feel comfortable in what I
- perceive to be a very closed, exclusive, almost hostile,
- environment to anyone who doesn't fall in this 96% majority range. I have three children in public school
- in Monroe County and so cumulatively we're in our tenth year, you know we're in our tenth classroom.
- I have a sixth grader, a second grader, and a kindergartner and in the same school I find this experience
- is brand new the next year.
- It has everything to do with what teacher is in that classroom. We will have one child in one classroom
- where there is nothing, you know, nothing. It is not present, and then we'll have another child in that
- same year in that same school in a classroom where, you know, the Santa Claus display, you know, the
- Santa Claus collection is there. And we, the very first question that was asked is what can we do as
- parents, and I don't know that we ever answered that, but I think what you do is go to the teacher and explain
- and express your concerns. Now, as a Baptist pastor, I go and express these concerns, and they just
- stare at me with their mouth open like, what are you talking about? We were going to have you come sing
- or something. So it just depends on that. But it's very interesting because our school is populated
- by the families of IU professors, which would have made me think we would be the school to sort of elevate
- the discussion.
- And then I have two teachers in my church who are the music teachers in Greene County School System.
- And there, if they don't do Christian music, they hear about it from their parents. So it's, I mean,
- it all depends on what school, what classroom you're at, I think. And I'm sympathetic to a principal's
- predicament because she's got parents coming in saying, why is the Santa Claus display up? And then
- the teacher is the next one in saying, why can't I have my Santa Claus display up? It's my classroom.
- So it's a predicament. It seems to me, though, that the issue really isn't the managerial question of
- how to deal with those delicate situations, but really the question of what is the function of a public
- school. And, you know, I think you articulated a very powerful understanding of that. It's not clear
- to me that that is the Monroe County School Corporation's understanding.
- It may be its understanding at the level of some mission statement somewhere in someone's drawer or
- something, but it's not clear that that's the understanding in terms of public policy. How the school
- corporation is run, you know, how every school principal understands his or her mission or vocation,
- you know, and it seems to me that there we need to work much harder to deal with the school corporation
- and to continually raise these issues, you know, and I,
- If anyone has ideas about this, by the way, you know, people in Bloomington United have talked about
- this for a couple of years and we used to have a subcommittee trying to work on this and in some small
- way this event is the outcome both of that process and the failing of that process to come up with anything
- more substantial beyond a conversation like this, which is a wonderful conversation. If people do have
- ideas or desires to become involved in this, I think this is a really, really important question, you know.
- how do our schools understand their civic mission? And I'm going to be really quick because we're probably
- running out of time, but it seems to me this is partly a question of diversity issues, but it goes beyond
- that. You know, I just want to say, you know, my friend Bob Ivy, who asked the question before, spoke
- on the courthouse today, on the courthouse lawn at a small demonstration about a potential war in Iraq.
- And, you know, it was a decent-sized crowd. I'm sure you'll see a paper about this on the,
- cover the H.T. tomorrow and there was some media there. There weren't that many people there. We could
- have an interesting conversation about why there weren't more people there. Obviously a lot of people
- don't share that point of view, but there was an effort to participate in a public discourse about whether
- our country is going to go to war. This is a really important thing. Today is International Human Rights
- Day in December. It doesn't have to do with Christmas, but arguably it's something of some significance.
- How many classes
- In this entire school corporation, do you think had a discussion about International Human Rights Day
- or should we go to war in Iraq or if there's a demonstration on the square, what do you think about
- it? How many schools are going to talk about this? How many classroom tomorrow? I'll bet like none,
- you know. There's too many other important things to talk about. There's something wrong with this.
- everybody for participating tonight and I see someone who might want to say a quick word standing up
- is that right John? A quick quick word. First of all I'm John Malloy I'm superintendent of schools for
- MCCSC and I appreciate the dialogue this evening especially when public schools are always the topic.
- One thing in coming to Bloomington that somewhat disappointed me is the diversity of the community.
- I really thought with the university that the schools would be more representative of the community.
- And quite frankly, we're only about 17% when we talk about diversity. And so in some ways, our schools
- are reflective of the community and the culture in which we live.
- And unfortunately in this community because many individuals were born and raised here and many of our
- teachers are in our schools teaching from the standpoint of their experiences. And many schools around
- the country not just in Bloomington are extremely reflective of the teachers in those schools and generally
- those teachers come from a close community if not that community.
- I can say that the communities where I have worked have been very diverse, much more so than Bloomington.
- I've been in Pike Township in Indianapolis. We were roughly 45% minority. Michigan City was roughly
- 30%. And one thing that was very important in the schools where I operated is to have not just tolerance
- but teaching acceptance. One of the things that we've done as of November 21st is we have kicked off
- what I call Human Understanding and Diversity Advisory Committee. It's made up of approximately
- 30 individuals, half of which from the MCCSC, who will be responsible for implementing curriculum and
- directing any kind of recommendations coming from the advisory committee. And the other half are from
- a broad base group in the community of which the Bloomington United is represented. Also, Rabbi Wasserman is
- member of that committee. And the idea is at least to give a charge to that committee to focus in four
- particular areas and certainly they have the flexibility to go into other areas as well. But very quickly,
- looking at the professional development for administrators and teachers. Secondly, to look at integrating
- multicultural education into our curriculum.
- K-12. Looking at the issue of attracting, hiring and retaining people of color, we only have about 3
- percent of our adults that represent people of color. The state average is 6 percent and certainly that's
- a whole other topic talking about trying to
- to attract people of color into the field of education when we know that many of them see the pay as
- being very low and not competitive with other areas. And the fourth, probably the most important of
- all, is sensitivity training to the adults and students of our community. So I can tell you that the
- school system as well over the next few years during my tenure will take this issue very, very seriously.
- And hopefully over the course of time, we can move to an awareness with our faculty, not in the area
- of trying to push acceptance of religion, but an awareness. We can certainly focus on study of religion
- and not the practice, and certainly the academics and not
- a devotion and so I think it's a very important piece that at least the schools begin to address and
- I think over the course of time if we were to reconvene this particular August group that maybe when
- we talk about public schools, especially here in Monroe County, we'll have an entirely different picture
- than we do today.
- for a great dialogue. Thank you. Don't leave without a cookie. Also, there are some materials on the
- table there that I'll invite you to look at and even to take. They're from a website called freedomforum.org
- and it has some wonderful materials from the First Amendment Center on public schools and the teaching
- of religion. So thank you and good night.