I think everything we do is just a form of giving an accent. Oh, I like that idea. All we try to do
from moment to moment is fulfill our desires. Love it. Which makes us higher.
tonight. Right. Right. Well, thanks to our band, Chautauqua Band for playing a little opening number
there. Did I miss them? No, no. It was pretty short. I thought I was going to get to direct them, so
they just stopped. Do it. Do it. Do them. Do them. Do a little more. The audience requests a little bit more.
All right. Tonight we have a great show coming up for you. We have Matt Bruner, who is the president
of the Hoosier Rights Campaign on the IU campus. And we also have Joel Ricus, who is the executive director
of the Shalom Community Center in the community kitchen.
A warm thanks and welcome to both of those guests tonight for coming on. And later on, we'll be getting
to talk to the Chautauqua Band as well. John Smith couldn't make it tonight as it had set on the flyers.
He had a prior engagement, I believe. So hopefully, we'll catch him on a later show. Which without much
further ado, we have a little video piece prepared about the equality equal rights rally that Matt Bruner
and our producer, Gabe Rivera, went to check out about a week ago. All right.
Some people say our marriage is the cause. I don't know if I like that idea.
Hi, my name is Matt Bruner. I'm the president of the Hoosier Rides campaign here at IUB. We're just
about ready to go to Indianapolis for the rally at the State House to protest SJR7, the Constitutional
Amendment ban on gay marriage in the state of Indiana.
When I think of what has transpired since last year, we were so free on the bus with that damnable resolution.
We could think of virtually nothing else. Hi, I'm Annette Krauss, and I'm a member of PFLAG, Parents,
Friends and Families of Lesbians and Gays. And one of the reasons that I came down here today is because
I want to assure that all families are treated equally. Back in Germany during Hitler's era, one of
the first things that he did was institute a ban against marriage.
against the Jews and I don't want to see that happen in this country. Thank you.
We are out here in support of all athletes, whether they be gay, bisexual, transgender, or lesbian.
We are just out here in support of all athletes.
No problem. I'm glad to be here. Now, you're the president of the Hoosier Rights Campaign. Could you
tell us a little bit about what you do and how you came about so people in the audience can watch the
show later on and have a better idea? Yeah, sure can. Me and a group of people last year started the
Hoosier Rights Campaign. It's basically a group on IU's campus. We work closely with other Indiana gay
support groups like Indiana Equality and the Human Rights Campaign. Basically, I started the group because
there's a lot of gay groups on campus for support issues or whatever it may be, but no other group on
campus does any political advocacy or education really. And I figured that was a group that really needed
to perform because there's so many issues in the state of Indiana on campus and throughout the country
that affect
gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender families every day. And there's legislation popping up all across
the country. And these issues need to be dealt with, and they need to be dealt with quickly. And especially
here in the state of Indiana and on campus. So that's why I, along with other people, started the group.
How long ago did you start the group? I started the group about a year and a half ago. It didn't really
get off of its feet until this semester.
What was the actual, like, was there one moment of actual impetus for getting the group? I know you're
a political science major, so that I'm sure had something to do with it, but was there an actual single
experience or event that sort of drove you to start, to form the group here to take care of the issues?
Yeah, I think there was a lot of variety of things that actually led me to start the group. I mean,
I came out as gay at the end of my freshman year here at IU.
I was already a political science major at that time. So activism and politics were always part of my
life, but not really the gay rights aspect of that. But after I came out, I really started to look at
the issues, gay marriage, nondiscrimination policies, hate crimes. And it just struck me as a lot of
gay lesbian individuals have no rights right now. And it's something that, as a country, we need to
work together and to make sure that those rights are extended to all
And I think that was the major factor that led me to start the group. Plus, I was going to other groups
on campus, like out and that kind of thing. And they do a great job of support. But there was a lack
of activism there. And that's something I wanted to see on campus. That's good. That's good. So since
you started a year and a half ago, you're starting to gain more members now? Or is there still sort
of a failure to reach everything?
Yeah, I mean, I think the issue of activism on colleges campuses are always kind of hard to get people
involved with, whether it be for whatever issue, whether it be gay rights or not. Activism is something
that is in real short supply these days, I think. And starting a new group is always a hard process.
on IU's campus, you have to start the group, go through all the paperwork, and then start doing the
outreach, which is also important in every student group. And we're definitely doing a lot better job
of doing outreach, partly by Jackie Leach, my outreach director, sitting in the front row. She has been
doing a tremendous job. And hopefully, with her and everyone else on my executive board this year, we
will continue to grab more attention
and get involved with more people with this very, very good cause. It seems kind of fortuitous that
you guys have been going on for a year and a half at this point when there's all this legislation coming
through right now. So at least there's already a vehicle in place to fight against it on campus. I was
wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about the state resolution, what's going on in the
state house right now, just so we all
I would love to. Right now, the gay marriage bill that would ban gay marriage in the state of Indiana
is SJR7. That stands for Senate Joint Solution. And it got brought up in 2005. It got passed by the
House and the Senate. And now, the constitutional process in the state of Indiana is it has to get approved
by two consecutive state legislatures.
So it passed in 2005. The midterm elections are in 2006. So once those newly elected representatives
take their office in 2007, they will need to get passed again in 2007. And if it gets passed in 2007,
then it will go on to the voters in the election in 2008. So a referendum will take place? Yeah, like
the referendum will be on the 2008 ballot.
And so the earliest that this bill could get passed is in 2008. But also the process says that if the
language of the bill changes one word, then the process has to start over again. So that's the main
strategy behind the groups in Indiana to try to delay the amendment, try to change the language to make
sure that, you know,
to make sure that it gets delayed. Is the amendment basically just worded as such to ban gay marriage
then, or is it like to distinguish why marriage has to be like a marriage between a man and a woman?
I mean, do you know what the language is? The language is marriage shall consist of only one man and
one woman, and the legal incidence of marriage shall not be allowed. So that the language legal incidence
thereof basically has been used
throughout the country and other states' efforts to amend the constitutions to ban gay marriage. But
a lot of attorneys and lawyers have decided that would probably cover partner benefits and civil unions
as well. So that's why the language at this amendment is so problematic, because if it gets passed in
that language, then it will basically say that civil unions, partner benefits,
and same sex marriage will not be allowed. Obviously, that will be up for the interpretation of the
courts and the legislature. When you talk about partner benefits, I just want to make sure that I understand
that everyone in the audience, at home audience understands. What are the exec rights that are at stake
here? I mean, because I know that sometimes you can think of them very simply like, oh, execs, it's
better that way. For instance, if I was
have been partners with another woman for 30 years. And she's in the hospital, but I might not be able
to see her because we're not married. Is that something that could happen? Exactly. And that's something
that has happened time and time again, unfortunately. It's very sad that you can be in a partnership
with someone for a good majority of your life. And if your partner were to fall ill, in some states,
you were not allowed to see your partner because you were not as close.
because the US does not consider same-sex couples to be equivalent to opposite-sex couples. And that
is just one of the many rights that are at stake when you talk about same-sex marriage, whether it be
on the state level or the federal level. To go back to domestic partner benefits, basically those are
the rights that the states grant you.
So when you say the words I do, on the federal level, you get over 1,500 rights going from filing joint
taxes, social security benefits. Like, for example, if one of your partners were to die, your spouse
would not get the surviving benefits. Your immediate family would, or it would just go back to the government.
So there's tons of rights. Transfer of property is another right that is at stake. If your partner were
to die, and if you don't have the money to draw up all the wills and all the legal documents that is
needed to transfer that property, you can lose the property as well. I mean, it's unfair. You could
be with a partner for 50 years, and one partner dies, and then your immediate family or someone else
in your family can just say,
Well, the property is mine because they are not really together. Right. Because the government does
not recognize same-sex relationships in the same way. Right. So how do you think this relates to the
separation of church and city? How do you place the issue at hand into that world of marriages are with
this TGV Inland? And churches, where?
many churches do. So how does the government justify, I guess, interfering in that sense with something
that's supposed to be from its inception? I mean, I know there's already texts on the book and whatnot,
but just what's your opinion on the separation of church and state within the gay marriage issue? Well,
I think that's a really good question. And the separation of church and state issue is
being brought up now. And unfortunately, that line needs to be in separation of church and state. You
can't really see it very well these days. But that definitely has a huge impact on the gay rights issue,
especially the same-sex marriage issue. Because the number one obstacle to same-sex marriage right now
is the religious issue. I mean, as soon as you hear the word marriage, you automatically think of the
religious connotation
And unless, until we can educate people on this issue, that it's not about the religious issue so much,
it's about the civil rights issue. It's about granting same-sex couples the rights that they need to
support their family, to raise their children the way any other family would. And until we can start
educating people on this issue, that civil marriage and religious marriage are two totally different things.
Because the separation of church and state is there, so government is not influenced directly by religion.
And religious institutions will always have the right to deny a couple to get married in their institution.
They can always say no, whether they be same sex or opposite sex. I think that's a really good point,
and I think oftentimes
But that's a point that's lost in general, because you always think of this as the religious right,
so value driven. And a government really can't legislate morality, even if their morals are corrupt,
as the case may be. That's something that I've always thought is really interesting about why we're
so concerned about the state of marriage. It's like so many marriages end in divorce anyhow right now.
50%. Or people never. It just seems like we're in a different place now. It's really the tax brackets
and the actual
present moment that needs to be dealt with, not what we think the institution of marriage really is
or has come to in our country. Yeah, I mean, you have a good point. I mean, I think a lot of people
missed the point here. It is about granting same-sex couples the rights that they need. They can't wait
40 years from now to wait for this religious argument to go away. They can't wait. Their family needs
these rights now. Their children needs these rights now. And that's what is important here.
You can't wait for this religious argument to go away, because it's always going to be there. Marriage
is always going to have a religious connotation. And we have to stick with the separation of trip and
stay, and talk about the rights that are at stake. Because ultimately, marriage has a lot of religious
background. You can go to a church and get married, but ultimately, you will still have to go to the
courthouse or wherever, sign the document, pay your $15, and get the marriage.
and then you get the rights. And even if same-sex marriage were to pass, it would not require religious
institutions to marry same-sex couples. They will always have that right because in this country we
have a separation of church and state. We're running a little short on time, but I wanted to ask you
first, when and where does the Hoosier Rights Campaign meet?
Yeah, sure. We meet every other Monday on IU campus in the Indiana Memorial Union. Our next meeting
will be not this coming Monday, but the next Monday in this Pasifras room of the IMU at 830. And also,
it would probably be that now would be about the time to, I guess it's already past time to lobby the current
administrators and elected officials, but when donating that next election, people should be
more conscientious of how people feel about that issue if it's close to them, right? Because it will
be these people that decide it. Yeah, the time to lobby our state legislature, there's still time left
this term. The current legislature will not end for another about three weeks. So there's still time
to lobby our legislatures. The Who's Your Rights campaign actually was in the next week or two.
we'll be getting a group of people to go to Indianapolis and lobby the representatives that we need
to lobby. And if you need more contact information or more information on the Who's Your Rights campaign,
the email address is www, well, actually it says IUHRC at indiana.edu. All right, thank you very much,
Matt. We're going to have to talk to Matt again.
short video on the segment before we'll be talking to Joel Rikus, dealing with his work at the Shalom
Center. Come right up.
Hi, I'm Joel Riccas and welcome to the Shalom Community Center. Let's go downstairs and I'll show you
around. Yeah, well welcome again to the Shalom Center. The center was created in 2000.
to create safe daytime shelter for people who are homeless. The community realized over the course of
several years that although we had overnight shelter in this town, there was no place for people who
were experiencing homelessness to go during the day. That was the original motivator, if you will, that
brought the center to life. Since then, it's grown very rapidly into a community center that serves
all who are living in poverty and experiencing its many manifestations such as hunger and homelessness.
The center does a variety of things, all interrelated. One major area that we work with is meeting basic
needs. We provide a mailing address for those who have none. We have telephones for people to use, computer lab,
diapers and formula for parents of young children, laundry facilities, all those things that most of
us take for granted. But if you're living in poverty, it can be a very large barriers to overcome. You're
looking right now at our weekly schedule board. Another major area of activity is bringing in agencies
that people use a lot but may have difficulty getting access to.
For any of us, I think negotiating the community in terms of all the systems and institutions can be
a daunting task. And we recognize that pretty quickly and choose to bring those agencies here. They
set up here in the Shalom Center, see people on a walk-in basis, no appointment needed. And we found
it's a very effective way to introduce people, if you will, to the larger institutions in the community
and get them connected to services that they
in many cases desperately need. Let's take a walk. This is our main room which doubles as a place for
people to be during the day and also serves as our dining room. We do breakfast and lunch daily to an
average of 200 to 250 people a day.
very, very busy place. Let's go into the kitchen. This is one of the jewels of the Shalom Center. We
have a fully equipped commercial kitchen and this is where the meals are prepared and put out. This
activity is done primarily with volunteers from the community, from every segment of our community.
We have students from IU,
We have folks from churches, people from the business community, all working together to get the meal
out, if you will. A very labor-intensive operation, but a labor of love. And let me introduce you to
a couple of folks. This is Ron Kerner, who manages our kitchen and coordinates our hunger relief efforts.
And at least one of our volunteers, this is John Davenport over here in the corner, getting coffee ready
for lunch. John has been with us for a long time. And a couple of others.
Let's go on out here. The gentleman sitting right there with the glasses is Ken Heller. He's one of
our volunteer job counselors. We work with people every day around employment. It's a priority need
for many of our guests.
That work is done exclusively at this point with community volunteers from all, again, all parts of
the community. And they do tremendous work. This is our computer lab and actually you get an action
shot of the Shalom Community Center staff. This is Nancy, Linda,
Patty and Rita. Hi there. And a lot happens in here. This is a place where people can come in and work
on getting a resume crafted and printed out, do some educational work. And given our limited space,
it also doubles as a staff meeting room. And the family dining room during lunch. And the family dining
room during lunch. Yes. So it's lovely to see all of you.
And right behind you is the serving line. That's our steam table. And we have a wonderful meal every
day. We put great emphasis on putting out a very balanced, nutritious meal each day. And we
try to accommodate those with special dietary needs, including those who are vegetarians. And again,
as with most programs that
work in the broad area of hunger relief. We are at the end of the food chain, so to speak. And what
that means is we serve a lot of people, a lot of food that is rescued. We get most of our food from
the Hoosier Hills Food Bank, which supplies most of the area's nonprofit feeding programs. And that's
supplemented by donations from the community.
and a small amount of shopping from the commercial supermarkets. Last year we served nearly 50,000 meals
and our average cost per meal was 42 cents. So very efficient operation in terms of getting large quantities
of food to people who need it the most.
I had mentioned earlier primary function is providing services for people who are experiencing homelessness
and one of those very fundamental services is acting as a mailing address again something most of us
would take for granted but if you are homeless getting a safe stable place to get your mail is a big
deal and so at any given time we receive mail for somewhere between a hundred and a
Well, this is Dee. Dee is a legal aid intern from IU Law School. We, this year, entered into a very
innovative partnership between the IU Law School and Indiana Legal Services, which is the nonprofit
legal services corporation in Indiana, to try to provide legal services to people living in poverty.
It's, as we all know, I think a tremendous unmet need.
People living in poverty have significant legal issues and are typically underrepresented. So this is
a great partnership in terms of getting information and resources in the legal area to people that need
them. Again, as with all our services, very user-friendly services are provided on a walk-in basis.
Dee is here.
Monday through Thursday and people can walk in without an appointment and present whatever legal need
that they have and have a good shot of at least getting some of those issues clarified and where necessary
cases are then referred to Indiana Legal Services to be picked up and carried from there. So D is one
of our treasures, one of our great assets as with all our agencies.
since opening has provided, with its package of basic necessities, free laundry facilities for anyone
in the community in need. And on a typical day, somewhere between 10 and a dozen people do laundry.
So it's significant usage, and we're hoping to expand that. One of the issues we've had as we've grown
over these first few years is space.
and should let the community know that we are expanding across the street. We will be retaining this
space that we're currently in, but it will be devoted exclusively to our hunger relief programs, very
specifically the breakfast, lunch, food pantry operations, and beginning job training effort using the
food service industry as a vehicle. All our other services will move across the street,
110 South Washington, which is just at the end of the driveway. All the basics like phones, computers,
mail, laundry facilities, et cetera, will be over there. And all our visiting social service agencies,
which number now, somewhere between 20 to 24 each month, will be setting up shop across the street.
So in effect, beginning in March, we will have our campus where people will be able to come here for meals
across the street for the other services that they need. So very excited about that. Thanks for joining
us here at the Shalom Community Center. We always welcome visitors and if you're able, please stay for
lunch. We love to feed people. Please come and visit us again.
that was really impressive that you guys do that much for the community. I'm wondering how this came
about in Bloomington. Are there comparable services in other communities, or do we have just a really
good example here of how a community can work to serve its less fortunate members? Good question. There
are similar programs in other parts of the country, more typically found in large cities. For example, there's a
a very good program in Indianapolis called Rising House, which is actually a bigger version of the show
I'm saying. First part of your question, what the answer alluded to, I think, in the video, homelessness
now around the country, and here in Bloomington, in terms of being a major social issue, it was over
20 years old, and you're exactly right, it was only in the mid-80s,
So we've had shelter here in Bloomington since the mid-80s, but people noticed pretty quickly
I became aware that although we have overnight shelter, we have no place for people to go during the
day. Would it be especially hard for older people or people with short hair to go to campus?
Hard for anybody. I think those who stay in our shelters, which typically open at four o'clock in the
afternoon and close at eight in the morning, it's a shuffle when you think about trying to get your
things from one place to another, find a place to eat during the day, just a place to be
on the winter. There was a long conversation here in Bloomington that predates me on various parts of
the community, communities of faith, for example, government, others in the nonprofit sector, really
based on that central question of where do people who are experiencing homelessness go during the day?
And related to that, where do they find the tools that we all need to conduct our personal business?
Right, if you were unemployed, it would be
pretty difficult to get a job without having a mailing address. I never thought of that before until
I was watching the video. And many things, again, most of which we all take for granted, access to a
telephone or computer. Those are major obstacles in your experience in homelessness. So that was the
conversation that took place in this community, a very dynamic conversation that, as I understand it,
bubbled up and down over the years, late in 1991.
It intensified, and two major parties came together to form the Shalom Center. Our current host, the
Fresh Nightly Methodist Church, stepped forward and said, listen, we have some space, and we think this
is a worthy mission, and we'd be happy to support it by offering space. The former Shelter Inc. stepped
forward and said, well, we don't have any space, but we've got some staff that we could lend out to
get this started, and that's how it was created. That's great, that's great.
It wouldn't just be homeless people that you're helping. It's probably also people just in circumstances
of extreme poverty or poverty even, or just missing a paycheck for a couple days. Precisely, yeah. The
Center has had a very rapid evolution. Again, it opened its doors in January of 2000. And the beginning
premise was based on that conversation that I just described, was to provide a space for people experiencing
homelessness. And very specifically, in the first
the first couple of months it was really targeted for those who were staying in the adult shelter. We
realized pretty quickly when we started with 12 people or 15 people a day and then next week it had
turned into 25 or 30 and the following week 40 to 50 and then more and more people began coming in who
were not necessarily homeless today so the common denominator was everyone was experiencing poverty
in some way
And we realized, well, we need to grow and we need to adapt. So yes, today it's a center for, it's open
to anyone in the community, but very specifically is targeting those who are living in poverty. And
that's men, women, and children. We have a diverse group of people come in every day ranging from infants
to elders.
It's more difficult in a town like Bloomington to meet the needs of everyone experiencing poverty because
of IU being there. And I know that it seems like you get a lot of transient people through, you know,
like somebody that goes to school for three years or something and then experiences difficulties. Do
you think it's harder to meet the needs of that community because of sort of just the way that IU is,
the way this town kind of works, I guess, basically?
I think understanding and getting at the causes of poverty are difficult no matter what part of the
country you're in. I think there's certainly differences between urban poverty and rural poverty. Bloomington
in this area is kind of a mix. Certainly there's some urban characteristics right here in the city of
Bloomington, but also we serve a larger area and we see much of rural poverty, which tends to be more
hidden, if you will.
So it's difficult, you know, any way you slice it. One of the things that people aren't aware of, because
Bloomington on the surface is a very prosperous community. We obviously have a major university here
and so on. But Monroe County actually has the highest poverty rate in Indiana. It's close to 19%.
And again, that's just people living at or below the federal poverty line, which is
very, very conservative. When we add in those folks that are living just above it, for example, it's
a significant part of our population. So I think the ability to meet the needs is very complex. And
there are more people, I think, than one agency like the Shalom Center could have. Sure. You probably
still have a lot of success stories, though, right? Of getting people back on their feet, especially
with job counseling and everything.
So I think it's important for people to understand that people who are experiencing homelessness and
poverty are no different than you or not. They are people. They have their own histories and have their
own hopes and dreams for the future. They have their own demons that they're struggling with at the
moment. You know, the distinguishing or common characteristics, if you will, for many of the folks that
we see every day are
a lack of confidence and self-esteem that's been beaten down over time, a profound sense of isolation
for many folks, and a lack of a support system. I ask people often to think about what you have done,
what any of us have done, what has been a crisis in our life. And we all experience a crisis, whether
it's a job loss or a divorce or an illness, I think,
many of us, our support system's a phone call away. That might be family or friends, somebody that helps
us through that difficult time. But for, particularly for folks who are experiencing homelessness for
any number of reasons, that support system has been lost. We recognize that, and one of the intangibles
of the Shalom Center beyond the actual services that are provided there is trying to function as that
extended support system. Yeah, kind of like a family. Yeah, and over time, you know,
we see some tremendous change and success stories as you asked about. Folks that on first meeting may
be reluctant to share their name several months out are not only flowering but are finding employment
or getting into educational programs or good things are happening. And we understand that that's not
a formula driven process, it's really an individual
And one of the things I think that Distinguish has shown is it's very much a person-driven process.
And what I mean by that is most social service delivery, if you will, and this isn't a criticism of
traditional social service agencies, but the interactions are business-driven. And not coming to your
agency seeking help with a legal question or seeking help applying for benefits. Our interaction is
based solely on
the service may or may not be delivered, and then we go away. The Shalom Center is much different. We
make people aware of what services are available, but then we allow people to tell us what it is that
they think they need and when they need it. And that's a very different approach and particularly effective
in reaching people who are hard to reach, people that may feel alienated. And many people do, many people
have had very difficult
experiences trying to deal with systems and traditional community institutions. So our approach is more
people-oriented, more patient, more flexible. Right. It seems like just having been a student and being
away from home, there's times in your life where you're like, well, I don't really have a family right
now, even if your parents are very supportive of you. Or for any of us, it's like when you hit that
moment, and thankfully, I don't feel like I've ever hit it for too long.
But just for anyone, it seems like it would be hard to get through the day-to-day and to motivate yourself,
especially if you're down on your luck without that sense of family. So it seems like a really great
thing that you do there by creating that for people. Because I'm sure that giving them that hope is
actually what that hope and just people to talk to, people to relate to. One of the things we try to
keep front and center, and again, it's difficult to do sometimes because we're so busy with the day-to-day.
loan center day in and day out is filled with people who, for example, will pop into the office with
prescriptions that need to be filled and no way to fill them. And one emergency situation after another.
And we're very consumed, obviously, by getting those immediate needs met. But one of the things we try
to keep in front of us is the fact
fundamental issue is folks have lost their ability to dream over time. And we all need a sense
of self-esteem, self-confidence to move forward with whatever it is we choose in our lives. So we try
to be conscious of that all the time. Are you from Bloomington? No, I grew up in New England.
What led you to want to do this kind of work? Kind of a natural progression. I was college age. I was
very interested in teaching. I thought that would be my career path. I became less interested after
going through college and actually going into a classroom.
If there was a point to what you're doing, a hope or a dream? Just a second. I was fortunate. I was
in college during a very both chaotic and I think very creative time. It was the Vietnam era and civil
rights struggles and also a great deal of movement on a national level around issues like poverty. My
very first job coming out of school was with the, I'm dating myself here, with the old war on poverty,
which was something
in the early 70s very much targeting poverty in inner cities and got my start doing that working in
inner city
bedroom covered with sores. He couldn't get out of his apartment, so he used one empty room as a place
to put his trash, and they opened the door, and trash was piled to the ceiling. He hadn't had medicine
when he needed in months, and had no family or friends anywhere close by. Nobody knew about him. One
of the next people I met was a teenage mother with her baby,
So my first few years were spent doing that type of work fueled my passion, if you will, I think around
injustice.
But I think it's easy to forget, just in day-to-day life, living in the United States and being able
to go out to eat all the time, being able to go, oh, boo-hoo, I don't have any money. I'll have to not
go out to the bars tonight or whatever. I feel like it's easy to forget that there are situations like
that. And people maybe do even forget. And I'm wondering, do you think that's part of the reason
Why now, I know you were talking about in the 60s and 70s, there was so much work done by the government
on poverty. Now we have a president whose budget actually cuts back on Medicaid, Medicare, welfare,
everything that people who have the misfortune of experiencing poverty need to make it through. What
do you think that you can attribute that to in the past 30 or 40 years in our society that's sort of
made us turn cold hard shoulder in innocence?
It's a very good question. I think some of it relates to the fact that we're Americans and we have very
short attention spans and for example, when you look at the issue of homelessness and there's a typical
or a similar process I think that happens with most major social issues as they emerge as major issues.
When you look at homelessness,
For those of you who remember back to those times, early on, a tremendous amount of public attention
paid to the issues. I mean, Hollywood stars coming out and doing benefits. The federal government beginning
to put some money out for programs and services. And some things began to happen. Five or six years
later, though, in fact, the monies began to be cut.
Again, a lot of that is, I think, related to our nature as Americans. When we identify a problem, we
expect it to be solved quickly. And if it's too complex to be solved quickly, unfortunately, just the
opposite begins to occur. Rather than compassion, we begin to go the other way. In many cases, we begin
to blame the victim. And then, I think, somewhat related to that is we become numb to the issue
example of that is go to any big city, go to Indianapolis, go to Chicago, walk down any major city street,
and you'll see bodies everywhere. People lying on sidewalks, lying on park benches, and most of us don't
look twice. I mean, we're not shocked. We're not outraged. We don't go looking for help. It's become
part of the urban landscape. That's true.
that it never effectively continued to say that it never occurred to me before, like, maybe, like, I
should see this person laying on the ground over there and think, oh, what's going on? How can I help
this person? We no longer, and we've lost something when that happens. Again, we don't see it anymore.
We're not shocked. We're not moved to action. And again, much of that, I think, just relates to who
we are as Americans. Like a certain selfishness or just a certain
state of denial? Well, probably all of that. And again, we expect easy answers. And we're an immediate
gratification culture, I think. Social problems that we're talking about tonight don't lend themselves
to quick and easy solutions that are very complex. Do you think it could have something to do with just
sort of what the legitimating factor is in our society, as far as
And we have a very capitalistic, almost social Darwinistic take on success in our society. So I mean,
I guess what we've been hearing since we were like eight, seven, six, five, however old is, if you try
in the United States, everyone is given the same opportunities, which isn't really the case at all.
But even that being so.
Do you think that's why we can turn our backs? Because we've been sort of indoctrinated with that? You
must have really, really messed up. Because I know that we're in a free society, and everyone can succeed.
But the harsh reality is, if everyone succeeded, who would be the garbage man who would? Sorry, I started
ranting, but it- No, you're making great points. I mean, it's still a fundamental American value.
For young or old, it's ingrained in our culture that if you work hard, you can achieve the American
dream. And if you suffer a setback, you pull yourself up by the bootstraps, so to speak. And certainly,
I think conditions and societal factors were different years ago than they are now. When you look at
homelessness, for example, when you look at a place like Bloomington,
According to the last research that just came out in the fall, looking at affordability measures,
for example, for any of us to afford the medium-priced two-bedroom apartment here in Bloomington, and
to be able to afford it is the key, we would need to be making a minimum of $12 an hour. Now, when you
examine the employment structure here and look at so many of our jobs, which are service sector-related,
Still don't value as a society or service sector jobs So they're they're you know, they're priced at
minimum wage or just above and just do the costs cost comparison Cost of that housing and what the wages
are you can work full-time? That's really unfortunate
Because I heard that you said this statistic about how Long Island County had the highest poverty rate.
But I heard also before, I heard that in the context of a Green Party meeting some time ago, they said
that also had the lowest unemployment rate. Yeah, the lowest unemployment rate. So it seems like everyone
is working and there's just not enough money to go around. Yeah, and they're not contradictory, but
they do require explanation. We do have a very low unemployment rate. Again, much of it is service sector.
at very low wages, and much of it is part time and seasonal employment. Right, but that does, to a certain
extent, kind of just fly in the face of anyone who would be like, oh, these people are just amazing
people. They're not doing anything to me. And a lot of that is mythology. When you look at the research
all over the country, and for example, on homelessness, a significant percentage of people who are currently
homeless are also employed. I mean, their wages simply don't allow them
for the basic necessities. And that's really the root definition of poverty. And it's not a difficult
concept. It means having insufficient resources to pay for basic necessities. Food, rent or shelter,
and health care are the major ones. And for those living with a very modest income, one upset can throw
that household or family
for those that are working in service sector jobs. Oftentimes that means no health insurance and no
benefits. If you're sick and unable to work, you can lose your job. If your car breaks down and you
can't afford to fix it, that can mean loss of employment, that can quickly spiral into homelessness.
So it's a very, very fragile balance. Well, so many of us live, and I mean myself included so much,
it's hard to tap into what basic needs are.
because basic needs are so many different things or have become. Is cable a basic need? Is internet
a basic need? I mean, obviously not. Well, I mean, to be successful, sometimes cable is getting to the
point as a student or as looking for a job. It could be more difficult. But I think on that note, I'm
getting a signal that we're running out of time.
So we're going to have you back up here in just a moment, again, to see if the audience has any questions
or if we have a moment just to discuss a couple things. Thank you very much.
We'll be inviting two guests back on in just a moment. But before we do that, I was going to invite
Daniel Wick on stage. We were going to talk to the whole band tonight, but we're a little short on time.
Sorry, guys. They're all crying about it. I know they're so disappointed. But I was hoping that Dan
would come up and talk to us a little bit about the music. Because usually when I talk to people that
come to the show, they're like, what the? What's going on with the band? So please welcome Daniel Wick,
keyboardist.
Oh, genius. I was getting there. I was getting there. Musical genius. You don't want to talk? Oh, OK.
No, and there's four chairs, so if somebody else wants to come up, you can, too. Joe? OK. Have a seat,
gentlemen. All right, so this is just kind of a side project for both of you, right? This is kind of
a concession to his entire life.
Yeah, hold on. That's better. We'll need to for the roundtable anyhow. What exactly is going on back
there? I guess I can ask that question. That's simply a curious kind of music. We're just wondering
what I guess doing exactly.
And we'll think for a while. I guess we could ask, what else do you guys do besides playing the Shantako
Band on this Bloomingtown Variety Hour? No. Well, I know sometimes you draw pictures. No, I mean like
in real life. What other bands are you involved with? Scoob Trio, once part of Sam Crimes. Just trying
to get a sense of the music going on with the show.
Essentially, it's kind of like a, this particular project is kind of a manifestation of collaborations,
just a kind of non-idiomatic playing. It's not necessarily trying to be complete. It's both completely
original and completely unoriginal. And I can add in with that is the fact that we use mainly Casio equipment
and another type, and they have presets, so it's idiomatic in a way, it's in a genre in a way that sometimes
we use a preset to play a certain kind of music, but then we don't pay attention to that usually. How
would you guys define idiomatic? I don't want to sound stupid or anything, but I couldn't really come
up with a definition if... The best definition for playing non-idiomatically would be no intended effect,
I think would make sense.
Like flow? Well yeah, I mean you play with your music, you do that all the time when you're playing,
you know, rock or any genre. But with this particular project, I guess it's, you know, you don't worry
about what kind of genre of music you're playing. Right. It's funny, Dan's actually my roommate, so
and Scoon's good friends. I get to hear a lot of
these gentlemen's music a lot of the time. And I was in the art museum on campus the other day for a
tour. And we get up to probably the most abstract piece there, I guess, the most wild, crazy. It's this
huge. It's supposed to be a playground somehow. And the docent asks, he's like, OK, what do you guys
think of when you see this? And no one answers. And he's like, well, I ask six-year-olds what they hear
when they see this. And so he asks us that. And I'm just instantly like, I hear my basement.
It's just this crazy pain. I'm like, I definitely hear my basement, some jazz. I think that might be
a good way of looking at it. Maybe a six-year-old's take on jazz. Good, good, good. All right. Well,
you guys don't want to talk anymore. Anything else to say about the music?
Yeah, with this particular band, I didn't name this. What's the name of this band? It's the Shantakwa
Band. I actually kind of named it because Shantakwa was a tour that used to travel the country before
there was like mass media and really like, I mean, you had newspapers and stuff, but before you had
like the internet or like TV or even as much radio or any radio, I guess they would have circus tents
and there would be like shows and
politicians and writers and stuff, and they'd all talk. And it's like to inform people, but also just
to have fun. So I thought that related to what this show was supposed to do. So that's why it's their
name. But sorry, go on. We actually had a theme song for this. And we performed it the first night we
were invited to add music to this. And I like to think that we are just constantly doing different versions
of that same song.
I don't know, we've kind of gotten more out now. The first time we had semblances of songs and then
we had people who didn't know any of our material just started kind of improvising with us. And then
now it's gotten to the point where I'm just not even in the band. I'm just kind of watching tonight.
Yeah, we ran out of Casio, so I just don't know. I really like the song that they're talking about,
that they did his theme song the first time. It's funny that Dan was the one out because he actually
composed the song, so I guess they've
full circle. But it's great, and I really like that notion that it's just the same song kind of continued.
I think we're running short on time again. So if one of you guys wants to stay up here while we bring
our two guests up, that would be fantastic. Sorry, Schoon. You can pull up a chair if it's important
to you. But without further ado, please welcome Matt Brunner and Joel Ricas
Welcome, gentlemen. First of all, I would ask if there are any audience questions about what had come
up about the Shalom Center and their purpose in the community, or about... I'm gonna grab some more
microphones. I'll finish real fast, though, so that you guys have time to orchestrate your questions.
Or about the Hoosier Rights Campaign to Matt, or any issues about legislation, because I think that
Matt was telling me, as a political science major,
and as the president of the Hoosier Rights Campaign has a lot of knowledge on that. If you guys were
interested in writing to congress people or anything, hold on just one moment and come up to the front
if you had anything to ask. All right, Gabe, do you have a question?
I have two questions. One, you worked with Peggy Welch, and she has an anti-gay marriage stance. And
not only for your issue with Peggy Welch, but for everyone. I know that your own family has kind of
had difficulties with this issue. I mean, you think awareness is going to open these people's minds?
Do you think your connection with Peggy already will help open her mind? I mean, when do you think these
people will realize we're all just people?
That's an extremely good question. And there was a poll taken a while back, and that says that people
who know people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender are automatically almost more supportive.
They realize who they are. They realize that they are the same people that they've known for years and
years, and that nothing has really changed. It's just that they have decided to tell them a certain
aspect of their life
decided not to tell them before. And the same thing goes with gay marriage, anti-discrimination laws,
hate crimes, that kind of thing. I think the same holds true. I think that people just need to go out
there, tell their stories, tell their personal stories to their family, to their friends, to
their congresspeople, and get the word out there more. Because the more education we can do and the
more personal face that we put on the issue, people are going to start to understand what is at stake here.
what is important, and that kind of thing. I mean, it's all about putting a personal face on it. And
I think with my family, they're still going through a hard time accepting that I am gay. But I've told
them time and time again that I'm the same person. Nothing has changed. I'm still the same person. I've
decided to tell them a certain aspect of my life that I did not before.
So my mom is becoming more acceptable and more comfortable with it. But my dad, I think he's holding
onto the religious beliefs just like so many other people do, especially when the gay marriage issue
get brought up. They hold on and they stick to the religious beliefs. And that's fine. I mean, people
can have religious beliefs, but they need to sometimes learn where to disconnect them with the government and with
gay marriage and with other issues. I mean, they just need to realize when is appropriate time to disconnect.
Thank you. That's perfect. And my second question is for all of you, Rebecca, Dan, you guys have been
working with me for a long time. And my main interest, and first of all, Joel, I appreciate you for
being here. You've fed me for a year and a half. This show wouldn't even happen without you.
Matt, I had such a good time with you and all you guys. It was so great. I so enjoyed myself. So thank
you so much for that. OK, so I put this show together to try and bring different groups together. And
I think there's more power in bringing different interests together. Is it possible to bring different
interests together? Can gays be with the I-69, be with the poor, and create a greater, stronger movement?
Because this is what it's going to take to- Third party? Or just what's it going to take to-
Bush has power. These people are organized, have think tanks. They know how to run us. They know how
to run a country. How do we get together to empower the poor, to a gay marriage ban, like that woman
was saying about how this is Nazi Germany stuff. And these people are moving with power. So how do I
get these people together? Dan, I would appreciate your input, specifically, because I'm trying to be
very intelligent.
As far as putting these groups together, just from a musician or the radical musician standpoint, I
don't really think about it. I just kind of, I mean, I like the idea of everyone kind of just participating
in life as honestly as possible. But I mean, just for me, it's always been
I'm doing music, and I'm doing my own thing. And I just kind of phase everything out. I don't know.
I'm just so involved in what I do. Everything doesn't matter. So I don't know what I'm saying, except
I think everyone should just engage in the particular thing that they're passionate about.
I think there's definitely some merit to different groups working on different issues coming together.
Matt and I realized off stage, we realized we had some common interests in terms of work that groups
do in that, for example, each day we see significant numbers of homeless youth.
Many of those homeless youth are gay and lesbian youth. They're struggling with the same issues that
all youth that are out on the streets do, with also added in the cultural issues and the stigma and
stereotypes that go with that. So I think it's good to have groups like this in the gallery talk. And
I'm particularly encouraged by the work of Matt's group in that I firmly
those issues are talked about, the more people that become involved, and particularly get involved in
the political process, I think that's what really brings about change. Yeah, and I agree with both of
them. They have very good points, and it's all about getting the dialogue between the groups, finding
whatever things that they may have in common, and coming together on those things. I mean, because a
lot of the groups cover different issues, but there's always something there
It's just finding that one thing that they have in common and bringing their groups together. And going
to lobby your legislators, writing your legislators, getting the stories out, and educating the public
on what the group does. And that is the most important thing. I was going to say something I noticed
between what Matt was saying about how usually people who have a friend or family
or someone else who they're closely related to who mentioned that their homosexual or unlawful are likely
to accept it. And I'm sure, dialously, a lot more likely to become politically involved on behalf of
that family member to realize that it's not whatever they've been conditioned to think it is. But what
you said about it being a personal face on the issue. And I think I was really struck by what we talked
about earlier, because you just see someone laying on the side of the street. And you're numb to it,
but it's like,
there's a personal face that needs to be put on that person. It seems like it's kind of the same issue
at hand, like just being able to marginalize people, I guess. I feel like what Gabe's talking about,
it's so important for us to come together as a community and for members of all communities to do that.
Because I feel like once you isolate something to a community, it's harder and harder and harder to put
just a black face over it, or a mask over someone's face. You see that this person is suffering, that
this person is being told that they're going to hell for what is so personal to their soul, really.
I don't know that I had any. I guess that was kind of addressing Gabe's comment. I don't know if I was
asking a question or not. Perfect. Any other audience questions?
So I have a question to pose to Matt. One of the issues that I found with talking to people about civil
marriage and that is the word marriage. A lot of times they say, well, why don't you just ask for civil
union instead of a civil marriage? Could you just explain what the differences are between the two?
Yeah, sure. And that is a great question. I mean, a lot of people during 2005 and 2004 when the gay
marriage issue was really starting to pike interest,
during elections and during a lot of people's thoughts process. The main issue was, why can't gay, lesbian,
bisexual, transgender individuals just be happy with partner benefits or civil unions? The very clear
and concise answer to that is that they are not the same. They are not equal in any way. Civil unions
are given on the state level. So they give you the state level rights that go along with the marriage.
But they don't give you any of the 1,500 federally issued rights, protections, and benefits that opposite-sex
couples will receive. And that puts same-sex couples at a severe disadvantage on a variety of issues,
hospital visitation, social security, transference of property, even with immigration.
It's the same thing. If your loved one or spouse is overseas, opposite-sex couples have that right to
sponsor them and bring them back over. Same-sex couples cannot do that, because their relationship is
not recognized in the eye of the federal government. So simply, it's just not equal. If it was equal,
but it's not. Plus, if you have civil unions or something
are basically putting a second class of people over here. You can be called this, but everyone else
can be called this. And we've already been through this several times. And separate but equal is never
equal. And it just does not work. And that's why full marriage equality is what we need. Because civilities
just do not address the issues that are brought up. And they never will.
That's where we are at right now. Thank you, Matt. I had a question for you. We talked about the legislation
going through in Matt's interview. Is there anything currently up in the state legislature that maybe
it would be good if more people were aware of, just to raise awareness? Yeah, there's a lot of things,
although by the time this program airs, it will be irrelevant or resolved. I mean, I think
There's a lot of things we're following, for example, I know there's a couple of bills to raise the
minimum wage. The minimum wage has not been raised in I don't know how many years. Yeah, I think there's
one bill that increases it to $6.50 an hour this July, and then another dollar a year from July, and
then a slightly watered down version of that. There's some bills
which is a great benefit to people with low incomes. There's also some things of concern in keeping
with the Dana's administration push, I think, to privatize things. There is, although we haven't seen
the details yet, some, I think, coming moves to try to privatize some state functions around social
services and consolidate some things, for example,
offices or some of them for a more streamlined government. A centralized government? Yeah. Does it seem
strange? We've actually had this discussion before. Does it seem strange to anyone that, like, Mitch
Daniels is obviously the conservative Republican. I always thought just from textbooks, I guess, and
from just what my parents educated me about politics, that conservative and Republican usually meant
less centralized government,
and more local government, more community government. Even from a state politician's level, you would
think more county government, less state government. From the level of nationally, you would think less
federal government, more state government. Ultimately, giving more and more power back to local governments
would be, I thought, what conservative would mean. Why is it that now conservative means
W as a conservative is taking more powers, like the gay marriage ban, which to me, I consider myself
self-sensitive to the issues that gay people experience. And I don't think that we should prosecute,
persecute anyone. But I almost feel like the biggest issue at hand is just the centralizing power. Why
would a conservative Republican president want to pass a gay marriage ban that takes states' rights away?
Why would the state government want to take counties and churches rights away? Because we see the faces
of each other. We can say, OK, I'm happy with your partner. You guys should get married. Does that seem
strange at all? I guess maybe you're a little bit older. Maybe you've seen more of the political process.
I don't mean to in any way date you, but maybe you'd have some comment on that. I think it's really
just budget driven.
The language to promote is always around increased efficiency of government and so on. But in fact,
it's a way to cut expenditures. And oftentimes the way that translates on the local level is what we
describe as unfunded mandates. In the arena of social services, for example, it's imperative that there's
a social safety
shelter or medicine. In my view, government has a fundamental obligation to provide that safety net.
And the role of the non-profit sector, the role of communities of faith is to supplement that, not to
replace it. And so I think it really boils down to a budget-driven process. Yeah, and I think we need
to remain vigilant and watch every year. That's why I'm going to question Matt's group. I mean, watch
every bill that comes
be there to testify at this time and calling the legislators. Just as an aside on the political process,
I think this is a cliche, but many of us assume that our individual vote or our voice, our call to a
legislator doesn't make a difference. And again, this all sounds like a civics class or something, but
years ago, a big part of my work in this field
couple things struck me right away. As I traveled to the state house every day and worked the committees
and all of that, I looked around and the state house was filled primarily with lobbyists in three-piece
suits. And then there was a handful of us. There were, oh, maybe six or seven groups, groups like mine,
which represented homeless shelters around the state, groups like Matt's.
so on, but you could very visibly see the balance of power in terms of how those decisions are made.
But the other thing that was more positive that I learned is part of my job was to try to mobilize the
grassroots, if you will, when crucial votes were coming up. And Zarek, on a daily basis, sometimes the
power of phone
and say, well, it wasn't clear what I was going to do on this issue, or I had a plan to support this
other position. But last night, I got all these phone calls from my constituents, and they pay attention.
That's good. That's good. It is possible to remove the vote. So for those of us that have become cynical
over the years, certainly it's good reason for the cynicism. But people still do have a role in the
process. That's great to hear.
I believe we're probably getting to the end of our time, and we want to give the Shantakla Band a chance
to play us out, since we haven't heard nearly enough from them tonight. And if anyone has any other
comments they'd like to make or anything, you're welcome to go ahead. But otherwise, I think we're going
to call it a night. I'd like to thank you, Joel Rikus, very much for coming on the show. And I'll see
you at dinner. And I'll see you in a bit. And CJ Young on the piano.
Thank you so much for having me.
We will be keeping you posted on guests for the show as well as hopefully, we're hoping that people
easy to log in too. Other than that, everyone have a wonderful evening and have a great week.
There's one particular segment that I just love because it's a high school football. I think he's a
little boy. He's a high school football player who comes out to his team. There was an ABC segment on
Nightline or something where they interview the whole team. And it was just wonderfully positive. Wow,
we didn't know we had gay friends. We didn't know we had gay teammates. We're with this guy. He's great.
The coach talks about the fact that
I really learned some things and I need to watch my language. Every tantric system has its own mandala,
and thus each one symbolizes an existential and spiritual approach. That of vajrapani,
emphasizes the need for courage and strength in the quest for sacred knowledge.
Pull my finger. I'll give you a release. I'm not guilty. You're the one who's guilty. All makers,
politicians, Colombian drug lords. All you lobby against making drugs legal. You're the one who's guilty.
This is big business. This is the American way.
Actually, Gabe, the guy who's pulling me on the camera stuff, came up to our porch like two weeks ago
or three weeks ago. He just picked a porch? Yeah. Wow. Well, he wanted a lighter. And they were just
like, yeah, cool one. And yeah. That's a good story. I like the way that's going. Yeah.