WEBVTT 00:00:32.898 --> 00:00:39.651 - Again, the forum is sponsored by the Bloomington Proactive Committee. My name is Don Pratt. I was asked 00:00:39.651 --> 00:00:46.145 - to moderate tonight, and I said, sure, we'll do this. I've had some people tell me since then, hey, 00:00:46.145 --> 00:00:52.768 - you better watch it out there. There's going to be problems out there. I said, I'd like to think that 00:00:52.768 --> 00:00:59.391 - the folks in Bloomington can get together, and even if they disagree about a few things, have a civil 00:00:59.391 --> 00:01:01.534 - conversation about a matter that 00:01:01.730 --> 00:01:09.264 - again, that some of us don't agree on. And I was telling Joyce, I don't see anybody out here going to 00:01:09.264 --> 00:01:16.651 - cause trouble tonight. I don't see too many troublemakers out there. So I think we'll be all right. 00:01:16.651 --> 00:01:24.038 - Again, the purpose is to consider the question of which forms of protest are acceptable, effective, 00:01:24.038 --> 00:01:31.646 - and responsible. And the format tonight, each of our panelists is going to speak for 10 to 12 minutes. 00:01:31.906 --> 00:01:40.944 - And then we are going to open things up for your comments and questions. And the panelists were asked 00:01:40.944 --> 00:01:50.158 - to be here because they bring different backgrounds and perspectives to the topic. And as was indicated 00:01:50.158 --> 00:01:59.196 - at the microphones here, and if you keep your three minutes, we'll keep the comments to three minutes 00:01:59.196 --> 00:02:01.854 - to make sure we get everybody 00:02:02.018 --> 00:02:09.679 - through and have a chance to speak. And as was mentioned earlier too, once everybody speaks, if you 00:02:09.679 --> 00:02:17.340 - want to get back in line and talk some more, you're certainly welcome to do that as well. So again, 00:02:17.340 --> 00:02:25.077 - welcome to the forum. I will introduce the panelists now. Speaking first and in the middle position, 00:02:25.077 --> 00:02:26.686 - Professor Jim Hartz. 00:02:27.458 --> 00:02:34.607 - Religious Studies Department at Indiana University teaches the philosophy of religion. The second speaker 00:02:34.607 --> 00:02:41.351 - tonight will be Tim Pitchford, a retired FBI agent. That's to Professor Hart's right. Tim Pitchford 00:02:41.351 --> 00:02:47.759 - was the Indiana terrorism coordinator. And the third speaker tonight will be Craig Rosebraugh, 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:54.503 - the spokesperson for the North American Earth Liberation Front. So we'll start things off here with 00:02:54.503 --> 00:02:55.582 - Professor Hart. 00:03:11.778 --> 00:03:41.630 - My comments are first of all, first of all I want to thank people, Elisa in particular for inviting me and 00:03:41.858 --> 00:03:51.369 - and also for arranging this meeting. I think this is terribly important. I think it shows both the vitality 00:03:51.369 --> 00:04:00.351 - of Bloomington and the generosity of all of us to hear perspectives and work through things together. 00:04:00.351 --> 00:04:09.245 - I take it as an adumbration of a better future. My comments are, first of all, interpretive. I'd say 00:04:09.245 --> 00:04:11.006 - I don't really know 00:04:11.458 --> 00:04:20.977 - And I take it that Craig doesn't really know either what ELF's fundamental diagnosis of our common problems 00:04:20.977 --> 00:04:29.967 - are and what our goals are. In other words, I'm interpreting their diagnosis and I'm interpreting the 00:04:29.967 --> 00:04:38.780 - ends of ELF's activity. And further, I want to also, and this is going to be somewhat appreciative, 00:04:38.780 --> 00:04:39.838 - by the way, 00:04:40.450 --> 00:04:47.493 - I also want to express appreciation of their implied distinction and all of this is an implication or 00:04:47.493 --> 00:04:54.467 - rather an inference because I really don't know what ELF is up to except by way of inference. I want 00:04:54.467 --> 00:05:01.442 - to express appreciation of the implied distinction between the violence to property, the violence to 00:05:01.442 --> 00:05:08.692 - the ecosystem and its non-human inhabitants and violence to people. I'm going to be making distinctions, 00:05:08.692 --> 00:05:10.142 - I think distinctions 00:05:10.562 --> 00:05:18.944 - are essential. The world turns on distinctions. Finally, however, I want to raise some questions about 00:05:18.944 --> 00:05:27.082 - the means that ELF uses because I find it difficult, at least I don't want to easily separate means 00:05:27.082 --> 00:05:35.383 - from ends. I'm not going to talk in detail right now about violence. It's an extremely tangled topic. 00:05:35.383 --> 00:05:40.510 - I want to distinguish violence where I've given an opportunity 00:05:40.642 --> 00:05:48.260 - in terms of physical violence and mental violence. I'd also want to distinguish between personal violence 00:05:48.260 --> 00:05:55.807 - and impersonal violence or structural violence. I think all those forms of violence have to be reflected 00:05:55.807 --> 00:06:03.066 - on and introduced here. I also would further want to think about violence in terms of the Latin root 00:06:03.066 --> 00:06:09.534 - of to violate. I would also want to distinguish it from mere harm and so forth and so on. 00:06:10.978 --> 00:06:18.625 - So here's my guess at the diagnosis and the goals of ELF. The reaction to ELF's actions by most politicians 00:06:18.625 --> 00:06:26.130 - and the HT have been to label ELF as terrorists and to urge general condemnation of them and dissociation 00:06:26.130 --> 00:06:33.281 - from them. I don't think these reactions have appreciated the urgency of the problem to which ELF is 00:06:33.281 --> 00:06:34.910 - calling our attention. 00:06:35.874 --> 00:06:43.003 - That problem need not be rehearsed here in detail, I think especially among most of you, but let me 00:06:43.003 --> 00:06:50.417 - put it in a feeble symbolic way by the following consideration. Most of us believe that it is necessary 00:06:50.417 --> 00:06:57.546 - to buy bottled water, and we pay more for our bottled water than we do for gasoline. And this is an 00:06:57.546 --> 00:07:04.318 - incredible state of affairs for someone who has lived as long as I have. More likely than not, 00:07:04.418 --> 00:07:12.133 - Our children will be paying for very poor water, water that is poorer than what we now purchase. They 00:07:12.133 --> 00:07:20.076 - will be paying what we now pay for a good bottle of bourbon. The quality of water reflects the political 00:07:20.076 --> 00:07:27.867 - public choices on what the good life is. In our case, it reflects the preference of a liquid space for 00:07:27.867 --> 00:07:31.422 - high-tech recreation over a basic health need. 00:07:31.522 --> 00:07:38.059 - The quality of water reflects the quality of the air. The quality of water reflects the quality of the 00:07:38.059 --> 00:07:44.469 - watershed, the quality of life of the non-human forms of sentiency, and the ecosystems that surround 00:07:44.469 --> 00:07:50.943 - and inhabit this water space. I believe ELF's presumed main goal should be our goals. Stop most forms 00:07:50.943 --> 00:07:57.353 - of development. Why most forms? Because they're indiscriminate regarding basic issues of the quality 00:07:57.353 --> 00:07:58.686 - of life and ecology. 00:07:59.394 --> 00:08:06.354 - How do we determine, however, what is discriminated and appropriate? This is a most difficult question. 00:08:06.354 --> 00:08:13.181 - All of us live in dwellings that were once the result of development. All development is in someone's 00:08:13.181 --> 00:08:20.409 - backyard and is a destruction of some wild space. All of us use money and therefore make use of development 00:08:20.409 --> 00:08:27.302 - of products and put money back into circulation, which as profit is used for further development. Most 00:08:27.302 --> 00:08:29.310 - of us who support ELF's goals 00:08:30.018 --> 00:08:36.300 - as I have interpreted them, have no clear answer to these questions except we believe that there is 00:08:36.300 --> 00:08:42.582 - a moral imperative to live more simply and unhook our lives as much as possible from what I like to 00:08:42.582 --> 00:08:49.115 - call the mega machine. Finger pointing today usually involves that the finger makes a U-turn and points 00:08:49.115 --> 00:08:55.648 - back at the accuser. Purity of heart and hands is almost impossible with something like a village based 00:08:55.648 --> 00:08:57.470 - on blooming dollars economy. 00:08:58.434 --> 00:09:04.664 - This would also go a long way toward establishing a bottom-up democracy where a representation would 00:09:04.664 --> 00:09:10.956 - be at a minimum and participation at a maximum. But striving for a nonviolent participatory democracy 00:09:10.956 --> 00:09:17.187 - free of hierarchy in the MEG machine is an infinite task and may know completion only in our dreams. 00:09:17.187 --> 00:09:23.417 - In the meantime, the MEG machine goes relentlessly on with the general support of the politicians as 00:09:23.417 --> 00:09:27.550 - the laws, destroying much of life and the bases of life around us. 00:09:28.162 --> 00:09:34.724 - This relentless progress of ecological devastation is an undeclared state of war on the environment. 00:09:34.724 --> 00:09:41.286 - There seems to be a will to eliminate all wild spaces from our midst. Parks, residences, or pavement 00:09:41.286 --> 00:09:47.978 - must be put in place of all natural undomesticated spaces. How are those non-human and human creatures 00:09:47.978 --> 00:09:54.605 - who have no voice at the city councils, state legislatures, Congress, chambers of commerce, the stock 00:09:54.605 --> 00:09:55.774 - markets, the IMF, 00:09:55.970 --> 00:10:02.046 - the brokerage houses, the union management bargaining tables, and so forth and so on. How are these 00:10:02.046 --> 00:10:08.304 - to be spoken for when the bulldozers have already been mobilized, when the land has already been sold, 00:10:08.304 --> 00:10:14.379 - when the various forms of positive progressive development have written them out of existence? This 00:10:14.379 --> 00:10:20.637 - seems to me a basic question that ELF asks, and it answers it with the destruction of private property 00:10:20.637 --> 00:10:24.222 - of certain developers and certain developments. It assumes 00:10:24.802 --> 00:10:32.343 - that normal democratic procedures are not possible, that rather a kind of war has been declared and 00:10:32.343 --> 00:10:40.412 - an appropriate warlike answer is called for. Now I want to talk briefly about the destruction of property. 00:10:40.412 --> 00:10:48.104 - Private property is an enormous topic. I believe its bounds and nature are inseparable from what used 00:10:48.104 --> 00:10:52.478 - to be called the common good, which itself is inseparable 00:10:52.578 --> 00:10:59.736 - from the good of individual persons, the good of what I call self-actualization. I see nothing indicating 00:10:59.736 --> 00:11:07.097 - that Elf is against all forms of property. Thus, we may assume that would agree that property is a necessary 00:11:07.097 --> 00:11:13.985 - extension of the self, of the necessary extension of the self in the world for its own realization of 00:11:13.985 --> 00:11:20.941 - itself, for its own good. Let me say something briefly. I'm sorry I'm a philosopher. I have to do this 00:11:20.941 --> 00:11:21.886 - briefly here. 00:11:24.930 --> 00:11:33.974 - We are through our havings. And what I mean by that is an obvious sense that we need things in order 00:11:33.974 --> 00:11:42.481 - to be. Now, the most basic sense of saying I, the first person reference here, is tied up with 00:11:42.481 --> 00:11:52.063 - our possibilities, our experienced possibilities. And our body is an experienced possibility. I am through 00:11:52.063 --> 00:11:53.854 - by being able to be 00:11:54.594 --> 00:12:02.820 - possible to be able. I have an I, but I have an I can. And my I can is inseparable from me, from what 00:12:02.820 --> 00:12:10.885 - I refer to when I say I. And that can, that being able, is inseparable from some sense of having. I 00:12:10.885 --> 00:12:19.434 - have my powers. For example, a simple sense of having your powers is that you have to learn the language. 00:12:19.434 --> 00:12:23.870 - You have the power to learn the language, and only you 00:12:24.002 --> 00:12:30.946 - can learn the language. And when you become a speaker of a certain language, it's because you've had 00:12:30.946 --> 00:12:38.234 - the power. But you've had to actualize the power. I think there's an extension not only of these internal 00:12:38.234 --> 00:12:45.178 - powers, which we call our raw capacities, but also our way of being in the world. As being embodied, 00:12:45.178 --> 00:12:52.122 - we have bodies that need to be nurtured. And we have to have the possibility of nurturing our bodies 00:12:52.122 --> 00:12:53.566 - by using our bodies. 00:12:53.826 --> 00:13:01.180 - as capacities which enable us to be nurtured. But to eat is a way we actualize our bodies. So I have 00:13:01.180 --> 00:13:08.462 - to have my body, have to have ownership, but I also have to have a way of transforming the earth in 00:13:08.462 --> 00:13:09.918 - order for me to be. 00:13:10.242 --> 00:13:17.446 - I have to have some stewardship or disposition of the earth. I have to have something in order to be, 00:13:17.446 --> 00:13:24.651 - let's say, in order to eat, because in order to be, I have to eat. This is a long story. It's several 00:13:24.651 --> 00:13:31.784 - courses long. I'm not going to get into it. But I want to say property is essential to being in some 00:13:31.784 --> 00:13:38.494 - level. OK. This elemental sense of property is joined to the common good, to one's bodiliness, 00:13:39.106 --> 00:13:46.542 - to ones I can, is a far cry from most understandings of private property as a right to do with as one 00:13:46.542 --> 00:13:54.270 - wills so long as one has paid for it. Yet there is a certain sacredness to property rights in the present 00:13:54.270 --> 00:14:01.561 - context, which is a contingent, non-necessary context that needs to be upheld. As long as people do 00:14:01.561 --> 00:14:07.102 - not live in village-based subsistence communities, and as long as the state 00:14:07.266 --> 00:14:14.269 - is an entity which has its power from above to kill its members if it regards this as unnecessary for 00:14:14.269 --> 00:14:21.135 - reasons of state, then private property is a refuge from the always present menace of the state. It 00:14:21.135 --> 00:14:28.138 - seems thus to have a kind of sacred inviolability. Yet we can all think of instances when we would be 00:14:28.138 --> 00:14:35.210 - disposed to destroy private property in favor of a higher good. War by definition does this. But think 00:14:35.210 --> 00:14:36.926 - also of a baby in a crib 00:14:37.154 --> 00:14:44.169 - upon whom there is descending a heavy object. For example, an heirloom piece of pottery. Anyone standing 00:14:44.169 --> 00:14:51.050 - there might well attempt to divert the pot by a kick or a blow with a stick, even though this involves 00:14:51.050 --> 00:14:58.132 - the destruction of a pot which was priceless and irreplaceable. Private property, thus, is not absolutely 00:14:58.132 --> 00:15:02.942 - sacred in a way a Gandhian would say that a person is. Private property 00:15:03.074 --> 00:15:09.265 - is not an absolute right. It's only a contingent, a condition, a relative right. Furthermore, think 00:15:09.265 --> 00:15:15.456 - of the example that the Berrigan brothers gave at their trials when they were accused of destroying 00:15:15.456 --> 00:15:21.832 - government property, namely the heads of nuclear missiles. Aside from the questionable chasm which was 00:15:21.832 --> 00:15:28.394 - set up between the government and the people, the Berrigans argued, how can something which by its nature 00:15:28.394 --> 00:15:32.542 - is aimed at killing millions of people be called private property? 00:15:33.282 --> 00:15:39.978 - What is private or personal about something which by its nature, its end, its design, its function, 00:15:39.978 --> 00:15:46.674 - can only be considered as belonging to the generality of people? That which is designed to kill all 00:15:46.674 --> 00:15:53.637 - of us is not able to be considered private property in the sense is up to a part of the whole to decide 00:15:53.637 --> 00:15:59.262 - what to do with it. To do with it meaning the whole, the people, all of the people. 00:16:01.186 --> 00:16:08.415 - This would seem to be a part of the reasoning of Elf. A bulldozer in a wetlands cannot be thought of 00:16:08.415 --> 00:16:15.571 - as private property of a construction company. Countless lives, non-human at least, are at stake in 00:16:15.571 --> 00:16:22.943 - the destruction of a wetlands. And as awful as it sounds, a modern house with all its conveniences not 00:16:22.943 --> 00:16:31.102 - only requires a bulldozer, but its very existence functions like a bulldozer what it is in a wild space. Finally, 00:16:31.330 --> 00:16:38.792 - question of means. ELF has not harmed anyone directly, as far as I know. It has not directly inflicted 00:16:38.792 --> 00:16:46.400 - bodily harm. In that respect, its guerrilla-like campaign is one of nonviolence. ELF, perhaps, is making 00:16:46.400 --> 00:16:53.645 - a distinction between harm to people and harm to property. Of course, there is an extended violence 00:16:53.645 --> 00:16:59.006 - to people when their property is violated, and that must be acknowledged. 00:16:59.682 --> 00:17:06.876 - By using our example of legitimate defense through violence, if you want, through property, in the case 00:17:06.876 --> 00:17:13.863 - of the pot falling on the child, we may perhaps say that Elf does not wish to harm the owners of the 00:17:13.863 --> 00:17:20.781 - property because it wishes to defend the earth. Its destruction of the property is only an indirect 00:17:20.781 --> 00:17:27.837 - willing of harm to the individual owners of property. Thus one might say that the child's nightmares, 00:17:27.837 --> 00:17:29.566 - I'm referring now to the 00:17:29.666 --> 00:17:37.229 - family whose house was burned down, that the child's nightmares, the anxiety of the parents, et cetera, 00:17:37.229 --> 00:17:44.575 - were willed only indirectly as an offshoot of the directly willed violence to the property. But when 00:17:44.575 --> 00:17:52.211 - Alf refers to the people whose property is damaged as rich scum, it seems that they're asking that their 00:17:52.211 --> 00:17:58.974 - actions be taken as directly willing the harm of the people. This, I think, is unacceptable. 00:18:00.450 --> 00:18:07.794 - First of all, it's an odd metaphor for a deep ecologist to use scum as something, a way of heaping a 00:18:07.794 --> 00:18:15.065 - probrium on somebody. But more important, it shows a fundamental contempt of the other person. This 00:18:15.065 --> 00:18:22.554 - what it is joined with the anonymity of guerrilla tactics becomes hard to distinguish from the methods 00:18:22.554 --> 00:18:29.534 - of the mega machine which I, for one, want to oppose. The modern mega machine of the government 00:18:29.794 --> 00:18:36.481 - politics, business, entertainment, transportation, communications, capitalist economics, and so forth, 00:18:36.481 --> 00:18:43.492 - is founded on the elimination of the centrality of face-to-face relations. It is founded on the irrelevance 00:18:43.492 --> 00:18:50.503 - of first-person experiences as the center court of authority for deciding life's issues. Elf's demonization 00:18:50.503 --> 00:18:56.995 - of the other is rich scum, and its anonymity are precisely basic dynamisms of the mega machine that 00:18:56.995 --> 00:18:58.878 - most of us want to overcome. 00:19:00.290 --> 00:19:08.053 - A final word about militant nonviolence, which I do not want to be regarded as peripheral, but as central 00:19:08.053 --> 00:19:15.450 - to what I have to say. I think Gandhi would applaud the concern and goals of Elf. He saw the problem 00:19:15.450 --> 00:19:23.139 - of the mega machine very clearly. It was embodied for him in the British Raj, the government of Britain, 00:19:23.139 --> 00:19:26.142 - and the emergence of the Congress party, 00:19:26.786 --> 00:19:34.088 - as the Indian version of the same what we have in India today. Today he would be at the forefront of 00:19:34.088 --> 00:19:41.319 - militant echo activism. But I do not think he would approve of the way Elf hides out. No one merits 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:48.693 - contempt, neither the serial killer nor the serial developer. The means we use to reach our goal must 00:19:48.693 --> 00:19:54.622 - be of the same nature as the goal. We cannot hope for a democratic echo community 00:19:54.946 --> 00:20:01.757 - inspect that we ourselves will look different than our opponents at the end if along the way we turn 00:20:01.757 --> 00:20:08.500 - ourselves into our opponents in terms of a justification of ends by means and creating an anonymous 00:20:08.500 --> 00:20:15.378 - interaction which is a hair's breadth away from contempt. For example, chaining ourselves to trees or 00:20:15.378 --> 00:20:22.458 - sitting in front of bulldozers are ways in which we own up to our civil disobedience. Look our opponents 00:20:22.458 --> 00:20:24.414 - in the face and say to them, 00:20:24.514 --> 00:20:30.528 - That is to say that the developers, we do not agree with you. Of course, this is just our opinion. We 00:20:30.528 --> 00:20:36.483 - do not have privy to a divine revelation on these matters. We respect you and believe you are acting 00:20:36.483 --> 00:20:42.497 - according to your lights. And we want eventually to live in harmony with you. But we cannot live with 00:20:42.497 --> 00:20:45.150 - you if you persist in acting the way you do. 00:20:45.634 --> 00:20:53.470 - We're willing to pay for our actions, our civil disobedience, but your development is not going to go 00:20:53.470 --> 00:21:01.229 - on without our interference and without our resistance. But this is an extraordinary ideal and costs 00:21:01.229 --> 00:21:09.526 - much. An anonymity is doubtless an easier route and costs less. Elf's way is doubtless much more courageous 00:21:09.526 --> 00:21:15.518 - than what most of us are doing, myself certainly included, yet it still hints 00:21:15.618 --> 00:21:22.560 - of a lack of courage and resembles too much the opponent. And ultimately, I believe, it cannot win over 00:21:22.560 --> 00:21:29.435 - the backing of the great numbers which will be necessary to stop development and inaugurate a new kind 00:21:29.435 --> 00:21:36.377 - of style of living. In the end, Elf seems to believe that war solves things. I'm not convinced of that. 00:21:36.377 --> 00:21:40.382 - But they're right about this. Development is a form of war. 00:21:56.290 --> 00:22:04.253 - Our next speaker is retired FBI agent Tim Pitchford. Mr. Pitchford. While driving here from Indianapolis, 00:22:04.253 --> 00:22:11.990 - I started to see how gas prices were $1.49 just as I left $4.65, and they all went up to I think $1.69 00:22:11.990 --> 00:22:19.502 - as I got close here, and slowly my gas tank was getting very, very low. A little button was saying, 00:22:19.502 --> 00:22:23.934 - 24 more miles before your tank is dry. I was running late. 00:22:24.450 --> 00:22:30.999 - And thanks to the terrorism, the Department of Transportation, everywhere I went there was backups and 00:22:30.999 --> 00:22:37.421 - cones by forged throughs. So now my tank is about one more mile, and I think I'm going to make it to 00:22:37.421 --> 00:22:43.970 - the marathon just before we get out of here and try to get a little bit of that echo energy. You know, 00:22:43.970 --> 00:22:49.502 - I retired from the FBI two years ago, and with that, I never even heard of ELF, E-L-F. 00:22:49.954 --> 00:22:57.167 - So I did a little background over the last few weeks to find out what it was so I have at least some 00:22:57.167 --> 00:23:04.809 - idea what I'm going to do here today. But I thought I'd just kind of bring up a little bit on what Indiana 00:23:04.809 --> 00:23:12.450 - is in relation to terrorism and how the history of Indiana reflects to terrorism. You know, the definition 00:23:12.450 --> 00:23:19.806 - of terrorism runs, according to the FBI, unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property 00:23:20.546 --> 00:23:29.232 - to intimidate or coerce a government or citizen population in furtherance of political or social objectives. 00:23:29.232 --> 00:23:37.280 - Now, the FBI, in order to look into those kinds of things, we don't investigate terrorism per se. We 00:23:37.280 --> 00:23:45.328 - look into the elements of the crime. And the crimes that usually associate those kinds of things are 00:23:45.328 --> 00:23:49.950 - arsons, bombings, kidnappings, extortions, phone threats. 00:23:50.498 --> 00:23:58.092 - And I'm not a great philosopher, although I did go to a Benedictine college where we studied Machiavelli 00:23:58.092 --> 00:24:05.902 - and learned that the end does not justify the means. I'm somewhat of a follower of that Lieutenant Zipowicz 00:24:05.902 --> 00:24:13.134 - on NYPD Blue who said, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. And yet I see people out there 00:24:13.134 --> 00:24:18.558 - somewhat trying to fight the bulldozers and the animal eaters at Hardee's. 00:24:18.946 --> 00:24:27.392 - by doing tens of thousand dollars worth of damage to a hamburger stand. And I go, okay. But then you 00:24:27.392 --> 00:24:35.754 - look at Indiana history. Who comes from Indiana? Reverend Jim Jones, who set himself up as somewhat 00:24:35.754 --> 00:24:44.200 - of a religious leader, probably somewhat of a messiah, pretty much became somewhat of a terrorist in 00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:47.294 - his own right. Also, who do we have? 00:24:48.194 --> 00:24:55.881 - The man's son, son of God. Who was that? Charles Manson. He's from Bloomington, I understand. May have 00:24:55.881 --> 00:25:03.419 - done a couple years here. The Harrises. John and Emily Harris came from Bloomington. John was a high 00:25:03.419 --> 00:25:11.105 - school teacher up in Carmel. These are the founders of the Symbionese Liberation Army, kidnapped Patty 00:25:11.105 --> 00:25:18.046 - Hearst. I think they wanted to feed the hungry by kidnapping Patty Hearst and robbing banks. 00:25:18.914 --> 00:25:27.624 - Indiana is rich in history in the Ku Klux Klan, and we all know the demise of the Klan in terms of its 00:25:27.624 --> 00:25:36.249 - financial coffers and influence is pretty much disintegrated, but it's being picked up by groups like 00:25:36.249 --> 00:25:45.381 - the Skinheads. A lot of other right-wing groups come out of that group, the Aryan nations. These right-wing 00:25:45.381 --> 00:25:48.510 - groups all are anti-tax type people. 00:25:48.898 --> 00:25:55.951 - or anti-government for some reason, whatever the government is. Lincoln said that a government of the 00:25:55.951 --> 00:26:02.936 - people, by the people, and for the people may not be able to survive with the wars that we have, the 00:26:02.936 --> 00:26:10.058 - civil wars that we have in the Gettysburg Address. I think this is what he envisioned. Then you've got 00:26:10.058 --> 00:26:14.622 - your left-wing Marxist types of groups. The United Freedom Front, 00:26:15.266 --> 00:26:22.262 - People that were putting bombs in Washington, D.C. years ago. You're H. Rap Brown. One day I was in 00:26:22.262 --> 00:26:29.328 - Indianapolis and a fellow came to me and he says, do you know who's in town? I said, no. Amil Jamil. 00:26:29.328 --> 00:26:36.324 - I said, well, I don't know. I haven't missed Amil, but I've never heard of Amil Jamil. Well, that's 00:26:36.324 --> 00:26:43.531 - the Islamic name of H. Rap Brown. And I says, well, I know him by a different name. And he said, well, 00:26:43.531 --> 00:26:44.510 - what is that? 00:26:45.538 --> 00:26:51.823 - I said, we know H. Rat Brown, he was arrested for carrying a bomb in his car in Washington, D.C., 00:26:51.823 --> 00:26:58.685 - subsequently became a fugitive. And I was working in New York City in the early 70s when he was a fugitive 00:26:58.685 --> 00:27:05.483 - and in fact involved in a robbery of a social club where he made all the individuals in the club stripped 00:27:05.483 --> 00:27:11.897 - down. And one of the individuals had to strip down was a police officer in this particular club and 00:27:11.897 --> 00:27:14.462 - he particularly was not too crazy about 00:27:14.722 --> 00:27:22.860 - showing his gun. So he drew a gunfight and sued. H. Rapp Brown went to the roof, exchanged more gunfire, 00:27:22.860 --> 00:27:30.687 - and he lost a right testicle in which he now has been known among law enforcement as One Ball Brown. 00:27:30.687 --> 00:27:38.747 - He is now involved in a fight for his life because he assumed his religious leadership down in Atlanta. 00:27:38.747 --> 00:27:42.622 - He is involved in a shooting of a police officer. 00:27:43.202 --> 00:27:49.906 - He may get the death penalty. Here is a classic terrorist. Years ago, he had his own envision of the 00:27:49.906 --> 00:27:56.876 - way the world should be. Now he sits in a jail cell facing a death sentence for killing a police officer 00:27:56.876 --> 00:28:03.780 - who pulled him over for some minor traffic infraction. He also went through Indiana. That was my point. 00:28:03.780 --> 00:28:10.750 - Indianapolis and Indiana has a way of, I don't know if it's being a magnet, but at least it has an awful 00:28:10.750 --> 00:28:12.542 - lot of terrorist activity. 00:28:12.962 --> 00:28:21.691 - The El Rookins up in Chicago used to travel through Indiana on 65. We stopped a car one time that was 00:28:21.691 --> 00:28:30.334 - carrying law rockets. Who knows what they were going to do to save the world with their law rockets. 00:28:30.334 --> 00:28:38.293 - We put them in jail. The IRA over in Ireland, they were blowing up bandstands with, I guess, 00:28:38.293 --> 00:28:41.374 - English people, you know, and them. 00:28:41.858 --> 00:28:48.476 - People were getting killed. Horses were getting killed for the animal rights people. Who knows how many 00:28:48.476 --> 00:28:54.966 - trees they knocked down in the park with their bombs. But the devices came from Indiana. The devices. 00:28:54.966 --> 00:29:01.393 - The timing devices came from Indiana. So we were able to trace some of that and maybe put some leads 00:29:01.393 --> 00:29:07.819 - on to who the bomb makers were. And that's what the FBI tries to do. Find out who's doing the crime. 00:29:07.819 --> 00:29:10.110 - Let the chips fall where they made. 00:29:10.274 --> 00:29:16.513 - We're not involved in the ideology of any of these groups. Some of them may have noble causes. The noble 00:29:16.513 --> 00:29:22.633 - causes are something that may be something that's going to be a benefit to somebody somewhere down the 00:29:22.633 --> 00:29:29.110 - line. The media is here tonight, apparently, and that's one thing terrorists want. They want media exposure. 00:29:29.110 --> 00:29:35.171 - But another thing they want is anonymity. They want to hide. They're cowards. They don't come out and 00:29:35.171 --> 00:29:38.558 - let you know their beliefs and debate them face to face. 00:29:39.394 --> 00:29:45.904 - They want to go and they want to hit targets that are easy targets, like hamburger stands, or someone 00:29:45.904 --> 00:29:52.542 - who has a meat market in Indiana trying to make a living, raise kids, put them in college, and is going 00:29:52.542 --> 00:29:59.116 - out of business because some juveniles who belong to the ALF, Animal Liberation Front, are causing him 00:29:59.116 --> 00:30:04.286 - damage at 2 o'clock to 4 o'clock in the morning where he can't run his business. 00:30:05.442 --> 00:30:11.265 - And you start finding out who are these people. Well, there are people that read a magazine that's published 00:30:11.265 --> 00:30:16.715 - out of Toronto, Canada, that publishes these little incidents. And they think that they're making big 00:30:16.715 --> 00:30:22.378 - news. They think they're important. And we can only prosecute them on juvenile-type offenses. But they're 00:30:22.378 --> 00:30:28.201 - terrorists. The people that publish the magazine in Toronto are helping to create this terrorist atmosphere. 00:30:28.201 --> 00:30:33.543 - Terrorism is basically fear. If the community lives in fear, you become less governable. You become 00:30:33.543 --> 00:30:34.398 - less civilized. 00:30:34.786 --> 00:30:41.116 - And therefore, you're going to have people who are going to react to whatever noble cause in a very 00:30:41.116 --> 00:30:47.888 - in noble way. With that, I just kind of want to just briefly touch on the fact that there are consequences 00:30:47.888 --> 00:30:54.281 - to terrorism. There's the high cost of security. Whenever you go to an airport, you know that you're 00:30:54.281 --> 00:31:00.927 - delayed almost an hour now before you get on the plane. Your luggage is pretty much searched. You better 00:31:00.927 --> 00:31:03.902 - have a photo ID. These are all because of this 00:31:04.226 --> 00:31:11.392 - societal element of fear. Now, people say, well, why doesn't the FBI solve some of these crimes? Well, 00:31:11.392 --> 00:31:18.698 - we're not living in a police state, and thank God we're not. So consequently, we don't have surveillance 00:31:18.698 --> 00:31:26.003 - cameras everywhere, and we're not putting people in rooms and interrogating them for three days. They'll 00:31:26.003 --> 00:31:32.961 - do that in certain communist, Mayo, or Marxist-type countries, where they don't have a whole lot of 00:31:32.961 --> 00:31:33.726 - terrorism. 00:31:35.042 --> 00:31:41.450 - So consequently, we're not looking for a police state. We don't have a police state, and hopefully we 00:31:41.450 --> 00:31:47.732 - never will. But we're paying a high cost for security, thanks to the people that think they have to 00:31:47.732 --> 00:31:54.580 - go out and commit certain acts to damage property, create $12 million worth of damage out in Vail, Colorado, 00:31:54.580 --> 00:32:01.051 - deprive people of a living who would be working there. They've got a more noble cause. OK, well, let's 00:32:01.051 --> 00:32:04.318 - hear it. Put it out on the front street, debate it, 00:32:04.546 --> 00:32:13.094 - Tell your congressman, get laws passed, do the right thing. In conclusion, I'd just like to say the 00:32:13.094 --> 00:32:22.070 - only way we're ever going to get a handle on law enforcement, or on law enforcement, terrorism. Nobody's 00:32:22.070 --> 00:32:30.704 - ever had a handle on me, not even the FBI. They're shrigging in their shoes right now, probably. Why 00:32:30.704 --> 00:32:32.670 - did you go down there? 00:32:36.354 --> 00:32:43.015 - But the only way you're going to get a handle on terrorism is to have cooperation between law enforcement 00:32:43.015 --> 00:32:49.802 - agencies so that you know who the juvenile delinquents are, so you know who the money people are, supplying 00:32:49.802 --> 00:32:56.275 - the funds, supplying the wherewithal, supplying the meeting places, even though you might have a noble 00:32:56.275 --> 00:33:02.559 - cause. You may love animals. You might belong to, what, cheetah, concerned Hoosiers for the ethical 00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:06.078 - treatment of animals. If you have a meeting of cheetah, 00:33:06.466 --> 00:33:13.806 - or PETA. And in that group, you've got ELF people who are putting written material, citing targets, 00:33:13.806 --> 00:33:21.659 - and what kind of damage can be done to those targets. Members of CHITA can be arrested as co-conspirators. 00:33:21.659 --> 00:33:29.366 - They can be charged. And under federal guidelines, if they can show a connection in funding or providing 00:33:29.366 --> 00:33:35.678 - any kind of help, they will be charged with extortion, whatever the crime was, arson, 00:33:36.802 --> 00:33:43.826 - So I would just say if anyone feels that they are somehow encouraging violence by having meetings and 00:33:43.826 --> 00:33:50.781 - thereby using those meetings as a base, and they knowingly do this, they will be subject to the same 00:33:50.781 --> 00:33:57.805 - punishments as the guy who sets the torch. So we need cooperation between law enforcement officers to 00:33:57.805 --> 00:34:03.934 - identify those instances and that, but most of all we need cooperation among the people. 00:34:04.386 --> 00:34:10.468 - people who belong to those organizations that see among their midst a Timothy McVeigh type, someone 00:34:10.468 --> 00:34:16.733 - who's going to go to the horrendous next step. There's one who wants to be more important than anybody 00:34:16.733 --> 00:34:22.633 - else and show everybody that he is, you know, a great bomber, killer of mankind, whatever he is. 00:34:22.633 --> 00:34:28.350 - In any event, that's all I got to say. I'm ready for questions or ready for the next speaker. 00:34:38.690 --> 00:34:46.885 - The next speaker is North American Earth Liberation Front spokesperson Craig Rosebra. Good evening. 00:34:46.885 --> 00:34:55.245 - When one tugs at one single thing in nature, she finds it connected to the rest of the world. It's an 00:34:55.245 --> 00:35:03.358 - interesting notion and the relevance of the notion is applied directly to every single time we use 00:35:04.450 --> 00:35:11.848 - abuse, exploit and destroy our natural resources and our natural environment because what we are doing 00:35:11.848 --> 00:35:19.534 - is destroying something more. We're destroying our chances of sustainability as a planet. We're destroying 00:35:19.534 --> 00:35:26.860 - our ability as people to live on this planet for future generations. We're destroying the ability for 00:35:26.860 --> 00:35:32.606 - animal nations as well as our natural environment to function as a mere planet. 00:35:32.962 --> 00:35:40.468 - or destroying the possibility of life. There are individuals within a growing movement that are very 00:35:40.468 --> 00:35:47.974 - concerned about this realization and are doing things about it. That's why I'm here tonight and I'll 00:35:47.974 --> 00:35:55.479 - be talking about a group called the Earth Liberation Front, talking about what that group is as well 00:35:55.479 --> 00:36:00.830 - as what the ideology is and the message behind the organization itself. 00:36:03.138 --> 00:36:09.385 - The Earth Liberation Front is an international underground organization using direct action to stop 00:36:09.385 --> 00:36:15.632 - the systematic destruction and exploitation of our natural environment. Pure and simple. The ELF is 00:36:15.632 --> 00:36:22.004 - anonymous. We heard just a little while ago the ELF being called cowards. They don't want to come out 00:36:22.004 --> 00:36:28.251 - and take responsibility for their actions. Well, taking responsibility for their action ensues that 00:36:28.251 --> 00:36:30.750 - these people have some sort of at least 00:36:31.362 --> 00:36:38.086 - minor belief in our non, I would argue, non-democratic society. What these people want to do is to be 00:36:38.086 --> 00:36:45.205 - free to continue conducting their actions each and every day. And if they come out and claim responsibility 00:36:45.205 --> 00:36:51.995 - for their actions, they run, as we just heard, very serious chances of being incarcerated for a number 00:36:51.995 --> 00:36:58.257 - of years. What they want to do is continue their work, which they feel is necessary to further 00:36:58.257 --> 00:37:00.894 - the environmental movement so all of us 00:37:01.026 --> 00:37:08.160 - and the planet has a possibility of going on. The ELF is anonymous not only to myself but to the general 00:37:08.160 --> 00:37:15.022 - public. People have a hard time believing that. People think that I know all the members of the ELF. 00:37:15.022 --> 00:37:21.273 - They're anonymous. That's the way it works. The ELF operates in what are called cells. They 00:37:21.273 --> 00:37:28.204 - have a non-hierarchical structure. Each cell is independent of one another. Each cell is anonymous to 00:37:28.204 --> 00:37:30.174 - one another. The ELF follows 00:37:30.338 --> 00:37:37.161 - Rather than having a physical leader in each cell where you're having some triangle type structure that 00:37:37.161 --> 00:37:43.852 - you would have in a business, a corporation, or a government, classic government, DELF merely follows 00:37:43.852 --> 00:37:50.543 - an ideology. And so as long as individuals follow that certain ideology and the guidelines set within 00:37:50.543 --> 00:37:57.235 - that ideology, they are able to claim their action as that, a part of the earth aberration front. The 00:37:57.235 --> 00:37:59.006 - guidelines are as follows. 00:38:00.130 --> 00:38:06.783 - Number one is to inflict economic damage to those who profit from the destruction of the natural environment. 00:38:06.783 --> 00:38:12.892 - That's obvious. We've seen that here in your local community. We've seen that in my community and in 00:38:12.892 --> 00:38:19.122 - various communities around the country. Number two, to reveal and educate the public on the atrocities 00:38:19.122 --> 00:38:25.231 - committed against the environment and all the species that cohabitate in it. I am not going to argue 00:38:25.231 --> 00:38:27.166 - that the Earth aberration front 00:38:27.618 --> 00:38:34.175 - is concerned with direct public opinion about their tactics, because obviously, if you look at a widespread 00:38:34.175 --> 00:38:40.246 - cross-section of mainstream America, people are not going to identify and agree with fire or arson, 00:38:40.246 --> 00:38:46.378 - as you may put it. We're taught to believe something different, that that's not the way you go about 00:38:46.378 --> 00:38:52.449 - social change. Number three, as far as the guidelines go, to take all necessary precautions against 00:38:52.449 --> 00:38:54.878 - harming any animal, human or non-human. 00:38:56.962 --> 00:39:02.911 - These are the three guidelines. They're very broad, but also very specific in what they cover. And I 00:39:02.911 --> 00:39:09.097 - think the most important guideline that the Earth Liberation Front has is that which covers their strict 00:39:09.097 --> 00:39:15.046 - code of nonviolence as it adheres to protecting human and non-human life. And their history, both in 00:39:15.046 --> 00:39:21.172 - the United States and abroad in Europe, speaks for itself. Not one individual has been harmed directly, 00:39:21.172 --> 00:39:26.238 - physically, by their actions. There's a growing number of people in the United States 00:39:26.690 --> 00:39:33.392 - that are recognizing that the ideological structure in this society is causing the majority of injustice. 00:39:33.392 --> 00:39:40.157 - This structure places profit before the natural environment and all life including humans that cohabitates 00:39:40.157 --> 00:39:46.985 - in it. The profit motive is ultimately responsible for our air, our water, and our soil being more polluted 00:39:46.985 --> 00:39:53.054 - now than ever before. It is responsible for more forests being gone currently than ever before. 00:39:54.242 --> 00:40:00.458 - The profit motive is being responsible for more animals being exploited and killed than ever before. 00:40:00.458 --> 00:40:06.612 - And I believe it is a true cause of arguably more human exploitation, sickness, and death than ever 00:40:06.612 --> 00:40:12.766 - before. We have a sick drive for money in this capitalistic culture, and it is ruining not only our 00:40:12.766 --> 00:40:18.981 - lives, I feel, but the lives of what it takes to really live our air and our water and our soil, our 00:40:18.981 --> 00:40:20.766 - natural life on this planet. 00:40:22.274 --> 00:40:28.350 - There's also a growing realization among a lot of people in this country that state sanctioned campaigns 00:40:28.350 --> 00:40:34.137 - and protests are not accomplishing real social change. People are looking back at 20 to 30 years of 00:40:34.137 --> 00:40:40.271 - the environmental movement and asking, what are we really doing? If we are really having overall success, 00:40:40.271 --> 00:40:46.115 - why in the world would our air, our water, and our soil, the necessities for life, why would they be 00:40:46.115 --> 00:40:49.182 - more contaminated and polluted now than ever before? 00:40:50.306 --> 00:40:57.204 - A lot of work has been done, a lot of time has been spent, but are we being successful? A lot of people 00:40:57.204 --> 00:41:03.969 - are saying not as much as we should be. People are recognizing that there's a difference between what 00:41:03.969 --> 00:41:11.132 - the state wants you to do and what the state does not want you to do and the reasons behind the difference. 00:41:11.132 --> 00:41:17.566 - What the state wants you to do is to follow a certain set of state sanctioned protest guidelines 00:41:17.762 --> 00:41:23.629 - such as promote legislation, collect signatures on petitions, hold peaceful rallies, hold marches and 00:41:23.629 --> 00:41:29.496 - parades only if you get the proper permits, coordinate media stunts like civil disobedience, but only 00:41:29.496 --> 00:41:35.477 - with the police, stay on the sidewalk, et cetera. The state sanctioned means of social change is taught 00:41:35.477 --> 00:41:41.344 - to us throughout our lives as the only valid means of social change. We learn this from our schooling 00:41:41.344 --> 00:41:47.326 - systems. We learn this from popular culture, from mass media. This is the way we conduct social change. 00:41:48.258 --> 00:41:56.774 - Well, the problem with that is, what if sticking to those tactics does not produce the end results that 00:41:56.774 --> 00:42:05.208 - is needed to protect life on this planet? What does the state not want you to do? Realize who and what 00:42:05.208 --> 00:42:12.414 - is really causing injustice in society? Use any means necessary to stop that injustice? 00:42:13.826 --> 00:42:20.620 - cause ongoing severe economic damage to entities profiting off the exploitation and destruction of the 00:42:20.620 --> 00:42:27.480 - earth and all life on it. Why does the state not want you to do that? Purely because it threatens their 00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:34.340 - power and the power that this capitalistic society holds over the American people. And now that we have 00:42:34.340 --> 00:42:41.662 - branched out our culture, I would say most of the world at this point. People then come to the question, well, 00:42:42.498 --> 00:42:49.624 - Is direct action successful? Is the work of groups like the ELF, its sister organization, the Animal 00:42:49.624 --> 00:42:57.031 - Liberation Front, are those actions successful? I would say yes. Working hand in hand with above ground, 00:42:57.031 --> 00:43:04.510 - more traditionally legitimate tactics such as legislation, talking to people, holding panels, educational 00:43:04.510 --> 00:43:10.718 - panels like we are here tonight, gathering signatures on petitions, civil disobedience. 00:43:11.330 --> 00:43:19.288 - across the board. Hand in hand, direct action working in accordance with these other tactics is successful. 00:43:19.288 --> 00:43:26.657 - Why? Because the capitalistic drive towards profit has been shown to answer to only one factor, the 00:43:26.657 --> 00:43:34.320 - profit and loss margin. You cause these entities enough economic damage and they will stop their unjust 00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:38.078 - acts, their businesses. Proof of that can be found 00:43:38.754 --> 00:43:46.500 - in an incident that happened in 1997, early in my work as a spokesperson. It was an action that occurred 00:43:46.500 --> 00:43:54.320 - against a place called the Cable West Horse Rendering Plant. This was a horse slaughterhouse that shipped 00:43:54.320 --> 00:44:02.436 - horse meat overseas for human consumption. This corporation was burned to the ground by the Animal Liberation 00:44:02.436 --> 00:44:08.190 - Front, which has a similar set of guidelines to the ELF. And in that process, 00:44:08.450 --> 00:44:14.029 - Not only did they burn that company to the ground, but they put it completely out of business. It was 00:44:14.029 --> 00:44:19.553 - an instant success. The company was never able to rebuild. No, it didn't stop the entire industry of 00:44:19.553 --> 00:44:25.406 - raising horses for slaughter for human consumption overseas. But it did, number one, put that one business 00:44:25.406 --> 00:44:31.313 - out of business, so to speak. And number two, it did send a message to industries internationally, entities 00:44:31.313 --> 00:44:36.892 - internationally. It says, if you continue to exploit and destroy our environment, our animal nations, 00:44:36.892 --> 00:44:37.822 - even our humans, 00:44:38.114 --> 00:44:44.730 - There's going to be groups out there like the ELF and the ALF that will try and stop you. In England 00:44:44.730 --> 00:44:51.805 - in 1997, consort kennels, a breeder of beagles, was shut down after a direct action campaign by protesters. 00:44:51.805 --> 00:44:58.683 - This is all recent examples. In 1999, Hillgrove, a cat breeding farm, was also forced to close by direct 00:44:58.683 --> 00:45:05.758 - action tactics. From 1997 through the present, the Earth Liberation Fund has claimed credit for some 14 now 00:45:05.890 --> 00:45:12.291 - including the recent tree-spiking incident in the area here that was just claimed by the Earth Liberation 00:45:12.291 --> 00:45:18.390 - Front. They have claimed credit for some 14 actions around the country that have inflicted well over 00:45:18.390 --> 00:45:24.670 - $30 million in damages to entities destroying the Earth merely for profit. Profit and greed. I consider 00:45:24.670 --> 00:45:27.870 - direct action the people's movement in this country. 00:45:28.450 --> 00:45:34.151 - Realistically, I think we could put an end to most of the injustices in the world today if we wanted 00:45:34.151 --> 00:45:39.852 - to, if we realize the necessity for direct action, working in accordance with various other tactics, 00:45:39.852 --> 00:45:45.610 - more legitimate tactics as we've been taught. If we really put our minds to it, if we really used and 00:45:45.610 --> 00:45:51.311 - determined what is it going to take to cause that injustice or stop that injustice? What is it going 00:45:51.311 --> 00:45:57.182 - to take to convince these companies or these entities that there are some things more important to life 00:45:57.730 --> 00:46:06.219 - than just making the almighty dollar. I'll finish with a quote that kind of sums up, I think, a lot 00:46:06.219 --> 00:46:14.878 - about what the group is about and what the group believes. It goes something like this. The author is 00:46:14.878 --> 00:46:23.537 - unknown. If we are trespassing, so are the soldiers who broke down the gates of Hitler's death camps. 00:46:23.537 --> 00:46:25.150 - If we are thieves, 00:46:25.602 --> 00:46:32.174 - So were the members of the Underground Railroad who freed the slaves of the South. And if we are vandals, 00:46:32.174 --> 00:46:38.437 - so were those who destroyed forever the gas chambers of Buchenwald and Oswich. Take questions before 00:46:38.437 --> 00:46:44.885 - I end. If people have more interest in the history of the Earth Aberration Front, we did bring detailed 00:46:44.885 --> 00:46:51.272 - magazine called Resistance in the Back on the right there, which details the United States history and 00:46:51.272 --> 00:46:55.550 - the North American history of the Earth Aberration Front. Thank you. 00:47:14.178 --> 00:47:21.113 - questions and comments, we ask that you come to either of the microphones. And you can direct a question 00:47:21.113 --> 00:47:27.916 - or comment to one or all of the panelists. If the question or comment is directed at one panelist, the 00:47:27.916 --> 00:47:34.653 - other panelists have the option to respond as well. And again, we respectfully request that you limit 00:47:34.653 --> 00:47:40.862 - your questions and comments to three minutes. And we'll start at the microphone here, please. 00:47:43.106 --> 00:47:51.454 - I direct this to Jim Hart and to the ELF representative. I don't know the family whose house was burned, 00:47:51.454 --> 00:47:59.722 - but I got to own a house my first time a while back, and it was an incredible thing for me. I've worked 00:47:59.722 --> 00:48:07.673 - long and hard to make it my home, my piece of the earth, my corner of the earth. I've called myself 00:48:07.673 --> 00:48:11.966 - an environmentalist. I am compromised, as are we all. 00:48:12.386 --> 00:48:19.935 - I've made mistakes, and I've driven vehicles, and I profit from these things. But I believe a family's 00:48:19.935 --> 00:48:27.337 - home is its castle. That's a famous saying in a different form. And if someone attacks my home, they 00:48:27.337 --> 00:48:35.105 - attack me, and they're provoking violence. They're provoking violence in the heart and physical violence, 00:48:35.105 --> 00:48:40.382 - and they could get themselves killed. They could get themselves harmed. 00:48:40.482 --> 00:48:47.845 - But I think a person has a right, which is pretty well established in this country, to protect your 00:48:47.845 --> 00:48:55.208 - home. You have done great violence to this family. You have destroyed the wood and the work and the 00:48:55.208 --> 00:49:02.866 - time that people have put into this. I think you're too young to have done enough building to know what 00:49:02.866 --> 00:49:09.566 - it takes to build a home, to build a family, to buy a lot in a place of beauty and natural 00:49:09.794 --> 00:49:16.875 - you know, in nature and environment. I mean, someone wouldn't have built that home if they didn't love 00:49:16.875 --> 00:49:23.750 - nature and love Bloomington. You folks aren't from Bloomington. I doubt many of the people that are 00:49:23.750 --> 00:49:30.624 - causing this harm grew up in Bloomington or have built a home or have bought that property and have 00:49:30.624 --> 00:49:33.374 - made a home and a family and, you know, 00:49:33.538 --> 00:49:41.074 - You talk about destroying lives. Okay, there's been at least a million dollars worth of damage done 00:49:41.074 --> 00:49:48.760 - between forest working equipment, road equipment, which we badly need a road to Ellitsville, and this 00:49:48.760 --> 00:49:57.050 - home on Lake Monroe. I started out with, I'd like to hear the response to what I have to say about destroying 00:49:57.050 --> 00:50:02.174 - this home and these things, and I have a final formula to give you. 00:50:02.338 --> 00:50:09.956 - When you destroy a million dollars worth of things here, you've destroyed at least four lives because 00:50:09.956 --> 00:50:17.499 - it takes the man hours that it takes to do all that work that you have in few moments destroyed with 00:50:17.499 --> 00:50:24.968 - a match or some sand or whatever you use in the middle of the night. That's destroyed the time that 00:50:24.968 --> 00:50:28.926 - these workers have put and it adds up to four lives. 00:50:40.386 --> 00:50:48.800 - Can I agree that there is something sacred about the home and private property? My point was that there 00:50:48.800 --> 00:50:57.053 - are circumstances in which the absolute claim one makes on one's private property is conditioned. You 00:50:57.053 --> 00:51:05.144 - can well imagine, I'm sure you would be one of the first, if there was a disaster. Where are you? I 00:51:05.144 --> 00:51:08.542 - can't see you. You would offer your home. 00:51:08.642 --> 00:51:15.377 - as a place of hospitality for people who were in need of refuge. And you could understand that it could 00:51:15.377 --> 00:51:22.046 - be, perhaps by a local community, it could be proposed as a place of refuge. So I think that you would 00:51:22.046 --> 00:51:28.846 - condition the right of private property. Those claims, though, the way you're making them, I don't think 00:51:28.846 --> 00:51:35.451 - are nuanced enough. And I'm going to be quick on this, because I know there's a lot of people. I just 00:51:35.451 --> 00:51:38.494 - want to say, there are many points you raised. 00:51:38.754 --> 00:51:45.626 - One more point I'll make here. I don't think it's fair to say of a million dollar house that four lifetimes 00:51:45.626 --> 00:51:52.180 - are being wasted or negated or nullified. In many cases, a million dollar home is built by someone who 00:51:52.180 --> 00:51:58.797 - has a million dollars, and that doesn't necessarily represent four lifetimes of labor. How a particular 00:51:58.797 --> 00:52:05.288 - person in the American economic system gets a million dollars is a good question. And it's not always 00:52:05.288 --> 00:52:06.942 - by living four lifetimes. 00:52:14.530 --> 00:52:22.185 - I'm not talking about $1 million home. I'm talking about all these incidences have added up to $1 million. 00:52:22.185 --> 00:52:29.840 - It's taken so many man hours to produce those machines to render down that ore and so forth. Just briefly, 00:52:29.840 --> 00:52:37.137 - I am a property owner. I'm a business owner. I have lived quite, I think, an experienced life. I'm 28 00:52:37.137 --> 00:52:43.934 - years old. I am young. I'm not from the Bloomington area. That's obvious. I do think, however, 00:52:44.386 --> 00:52:51.662 - that your remark regarding the man hours cannot be applied to this because in the eyes of the Earth's 00:52:51.662 --> 00:52:59.080 - aberration front, again, no violence was caused directly. And they consider violence, this is what they 00:52:59.080 --> 00:53:06.855 - consider, regardless of what each other person considers in here. This is their definition. Their definition 00:53:06.855 --> 00:53:12.062 - is violence as it pertains to harming human and non-human life directly. 00:53:12.610 --> 00:53:19.600 - Obviously, I'm not saying that the Scott family did not suffer, did not suffer psychological hardship. 00:53:19.600 --> 00:53:26.589 - What I think the group intends to do is to at least allow or hopefully allow the Scott family at least 00:53:26.589 --> 00:53:33.443 - in some time period to reflect on what happened and hopefully realize that although they will never, 00:53:33.443 --> 00:53:40.229 - I imagine, understand, they can at least slowly take in what the motives behind the group's actions 00:53:40.229 --> 00:53:41.790 - were, pure and simple. 00:53:44.290 --> 00:53:53.464 - did conduct the damage, ought to turn themselves in, go before a grand jury. Let the grand jury decide 00:53:53.464 --> 00:54:02.460 - whether or not they've got a just cause or a just war and then let the judge decide. My name is Bill 00:54:02.460 --> 00:54:11.902 - Breeden. I don't think I have to prove to anybody that I'm a radical. At the same time, my first response 00:54:12.290 --> 00:54:21.315 - when I picked up the paper and saw this house burning in Monroe County. My first recollection was a 00:54:21.315 --> 00:54:30.341 - picture on CBS News of an American soldier torching a hut in Vietnam and saying, we have to destroy 00:54:30.341 --> 00:54:39.998 - this village in order to save it. Same thing. My feeling is doing violence to children's mind is violence. 00:54:40.962 --> 00:54:47.521 - when those children have to consider the fact that if they move into that house, are these people going 00:54:47.521 --> 00:54:53.891 - to come back and burn it again with us in it? They don't have the sophistication to figure this out. 00:54:53.891 --> 00:55:00.197 - They have the nightmares. That's violence. And I think the Earth Liberation Front has to answer for 00:55:00.197 --> 00:55:06.882 - that. Furthermore, I know a lot of people here in Bloomington. I've been around here now almost 20 years. 00:55:06.882 --> 00:55:09.342 - I've worked for change in Bloomington. 00:55:09.762 --> 00:55:16.258 - We've changed a lot in Bloomington. We just elected two city council members on radical environmental 00:55:16.258 --> 00:55:22.946 - issues of stopping I-69. It's never been done before. We just stopped a multi-million dollar golf course 00:55:22.946 --> 00:55:29.761 - from destroying our Griffey Woods over here. And on the night that we all were celebrating and all feeling 00:55:29.761 --> 00:55:36.257 - wonderful because of the unity that that community we found in this community, all of a sudden it was 00:55:36.257 --> 00:55:36.958 - destroyed. 00:55:37.890 --> 00:55:44.332 - And I would say to you, I know a lot of good people here live a lot of good lives, but who among us 00:55:44.332 --> 00:55:50.903 - is so pure and who lives such sacred lives as to declare themselves both jury and judge? The question 00:55:50.903 --> 00:55:57.345 - is not who is right and who is wrong. The question is, how are we going to live together? We've got 00:55:57.345 --> 00:56:04.367 - to build community in order to save the earth. That's what we've got to do. This action destroyed community. 00:56:04.367 --> 00:56:06.622 - It has been clear. Please, please. 00:56:06.914 --> 00:56:13.821 - Please, please. I don't want to take time for applause, please. Save it. Save it. Well, I think we have 00:56:13.821 --> 00:56:20.661 - three minutes. OK. What I want to say is, Jim Hart, I respect you greatly. We're friends for life. You 00:56:20.661 --> 00:56:25.310 - have identified it well. They are at war. It's time to declare peace. 00:56:25.698 --> 00:56:31.887 - It's the war destroys the tender grasses and the smoke of violence raised out of that house down there, 00:56:31.887 --> 00:56:37.956 - poisoning the air, poisoning the environment, and poisoning a wonderful spirit in this community. And 00:56:37.956 --> 00:56:44.264 - we took that violent smoke into our lungs and our minds turned it into mistrust and fear and it destroyed 00:56:44.264 --> 00:56:50.750 - something beautiful. The Earth Liberation Front, the experts are not just fit to respond to that. Thank you. 00:56:55.458 --> 00:57:03.622 - A common notion of the Earth Liberation Front is that they're always outsiders. They're always misfit 00:57:03.622 --> 00:57:11.625 - youth, uneducated, have nothing better to do with their lives, and go and cause trouble in society. 00:57:11.625 --> 00:57:19.789 - That's pretty easy, isn't it? That's pretty easy to assume because that gives us... Would you like to 00:57:19.789 --> 00:57:22.750 - get up and ask a question? It leaves 00:57:24.162 --> 00:57:31.305 - a lack of responsibility on all of us to really think about the issues that what if these people are 00:57:31.305 --> 00:57:37.811 - actually educated? What if they do have an intelligence that gives meaning to their issues, 00:57:37.811 --> 00:57:45.165 - to their actions? Don't we have a right to understand that? The only thing I see as destroying any work 00:57:45.165 --> 00:57:51.742 - done by the environmental movement, which I would even argue about as success to this point, 00:57:52.578 --> 00:58:01.142 - The only thing as I see destroying that are groups and individuals who come out publicly and condemn 00:58:01.142 --> 00:58:09.705 - the actions that they don't agree with, because that's not what they were taught. Pure and simple. I 00:58:09.705 --> 00:58:18.184 - don't have a question. I came to understand there were comments that were. Greetings fellow humans, 00:58:18.184 --> 00:58:21.406 - natives and non-natives. Non-natives. 00:58:21.986 --> 00:58:31.074 - Welcome to Indian-uh. We're here to discuss protests tonight and its relation to direct action and violence. 00:58:31.074 --> 00:58:39.412 - Vince Scott, your house has been burned. I'm an electrician. I'll help you build a new one. But not 00:58:39.412 --> 00:58:47.833 - on the Lake Monroe watershed. I don't want that lake polluted any worse than it is, and I don't like 00:58:47.833 --> 00:58:50.334 - what's happened to it so far. 00:58:51.362 --> 00:58:58.666 - But I will commit to wiring your house for you someplace else where it doesn't hurt the environment. 00:58:58.666 --> 00:59:06.042 - It's impossible to speak of violence here without understanding the history of this place, this land, 00:59:06.042 --> 00:59:13.490 - and the violent destruction and poisoning that the authorities here have supported. Welcome to Indian. 00:59:13.490 --> 00:59:19.998 - My grandfather's bones are here in Indian, in the earth. My grandmother's bones are here. 00:59:20.578 --> 00:59:27.625 - in India and in the earth. My mother's bones are here. My father's bones are here. These bones are still 00:59:27.625 --> 00:59:34.471 - walking. These bones are still walking on top of the earth. My bones still walk above the ground like 00:59:34.471 --> 00:59:41.451 - those of my fellow elders here. But we are the new Native Americans, and we're being buried alive. When 00:59:41.451 --> 00:59:48.431 - my grandfather walked here, Lake Monroe was Salt Creek valleys, the broadest, most fertile farming land 00:59:48.431 --> 00:59:49.438 - in the county. 00:59:49.858 --> 00:59:56.991 - where food for Bloomington was grown. When my father walked here, poor man could hunt this land to feed 00:59:56.991 --> 01:00:04.192 - his family, even during the great hunger of the 1930s. Since I've walked here, that area has been turned 01:00:04.192 --> 01:00:11.119 - into the largest lake in Indiana, 192 miles of shoreline. There are roads and towns still under that 01:00:11.119 --> 01:00:18.526 - water and dumps of PCBs, too. But all air thunder and all air lightning are gone forever down in Elandtown. 01:00:21.922 --> 01:00:27.950 - The lake wasn't the idea of the poor, the hunters, the farmers who lived there. It was the idea of the 01:00:27.950 --> 01:00:33.803 - rich and powerful speculators of Bloomington. And all of those poor, those farmers lost their land, 01:00:33.803 --> 01:00:39.773 - their homes, their livings, their communities were seized through imminent domain. And with chainsaws 01:00:39.773 --> 01:00:45.860 - and bulldozers, their forests and homes were leveled, were demolished so that motorboats could defecate 01:00:45.860 --> 01:00:50.718 - in our drinking water and the rich could develop the watershed. With the lake as a 01:00:51.298 --> 01:00:57.438 - Speculation boom. Property taxes became too high to profitably farm the area surrounding the 01:00:57.438 --> 01:01:04.503 - lake. Surrounding land has fallen into the hands of developers who no longer need actual weapon of eminent 01:01:04.503 --> 01:01:11.237 - domain and police force to take and destroy the land. Development is eminent domain for the rich. But 01:01:11.237 --> 01:01:18.038 - we're the new Native Americans and we're being buried alive. I know my time's up. Will anyone tolerate 01:01:18.038 --> 01:01:19.358 - what I have to say? 01:01:25.410 --> 01:01:30.798 - I'm not done. I'm not anywhere near done. And what I'm not down talking about is how the government 01:01:30.798 --> 01:01:36.187 - hadn't listened to us so far. Please remove this person like my wife was removed. I know you'll get 01:01:36.187 --> 01:01:41.683 - in the back of the line again and come up and make another statement when you're time to speak. We'll 01:01:41.683 --> 01:01:47.287 - let everybody talk. Thanks. Good evening, my name is John Blair. I'm from Evansville. I'm the president 01:01:47.287 --> 01:01:53.053 - of a group called Valley Watch Incorporated, whose purpose is to protect the public health and environment 01:01:53.053 --> 01:01:54.238 - of lower Ohio Valley. 01:01:54.946 --> 01:02:00.745 - In the 23 years that I've been involved in doing environmental work, I've seen Indiana go to this state. 01:02:00.745 --> 01:02:06.600 - We're number one in the release of particulate matter. We're number one in the release of sulfur dioxide. 01:02:06.600 --> 01:02:12.344 - We're number one in the release of nitrogen oxides. 100% of our streams and lakes have fish consumption 01:02:12.344 --> 01:02:17.922 - advisories warning women and children not to eat more than one meal a month of the fish from Indiana 01:02:17.922 --> 01:02:23.998 - waters. We put out two and a half times the amount of carcinogens in the air as does the state of California. 01:02:24.962 --> 01:02:33.206 - It's a pretty dismal situation we've created for ourselves. So I understand a lot of what's going on. 01:02:33.206 --> 01:02:41.369 - I have been a big advocate of civil disobedience over the years. And like you suggested, Mr. Hart, I 01:02:41.369 --> 01:02:49.613 - have been very outspoken. I've been in the front of it. I've been arrested. That's not the issue. The 01:02:49.613 --> 01:02:54.462 - issue is when we talk about violence, violence is trespass. 01:02:54.562 --> 01:03:00.673 - in my lungs, in my children's lungs, in their bloodstream and that has got to stop. Another thing I 01:03:00.673 --> 01:03:07.090 - would note is that every successful political movement that's ever been encountered in the United States 01:03:07.090 --> 01:03:13.201 - and probably throughout the world has incorporated some form of civil disobedience and much of that 01:03:13.201 --> 01:03:19.374 - has been repugnant to a group of people. Now it hasn't been supported widely but ultimately in order 01:03:19.374 --> 01:03:24.446 - to get the attention that's necessary sometimes you have to resort to tactics that 01:03:24.610 --> 01:03:32.646 - a lot of people don't like. Now I have personally preferred nonviolent, goes without question in the 01:03:32.646 --> 01:03:40.682 - way I've done things, symbolic and active instead of passive. I think that if we look at those three 01:03:40.682 --> 01:03:49.275 - things for our civil protest that I think that we might gain a lot more, a lot quicker, but the unfortunate 01:03:49.275 --> 01:03:51.582 - problem is that those things 01:03:51.778 --> 01:03:58.110 - only work well if there's numbers of people doing them. And unfortunately in Indiana, we've let ourselves 01:03:58.110 --> 01:04:04.204 - be shot down to the point that we are very isolated, marginalized whenever we try to make any kind of 01:04:04.204 --> 01:04:10.417 - action. Okay, I just want to make one more point. When it comes to freedom, there are three things that 01:04:10.417 --> 01:04:16.570 - strike me about freedom. One of them is that freedom is something you seize. It's not something that's 01:04:16.570 --> 01:04:17.406 - given to you. 01:04:18.338 --> 01:04:27.895 - It's also something that's like pregnancy. It's a little absolute. You're either free or you're not. 01:04:27.895 --> 01:04:37.452 - And then also and last is that freedom is like a muscle. If you don't use it, it atrophies. And most 01:04:37.452 --> 01:04:47.198 - of us are guilty of not using our muscle called freedom. Let's start doing it. My name is Terry Caulk. 01:04:47.298 --> 01:04:54.918 - I am an elder in the Elflor Family Incorporated ELF. My wife was thrown out of here for delivering a 01:04:54.918 --> 01:05:02.462 - paper to you, suing you from the Elflor Family Incorporated because the media cannot and you cannot 01:05:02.462 --> 01:05:04.574 - call yourself what you are. 01:05:05.058 --> 01:05:11.232 - You keep calling yourself ELF. We've been working here for 17 years. We run a 109-acre nature sanctuary. 01:05:11.232 --> 01:05:17.464 - My house runs on solar electrics. We work on closed ecological life support systems, constructed wetlands 01:05:17.464 --> 01:05:23.520 - waste treatment. We've been educating people in this area for years on how to do things correctly, how 01:05:23.520 --> 01:05:29.458 - to solve the problems. We are working with sustainable solutions. I challenge all of you to come and 01:05:29.458 --> 01:05:34.750 - talk to me about solar electrics, wind generation, anything you need, what you have done. 01:05:34.882 --> 01:05:41.046 - and your group has done is a measurable damage to our educational efforts in this area, teaching people 01:05:41.046 --> 01:05:47.091 - how to fix things. Instead, you brought violence to it all. I find that you feel that the laws do not 01:05:47.091 --> 01:05:53.196 - apply to you. Then if the laws do not apply to you, but you're a property owner, there's no reason why 01:05:53.196 --> 01:05:59.123 - you shouldn't come and take your glasses right now. Well, excuse me, not your glasses, just glasses 01:05:59.123 --> 01:06:00.190 - or anything else. 01:06:00.354 --> 01:06:07.496 - There's many of us who are warriors. We do not want to go to war. We've chosen peaceful paths. We could 01:06:07.496 --> 01:06:14.500 - have gone to war years ago. We chose not to. We chose to fix the problem. My wife was the person that 01:06:14.500 --> 01:06:21.367 - headed up against the program to stop the subdivision in which the house was burnt. We won. It went 01:06:21.367 --> 01:06:28.577 - from 400 and some units down to 100 units. We got them to do it under proper laws, proper way of dealing 01:06:28.577 --> 01:06:29.470 - with nature. 01:06:29.698 --> 01:06:38.786 - So I'd just like to say from the Elflor family and the 500 members thereof, you are cast out of the 01:06:38.786 --> 01:06:47.964 - circle of elves. You are not elves. You are orcs. Please call yourself what you are. Thank you. Good 01:06:47.964 --> 01:06:58.142 - luck to you. If the panelists, if you folks want to comment, please jump in at any time. Next question, please. 01:06:58.626 --> 01:07:05.622 - I'm from Evansville and I'm a board member of an environmental group down there called Save Our Land 01:07:05.622 --> 01:07:12.827 - and Environment. And from what I can gather, it sounds like that most of the actions that ELF has taken 01:07:12.827 --> 01:07:19.754 - have been against what could be construed the low-hanging fruit. I think that the perpetrators that 01:07:19.754 --> 01:07:26.750 - do the most violence to our lungs and to our public health in terms of air quality and water quality 01:07:26.850 --> 01:07:35.004 - or for the most part multinational corporations that have huge fences, security systems, and in some 01:07:35.004 --> 01:07:43.078 - instances media operations in this day and time that insulate them from virtually any complaints or 01:07:43.078 --> 01:07:49.214 - redress of grievances that the public may have in this country. And we have 01:07:49.282 --> 01:07:56.274 - people in our government who do little more than kowtow to these people. I just attended some Title 01:07:56.274 --> 01:08:03.615 - V air quality training on the Title V permits in Indianapolis last week, and the EPA told us first thing 01:08:03.615 --> 01:08:10.677 - off of the bat on Thursday that they only review annually about 10 percent of the air quality permit 01:08:10.677 --> 01:08:14.942 - applications that they get for toxic chemicals, for NOx, for 01:08:15.042 --> 01:08:23.277 - carcinogens, for all of these other kinds of things that cause our kids to get sick, that give us record 01:08:23.277 --> 01:08:31.198 - numbers of children enrolled in asthma camps every summer, and off-the-chart breast cancer incidents 01:08:31.198 --> 01:08:39.041 - and other public health crises, really, that I contend are being inflicted upon the American public 01:08:39.041 --> 01:08:40.766 - by corporate America. 01:08:41.602 --> 01:08:50.033 - Until this is raised as an issue that everybody in this country begins to recognize and begins to realize 01:08:50.033 --> 01:08:57.986 - that we are all less a people as a result of the freedom and the years of freedom that we are being 01:08:57.986 --> 01:09:06.814 - deprived because of corporate pollution, I don't see things getting much better. And I don't see ELF taking on 01:09:07.266 --> 01:09:13.877 - the con agras of this world, or the general electrics of this world, or the utility companies of this 01:09:13.877 --> 01:09:20.813 - world, I see them attacking the low-hanging fruit. And I think that in that respect, many of their attacks 01:09:20.813 --> 01:09:27.360 - are somewhat misguided. And I think it becomes incumbent upon all of us to start talking about these 01:09:27.360 --> 01:09:29.758 - things among the people that do have 01:09:30.562 --> 01:09:38.567 - potential to have some impact, starting with the governor, our elected officials, and the heads of some 01:09:38.567 --> 01:09:46.572 - of these corporations that I've mentioned. As far as your comment with multinational corporations being 01:09:46.572 --> 01:09:54.577 - at, I think, the forefront of a lot of these issues and problems we're discussing here tonight, I would 01:09:54.577 --> 01:09:57.502 - say that the Earth's aberration front 01:09:58.306 --> 01:10:05.668 - as far as I have seen, chooses their target at random for a specific reason. They want to present an 01:10:05.668 --> 01:10:13.176 - atmosphere that leads no individual or entity free in the sense that if anybody, no matter how big you 01:10:13.176 --> 01:10:20.538 - are, whether you're General Electric all the way down to someone building a $750,000 to $1.5 million 01:10:20.538 --> 01:10:27.390 - home on a watershed, nothing should leave you free to continue your destruction of the Earth. 01:10:28.386 --> 01:10:40.239 - So that's why they do that. I think the corporations are big because we all are hooked. I'd like to 01:10:40.239 --> 01:10:52.210 - challenge some of the factual basis of things that you said. I didn't put them all down, but I think 01:10:52.210 --> 01:10:57.662 - I got two or three clear examples. I've spent 01:10:57.954 --> 01:11:04.892 - I spent most of my career dealing with environmental issues, so I have some standing in the matter. 01:11:04.892 --> 01:11:11.899 - One, there is more woodland in the U.S. now than there was 100 years ago. Two, lifespans are getting 01:11:11.899 --> 01:11:15.646 - longer. Three, the environment is cleaner than it was 01:11:15.810 --> 01:11:21.741 - in the late 1960s, at least in the developed countries, and those, in fact, who have followed 01:11:21.741 --> 01:11:28.303 - the profit-mongering capitalist system. It's not true in those who have sought other means or who never 01:11:28.303 --> 01:11:34.675 - had this available to them. So not only do I think many of your facts are wrong, but the premises on 01:11:34.675 --> 01:11:41.426 - which you base those statements are also wrong. No existing society can tolerate someone who moves outside 01:11:41.426 --> 01:11:45.086 - of the law to change the law. Such is violent revolution, 01:11:45.186 --> 01:11:52.036 - And although revolution may at times be justified, we have to recognize it for what it is and either 01:11:52.036 --> 01:11:58.817 - join it or adamantly oppose it. Then the question. Many people are concerned about what they regard 01:11:58.817 --> 01:12:04.446 - as the destruction of human life. They call themselves the right to life movement. 01:12:05.186 --> 01:12:11.004 - Since you are a person of principle and without hypocrisy, I assume you would applaud the tactic of 01:12:11.004 --> 01:12:17.171 - fringe elements of these groups burning down abortion clinics so long as they are sure that the buildings 01:12:17.171 --> 01:12:22.465 - are vacant. Am I right? Are you asking that to me or the other panelists? I'm here tonight 01:12:22.465 --> 01:12:28.341 - as a representative of the North American Earth liberation front, a common thing that media likes to 01:12:28.341 --> 01:12:33.054 - do, a common thing that people like to do to try and poke holes in my arguments. 01:12:33.282 --> 01:12:45.201 - is to change the subject onto a different issue to try and lessen my credibility. I'm not going to discuss 01:12:45.201 --> 01:12:56.898 - another issue. I'm here today to talk about the environmental movement. I think vigilantism is an issue. 01:12:56.898 --> 01:13:00.574 - I think vigilantism is an issue. 01:13:00.930 --> 01:13:08.882 - think there are times when laws must be broken. And in good conscience, one can break laws, or sometimes 01:13:08.882 --> 01:13:16.682 - one must break laws. And the great societies we admire are all founded on those acts of breaking laws. 01:13:16.682 --> 01:13:24.482 - So although I agree basically with your claim about obedience to laws, laws are a dictate, quoting St. 01:13:24.482 --> 01:13:30.238 - Thomas Aquinas, a dictate of practical reason by the appropriate authority, 01:13:30.338 --> 01:13:38.103 - for the legislation, for the perpetuation of the common good. Sometimes laws don't meet those canons, 01:13:38.103 --> 01:13:45.791 - and sometimes only the courageous stand up to break the laws. And I think that in many cases we tend 01:13:45.791 --> 01:13:53.480 - to be complacent in regard to the face of laws. However, I think what has to be debated, and what we 01:13:53.480 --> 01:13:57.438 - are debating tonight, is whether the tactics of ELF 01:13:57.602 --> 01:14:05.325 - are appropriate forms of civil disobedience. I don't think St. Thomas Aquinas ever committed an arson. 01:14:05.325 --> 01:14:12.823 - I think if you go 57 miles an hour in a 55 zone, I think we're all guilty of breaking certain laws. 01:14:12.823 --> 01:14:20.620 - I think an individual who is given some sense of support that he can break a law, all of a sudden finds 01:14:20.620 --> 01:14:24.894 - out that he has an addiction. Most criminals I have ever 01:14:25.122 --> 01:14:31.637 - had occasion to interview in depth, never committed just one offense. They committed multiple offenses. 01:14:31.637 --> 01:14:38.089 - It's like a bank robber. Gets away with the first one, gets away with the second one. Ultimately, he's 01:14:38.089 --> 01:14:44.416 - going to get caught. Individuals who start small work the way big. You live by the sword, you die by 01:14:44.416 --> 01:14:48.926 - the sword. H. Rapp Brown is a perfect example. That's all I got to say. 01:14:53.634 --> 01:15:01.687 - My name is Daniel Logan, and I live here in Bloomington. And I just have a few brief readings I would 01:15:01.687 --> 01:15:09.661 - like to share with my fellow citizens here in Bloomington. And this is what I hope is an opportunity 01:15:09.661 --> 01:15:17.952 - to educate our minds as well as inform our hearts. First reading is just the five, Gandhi's five general 01:15:17.952 --> 01:15:20.478 - rules for nonviolent opposition 01:15:22.402 --> 01:15:30.648 - Nonviolent opposition implies non-violence and guilt. It includes total refusal to cooperate or participate 01:15:30.648 --> 01:15:38.360 - in activities of the unjust group, even being accused when it comes from them. Nonviolent opposition 01:15:38.360 --> 01:15:46.225 - is no veil for those without living faith in the God of love and the love of all humankind. The person 01:15:46.225 --> 01:15:51.646 - practicing nonviolent opposition must be ready to sacrifice everything 01:15:51.874 --> 01:16:02.094 - accept their honor. A nonviolent opposition must pervade everything and not be applied merely by isolated 01:16:02.094 --> 01:16:11.735 - acts. Second reading is from a Buddhist nun from the Tibetan tradition by the name of Tenzin Palmo. 01:16:11.735 --> 01:16:20.702 - And she writes, if we act out of the root of anger, we will experience more anger in return. 01:16:22.114 --> 01:16:29.765 - The Buddha himself said, hatred doesn't cease by hatred. Hatred can only cease by love or by no hatred. 01:16:29.765 --> 01:16:37.195 - All anger, no matter how justified, how righteous, how holy it is, comes from the same source, which 01:16:37.195 --> 01:16:44.699 - is antipathy, aversion, or hatred. Whether it expresses itself in violence or nonviolence, it's still 01:16:44.699 --> 01:16:51.614 - anger. And so, however it justified, it will never bring about circumstances leading to peace 01:16:51.970 --> 01:17:03.027 - love, and reconciliation. How can it? Thank you. Good evening, Mr. Pitchford. Welcome to Bloomington. 01:17:03.027 --> 01:17:13.976 - Glad to have you here. It's very interesting to hear from you. In your list of Indiana terrorists, I 01:17:13.976 --> 01:17:21.022 - think you omitted a few people. And it's significant the pattern 01:17:21.154 --> 01:17:31.679 - I think that in the number of names that you mentioned, the pattern was established. I'd like to mention 01:17:31.679 --> 01:17:41.803 - a few homegrown terrorists here. One of the worst was Admiral Poindexter. So I don't think they were 01:17:41.803 --> 01:17:49.822 - from here, but, you know, Oliver North and General Singlaub go along with this. 01:17:50.530 --> 01:17:58.508 - They were considerably more serious a threat to this country than any of the people you mentioned. So 01:17:58.508 --> 01:18:06.720 - I don't know if you take an oath in the FBI to defend the Constitution against all enemies, both foreign 01:18:06.720 --> 01:18:15.088 - and domestic. I did when I was okay. We got to watch out for some of those domestic enemies. We're talking 01:18:15.088 --> 01:18:19.390 - criminal activity where we go right before grand jury. 01:18:20.002 --> 01:18:26.680 - Well, Bill Breeden was here tonight and he took the street sign that there was questionable legality 01:18:26.680 --> 01:18:33.358 - of its placing in Odin, Indiana, which is both his hometown and Admiral Poindexter's hometown. So he 01:18:33.358 --> 01:18:39.971 - took a street sign valued at $30 down because he was afraid that it might send the wrong message to 01:18:39.971 --> 01:18:41.822 - the youth of the community. 01:18:42.562 --> 01:18:49.746 - And they had a manhunt for him over this $30 sign. I guess they had 150 state troopers and helicopters 01:18:49.746 --> 01:18:56.790 - in the air out looking for him. Now, what I'd like to say to you, if you have any connections within 01:18:56.790 --> 01:19:04.114 - the agency or within the government, is would you please try to get that type of law enforcement against 01:19:04.114 --> 01:19:06.206 - corporate polluter criminals? 01:19:16.290 --> 01:19:24.098 - I don't know why you would think we don't go after corporate, you know, people. When they break the 01:19:24.098 --> 01:19:31.907 - law, and there's a complaint made, it's investigated, and it goes before a grand jury, and they are 01:19:31.907 --> 01:19:39.090 - convicted. What generally happens when you complain about an environmental crime, and I've, 01:19:39.090 --> 01:19:44.478 - this guy is right. Right. Well, why don't you put that in the paper? 01:19:45.122 --> 01:19:52.536 - We've been doing it. We've been doing it for years. If citizens file a complaint, it generally goes 01:19:52.536 --> 01:20:00.246 - to a civil matter, and the guys in the suits sit down with the guys in the suits, and sometimes they're 01:20:00.246 --> 01:20:08.179 - even settled on the golf course. So let's start talking about a little equal justice of the United States. 01:20:08.179 --> 01:20:14.110 - I don't like Mr. Rosenbrough. I don't like Elf. I don't like this. OK, one bit. 01:20:14.786 --> 01:20:24.460 - And, you know, but it's like the law enforcement agencies in our government is letting us down and, 01:20:24.460 --> 01:20:34.135 - you know, take that oath seriously, protect us from both enemies, foreign and domestic, and protect 01:20:34.135 --> 01:20:43.422 - us from the organized enemies as well as the anarchistic ones. I'd just like to make a comment. 01:20:44.098 --> 01:20:50.531 - You know, a lot of people think that there's FBI agents everywhere to enforce every violation of every 01:20:50.531 --> 01:20:56.839 - law. There's 8,000, well, maybe 10,000 now agents in the FBI. That's not very many agents to cover a 01:20:56.839 --> 01:21:03.272 - whole country like this. We need support from the people. You're not getting, the FBI doesn't get that 01:21:03.272 --> 01:21:10.017 - much support. That's why you have these arsons and the like, because people are too afraid to come forward. 01:21:10.017 --> 01:21:14.014 - They don't want to testify. They don't want to be on jury duty. 01:21:14.530 --> 01:21:21.291 - There's a lot of things that are just falling apart with people not being responsive to the problems 01:21:21.291 --> 01:21:28.253 - in the community. The fact that you're showing up tonight is great, but you've got to take it the extra 01:21:28.253 --> 01:21:35.349 - step. If you've got problems by any particular group, environmental, industrial group or whatever, you've 01:21:35.349 --> 01:21:41.374 - got to find out what criminal violations there are involved and report them. Report them. 01:21:53.186 --> 01:21:59.440 - I want to talk a little bit about the sorrow over the home that these people had. I know that it must 01:21:59.440 --> 01:22:05.939 - have been a terrible thing to have happened that their home was burned. But I want to talk about a larger 01:22:05.939 --> 01:22:11.518 - home that we all share. And this home has only been discussed really for a very short time 01:22:11.682 --> 01:22:18.080 - recently it was discussed, maybe it was discussed and held in sacredness a long time ago. But just recently 01:22:18.080 --> 01:22:24.183 - we've just decided that there's only one home for the human race in our planetary system. And that one 01:22:24.183 --> 01:22:30.463 - home, that one home that has us all living here, that can take care of us all, animals, plants and humans 01:22:30.463 --> 01:22:36.624 - is the earth. And that home has been violated. And that's what I'd like to say. I'd like to say we need 01:22:36.624 --> 01:22:38.046 - to think about our home 01:22:38.146 --> 01:22:44.041 - our home where we cannot go anyplace else. We can't go to Mars. Mars is not ready for us. It has no 01:22:44.041 --> 01:22:49.935 - air to breathe. It has no water. It has no land. We can't go to Mars. So when our water is unfit to 01:22:49.935 --> 01:22:55.889 - drink, when our land can't grow our food, when our air is unfit to breathe, we can't go anywhere but 01:22:55.889 --> 01:23:01.842 - here. We have to start thinking about the violence that we are causing ourselves. I'm going to leave 01:23:01.842 --> 01:23:06.558 - the animals and the other nations out right now, because to tell you the truth, 01:23:06.978 --> 01:23:12.623 - We don't consider them. If we considered them, we would not be doing what we're doing. There is heavy 01:23:12.623 --> 01:23:18.489 - extinctions going on right now. This is called a cataclysm, a cataclysm of extinctions. So we are causing 01:23:18.489 --> 01:23:24.024 - great extinctions of animal species and plant species. They are not concerned to us, obviously. But 01:23:24.024 --> 01:23:29.669 - we are concerned to ourselves. And the pollutants that we are putting into the air every day and into 01:23:29.669 --> 01:23:33.598 - the soil and water every day are causing birth defects, causing sexual 01:23:33.730 --> 01:23:42.014 - It's a deviancy. It's actual harm to the sexuality of the child. Breast cancers test 01:23:42.114 --> 01:23:47.251 - testicular cancers, all kinds of horrible things are happening underneath our noses. You can't tell 01:23:47.251 --> 01:23:52.593 - me that we are living longer lives. This whole thing has only started for 50 years. Maybe we are living 01:23:52.593 --> 01:23:57.884 - longer lives in the short run, but we have to look seven generations into the future. We are not going 01:23:57.884 --> 01:24:03.175 - to be living longer lives in the future if we continue on the path that we have undertaken. We are not 01:24:03.175 --> 01:24:08.568 - stopping the pollutants. We are not stopping the chemicals. There are thousands of chemicals being added 01:24:08.568 --> 01:24:10.366 - to our air, water, and soil daily. 01:24:11.362 --> 01:24:17.495 - There are pollutants being added to our bodies daily. There are pollutants being added to our children's 01:24:17.495 --> 01:24:23.570 - bodies. Our children are suffering from this. If we can't think about our children, why should we think 01:24:23.570 --> 01:24:29.586 - about animals or plants? It's ridiculous. We need to think about the violence to our home. This is the 01:24:29.586 --> 01:24:35.135 - only planet that is safe and comfortable for human beings. If we don't think about our planet, 01:24:35.135 --> 01:24:37.822 - we will expire. If that's what we want to do, 01:24:38.082 --> 01:24:44.129 - then we continue on the path that we are. I don't want to talk about Elf and their violence to a machine 01:24:44.129 --> 01:24:49.946 - or to their violence to a home. I'm sorry for the people who have found a problem with that. Really, 01:24:49.946 --> 01:24:55.705 - my heart does go out to them. But I'm concerned with the violence to our home, our mutual home, our 01:24:55.705 --> 01:25:02.040 - home for all the creatures, the animals, the humans, the people, the children, the women, the men, everybody. 01:25:02.040 --> 01:25:04.574 - We have to think about that, and we're not. 01:25:17.186 --> 01:25:24.029 - My name is Sherry Sammis. I have been a lifelong resident of Bloomington. Hello, Mr. Pitchford. Have 01:25:24.029 --> 01:25:31.347 - we been through it? You could look up our history for the last 30 years. We have been fighting Westinghouse 01:25:31.347 --> 01:25:38.257 - and PCBs and golf courses and everything for decades. Anyway, we are not responsive. You were talking 01:25:38.257 --> 01:25:42.526 - about how we are not responsive. We are not responsive because 01:25:42.818 --> 01:25:51.609 - the government is not responsive to us, and many of us have felt like giving up. So I just wanted to 01:25:51.609 --> 01:26:00.575 - make that point. The other thing I wanted to say is we all performed a great act of civil disobedience 01:26:00.575 --> 01:26:09.540 - tonight by coming here. That's a great start. John Fernandez, our special ET, environmental terrorist, 01:26:09.540 --> 01:26:10.846 - of the county, 01:26:11.362 --> 01:26:18.190 - is not here tonight, did not want us to appear tonight. And I suggest we take this meeting from here 01:26:18.190 --> 01:26:25.288 - on in and decide what we are going to do to change things. We are all here right now. We have some great 01:26:25.288 --> 01:26:32.318 - minds. We have people who have put effort into this for 30 years. We're here. We're ready. Let's do it. 01:26:48.450 --> 01:26:55.311 - I don't know anybody here, except a few people, and I don't care. I'm not afraid of speaking to all 01:26:55.311 --> 01:27:02.652 - you. What I have to say is this. When we destroy something that was built by humans, then we're destroying 01:27:02.652 --> 01:27:09.512 - nature because it's human's nature to build things. And it's also human's nature to destroy things. 01:27:09.512 --> 01:27:16.030 - Destruction is the counterweight that levels out life. And you know, destruction is important. 01:27:16.130 --> 01:27:22.538 - construction is important but whatever we do it's part of nature because what goes on in this earth 01:27:22.538 --> 01:27:29.009 - that's nature and maybe somebody's watching us maybe it's God or maybe it's nobody at all but in any 01:27:29.009 --> 01:27:35.417 - case you know whatever we do you know it's just gonna happen because that's nature we can't control 01:27:35.417 --> 01:27:39.518 - what animals do we can't control what we do we're just doing it 01:27:51.170 --> 01:27:58.884 - I just want to say, if indeed you are correct in your assumptions, I think we're a sorry state. 01:27:58.884 --> 01:28:07.161 - Thank you. Well, I think the comments that were just made are well taken, because oft times people are 01:28:07.161 --> 01:28:15.357 - told, get with the system, as Tim said, or get out of it. And there is no outside the system. This is 01:28:15.357 --> 01:28:19.294 - a planet. We're all on it. And there is a truth. 01:28:19.490 --> 01:28:26.173 - to the fact that what people do is part of human nature. And the kinds of responses, whether you agree 01:28:26.173 --> 01:28:32.725 - with them or not, that ELF is making are natural responses to the type of aggressions that are being 01:28:32.725 --> 01:28:39.797 - made against our very lives and against the things that are necessary for our children and our grandchildren 01:28:39.797 --> 01:28:45.182 - to survive. And that's always been in the realm of what's considered self-defense. 01:28:46.050 --> 01:28:54.109 - If a person defends their children or the right of their grandchildren to live, and somebody comes up 01:28:54.109 --> 01:29:02.563 - and says, that's illegal. Oh, I think you broke a law protecting your child. Well, this country, so-called 01:29:02.563 --> 01:29:10.780 - country, was founded on acts of breaking the law. Private property. Tea was dumped in the harbor. Ships 01:29:10.780 --> 01:29:13.150 - were scuttled. The king's law 01:29:13.826 --> 01:29:20.009 - was broken, broken, broken, broken, broken. And there were agencies at that time, just like the FBI, 01:29:20.009 --> 01:29:26.254 - just like the police. These are good people staffing these agencies. They're trying to make a living. 01:29:26.254 --> 01:29:32.376 - They're trying to feed their families. They don't really want to hurt anybody. They want to do good 01:29:32.376 --> 01:29:38.559 - things. They find themselves caught. What do I do? We're trying to maintain order. We try to enforce 01:29:38.559 --> 01:29:43.518 - the law. We try to protect people. Well, that's exactly what the people from ELF 01:29:43.618 --> 01:29:51.007 - are also trying to do. Now, there's a big disagreement between the two over whether those means are 01:29:51.007 --> 01:29:58.765 - appropriate. But I think we have reached a point of crisis. I don't like to see a child have nightmares, 01:29:58.765 --> 01:30:06.302 - but I sure as hell would rather my child had a nightmare than to not have air or to not have water or 01:30:06.302 --> 01:30:10.366 - to not have any other species surviving on the planet. 01:30:11.106 --> 01:30:17.502 - something they're accustomed to. I think nature has to be protected. This is a basic urge and instinct. 01:30:17.502 --> 01:30:23.776 - And there is such a thing as natural law, as well as the laws made by our God-forsaken legislators up 01:30:23.776 --> 01:30:30.049 - in Indianapolis or in Washington, D.C. And I'd like to make one other point. This is addressed to all 01:30:30.049 --> 01:30:30.910 - three of you. 01:30:31.874 --> 01:30:37.636 - You know, when our country was founded, like I said, there were people like Patrick Henry. There were 01:30:37.636 --> 01:30:43.567 - people like Thomas Jefferson that said we needed a revolution every 10 years, probably to keep the state 01:30:43.567 --> 01:30:49.272 - from becoming too oppressive. If Lincoln, you mentioned Lincoln, Tim, were alive today, his children 01:30:49.272 --> 01:30:55.260 - would all be taken away from him because if he didn't have electricity or if he raised them in a one-room 01:30:55.260 --> 01:31:01.022 - house. So I appreciate that people ought to be upfront and they ought to take credit for what they do 01:31:01.250 --> 01:31:08.993 - And if they did, and enough of us did that, that would have the most effect. But it's hard to blame 01:31:08.993 --> 01:31:17.123 - people for not walking into the meat grinder. Yeah, and my question is, how do you recommend that people 01:31:17.123 --> 01:31:24.944 - address the very issue of survivability of their children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren? 01:31:24.944 --> 01:31:29.822 - By just saying, well, whatever the law is made, we protect it. 01:31:30.466 --> 01:31:39.486 - These people that are breaking the law, we have to look farther than that, I think, don't we? And ask, 01:31:39.486 --> 01:31:48.419 - are they doing something good or are they doing something bad? I'll make a comment. You know, I study 01:31:48.419 --> 01:31:57.265 - government through political science and philosophy. And I understand there's a lot of philosophical 01:31:57.265 --> 01:31:59.454 - points of view and noble 01:31:59.746 --> 01:32:05.715 - issues brought to bear here. But, you know, when this country was formed and put together, they took 01:32:05.715 --> 01:32:11.683 - into consideration the tyranny of kings and the tyranny of government. And we made this a government 01:32:11.683 --> 01:32:17.711 - of the people, by the people, and for the people. And if you have a problem with your legislature not 01:32:17.711 --> 01:32:23.680 - passing the right laws, you know, you've got to start telling people that you want so-and-so to vote 01:32:23.680 --> 01:32:25.630 - a certain way or throw them out. 01:32:25.954 --> 01:32:31.757 - And if you think there's a judge that's not ruling in behalf of a particular issue, you need to write 01:32:31.757 --> 01:32:37.617 - him a letter. You need to have meetings like this and point out. If you think your postmaster is doing 01:32:37.617 --> 01:32:43.307 - something, not delivering your mail properly or taking your little birthday cards that are in there 01:32:43.307 --> 01:32:49.167 - and doing something, do a petition in your neighborhood to the postmaster. Have that post, that letter 01:32:49.167 --> 01:32:54.686 - carrier removed. If you think your public servants are not doing their job to your satisfaction, 01:32:54.946 --> 01:33:01.669 - You've got to do something to it. You don't go out and burn down a house and then... There's a lot of 01:33:01.669 --> 01:33:08.393 - things you can do. I mean, there's a lot of things you can do. And I'm not saying, you know, breaking 01:33:08.393 --> 01:33:15.182 - the law is what you ought to do. I'm just saying you ought to consider all the options before you burn 01:33:15.182 --> 01:33:22.038 - down a house. I would just add to that. Well, what if all the other options are exhausted and have been 01:33:22.038 --> 01:33:23.422 - exhausted for years? 01:33:25.762 --> 01:33:33.604 - I mean, who's saying that? I am. Well, then people in Marion County Jail have the same perception. They're 01:33:33.604 --> 01:33:41.154 - all criminals. I mean, they all did something that took them beyond the brink, too. So was Rosa Parks, 01:33:41.154 --> 01:33:48.849 - Martin Luther King, the four students at Greensboro, North Carolina, were they all criminals, too, then? 01:33:48.849 --> 01:33:55.006 - Oh, give me a break. I'd like to go back to the suggestion that we have been fairly 01:33:55.586 --> 01:34:04.531 - complacent as a unit. I see a lot of energy here tonight, and I think that we are capable of real forms 01:34:04.531 --> 01:34:13.389 - of civil action, civil agency that we perhaps have neglected, and that it would be I think we probably 01:34:13.389 --> 01:34:21.990 - could get more done if we were willing not as, Mike, none of us want to walk into the meat grinder, 01:34:21.990 --> 01:34:25.086 - walk under the bulldozer, walk into 01:34:25.282 --> 01:34:32.868 - an arrest that was just going to lock us up for five years or something like that. But I think many 01:34:32.868 --> 01:34:40.529 - of us here are willing, are going to be much more willing, going to be much more motivated if we can 01:34:40.529 --> 01:34:48.191 - do things together. Those of us who have been arrested find it an enormously empowering event if you 01:34:48.191 --> 01:34:54.942 - have a lot of friends there and if you believe in the cause and you've been well trained 01:34:55.426 --> 01:35:03.610 - in the discipline of civil disobedience, the Gandhian form, much can be done. I don't think we have 01:35:03.610 --> 01:35:12.285 - exhausted the means, but I do admire the courage that the kind of guerrilla activity that Elf undertakes. 01:35:12.285 --> 01:35:20.550 - I don't think these clandestine acts are without courage. I don't think that's mere cowardice, but I 01:35:20.550 --> 01:35:23.742 - think another kind of courage, another 01:35:24.066 --> 01:35:32.096 - more creative kind of courage another more democratic kind of courage is still possible and i i i think 01:35:32.096 --> 01:35:39.894 - uh... tonight's a good night and i wish we would also have some sort of way of getting lots of names 01:35:39.894 --> 01:35:48.387 - together for future uh... uh... demonstrations when we have an issue and i think the fernandez administration 01:35:48.387 --> 01:35:53.406 - is a good uh... uh... uh... uh... nodal point we'd appreciate it 01:35:53.506 --> 01:36:04.570 - you'd let folks that haven't spoken yet come through first. We would appreciate it, just a courtesy. 01:36:04.570 --> 01:36:15.635 - Well, no, I'm not looking for problems. We established we'd let everybody speak at least once before 01:36:15.635 --> 01:36:20.126 - we started repeats. All I can do is ask. 01:36:29.218 --> 01:36:49.642 - All I can do is ask if you'd be kind enough to wait until the other folks have spoken. All I can do 01:36:49.642 --> 01:36:56.382 - is ask if you insist on talking. 01:36:56.578 --> 01:37:05.202 - I would like everyone to be able to get back in line and speak as much as they want. What I have to 01:37:05.202 --> 01:37:14.257 - say is that as I look around me, I don't see any black faces in this audience. That's not a coincidence. 01:37:14.257 --> 01:37:23.225 - Jason, I lied. My friend Jason is here, and he's way in the back, and he's black as he can be. But just 01:37:23.225 --> 01:37:25.726 - let me say, beautiful to me. 01:37:27.170 --> 01:37:33.431 - When I began school here, now we're talking about violence that the state does to people and the context 01:37:33.431 --> 01:37:39.752 - that we are living in and continue to live in. From the bottom to the top, our authorities have a history 01:37:39.752 --> 01:37:45.775 - of forgetting the violence they participated in. When I began school, the blacks here were forced to 01:37:45.775 --> 01:37:50.366 - attend Banneker Segregated School. The police force was used to keep them in 01:37:50.466 --> 01:37:57.344 - Bucktown at night, black students were not allowed to live on campus, and blacks could only drink alcohol 01:37:57.344 --> 01:38:03.963 - on election day when the politicians brought them whiskey. Now, all the time that this has been going 01:38:03.963 --> 01:38:10.451 - on, and we're talking, our only law enforcement official here tonight is federal, all this time the 01:38:10.451 --> 01:38:16.940 - feds have been busy. They've been implicated in the Kennedy murders. They've been implicated in the 01:38:16.940 --> 01:38:18.238 - murder of Dr. King. 01:38:19.138 --> 01:38:26.807 - His family thinks the FBI had something to do with the death of these people, the murder of Malcolm 01:38:26.807 --> 01:38:35.089 - X, the men who would have been our president, the killing at Kent State, Jackson State, the Black Panthers, 01:38:35.089 --> 01:38:42.912 - George Jackson gunned down in prison. There's a lot of murders that the state has committed, violence 01:38:42.912 --> 01:38:48.510 - against people. Meanwhile, here at home, we're the new Native Americans, 01:38:48.706 --> 01:38:54.331 - and we're being buried alive. Our most powerful citizen, Bobby Knight, can strangle local citizens who 01:38:54.331 --> 01:38:59.955 - call him on racist speech and never face a public hearing over the matter because our local prosecutor 01:38:59.955 --> 01:39:05.525 - won't do his job. And that same prosecutor can assault and pull a gun on an unarmed woman motorist in 01:39:05.525 --> 01:39:11.095 - February, and that's not allowed in court either. So when we try to deal with problems about violence 01:39:11.095 --> 01:39:13.662 - in our community, our courts are closed to us. 01:39:14.114 --> 01:39:20.226 - And we may think that it's a victory that we've prevented a PCB-burning incinerator from being built 01:39:20.226 --> 01:39:26.458 - here. But really, we've only been defeated halfway, because the cleanup's never begun, really, not for 01:39:26.458 --> 01:39:32.872 - the citizens and not for the investigation of where things have been dumped. And if we think that Highway 01:39:32.872 --> 01:39:39.710 - 69 is a victory, it's not. We staved off a defeat for a certain amount of time. We haven't been victorious here. 01:39:40.706 --> 01:39:46.279 - We've had our ass kicked here for 30 years, and the politicians haven't listened to us a bit. And people 01:39:46.279 --> 01:39:51.851 - that have tried to open up the election laws and make them more democratic, like Mike Andrews over here, 01:39:51.851 --> 01:39:56.734 - ended up spending time in prison for it. So I've had my piece now. Thank you for listening. 01:40:04.226 --> 01:40:14.144 - My name is Marty Crouch and I would like to get back to a few more practical, not that I don't have 01:40:14.144 --> 01:40:23.070 - deep philosophical thoughts, but back to some practical implications of ELF type actions. 01:40:23.234 --> 01:40:31.267 - what Mark was just saying about some of the previous actions that have been attributed to the FBI and 01:40:31.267 --> 01:40:39.301 - some of the other activist movements, the AIM movement and the Judy Berry bombing and all those sorts 01:40:39.301 --> 01:40:47.255 - of things. You know, when people live together after 20 or 30 years, they often start to look alike. 01:40:47.255 --> 01:40:52.926 - And what I'm concerned about is that with the ELF style of tactics that 01:40:53.122 --> 01:41:03.635 - the dance between the FBI and the ELF becomes such a close tango that the ELF starts to look too much 01:41:03.635 --> 01:41:14.457 - like the FBI and also that it is too easily co-opted. And to be very specific, the tree spiking recently 01:41:14.457 --> 01:41:18.270 - that I just heard was claimed by ELF 01:41:18.370 --> 01:41:26.628 - was done on the morning of the roadless area hearings in Martinsville. And my first thought was that 01:41:26.628 --> 01:41:35.214 - timing is too perfect. That had to be a saboteur. It couldn't have been an environmentalist. They aren't 01:41:35.214 --> 01:41:43.717 - that stupid. And so the actions, the anonymous actions that are based on the arson and the tree spiking 01:41:43.717 --> 01:41:44.862 - and so forth, 01:41:45.154 --> 01:41:53.533 - and done in anonymous cells where you don't know who's doing it are so easily co-opted. Anybody who 01:41:53.533 --> 01:42:02.164 - wants to give a bad name in the community or to disrupt, say, the credibility of the environmentalists 01:42:02.164 --> 01:42:10.711 - at the roadless area hearing or to take the sense of unanimity from the golf course struggle and bust 01:42:10.711 --> 01:42:12.638 - it apart into factions 01:42:12.738 --> 01:42:21.176 - or get everybody mistrusting each other and wondering, well, is there an FBI plant in my group? And, 01:42:21.176 --> 01:42:29.697 - you know, are they tapping my phone and all that kind of stuff? It's so easy to co-opt. How do you do 01:42:29.697 --> 01:42:38.135 - those kinds of tactics and not become a look-alike with the FBI and also co-opted by the forces that 01:42:38.135 --> 01:42:41.310 - you would not like to be co-opted by? 01:42:42.434 --> 01:42:48.660 - start by saying the federal government of the United States of America murders people in cold blood 01:42:48.660 --> 01:42:55.011 - every single day of the year. We're still bombing Iraq. The ELF, the Earth Liberation Front, does not 01:42:55.011 --> 01:43:01.237 - cause violence towards people. I've already stated that. Second of all, he brought up a good point. 01:43:01.237 --> 01:43:07.774 - How do I know? How do spokespeople know who is involved in the ELF or if there isn't even an ELF at all? 01:43:08.162 --> 01:43:14.532 - It could be an company burning down their own structure for insurance reasons. It could be some agent 01:43:14.532 --> 01:43:21.401 - provocateur who wants to sabotage a movement. And the truth of the matter is, it could be. They're anonymous. 01:43:21.401 --> 01:43:27.646 - I don't know who they are. You folks don't know who they are. At least I don't know if you know who 01:43:27.646 --> 01:43:33.891 - they are. What we can do as a society, what we can do as a movement, if you include yourself in the 01:43:33.891 --> 01:43:35.390 - environmental movement, 01:43:35.810 --> 01:43:41.025 - is to realize these actions are going to happen whether or not we like them, whether or not we agree 01:43:41.025 --> 01:43:46.188 - with them or not. They're going to happen. What we can do as a movement is to realize they're going 01:43:46.188 --> 01:43:51.351 - to happen and to think that now is our chance, now is our opportunity, now is our responsibility to 01:43:51.351 --> 01:43:56.824 - deal with the aftermath of actions that have already happened. And I think the only way we can strengthen 01:43:56.824 --> 01:44:02.348 - our movement is to not come out and publicly condemn these actions, thereby splitting a large line through 01:44:02.348 --> 01:44:03.742 - the environmental movement 01:44:03.970 --> 01:44:12.602 - which is usually what the work of the FBI is for, what is the true strengthening of our movement is 01:44:12.602 --> 01:44:21.493 - to come out and embrace all different sorts of tactics because it's been a historical example that all 01:44:21.493 --> 01:44:30.298 - different sorts of tactics are what makes social movement successful. By simply saying something does 01:44:30.298 --> 01:44:32.542 - not make it true, the FBI 01:44:33.058 --> 01:44:41.412 - is not involved in spiking trees. The FBI is involved in investigating people that burn down arsons, 01:44:41.412 --> 01:44:49.767 - or burn down homes, commit arsons, and sabotage bulldozers, that bomb buildings, that kidnap people, 01:44:49.767 --> 01:44:58.287 - that assassinate people, whether they be presidents, or whether they be Martin Luther King, or whether 01:44:58.287 --> 01:45:01.182 - they be you or I. What about what? 01:45:03.074 --> 01:45:10.618 - COINTELPRO was an intelligence program in the 60s. What about it? Well, we're here talking about another 01:45:10.618 --> 01:45:18.090 - matter. You almost have to explain the 60s to talk about that. I'm not saying everything in COINTELPRO. 01:45:18.090 --> 01:45:25.706 - I don't even know everything about COINTELPRO, but it was a program. It was a counterintelligence program 01:45:25.706 --> 01:45:31.166 - that I know that certain letters were written to certain activists who were 01:45:31.618 --> 01:45:39.853 - advocating violence. And I mean, I know about as much as probably you know, but I can't say that everything 01:45:39.853 --> 01:45:47.860 - the FBI has done has been clinically perfect. But the FBI does not go out and commit arsons and murders. 01:45:47.860 --> 01:45:55.714 - And if you say it, it doesn't make it so. And people are saying things like that. And all you're doing 01:45:55.714 --> 01:46:00.670 - is sort of distancing yourself from any perception of legitimate 01:46:00.802 --> 01:46:07.164 - government because you're saying the state. I mean that's what Marxists do. They talk about the state 01:46:07.164 --> 01:46:13.401 - and that's because over there it is the state. You've got communist dictators running countries and 01:46:13.401 --> 01:46:19.388 - so it is the state. Here it's the government of the people. You get to vote. It's capitalistic. 01:46:19.388 --> 01:46:21.758 - So what else? What's the alternative? 01:46:24.770 --> 01:46:33.488 - I just wanted to make, I think Craig has put his finger on, and Marty too, on a key issue that we all 01:46:33.488 --> 01:46:42.207 - have to think seriously about. That is, how do we justify our ethical agency? And Craig, on behalf of 01:46:42.207 --> 01:46:50.840 - ELF, is espousing what philosophers call a consequentialism, that somehow the fruits or the end does 01:46:50.840 --> 01:46:54.686 - justify the activity. This is a tough issue. 01:46:54.818 --> 01:47:08.556 - My own position is that even if the consequentialism, sorry, even if it were true that ELF activity 01:47:08.556 --> 01:47:22.843 - were successful, I don't think success would be the ultimate ethical criterion. That's a very difficult 01:47:22.843 --> 01:47:24.766 - issue. Sorry. 01:47:25.410 --> 01:47:47.394 - I'd like to speak from my heart to Craig. I sort of wish we were doing it over a beer, but we won't 01:47:47.394 --> 01:47:52.670 - get to. I'm a pacifist. 01:47:52.898 --> 01:48:02.084 - I was a conscientious objector during Vietnam. I'm morally, ethically, and religiously a pacifist. I'm 01:48:02.084 --> 01:48:11.627 - a member of this church. And I recommend pacifism highly. But aside from the moral issues, I think there's 01:48:11.627 --> 01:48:18.494 - a strategic issue. And that is, we will never outviolence the establishment. 01:48:18.818 --> 01:48:27.993 - We'll never out-violence the FBI, the US Army, the CIA, and all of these forces. When we seek and turn 01:48:27.993 --> 01:48:37.258 - to violence, even if it's only directed against property, it certainly meets my definition of violence, 01:48:37.258 --> 01:48:46.344 - even though it's directed only against property. We'll never beat them with violence. The great force 01:48:46.344 --> 01:48:48.126 - of the 20th century 01:48:48.706 --> 01:48:57.748 - The great invention was nonviolence, nonviolence in which the person from Thoreau through Gandhi and 01:48:57.748 --> 01:49:07.238 - King and through today stands up and accepts responsibility for their conduct as a moral act, even alone, 01:49:07.238 --> 01:49:17.086 - hopefully in the hundreds and thousands. That is, I believe, in this millennium, going to be the great lesson 01:49:17.378 --> 01:49:29.421 - of the 20th century. I implore you, I implore you and those people you don't know, but who communicate 01:49:29.421 --> 01:49:42.166 - with you to consider that a large bulk of what I, my perception of the activist community, of the ecological 01:49:42.166 --> 01:49:46.142 - community does not want violence. 01:49:46.370 --> 01:49:56.401 - as a part of what we do. And when you say, when we condemn you, we are causing the splinter, I think 01:49:56.401 --> 01:50:05.438 - you may be the splinter that is keeping us from doing the kind of united actions that have 01:50:05.602 --> 01:50:15.425 - the I think almost the only hope certainly infinitely more hope than any form of violence of reforming 01:50:15.425 --> 01:50:24.962 - our culture to one that does not over consume and continuously destroy and overpopulate this planet 01:50:24.962 --> 01:50:35.358 - I implore you to consider leading those who have advocated non and violence not against humans to abandon it 01:50:35.458 --> 01:50:47.362 - Thank you so much. Thank you for your comments and I respect your position as a pacifist. I'll address 01:50:47.362 --> 01:50:58.920 - your points in two different parts. The first of which, I've never advocated a direct action on its 01:50:58.920 --> 01:51:01.694 - own by itself as a sole 01:51:02.434 --> 01:51:11.128 - entity or tactic will change the world or change the way our injustices are in the world. What I do 01:51:11.128 --> 01:51:19.997 - advocate is it being used as one tactic among many when a social movement has come to the point where 01:51:19.997 --> 01:51:28.778 - it has exhausted other forms of peaceful social change. I also think that discussing pacifism, I too 01:51:28.778 --> 01:51:30.430 - have been schooled 01:51:30.594 --> 01:51:36.233 - I believe in what I consider the Gandhi and the Thoreau School of Pacifism. I studied that for a long 01:51:36.233 --> 01:51:41.928 - time, put on workshops around the country on that philosophy. And I, for the most part, agree with it. 01:51:41.928 --> 01:51:47.678 - The thing I don't agree with is the overall assumption that every single social movement out there that 01:51:47.678 --> 01:51:53.262 - has gained success has done so through nonviolence on its own without the help of direct action as a 01:51:53.262 --> 01:51:58.238 - use and a necessity. What we learn going up in our educational systems a lot of times are 01:51:58.626 --> 01:52:05.287 - Once in a while we have had to break laws in this country to further social change. It hardly ever happens 01:52:05.287 --> 01:52:11.699 - anymore, of course, but years ago we had a lot of things that went on and when it came time to conduct 01:52:11.699 --> 01:52:18.111 - civil disobedience in the manner that you have spoke of and I just talked about briefly, then that was 01:52:18.111 --> 01:52:24.772 - accepted and we're taught that that was a good thing. What we're not taught about in our schooling system, 01:52:24.772 --> 01:52:26.142 - what we're not taught 01:52:26.562 --> 01:52:33.200 - about on our mass media and our culture for the most part is the role direct action has had in social 01:52:33.200 --> 01:52:39.839 - movements throughout history and is still going on in different parts of the world. So I respect your 01:52:39.839 --> 01:52:46.933 - position. I do consider myself a nonviolent activist. Obviously I have a different definition of nonviolence 01:52:46.933 --> 01:52:53.701 - than you do as it pertains to property. But that's the route I choose and that's why I'm a spokesperson 01:52:53.701 --> 01:52:55.198 - for this organization. 01:52:58.818 --> 01:53:05.441 - My name is Jeff Isaac. I do a lot of things around Bloomington. One of them is I teach political science 01:53:05.441 --> 01:53:12.127 - at IU. This is a very complicated subject. I want to applaud Jim Hart for the nuance of his presentation. 01:53:12.127 --> 01:53:18.498 - I want to make three points and I'll try to make them really quickly and be concise. The first point 01:53:18.498 --> 01:53:20.958 - has to do with speaking for the earth. 01:53:21.058 --> 01:53:27.334 - in Dr. Seuss's well-known book, The Lorax. The Lorax says he speaks for the trees. The question is, 01:53:27.334 --> 01:53:33.861 - who is privileged to speak for the trees or to speak for the earth? I would submit no one is privileged 01:53:33.861 --> 01:53:40.639 - to speak for the trees or for the earth. And I would simply submit that there is an extraordinary arrogance 01:53:40.639 --> 01:53:47.166 - behind some of the rhetoric of the earth liberation front. Second point, the earth cannot be liberated. 01:53:47.970 --> 01:53:54.269 - The earth can be properly used or it can be misused. The earth is currently being misused. It is being 01:53:54.269 --> 01:54:00.506 - abused. But this statement, that the earth is being abused, is a human claim, a fallible claim, based 01:54:00.506 --> 01:54:07.294 - on criteria that are not self-evident. Only we can redeem such a claim through discourse and through politics. 01:54:07.906 --> 01:54:13.462 - We humans must attend to the abuses of the Earth by making serious arguments about ecology and public 01:54:13.462 --> 01:54:18.908 - policy, by making political choices based on public opinions, by trying to organize people. What is 01:54:18.908 --> 01:54:24.791 - striking about the rhetoric of the Earth Liberation Front, and I think it's evidenced in this presentation, 01:54:24.791 --> 01:54:30.237 - is it is really anti-political. There's no serious effort to convince anybody of anything. You have 01:54:30.237 --> 01:54:35.902 - a true believer, or maybe a small group of anonymous true believers, who claim they know what is right, 01:54:36.098 --> 01:54:42.582 - And they say to you, they don't really care what public opinion thinks. Either you're with them or, 01:54:42.582 --> 01:54:49.131 - or else you don't really matter. That is a profoundly anti-political stance. Third point, how should 01:54:49.131 --> 01:54:55.615 - we make political choices and do politics? There is no method superior to democracy. We do not live 01:54:55.615 --> 01:55:02.942 - in a fully democratic society. We live in a profoundly, profoundly constrained and imperfect and flawed society. 01:55:03.426 --> 01:55:10.157 - But we do possess a broad array of civil and political rights. These rights are the hard-won results 01:55:10.157 --> 01:55:16.955 - of serious mass movements for social change. The people who participated in these movements would not 01:55:16.955 --> 01:55:24.153 - disparage these rights in the way that they've been implicitly disparaged in Craig Rozebrah's presentation. 01:55:24.153 --> 01:55:31.084 - As citizens, we must exercise these rights to engage, to organize, and to mobilize others. We must work 01:55:31.084 --> 01:55:33.150 - politically to convince others 01:55:33.410 --> 01:55:39.618 - of the injustice of current arrangements and to effect change through the law, perhaps sometimes by 01:55:39.618 --> 01:55:46.013 - breaking the law, but always in a self-limiting, serious, and civil disobedient way. What Bill Breeden 01:55:46.013 --> 01:55:52.470 - said is true. There's serious politics going on here. It's politics that has confronted obstacles, that 01:55:52.470 --> 01:55:55.326 - has experienced failures, and also successes. 01:56:14.146 --> 01:56:19.991 - Lorax says they can speak for the trees. Well, if that's not OK, and we say that no one can speak for 01:56:19.991 --> 01:56:25.893 - the trees, why is it that we have multinational corporations doing just that? They're speaking for the 01:56:25.893 --> 01:56:31.681 - trees. They're speaking for the trees saying, our trees are of no value. We can cut them down simply 01:56:31.681 --> 01:56:37.583 - to make a number of dollars for our back pocket. They're speaking for the trees in a negative way. Why 01:56:37.583 --> 01:56:42.110 - is it so wrong for us to stand up for the trees in a positive way? Next point. 01:56:45.954 --> 01:56:53.721 - Am I talking now? Second of all, the earth can be liberated. It can be liberated from human over exploitation 01:56:53.721 --> 01:57:01.206 - and destruction, pure and simple. Third point, you say that these people and myself do not want to engage 01:57:01.206 --> 01:57:08.480 - in the political process. Well, a lot of us are disillusioned with the political process because a lot 01:57:08.480 --> 01:57:12.222 - of times in this pseudo-democracy, it does not work. 01:57:12.994 --> 01:57:19.060 - and there are countless people in here who would agree with me. We've already testified to that. I came, 01:57:19.060 --> 01:57:24.895 - I traveled all the way from Portland, Oregon to do just that, participate in a public forum which is 01:57:24.895 --> 01:57:30.904 - a political process to try and educate people in this community along with a panel here on these issues 01:57:30.904 --> 01:57:36.970 - that affect your community. I didn't come here to boast my own career. I don't get paid a cent for this. 01:57:36.970 --> 01:57:41.534 - I came here because these issues are important and political, pure and simple. 01:57:48.386 --> 01:57:56.384 - I just want to briefly come back to one point that I think keeps recurring, and it has to do in some 01:57:56.384 --> 01:58:04.936 - ways with the tangled relationship of ethics and politics. And I think that the commitment to the political 01:58:04.936 --> 01:58:13.171 - process, commitment to democracy in the present is necessary for bringing about an ideal form or a much 01:58:13.171 --> 01:58:16.734 - ameliorated form of democracy in the future. 01:58:17.442 --> 01:58:26.489 - But I also want to say that our agency, when we feel that the present laws are working against us, that 01:58:26.489 --> 01:58:35.709 - our agency still has to be an ethical agency. And I don't think the basis of ethical agency can be belief 01:58:35.709 --> 01:58:45.278 - in what succeeds. I think many forms of ethical agency would be regarded as unethical if they were foolhardy. 01:58:45.506 --> 01:58:54.664 - if they were stupid and so forth and so on. But if it were true, if Craig is right, that violence or 01:58:54.664 --> 01:59:01.918 - certain forms of guerrilla violence or certain forms of destruction of property 01:59:02.018 --> 01:59:11.787 - or ELF's version of nonviolence were successful, I still think we can raise the issue of whether it's 01:59:11.787 --> 01:59:21.748 - appropriate ethically. And I think that that's the issue we really haven't addressed. My voice is soft. 01:59:21.748 --> 01:59:31.326 - I want to be sure I'm speaking so that I can be heard. Okay. I'll try. Can you hear at this volume? 01:59:32.002 --> 01:59:40.705 - Okay. I'm reading because I am disabled by a chemical injury and I have some cognitive dysfunction. 01:59:40.705 --> 01:59:49.408 - And so I put my words on paper to help me keep my thoughts straight for you. And I'm here. I'm here 01:59:49.408 --> 01:59:58.458 - to ask the people of Bloomington to contact local government officials to stop raw sewage leaching into 01:59:58.458 --> 02:00:00.286 - Cascades Park Creek. 02:00:02.178 --> 02:00:10.541 - In this document, when I refer to a resident and a tenant, I'm speaking of myself. I wrote it in third 02:00:10.541 --> 02:00:18.905 - person to help me keep my focus. A faulty septic sewer system has been leaching sewage into the ground 02:00:18.905 --> 02:00:27.512 - for months on property owned by DGTL, Incorporated. Just yards away from a creek in Cascades Park, states 02:00:27.512 --> 02:00:30.110 - a local resident. On June 12th, 02:00:30.530 --> 02:00:37.459 - representatives of the Monroe County health department and Bloomington's office of housing and development, 02:00:37.459 --> 02:00:43.874 - neighborhood development, the hand office responding to the residents complaint, inspected the site 02:00:43.874 --> 02:00:50.610 - on June 13th, sewer trucks extracted waste from the septic holding tanks. This reduced the sewage stench 02:00:50.610 --> 02:00:55.678 - on the property, but did not address the basic soundness of the septic system. 02:00:58.690 --> 02:01:04.749 - For the next two weeks, the resident, who rents an apartment on the property, sought information and 02:01:04.749 --> 02:01:10.928 - assistance in solving the sewage problem from the Monroe County Building Department, the Monroe County 02:01:10.928 --> 02:01:17.227 - Health Department, Hand, City of Bloomington Utilities, the City Engineer, and the Mayor's office. These 02:01:17.227 --> 02:01:23.527 - offices were unable to provide public records on the planning, permits, and inspections on the privately 02:01:23.527 --> 02:01:27.966 - owned septic system, which consists of three holding tanks and two pumps. 02:01:29.058 --> 02:01:35.108 - Waste from two apartment buildings is collected in two tanks and is pumped across a small creek to the 02:01:35.108 --> 02:01:41.040 - third tank, where the second pump forces the waste uphill and across Clubhouse Road to join the city 02:01:41.040 --> 02:01:47.031 - sewers. City Utility's computer map of the city sewer system shows a simpler system with one tank and 02:01:47.031 --> 02:01:52.670 - one pump that flows straight from the apartments to a manhole on the south end of the property. 02:01:53.186 --> 02:01:59.228 - On June 25th, two ground floor apartments on the property were flooded by liquid sewage, which soaked 02:01:59.228 --> 02:02:05.743 - the carpets and filled the bathtubs, creating health hazard for the tenants. Two days later, the installation 02:02:05.743 --> 02:02:11.666 - of a new clean-out access allowed the liquid sewage to drain from the tenants' tubs. This was never 02:02:11.666 --> 02:02:17.767 - right, one of the owners was heard to remark. This person's name appears as a DGTL Inc. representative 02:02:17.767 --> 02:02:21.854 - on the rental property registration form on file in the Hand Office, 02:02:22.082 --> 02:02:30.270 - hand file number 6369. No rental occupancy permits are present in that file. I can only read as fast 02:02:30.270 --> 02:02:38.863 - as I can. I won't be long. On June 26, the disabled resident who initiated the complaint to Monroe County 02:02:38.863 --> 02:02:39.998 - Public Health 02:02:40.162 --> 02:02:46.653 - submitted a detailed letter to the city engineer requesting access to public records regarding the septic 02:02:46.653 --> 02:02:53.022 - sewer system and requesting that the premises be inspected as unsafe under Bloomington City Code 17.16. 02:02:53.022 --> 02:02:59.636 - Since this flood of sewage, the tenant has given the letter to Mayor John Fernandez requesting his office's 02:02:59.636 --> 02:03:06.127 - action. Whether or not the system was installed with proper permits and inspections, which public records 02:03:06.127 --> 02:03:10.046 - will show when they are found, the smell of this place tells me 02:03:10.306 --> 02:03:16.581 - that raw sewage has been leaking into the soil and groundwater since last October. The Boca Plumbing 02:03:16.581 --> 02:03:22.793 - Code, which enforcement authorities are obligated to uphold, states in Section P120.1, all plumbing 02:03:22.793 --> 02:03:29.006 - installations, regardless of type, which are unsanitary or which constitute a hazard to human life, 02:03:29.006 --> 02:03:35.218 - health, or welfare, are hereby declared illegal and shall be abated by repair and rehabilitation or 02:03:35.218 --> 02:03:40.126 - removal. This citizen asks the residents to help abate this public health risk 02:03:40.386 --> 02:03:48.854 - and environmental contamination by contacting public officials and insisting that they act immediately. 02:03:48.854 --> 02:03:56.995 - Thank you. This is for Craig, and it actually touches on a couple recent comments. Earlier you were 02:03:56.995 --> 02:04:05.219 - talking about how the most effective way to be in the environmental movement is to combine the above 02:04:05.219 --> 02:04:09.534 - ground legitimate forces with the guerrilla tactics. 02:04:09.698 --> 02:04:15.640 - And my question is, since the golf course, which was a very unified effort, there has been a schism, 02:04:15.640 --> 02:04:21.640 - I think, in the local environmental community among those who maybe agree with your tactics, some who 02:04:21.640 --> 02:04:27.699 - don't agree, and some who are, quite frankly, struggling and muddling through the middle of it. So how 02:04:27.699 --> 02:04:33.582 - do you concretely combine those forces to do that? And also, how do you form solidarity with people 02:04:33.582 --> 02:04:35.582 - that you cannot identify, meaning 02:04:36.034 --> 02:04:42.927 - for those environmentalists who are above ground and maybe do embrace your tactics, but if they can't 02:04:42.927 --> 02:04:50.023 - identify you, how do they form a solidarity? That's a good question. This is not just an issue affecting 02:04:50.023 --> 02:04:56.781 - the Bloomington area. This is affecting communities all around the country. There was a lot of what 02:04:56.781 --> 02:05:03.134 - I would consider fallout after the Vale resorts incorporated were burned in Colorado in 1998. 02:05:04.994 --> 02:05:10.541 - Instantly, you had groups that came out and publicly condemned the actions all the way from the national 02:05:10.541 --> 02:05:15.823 - level down to the grassroots level. And in addition to that, you had smaller groups and some larger 02:05:15.823 --> 02:05:20.894 - groups that also supported it and then a number of groups that just kind of were neutral on it. 02:05:21.922 --> 02:05:28.362 - Instantly, and again, what the big groups and the small groups did that came out against it, they condemned 02:05:28.362 --> 02:05:34.384 - it publicly. And again, as I stated before, that put a dividing line between the movement. And so in 02:05:34.384 --> 02:05:40.346 - a lot of communities and the environmental movement itself as one big community, we stand divided a 02:05:40.346 --> 02:05:46.488 - lot of time over the issue of tactics. What I think is the answer, because I acknowledge these tactics 02:05:46.488 --> 02:05:51.198 - of direct action, they're going to go on regardless of how we feel about them. 02:05:51.490 --> 02:05:57.423 - They're going to go on. Other people are going to commit them. Or maybe people in this room are going 02:05:57.423 --> 02:06:03.240 - to commit them. We never know. But since they're going to go on, all we can do as a community is to 02:06:03.240 --> 02:06:09.231 - realize that and to respond appropriately by realizing that if we don't come out and condemn, not that 02:06:09.231 --> 02:06:15.223 - we have to condone the actions, but if we don't come out and publicly condemn, but merely state, I can 02:06:15.223 --> 02:06:21.214 - understand why people would go to those lengths because the environmental movement is an environmental 02:06:21.346 --> 02:06:26.706 - exploitation and destruction is at the state it is right now. People are going to those lengths to try 02:06:26.706 --> 02:06:31.910 - and stop it. What that did was to say, well, my group never said it supported or didn't support it. 02:06:31.910 --> 02:06:37.218 - What we said was people are upset and they did that action. That's what needs to happen from a public 02:06:37.218 --> 02:06:42.629 - spokesperson stance, from PR firms, inside organizations. That's what needs to come out in communities. 02:06:42.629 --> 02:06:47.989 - Just realizing that these incidents, these actions are going to go on and that we as a community can't 02:06:47.989 --> 02:06:48.926 - let these actions 02:06:49.122 --> 02:06:56.159 - divide our movement. This is one movement. It's going to be made up of a healthy variety of tactics. 02:06:56.159 --> 02:07:03.266 - And we have to realize that and build upon it. I'd just say any criminal activity like arson is going 02:07:03.266 --> 02:07:10.233 - to divide the community. You're talking about bringing together people who are of one mind in terms 02:07:10.233 --> 02:07:17.758 - of the environment. You're assuming there's a lot of people who are just neutral in the community would not 02:07:18.562 --> 02:07:24.733 - come to your side. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but there is a larger community 02:07:24.733 --> 02:07:31.583 - here in Bloomington, and that community does not want to live in fear. They don't want to have their 02:07:31.583 --> 02:07:38.840 - neighbors exposed to vandalism at night, people coming around, starting fires. That kind of tactic divides 02:07:38.840 --> 02:07:45.825 - communities, creates fear and suspicion. And when you have that and you condone it, you're just doomed 02:07:45.825 --> 02:07:46.910 - as a community. 02:07:51.010 --> 02:07:58.439 - Good evening. I have two brief questions for Professor Hart and Mr. Rosebraugh. The first is John Locke, 02:07:58.439 --> 02:08:05.655 - English political philosopher of the 18th century, on whom many American political writings and ideas 02:08:05.655 --> 02:08:12.942 - were founded, said that people were created with certain inalienable rights among them, life, liberty, 02:08:12.942 --> 02:08:18.814 - and the right to own property. And I'm wondering if you accept that and if you do, 02:08:18.914 --> 02:08:26.714 - how do you reconcile someone that's right then or supposed right to destroy my right to own property? 02:08:26.714 --> 02:08:34.591 - And my second question is, I can see a clear historical chain or context for nonviolence from Dr. King 02:08:34.591 --> 02:08:42.468 - all the way back to Thoreau, in many cases very clear quoting each other saying, I got this idea from, 02:08:42.468 --> 02:08:48.510 - save Dr. King from Mahatma Gandhi, Mahatma Gandhi from Leo Tolstoy, et cetera. 02:08:48.610 --> 02:08:58.544 - Can you, for me, please put into context a little bit of the modern, I'm not even quite sure what to 02:08:58.544 --> 02:09:08.675 - call you, because terrorist is, you know, probably offensive. But if you could do that for me, I would 02:09:08.675 --> 02:09:17.822 - really appreciate it. Thanks. First of all, the issue of life, liberty, and excuse me. Yeah. 02:09:18.050 --> 02:09:25.044 - the locking approach, the issue of property, to bear with him getting kind of tired. It's gone a long 02:09:25.044 --> 02:09:32.176 - time. I obviously feel that people in this day and age, you know, they have a right to property. I have 02:09:32.176 --> 02:09:39.102 - owned property. I have had severe economic damage done to my property. I know what it's like. I also 02:09:39.102 --> 02:09:46.028 - feel that we have a responsibility, if we're going to be property owners, to not be greedy about it, 02:09:46.028 --> 02:09:47.742 - not be selfish about it, 02:09:47.970 --> 02:09:54.950 - and to do whatever it's going to take to ensure that our property is used sustainably in the sense that 02:09:54.950 --> 02:10:01.796 - we're not destroying what everybody needs because just because we own a certain set of property, that 02:10:01.796 --> 02:10:08.507 - doesn't mean that that property is not used by everybody. Trees in someone's property are virtually 02:10:08.507 --> 02:10:16.158 - used by people all over the world. Waterways that may run through someone's property are used by people all over. 02:10:16.834 --> 02:10:22.858 - You know, so just because we own a piece of property does not mean that we have the right to do whatever 02:10:22.858 --> 02:10:28.882 - we want to with it. And naturally I applaud the people that are going to call those individuals on their 02:10:28.882 --> 02:10:34.619 - actions that are unjust and polluting and destroying the lives of others, you know, and by others I 02:10:34.619 --> 02:10:40.471 - naturally mean the natural environment, animals and humans that are involved in it. And as far as the 02:10:40.471 --> 02:10:46.782 - second point to the question, if I understand it right, you want a timeline or some sort of traceable way to, 02:10:47.202 --> 02:10:53.714 - to find the history of direct action. Is that what you're referring to? Direct action has been used 02:10:53.714 --> 02:11:00.552 - for a long time. It continues to be used on various levels. There's violent direct action and nonviolent 02:11:00.552 --> 02:11:07.259 - direct action. You still see more violent direct action in the form of uprising, such as the situation 02:11:07.259 --> 02:11:12.990 - in Chiapas. It's armed self-defense or armed struggle. You still, going back years ago, 02:11:13.314 --> 02:11:19.816 - We were taught a lot about Susan B. Anthony and the Suffragette Movement. What we weren't taught too 02:11:19.816 --> 02:11:26.447 - much about were individuals like Alice Paul in the early 1900s that used severe civil disobedience and 02:11:26.447 --> 02:11:33.272 - her colleagues that also used direct action to help gain further rights for women. Not only in the United 02:11:33.272 --> 02:11:39.774 - States, but abroad in England. That went on to the Civil Rights Movement. There were not only people 02:11:40.034 --> 02:11:45.869 - doing the famous lunch counter sit-ins and doing the famous sitting in the back of the bus or the front 02:11:45.869 --> 02:11:51.760 - of the bus or everywhere they wanted to sit on the bus. There were actually people doing economic damage 02:11:51.760 --> 02:11:57.763 - behind the scenes to different companies at the time, different individuals and entities that were engaged 02:11:57.763 --> 02:12:03.598 - in what I consider the more modern slave practice that's going on at that time and to some extent still 02:12:03.598 --> 02:12:07.806 - goes on to this date. You had in the anti-war movement in the Vietnam era, 02:12:08.258 --> 02:12:14.939 - a lot of stuff going on then. You had groups that came out of there such as the Weather Underground 02:12:14.939 --> 02:12:22.087 - that used more forms of direct action to try and bring down the capitalist state that, as I stated before, 02:12:22.087 --> 02:12:29.034 - I feel is the main disease causing all these symptoms. This is not something new. The ELF did not start 02:12:29.034 --> 02:12:33.310 - in the United States. It started abroad in England, and the ELF 02:12:33.602 --> 02:12:40.093 - Basically, tactics were formed from looking at its sister organization, the Animal Liberation Front, 02:12:40.093 --> 02:12:46.520 - which also started in England in the 1970s. The groups have been very successful. They've withstood 02:12:46.520 --> 02:12:53.332 - years of pressure from authorities, and they are succeeding. In England, they are far ahead of us within, 02:12:53.332 --> 02:13:00.080 - as far as I would argue, with a lot of these movements because of their use of direct action and because 02:13:00.080 --> 02:13:03.422 - they started before us in using that direct action. 02:13:06.274 --> 02:13:12.994 - say about rights, but it's late and it's been property assault. I'd say the ALF has been a failure. 02:13:12.994 --> 02:13:19.848 - All they did was go out and attack a few hamburger stands. They had one woman had a good gift shop in 02:13:19.848 --> 02:13:26.702 - Broad Ripple. The name of the gift shop was the Bear Gift Shop. She had her place totally terrorized. 02:13:26.702 --> 02:13:33.422 - She had death threats at night. She had physical damage done to her property. She finally folded up 02:13:33.422 --> 02:13:34.430 - and left town. 02:13:35.010 --> 02:13:44.592 - Hurray for the ALF. I just think that it's a lot of people who get involved in those organizations that 02:13:44.592 --> 02:13:54.266 - think they're doing heroic acts that create a lot of dysfunction in society. They create Ted Kaczynski's 02:13:54.266 --> 02:14:03.756 - bombers, basically one-man vigilantes. So I totally disagree with the ALF and the ELF earth liberation 02:14:03.756 --> 02:14:04.862 - philosophy. 02:14:08.194 --> 02:14:14.753 - First of all, I'd just like to thank you all for coming tonight to have this discussion with us Some 02:14:14.753 --> 02:14:21.312 - of you came further than others Craig. Thank you very much for coming I've enjoyed hearing your your 02:14:21.312 --> 02:14:28.002 - views There's a lot of things I want to talk about I mean why we've worked very hard in this community 02:14:28.002 --> 02:14:34.366 - for a number of things and for someone to tell us, you know to go through the normal channels and 02:14:34.786 --> 02:14:41.171 - of the process, you know, to petition your government and to all that. You know, we've seen and I'm 02:14:41.171 --> 02:14:47.939 - sure that our community is not unique in this way. I know it's not. We've seen constantly that the people 02:14:47.939 --> 02:14:54.388 - speak and then the government does the opposite or does what, you know, we don't want them to do. It 02:14:54.388 --> 02:15:00.774 - happens with the PCBs. They tried to make it happen with the golf course. We actually amazingly won 02:15:00.774 --> 02:15:04.030 - that one so far. We'll see what happens with that. 02:15:04.642 --> 02:15:11.324 - But with the I-69, they want to build a highway through our community. All the people continuously speak 02:15:11.324 --> 02:15:17.752 - about it. They say, we don't want this. We don't want it. We don't want it. And then the mayor comes 02:15:17.752 --> 02:15:24.243 - out and says, I'm in favor of it. So what are we supposed to do? I can definitely sympathize with the 02:15:24.243 --> 02:15:30.607 - people who are doing these actions, because I have felt very frustrated myself. I have been working 02:15:30.607 --> 02:15:33.598 - within the system for 10, no, eight years now. 02:15:34.242 --> 02:15:40.202 - And I've been active, political. I've been doing forest activism. I've done other things. And you try 02:15:40.202 --> 02:15:46.044 - your hardest. You organize with people. And you write letters. And you talk to your congresspeople. 02:15:46.044 --> 02:15:52.179 - And you do everything. And you just see that it just does not work. And so I got fed up with the system. 02:15:52.179 --> 02:15:58.255 - And I dropped out of college. And I moved to Oregon, where you're from, or where you're living anyways, 02:15:58.255 --> 02:16:03.806 - and got involved with the Warner Creek blockade. And we actually stopped logging this pristine 02:16:04.290 --> 02:16:11.062 - habitat area for the spotted owl for a year, and we were successful. And it was not because we continuously 02:16:11.062 --> 02:16:17.771 - told the government to do something about it, but they did not. And we just maintained a constant presence 02:16:17.771 --> 02:16:24.104 - there and forced them to reconsider what they were going to do. And so direct action does work. This 02:16:24.104 --> 02:16:30.625 - forum is set up so that we can discuss different forms of direct action. Maybe not everyone agrees with 02:16:30.625 --> 02:16:32.318 - what the ELF is doing, but 02:16:34.050 --> 02:16:39.488 - at least they are bringing it to the public. I mean, it's, this would not be happening if someone hadn't 02:16:39.488 --> 02:16:44.772 - burned the house down and screwed up the logging equipment. We wouldn't be having this discussion. We 02:16:44.772 --> 02:16:50.003 - need to have these discussions in public. We need to be, people need to get active, you know, and it 02:16:50.003 --> 02:16:55.338 - doesn't take, you don't have to do a million different things, but we need everyone to do a little bit 02:16:55.338 --> 02:16:59.326 - at least. And there's so many people in our society that sit back, watch TV, 02:16:59.778 --> 02:17:05.869 - watch the sports, and that's all they keep up with is what the batting average is of their favorite 02:17:05.869 --> 02:17:11.960 - player. We need to seriously take into effect what we're thinking about in our lives. Do we want to 02:17:11.960 --> 02:17:18.111 - build community? Do we want to have friends and people that we can feel safe in our community? Or do 02:17:18.111 --> 02:17:24.324 - we want to be afraid of what some radical people are doing because they're so fed up with the system? 02:17:24.324 --> 02:17:26.334 - And so thank you all for coming. 02:17:35.298 --> 02:17:41.930 - People who are in line now will be the last people to speak. Thank you. Yes, sir. I had a couple of 02:17:41.930 --> 02:17:48.562 - comments and a couple of questions, mostly for Craig. I am one of the 14 victims in the last couple 02:17:48.562 --> 02:17:55.326 - of years. That was my logging equipment. I'm Perry Cruz down here in Morgan Monroe State Forestry. So 02:17:55.326 --> 02:18:01.958 - a couple of things. It does be good to be able to see somebody, because I didn't see anybody. And I 02:18:01.958 --> 02:18:04.478 - just want to make a couple of points. 02:18:05.026 --> 02:18:10.789 - You might want to start some training classes. They cut the free online and let it all out into the 02:18:10.789 --> 02:18:16.841 - atmosphere, dumped quite a bit of fuel on the ground around the place. And I don't think you got a whole 02:18:16.841 --> 02:18:22.834 - lot to worry about with the FBI and the local police force, because we had fingerprints and shoe prints 02:18:22.834 --> 02:18:28.540 - and a lot of that good stuff, and they didn't want any of that. So maybe you are on the same team, 02:18:28.540 --> 02:18:31.998 - you know? Okay. And another thing you might want to rethink 02:18:32.706 --> 02:18:39.170 - I had inland marine policies on all of it. And the insurance companies come down, they belly-ache, paid 02:18:39.170 --> 02:18:45.511 - out $30,000, $40,000, fixed it all up. If you was around, you see me back out there a few days later, 02:18:45.511 --> 02:18:51.789 - going at it again. And there's about 700 trees. Now, I don't want to be facetious, but they probably 02:18:51.789 --> 02:18:58.191 - used a couple of those trees to make the paper we used here tonight. Okay? So that is one question for 02:18:58.191 --> 02:19:00.926 - you. What about, do you use wood and paper? 02:19:01.186 --> 02:19:07.402 - this organization, these people, you said you own a business, you have a house, that's one question. 02:19:07.402 --> 02:19:13.617 - Do you use wood and paper? Do I use wood and paper? Yes, sir. The wood I try and use on paper, I try 02:19:13.617 --> 02:19:19.771 - and use either recycled or made from sustainable resources such as hemp. Okay, so I've never seen a 02:19:19.771 --> 02:19:25.987 - purist that didn't use wood and paper. We log, my family logs. It does me good that everybody that's 02:19:25.987 --> 02:19:29.310 - protesting's holding a paper, okay? Come from a tree. 02:19:29.826 --> 02:19:37.204 - It's a God-given natural resource. It is. Look around us at the wood. Beautiful, huh? We all have our 02:19:37.204 --> 02:19:44.655 - own perspectives. Another question. Why did you come and get me? I would have thought maybe you'd went 02:19:44.655 --> 02:19:51.889 - over there and got the State Force headquarters or something. They sold it to me. They did it. They 02:19:51.889 --> 02:19:58.110 - took my money. And you come and got me. I'm the little guy. Well, number one, I think 02:20:00.418 --> 02:20:07.260 - And again, I take issue with the point that people point their finger at me and say, why did you do 02:20:07.260 --> 02:20:14.103 - this? I understand that. I understand. It's clear that I'm a spokesperson. All right. The first one 02:20:14.103 --> 02:20:21.014 - I've seen. And I understand your concerns, and I applaud you for being here tonight. But I also look 02:20:21.014 --> 02:20:28.062 - at your presence here tonight as a positive thing in the sense that you may not have been here tonight 02:20:28.062 --> 02:20:30.046 - if you hadn't been targeted. 02:20:30.786 --> 02:20:36.213 - and hopefully there's issues going on within your head, whether or not you're going to even think about 02:20:36.213 --> 02:20:41.588 - the motives behind the actions or not. This brought you here tonight into this community forum. You're 02:20:41.588 --> 02:20:46.859 - a member of this community, and you have things at stake in this community just like everybody else. 02:20:46.859 --> 02:20:52.130 - You're using things in this community that other people need to survive. And I think you, along with 02:20:52.130 --> 02:20:57.401 - everybody else, need to work together to try and figure out the best way possible to walk as lightly 02:20:57.401 --> 02:21:00.062 - on the earth and ensure that we have a sustainable 02:21:00.258 --> 02:21:07.589 - Earth for future generations. Okay. Maybe just one word about the fact that it is almost all this damage 02:21:07.589 --> 02:21:14.572 - is usually passed on. We all paid. My insurance went up. All your insurance went up. A lot of times 02:21:14.572 --> 02:21:21.624 - it is passed on to the consumer. Any comment on that? Then I will get down here. Any comment on your 02:21:21.624 --> 02:21:28.955 - insurance costs? No. The fact that it is passed right on to all of us. We all pay it. I suffered $50,000 02:21:28.955 --> 02:21:30.142 - worth of damage. 02:21:30.434 --> 02:21:37.461 - It's all passed right on down to the consumer. Did your insurance rates go up at all after you suffered 02:21:37.461 --> 02:21:44.219 - a $50,000 loss? Yes, they did. That's all my point. Thank you. I just mentioned the fact that he is 02:21:44.219 --> 02:21:51.449 - one victim, and again he mentioned we're all victims because we have to pay the prices of higher security. 02:21:51.449 --> 02:21:58.408 - He's got to pay the prices of higher security. He's got to be a little more careful now where he parts 02:21:58.408 --> 02:21:59.422 - his equipment. 02:21:59.842 --> 02:22:07.347 - Again, it's not a victimless crime. It is a crime that needs to be prosecuted. And if you've got a complaint 02:22:07.347 --> 02:22:14.301 - with law enforcement for not being there to take the footprints and the fingerprints, they're in the 02:22:14.301 --> 02:22:21.392 - phone book. You call your chief of police. You call your FBI. And you make a complaint. Or do you find 02:22:21.392 --> 02:22:28.277 - the Earth Liberation in their phone book and call them? If you want them to respond, have them turn 02:22:28.277 --> 02:22:29.310 - themselves in. 02:22:29.506 --> 02:22:40.119 - Go to grand jury and let's get it hashed out to find out whether or not they are responsible enough 02:22:40.119 --> 02:22:50.839 - to own up to these acts. I just have three questions and a brief comment. It seems ironic to me that 02:22:50.839 --> 02:22:57.950 - some of the strongest supporters for treading on the earth lightly 02:22:58.434 --> 02:23:09.557 - are the Apollo astronauts that went and circled the moon and landed on the moon, that looked from the 02:23:09.557 --> 02:23:20.462 - moon back at the earth and saw how small and blue and precious that it was sitting in space. That's 02:23:20.462 --> 02:23:27.550 - my comment. And the question, I have a question for each of you. 02:23:28.194 --> 02:23:38.859 - Mr. Pitchford, my question to you is you have been telling us all evening that we should contact our 02:23:38.859 --> 02:23:49.419 - congressman, our mayor, the authorities to basically, if we have a complaint or something, in order 02:23:49.419 --> 02:23:57.022 - to get that taken care of, that, well, I'll just put it in these terms. 02:23:57.634 --> 02:24:07.618 - if we're going to get the laws changed, say, through the Congress, do you have any idea how long that 02:24:07.618 --> 02:24:17.993 - process takes? And my question to you, Mr. Hart, philosophically speaking, do you think that the American 02:24:17.993 --> 02:24:27.390 - Revolution was a good idea? And my question to you, Mr. Rosenbrah, was do you see in the future 02:24:28.834 --> 02:24:41.413 - a world political party along the lines of the Green Party, perhaps on a more radical, in more radical 02:24:41.413 --> 02:24:54.114 - terms, since the Green Party seems to be losing steam in a lot of countries, or perhaps a reinvigorated 02:24:54.114 --> 02:24:57.534 - Green Party worldwide since 02:24:58.498 --> 02:25:07.030 - Capitalism seems to be spreading its fingers throughout the world. Do you see that happening? Thank 02:25:07.030 --> 02:25:15.733 - you very much. You asked how long it might take to have hypothetical legislation change. My answer is 02:25:15.733 --> 02:25:24.436 - somewhat of a question. Do you know the representative that you have in this district that sits up in 02:25:24.436 --> 02:25:25.630 - Indianapolis? 02:25:25.730 --> 02:25:34.521 - Do you know his phone number? Have you ever called him? It may only take five minutes to give him a 02:25:34.521 --> 02:25:43.753 - call and for him to bring it up on the floor of the house. Have you ever called him? Well, in that case, 02:25:43.753 --> 02:25:52.720 - maybe whatever change or suggestion you had is not something that he agrees with. I mean, could it be 02:25:52.720 --> 02:25:54.654 - that maybe, you know, 02:25:54.946 --> 02:26:00.026 - just because you think something should be changed, it shouldn't. I mean, there is government by the 02:26:00.026 --> 02:26:05.357 - people. And, you know, what we see here is a certain percentage of people, but this isn't all the people. 02:26:05.357 --> 02:26:10.487 - And when someone says the mayor doesn't agree with some particular thing, the mayor has to be elected 02:26:10.487 --> 02:26:15.617 - by a lot of people. If one or two people don't particularly like what the mayor's doing, that doesn't 02:26:15.617 --> 02:26:21.150 - mean, you know, that that's the right way to go. For crying out loud, the rest of the people have a say, too. 02:26:26.914 --> 02:26:33.387 - It's getting late. The American Revolution, in one sense, hasn't happened yet. And it happened in a 02:26:33.387 --> 02:26:39.278 - very limited way. The perspective of the Indians, women, indentured servants, so forth and 02:26:39.278 --> 02:26:45.751 - so on, ecologically. That wasn't given in the American Revolution. That wasn't revolution for them. 02:26:45.751 --> 02:26:49.246 - We all know that. Maybe we can talk about that later. 02:26:53.058 --> 02:27:00.584 - The question of do I see a Green Party being successful in the coming future at all, is that correct? 02:27:00.584 --> 02:27:08.109 - Not without a major change in our government and at least at minimum a change to actually making this 02:27:08.109 --> 02:27:15.561 - country into an actual democracy where you have a government by the people and for the people, which 02:27:15.561 --> 02:27:17.406 - is not what we have now. 02:27:24.066 --> 02:27:31.122 - I'd just like to make a couple of points. One of them is that as far as changing the law, the Indiana 02:27:31.122 --> 02:27:38.385 - legislature's response to 234,000 fish being killed in the White River this year was to pass a law which 02:27:38.385 --> 02:27:45.303 - allowed the Clean Water Act to be, a community to be exempt from the Clean Water Act if it rained a 02:27:45.303 --> 02:27:51.390 - tenth of an inch to be able to dump raw sewage out through combination sewer overflows. 02:27:51.682 --> 02:27:58.178 - You know, it's no wonder your comments, Mr. Pitchford, ring hollow here because the Indiana legislature 02:27:58.178 --> 02:28:04.798 - at least and the problems I described in Indiana when I first spoke are so total and they're so pervasive 02:28:04.798 --> 02:28:11.106 - throughout the whole political institution. Secondly, on a little lighter note, I grew up in Bedford 02:28:11.106 --> 02:28:17.352 - and went to school in Bloomington and of course my aunt disowned me because I became such a radical 02:28:17.352 --> 02:28:20.350 - at that point. Bloomington does that to people. 02:28:21.314 --> 02:28:28.128 - I wish you were all in Evansville because, you know, this is an amazing thing that happened here tonight 02:28:28.128 --> 02:28:34.813 - in my eyes. Nothing like this could ever happen in the community of Evansville because you're supposed 02:28:34.813 --> 02:28:41.497 - to have a monolithic opinion in Evansville. And if you go outside that monolith, you get ridiculed and 02:28:41.497 --> 02:28:47.987 - bastardized at the media and privately and your economic destruction, personal economic destruction 02:28:47.987 --> 02:28:51.102 - comes with that. And last, I'd like to say that 02:28:51.874 --> 02:29:02.325 - You know, there's, yes, a lot of people have said that the ELF is not courageous action because it is 02:29:02.325 --> 02:29:12.673 - anonymous. Well, Mr. Rosebra, you have inspired me with your courage to come and be open and address 02:29:12.673 --> 02:29:18.718 - these issues. I am twice your age. I understand you're 27. 02:29:19.650 --> 02:29:30.279 - I'm 53 and I have such total admiration for your courage and willingness to stand up for what you believe 02:29:30.279 --> 02:29:40.507 - in and to become the conduit for a philosophy that is surely not going to be wildly popular. You have 02:29:40.507 --> 02:29:44.318 - not only my admiration but my thanks. 02:29:51.810 --> 02:30:06.057 - Mr. Pitchford, I wonder whether you or the people from your viewpoint believe that there is or could 02:30:06.057 --> 02:30:21.150 - be such a thing as an Earth ethic. That would be something different from an ethic or some kind of view of 02:30:21.250 --> 02:30:34.311 - a thing like private property. I became an environmentalist, really, when I read a Sand County Almanac 02:30:34.311 --> 02:30:47.246 - by Aldo Leopold. And his point was that we have not come to an Earth ethic. And I don't believe we're 02:30:47.246 --> 02:30:48.894 - still there. 02:30:50.018 --> 02:31:00.171 - One reason I don't believe it is that even after people like, what's the woman who wrote about the ocean, 02:31:00.171 --> 02:31:09.749 - or Silent Spring, Rachel. Rachel Carson was pilloried and attacked by corporations. And it seems to 02:31:09.749 --> 02:31:19.710 - me that legislatively, everything that environmentalists have tried to do in this country has gradually 02:31:20.034 --> 02:31:30.571 - or sometimes subtly and sometimes sneakily, been countermanded and cut off by the people in our Senate. 02:31:30.571 --> 02:31:40.399 - And one more thing about talking to your own congressperson. If you knew my congressman person's 02:31:40.399 --> 02:31:47.998 - environmental record, you wouldn't say that to me. His name is Dan Burton. 02:31:50.978 --> 02:32:01.039 - Pardon? He's not mine. I don't know about him. Mine's bad enough. I want to ask one more question. 02:32:01.039 --> 02:32:11.506 - I'm sorry. I want to ask about private property. Is it an ultimate legal reality, or is there a higher 02:32:11.506 --> 02:32:19.230 - law? In other words, is there not just human law, but is there natural law? 02:32:20.194 --> 02:32:27.599 - And my third question is, I'm not going to say why the American people don't vote, because they'll just 02:32:27.599 --> 02:32:35.004 - say we're all lazy slobs. But why don't they give us discussion, even in this political situation right 02:32:35.004 --> 02:32:42.125 - now, of questions about what everybody is talking about, sustainability on this earth. I don't hear 02:32:42.125 --> 02:32:49.886 - it being brought up, and I think it's all our fault. Thanks for listening, unless you want to say something. 02:32:55.842 --> 02:33:05.943 - I personally believe that there's a higher law, that's moral law, then there's natural law, then there's 02:33:05.943 --> 02:33:15.755 - man-made law, and there is a duty of certain people who are tasked to uphold the law to enforce laws. 02:33:15.755 --> 02:33:24.798 - To say that they are doing it without concern for ethics is not correct. Oftentimes there are 02:33:25.282 --> 02:33:35.980 - cases where criminals are apprehended, they're given their rights, they're given all the benefits, they're 02:33:35.980 --> 02:33:46.578 - taken before a grand jury, a jury, and they're given the benefit of defense. So just because these people 02:33:46.578 --> 02:33:48.478 - are not, you know, 02:33:48.994 --> 02:33:56.277 - let go and let free and let go on to commit arsons does not mean that there's a certain unethical aspect 02:33:56.277 --> 02:34:03.699 - in law enforcement. I'm not sure if that's answering your question. You're assuming that there's a certain 02:34:03.699 --> 02:34:10.774 - unethical aspect in law enforcement? Is that what you're trying to ask me? Sometimes private property 02:34:10.774 --> 02:34:16.670 - rights, like say my personal freedom, doesn't mean I can do whatever I want with it. 02:34:17.346 --> 02:34:24.289 - Any more than my freedom means I can do whatever I darn well. Please, that is not, there are responsibilities 02:34:24.289 --> 02:34:30.790 - that go with these things. And if people take, well, I think there's such a thing as the commonwealth, 02:34:30.790 --> 02:34:37.417 - the commonweal, which supersedes the private property of your being. Well, there are checks and balances 02:34:37.417 --> 02:34:44.044 - within law enforcement, within the jurists, you know, the legislature, that you've got judges. So you've 02:34:44.044 --> 02:34:47.326 - got checks and balances to make sure that there are 02:34:47.778 --> 02:34:56.566 - ethical and proper methods of enforcing the law and adjudicating the law and rewriting the law in some 02:34:56.566 --> 02:35:05.780 - cases. And yes, I fully agree that there has to be that process. I would just like to say I agree basically 02:35:05.780 --> 02:35:10.814 - with the drift of your remarks. I think that the law books 02:35:10.978 --> 02:35:18.314 - have been written with a little awareness. I was just reading a more medieval manual where the issue 02:35:18.314 --> 02:35:25.578 - of the environment was for the most part hidden to the author. I also would like to say that in the 02:35:25.578 --> 02:35:33.278 - issue that the law books also in terms of economics does not take account of what's called externalities. 02:35:33.474 --> 02:35:41.064 - that there's nothing there about the real costs, the environmental costs. It's all based on the manifest 02:35:41.064 --> 02:35:48.510 - profit and loss. And environmental issues are not really in the law books in terms of profit and loss. 02:35:48.642 --> 02:35:56.046 - And economics has always been an enormous abstraction. But now with the intensified environmental 02:35:56.046 --> 02:36:04.282 - consciousness, it looks utterly stupid when you start thinking of what the real costs are to the environment 02:36:04.282 --> 02:36:11.913 - in terms of what counts as legal profit, a legitimate pursuit of economic rights, and so forth. It's 02:36:11.913 --> 02:36:13.726 - a horrible abstraction. 02:36:13.826 --> 02:36:23.736 - Many economists have been working on trying to get into the economic mindset, as well as into the legislative 02:36:23.736 --> 02:36:32.925 - bodies, these other considerations. But it's been an extraordinary uphill battle. Well, good. I guess 02:36:32.925 --> 02:36:42.024 - someone has to be last. And I hate to be the skunk at the garden party, but I have not been inspired 02:36:42.024 --> 02:36:43.646 - by Mr. Rose-Braw. 02:36:44.162 --> 02:36:50.250 - And I've lived in San Francisco and Berkeley, so I have some understanding of political dissent, but 02:36:50.250 --> 02:36:56.701 - I'm a little surprised at how everyone is against representative government. That's sort of the government 02:36:56.701 --> 02:37:03.091 - we live under. And actually what you seem to be applauding is anarchy, because that's what this gentleman 02:37:03.091 --> 02:37:08.094 - represents. If you don't like having elected officials who make decisions for you, 02:37:08.482 --> 02:37:15.704 - which I can understand. I certainly vote against people. And by the way, I vote every time. If everyone 02:37:15.704 --> 02:37:22.857 - here voted every time, you could elect people. It's true. This room probably exceeded the ballot count 02:37:22.857 --> 02:37:30.010 - at the last primary. But if you don't like representative government making decisions for you, I don't 02:37:30.010 --> 02:37:32.510 - know how you can like an anarchist. 02:37:33.218 --> 02:37:40.475 - How can you possibly like a guy in a black shirt with matches in the dark burning down a house? Do you 02:37:40.475 --> 02:37:47.731 - like that as a planning decision? That's stupid. That's not planning. That's anarchy. And the constant 02:37:47.731 --> 02:37:54.988 - reference to civil disobedience and Mahatma Gandhi and the revolution totally forgets who these people 02:37:54.988 --> 02:38:02.174 - were about. They stood up in front of their people and accepted punishment if it had to be doled out. 02:38:02.466 --> 02:38:11.937 - You people hide in the dark. I don't think that's very proud or brave. Okay, I certainly don't think 02:38:11.937 --> 02:38:21.690 - so. And even once, Mr. Rosebrough, you said that you were like the liberators of the Nazi prison camps. 02:38:21.690 --> 02:38:32.286 - You said that. That says that my government is similar to Nazi Germany. I don't like that. I'm offended by that. 02:38:33.666 --> 02:38:40.265 - And to carry your logic to the absurdity, what if one of your colleagues somewhere out there in the 02:38:40.265 --> 02:38:46.997 - dark is offended by this very building? He's mad because whatever many years ago was built, he didn't 02:38:46.997 --> 02:38:53.926 - want it developed. And tomorrow night, he burns this whole place down. That's the logic of your anarchy, 02:38:53.926 --> 02:38:57.886 - one guy out there making a decision. I think that's absurd. 02:39:06.466 --> 02:39:15.654 - Just a word on anarchism and anarchy. I think the word is, again, a term of opprobrium. I think democracy 02:39:15.654 --> 02:39:24.841 - is inseparable from communitarian anarchism. I don't think you can have democracy unless it's a bottom-up 02:39:24.841 --> 02:39:34.462 - movement. I think there are times when representation are necessary, but we must remember that if they are the 02:39:34.658 --> 02:39:42.170 - modus vivendi of a government, we are basically forfeiting our own agency and our own hearts and minds 02:39:42.170 --> 02:39:50.046 - and wills. When we establish a government that gives carte blanche to people to think and act on our behalf 02:39:50.242 --> 02:39:57.127 - We have already given up democracy. Representative democracy is always a deficient form of democracy. 02:39:57.127 --> 02:40:04.350 - It's an ad hoc solution to certain problems. That's why democracy requires smallness. That's why democracy 02:40:04.350 --> 02:40:11.100 - requires what Gandhi called village anarchism. And that's the direction, I think the only direction 02:40:11.100 --> 02:40:16.702 - we can move in if in fact we are going to be able to get outside the mega machine. 02:40:16.834 --> 02:40:22.672 - We are not getting outside the mega machine when we leave these doors, these hallowed doors, and go 02:40:22.672 --> 02:40:28.860 - on with our lifestyle as usual. We support the corporations in every aspect of our lives. In every aspect 02:40:28.860 --> 02:40:34.757 - of our lives. That's why the corporations are so, so strong. We make them strong. And if we're going 02:40:34.757 --> 02:40:40.770 - to get outside of it, we have to get together. We have to not trust in God as the dollar says. We have 02:40:40.770 --> 02:40:43.806 - to trust as the blooming dollar says in each other. 02:40:57.858 --> 02:41:04.917 - to make any final comments before we leave this evening. My only last comment that's directed towards 02:41:04.917 --> 02:41:12.045 - the last individual was, the more we rely on popular media, mass media, to inform our own opinions for 02:41:12.045 --> 02:41:19.588 - us, the less we are of a people. How does the opinion come to this individual that the people out conducting 02:41:19.588 --> 02:41:22.910 - these actions are wearing black and anarchists? 02:41:23.554 --> 02:41:29.134 - How does the individual come to the conclusion that myself sitting up here is an anarchist? Did I say 02:41:29.134 --> 02:41:34.878 - that? Did I leave any sort of notion towards that? I don't think so. These are media stereotypes created 02:41:34.878 --> 02:41:40.512 - by mass media and art society to place a negative stigma upon these actions and this organization, and 02:41:40.512 --> 02:41:44.670 - I detest that. We are individuals, we have our own minds, and we can think. 02:41:53.602 --> 02:42:00.241 - I just want to thank everybody for coming. I admire the longevity, endurance of your ends. I think that, 02:42:00.241 --> 02:42:06.627 - but that's a necessary condition. I think of democracy that we have to wear our bottoms thin because 02:42:06.627 --> 02:42:13.203 - there's no way of being democratic unless talking together. I'm sorry that it had to be set up in terms 02:42:13.203 --> 02:42:20.095 - of a panel. I think that, but next time perhaps, and I hope there is a next time, we have a more distributed 02:42:20.095 --> 02:42:22.814 - and a less centralized kind of discussion. 02:42:28.514 --> 02:42:37.110 - If anybody has any information regarding who would be responsible for the crimes that were committed, 02:42:37.110 --> 02:42:45.790 - either arsons or destruction to bulldozers and the like, please call your local police and the FBI and 02:42:45.790 --> 02:42:54.470 - show that you are a concerned citizen. I want to check and see if Lisa Spector has anything she'd like 02:42:54.470 --> 02:42:56.830 - to say here as we conclude. 02:43:01.698 --> 02:43:07.786 - And I wanted to thank everybody for coming out and engaging in a respectful dialogue. This needs to 02:43:07.786 --> 02:43:10.526 - continue. I'm pleased that neither the mayor 02:43:10.722 --> 02:43:16.738 - tree spikes nor fire has separated our community so much that we can't still talk. And it's up to us 02:43:16.738 --> 02:43:22.695 - to stay unified as a community. Nothing can separate us but ourselves. So we need to stay together. 02:43:22.695 --> 02:43:28.830 - We need to keep working to protect our home in whatever ways we're comfortable with. Thank you so much 02:43:28.830 --> 02:43:34.846 - for your bravery and speaking up and coming here to help our community come together. Thanks, Craig.