WEBVTT 00:00:00.162 --> 00:00:07.743 - This is my mic now, but very soon it will be your mic. I'm Ralph Shaw. I'm the spokesperson for the 00:00:07.743 --> 00:00:15.779 - League of Women Voters of Bloomington, Monroe County. We're very happy to be here hosting this discussion 00:00:15.779 --> 00:00:23.664 - forum about the reorganization of Ellisville and Richland Township, which is going to be on the ballot. 00:00:23.664 --> 00:00:26.014 - There's an election coming up. 00:00:26.306 --> 00:00:32.451 - We put together a panel of people who have different backgrounds and perspectives. I'll just briefly 00:00:32.451 --> 00:00:38.596 - say what they are. We'll then turn to one of our people to give kind of a little bit of general view 00:00:38.596 --> 00:00:45.045 - from the state perspective of what's going on and what we might expect. And then we really want to answer 00:00:45.045 --> 00:00:51.251 - questions from you. We've received some interesting questions that were submitted by email. And so we 00:00:51.251 --> 00:00:54.110 - may have some of those discussed a little bit. 00:00:54.434 --> 00:01:01.085 - but also if there are things that are of great importance to you, please feel free to come up and pose 00:01:01.085 --> 00:01:07.995 - a question to any or all of the members of the panel. Our panelists are Jim Perry, who's a retired faculty 00:01:07.995 --> 00:01:14.452 - member from SPIA, interested in aspects of local government as well. SPIA is what? Oh, my goodness. 00:01:14.452 --> 00:01:20.974 - School of Public and Environmental Affairs. The Paul H. O'Neill School. The O'Neill School of Public 00:01:20.974 --> 00:01:22.718 - and Environmental Affairs. 00:01:23.170 --> 00:01:31.111 - And I know how to spell O'Neill also. Justin Ross, who is from the same school. Colby Wicker, who is 00:01:31.111 --> 00:01:38.973 - a law student at the Maurer School of Law and also an Ellisville resident, as is Jim, actually. And 00:01:38.973 --> 00:01:46.206 - William Ellis, who has been very active on the reorganization committee for the work that's 00:01:46.626 --> 00:01:55.003 - come forward as the proposal of the referendum that will be on the ballot in November. So we're delighted 00:01:55.003 --> 00:02:03.381 - to have people here. We're going to ask Justin to talk a little bit about what's going on, what motivated 00:02:03.381 --> 00:02:11.284 - all this, where we stand in terms of what the state, we'll say, is trying to do possibly to us. And 00:02:11.284 --> 00:02:15.710 - then we'll go on to questions. Thank you for having me. 00:02:16.258 --> 00:02:23.415 - I think it's great to see so many people here interested in coming and talking about this. In another 00:02:23.415 --> 00:02:30.642 - state where maybe such decisions were more straightforward from a policy perspective, this would still 00:02:30.642 --> 00:02:37.869 - be a pretty complicated thing to think through. It's particularly challenging in Indiana. Indiana has, 00:02:37.869 --> 00:02:45.236 - I think, a good candidate to be one of the more complicated states on how the property tax system works. 00:02:45.236 --> 00:02:46.078 - And this... 00:02:46.370 --> 00:02:55.212 - is a system that's still somewhat relatively new from a kind of a practical perspective. So there's 00:02:55.212 --> 00:03:04.938 - the property tax caps that were passed in 2007 to 2008 that I think is what made us, in part, so complicated. 00:03:04.938 --> 00:03:13.780 - And a very closely related idea to what is being done here in Eltsville and Richmond is annexation. 00:03:13.780 --> 00:03:15.902 - And I can remember a... 00:03:16.706 --> 00:03:24.515 - when the property tax caps were first passed, one of the first instances in which I can remember is 00:03:24.515 --> 00:03:32.324 - realizing how weird the new property tax system was with an annexation because a town annexed a set 00:03:32.324 --> 00:03:40.290 - of neighborhoods and their property tax revenues went down, which simply was not even on the radar as 00:03:40.290 --> 00:03:42.398 - a thing that might happen. 00:03:42.562 --> 00:03:49.886 - And it was kind of like that moment was, oh, man, these are really different and weird and odd. And 00:03:49.886 --> 00:03:57.502 - the state has been kind of, in some sense, dealing with the kind of fallout from this a little bit ever 00:03:57.502 --> 00:04:04.899 - since. Most recently with the 2025 property tax reform last year. That came at the end of a two-year 00:04:04.899 --> 00:04:11.710 - work task force. So it was a task force that I was on as the university-appointed economist, 00:04:11.810 --> 00:04:17.974 - position that they had on there to try and help them think about incentives of different choices and 00:04:17.974 --> 00:04:24.504 - stuff. And it started out very, very broad, like, what in Indiana's tax system should change, if anything? 00:04:24.504 --> 00:04:31.095 - And it started out very broad, talking about income taxes, corporate income taxes, the gamut of everything. 00:04:31.095 --> 00:04:37.320 - But by the end of that two years, the only thing anybody was talking about was property taxes, still, 00:04:37.320 --> 00:04:41.470 - you know? Even after all these earlier efforts to try and roll back 00:04:41.890 --> 00:04:49.788 - property tax burdens. So we had this plan, we had all this stuff implemented, and then Governor Braun, 00:04:49.788 --> 00:04:57.916 - who was newly elected at that time, came in right after that, and he had campaign promises that he wanted 00:04:57.916 --> 00:05:05.584 - to deliver on. And they were not entirely compatible with how the property tax system really worked 00:05:05.584 --> 00:05:08.574 - in terms of what you could deliver on. 00:05:08.674 --> 00:05:15.087 - And kind of the reforms that then kind of came out of the end of this, I think, further exacerbate just 00:05:15.087 --> 00:05:21.438 - a lot of the uncertainty. And it's something that's gonna be phased in over five years as the way it's 00:05:21.438 --> 00:05:27.913 - currently written up, with additional changes to the local income tax, which they have already, I think, 00:05:27.913 --> 00:05:34.388 - now twice, kicked down for a year of delay before implementation. So that's a lot of stuff that is going 00:05:34.388 --> 00:05:35.806 - on just to make things 00:05:36.322 --> 00:05:43.257 - already more complicated than it. So even in a normal event, it would be challenging enough. But you 00:05:43.257 --> 00:05:50.330 - do have this additional layer of just uncertainty about where things are going. This ties in, I think, 00:05:50.330 --> 00:05:57.403 - very directly with the state's long-standing interest and perhaps skepticism with township government. 00:05:57.403 --> 00:06:04.682 - For as long as I've been here, there has been, which is since 2008 is when I moved here. But just briefly 00:06:04.682 --> 00:06:05.918 - before I arrived, 00:06:06.210 --> 00:06:12.794 - there was what was known as the Kern Shepherd Report, which proposed the elimination of townships. And 00:06:12.794 --> 00:06:19.378 - there has certainly, part of the property tax cap system was understood to be in that light. Let's try 00:06:19.378 --> 00:06:26.346 - and find ways to remove levels of services that were the responsibility of the township, push them someplace 00:06:26.346 --> 00:06:32.802 - else, whether it be the county or otherwise, as part of an overall approach to try and also cut back 00:06:32.802 --> 00:06:35.934 - on property tax burdens. And so the more recent, 00:06:36.354 --> 00:06:43.842 - bills that you're seeing in this, I think could be understood in this way. So earlier in this year, 00:06:43.842 --> 00:06:51.630 - the legislature passed a performance grading system for township governments that if the townships fail 00:06:51.630 --> 00:06:59.193 - to meet certain performance criteria, they could be forced into a consolidation with another unit or 00:06:59.193 --> 00:07:04.510 - something else can be done to remove them. And so, I think that's just 00:07:04.994 --> 00:07:13.814 - part and parcel of the interest in finding ways to get local governments to be less property tax-dependent, 00:07:13.814 --> 00:07:21.409 - as well as just trying to scale back on potentially a level of government that they've never 00:07:21.409 --> 00:07:23.614 - been particularly fond of. 00:07:35.554 --> 00:07:41.946 - I should have mentioned that we are under time limits. The library has to close by 7 o'clock. We're 00:07:41.946 --> 00:07:48.466 - supposed to be out of here well before then. So if there are questions that you have that you want to 00:07:48.466 --> 00:07:54.922 - bring to our attention, please step forward and bring them up now. I would like to know, there are a 00:07:54.922 --> 00:08:01.506 - couple of questions that we received by email. Colby, maybe you want to go through some of that? Sure. 00:08:01.506 --> 00:08:04.638 - And then William also has some perspectives too. 00:08:05.570 --> 00:08:12.244 - Sure, so to pick up where Justin ended, Senate Bill 270 is this grading mechanism that he's talking 00:08:12.244 --> 00:08:19.119 - about. And it sets out, I'd be happy to sort of talk through that process a little bit. So the state's 00:08:19.119 --> 00:08:26.126 - longstanding concerns were that there were lots of township governments that weren't doing what township 00:08:26.126 --> 00:08:28.062 - governments are there to do. 00:08:28.290 --> 00:08:34.594 - One of the many responsibilities that townships have, most important, I would say, is township assistance. 00:08:34.594 --> 00:08:40.486 - So someone can't afford their rent, their utilities. If someone passes away and they don't have the 00:08:40.486 --> 00:08:46.555 - money to either be buried or be cremated, you can go to your township trustee's office and you can get 00:08:46.555 --> 00:08:47.262 - assistance. 00:08:47.650 --> 00:08:53.491 - I was just talking with Mr. Perry here before we started there almost 1000 townships in Indiana. There 00:08:53.491 --> 00:08:59.559 - are 11 here here in Monroe County. And so that means if you're doing the math, there are lots of townships 00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:05.854 - that have less than even 1000 people. And so that means a lot of these townships aren't really doing anything. 00:09:06.274 --> 00:09:11.885 - And so the state, this is sort of a compromise measure to say that we're going to take the townships 00:09:11.885 --> 00:09:17.664 - that are smaller, that maybe the residents there aren't getting the services that they need, merge them 00:09:17.664 --> 00:09:23.553 - with a bigger township so they can have sort of professionalized service, an office they can go to that's 00:09:23.553 --> 00:09:26.942 - open all day long where they can get some of these services. 00:09:27.554 --> 00:09:34.988 - And as a part of that, if they're graded out, one of the ways of solving that was not merging with another 00:09:34.988 --> 00:09:42.284 - township, but was also merging with a municipality. And so some townships will be forced into that going 00:09:42.284 --> 00:09:49.232 - off of this. My understanding is that Richland Township is not one of those. Richland is one of the 00:09:49.232 --> 00:09:55.902 - larger townships. It has, what, 15,000 people in it, so it's pretty big for township standards. 00:09:56.002 --> 00:10:03.525 - That wasn't going to be something that this township was forced into. My understanding with this organization 00:10:03.525 --> 00:10:10.570 - was that it was to come together just to have one united place of government for people to come to for 00:10:10.570 --> 00:10:17.409 - all of these things. I come from a township government background. I work in Van Buren Township, so 00:10:17.409 --> 00:10:20.350 - the township just to the south of us here. 00:10:20.514 --> 00:10:26.992 - Right, which is right by the airport. I've been there for about seven years And we have constant contact 00:10:26.992 --> 00:10:33.286 - with Richland and it seems like pretty much how things operate is how it's going to continue there So 00:10:33.286 --> 00:10:39.579 - I just wanted to address there was a question about Senate bill 270 and how that affected some of the 00:10:39.579 --> 00:10:45.502 - Different considerations here in my understanding with it is it has no bearing on it whatsoever 00:10:46.242 --> 00:10:54.103 - The other question that I wanted to answer was about Some of the annex property. So as many of you may 00:10:54.103 --> 00:11:01.887 - know Richland Township Has some properties that are currently within the city of Bloomington and that 00:11:01.887 --> 00:11:09.214 - has raised some questions and It's easy to be misunderstood if this proposal were to go forward 00:11:09.314 --> 00:11:15.744 - Those properties would not become Ellisville. They would stay within the city of Bloomington. And so 00:11:15.744 --> 00:11:22.239 - there's some talk on they would still be in that realm of where Richland Township was before. So they 00:11:22.239 --> 00:11:28.478 - would still have access to the township assistance services that the new town of Ellisville would 00:11:28.706 --> 00:11:34.628 - Provide and so I there's been some talk and I'm sure mr. Ellis can talk about this somewhat too About 00:11:34.628 --> 00:11:40.724 - how that will be funded where that money comes from My understanding is the township assistance is going 00:11:40.724 --> 00:11:46.530 - to be funded out of lit local income tax for the for the first year and so my understanding is that 00:11:46.530 --> 00:11:52.452 - there in the in the city city of Bloomington those those properties it will continue they'll continue 00:11:52.452 --> 00:11:56.574 - to receive those those services and Very happy to answer any questions 00:12:01.410 --> 00:12:07.104 - Oh, and I did just want to stay for the record. I am not currently a resident of Ellisville. 00:12:07.104 --> 00:12:13.289 - I grew up here. I went to high school here at Edgewood, moved here in 2014, and I moved away, living 00:12:13.289 --> 00:12:19.657 - in an apartment in Van Buren Township now. But I just wanted to say, just for transparency's sake, that 00:12:19.657 --> 00:12:26.025 - I won't personally be voting in this upcoming decision. But my heart and my home is here in Ellisville, 00:12:26.025 --> 00:12:27.678 - here in Richland Township. 00:12:28.802 --> 00:12:36.209 - Okay. So here's a question came from the floor. Is there a plan as part of this proposed merger to provide 00:12:36.209 --> 00:12:43.131 - the essential public transportation that rural transit will stop providing as of January 1st, 2027? 00:12:43.131 --> 00:12:50.123 - I can answer that. Okay, go ahead. Well, Ellisville's traditionally not been in the transit business 00:12:50.123 --> 00:12:57.115 - and that's not going to change. We don't know for sure just because this reorganization happens that 00:12:57.115 --> 00:12:58.430 - those in the rural 00:12:58.658 --> 00:13:05.186 - unit taxing units will lose rural transit. That's still an unknown. But I call out to the county again 00:13:05.186 --> 00:13:12.031 - to help with this because right now they are taxing 1% to all food and beverages in the town of Ellisville. 00:13:12.031 --> 00:13:18.370 - And the town of Ellisville gets zero from that. We get zero say in how it's spent. And when we went 00:13:18.370 --> 00:13:24.771 - up to the state to try to get that changed, the county fought us on it. That funding was supposed to 00:13:24.771 --> 00:13:28.574 - go for rural transit. And that would have solved the issue. 00:13:28.898 --> 00:13:35.685 - But the county decided it was more important to do whatever they're doing with it, which that's another 00:13:35.685 --> 00:13:42.602 - story. But if we want to get this situation solved, then they need to come up with us and sell the state. 00:13:42.602 --> 00:13:49.193 - Yes, we agree. Ellisville should control what's being collected in Ellisville. Because right now, it 00:13:49.193 --> 00:13:56.110 - is a bad situation. And the way the law is written, Ellisville could be 10 million people. And Ellisville 00:13:56.110 --> 00:13:58.590 - gets no say in what that tax goes to. 00:13:58.850 --> 00:14:07.933 - I think it's time for the county to join us instead of fighting us on that. And I was really disappointed 00:14:07.933 --> 00:14:16.845 - to see them because they knew what we wanted to use the money for. And they still said, no, we'd prefer 00:14:16.845 --> 00:14:25.757 - to keep it. Mr. Ellis is correct that the rare organization has nothing to do with the transit services 00:14:25.757 --> 00:14:28.670 - here. Something needs to be done. 00:14:29.058 --> 00:14:36.515 - presented to the town council here before, or previously, but we did fund the rural transit for part 00:14:36.515 --> 00:14:43.972 - of a year, and we've also had the county sort of support us on the rural transit services. Given the 00:14:43.972 --> 00:14:51.355 - fact that rural transit has helped to grow Ellisville, and Ellisville residents are dependent, some 00:14:51.355 --> 00:14:58.590 - of them are dependent on rural transit, that to me negates the argument that we don't do transit. 00:14:59.234 --> 00:15:06.571 - but we need to have a conversation with the Bloomington Transit, which is now undergoing a management 00:15:06.571 --> 00:15:14.268 - change. And in an earlier life, before I came to Indiana and California, I testified before the California 00:15:14.268 --> 00:15:21.677 - State Legislature on transit policies and did a lot of research in that area. We have some work to do, 00:15:21.677 --> 00:15:28.798 - and my hope is that we've got, I know we got a county representative that maybe somebody can have, 00:15:28.930 --> 00:15:35.673 - Talk some sense into the Bloomington Transit operation and and to get their heads on right so that we 00:15:35.673 --> 00:15:42.746 - get some support but As mr. Ellis said that's not happening and to be clear one of the reasons he mentions 00:15:42.746 --> 00:15:49.620 - that the federal funding for urban Areas it goes to the city of Bloomington the Transit Authority right 00:15:49.620 --> 00:15:51.934 - now. So the funding on that aspect 00:15:52.066 --> 00:15:57.665 - even for public transportation goes to the city of Bloomington. So we've kind of got two different 00:15:57.665 --> 00:16:03.602 - governmental entities. We were trying to think of outside the box using the food and beverage tax money, 00:16:03.602 --> 00:16:09.314 - which would have fully funded that. But yeah, I mean, you're right. The city, I think from what I've 00:16:09.314 --> 00:16:15.252 - heard from residents, they would prefer to stick with rural transit than have Bloomington come out here. 00:16:15.252 --> 00:16:19.550 - But we've had conversations with the old management at Bloomington Transit. 00:16:19.874 --> 00:16:27.293 - And it was a lot more expensive. I think it was over $220,000. We'd have to pay them to bring service 00:16:27.293 --> 00:16:34.858 - out here where rural transit can do it for $140,000. And the year that we did pay, I think it only came 00:16:34.858 --> 00:16:42.278 - to $110,000 to $115,000, something like that. So I think rural transit would be the better option for 00:16:42.278 --> 00:16:47.806 - our residents. And just finding a way to fund that is the $64,000 question. 00:16:48.162 --> 00:16:53.594 - And you're right, as I said, we're not in the transportation business. I'm not saying we shouldn't be, 00:16:53.594 --> 00:16:58.920 - because I agree with you, rural transit help with that. But it just, we don't even have a budget set 00:16:58.920 --> 00:17:04.405 - aside for a dime of that. One reason why Bloomington gets all the money, though, is I think Bloomington 00:17:04.405 --> 00:17:09.731 - also lays out a lot of money. And Ellisville has not been willing to lay out money for transit. Am I 00:17:09.731 --> 00:17:11.102 - correct on that, William? 00:17:11.330 --> 00:17:17.580 - No, it's the Bloomington gets the money because it's the federal designation. They are the Metropolitan 00:17:17.580 --> 00:17:23.650 - area that receives the federal funding for public transportation They're also reluctant to cooperate 00:17:23.650 --> 00:17:29.839 - though because they do put a lot of local dollars into they absolutely do and there's no doubt of that 00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:36.510 - and that's why I really think the food and beverage tax money freed up for us would be a better option because 00:17:37.186 --> 00:17:43.155 - the city of Bloomington's already subsidizing quite a bit of their bus service and they run a different 00:17:43.155 --> 00:17:48.953 - type of bus service than what our residents have need. The rural transit services call three days in 00:17:48.953 --> 00:17:54.692 - advance, sometimes shorter, if they have scheduling, they can pick you up. It's not a dedicated bus 00:17:54.692 --> 00:18:00.604 - route. I don't think Ellisville's to the point where we need that yet. That may be a discussion in the 00:18:00.604 --> 00:18:05.598 - future, but not initially. No, we do have some transit coming into Ellisville, though. 00:18:07.650 --> 00:18:15.237 - Where? Ivy Tech, I think. If Ivy Tech is in Aliceville, we've got a line that goes to Ivy Tech. Yes, 00:18:15.237 --> 00:18:22.975 - absolutely. I thought you meant currently. I was like, wow, news to me. But part of the problem is you 00:18:22.975 --> 00:18:31.012 - get about $0.25 out of the fare box for every dollar you spend on transit. And that's one of the dilemmas, 00:18:31.012 --> 00:18:37.022 - so that it needs to be heavily subsidized. I think I see a question back there. 00:18:38.402 --> 00:18:45.033 - Another question out here. One of the couple of questions that people asked were what were going to 00:18:45.033 --> 00:18:51.863 - happen with other public services, things like policing and snow plow and such of those things. So any 00:18:51.863 --> 00:18:58.958 - thoughts about where we're headed if the merger goes through with those services? There were two questions 00:18:58.958 --> 00:19:05.787 - that came, that you sent to us earlier. One was, what entity will be responsible for policing Richland 00:19:05.787 --> 00:19:06.782 - Township areas 00:19:06.914 --> 00:19:13.874 - that are now outside of Alexville after they are merged into Alexville? And that would be the Alexville 00:19:13.874 --> 00:19:20.967 - Police Department would be doing the policing that is now done by, I assume, the sheriffs? Yes. By county 00:19:20.967 --> 00:19:27.793 - agencies. And the other related question was, what entity, and this, William, you can sort of jump in 00:19:27.793 --> 00:19:34.485 - on, but what entity will be responsible for planning and zoning in Richland Township areas that are 00:19:34.485 --> 00:19:36.158 - now outside of Alexville 00:19:36.386 --> 00:19:43.228 - after they emerged into Ellisville. Now that's a little bit more complicated. Both of these details, 00:19:43.228 --> 00:19:50.341 - though, are covered in the online plan that you can get on the Ellisville website. And the plan is about 00:19:50.341 --> 00:19:57.792 - 45 pages plus appendices. But the plan does sort of say it's the Department of Planning, Planning Commission, 00:19:57.792 --> 00:20:04.702 - and the Zoning Appeals Board. I think those are the three entities that would be responsible for that 00:20:04.994 --> 00:20:11.928 - the planning and zoning function in the Richland Township area once it becomes part of Ellisville in 00:20:11.928 --> 00:20:18.999 - a merger. And to add to that, the intention is to have two different types of, kind of how we have two 00:20:18.999 --> 00:20:25.933 - different taxing districts, two different zoning districts, rural and urban, because those needs are 00:20:25.933 --> 00:20:32.318 - different and we have to match the needs that they have. And right now, we can't do anything 00:20:32.866 --> 00:20:40.143 - And that take any council action on it because that's not our jurisdiction yet. So we have to wait until 00:20:40.143 --> 00:20:47.282 - We have jurisdiction to do anything But the plan is and talk to the reorganization committee. We would 00:20:47.282 --> 00:20:54.421 - weigh the least restrictive of zoning from like the county what they currently have to Ellisville like 00:20:54.421 --> 00:20:59.134 - one of the things that the really draconian slope situations in the 00:20:59.458 --> 00:21:06.575 - in the incorporated areas that really is a hindrance to growth, in my opinion, Ellitsville doesn't have 00:21:06.575 --> 00:21:13.487 - that. So in that case, that wouldn't be, that would not apply. And the process to go through it, the 00:21:13.487 --> 00:21:20.398 - engineering process, all the site reviews that drags out time, I mean, I use this real world example 00:21:20.398 --> 00:21:27.584 - all the time, that Harmon Farms is annexed into Ellitsville for this reason that I'm talking to in March 00:21:27.584 --> 00:21:28.542 - of last year. 00:21:28.898 --> 00:21:36.784 - By July, they broke ground. By July of this year, they have over six properties already, homes built 00:21:36.784 --> 00:21:44.358 - to be sold. In conversations I've had with the Bloomington Chamber, Ellisville Chamber, Amplify, 00:21:44.358 --> 00:21:52.322 - and the BEDC, they cannot think of any county project that has moved that quickly. And we all know we 00:21:52.322 --> 00:21:58.334 - need housing, all different price points. And now's not the time to be timid 00:21:58.690 --> 00:22:06.269 - building that and Ellis fills up for the challenge I Thought this would be a good opportunity to Talk 00:22:06.269 --> 00:22:13.774 - a little bit about the policing if you look at the plan it goes it goes into this fairly extensively 00:22:13.774 --> 00:22:21.724 - What the plan lays out is that currently in the United States the average number of officers per residence 00:22:21.724 --> 00:22:25.662 - and that's generally measured as per 1,000 residents 00:22:25.890 --> 00:22:34.559 - That's you have 2.4 officers per 1000 residents here in Ellisville. Currently, it's 2.5. If this plan 00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:43.398 - were to go through the plan sets out that there will be in between 1.2 and 1.7 officers per 1000 people 00:22:43.398 --> 00:22:48.158 - that can sound scary that you're below the average, but 00:22:48.386 --> 00:22:55.614 - As you expand out into a rural area, I think it's no surprise generally that there is less crime as 00:22:55.614 --> 00:23:02.987 - you go out into the country than there is in big urban areas. Lots more police car calls to a Walmart 00:23:02.987 --> 00:23:10.721 - than to someone's country farm, right? And so the plan goes into this, and I thought it would be a helpful 00:23:10.721 --> 00:23:18.238 - comparison to the Monroe County Sheriff's Office, which is currently, I believe, at .87 police officers 00:23:18.466 --> 00:23:25.243 - per 1,000 residents. So even if this plan were to go forward, you would have a higher ratio of police 00:23:25.243 --> 00:23:31.888 - officers in the new Ellisville and what was Richland Township than what you currently have as being 00:23:31.888 --> 00:23:38.798 - protected outside of the Ellisville corporate boundaries. Now, if you were in the rural area, you would 00:23:38.798 --> 00:23:43.582 - have a higher ratio. This was one of the core things that we worked on. 00:23:43.874 --> 00:23:50.378 - I was the president of the county residents against the annexation movement in Bloomington a few years 00:23:50.378 --> 00:23:56.693 - ago. And this is one of the core things that we talked about was the city of Bloomington was not at 00:23:56.693 --> 00:24:00.798 - all ready to take on 15,000 more people with their police force. 00:24:00.962 --> 00:24:07.616 - And just from my reading of this and my at my understanding I don't see that as nearly as much of a 00:24:07.616 --> 00:24:14.469 - problem. The Fraternal Order of Police was against that in Bloomington. I've not seen a statement from 00:24:14.469 --> 00:24:21.389 - the Elksville police if they've articulated one, but the Bloomington police FOP was against it and I've 00:24:21.389 --> 00:24:28.176 - not heard that from the Elksville police. I see we have a police officer here in attendance, but Yes, 00:24:28.176 --> 00:24:29.374 - too. So thank you 00:24:36.834 --> 00:24:45.111 - So one of the questions that comes up in various ways is just what's going to happen to taxes for people 00:24:45.111 --> 00:24:53.230 - who would be brought into the new town, the new larger Ellitsville, and not just what will happen, but 00:24:53.230 --> 00:25:01.427 - who will be deciding what will happen with the taxes? The simple answer to that is who will be deciding 00:25:01.427 --> 00:25:06.078 - will be the law. I think the law is fairly precise on what 00:25:06.626 --> 00:25:14.126 - of the consequences are for property tax. Let me state a sort of a personal position, and that is that 00:25:14.126 --> 00:25:21.843 - I'm not anti-property tax. I'm not one that's gonna be getting up in a meeting and asking for my property 00:25:21.843 --> 00:25:29.270 - taxes to be lowered. I'm on the other side of the spectrum here. My concern is, are we gonna generate 00:25:29.270 --> 00:25:33.566 - enough revenue to provide the services we need to provide? 00:25:34.498 --> 00:25:42.448 - the sort of the urban-rural distinction or the town-rural distinction is one of those. If our police 00:25:42.448 --> 00:25:50.319 - officers are out in that farmland somewhere in the distance, some distance on the other side of the 00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:58.347 - current Richland Township, what's gonna happen with the cars that are going 50 to 60 miles an hour on 00:25:58.347 --> 00:26:03.070 - this 35-mile-an-hour speed limit? Now, my wife lost her car 00:26:03.426 --> 00:26:13.119 - She had a new Tucson, our Hyundai, I don't wanna say Tucson, I think it's Tucson, which we've tried 00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:23.199 - to sort of forget. But $46,000 damage on 46. I think part of the problem was, that was before the speed 00:26:23.199 --> 00:26:33.086 - limit went from 45 to 35. But even today, when I go 35, I'm passed by cars going considerably faster. 00:26:33.858 --> 00:26:41.625 - I don't and I know some of our police officers and people who are responsible for that are here I don't 00:26:41.625 --> 00:26:49.168 - my one of my concerns is I what I want to see us lay out enough money to have enough police officers 00:26:49.168 --> 00:26:56.711 - to control the speed limits in in Alexville because the speed limits are dangerous, you know, I live 00:26:56.711 --> 00:27:01.566 - on Abigail Lane, which has a speed limit of 20 miles an hour now 00:27:02.594 --> 00:27:12.970 - I seldom see any cars going down except mine, going down Abigail Lane at 20 miles an hour. They like 00:27:12.970 --> 00:27:23.242 - to go 40 because that's the fastest time from 46 to the other side of town. So my concern is, given 00:27:23.242 --> 00:27:31.358 - sort of the distinction in the plan, is are we gonna have enough fiscal effort 00:27:32.002 --> 00:27:41.014 - And are we going to sort of be sufficiently disciplined to make sure that, for instance, our police 00:27:41.014 --> 00:27:50.027 - force is doing its urban work while also tending to the rural work? And also, and there are similar 00:27:50.027 --> 00:27:59.580 - situation, the streets is another area of possible asymmetries between the urban and rural sort of proper 00:27:59.580 --> 00:28:01.022 - infrastructure. 00:28:03.554 --> 00:28:10.401 - Yeah, absolutely um the way the the urban rural districts work is Right now all those in Richland Township 00:28:10.401 --> 00:28:17.056 - are going to be in the rural district And as if you decide to just keep your property don't do anything 00:28:17.056 --> 00:28:23.519 - don't develop You're going to pay the rural rate, but let's say all of a sudden you say no I want to 00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:27.934 - move I want to sell this to somebody and they're going to develop it 00:28:28.386 --> 00:28:34.586 - then that's gonna kick into the urban rate for two reasons. One, to address the concerns that Dr. Perry 00:28:34.586 --> 00:28:40.667 - has brought up because more urbanized area needs more infrastructure. So we've set the rates that can 00:28:40.667 --> 00:28:46.808 - actually provide for that infrastructure, including police and roads. The other thing too is, and it's 00:28:46.808 --> 00:28:52.829 - a great unknown, I just got back from the Association of Indiana Municipalities Conference and I see 00:28:52.829 --> 00:28:55.870 - a council member here, I'm sure she's been to AIC. 00:28:56.034 --> 00:29:04.006 - also, and probably the same conversations. What is the state going to do with local income taxes? We 00:29:04.006 --> 00:29:12.373 - know they gotta do something. So that would be one funding source that we would have. But the urban-rural 00:29:12.373 --> 00:29:20.425 - mix, by all projections, should be able to handle that. We're also, I just mentioned this, I haven't, 00:29:20.425 --> 00:29:25.950 - you guys get my debut thought on this, is that the town of Westfield, 00:29:26.242 --> 00:29:32.379 - They do when you want to build sometimes you have what's called build by right and it means you follow 00:29:32.379 --> 00:29:38.635 - the planning and zoning. There's nothing that has to go to planning. You can just build. Well, one thing 00:29:38.635 --> 00:29:44.117 - that Westfield has done very successfully because you don't want growth if it's going to be 00:29:44.117 --> 00:29:45.726 - our infrastructure burden. 00:29:45.858 --> 00:29:51.961 - because that hurts your current residents, and they're paying for the new growth. The Harmon Farms growth, 00:29:51.961 --> 00:29:57.722 - Keehee growth, all the stuff we've done in the last five to six years has not been like that. It has 00:29:57.722 --> 00:30:03.540 - actually been tax positive, where it actually helps with the taxes with the rest of the residents. So 00:30:03.540 --> 00:30:09.358 - we need to take some steps to actually make sure the new growth fits that, because we don't just want 00:30:09.358 --> 00:30:11.582 - to have growth for the sake of growth. 00:30:11.938 --> 00:30:17.329 - We want to have growth to take some of the burden. I'm a little bit different than Dr. Perry. I am very 00:30:17.329 --> 00:30:22.719 - concerned about taxes. And one of my goals when I ran in 2019 was to get them lowered. But we also have 00:30:22.719 --> 00:30:27.955 - to provide basic services. And I don't want to just provide basic services. I want us to provide the 00:30:27.955 --> 00:30:33.553 - gold standard of services. And to do that, we have to make sure when something's developed that it actually 00:30:33.553 --> 00:30:35.678 - brings in a specific AV per square foot. 00:30:36.258 --> 00:30:41.766 - And that formulation, we'll have to figure out. But I think this would be a good time when we start 00:30:41.766 --> 00:30:47.659 - that UDO process for the rural. And we should put some of those triggers maybe into the urban mix. Because 00:30:47.659 --> 00:30:53.222 - nobody wants the Wild West. That doesn't help anyone. And our policemen, like I said, two here, they 00:30:53.222 --> 00:30:59.005 - need the funding. Our road crews, they need the funding. So these are things that we're thinking outside 00:30:59.005 --> 00:31:04.623 - the box. It's already working in a couple other communities. I mentioned Westfield. I believe another 00:31:04.623 --> 00:31:06.110 - one that was mentioned was 00:31:06.242 --> 00:31:12.483 - Noblesville and if you've been up there lately, their growth is pretty good And but they've got a plan 00:31:12.483 --> 00:31:18.725 - for it and Ellisville's already had a plan for it So I think that we have to make sure that the fiscal 00:31:18.725 --> 00:31:24.906 - numbers work. We've done it already for in Ellisville So I don't see that changing whether it becomes 00:31:24.906 --> 00:31:27.390 - part of our UDO or not. I don't know but 00:31:27.746 --> 00:31:34.324 - That's something I think a conversation I hope the public gets involved to when those hearings on the 00:31:34.324 --> 00:31:40.966 - UDO starts because if taxes are a concern we need to make sure that is something that's going to drive 00:31:40.966 --> 00:31:47.609 - those tax dollars down Let me sort of add to that William though because the UDO will according to the 00:31:47.609 --> 00:31:52.510 - plan needs to be modified. Yeah to accommodate the merged jurisdictions and 00:31:53.410 --> 00:32:00.965 - As does the comprehensive plan. So right. So there are there are a number of things that are that are 00:32:00.965 --> 00:32:08.372 - going to happen after the vote is positive for both jurisdictions and The UDO and the comprehensive 00:32:08.372 --> 00:32:12.446 - plan changes, I think are important components of that 00:32:13.762 --> 00:32:19.749 - One of the things that I wanted to highlight was, and Mr. Ellis, Mr. Perry have both said this, but 00:32:19.749 --> 00:32:26.036 - there are two separate tax rates. There's gonna be a rural tax rate, there's gonna be an urban tax rate. 00:32:26.036 --> 00:32:32.263 - And one of the biggest things that I saw when I was looking at it in terms of what the differences were 00:32:32.263 --> 00:32:38.430 - was the police protection is going to be paid for by the urban residents. And so I'd be interested how 00:32:38.430 --> 00:32:42.142 - that came together, but before I pass over to my friend here, 00:32:42.306 --> 00:32:48.982 - I wanted to just pull out the numbers for four people the current budget for the for the police in 2026 00:32:48.982 --> 00:32:55.722 - was two million two hundred and seventy thousand four hundred and thirty three dollars and the estimated 00:32:55.722 --> 00:33:02.206 - operating expenses in the large part this is going to come from the increased number of officers and 00:33:02.466 --> 00:33:09.630 - I mentioned before that that 1.2 per 1000 that in between 1.2 and 1.7 per 1000 people that else will 00:33:09.630 --> 00:33:16.794 - be moving to if this plan were to pass that includes hiring 12 new police officers And I believe one 00:33:16.794 --> 00:33:24.242 - civilian officer also and so that we will see an increase of eight hundred and fourteen thousand dollars 00:33:24.242 --> 00:33:29.278 - that will need I would say in large part to be hiring those people and 00:33:29.410 --> 00:33:35.233 - And so one of the questions that I had as I was reviewing the materials was how did it come to the decision? 00:33:35.233 --> 00:33:40.575 - I know that we wanted to have separate tax rates If you're out in the country pay a little bit less 00:33:40.575 --> 00:33:45.917 - if you're in the in the city in the in the big city of Elton You're gonna pay a little bit more But 00:33:45.917 --> 00:33:51.472 - I was curious how we came to the decision to put the put the police costs on that urban tax rate That's 00:33:51.472 --> 00:33:53.342 - a real good question. First of all 00:33:53.442 --> 00:33:59.343 - If we could, by Indiana State law, we would do a proportional tax, like a certain percentage of, but 00:33:59.343 --> 00:34:05.243 - the Indiana State Constitution prevents that. There's a uniformity clause, I think, in there. So the 00:34:05.243 --> 00:34:11.144 - only option was one set rate. And what would happen? The taxes in Richland Township would skyrocket, 00:34:11.144 --> 00:34:17.511 - and the taxes in the town would disproportionately drop. And that really is not fair to the rural residents, 00:34:17.511 --> 00:34:22.302 - because while it ended up happening, if you're a rural resident coming into town, 00:34:22.946 --> 00:34:29.747 - You're paying for decisions that the last you know 40 50 years of town councils have made from Ellisville 00:34:29.747 --> 00:34:35.649 - And you've not had a vote in it. So we decided to say what is the increase in costs? That's 00:34:35.649 --> 00:34:42.450 - this reorganization is going to cost now. There's been some things that you know, they don't it's They're 00:34:42.450 --> 00:34:47.262 - not paying anything into it. That actually is not true because in one hand 00:34:47.458 --> 00:34:54.511 - The tax caps in the rural areas are higher. So when we have the general fund, we're going to have LIT, 00:34:54.511 --> 00:35:01.563 - which is a local income tax, and whatever is replaced with, those are funds that police and associated 00:35:01.563 --> 00:35:08.547 - things to be paid from. So there is going to be some skin in the game. But to get it proportional, we 00:35:08.547 --> 00:35:15.326 - couldn't do that. And the rural area, by all data, is not going to take up 50% of our call volume. 00:35:16.002 --> 00:35:24.994 - and that would be more of an urban thing. So as we build, then that gives a sustainable path instead 00:35:24.994 --> 00:35:34.252 - of right off the bat saddling the township with decisions they had no say so in. That makes sense? Yes, 00:35:34.252 --> 00:35:43.422 - thank you. Just for further elaboration on that, I've got a document. I don't know where it came from. 00:35:43.842 --> 00:35:52.569 - Think it came from the Baker till the analysis and our fiscal impact statement, but It says here that 00:35:52.569 --> 00:36:01.296 - for tax liability of 200,000 in the township current township. There would be an increase of $332 per 00:36:01.296 --> 00:36:10.622 - year and for 300,000 residential homestead property 494 for the for the town of Ellisville those numbers are 00:36:11.298 --> 00:36:19.810 - Similar numbers for 200,000 would be 72 and zero Those I'm at I think I'm at the cap. Yeah, those numbers 00:36:19.810 --> 00:36:28.082 - Those aren't the certified one sent to the state the one sent to the state was on a $200,000 home $142 00:36:28.082 --> 00:36:36.353 - for the rural and $66 for the town So those there's a differential. There is a differential of the tax 00:36:36.353 --> 00:36:39.646 - increase partly because the the township 00:36:39.746 --> 00:36:46.139 - Taxes are lower farther beneath the cap that that's why you know one of the things if you've seen me 00:36:46.139 --> 00:36:52.595 - on social media I read I really don't want to talk tax rates and the reason not because I'm afraid of 00:36:52.595 --> 00:36:59.241 - them, but they're one half of a math equation Just saying what a rate is is not going to tell you what's 00:36:59.241 --> 00:37:05.634 - going on So I'm like looking in real dollars and that's and those numbers I think were before We got 00:37:05.634 --> 00:37:08.862 - the certified budget order I believe from for next 00:37:09.154 --> 00:37:17.656 - this year whatever it was preliminary but with the ones that were sent to the state which will be the 00:37:17.656 --> 00:37:26.325 - budget for the state or 142 for rural and that and 66 for town as just a notice noted also and the this 00:37:26.325 --> 00:37:35.078 - se a one of 2025 had two tax components property taxes and local income taxes and the local income taxes 00:37:35.078 --> 00:37:37.662 - still a wish a dream sort of a 00:37:38.178 --> 00:37:45.748 - Thing to talk about in the future. It's been pushed to 2030 now. Really? Yep. So it's three pushes now? 00:37:45.748 --> 00:37:53.463 - Yes. Yeah. She'll try to figure it out, I think. OK. On a totally, or at least possibly totally different 00:37:53.463 --> 00:38:01.470 - topic, what would happen if a data center wanted to be built, or somebody wanted to build one in Ellensville? 00:38:02.402 --> 00:38:07.808 - I can I say one thing just and just before we jump to that I think there are some other people with 00:38:07.808 --> 00:38:13.430 - more to say on that but just a Public service thing and one of the things that we're talking about here 00:38:13.430 --> 00:38:19.106 - It's so hard to forecast out what exactly the taxes are going to be it's going to be different for every 00:38:19.106 --> 00:38:25.214 - person and not just because of the value of your home but because different people have we have a constitutional 00:38:25.314 --> 00:38:32.456 - Caps on what you're allowed to pay on property tax. So for example on your residential home You'll never 00:38:32.456 --> 00:38:39.258 - ever be taxed more than 1% of your home's assessed value except for a special referendum Which will 00:38:39.258 --> 00:38:46.400 - include usually things like schools So if you vote yes on a school referendum and go above that 1% there 00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:51.774 - are caps at 2% and 3% for commercial property So you'll never pay more than 1% 00:38:52.066 --> 00:38:57.779 - For those of us here that are over 65, and if you've not done this, you have to initiate this yourself. 00:38:57.779 --> 00:39:03.437 - You must go to the county auditor's office and say, I own my home. I'm over 65 years old. And when you 00:39:03.437 --> 00:39:05.470 - do that, when you turn in that form, 00:39:05.538 --> 00:39:11.136 - Your tax bill from year to year will never increase more than 2%. And so if you've not done that, you 00:39:11.136 --> 00:39:16.734 - really should take the time to go to the county auditor's office and do that. That makes it harder to 00:39:16.734 --> 00:39:22.277 - do our job of trying to figure out what exactly the revenue that we're going to bring in. But that's 00:39:22.277 --> 00:39:27.766 - what's best for all of you in your pocketbook. So if you've not done that, I'd be happy to talk you 00:39:27.766 --> 00:39:33.418 - through that process afterwards. But that's all available to anybody over the age of 65. And likewise, 00:39:33.418 --> 00:39:35.504 - if you're disabled, there are credits 00:39:35.504 --> 00:39:41.601 - for you on that so I just wanted to let all of you know that are that are here and watching that that 00:39:41.601 --> 00:39:47.639 - that's available to you so you should look into those if you fit into those categories but on to the 00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:53.796 - hot hot moment data center things now everybody's looking at me okay I don't think our current UDO and 00:39:53.796 --> 00:39:59.893 - planning and zoning will allow data center here's one thing that would just we have a noise ordinance 00:39:59.893 --> 00:40:03.838 - I think it's a 10 or 11 maybe one of you guys could please what's 00:40:05.186 --> 00:40:11.976 - 11 okay, so one of the complaints with data centers is the noise right there. That's a no-go You know 00:40:11.976 --> 00:40:18.832 - I have had people suggest that we should do a blanket ban The problem is with doing that data centers. 00:40:18.832 --> 00:40:25.688 - There's different types. There's a hyperscale They're smaller ones and if you do a blanket ban You may 00:40:25.688 --> 00:40:32.478 - be missing out on some opportunities that actually be good I don't know what the infrastructure needs 00:40:32.478 --> 00:40:34.142 - of a data center are and 00:40:34.626 --> 00:40:42.468 - I have no idea if we would have the water or electric capacity. It would have to depend on the project. 00:40:42.468 --> 00:40:50.234 - But one of my future town council members, I was just talking to him about one aspect that has touched 00:40:50.234 --> 00:40:58.302 - on data centers. And I told him I'd support it because he can lead the way. It's Andrew Henry, by the way. 00:40:58.626 --> 00:41:05.831 - Yeah, he probably has no idea where I'm going with this Okay, yes That we will not sign NDAs on these 00:41:05.831 --> 00:41:13.248 - things So there'll be no end, you know because the public needs to know if something like this seriously 00:41:13.248 --> 00:41:20.594 - is being considered But I do also then ask the public don't just take what I'd say is the most use most 00:41:20.594 --> 00:41:24.126 - recent YouTube video on what data centers are and 00:41:24.546 --> 00:41:32.222 - It's it's a nuanced thing and what I also said what I see is a lot of people just saying no data centers 00:41:32.222 --> 00:41:39.680 - but then the same people want lower taxes and those are conflicting things and So nobody's approached 00:41:39.680 --> 00:41:46.991 - us for one. I can say that with complete Honesty, I don't know if we'd be a good fit for it. I mean 00:41:46.991 --> 00:41:53.278 - We're not going to seek out one so I but it would have to depend on the project and I 00:41:53.602 --> 00:42:01.188 - with serious public input for this. It's not something we're just gonna bulldoze the public on. I suppose 00:42:01.188 --> 00:42:08.415 - I can back you up on that, more or less. It's been an area where I've been involved in a fair amount 00:42:08.415 --> 00:42:15.858 - for a bunch of different counties. Like, what would be the impact of this or that data center? And what 00:42:15.858 --> 00:42:17.790 - you said is exactly right. 00:42:18.562 --> 00:42:26.274 - social media is just flooded with noise on it, and it just makes it very difficult for people to understand 00:42:26.274 --> 00:42:33.843 - what is true and what is false when the truth is just that there's a lot of options. There's a collateral 00:42:33.843 --> 00:42:41.126 - amount of, and they can be like lottery tickets to the right community under the right circumstances. 00:42:41.126 --> 00:42:45.982 - So like, thing that demands rational investigation and not YouTube. 00:42:48.610 --> 00:42:58.065 - My name's Harry Ferris. I'm one of the rural residents of Richland Township. I'm really disappointed 00:42:58.065 --> 00:43:07.894 - in this meeting. We spent almost 45 minutes off topic on transportation, on data centers. The referendum 00:43:07.894 --> 00:43:15.102 - as it's proposed on the ballot hasn't even been read yet. My main concern is 00:43:16.354 --> 00:43:26.288 - according to Baker tell is I you saw me William yet 6 year meetings yet. My taxes will go up 6% plus 00:43:26.288 --> 00:43:36.223 - 6.7 6.9 I believe 6.9 OK and the towns will go up 4.1% correct. So I'm curious. I'm pleased with the 00:43:36.223 --> 00:43:44.190 - deputy service that I have I'm pleased with the highways and streets that I have 00:43:45.698 --> 00:43:52.623 - In the six meetings that I attended, I heard nothing of what was going to be offered to me 00:43:52.623 --> 00:44:00.537 - by this reorganization, other than an increase in my taxes and my neighbor's taxes. One of my concerns, 00:44:00.537 --> 00:44:08.374 - and part of this meeting was supposed to be the consequences of this referendum. Well, my two specific 00:44:08.374 --> 00:44:14.462 - questions, which this kind lady touched on earlier, but we got off topic on it, 00:44:15.522 --> 00:44:24.299 - For example, snow plow service. How does the town of Ellsfield, if this passes in November, if it's 00:44:24.299 --> 00:44:33.339 - passed on November 4th, third election, we'd know November 4th, how are they gonna have snow plows and 00:44:33.339 --> 00:44:42.906 - personnel by January 1, 2027. A, and B, even currently now, the county takes care of mowing the right-of-way 00:44:42.906 --> 00:44:44.574 - on county property 00:44:45.122 --> 00:44:54.051 - rural roads. I don't see where in any of the meetings were and any of the planning that Baker Tilley 00:44:54.051 --> 00:45:02.979 - submitted were funds or planning was allocated for those services just those two services and that's 00:45:02.979 --> 00:45:12.350 - a concern of mine why am I paying six points nine percent additional taxes for you possibly to provide me 00:45:12.962 --> 00:45:20.775 - Road services and or mowing services on County property So well one that property would then be Ellisville 00:45:20.775 --> 00:45:28.223 - so we have the responsibility But to how we get up there one of the things that we've done is we have 00:45:28.223 --> 00:45:35.817 - a Department of Public Works. We haven't separated Road a lot of people they cross-train so if it means 00:45:35.817 --> 00:45:42.462 - that Everybody that works for the Department of Public Works that includes roads utilities 00:45:42.562 --> 00:45:48.258 - and water and sewer We're prepared to equip them with a snow plow They know how to use it. The other 00:45:48.258 --> 00:45:54.236 - thing we have contingency plans for contractors You're not going to go on cloud because right now there's 00:45:54.236 --> 00:45:59.876 - certain inventory and you're in Richland Township roads at the county won't apply apply because her 00:45:59.876 --> 00:46:05.854 - plow because they're not up to spec we're going to take care of first and worry about those other details 00:46:05.854 --> 00:46:11.550 - later and You know on if the roads up to spec or not. We want to make sure it's plowed and that's my 00:46:11.778 --> 00:46:19.408 - That's my curiosity. You're going to use existing town people, but you're adding 70 miles of roads and 00:46:19.408 --> 00:46:26.964 - streets. To your inventory, right, but only a certain care only a certain small portion of those town 00:46:26.964 --> 00:46:32.446 - people right now work on road and streets so we can scale up pretty fast. 00:46:33.026 --> 00:46:38.650 - That's one thing. And like I said, our personnel and equipment in two months. No, no, no, we have the 00:46:38.650 --> 00:46:44.274 - of all the people from the Department of Public Works right now. Only a small portion of them work on 00:46:44.274 --> 00:46:49.898 - the roads. But if we have a snow event right away before we can get those hires, there's two options. 00:46:49.898 --> 00:46:55.742 - Like I said, we can call everybody kind of all hands on deck. They know how to do these things. Secondly, 00:46:55.874 --> 00:47:02.981 - Contractors and we've already done some contact contacting with them town of Sheridan had the same question 00:47:02.981 --> 00:47:09.626 - and what their solution was They actually what the town of Sheridan Adams Township is who we based a 00:47:09.626 --> 00:47:14.430 - lot of this from they had subcontractors actually do the rural areas and 00:47:14.658 --> 00:47:20.881 - Turned out extremely. Well now the road funding I do know and they've probably seen it's not necessarily 00:47:20.881 --> 00:47:27.104 - directly in the plan It's because road funding predominantly does not come from property taxes. It comes 00:47:27.104 --> 00:47:33.150 - from the state sales tax or gas tax and Community crossing grants and it follows the road So if those 00:47:33.150 --> 00:47:39.195 - roads are in our inventory and they're in Ellsville, then the money that currently would go to county 00:47:39.195 --> 00:47:41.566 - would go to Ellsville so They're funded 00:47:43.234 --> 00:47:51.617 - So, to the seven member elected town council. Now, according to the meetings that I attended, there'll 00:47:51.617 --> 00:47:59.919 - be two at large from the rural, two from Alexville, total of seven. Six will be elected, the six will 00:47:59.919 --> 00:48:08.221 - appoint the seventh member, is my understanding, is that correct? No. All seven will be elected? Yes, 00:48:08.221 --> 00:48:11.070 - the five will be elected currently 00:48:11.394 --> 00:48:18.868 - You know, from the town, which we expanded their districts though, like next year, there's three of 00:48:18.868 --> 00:48:26.716 - us running. Two of the three of them have substantial increases in township areas. So township residents 00:48:26.716 --> 00:48:34.563 - would qualify to run. And then the two at large will be the top two vote getters for the township board. 00:48:34.563 --> 00:48:39.870 - So, should this pass November 3rd, and then January 1, it's in effect, 00:48:41.698 --> 00:48:48.140 - Who is my representative? Since we haven't voted on my at-large members. Well, your at-large members 00:48:48.140 --> 00:48:54.838 - would be the two top vote-getters from the township board. So you will have voted on them when you vote. 00:48:54.838 --> 00:49:01.344 - Because the township will still be on the ballot. They've got to plan for both contingencies, whether 00:49:01.344 --> 00:49:07.850 - it passes or not. But the major doesn't read that, that the township board members will be elected to 00:49:07.850 --> 00:49:11.486 - the new organization. What doesn't read that? I'm sorry. 00:49:12.610 --> 00:49:23.469 - The referendum doesn't read that. No, we have specific language we have to use with the state referendum 00:49:23.469 --> 00:49:34.536 - and approved by the DLGS. We can't go into a lot of details with that, but that's in the plan. So November 00:49:34.536 --> 00:49:41.982 - 3rd, if I vote down for this, how do I vote for township board members? 00:49:42.434 --> 00:49:48.566 - They're both on the ballot simultaneously. They are. Yes. And if this fails, there's three township 00:49:48.566 --> 00:49:54.391 - or that is correct. But there's only two on the ballot. No, there's all three. All three. Yes. 00:49:54.391 --> 00:50:00.646 - That third one. I don't know if it's in the plan. Maybe you guys the plan was to put them on the plan 00:50:00.646 --> 00:50:06.962 - commission planning and zoning and then choose another one. But but for the town council, which is the 00:50:06.962 --> 00:50:11.070 - core for everything, the top two vote getters will go to the town. 00:50:12.034 --> 00:50:18.999 - So what am I getting for my 6.9% tax? What additional benefits and service right? Well, it's more of 00:50:18.999 --> 00:50:25.895 - a long term and I mean, I know people hate to say that, but what it does give you is right now your 00:50:25.895 --> 00:50:32.998 - representative. You have one at large. I think she's here tonight and one district representative from 00:50:32.998 --> 00:50:37.342 - the County Council. They have other townships. They have other 00:50:37.602 --> 00:50:43.555 - things they have to consider. So a good example on planning and zoning. I don't fault Monroe County 00:50:43.555 --> 00:50:49.687 - for having the planning and zoning like they do, but is it right for Richland Township? Well, with the 00:50:49.687 --> 00:50:55.819 - amount of super voluntary annexations we've had, I think the answer is resoundingly no. And so they've 00:50:55.819 --> 00:51:01.594 - got to factor in not just Richland, they have to factor in Bloomington Township, Perry Township, 00:51:01.594 --> 00:51:03.678 - you know, all those. So your reps, 00:51:03.970 --> 00:51:10.905 - Will answer directly to you be your friends and neighbors in the town of Ellisville So the people that 00:51:10.905 --> 00:51:17.908 - live near your neighbors are the ones and they don't have those other competing interests So in a sense 00:51:17.908 --> 00:51:24.641 - kind of like a little island where you get more direct control Also from when you say what else you 00:51:24.641 --> 00:51:31.913 - get? one thing that it It's not a guarantee, but just right now if you call 9-1-1 and you have an emergency 00:51:31.913 --> 00:51:32.990 - County services 00:51:33.442 --> 00:51:39.335 - They're phenomenal, okay, I'm not gonna lie to you. They really are. Sheriff does a great job. And we 00:51:39.335 --> 00:51:45.171 - don't know where that officer is. In other words, because they're patrolling all that unincorporated 00:51:45.171 --> 00:51:51.007 - area. Here, Ellisville will be the first one to take it. Your dispatch will be here. You've probably 00:51:51.007 --> 00:51:57.073 - seen Ellisville police sometimes in the township because we have mutual aid agreements. That's not gonna 00:51:57.073 --> 00:52:03.198 - change. So in situations where police are needed, we'll still have the full resources from Monroe County, 00:52:03.490 --> 00:52:11.351 - the city of Bloomington, but Ellisville will be your first call, which will be closer. Well, 00:52:11.351 --> 00:52:19.297 - to that point, I live in the far southeast corner, my two streets, Broadway and Grand Avenue, 00:52:19.297 --> 00:52:27.750 - and west third, approximately 96 houses, residences. I'm not hopeful for a reasonable response time 00:52:27.750 --> 00:52:29.694 - for Ellisville police. 00:52:30.146 --> 00:52:37.001 - So that far southeast corner. In an emergency, I'm not sure how it works with mutual aid. That's something 00:52:37.001 --> 00:52:43.408 - I'm not really an expert on. And Shannon, you can just nod. In mutual aid, if there's an emergency, 00:52:43.408 --> 00:52:49.943 - is it the closest responding officer? In an emergency, an officer, if they're close, they're going to 00:52:49.943 --> 00:52:56.222 - respond. OK. But if you just have somebody that's spray painted your lawn or something like that, 00:52:56.866 --> 00:53:03.840 - That may be something that takes a little bit understand right. But yeah, so that that would be that 00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:10.814 - but and. There. How much did you say your taxes will go according to Baker Tilly's I have the report 00:53:10.814 --> 00:53:17.927 - six point use. Yeah, 6.9% I thought it was six, but I don't have it. Yeah, that's fine. Okay, 6.9, but 00:53:17.927 --> 00:53:25.177 - I think you're correct. Yeah, that's fine. Well, one thing that and I know there's been some controversy 00:53:25.177 --> 00:53:26.558 - over this, but that 00:53:26.754 --> 00:53:33.801 - There's two the options on the ballot. There's one option about yes or no for that But let me tell everybody 00:53:33.801 --> 00:53:40.460 - what happens if no kicks in if no wins the day then the fire territory that we've that was passed back 00:53:40.460 --> 00:53:46.989 - in March between the township and The town of Ellisville to keep our same fire protection. We've had 00:53:46.989 --> 00:53:53.519 - for 80 years now that kicks in and what that would end up doing your taxes will be a lot higher with 00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:55.006 - a no vote because Lisa 00:53:55.170 --> 00:54:06.320 - I've asked you for your data, you've refused to present it. So... Did I state otherwise? I did not. 00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:17.694 - This is not a debate also, and I'm talking to him. Okay? I did not say your taxes won't go up. I said 00:54:17.694 --> 00:54:24.830 - they'll go up higher. Yes, because the fire territory kicks in. 00:54:25.570 --> 00:54:49.105 - Would you... huh? Again, half a math equation. There's property tax caps are different, and you're not 00:54:49.105 --> 00:54:52.990 - spread out. Yes. 00:54:53.154 --> 00:54:58.599 - but then they don't have it spread out with as many people. So their actual dollar of increase will 00:54:58.599 --> 00:55:04.099 - be higher. So Ralph, can we get some control on this, please? I don't mind talking about this if she 00:55:04.099 --> 00:55:09.707 - wants to come to here. And I've asked her, because we've had this Facebook conversation numerous times 00:55:09.707 --> 00:55:15.370 - to produce the data where she says that I'm incorrect on this. She has refused. And this is what I even 00:55:15.370 --> 00:55:20.924 - talk about with data center misinformation. We have some people that live on social media that simply 00:55:20.924 --> 00:55:22.558 - think they can post something 00:55:23.010 --> 00:55:29.600 - and have somebody with data and refute that thing and just say uh-uh. And that is something as a town 00:55:29.600 --> 00:55:36.385 - council and it infuriates me because people are gonna see that and make the bad decision on that because 00:55:36.385 --> 00:55:43.040 - with that fire protection rate, you're still paying the township tax rate too. That's the other factor 00:55:43.040 --> 00:55:49.889 - that's not being considered too. So on that $200,000 home example, if you vote yes in the rural township, 00:55:49.889 --> 00:55:52.990 - it's about $115. A no vote would be about $102. 00:55:53.538 --> 00:56:01.676 - The rates are different, but it's because with a yes vote, that is spread out over both the urban and 00:56:01.676 --> 00:56:09.894 - the rural on everything but police and CUMCAP. So the individual taxpayers more. Nobody pays the bills 00:56:09.894 --> 00:56:13.086 - in rate. They pay it in actual dollars. 00:56:13.474 --> 00:56:19.433 - That is one of the things I think government has done poorly for their residents and constituents They 00:56:19.433 --> 00:56:25.277 - talk rate all the time and think they've cut the rate and declare victory and say that we've lowered 00:56:25.277 --> 00:56:31.236 - taxes Well if assessments go up more than you've cut the rate You've actually raised taxes and we know 00:56:31.236 --> 00:56:37.079 - what the rates are in the last six years We have been cognizant of what the actual dollar tax impact 00:56:37.079 --> 00:56:41.534 - is. I don't know any other government unit that does that but we do that and 00:56:42.402 --> 00:56:58.736 - And so, I'm not upset at you, I just want you to... Yeah. I can sense the data, the methodology, everything. 00:56:58.736 --> 00:57:11.774 - Correct. No, 192. No, it's 192. Yes. That's not the fire district, the fire territory. 00:57:12.258 --> 00:57:23.988 - Because if this fails well if it passes the the fire is lumped into the overall rate for everybody But 00:57:23.988 --> 00:57:35.832 - if this fails the fire rate doesn't have that offset for any of the other funds That is correct correct 00:57:35.832 --> 00:57:41.982 - Yes Correct I'm not sure what the percentage would be 00:57:42.786 --> 00:57:52.359 - for the fire. I have to evaluate whether the 115 versus the 192 versus the 6.9% on my actual property, 00:57:52.359 --> 00:58:02.025 - which is lower or higher. That's correct. Just dollar amount. But other than the fire district, there's 00:58:02.025 --> 00:58:05.278 - a different mass. So I'm penalized 00:58:07.746 --> 00:58:15.045 - Right you still have fire server and to protect that because the option if we didn't do that would be 00:58:15.045 --> 00:58:22.345 - for the county to put in a fire district which is a lot higher we're looking at about almost $500 for 00:58:22.345 --> 00:58:29.501 - what they would do so we've seen that with Bean Blossom it could be higher for Richland I know what 00:58:29.501 --> 00:58:31.934 - you mean. Yeah, I understand Yeah 00:58:32.386 --> 00:58:43.012 - I completely understand. And if anyone wants to send me their particular assessed value, I can look 00:58:43.012 --> 00:58:54.170 - up, it's public information, I can let you know to the penny what your tax estimation is. Okay. Awesome. 00:58:54.170 --> 00:59:01.502 - You can go ahead and ask your question and I'll lump it in if I can. 00:59:01.826 --> 00:59:08.697 - I was glad to hear data centers are not gonna happen, because with those non-disclosure agreements, 00:59:08.697 --> 00:59:15.912 - it happens before anybody knows about it. The speed enforcement, I'm a grandmother who babysits on Heart 00:59:15.912 --> 00:59:22.783 - Street Road. Ellisville, you could make money all day long just having people on Heart Street Road. 00:59:22.783 --> 00:59:24.638 - It's the highway of death. 00:59:24.962 --> 00:59:31.473 - I mean, it's absolutely unbelievable the traffic that flies up and down that road and the speeds. But 00:59:31.473 --> 00:59:38.176 - my question, Mr. Perry, the zoning, I didn't understand how this would affect zoning. Are we still under 00:59:38.176 --> 00:59:44.687 - the county zoning ordinance? Would it still go to the county board of zoning appeal? For planning and 00:59:44.687 --> 00:59:51.262 - zoning, I'm confused how this would affect it. William can probably answer this better than I can, but 00:59:52.034 --> 01:00:00.855 - Once Richland Township becomes part of Ellitsville, it will be covered by the Ellitsville Planning Commission 01:00:00.855 --> 01:00:09.035 - and Ellitsville Board of Zoning Appeals, and the Ellitsville Planning Department. And so, sort of the 01:00:09.035 --> 01:00:17.214 - responsible agents, the governmental agents, will be appointed by, among others, the town councilors. 01:00:17.954 --> 01:00:24.744 - And the seven people that were referred to earlier would be appointing the members of the Planning Commission 01:00:24.744 --> 01:00:31.349 - like oh Yes, yeah No, yeah, we have a Planning Commission. That's all right. We have a Planning Commission 01:00:31.349 --> 01:00:37.522 - in a bza and So it would it would just default to us and we have our own building and permitting so 01:00:37.522 --> 01:00:42.398 - I think the only thing we don't do is health department septic inspections and 01:00:42.498 --> 01:00:50.241 - Now, that reinforces a point William was making, and that is that the sort of control will come closer 01:00:50.241 --> 01:00:58.134 - to individuals in the township. And that would be, for some people, probably a plus, I suspect, in terms 01:00:58.134 --> 01:01:05.651 - of sort of controlling the growth and the like, and having some influence on that. Although, again, 01:01:05.651 --> 01:01:11.966 - then you'd still have to be active locally, if not in the county at the town level. 01:01:14.178 --> 01:01:20.104 - Okay, I think we've made very clear that where we live and how we preserve it and present protect it 01:01:20.104 --> 01:01:26.381 - for future Generations is an important topic. There are lots of questions to go on here Somebody suggested 01:01:26.381 --> 01:01:32.483 - we should read the ordinance and the ordinance just I mean the referendum question Which basically says 01:01:32.483 --> 01:01:38.819 - there's this proposal are you for it or against it? so if you want to dig down and find out what's actually 01:01:38.819 --> 01:01:39.582 - going on and 01:01:39.682 --> 01:01:45.726 - Forums like this, talking with other people who are knowledgeable about the topic is a good way to do 01:01:45.726 --> 01:01:51.830 - it. I thank so much to CATS for recording this because there are lots of people who are interested and 01:01:51.830 --> 01:01:53.726 - wouldn't get here on their own. 01:01:54.018 --> 01:02:00.848 - Special thanks also to our panelists. All four of you were wonderful and very helpful in keeping things 01:02:00.848 --> 01:02:07.744 - going and informative. And just remember that there is an election on November 3rd where this referendum 01:02:07.744 --> 01:02:12.670 - question will be on the ballot. Early voting starts on Tuesday, October 6. 01:03:00.802 --> 01:03:08.958 - Thank you, Lee. Thank you.