This is my mic now, but very soon it will be your mic. I'm Ralph Shaw. I'm the spokesperson for the
League of Women Voters of Bloomington, Monroe County. We're very happy to be here hosting this discussion
forum about the reorganization of Ellisville and Richland Township, which is going to be on the ballot.
There's an election coming up.
We put together a panel of people who have different backgrounds and perspectives. I'll just briefly
say what they are. We'll then turn to one of our people to give kind of a little bit of general view
from the state perspective of what's going on and what we might expect. And then we really want to answer
questions from you. We've received some interesting questions that were submitted by email. And so we
may have some of those discussed a little bit.
but also if there are things that are of great importance to you, please feel free to come up and pose
a question to any or all of the members of the panel. Our panelists are Jim Perry, who's a retired faculty
member from SPIA, interested in aspects of local government as well. SPIA is what? Oh, my goodness.
School of Public and Environmental Affairs. The Paul H. O'Neill School. The O'Neill School of Public
and Environmental Affairs.
And I know how to spell O'Neill also. Justin Ross, who is from the same school. Colby Wicker, who is
a law student at the Maurer School of Law and also an Ellisville resident, as is Jim, actually. And
William Ellis, who has been very active on the reorganization committee for the work that's
come forward as the proposal of the referendum that will be on the ballot in November. So we're delighted
to have people here. We're going to ask Justin to talk a little bit about what's going on, what motivated
all this, where we stand in terms of what the state, we'll say, is trying to do possibly to us. And
then we'll go on to questions. Thank you for having me.
I think it's great to see so many people here interested in coming and talking about this. In another
state where maybe such decisions were more straightforward from a policy perspective, this would still
be a pretty complicated thing to think through. It's particularly challenging in Indiana. Indiana has,
I think, a good candidate to be one of the more complicated states on how the property tax system works.
And this...
is a system that's still somewhat relatively new from a kind of a practical perspective. So there's
the property tax caps that were passed in 2007 to 2008 that I think is what made us, in part, so complicated.
And a very closely related idea to what is being done here in Eltsville and Richmond is annexation.
And I can remember a...
when the property tax caps were first passed, one of the first instances in which I can remember is
realizing how weird the new property tax system was with an annexation because a town annexed a set
of neighborhoods and their property tax revenues went down, which simply was not even on the radar as
a thing that might happen.
And it was kind of like that moment was, oh, man, these are really different and weird and odd. And
the state has been kind of, in some sense, dealing with the kind of fallout from this a little bit ever
since. Most recently with the 2025 property tax reform last year. That came at the end of a two-year
work task force. So it was a task force that I was on as the university-appointed economist,
position that they had on there to try and help them think about incentives of different choices and
stuff. And it started out very, very broad, like, what in Indiana's tax system should change, if anything?
And it started out very broad, talking about income taxes, corporate income taxes, the gamut of everything.
But by the end of that two years, the only thing anybody was talking about was property taxes, still,
you know? Even after all these earlier efforts to try and roll back
property tax burdens. So we had this plan, we had all this stuff implemented, and then Governor Braun,
who was newly elected at that time, came in right after that, and he had campaign promises that he wanted
to deliver on. And they were not entirely compatible with how the property tax system really worked
in terms of what you could deliver on.
And kind of the reforms that then kind of came out of the end of this, I think, further exacerbate just
a lot of the uncertainty. And it's something that's gonna be phased in over five years as the way it's
currently written up, with additional changes to the local income tax, which they have already, I think,
now twice, kicked down for a year of delay before implementation. So that's a lot of stuff that is going
on just to make things
already more complicated than it. So even in a normal event, it would be challenging enough. But you
do have this additional layer of just uncertainty about where things are going. This ties in, I think,
very directly with the state's long-standing interest and perhaps skepticism with township government.
For as long as I've been here, there has been, which is since 2008 is when I moved here. But just briefly
before I arrived,
there was what was known as the Kern Shepherd Report, which proposed the elimination of townships. And
there has certainly, part of the property tax cap system was understood to be in that light. Let's try
and find ways to remove levels of services that were the responsibility of the township, push them someplace
else, whether it be the county or otherwise, as part of an overall approach to try and also cut back
on property tax burdens. And so the more recent,
bills that you're seeing in this, I think could be understood in this way. So earlier in this year,
the legislature passed a performance grading system for township governments that if the townships fail
to meet certain performance criteria, they could be forced into a consolidation with another unit or
something else can be done to remove them. And so, I think that's just
part and parcel of the interest in finding ways to get local governments to be less property tax-dependent,
as well as just trying to scale back on potentially a level of government that they've never
been particularly fond of.
I should have mentioned that we are under time limits. The library has to close by 7 o'clock. We're
supposed to be out of here well before then. So if there are questions that you have that you want to
bring to our attention, please step forward and bring them up now. I would like to know, there are a
couple of questions that we received by email. Colby, maybe you want to go through some of that? Sure.
And then William also has some perspectives too.
Sure, so to pick up where Justin ended, Senate Bill 270 is this grading mechanism that he's talking
about. And it sets out, I'd be happy to sort of talk through that process a little bit. So the state's
longstanding concerns were that there were lots of township governments that weren't doing what township
governments are there to do.
One of the many responsibilities that townships have, most important, I would say, is township assistance.
So someone can't afford their rent, their utilities. If someone passes away and they don't have the
money to either be buried or be cremated, you can go to your township trustee's office and you can get
assistance.
I was just talking with Mr. Perry here before we started there almost 1000 townships in Indiana. There
are 11 here here in Monroe County. And so that means if you're doing the math, there are lots of townships
that have less than even 1000 people. And so that means a lot of these townships aren't really doing anything.
And so the state, this is sort of a compromise measure to say that we're going to take the townships
that are smaller, that maybe the residents there aren't getting the services that they need, merge them
with a bigger township so they can have sort of professionalized service, an office they can go to that's
open all day long where they can get some of these services.
And as a part of that, if they're graded out, one of the ways of solving that was not merging with another
township, but was also merging with a municipality. And so some townships will be forced into that going
off of this. My understanding is that Richland Township is not one of those. Richland is one of the
larger townships. It has, what, 15,000 people in it, so it's pretty big for township standards.
That wasn't going to be something that this township was forced into. My understanding with this organization
was that it was to come together just to have one united place of government for people to come to for
all of these things. I come from a township government background. I work in Van Buren Township, so
the township just to the south of us here.
Right, which is right by the airport. I've been there for about seven years And we have constant contact
with Richland and it seems like pretty much how things operate is how it's going to continue there So
I just wanted to address there was a question about Senate bill 270 and how that affected some of the
Different considerations here in my understanding with it is it has no bearing on it whatsoever
The other question that I wanted to answer was about Some of the annex property. So as many of you may
know Richland Township Has some properties that are currently within the city of Bloomington and that
has raised some questions and It's easy to be misunderstood if this proposal were to go forward
Those properties would not become Ellisville. They would stay within the city of Bloomington. And so
there's some talk on they would still be in that realm of where Richland Township was before. So they
would still have access to the township assistance services that the new town of Ellisville would
Provide and so I there's been some talk and I'm sure mr. Ellis can talk about this somewhat too About
how that will be funded where that money comes from My understanding is the township assistance is going
to be funded out of lit local income tax for the for the first year and so my understanding is that
there in the in the city city of Bloomington those those properties it will continue they'll continue
to receive those those services and Very happy to answer any questions
Oh, and I did just want to stay for the record. I am not currently a resident of Ellisville.
I grew up here. I went to high school here at Edgewood, moved here in 2014, and I moved away, living
in an apartment in Van Buren Township now. But I just wanted to say, just for transparency's sake, that
I won't personally be voting in this upcoming decision. But my heart and my home is here in Ellisville,
here in Richland Township.
Okay. So here's a question came from the floor. Is there a plan as part of this proposed merger to provide
the essential public transportation that rural transit will stop providing as of January 1st, 2027?
I can answer that. Okay, go ahead. Well, Ellisville's traditionally not been in the transit business
and that's not going to change. We don't know for sure just because this reorganization happens that
those in the rural
unit taxing units will lose rural transit. That's still an unknown. But I call out to the county again
to help with this because right now they are taxing 1% to all food and beverages in the town of Ellisville.
And the town of Ellisville gets zero from that. We get zero say in how it's spent. And when we went
up to the state to try to get that changed, the county fought us on it. That funding was supposed to
go for rural transit. And that would have solved the issue.
But the county decided it was more important to do whatever they're doing with it, which that's another
story. But if we want to get this situation solved, then they need to come up with us and sell the state.
Yes, we agree. Ellisville should control what's being collected in Ellisville. Because right now, it
is a bad situation. And the way the law is written, Ellisville could be 10 million people. And Ellisville
gets no say in what that tax goes to.
I think it's time for the county to join us instead of fighting us on that. And I was really disappointed
to see them because they knew what we wanted to use the money for. And they still said, no, we'd prefer
to keep it. Mr. Ellis is correct that the rare organization has nothing to do with the transit services
here. Something needs to be done.
presented to the town council here before, or previously, but we did fund the rural transit for part
of a year, and we've also had the county sort of support us on the rural transit services. Given the
fact that rural transit has helped to grow Ellisville, and Ellisville residents are dependent, some
of them are dependent on rural transit, that to me negates the argument that we don't do transit.
but we need to have a conversation with the Bloomington Transit, which is now undergoing a management
change. And in an earlier life, before I came to Indiana and California, I testified before the California
State Legislature on transit policies and did a lot of research in that area. We have some work to do,
and my hope is that we've got, I know we got a county representative that maybe somebody can have,
Talk some sense into the Bloomington Transit operation and and to get their heads on right so that we
get some support but As mr. Ellis said that's not happening and to be clear one of the reasons he mentions
that the federal funding for urban Areas it goes to the city of Bloomington the Transit Authority right
now. So the funding on that aspect
even for public transportation goes to the city of Bloomington. So we've kind of got two different
governmental entities. We were trying to think of outside the box using the food and beverage tax money,
which would have fully funded that. But yeah, I mean, you're right. The city, I think from what I've
heard from residents, they would prefer to stick with rural transit than have Bloomington come out here.
But we've had conversations with the old management at Bloomington Transit.
And it was a lot more expensive. I think it was over $220,000. We'd have to pay them to bring service
out here where rural transit can do it for $140,000. And the year that we did pay, I think it only came
to $110,000 to $115,000, something like that. So I think rural transit would be the better option for
our residents. And just finding a way to fund that is the $64,000 question.
And you're right, as I said, we're not in the transportation business. I'm not saying we shouldn't be,
because I agree with you, rural transit help with that. But it just, we don't even have a budget set
aside for a dime of that. One reason why Bloomington gets all the money, though, is I think Bloomington
also lays out a lot of money. And Ellisville has not been willing to lay out money for transit. Am I
correct on that, William?
No, it's the Bloomington gets the money because it's the federal designation. They are the Metropolitan
area that receives the federal funding for public transportation They're also reluctant to cooperate
though because they do put a lot of local dollars into they absolutely do and there's no doubt of that
and that's why I really think the food and beverage tax money freed up for us would be a better option because
the city of Bloomington's already subsidizing quite a bit of their bus service and they run a different
type of bus service than what our residents have need. The rural transit services call three days in
advance, sometimes shorter, if they have scheduling, they can pick you up. It's not a dedicated bus
route. I don't think Ellisville's to the point where we need that yet. That may be a discussion in the
future, but not initially. No, we do have some transit coming into Ellisville, though.
Where? Ivy Tech, I think. If Ivy Tech is in Aliceville, we've got a line that goes to Ivy Tech. Yes,
absolutely. I thought you meant currently. I was like, wow, news to me. But part of the problem is you
get about $0.25 out of the fare box for every dollar you spend on transit. And that's one of the dilemmas,
so that it needs to be heavily subsidized. I think I see a question back there.
Another question out here. One of the couple of questions that people asked were what were going to
happen with other public services, things like policing and snow plow and such of those things. So any
thoughts about where we're headed if the merger goes through with those services? There were two questions
that came, that you sent to us earlier. One was, what entity will be responsible for policing Richland
Township areas
that are now outside of Alexville after they are merged into Alexville? And that would be the Alexville
Police Department would be doing the policing that is now done by, I assume, the sheriffs? Yes. By county
agencies. And the other related question was, what entity, and this, William, you can sort of jump in
on, but what entity will be responsible for planning and zoning in Richland Township areas that are
now outside of Alexville
after they emerged into Ellisville. Now that's a little bit more complicated. Both of these details,
though, are covered in the online plan that you can get on the Ellisville website. And the plan is about
45 pages plus appendices. But the plan does sort of say it's the Department of Planning, Planning Commission,
and the Zoning Appeals Board. I think those are the three entities that would be responsible for that
the planning and zoning function in the Richland Township area once it becomes part of Ellisville in
a merger. And to add to that, the intention is to have two different types of, kind of how we have two
different taxing districts, two different zoning districts, rural and urban, because those needs are
different and we have to match the needs that they have. And right now, we can't do anything
And that take any council action on it because that's not our jurisdiction yet. So we have to wait until
We have jurisdiction to do anything But the plan is and talk to the reorganization committee. We would
weigh the least restrictive of zoning from like the county what they currently have to Ellisville like
one of the things that the really draconian slope situations in the
in the incorporated areas that really is a hindrance to growth, in my opinion, Ellitsville doesn't have
that. So in that case, that wouldn't be, that would not apply. And the process to go through it, the
engineering process, all the site reviews that drags out time, I mean, I use this real world example
all the time, that Harmon Farms is annexed into Ellitsville for this reason that I'm talking to in March
of last year.
By July, they broke ground. By July of this year, they have over six properties already, homes built
to be sold. In conversations I've had with the Bloomington Chamber, Ellisville Chamber, Amplify,
and the BEDC, they cannot think of any county project that has moved that quickly. And we all know we
need housing, all different price points. And now's not the time to be timid
building that and Ellis fills up for the challenge I Thought this would be a good opportunity to Talk
a little bit about the policing if you look at the plan it goes it goes into this fairly extensively
What the plan lays out is that currently in the United States the average number of officers per residence
and that's generally measured as per 1,000 residents
That's you have 2.4 officers per 1000 residents here in Ellisville. Currently, it's 2.5. If this plan
were to go through the plan sets out that there will be in between 1.2 and 1.7 officers per 1000 people
that can sound scary that you're below the average, but
As you expand out into a rural area, I think it's no surprise generally that there is less crime as
you go out into the country than there is in big urban areas. Lots more police car calls to a Walmart
than to someone's country farm, right? And so the plan goes into this, and I thought it would be a helpful
comparison to the Monroe County Sheriff's Office, which is currently, I believe, at .87 police officers
per 1,000 residents. So even if this plan were to go forward, you would have a higher ratio of police
officers in the new Ellisville and what was Richland Township than what you currently have as being
protected outside of the Ellisville corporate boundaries. Now, if you were in the rural area, you would
have a higher ratio. This was one of the core things that we worked on.
I was the president of the county residents against the annexation movement in Bloomington a few years
ago. And this is one of the core things that we talked about was the city of Bloomington was not at
all ready to take on 15,000 more people with their police force.
And just from my reading of this and my at my understanding I don't see that as nearly as much of a
problem. The Fraternal Order of Police was against that in Bloomington. I've not seen a statement from
the Elksville police if they've articulated one, but the Bloomington police FOP was against it and I've
not heard that from the Elksville police. I see we have a police officer here in attendance, but Yes,
too. So thank you
So one of the questions that comes up in various ways is just what's going to happen to taxes for people
who would be brought into the new town, the new larger Ellitsville, and not just what will happen, but
who will be deciding what will happen with the taxes? The simple answer to that is who will be deciding
will be the law. I think the law is fairly precise on what
of the consequences are for property tax. Let me state a sort of a personal position, and that is that
I'm not anti-property tax. I'm not one that's gonna be getting up in a meeting and asking for my property
taxes to be lowered. I'm on the other side of the spectrum here. My concern is, are we gonna generate
enough revenue to provide the services we need to provide?
the sort of the urban-rural distinction or the town-rural distinction is one of those. If our police
officers are out in that farmland somewhere in the distance, some distance on the other side of the
current Richland Township, what's gonna happen with the cars that are going 50 to 60 miles an hour on
this 35-mile-an-hour speed limit? Now, my wife lost her car
She had a new Tucson, our Hyundai, I don't wanna say Tucson, I think it's Tucson, which we've tried
to sort of forget. But $46,000 damage on 46. I think part of the problem was, that was before the speed
limit went from 45 to 35. But even today, when I go 35, I'm passed by cars going considerably faster.
I don't and I know some of our police officers and people who are responsible for that are here I don't
my one of my concerns is I what I want to see us lay out enough money to have enough police officers
to control the speed limits in in Alexville because the speed limits are dangerous, you know, I live
on Abigail Lane, which has a speed limit of 20 miles an hour now
I seldom see any cars going down except mine, going down Abigail Lane at 20 miles an hour. They like
to go 40 because that's the fastest time from 46 to the other side of town. So my concern is, given
sort of the distinction in the plan, is are we gonna have enough fiscal effort
And are we going to sort of be sufficiently disciplined to make sure that, for instance, our police
force is doing its urban work while also tending to the rural work? And also, and there are similar
situation, the streets is another area of possible asymmetries between the urban and rural sort of proper
infrastructure.
Yeah, absolutely um the way the the urban rural districts work is Right now all those in Richland Township
are going to be in the rural district And as if you decide to just keep your property don't do anything
don't develop You're going to pay the rural rate, but let's say all of a sudden you say no I want to
move I want to sell this to somebody and they're going to develop it
then that's gonna kick into the urban rate for two reasons. One, to address the concerns that Dr. Perry
has brought up because more urbanized area needs more infrastructure. So we've set the rates that can
actually provide for that infrastructure, including police and roads. The other thing too is, and it's
a great unknown, I just got back from the Association of Indiana Municipalities Conference and I see
a council member here, I'm sure she's been to AIC.
also, and probably the same conversations. What is the state going to do with local income taxes? We
know they gotta do something. So that would be one funding source that we would have. But the urban-rural
mix, by all projections, should be able to handle that. We're also, I just mentioned this, I haven't,
you guys get my debut thought on this, is that the town of Westfield,
They do when you want to build sometimes you have what's called build by right and it means you follow
the planning and zoning. There's nothing that has to go to planning. You can just build. Well, one thing
that Westfield has done very successfully because you don't want growth if it's going to be
our infrastructure burden.
because that hurts your current residents, and they're paying for the new growth. The Harmon Farms growth,
Keehee growth, all the stuff we've done in the last five to six years has not been like that. It has
actually been tax positive, where it actually helps with the taxes with the rest of the residents. So
we need to take some steps to actually make sure the new growth fits that, because we don't just want
to have growth for the sake of growth.
We want to have growth to take some of the burden. I'm a little bit different than Dr. Perry. I am very
concerned about taxes. And one of my goals when I ran in 2019 was to get them lowered. But we also have
to provide basic services. And I don't want to just provide basic services. I want us to provide the
gold standard of services. And to do that, we have to make sure when something's developed that it actually
brings in a specific AV per square foot.
And that formulation, we'll have to figure out. But I think this would be a good time when we start
that UDO process for the rural. And we should put some of those triggers maybe into the urban mix. Because
nobody wants the Wild West. That doesn't help anyone. And our policemen, like I said, two here, they
need the funding. Our road crews, they need the funding. So these are things that we're thinking outside
the box. It's already working in a couple other communities. I mentioned Westfield. I believe another
one that was mentioned was
Noblesville and if you've been up there lately, their growth is pretty good And but they've got a plan
for it and Ellisville's already had a plan for it So I think that we have to make sure that the fiscal
numbers work. We've done it already for in Ellisville So I don't see that changing whether it becomes
part of our UDO or not. I don't know but
That's something I think a conversation I hope the public gets involved to when those hearings on the
UDO starts because if taxes are a concern we need to make sure that is something that's going to drive
those tax dollars down Let me sort of add to that William though because the UDO will according to the
plan needs to be modified. Yeah to accommodate the merged jurisdictions and
As does the comprehensive plan. So right. So there are there are a number of things that are that are
going to happen after the vote is positive for both jurisdictions and The UDO and the comprehensive
plan changes, I think are important components of that
One of the things that I wanted to highlight was, and Mr. Ellis, Mr. Perry have both said this, but
there are two separate tax rates. There's gonna be a rural tax rate, there's gonna be an urban tax rate.
And one of the biggest things that I saw when I was looking at it in terms of what the differences were
was the police protection is going to be paid for by the urban residents. And so I'd be interested how
that came together, but before I pass over to my friend here,
I wanted to just pull out the numbers for four people the current budget for the for the police in 2026
was two million two hundred and seventy thousand four hundred and thirty three dollars and the estimated
operating expenses in the large part this is going to come from the increased number of officers and
I mentioned before that that 1.2 per 1000 that in between 1.2 and 1.7 per 1000 people that else will
be moving to if this plan were to pass that includes hiring 12 new police officers And I believe one
civilian officer also and so that we will see an increase of eight hundred and fourteen thousand dollars
that will need I would say in large part to be hiring those people and
And so one of the questions that I had as I was reviewing the materials was how did it come to the decision?
I know that we wanted to have separate tax rates If you're out in the country pay a little bit less
if you're in the in the city in the in the big city of Elton You're gonna pay a little bit more But
I was curious how we came to the decision to put the put the police costs on that urban tax rate That's
a real good question. First of all
If we could, by Indiana State law, we would do a proportional tax, like a certain percentage of, but
the Indiana State Constitution prevents that. There's a uniformity clause, I think, in there. So the
only option was one set rate. And what would happen? The taxes in Richland Township would skyrocket,
and the taxes in the town would disproportionately drop. And that really is not fair to the rural residents,
because while it ended up happening, if you're a rural resident coming into town,
You're paying for decisions that the last you know 40 50 years of town councils have made from Ellisville
And you've not had a vote in it. So we decided to say what is the increase in costs? That's
this reorganization is going to cost now. There's been some things that you know, they don't it's They're
not paying anything into it. That actually is not true because in one hand
The tax caps in the rural areas are higher. So when we have the general fund, we're going to have LIT,
which is a local income tax, and whatever is replaced with, those are funds that police and associated
things to be paid from. So there is going to be some skin in the game. But to get it proportional, we
couldn't do that. And the rural area, by all data, is not going to take up 50% of our call volume.
and that would be more of an urban thing. So as we build, then that gives a sustainable path instead
of right off the bat saddling the township with decisions they had no say so in. That makes sense? Yes,
thank you. Just for further elaboration on that, I've got a document. I don't know where it came from.
Think it came from the Baker till the analysis and our fiscal impact statement, but It says here that
for tax liability of 200,000 in the township current township. There would be an increase of $332 per
year and for 300,000 residential homestead property 494 for the for the town of Ellisville those numbers are
Similar numbers for 200,000 would be 72 and zero Those I'm at I think I'm at the cap. Yeah, those numbers
Those aren't the certified one sent to the state the one sent to the state was on a $200,000 home $142
for the rural and $66 for the town So those there's a differential. There is a differential of the tax
increase partly because the the township
Taxes are lower farther beneath the cap that that's why you know one of the things if you've seen me
on social media I read I really don't want to talk tax rates and the reason not because I'm afraid of
them, but they're one half of a math equation Just saying what a rate is is not going to tell you what's
going on So I'm like looking in real dollars and that's and those numbers I think were before We got
the certified budget order I believe from for next
this year whatever it was preliminary but with the ones that were sent to the state which will be the
budget for the state or 142 for rural and that and 66 for town as just a notice noted also and the this
se a one of 2025 had two tax components property taxes and local income taxes and the local income taxes
still a wish a dream sort of a
Thing to talk about in the future. It's been pushed to 2030 now. Really? Yep. So it's three pushes now?
Yes. Yeah. She'll try to figure it out, I think. OK. On a totally, or at least possibly totally different
topic, what would happen if a data center wanted to be built, or somebody wanted to build one in Ellensville?
I can I say one thing just and just before we jump to that I think there are some other people with
more to say on that but just a Public service thing and one of the things that we're talking about here
It's so hard to forecast out what exactly the taxes are going to be it's going to be different for every
person and not just because of the value of your home but because different people have we have a constitutional
Caps on what you're allowed to pay on property tax. So for example on your residential home You'll never
ever be taxed more than 1% of your home's assessed value except for a special referendum Which will
include usually things like schools So if you vote yes on a school referendum and go above that 1% there
are caps at 2% and 3% for commercial property So you'll never pay more than 1%
For those of us here that are over 65, and if you've not done this, you have to initiate this yourself.
You must go to the county auditor's office and say, I own my home. I'm over 65 years old. And when you
do that, when you turn in that form,
Your tax bill from year to year will never increase more than 2%. And so if you've not done that, you
really should take the time to go to the county auditor's office and do that. That makes it harder to
do our job of trying to figure out what exactly the revenue that we're going to bring in. But that's
what's best for all of you in your pocketbook. So if you've not done that, I'd be happy to talk you
through that process afterwards. But that's all available to anybody over the age of 65. And likewise,
if you're disabled, there are credits
for you on that so I just wanted to let all of you know that are that are here and watching that that
that's available to you so you should look into those if you fit into those categories but on to the
hot hot moment data center things now everybody's looking at me okay I don't think our current UDO and
planning and zoning will allow data center here's one thing that would just we have a noise ordinance
I think it's a 10 or 11 maybe one of you guys could please what's
11 okay, so one of the complaints with data centers is the noise right there. That's a no-go You know
I have had people suggest that we should do a blanket ban The problem is with doing that data centers.
There's different types. There's a hyperscale They're smaller ones and if you do a blanket ban You may
be missing out on some opportunities that actually be good I don't know what the infrastructure needs
of a data center are and
I have no idea if we would have the water or electric capacity. It would have to depend on the project.
But one of my future town council members, I was just talking to him about one aspect that has touched
on data centers. And I told him I'd support it because he can lead the way. It's Andrew Henry, by the way.
Yeah, he probably has no idea where I'm going with this Okay, yes That we will not sign NDAs on these
things So there'll be no end, you know because the public needs to know if something like this seriously
is being considered But I do also then ask the public don't just take what I'd say is the most use most
recent YouTube video on what data centers are and
It's it's a nuanced thing and what I also said what I see is a lot of people just saying no data centers
but then the same people want lower taxes and those are conflicting things and So nobody's approached
us for one. I can say that with complete Honesty, I don't know if we'd be a good fit for it. I mean
We're not going to seek out one so I but it would have to depend on the project and I
with serious public input for this. It's not something we're just gonna bulldoze the public on. I suppose
I can back you up on that, more or less. It's been an area where I've been involved in a fair amount
for a bunch of different counties. Like, what would be the impact of this or that data center? And what
you said is exactly right.
social media is just flooded with noise on it, and it just makes it very difficult for people to understand
what is true and what is false when the truth is just that there's a lot of options. There's a collateral
amount of, and they can be like lottery tickets to the right community under the right circumstances.
So like, thing that demands rational investigation and not YouTube.
My name's Harry Ferris. I'm one of the rural residents of Richland Township. I'm really disappointed
in this meeting. We spent almost 45 minutes off topic on transportation, on data centers. The referendum
as it's proposed on the ballot hasn't even been read yet. My main concern is
according to Baker tell is I you saw me William yet 6 year meetings yet. My taxes will go up 6% plus
6.7 6.9 I believe 6.9 OK and the towns will go up 4.1% correct. So I'm curious. I'm pleased with the
deputy service that I have I'm pleased with the highways and streets that I have
In the six meetings that I attended, I heard nothing of what was going to be offered to me
by this reorganization, other than an increase in my taxes and my neighbor's taxes. One of my concerns,
and part of this meeting was supposed to be the consequences of this referendum. Well, my two specific
questions, which this kind lady touched on earlier, but we got off topic on it,
For example, snow plow service. How does the town of Ellsfield, if this passes in November, if it's
passed on November 4th, third election, we'd know November 4th, how are they gonna have snow plows and
personnel by January 1, 2027. A, and B, even currently now, the county takes care of mowing the right-of-way
on county property
rural roads. I don't see where in any of the meetings were and any of the planning that Baker Tilley
submitted were funds or planning was allocated for those services just those two services and that's
a concern of mine why am I paying six points nine percent additional taxes for you possibly to provide me
Road services and or mowing services on County property So well one that property would then be Ellisville
so we have the responsibility But to how we get up there one of the things that we've done is we have
a Department of Public Works. We haven't separated Road a lot of people they cross-train so if it means
that Everybody that works for the Department of Public Works that includes roads utilities
and water and sewer We're prepared to equip them with a snow plow They know how to use it. The other
thing we have contingency plans for contractors You're not going to go on cloud because right now there's
certain inventory and you're in Richland Township roads at the county won't apply apply because her
plow because they're not up to spec we're going to take care of first and worry about those other details
later and You know on if the roads up to spec or not. We want to make sure it's plowed and that's my
That's my curiosity. You're going to use existing town people, but you're adding 70 miles of roads and
streets. To your inventory, right, but only a certain care only a certain small portion of those town
people right now work on road and streets so we can scale up pretty fast.
That's one thing. And like I said, our personnel and equipment in two months. No, no, no, we have the
of all the people from the Department of Public Works right now. Only a small portion of them work on
the roads. But if we have a snow event right away before we can get those hires, there's two options.
Like I said, we can call everybody kind of all hands on deck. They know how to do these things. Secondly,
Contractors and we've already done some contact contacting with them town of Sheridan had the same question
and what their solution was They actually what the town of Sheridan Adams Township is who we based a
lot of this from they had subcontractors actually do the rural areas and
Turned out extremely. Well now the road funding I do know and they've probably seen it's not necessarily
directly in the plan It's because road funding predominantly does not come from property taxes. It comes
from the state sales tax or gas tax and Community crossing grants and it follows the road So if those
roads are in our inventory and they're in Ellsville, then the money that currently would go to county
would go to Ellsville so They're funded
So, to the seven member elected town council. Now, according to the meetings that I attended, there'll
be two at large from the rural, two from Alexville, total of seven. Six will be elected, the six will
appoint the seventh member, is my understanding, is that correct? No. All seven will be elected? Yes,
the five will be elected currently
You know, from the town, which we expanded their districts though, like next year, there's three of
us running. Two of the three of them have substantial increases in township areas. So township residents
would qualify to run. And then the two at large will be the top two vote getters for the township board.
So, should this pass November 3rd, and then January 1, it's in effect,
Who is my representative? Since we haven't voted on my at-large members. Well, your at-large members
would be the two top vote-getters from the township board. So you will have voted on them when you vote.
Because the township will still be on the ballot. They've got to plan for both contingencies, whether
it passes or not. But the major doesn't read that, that the township board members will be elected to
the new organization. What doesn't read that? I'm sorry.
The referendum doesn't read that. No, we have specific language we have to use with the state referendum
and approved by the DLGS. We can't go into a lot of details with that, but that's in the plan. So November
3rd, if I vote down for this, how do I vote for township board members?
They're both on the ballot simultaneously. They are. Yes. And if this fails, there's three township
or that is correct. But there's only two on the ballot. No, there's all three. All three. Yes.
That third one. I don't know if it's in the plan. Maybe you guys the plan was to put them on the plan
commission planning and zoning and then choose another one. But but for the town council, which is the
core for everything, the top two vote getters will go to the town.
So what am I getting for my 6.9% tax? What additional benefits and service right? Well, it's more of
a long term and I mean, I know people hate to say that, but what it does give you is right now your
representative. You have one at large. I think she's here tonight and one district representative from
the County Council. They have other townships. They have other
things they have to consider. So a good example on planning and zoning. I don't fault Monroe County
for having the planning and zoning like they do, but is it right for Richland Township? Well, with the
amount of super voluntary annexations we've had, I think the answer is resoundingly no. And so they've
got to factor in not just Richland, they have to factor in Bloomington Township, Perry Township,
you know, all those. So your reps,
Will answer directly to you be your friends and neighbors in the town of Ellisville So the people that
live near your neighbors are the ones and they don't have those other competing interests So in a sense
kind of like a little island where you get more direct control Also from when you say what else you
get? one thing that it It's not a guarantee, but just right now if you call 9-1-1 and you have an emergency
County services
They're phenomenal, okay, I'm not gonna lie to you. They really are. Sheriff does a great job. And we
don't know where that officer is. In other words, because they're patrolling all that unincorporated
area. Here, Ellisville will be the first one to take it. Your dispatch will be here. You've probably
seen Ellisville police sometimes in the township because we have mutual aid agreements. That's not gonna
change. So in situations where police are needed, we'll still have the full resources from Monroe County,
the city of Bloomington, but Ellisville will be your first call, which will be closer. Well,
to that point, I live in the far southeast corner, my two streets, Broadway and Grand Avenue,
and west third, approximately 96 houses, residences. I'm not hopeful for a reasonable response time
for Ellisville police.
So that far southeast corner. In an emergency, I'm not sure how it works with mutual aid. That's something
I'm not really an expert on. And Shannon, you can just nod. In mutual aid, if there's an emergency,
is it the closest responding officer? In an emergency, an officer, if they're close, they're going to
respond. OK. But if you just have somebody that's spray painted your lawn or something like that,
That may be something that takes a little bit understand right. But yeah, so that that would be that
but and. There. How much did you say your taxes will go according to Baker Tilly's I have the report
six point use. Yeah, 6.9% I thought it was six, but I don't have it. Yeah, that's fine. Okay, 6.9, but
I think you're correct. Yeah, that's fine. Well, one thing that and I know there's been some controversy
over this, but that
There's two the options on the ballot. There's one option about yes or no for that But let me tell everybody
what happens if no kicks in if no wins the day then the fire territory that we've that was passed back
in March between the township and The town of Ellisville to keep our same fire protection. We've had
for 80 years now that kicks in and what that would end up doing your taxes will be a lot higher with
a no vote because Lisa
I've asked you for your data, you've refused to present it. So... Did I state otherwise? I did not.
This is not a debate also, and I'm talking to him. Okay? I did not say your taxes won't go up. I said
they'll go up higher. Yes, because the fire territory kicks in.
Would you... huh? Again, half a math equation. There's property tax caps are different, and you're not
spread out. Yes.
but then they don't have it spread out with as many people. So their actual dollar of increase will
be higher. So Ralph, can we get some control on this, please? I don't mind talking about this if she
wants to come to here. And I've asked her, because we've had this Facebook conversation numerous times
to produce the data where she says that I'm incorrect on this. She has refused. And this is what I even
talk about with data center misinformation. We have some people that live on social media that simply
think they can post something
and have somebody with data and refute that thing and just say uh-uh. And that is something as a town
council and it infuriates me because people are gonna see that and make the bad decision on that because
with that fire protection rate, you're still paying the township tax rate too. That's the other factor
that's not being considered too. So on that $200,000 home example, if you vote yes in the rural township,
it's about $115. A no vote would be about $102.
The rates are different, but it's because with a yes vote, that is spread out over both the urban and
the rural on everything but police and CUMCAP. So the individual taxpayers more. Nobody pays the bills
in rate. They pay it in actual dollars.
That is one of the things I think government has done poorly for their residents and constituents They
talk rate all the time and think they've cut the rate and declare victory and say that we've lowered
taxes Well if assessments go up more than you've cut the rate You've actually raised taxes and we know
what the rates are in the last six years We have been cognizant of what the actual dollar tax impact
is. I don't know any other government unit that does that but we do that and
And so, I'm not upset at you, I just want you to... Yeah. I can sense the data, the methodology, everything.
Correct. No, 192. No, it's 192. Yes. That's not the fire district, the fire territory.
Because if this fails well if it passes the the fire is lumped into the overall rate for everybody But
if this fails the fire rate doesn't have that offset for any of the other funds That is correct correct
Yes Correct I'm not sure what the percentage would be
for the fire. I have to evaluate whether the 115 versus the 192 versus the 6.9% on my actual property,
which is lower or higher. That's correct. Just dollar amount. But other than the fire district, there's
a different mass. So I'm penalized
Right you still have fire server and to protect that because the option if we didn't do that would be
for the county to put in a fire district which is a lot higher we're looking at about almost $500 for
what they would do so we've seen that with Bean Blossom it could be higher for Richland I know what
you mean. Yeah, I understand Yeah
I completely understand. And if anyone wants to send me their particular assessed value, I can look
up, it's public information, I can let you know to the penny what your tax estimation is. Okay. Awesome.
You can go ahead and ask your question and I'll lump it in if I can.
I was glad to hear data centers are not gonna happen, because with those non-disclosure agreements,
it happens before anybody knows about it. The speed enforcement, I'm a grandmother who babysits on Heart
Street Road. Ellisville, you could make money all day long just having people on Heart Street Road.
It's the highway of death.
I mean, it's absolutely unbelievable the traffic that flies up and down that road and the speeds. But
my question, Mr. Perry, the zoning, I didn't understand how this would affect zoning. Are we still under
the county zoning ordinance? Would it still go to the county board of zoning appeal? For planning and
zoning, I'm confused how this would affect it. William can probably answer this better than I can, but
Once Richland Township becomes part of Ellitsville, it will be covered by the Ellitsville Planning Commission
and Ellitsville Board of Zoning Appeals, and the Ellitsville Planning Department. And so, sort of the
responsible agents, the governmental agents, will be appointed by, among others, the town councilors.
And the seven people that were referred to earlier would be appointing the members of the Planning Commission
like oh Yes, yeah No, yeah, we have a Planning Commission. That's all right. We have a Planning Commission
in a bza and So it would it would just default to us and we have our own building and permitting so
I think the only thing we don't do is health department septic inspections and
Now, that reinforces a point William was making, and that is that the sort of control will come closer
to individuals in the township. And that would be, for some people, probably a plus, I suspect, in terms
of sort of controlling the growth and the like, and having some influence on that. Although, again,
then you'd still have to be active locally, if not in the county at the town level.
Okay, I think we've made very clear that where we live and how we preserve it and present protect it
for future Generations is an important topic. There are lots of questions to go on here Somebody suggested
we should read the ordinance and the ordinance just I mean the referendum question Which basically says
there's this proposal are you for it or against it? so if you want to dig down and find out what's actually
going on and
Forums like this, talking with other people who are knowledgeable about the topic is a good way to do
it. I thank so much to CATS for recording this because there are lots of people who are interested and
wouldn't get here on their own.
Special thanks also to our panelists. All four of you were wonderful and very helpful in keeping things
going and informative. And just remember that there is an election on November 3rd where this referendum
question will be on the ballot. Early voting starts on Tuesday, October 6.
Thank you, Lee. Thank you.