- So thank you for coming. This idea began from multiple perspectives. And one was a quote from a woman
- that you may have seen in the paper named Crystal Banks, who talks about how she experienced enormous
- shame being homeless. And she didn't want to tell anybody. And after the experience of feeling enormous
- care from the community for her and eventually getting out of homelessness,
- She said that she was humbled by that experience and now she's not afraid to tell people anymore that
- she was homeless. She feels like she can just tell them and she felt empowered by the people and the
- care that she experienced. And the other is a statue I saw recently that's been kind of controversial
- and making the rounds and it's a statue of a man on a bench
- covered in a blanket and then he has nails in his feet and it's called homeless Jesus and it and it's
- made it stirred some controversy and and I think also empathy for people and so our purpose isn't necessarily
- creating a religious object of art but but but that's kind of the inspiration can we create a piece
- of art that that will turn people's hearts
- you know, will turn people's minds and help them start thinking about, thinking about homelessness
- differently. More than half of the people who are homeless right now are families with dependent children,
- you know, and we don't, and when people talk about homelessness, that's not what they think, despite
- that's the majority of people who are homeless in our community. When, you know, something like 10%
- are veterans and 30% of,
- the rest are mentally ill. And so it's, you know, when you start to look at it from that place and that
- perspective, it defies the prejudice that we see. And, and hopefully this can be something to help us
- see as a community, see things a little differently and see the, and treat people a little differently.
- You know, that's the, the inherent nature of prejudice is taking, is taking the,
- you know, the opinion of a few and applying it to a group as a whole. And certainly some of the people
- who we know are experiencing homelessness, their difficulties are such that some people consider them
- inconvenient in our community or worse. And yet, you know, homelessness is so much bigger
- and people who are experiencing that sense of being perceived as inconvenient need our empathy and care
- too. So this is an attempt to, one attempt of many to kind of create something beautiful and inspiring
- and hopefully something that builds empathy and care. This is a one of three
- public sessions that we're going to have around this. We've had one already at the project school with
- children at the project school and this is the second one and we're gonna have a third one at Shalom
- Center, specifically targeting people who are homeless there so that we get a really full perspective.
- So I'm glad that you've come and can offer your part in today. Anything else you want me to say before
- we pass it off to you?
- Yeah, we have a project that we that we call we're calling them more than homeless project and the and
- the there's you know started with a Facebook page and and then up we had a big public event and this
- is one of the first things to emerge out of that event. The other thing that's emerging very quickly
- out of that event also is attempting to get housing status added to the anti
- anti-discrimination clause, the Bloomington Human Rights Ordinance. So those two things have come quickly
- out of that process, and we think there'll be a lot more. So we have a tentative theme or title, which
- is more than homeless. Do you want me to talk about that a little bit?
- Yeah, that's why I said tentative, yeah. Because we don't know what it's going to be called, ultimately.
- But that's the concept or the theme. And that's the heart of it, is to help people see people who are
- homeless as more, to help build that sense of empathy, to recognize the humanity of people. I mean,
- again, prejudice is built on objectifying.
- seeing people as a problem rather than as people. And that's another thing we want to try and move people
- beyond is to help them move from that sense of problem to person. And so all those ideas are just doing
- in my mind. The kids did an awesome job when I got to sit with them and I got their feedback. And so
- I'm really looking forward to hearing what you guys want to offer too.
- So they need the mic, Joe, for that. So if you want, I know it's a little awkward, but. Stage fright.
- Not really, but should I be here or there? There? Okay. What I'm gonna do is just spend five minutes
- to talk about the process so you understand what these ideas, how they're gonna be generated into an
- actual work of art of some sort. I have no idea what it is.
- which is always great. I mean, it's really hard not to think about it, so I, you know, it's like, blah,
- blah, blah. What I've learned early in the process of doing this, I've been doing it for 20 years, is
- that I had a kid come up with me, up to me in a school, and he said, Mr. Lamontillo, I don't see my
- art anywhere. And I said to him, I said, you know, I try to use everybody's art, and I didn't use your
- art, and I felt terrible.
- I mean, it's like, ooh. So I developed this. I mean, that was a problem. So this is what feeds me as
- an artist. You have a problem, you try to solve it creatively. And I think that's what happened. So
- I create these project books. And what they are, I collect all the ideas, all the art that's generated,
- and I put them in this book. And what I do in terms as a designer or a facilitator for an art project
- is I look at all the ideas and I choose as many as I can to make them work. It's kind of like I become
- a magnet and all these other little bits and pieces come together somehow. It's amazing. It's a very
- intuitive process for me because I don't know how they're going to fit together. But when I know it's
- done, I feel whole. I feel it just
- I feel wonderful about it. I usually never give somebody two ideas. That's counterintuitive. You give
- them one idea to look at because I put all my energy into that. Because if they choose the one I didn't
- have as much as this, I'm not going to feel good about that. So I want to feel good about what I do.
- And so I put all my energy into that. And that's pretty much how it works in terms of taking your ideas
- and looking at them and trying to
- see how they're interrelated, how they connect. Because I believe everything connects. That's the way
- I look at the world. Everything's symbolic. It has a lot more depth than what you see. It's just beautiful.
- What else can I say? For this project, usually again, I don't know beforehand what materials we're going
- to use. But because we want to do this as a
- community project that has to do with the homeless, I thought it would be really good to make it out
- of recycled materials as much as possible because we want to take something that's a problem and make
- it beautiful. And so we're going to take aluminum and the other part of it is keep the maintenance down.
- And I also try to make it inclusive. So I try to think about how we can get many people involved
- even from far away distance, they can mail me a license plate or something. So these are the sort of
- things that are kind of germinating in my brain right now. So I told people at Scrapyard, save license
- plates, save streets of science. And since I've been working for many years, they're very kind and generous,
- and they're putting things aside for me. But again, that may change. I don't know. I mean, it's really
- going to depend on your ideas.
- But when it comes down to actual working, I'm going to be on the street because I really believe the
- street's my studio. It invites everybody to see it and to participate. Again, it's about process. It's
- not about magic. This is not magic. This is about participation and stepping forward and asking questions.
- I try to make myself, if I put myself in a room,
- you can easily not see me and I don't exist, you know, like that tree in the forest, you know. I want
- to be a tree that you see right in front of you and you, you, I say you can come by, learn a new skill
- if you like. I'm sure we're going to do a number of them and be part of it, you know, be part of the solution.
- And that's the sort of generated art that I try to do. And you might even have a better idea in the
- midst of what we're doing, and we'll change it. I mean, if it's something that really works. So I try
- to be as open as possible. So with that, I'll just say, are there any questions at this point? Where
- is it going to be sited? We've had discussions about it. I mean, a primary location is going to be right
- in front of us.
- on the Walnut Street, so it's a real nice visual. We've also talked about the concept, and we'll see
- if that actually ends up with the idea of having an object that's movable, with the idea of placing
- it elsewhere, but also the idea that homelessness is a moving thing. People are almost constantly asked
- to move. And so there's actually some artistic quality to that possibility.
- I mean, I think about the WFHB dog and how they use that in front of their location and then and it
- appears in a parade or it appears at an event. And this might be a good thing for Shalom. I don't know.
- I mean, that's just not. Yes.
- It can be. It really can be. I just don't. I just made those suggestions as a starter. And yes. I mean,
- I really can. I made several sculptures out of found objects. I just went and printed some, if you want
- to see just examples. All of my sculptures are movable. Oh, good. They end up being sort of like creatures
- or monsters or toys. This is kind of a variety. Old vacuum cleaners, exercise bike, weed eaters, chair.
- This is great.
- Are you a local artist here? Yeah, I'm here. OK, good. I just came down from Indianapolis about a year
- ago. Daryl. Daryl? Joe Lamantia. Nice to meet you. You too. In fact, I like working with artists. So
- this is a good thing. Yes, ma'am? A suggestion that I gave a while back to solve homelessness. Take
- an apartment complex. You have one that houses a few. It's new.
- but take a large complex and put the homeless in and off the street. Let them do volunteer work in the
- community to learn job skills and save the community money and pay for their bed. And then put job links
- and the agencies in the building. And when they learn job skills, job links can give them employment.
- And it would help the community out.
- while helping themselves. OK, from what I hear, I'm going to put job skills. Because I don't know what
- that means. I mean, see, this is a good thing. Having a large apartment complex to put them in to give
- them sleeping beds, not full-size apartments, but sleeping beds, bunk beds. Beds? I like the word beds.
- Joe, I wonder if it's possible also to address the materials to you. So what keeps coming to my mind
- is whatever it is, what it's made out of, can it be made out of materials that suggest home? So like
- silverware or, you know, what else? Old sinks or things that are, that are, that mean home, you know, that are,
- Welcome to the military. Yeah, I mean, everybody's like, welcome home. So like, yeah, silverware, and
- welcome mats, and things like that. That's really interesting. Washing machines. Yeah. That's fascinating.
- Yeah, pots and pans. Yeah, dishes. Yeah, china. Old china. Pieces of china. Sorry. I'm going too fast
- here. Yeah, that's awesome. I was going to say it.
- That's right, you got it. You did, that's right, you got it.
- aware of what it means to be honest, or is it a concept that's more like a hand up versus a hand out?
- You know, it seems to me... I was thinking the same thing. One of those is going to make the thing totally
- different. So what does more than help? Say more about what more than help means. Well, I mean, the
- concept is to stir a change of heart. Okay, I didn't want you to say that.
- So to look at something and feel, to transcend the stereotype of homelessness. Well, I think Crystal
- said it in her book. And it was something to do with, nobody takes the time to hear my story. Something
- about a story. And that, sort of going back to what Tom said, there's a way of looking at homelessness
- that is the reality of it. Just like mental illness, there's a reality to that.
- and at any given time people are homeless. So are we trying to, we don't know what we're trying to do.
- But there's a story there of people who are homeless. And then the next story is their redemption from
- that or another life after that. And there's sort of like a tension there
- I think I'm concerned about is that there's a kind of deficit thinking that always goes on, that there's
- something wrong with these women. And that's what you were saying, I think. Is there a way to celebrate
- something that's not a deficit? Yeah, and I think that represents something that you said early on that
- I really agree with. And that is that there is a human web of inclusion. And that we were all a part
- of this. We're all connected. So somehow demonstrating that connectivity
- that what happens to this person really does make a difference to me, ultimately. And people frame that
- in different ways. But I think that notion of human web of inclusion and that we're part of a caring
- community. And that means at certain points in time, I'm a caregiver. But at other points in time, I'm
- a care receiver. And that's part of all of our lives.
- And so that's helped me, what helps connect us. And I'm sorry, I have to leave, but I have one other
- idea that I wanted to share, and that's to make it responsive to multiple senses. So, okay, it's gonna
- be visual, obviously, but is it something that people could touch and feel
- And that there's an aspect of that. And maybe there's even something that if it's outside, there are
- wind chimes or something that makes pleasant noise. Not horrible noise, but soothing kind of noise to
- appeal to the hearing as well. So I just wanted to throw those out. And I really apologize that I have
- to. Sound touch.
- Just make it interactive. Yeah, interactive would be great. Motion. Yeah, motion. If it's something
- like a call, there won't be illusions. So the web of inclusion and connectedness and everything makes
- me think of something for us that is something that I think most people are not aware of, which is that
- the homeless people or the homeless in our community
- have families and are parts of families, and they have children, whether they're grown up or not, and
- that they are a family. The people who come to Shalom are a family of sorts. And so I keep thinking
- that there has to be some way of showing familyness, community and familyness, and the range
- of- Multi-generation. Yeah, and the fact that the
- Families are both a strength for some of these people and a weakness, and that they're also problematic.
- They've been estranged from their families. And in some cases, that's really dramatically affected their
- lives. So the significance of family in the homeless community, and that's a way of seeing homeless
- people who are experiencing homelessness as not as just
- discrete individuals. You know, they're not just that guy and that woman. I mean, there are parts of
- communities and families, too. Yes, ma'am. Long ago, Richard Hospital had Central State, which was a
- complex of apartment buildings. They put all the talent homeless in, and then they helped them get jobs
- from there and back out into society and their own apartment.
- The only thing they didn't do that my new idea is volunteer work in the community to learn job skills.
- But it worked for them and it can work down here. I have a thought about the motion interactive
- Do you want me to write? Do you want me to write to you? So my idea before I do this is that I wonder
- if it's possible to make part of it be movable and part of it be... Just say what you want. Yeah, so
- this is what I was thinking about when you said about making it movable. It seems like part of it has
- to stay and part of it has to go. Like if you could have a part of it that was removable,
- then it kind of suggests like how homelessness breaks up things, you know, and how you have to move
- around between come back to, and that's kind of like, Shalom is really a place that the people in the
- community come back to all the time. Okay, just to surmise that, that's great. Okay. Revolving door,
- that's another way of saying it, revolving door.
- Yeah, go ahead. Oh, I think the sense of community is important. It goes both ways. For Bloomington
- to feel community and good for homeless, but also homeless to understand that they have a responsibility
- in the communities where they are living. And I think a lot of people have been impacted, some negatively,
- by homeless people.
- I think it would be good if somehow the homeless could get a sense of community themselves from this
- sculpture. Maybe work on it or portray the idea of not just us accepting the homeless, but also the
- homeless accepting that they're in a community and they have responsibility to their neighbors. And
- I think that would be valuable and I think
- go both ways, and it would build a lot for what I think that we're trying to accomplish. I don't know
- how you can portray that through pieces of art, but maybe there's a process, or I'm not sure. I mean,
- that is the sort of process that I do by making it inclusive. So inviting the people at Shalom as well,
- as well as other organizations that help people who are in need to participate. They're welcome. To
- make it really clear that people are welcome to, and they don't have to have a skill. They can just,
- the willingness is so important. I try to say that over and over again. Don't let a skill keep you away.
- You can even just watch. Everyone has that skill.
- And from that, you're participating by watching. And then from that, you look forward and maybe learning
- something in terms of a skill and applying it with the project. Yes? Yeah, right on that one, too. I
- thought maybe this one turns around like it doesn't. Oh, like it doesn't? No, it doesn't. Would have
- been nice.
- Yeah, just like, you know, find something for each individual homeless person that goes to the community.
- They don't have to be homeless, but just if they want to be part of it, just go find something interesting
- that they would feel like would be part of all these things we're talking about. Right. Make it work.
- Go out and find something.
- talked about with the kids, which I thought was really interesting, is they came up with images. We
- actually had them write images and draw images. And so one of the images that they came up with was
- playing with the idea of walking in another person's shoes. And maybe even actually having shoes of
- different kinds that people could literally step into, which I just thought was so interesting.
- stirred me, too, is just that idea of how many, like the web of inclusion, I think, kind of brings it,
- too. It's like, what are these metaphors that we have in our society for how we empathize with each
- other? And that's a classic one, that of walking a mile in someone else's shoes. And it just made me
- think, what else is out there that symbolically helps us think about other people?
- like sharing the load or shoulder to cry on. It's a metaphoric dialogue. I mean, I personally think
- you can't walk in anybody's shoes, but that's another story. But I mean, one way you learn about someone
- else is you engage in a conversation with them, a genuine conversation. And I don't know if that can
- be depicted. I'm not a nerd. Well, you made me think of this, that you can become homeless by a natural
- event. Sure. Tornado.
- flooding. How many people have, you know, have homes that were, and they have jobs, but suddenly something
- happens and it's just taken away from them. And maybe the interim, maybe, you know, whatever it is,
- even though they witnessed maybe being with cousins or friends for whatever time it takes for them to
- rebuild their homes, or resettle, they're homeless. Yeah, and I wish there was a way to depict that
- these people aren't, as Forrest, you mentioned earlier, the type of people that we, that many people
- might envision as being homeless, that they are parents with children and they are, you know, just like
- you and me, you know, and because of an event of some kind. And I think that's the hardest for people to
- recognize that they're like you and me. That's why it's hard to talk about. That's why it becomes a
- stigma, because we can't even imagine that we could be in that place. Yes. Yes. Yeah, and I don't know,
- again, I'm not an artist, but it would be wonderful to, just bouncing on what Sheri said, to have a
- piece of art that somehow evades people's fear, because I think the
- The part of the problem in the dialogue is that people are afraid and they're so there because it's
- the unknown and because they're afraid that they're afraid of everything That's why you said about a
- stigma and mental illness is a stigma homelessness is a stigma and it's very hard just like you said
- you feel like
- might be offending somebody by giving them a meal or we don't know what to do. And consequently, so
- many people just turn away because they just don't know what to do. Isn't it strange? I mean, to have
- that feeling like you see somebody there and you just want to give them some food. I had some person
- look at me and say, and I wasn't sure what they said, but it's like maybe there wasn't enough money
- I gave them or something. And I thought, that's another whole
- dimension itself, I insulted that person by, you know, like gave him whatever change I had in my pocket.
- That could be an insult. But don't think of it as that. I just want to give. Right. And so that is a
- very strange sort of place to be. It's real tension. It really is.
- Or it's you and me, us and them, that sort of thing instead of we? Yeah. That's why I like this gentleman
- just talking about the community thing. Because it's so much othering these people. They're over there.
- They're other than we are. But they're not. They're the same as we are. They just are in bad shape in
- some particular set of circumstances. They're what the grace of God does on the rest of us. So if you
- can do what he's talking about, if you
- this sense of coming together, or mutual responsibility, or dialogue, or web, or whatever. Those are,
- you know, if I were to kind of sort through these, there's a lot of them around that idea. I think that
- would be a very cool idea. I don't know, you're good at this stuff. I don't know if you ever heard of
- Martha Beck. She's like a life coaching. She says that when she works with people in life coaching,
- she talks about
- the fear of being a bag lady. One of the greatest fears that, in this case she was speaking about women
- that she was working with, they have is this terror that one day they would be a bag lady, so as she
- put it. And so there is this kind of massive fear that I think all of us on some deep level are terrified
- of becoming homeless. That's like one of the worst things that could happen to us and one of the scariest
- things that could happen to us.
- And so it does break down that conversation. If you find them uncomfortable in that place of fear, you
- don't want to have anything to do with it because it's terrifying. And I think that goes back to the
- community family thing. I mean, what underlies part of that fear is what becoming the back lady means
- is that you're alone and you're abandoned and there's no one
- that you can turn to for help or support. Your community is gone. Your family is gone. And so it ties
- back into that. That's part of the fear. And I always look at fear this way. Fear is you and the distance
- between it. And so you think by not looking at it, whatever it is, or not getting close to it, or walking
- away from it,
- You're going to be OK, but you're putting more distance. And by more distance, you have more fear. And
- vulnerability. It's an axiom or I don't know what the word is, but it's a reverse of what you think.
- Well, the same with being vulnerable. Being vulnerable suggests that there's some weakness on your part
- or the other person's part to engage. And yet, vulnerability suggests that
- That's what can open the door to connectivity, is allowing yourself to sort of let go of that fear and
- being vulnerable enough to speak truth. Well, it's been my experience over this 20 years to just say
- this, that when I approach people in schools or in communities to do projects, I can't tell you the
- feeling I get of people wanting to give.
- I think it's a human nature to give, to really give on oneself. I know. It's easy to give the money,
- and it's easy to give towards an organization that helps people that were not comfortable being among.
- But what would it mean for us if we became vulnerable enough to say, you know, I'm going to meet these
- people face to face. I want them to meet me face to face. And what kind of change would occur
- We interact it that way. Obviously, we need people with pockets to give towards infrastructure for helping
- people who are the most vulnerable. But if we change that around to doing more interaction. Maybe part
- of the fear is just the emotionalness of it all.
- of how, I mean, compassion, how, I mean, you can just cry because the story is so sad, or you get really
- angry because it's so sad, or that it's not right, it's not, you know, all the injustice. I mean, there's
- a lot about stories that, you know, I'm hoping with this project that we have these other elements of
- maybe even documenting people's stories
- and maybe even using photographs to some extent. Yes. Just embellishing. Editing. Oh, I meant. Sorry.
- Occupational hazards. Well, I didn't mean my story, but I was the third person. My story and their story.
- Yep, got it.
- I don't know how long it would take us to make something, but as an artist you probably appreciate the
- process of making art is pretty much the best part to me. It is. The actual process. The finished product.
- That's right. That's always nice to move on to something. So during the process we can incorporate all
- the personal stories or
- Right. I mean, because this is a BCAT and this is a community radio station, I just want to invite people
- to think about making this project something that they might want to do as a documentary. Students,
- professionals. It's all about collaboration. It's all about coming together and making these decisions.
- When I first moved here,
- One of the things I felt was that I don't have to be New York to live to be an artist. I can be right
- here and I can do my art. And people are going to come from New York to see that. Just turn the table.
- You make here where you live, you're a poet. And make it your community. And it was a real interesting
- sort of thought.
- I wonder if you could have a conversation back here too.
- I wonder if you can embed within whatever art piece it is some excerpts of some stories that are woven
- through. You know, just like we see on any kind of statues, you know, there are quotes, there are sayings
- from their writings on the wall, whatever. You know, it's their story and maybe excerpts of that woven
- throughout. The brain interactors.
- where you can write on it and stuff. Were there inscriptions on this? I can't remember. I don't know
- whether it was both of them. There were just notes with things you could write. But adding an interactive
- component, that could be ongoing. I mean, writing on the wall is one of the best examples
- Project Joe did years ago, and the difficulty with that is that it's not, you have to monitor it, but
- it could be a piece of. But it was also movable. It was movable. And actually, when I didn't monitor
- it, I mean, that was, things happen which are just perfect. Just perfect. But it could be an educational
- component like that. Maybe there's a part of it that's walking in and out.
- interact with it. Yeah, right. This was a project Joe did that asked, what is democracy? And then people
- just went crazy. Sherry was, she was the head of that. Is there a time that this is going to be achieved?
- Do you mean a time in terms started at least? I'm hoping.
- As I said in the paper, I'm hoping that by the end of this month, hopefully we can start. But that might
- be a little early. I don't know. We'll see. But within the next, I'd say the next four weeks, we should
- start. And I'm thinking it'll take, it's always hard to gauge this, but anywhere from two to eight weeks,
- or even 10 weeks, depending on the complexity.
- and the involvement that's needed to do something like this, whatever it is. But we have two great places
- that we're going to work. I didn't mention that. One would be in front of WFHB as a site. That won't
- be as long because they're going to do some construction there. So I have to be about the end of July
- for that site. And then the other site will be at Rhinos. And both sites, of course, I want it to be
- in the city and have visibility. And if we have to move again, possibly at the site for Shalom, which
- is across the way. But I wanted it as much central as possible so people could see what's going on.
- And put it in places that have importance, like WFHB Community Radio, Rhinos, that's a teenage club.
- for kids, and it's such an important asset to the community. So that's the sort of sights we're looking
- at. So it won't have to be mobile? Well, it will be mobile in that sense. Yeah, it will move. It might
- require some heavy equipment to move it. But we have that taken care of.
- You can build that guitar, you can build it. Yeah, exactly. Well, the city was helpful in that. Came
- with a forklift, put it on the thing. Actually, we have Bloomington Crane who's going to help. If we
- have to lift it, whatever it is, and mount it or something, they're going to do that. We also have an
- architect and engineer who will help to make sure that what we do is stable enough. I always like to
- have that in a project.
- just so that people's minds are at ease about the integrity. I had a school where a maintenance person
- came up and said, what are you doing here? I worked with a utility company. They were going to set the
- poles. They used their nuts and bolts. Couldn't get any better, and he backed off. But it was just the
- fact that it's so important to work with people who
- are professional, as well as working people who aren't professional, to get that balance. And that's
- what it's all about, is having a balance when you do an art project or any project, so that everybody
- has input. So what is the, are we gonna brainstorm actual shapes or things over this? Well, you can
- submit some shapes and drawings, yeah, that's fine. I just wondered. Of course. Yeah, I'd be really
- curious if people
- have images that pop into their head that when you think about this, what are the pictures that come
- to you if you're a pictured kind of person? Well, I think of obviously the kitchen table or the table,
- which of course has already been done down at the farmer's market, the banquet table. But when you think
- of engaging and people sitting around the table, I mean, that has been sort of the central place
- many times for people to engage. It's just around food. And when I think of the work I've done,
- you know, at the community kitchen over the years, I mean, that's where people come and eat. And,
- you know, we as I don't think that that crosses every barrier, sitting at a table and eating and enjoying
- conversation. Sitting, sitting.
- Do you know what I mean? Totally. In fact, let me just say as an artist, when I take your thought of,
- just so you understand, when I say, when you say that, even though Dale did a great piece, the kitchen
- table, isn't that you can't do another kitchen table, but that's not, I know that's not what you mean,
- the essence of it. Yeah, it's the meaning behind it. So he's taking that essence and how that can connect
- with something else and there you are.
- thinking about that, I imagine two people talking to each other. One is situated in this kind of environment
- where there are multiple license plates, and it's conveying the image of, I live in multiple places,
- I'm mobile, and the environment of the other person conveys stability, and they're both talking about
- something.
- almost like a dinner with Andre. Sort of a sadness conversation. But you have to have this environment
- situation to understand something about the nature of their conversation. So I'm saying. And then when
- we put it all together, what are the common elements then that really there are no differences between
- the two? Right. I mean, when you think about food, you think about how to prepare food.
- You have objects, you have things like spices. And all those things have symbolism. You have a spice
- thing filled with something else. More meaning to it. I mean, it's sort of playfulness. And I think
- that homeless can relate to that. I mean, there's something in their lives that they can remember about
- that and relate to.
- When I think of the visuals of the images, like Tom, I think of people. That's what we're talking about.
- We're talking about people. So I don't know. It just comes to mind. I keep thinking of families. Yeah,
- an image of a family comes to mind. An image of a veteran comes to my mind a lot, too. Yeah, different
- types of people sitting around that kitchen table. Very different. Or what makes up a family.
- the veteran with his hat on with all of his, you know, we were at Tom's Mother's at Autumn Hills for
- people with dementia. Last night we were at a dinner there and a man, you know, in his 80s, you know,
- I was talking with him, trying to talk with him, but he had his veteran's hat on from World War II and
- he must have had 30 silver buttons on his hat. You know, you just think a veteran
- there are so many people who are vulnerable and who could be depicted around a table. Right. There's
- a lot of things that make somebody homeless or without a home, or without a home. Homeless,
- without a home. That could mean a lot of different things, without a home. Yeah, that's true. I mean,
- you could be homeless and have a room. It's almost like, well,
- That is a house, isn't it, or something? But you're isolated. One of the things that we've been playing
- with the tagline for the center, and it's for all who seek home. It emphasizes one of the things we
- do is homelessness, but it also emphasizes we do a lot more than homelessness. It's that seeking of
- home, which is bigger.
- And I don't know how you put that into an image, but I think that's what you're kind of talking about.
- Right. I mean, people have houses. But is that your home? Yeah. There's a difference between a house
- and a home. Yeah, exactly. So that's a distinction I make for myself. This is my home. It's not just
- somewhere I stay. Yeah, there's meaning behind it. Right. So it's going to be challenging.
- And I think it's going to be exciting in that challenge. I'm sorry. Please. Something simplistic that
- flashed into my mind as I read on your Facebook inviting everyone to come to this brainstorming event,
- I got a flash of a spiral. Just very simple, but especially not just with veterans, but with people
- that experience homelessness, how fast someone can experience homelessness.
- So like you said, with a natural event, or such as mental illness, how fast you can spiral into homelessness.
- It can happen faster than I think a lot of people realize. So I just see a spiral person. I think it's
- simple with a lot of them, I guess. My in-laws are moving. They've moved. And now we're dealing with
- their home.
- They took some stuff they want and some other stuff they don't want. And I'm just experiencing stuff.
- And how does stuff define who we are? My stuff, your junk, my treasure, it's just stuff. Objects,
- you know, objects. I mean, they have stories. I guess objects have stories. But that's why this stuff really
- resonates with because objects do tell stories. And when you look at an object, you look at a bed or
- a fork, you have a story that comes to your mind. Your bed, your fork, your room, your table. I mean,
- as an artist, I'm just going to say all this stuff here. All these ideas and just one second.
- There's a lot. I mean, I wouldn't have to.
- We just did this and be enough. Oh, yeah. I was wondering if there would be perhaps two projects, one
- for encourage law and the other one for use in schools. And I'm just looking at it as part of a teaching
- project. I'm looking at the statement there walking
- And just thinking in terms of a school environment, could you create such a piece that had all these
- different shoes and that as part of the education for homelessness in schools, you would have people
- give seven other people shoes like this and then imagine
- My five-year-old, yesterday I was talking to him about homelessness, and I said, what do you think that
- is? And he said, so he thought about it for a minute, and he's just getting to the point where he has
- these ideas. And it's so fascinating.
- He doesn't have the fear that you can develop an adulthood. So I said, what do you think to be homeless?
- Do you think they have a home? Do they have a home or do they not? And he said, I don't think they have
- a home. And I said, well, what do you think we can do for these people? And he goes, well, he goes,
- well, what do you do? And I said, well, sometimes you try to do service volunteering. Maybe you feed
- them. Maybe you can give them money for food or things like that. He's like, oh, well, if you don't
- have money, you can give them a hug.
- And I said, that's true. We can. And he said, well, can't we share our home? And I love that innocence.
- I think that's wonderful to tap into that. Because as adults, we develop that fear of association. As
- a five-year-old, he doesn't know what reputation is. He doesn't have any of those things. So he's like,
- well, why can't you share your home with these people? If they don't have one, give them one type thing.
- I think that innocence is great to tap into.
- I mean, going with this with education, being able to help be a force of change, having young children
- come up with ideas and come up with sayings and come up with visuals, that could be very powerful. Right.
- I just think of how I reacted negatively towards homelessness. My son would have then reacted negatively.
- One of the things they did, I don't think you were here when we talked about the Homeless Jesus art
- piece that they have, which is a man basically sleeping on a bench with a blanket covering his nails
- and his feet. So it's called Homeless Jesus. But one of the things they did is they leave a space at
- the end of the bench for people to sit. And it makes me think about that, how you could
- like implicit in the art pieces is the element of interaction. You know, it's built into it. And one
- possibility would be following up on the idea of the table. Empty seats. Empty seats. Yeah. That's what
- we could sit. Yeah. Multiple people could sit. Just like Herman Wells on campus. Exactly. He's very
- nice to Herman. So yeah, empty chairs. I don't know, but just little spaces
- And if you had, I was thinking from what you were saying, you have a veteran and you have a family,
- you have other people, and then you have them in the chair, I was wondering how you could get the community
- into it and that sort of thing. Yeah. The other thing you could still do with the shoes, I mean, you
- could have,
- way to move that shoe piece into it, too, I think. I did this one project where it was the School of
- Inquiry up in Indianapolis. And a kid came up with this big question mark. We were going to do that
- as a sculpture. And the city said, no, you can't. That's too much like a sign. I said, well, it's a
- question mark. Well, I couldn't find that.
- So I said, well, what if we just put a dot there? Would that be all right? OK. So then we took the other
- part of the question mark. We put it on the sidewalk and in the parking lot. And we gave it a big presence.
- And as an outline, we had kids have chalk. And they just colored in it all the time, added things. So
- it became a way of having interaction. And it was really great. That problem became such a success.
- by changing it up. So that whole idea of making something available for people to fill in with stories,
- drawings, that's, yeah. It would be, you know, the interaction part of it too makes me think about the
- sculpture down in front of City Hall that has the water thing that all the kids walk in. It would be
- lovely to be able to do something that would encourage that kind of play, that would encourage
- you know, nice, just fun interaction with kids or whatever. The thing is, when you have the pen in your
- hand and you have ideas, you've got to write them down. It'd be interesting, too. I mean, we do have
- that religious line, but I mean, you've done an angel before, which kind of, angels kind of transcend
- religion. But if you had this table, you know, with all these different
- And I think if we did do something like that, we'd want to have more than one empty seat. But one, I
- think it'd be interesting to have some kind of immediate angel sitting in one of the seats of the table,
- just kind of elevating the sacredness of it. And that's one of the things I think that that homeless
- Jesus piece does, that it kind of says, forgive me for being religious, but it kind of says, God is here.
- God is not ignoring the poor. God is actually here, and where people think God would least likely be,
- this is where God is. This is where God is. Yeah. And that's what's so stark about that piece, is that
- it kind of makes you realize what you consider as holy is in the place of what society deems as incredibly
- not holy. Well, and that sculpture that you
- So, you know, that, you know, for those who are religious, you know, the son of God was homeless,
- you know, had no place to lay his head. And so that's where holiness occurs.
- even if you couldn't relate to it from a religious aspect, the way it would be able to translate to
- others who did not have that religious perspective would be worse. Because even if not religious,
- you do see, it's still, things that are considered religious still are show worth. Yeah, it's just like
- you and me, same as we are, not others. Right, exactly. It would almost be nice to have
- corporations wanting to say, we'd like to participate in your project. We will set aside 10 jobs for
- 10 people. We'll try to do that every six months. Wouldn't that be great? Yes. Wouldn't that be great?
- Because we realize that if you have jobs, if you have income, that gives you power. It gives you dignity.
- I mean, dignity is the fact that you can help yourself as well as be helped. And I think that's such
- an important element. I mean, as an artist, I can't do that. I mean, in some ways, I can in a way.
- But I mean, it's not a job, but it's participating. Maybe give you a sense of pride because you helped
- do this. But for the corporations out there or people
- Maybe you can participate because you don't have any relationship with art. Think about how creative
- you could be by looking at this problem and coming up with creative solutions like offering jobs or
- offering workshops that give people skills that will help them get jobs. You can extend yourself that
- way and be part of this project by offering up that
- element or something like that that I can't even think about. But I think jobs are important when we
- think of homelessness, at least I think so. Do we want to display any of the dirtier or scarier parts
- of being moved? Are you going to ask me a question? Us. Let me watch you put the idea out. The part
- of being homeless that sucks.
- We don't want to be in denial here. That's what I was sort of thinking from the very beginning. There's
- such a tension there. It's always going to be with us. If we try to make it too pretty, it's going to
- be sort of hypocritical-ish. We're not going to make this a twinkie. Right. So to see the reality of
- it versus the
- I think there's a fine line where you don't want to have denial at the same time you don't want to scare
- people. So there's a fine line of what we try to do here. And like having two projects, there could
- be that element where the documentation or the stories become part of it, but maybe in a different showcase,
- perhaps, or
- different arm of this project? But I'm not sure. I mean, I'm not sure I get what you're saying. I mean,
- it's definitely a sucky reality. But I'm not sure that goes with the more than homeless concept that
- we started out with, because so many of us, what we're afraid of is the dirty reality. That's what I'm
- saying, just a piece of it. Just make it a piece of it. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I mean, I think what
- we're trying to get people to see is beyond that, to see the people
- as people. Right. Maybe it's like this real simple analogy. The glass is half full or half empty. It's
- like people are going to look at it the way they want to look at it. And I'd like to look at that as
- half full and go from there. You think of abundance, you create abundance. You think of lack, you create
- lack. I am totally in that mindset of understanding. I think of the symbolism.
- Well, I mean, maybe there are metaphorical ways of showing the sucking reality, which is maybe the kitchen
- table is empty. Maybe there's no food there. That's right. That's right. I mean, there's, yeah, I didn't
- want to get too extreme.
- I think it doesn't really matter to me whether you're showing the positive side of people or the negative
- side of the experience. For me, what's most important is the turn. How does this image turn people's
- hearts? And so however we do that is what I really want.
- I think that Jesus' piece does that so well because it puts
- negative and the positive, quote unquote, in the same place, literally at the same moment, at the same
- time. And that's what creates the turn. It's like, oh, you're seeing two things that are, in theory,
- not supposed to be together. And by putting them together, it elevates. It elevates. And I don't know
- how you do that artistically. That's your challenge, Joe. We're going to start.
- If you do something with a spiral, one part of it can be the scary section. It's almost like wizard
- vows, you know? One of the things that the kids thought of, one of the ideas they had was having a tree
- with words of prejudice in the tree and then chopping the tree down. It's just so interesting how creative
- they get with that.
- that idea of, so the negative is paired with the taking, you know, knocking men down. I think you're
- going to have to have several pieces. This is going to be an honor. All throughout the city, Joe, everywhere.
- You can see just by these ideals of how, when you look at the scope, there's five, six, eight, 10, 12
- that you can easily pick.
- And what I'm trying to do is take as many as I can and see how they can really fulfill a lot of perspectives,
- a lot of needs, a lot of thoughts. Making it simplest. I think it's one of the hardest things for an
- artist to do something and make it simple. Because it's complex, isn't it?
- But I always want to go back to the thought that when I was at a talk, the curator from the Metropolitan
- Museum of Art in New York was giving a talk. And some of the audience asked, what makes a good work
- of art? And my ears just kind of went up and down. He said, well, first, I got to like it. Then second,
- and maybe most important,
- Because every time I see it or look at it, I discover something new. So going back to making it simple,
- but then when you walk up to it and realize that there's more into it than you first saw. And then you
- want to really look and look and look and look. And then maybe come back again and say, it's like reality.
- It's like peeling the consciousness
- I was just saying, oh gee, I thought I saw that, but I really didn't. And I think that to me is a good
- work of art that offers up that.
- Well, you can have components. You can have components. Because really, it's important to have a piece
- there. Because I do think that localizes it, though, too. It does. When you have it just in front of
- a building that is there for the homes, it sort of puts everything right in that space.
- Isolated within this space around you. No, totally. I mean, when we first talked, I thought this is
- such a, I mean, so important that it does have a home. A home. It's outside of. Well, no, it shows it,
- because you want to invite people there and be welcoming there. But as you have said, Helen,
- having some other component that can be used as an educational tool or have another presence in the
- community. Now, it could be something that's moved. It could be something that's static moved again.
- Or it could be just another point, reference in the community. Because when it's central, people who
- are always over here never see it.
- I mean, with the consciousness over there, so whenever we're there, we see something. It just becomes
- a little more involved in the complexity of living in a big city. Let's see. Yeah, this might be the
- beginning and not the end. One of the things we talked about is this kind of kicking off, beautifying
- Shalom as a center, but it
- But it also, we could think about this as, how do we create this art throughout the city? Somebody suggested
- the idea of maybe talking to one of the local churches to see if they wanted to maybe place the homeless
- Jesus statue and bring that to their community. And there might be additional things that we could do. Gotcha.
- The sky's the limit, as long as we can fund it, right, Joe? Right, right. Here's an idea that I've used
- with projects. Get it on top of the garage. I mean, it could be part of this could be a sheet magnet,
- piece of sheet magnet, that the art's on it, and you can take it, and you can move that around. And
- because it's an art piece that's part of something bigger or something of that sort, those components
- could be placed
- all around different areas all the time that you find just metal and just slap it on. And it becomes
- there for a while. Maybe on the water towers or something, because that's metal. With the side of the
- warehouse on the beeline trail. Yeah. I am here. I'm over here now. That surprises you when you find
- it. So there's a lot of different ways of coming up with
- real solutions that I don't, you know, it's like, we'll see. I think maybe the hardest part is giving
- the review committee, that we have a good review committee, made up of people from the city and arts
- administration and people from Shalom and people who are homeless. But they may have a hard time like,
- wow, I don't know,
- I mean, it's going to be, in some ways, I think the hardest thing is not having enough of something.
- Because it's such a big thing. It's great. It's a great beginning. Another image that just occurred
- to me is the backpack. That's one of the ways that people are identified who are on the streets.
- who aren't necessarily staying in a shelter in particular, is that their home is their backpack. And
- all their things, all their stuff that we talked about earlier, that's where it is. They carry it on
- their backs. That's an interesting metaphor, too. It seems like maybe part of it, too, is the idea
- to identify someone with homelessness, but I think that's precisely the scary thing about it, because
- I think people have a there-but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I mentality already. And so I don't think they
- want to identify people experiencing homelessness. I think they want to see the differences. And maybe
- we could even find a way to sort of exaggerate that. We might make it sort of more tangible
- how close, you know, I don't know. Isn't that right? Hold on. No, no, but, you know, in saying that,
- it's not like, well, one quick response. Some people say, get a job. That's something. Just get a job.
- What's it worth? Lazy. I mean, have all these judgments, all these thoughts. Well, getting a job is
- not that easy. You know, you have to have references, you have to, you know,
- look good for a job. Especially if you don't know where to take a shower. Yeah. There's a lot of things
- that make you know, parents just make a big part of hiring as well as your last job. And usually the
- people having trouble getting jobs are the people who have incredible disability issues and trauma and
- addiction issues. And so I would love that. I often say I would love that if laziness was the issue
- with homelessness, I would love it because it would be so easy to fix.
- You know, just a little extra motivation, a little drill sergeant behavior, and it'd be just fine. But
- that doesn't work. Yeah. Actually, I think I do have this one. I wrote some more on that. I want to
- thank you for bringing your son. My friend. Your friend. Bringing your friend. Thank you. It's pulling
- up too many whiteboards. We have to keep racing.
- Isn't it nice to be able to have a camera document? You can just email that to me and there you go.
- The thing about materials, I was just looking at this, it was a scavenger hunt for materials, and I
- was thinking about the fact that people are experiencing homelessness when they are not at Shalom or
- at an overnight shelter, they're on the move
- city and beyond. And I wonder if there's a way to invite them or involve them in scavenging for materials
- that would be used. That was my idea. So literally, it doesn't have to be a scavenger, like the game
- is scavenging. But just saying bring whatever you find or what you think would make a good material
- to be used.
- Some of these people that come to Shalom are already quarters. Maybe they donate some of their junk.
- Some of them have their cars full of stuff.
- And another image that comes to mind when Forest said the backpack, it made me think about tents too,
- because a lot of these people, their home is a tent. Or strollers. Lots of people experiencing homelessness
- with strollers. And bicycles. Before I was on staff, we did kind of a photo art piece where
- where we gave cameras to different people who were homeless, and the theme was, what's home like for
- me? And so they would take the cameras, and then they would take a photo of where their home was. So
- we got all kinds of different perspectives, from tents to shelter beds to just all kinds of different
- things. And I don't know, there's something interesting about that, too. But those are different things.
- Well, all the places in the community that are hospice, right? The library, people's park, the courthouse
- line, all the places where people go, right? Places that are welcoming. Yeah, but maybe institutionally
- they're welcoming, but not necessarily the communities that
- We're going all over the place, but that's the point. So I'm thinking now about the homeless Jesus bench
- thing. And we were talking about sitting at the table. And I'm thinking about how the city is now moving
- to remove the bench-like areas around the courthouse because they don't want people sleeping there.
- So I don't know. Somehow a bench seems really symbolic of a lot of things.
- Would there be an opportunity to land a speaker on it when it's done? Yeah. I don't know if there's,
- the only thing we'd have to figure out is the city rules, because the city has an issue
- I'm just checking on that to make sure there's no things that we can't, I'm not sure if we can. As it
- occurs to me, I'm not sure if we can have any trouble other than falling. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just wondering
- about if it is going to invite interactivity, whether you would be able to create paths. Because right
- now, it's the fence. Yeah, we could certainly work with the fence and interact with it in the game.
- But see, the beauty of something that you can't do, or what's hard to do, just spirals to be more creative.
- Yeah. Sure. That's right. Like those trees, we have to have those trees that were required by the city
- to be here. And so we'll have to figure out what else. So we have to work around those trees. So those
- trees have to stay? They have to stay. OK, let's go.
- You just have to make the sculpture bigger than the trees. We can make another tree. Make it a tree for him.
- I think of a garbage bag to specifically cans and things like that. We have, there's a couple men that
- I live on in Sixth Street, and we'll kind of on Sixth Street, Sixth Street Jackson, but we have a couple
- of men that come and collect cans, and I just sit mine out for them, and that kind of represents it
- in some way.
- a lot of people around the city or even garbage bags. Yeah, with the garbage bags, they're either trying
- to find a handful of street food or something like that. It's a gigantic tableau that's going to go
- to the whole block of wall. There could be benches and trees and tables. If we have anything in the
- sculpture that can be scrapped, it might be. We haven't even started talking about cardboard signs yet.
- That could be a photography thing. Yeah, what if they were cardboard signs that said things that were
- different from standard cardboard signs? Like, offer me a job?
- Yeah. That's cool. What was that double message? You're expecting, you need a job, but I'm offering
- you a job. You would never expect somebody else to do that, especially the way they
- If you would just have middle-class, non-homeless people holding cardboard signs and say those things.
- Well, there's actually a whole fundraising concept around that very idea where people say, I have a
- home and I'm raising money for people who don't. And things like that. And they have cardboard signs.
- Middle-class people.
- I actually have a dream of us doing that in the city on Black Friday after Thanksgiving. I wish you'd
- do that. Yeah. It'd be an interesting way of, we're using Kickstart as a way of funding this project.
- Maybe it might be the majority of the funds for this project. But it would be interesting just to,
- offer up people a sign saying, donate to the homelessness art project. And just see what it takes to
- hold that sign up there for a couple of hours and see what happens. I mean, whenever you're on the street
- collecting money or asking people for something, it is so different. And even when I do these projects
- on the street, how many people don't even know? I have a 34-foot guitar. I can tell you that there are
- people who walk by
- Don't even look. Don't even see it. It's like, I'm not even there. It's like. They're afraid.
- I don't know, because it's kind of like, that's not part of my life. They're on their little, especially
- now with the eye films and stuff, they're just walking by and the world's passing by. They're on their
- eye film. You know, you can do fundraising for this project. People can go. It's not like that.
- people experiencing homelessness at their regular spots, you know, on their hood and stuff, and sit
- with them with signs that say, you know, raising money for this art project. Sit beside them. That's
- just a partial. Unfortunately, it made it sound a little like there was project money. I can't imagine.
- I know you know that. Right, right.
- It's reachable. I mean, that's why I have to think in terms of when I think about ideas.
- That's the back of my head. I don't like to put it in front. But whenever you do anything, it's so important
- with a good idea. Some people don't realize it. With a good idea, it's not really good unless you can
- do it. So having a good idea, but if that's too expensive or it's not going to work. So good working idea.
- The one thing I did see, I want to say it was New York, but I can't remember. I saw it on, I can't remember
- the site either, it's been a few years ago, but there was like a photography project and they took cardboard,
- they actually had homeless that held cardboard signs and it said normal things that they used to do.
- to create a connection. You made a really good point. You said sometimes people, they don't want to
- associate. They want that difference. And it's like, you have to bring them back. One of them was, he
- scored so many touchdowns for his high school. It's like, how do you relate to that? Another one was,
- I cried at my child's birth, just like you did, type thing.
- They also had another project that tied into that, which was veterans. And it was a little bit more
- serious than that. But they were saying things that changed their lives. But I really liked that tying
- in something to connect you. Yeah. I had one experience where there was some atrocity happening somewhere.
- And you saw this body. And all you saw were the shoes. And the person had Levi's.
- with sneakers. And I looked at that. I said, that could be me. I mean, that could be anybody. But you
- have that association with kind of a negative thing. But you do. You need that buy-in about, I have
- a relationship with that. Right. Negative or positive is expected. Yes.
- No. No, it's just lots and lots of words. You know, the way I work, as you're thinking of more ideas,
- what I like to do is I'll just start sliding things. I'll just put them in little groups, like this
- little group goes together. Well, this little group goes together. Or maybe I take something off that
- group. It just becomes a way of, then another day goes by, and I'll look.
- Wait a minute, I should add that one over here. It becomes kind of a process of moving things. And yeah,
- it's fun. Yeah. You're great at that, Joe. Well, any more ideas?
- on the same thing, it's kind of closing. And then we run them out. So as I understand, Shalom's going
- to have another little brainstorming session with the residents there, or clients, or people. Guests.
- All the works. Yeah, I mean, clients at Stone Belt Guests at Shalom. When is that? We haven't scheduled
- it yet. Soon. Soon. Yeah.
- And then I'll be collecting the other information from you. And then we'll compile it and you'll have
- a list of all of what I have. I'd like to get contact information so maybe we can pass a piece of paper
- around so I can get in touch with you about the next steps. Some of these may not, like we're doing
- the More Than Homeless project, which is
- is bigger than just this particular art project. So for example, that cardboard sign thing might become
- a photographic project that we want to engage in. And so those are different. So I'm trying to create
- a database of people interested in the home or the homeless kind of work. So if you'd like to be part
- of that, as well as the art project,
- Thanks, everybody. We appreciate you being here. Thank you for coming. And if you'd like to be on that
- mailing list, just come on up and fill out your info right here and enjoy the rest of your day.