So thank you for coming. This idea began from multiple perspectives. And one was a quote from a woman
that you may have seen in the paper named Crystal Banks, who talks about how she experienced enormous
shame being homeless. And she didn't want to tell anybody. And after the experience of feeling enormous
care from the community for her and eventually getting out of homelessness,
She said that she was humbled by that experience and now she's not afraid to tell people anymore that
she was homeless. She feels like she can just tell them and she felt empowered by the people and the
care that she experienced. And the other is a statue I saw recently that's been kind of controversial
and making the rounds and it's a statue of a man on a bench
covered in a blanket and then he has nails in his feet and it's called homeless Jesus and it and it's
made it stirred some controversy and and I think also empathy for people and so our purpose isn't necessarily
creating a religious object of art but but but that's kind of the inspiration can we create a piece
of art that that will turn people's hearts
you know, will turn people's minds and help them start thinking about, thinking about homelessness
differently. More than half of the people who are homeless right now are families with dependent children,
you know, and we don't, and when people talk about homelessness, that's not what they think, despite
that's the majority of people who are homeless in our community. When, you know, something like 10%
are veterans and 30% of,
the rest are mentally ill. And so it's, you know, when you start to look at it from that place and that
perspective, it defies the prejudice that we see. And, and hopefully this can be something to help us
see as a community, see things a little differently and see the, and treat people a little differently.
You know, that's the, the inherent nature of prejudice is taking, is taking the,
you know, the opinion of a few and applying it to a group as a whole. And certainly some of the people
who we know are experiencing homelessness, their difficulties are such that some people consider them
inconvenient in our community or worse. And yet, you know, homelessness is so much bigger
and people who are experiencing that sense of being perceived as inconvenient need our empathy and care
too. So this is an attempt to, one attempt of many to kind of create something beautiful and inspiring
and hopefully something that builds empathy and care. This is a one of three
public sessions that we're going to have around this. We've had one already at the project school with
children at the project school and this is the second one and we're gonna have a third one at Shalom
Center, specifically targeting people who are homeless there so that we get a really full perspective.
So I'm glad that you've come and can offer your part in today. Anything else you want me to say before
we pass it off to you?
Yeah, we have a project that we that we call we're calling them more than homeless project and the and
the there's you know started with a Facebook page and and then up we had a big public event and this
is one of the first things to emerge out of that event. The other thing that's emerging very quickly
out of that event also is attempting to get housing status added to the anti
anti-discrimination clause, the Bloomington Human Rights Ordinance. So those two things have come quickly
out of that process, and we think there'll be a lot more. So we have a tentative theme or title, which
is more than homeless. Do you want me to talk about that a little bit?
Yeah, that's why I said tentative, yeah. Because we don't know what it's going to be called, ultimately.
But that's the concept or the theme. And that's the heart of it, is to help people see people who are
homeless as more, to help build that sense of empathy, to recognize the humanity of people. I mean,
again, prejudice is built on objectifying.
seeing people as a problem rather than as people. And that's another thing we want to try and move people
beyond is to help them move from that sense of problem to person. And so all those ideas are just doing
in my mind. The kids did an awesome job when I got to sit with them and I got their feedback. And so
I'm really looking forward to hearing what you guys want to offer too.
So they need the mic, Joe, for that. So if you want, I know it's a little awkward, but. Stage fright.
Not really, but should I be here or there? There? Okay. What I'm gonna do is just spend five minutes
to talk about the process so you understand what these ideas, how they're gonna be generated into an
actual work of art of some sort. I have no idea what it is.
which is always great. I mean, it's really hard not to think about it, so I, you know, it's like, blah,
blah, blah. What I've learned early in the process of doing this, I've been doing it for 20 years, is
that I had a kid come up with me, up to me in a school, and he said, Mr. Lamontillo, I don't see my
art anywhere. And I said to him, I said, you know, I try to use everybody's art, and I didn't use your
art, and I felt terrible.
I mean, it's like, ooh. So I developed this. I mean, that was a problem. So this is what feeds me as
an artist. You have a problem, you try to solve it creatively. And I think that's what happened. So
I create these project books. And what they are, I collect all the ideas, all the art that's generated,
and I put them in this book. And what I do in terms as a designer or a facilitator for an art project
is I look at all the ideas and I choose as many as I can to make them work. It's kind of like I become
a magnet and all these other little bits and pieces come together somehow. It's amazing. It's a very
intuitive process for me because I don't know how they're going to fit together. But when I know it's
done, I feel whole. I feel it just
I feel wonderful about it. I usually never give somebody two ideas. That's counterintuitive. You give
them one idea to look at because I put all my energy into that. Because if they choose the one I didn't
have as much as this, I'm not going to feel good about that. So I want to feel good about what I do.
And so I put all my energy into that. And that's pretty much how it works in terms of taking your ideas
and looking at them and trying to
see how they're interrelated, how they connect. Because I believe everything connects. That's the way
I look at the world. Everything's symbolic. It has a lot more depth than what you see. It's just beautiful.
What else can I say? For this project, usually again, I don't know beforehand what materials we're going
to use. But because we want to do this as a
community project that has to do with the homeless, I thought it would be really good to make it out
of recycled materials as much as possible because we want to take something that's a problem and make
it beautiful. And so we're going to take aluminum and the other part of it is keep the maintenance down.
And I also try to make it inclusive. So I try to think about how we can get many people involved
even from far away distance, they can mail me a license plate or something. So these are the sort of
things that are kind of germinating in my brain right now. So I told people at Scrapyard, save license
plates, save streets of science. And since I've been working for many years, they're very kind and generous,
and they're putting things aside for me. But again, that may change. I don't know. I mean, it's really
going to depend on your ideas.
But when it comes down to actual working, I'm going to be on the street because I really believe the
street's my studio. It invites everybody to see it and to participate. Again, it's about process. It's
not about magic. This is not magic. This is about participation and stepping forward and asking questions.
I try to make myself, if I put myself in a room,
you can easily not see me and I don't exist, you know, like that tree in the forest, you know. I want
to be a tree that you see right in front of you and you, you, I say you can come by, learn a new skill
if you like. I'm sure we're going to do a number of them and be part of it, you know, be part of the solution.
And that's the sort of generated art that I try to do. And you might even have a better idea in the
midst of what we're doing, and we'll change it. I mean, if it's something that really works. So I try
to be as open as possible. So with that, I'll just say, are there any questions at this point? Where
is it going to be sited? We've had discussions about it. I mean, a primary location is going to be right
in front of us.
on the Walnut Street, so it's a real nice visual. We've also talked about the concept, and we'll see
if that actually ends up with the idea of having an object that's movable, with the idea of placing
it elsewhere, but also the idea that homelessness is a moving thing. People are almost constantly asked
to move. And so there's actually some artistic quality to that possibility.
I mean, I think about the WFHB dog and how they use that in front of their location and then and it
appears in a parade or it appears at an event. And this might be a good thing for Shalom. I don't know.
I mean, that's just not. Yes.
It can be. It really can be. I just don't. I just made those suggestions as a starter. And yes. I mean,
I really can. I made several sculptures out of found objects. I just went and printed some, if you want
to see just examples. All of my sculptures are movable. Oh, good. They end up being sort of like creatures
or monsters or toys. This is kind of a variety. Old vacuum cleaners, exercise bike, weed eaters, chair.
This is great.
Are you a local artist here? Yeah, I'm here. OK, good. I just came down from Indianapolis about a year
ago. Daryl. Daryl? Joe Lamantia. Nice to meet you. You too. In fact, I like working with artists. So
this is a good thing. Yes, ma'am? A suggestion that I gave a while back to solve homelessness. Take
an apartment complex. You have one that houses a few. It's new.
but take a large complex and put the homeless in and off the street. Let them do volunteer work in the
community to learn job skills and save the community money and pay for their bed. And then put job links
and the agencies in the building. And when they learn job skills, job links can give them employment.
And it would help the community out.
while helping themselves. OK, from what I hear, I'm going to put job skills. Because I don't know what
that means. I mean, see, this is a good thing. Having a large apartment complex to put them in to give
them sleeping beds, not full-size apartments, but sleeping beds, bunk beds. Beds? I like the word beds.
Joe, I wonder if it's possible also to address the materials to you. So what keeps coming to my mind
is whatever it is, what it's made out of, can it be made out of materials that suggest home? So like
silverware or, you know, what else? Old sinks or things that are, that are, that mean home, you know, that are,
Welcome to the military. Yeah, I mean, everybody's like, welcome home. So like, yeah, silverware, and
welcome mats, and things like that. That's really interesting. Washing machines. Yeah. That's fascinating.
Yeah, pots and pans. Yeah, dishes. Yeah, china. Old china. Pieces of china. Sorry. I'm going too fast
here. Yeah, that's awesome. I was going to say it.
That's right, you got it. You did, that's right, you got it.
aware of what it means to be honest, or is it a concept that's more like a hand up versus a hand out?
You know, it seems to me... I was thinking the same thing. One of those is going to make the thing totally
different. So what does more than help? Say more about what more than help means. Well, I mean, the
concept is to stir a change of heart. Okay, I didn't want you to say that.
So to look at something and feel, to transcend the stereotype of homelessness. Well, I think Crystal
said it in her book. And it was something to do with, nobody takes the time to hear my story. Something
about a story. And that, sort of going back to what Tom said, there's a way of looking at homelessness
that is the reality of it. Just like mental illness, there's a reality to that.
and at any given time people are homeless. So are we trying to, we don't know what we're trying to do.
But there's a story there of people who are homeless. And then the next story is their redemption from
that or another life after that. And there's sort of like a tension there
I think I'm concerned about is that there's a kind of deficit thinking that always goes on, that there's
something wrong with these women. And that's what you were saying, I think. Is there a way to celebrate
something that's not a deficit? Yeah, and I think that represents something that you said early on that
I really agree with. And that is that there is a human web of inclusion. And that we were all a part
of this. We're all connected. So somehow demonstrating that connectivity
that what happens to this person really does make a difference to me, ultimately. And people frame that
in different ways. But I think that notion of human web of inclusion and that we're part of a caring
community. And that means at certain points in time, I'm a caregiver. But at other points in time, I'm
a care receiver. And that's part of all of our lives.
And so that's helped me, what helps connect us. And I'm sorry, I have to leave, but I have one other
idea that I wanted to share, and that's to make it responsive to multiple senses. So, okay, it's gonna
be visual, obviously, but is it something that people could touch and feel
And that there's an aspect of that. And maybe there's even something that if it's outside, there are
wind chimes or something that makes pleasant noise. Not horrible noise, but soothing kind of noise to
appeal to the hearing as well. So I just wanted to throw those out. And I really apologize that I have
to. Sound touch.
Just make it interactive. Yeah, interactive would be great. Motion. Yeah, motion. If it's something
like a call, there won't be illusions. So the web of inclusion and connectedness and everything makes
me think of something for us that is something that I think most people are not aware of, which is that
the homeless people or the homeless in our community
have families and are parts of families, and they have children, whether they're grown up or not, and
that they are a family. The people who come to Shalom are a family of sorts. And so I keep thinking
that there has to be some way of showing familyness, community and familyness, and the range
of- Multi-generation. Yeah, and the fact that the
Families are both a strength for some of these people and a weakness, and that they're also problematic.
They've been estranged from their families. And in some cases, that's really dramatically affected their
lives. So the significance of family in the homeless community, and that's a way of seeing homeless
people who are experiencing homelessness as not as just
discrete individuals. You know, they're not just that guy and that woman. I mean, there are parts of
communities and families, too. Yes, ma'am. Long ago, Richard Hospital had Central State, which was a
complex of apartment buildings. They put all the talent homeless in, and then they helped them get jobs
from there and back out into society and their own apartment.
The only thing they didn't do that my new idea is volunteer work in the community to learn job skills.
But it worked for them and it can work down here. I have a thought about the motion interactive
Do you want me to write? Do you want me to write to you? So my idea before I do this is that I wonder
if it's possible to make part of it be movable and part of it be... Just say what you want. Yeah, so
this is what I was thinking about when you said about making it movable. It seems like part of it has
to stay and part of it has to go. Like if you could have a part of it that was removable,
then it kind of suggests like how homelessness breaks up things, you know, and how you have to move
around between come back to, and that's kind of like, Shalom is really a place that the people in the
community come back to all the time. Okay, just to surmise that, that's great. Okay. Revolving door,
that's another way of saying it, revolving door.
Yeah, go ahead. Oh, I think the sense of community is important. It goes both ways. For Bloomington
to feel community and good for homeless, but also homeless to understand that they have a responsibility
in the communities where they are living. And I think a lot of people have been impacted, some negatively,
by homeless people.
I think it would be good if somehow the homeless could get a sense of community themselves from this
sculpture. Maybe work on it or portray the idea of not just us accepting the homeless, but also the
homeless accepting that they're in a community and they have responsibility to their neighbors. And
I think that would be valuable and I think
go both ways, and it would build a lot for what I think that we're trying to accomplish. I don't know
how you can portray that through pieces of art, but maybe there's a process, or I'm not sure. I mean,
that is the sort of process that I do by making it inclusive. So inviting the people at Shalom as well,
as well as other organizations that help people who are in need to participate. They're welcome. To
make it really clear that people are welcome to, and they don't have to have a skill. They can just,
the willingness is so important. I try to say that over and over again. Don't let a skill keep you away.
You can even just watch. Everyone has that skill.
And from that, you're participating by watching. And then from that, you look forward and maybe learning
something in terms of a skill and applying it with the project. Yes? Yeah, right on that one, too. I
thought maybe this one turns around like it doesn't. Oh, like it doesn't? No, it doesn't. Would have
been nice.
Yeah, just like, you know, find something for each individual homeless person that goes to the community.
They don't have to be homeless, but just if they want to be part of it, just go find something interesting
that they would feel like would be part of all these things we're talking about. Right. Make it work.
Go out and find something.
talked about with the kids, which I thought was really interesting, is they came up with images. We
actually had them write images and draw images. And so one of the images that they came up with was
playing with the idea of walking in another person's shoes. And maybe even actually having shoes of
different kinds that people could literally step into, which I just thought was so interesting.
stirred me, too, is just that idea of how many, like the web of inclusion, I think, kind of brings it,
too. It's like, what are these metaphors that we have in our society for how we empathize with each
other? And that's a classic one, that of walking a mile in someone else's shoes. And it just made me
think, what else is out there that symbolically helps us think about other people?
like sharing the load or shoulder to cry on. It's a metaphoric dialogue. I mean, I personally think
you can't walk in anybody's shoes, but that's another story. But I mean, one way you learn about someone
else is you engage in a conversation with them, a genuine conversation. And I don't know if that can
be depicted. I'm not a nerd. Well, you made me think of this, that you can become homeless by a natural
event. Sure. Tornado.
flooding. How many people have, you know, have homes that were, and they have jobs, but suddenly something
happens and it's just taken away from them. And maybe the interim, maybe, you know, whatever it is,
even though they witnessed maybe being with cousins or friends for whatever time it takes for them to
rebuild their homes, or resettle, they're homeless. Yeah, and I wish there was a way to depict that
these people aren't, as Forrest, you mentioned earlier, the type of people that we, that many people
might envision as being homeless, that they are parents with children and they are, you know, just like
you and me, you know, and because of an event of some kind. And I think that's the hardest for people to
recognize that they're like you and me. That's why it's hard to talk about. That's why it becomes a
stigma, because we can't even imagine that we could be in that place. Yes. Yes. Yeah, and I don't know,
again, I'm not an artist, but it would be wonderful to, just bouncing on what Sheri said, to have a
piece of art that somehow evades people's fear, because I think the
The part of the problem in the dialogue is that people are afraid and they're so there because it's
the unknown and because they're afraid that they're afraid of everything That's why you said about a
stigma and mental illness is a stigma homelessness is a stigma and it's very hard just like you said
you feel like
might be offending somebody by giving them a meal or we don't know what to do. And consequently, so
many people just turn away because they just don't know what to do. Isn't it strange? I mean, to have
that feeling like you see somebody there and you just want to give them some food. I had some person
look at me and say, and I wasn't sure what they said, but it's like maybe there wasn't enough money
I gave them or something. And I thought, that's another whole
dimension itself, I insulted that person by, you know, like gave him whatever change I had in my pocket.
That could be an insult. But don't think of it as that. I just want to give. Right. And so that is a
very strange sort of place to be. It's real tension. It really is.
Or it's you and me, us and them, that sort of thing instead of we? Yeah. That's why I like this gentleman
just talking about the community thing. Because it's so much othering these people. They're over there.
They're other than we are. But they're not. They're the same as we are. They just are in bad shape in
some particular set of circumstances. They're what the grace of God does on the rest of us. So if you
can do what he's talking about, if you
this sense of coming together, or mutual responsibility, or dialogue, or web, or whatever. Those are,
you know, if I were to kind of sort through these, there's a lot of them around that idea. I think that
would be a very cool idea. I don't know, you're good at this stuff. I don't know if you ever heard of
Martha Beck. She's like a life coaching. She says that when she works with people in life coaching,
she talks about
the fear of being a bag lady. One of the greatest fears that, in this case she was speaking about women
that she was working with, they have is this terror that one day they would be a bag lady, so as she
put it. And so there is this kind of massive fear that I think all of us on some deep level are terrified
of becoming homeless. That's like one of the worst things that could happen to us and one of the scariest
things that could happen to us.
And so it does break down that conversation. If you find them uncomfortable in that place of fear, you
don't want to have anything to do with it because it's terrifying. And I think that goes back to the
community family thing. I mean, what underlies part of that fear is what becoming the back lady means
is that you're alone and you're abandoned and there's no one
that you can turn to for help or support. Your community is gone. Your family is gone. And so it ties
back into that. That's part of the fear. And I always look at fear this way. Fear is you and the distance
between it. And so you think by not looking at it, whatever it is, or not getting close to it, or walking
away from it,
You're going to be OK, but you're putting more distance. And by more distance, you have more fear. And
vulnerability. It's an axiom or I don't know what the word is, but it's a reverse of what you think.
Well, the same with being vulnerable. Being vulnerable suggests that there's some weakness on your part
or the other person's part to engage. And yet, vulnerability suggests that
That's what can open the door to connectivity, is allowing yourself to sort of let go of that fear and
being vulnerable enough to speak truth. Well, it's been my experience over this 20 years to just say
this, that when I approach people in schools or in communities to do projects, I can't tell you the
feeling I get of people wanting to give.
I think it's a human nature to give, to really give on oneself. I know. It's easy to give the money,
and it's easy to give towards an organization that helps people that were not comfortable being among.
But what would it mean for us if we became vulnerable enough to say, you know, I'm going to meet these
people face to face. I want them to meet me face to face. And what kind of change would occur
We interact it that way. Obviously, we need people with pockets to give towards infrastructure for helping
people who are the most vulnerable. But if we change that around to doing more interaction. Maybe part
of the fear is just the emotionalness of it all.
of how, I mean, compassion, how, I mean, you can just cry because the story is so sad, or you get really
angry because it's so sad, or that it's not right, it's not, you know, all the injustice. I mean, there's
a lot about stories that, you know, I'm hoping with this project that we have these other elements of
maybe even documenting people's stories
and maybe even using photographs to some extent. Yes. Just embellishing. Editing. Oh, I meant. Sorry.
Occupational hazards. Well, I didn't mean my story, but I was the third person. My story and their story.
Yep, got it.
I don't know how long it would take us to make something, but as an artist you probably appreciate the
process of making art is pretty much the best part to me. It is. The actual process. The finished product.
That's right. That's always nice to move on to something. So during the process we can incorporate all
the personal stories or
Right. I mean, because this is a BCAT and this is a community radio station, I just want to invite people
to think about making this project something that they might want to do as a documentary. Students,
professionals. It's all about collaboration. It's all about coming together and making these decisions.
When I first moved here,
One of the things I felt was that I don't have to be New York to live to be an artist. I can be right
here and I can do my art. And people are going to come from New York to see that. Just turn the table.
You make here where you live, you're a poet. And make it your community. And it was a real interesting
sort of thought.
I wonder if you could have a conversation back here too.
I wonder if you can embed within whatever art piece it is some excerpts of some stories that are woven
through. You know, just like we see on any kind of statues, you know, there are quotes, there are sayings
from their writings on the wall, whatever. You know, it's their story and maybe excerpts of that woven
throughout. The brain interactors.
where you can write on it and stuff. Were there inscriptions on this? I can't remember. I don't know
whether it was both of them. There were just notes with things you could write. But adding an interactive
component, that could be ongoing. I mean, writing on the wall is one of the best examples
Project Joe did years ago, and the difficulty with that is that it's not, you have to monitor it, but
it could be a piece of. But it was also movable. It was movable. And actually, when I didn't monitor
it, I mean, that was, things happen which are just perfect. Just perfect. But it could be an educational
component like that. Maybe there's a part of it that's walking in and out.
interact with it. Yeah, right. This was a project Joe did that asked, what is democracy? And then people
just went crazy. Sherry was, she was the head of that. Is there a time that this is going to be achieved?
Do you mean a time in terms started at least? I'm hoping.
As I said in the paper, I'm hoping that by the end of this month, hopefully we can start. But that might
be a little early. I don't know. We'll see. But within the next, I'd say the next four weeks, we should
start. And I'm thinking it'll take, it's always hard to gauge this, but anywhere from two to eight weeks,
or even 10 weeks, depending on the complexity.
and the involvement that's needed to do something like this, whatever it is. But we have two great places
that we're going to work. I didn't mention that. One would be in front of WFHB as a site. That won't
be as long because they're going to do some construction there. So I have to be about the end of July
for that site. And then the other site will be at Rhinos. And both sites, of course, I want it to be
in the city and have visibility. And if we have to move again, possibly at the site for Shalom, which
is across the way. But I wanted it as much central as possible so people could see what's going on.
And put it in places that have importance, like WFHB Community Radio, Rhinos, that's a teenage club.
for kids, and it's such an important asset to the community. So that's the sort of sights we're looking
at. So it won't have to be mobile? Well, it will be mobile in that sense. Yeah, it will move. It might
require some heavy equipment to move it. But we have that taken care of.
You can build that guitar, you can build it. Yeah, exactly. Well, the city was helpful in that. Came
with a forklift, put it on the thing. Actually, we have Bloomington Crane who's going to help. If we
have to lift it, whatever it is, and mount it or something, they're going to do that. We also have an
architect and engineer who will help to make sure that what we do is stable enough. I always like to
have that in a project.
just so that people's minds are at ease about the integrity. I had a school where a maintenance person
came up and said, what are you doing here? I worked with a utility company. They were going to set the
poles. They used their nuts and bolts. Couldn't get any better, and he backed off. But it was just the
fact that it's so important to work with people who
are professional, as well as working people who aren't professional, to get that balance. And that's
what it's all about, is having a balance when you do an art project or any project, so that everybody
has input. So what is the, are we gonna brainstorm actual shapes or things over this? Well, you can
submit some shapes and drawings, yeah, that's fine. I just wondered. Of course. Yeah, I'd be really
curious if people
have images that pop into their head that when you think about this, what are the pictures that come
to you if you're a pictured kind of person? Well, I think of obviously the kitchen table or the table,
which of course has already been done down at the farmer's market, the banquet table. But when you think
of engaging and people sitting around the table, I mean, that has been sort of the central place
many times for people to engage. It's just around food. And when I think of the work I've done,
you know, at the community kitchen over the years, I mean, that's where people come and eat. And,
you know, we as I don't think that that crosses every barrier, sitting at a table and eating and enjoying
conversation. Sitting, sitting.
Do you know what I mean? Totally. In fact, let me just say as an artist, when I take your thought of,
just so you understand, when I say, when you say that, even though Dale did a great piece, the kitchen
table, isn't that you can't do another kitchen table, but that's not, I know that's not what you mean,
the essence of it. Yeah, it's the meaning behind it. So he's taking that essence and how that can connect
with something else and there you are.
thinking about that, I imagine two people talking to each other. One is situated in this kind of environment
where there are multiple license plates, and it's conveying the image of, I live in multiple places,
I'm mobile, and the environment of the other person conveys stability, and they're both talking about
something.
almost like a dinner with Andre. Sort of a sadness conversation. But you have to have this environment
situation to understand something about the nature of their conversation. So I'm saying. And then when
we put it all together, what are the common elements then that really there are no differences between
the two? Right. I mean, when you think about food, you think about how to prepare food.
You have objects, you have things like spices. And all those things have symbolism. You have a spice
thing filled with something else. More meaning to it. I mean, it's sort of playfulness. And I think
that homeless can relate to that. I mean, there's something in their lives that they can remember about
that and relate to.
When I think of the visuals of the images, like Tom, I think of people. That's what we're talking about.
We're talking about people. So I don't know. It just comes to mind. I keep thinking of families. Yeah,
an image of a family comes to mind. An image of a veteran comes to my mind a lot, too. Yeah, different
types of people sitting around that kitchen table. Very different. Or what makes up a family.
the veteran with his hat on with all of his, you know, we were at Tom's Mother's at Autumn Hills for
people with dementia. Last night we were at a dinner there and a man, you know, in his 80s, you know,
I was talking with him, trying to talk with him, but he had his veteran's hat on from World War II and
he must have had 30 silver buttons on his hat. You know, you just think a veteran
there are so many people who are vulnerable and who could be depicted around a table. Right. There's
a lot of things that make somebody homeless or without a home, or without a home. Homeless,
without a home. That could mean a lot of different things, without a home. Yeah, that's true. I mean,
you could be homeless and have a room. It's almost like, well,
That is a house, isn't it, or something? But you're isolated. One of the things that we've been playing
with the tagline for the center, and it's for all who seek home. It emphasizes one of the things we
do is homelessness, but it also emphasizes we do a lot more than homelessness. It's that seeking of
home, which is bigger.
And I don't know how you put that into an image, but I think that's what you're kind of talking about.
Right. I mean, people have houses. But is that your home? Yeah. There's a difference between a house
and a home. Yeah, exactly. So that's a distinction I make for myself. This is my home. It's not just
somewhere I stay. Yeah, there's meaning behind it. Right. So it's going to be challenging.
And I think it's going to be exciting in that challenge. I'm sorry. Please. Something simplistic that
flashed into my mind as I read on your Facebook inviting everyone to come to this brainstorming event,
I got a flash of a spiral. Just very simple, but especially not just with veterans, but with people
that experience homelessness, how fast someone can experience homelessness.
So like you said, with a natural event, or such as mental illness, how fast you can spiral into homelessness.
It can happen faster than I think a lot of people realize. So I just see a spiral person. I think it's
simple with a lot of them, I guess. My in-laws are moving. They've moved. And now we're dealing with
their home.
They took some stuff they want and some other stuff they don't want. And I'm just experiencing stuff.
And how does stuff define who we are? My stuff, your junk, my treasure, it's just stuff. Objects,
you know, objects. I mean, they have stories. I guess objects have stories. But that's why this stuff really
resonates with because objects do tell stories. And when you look at an object, you look at a bed or
a fork, you have a story that comes to your mind. Your bed, your fork, your room, your table. I mean,
as an artist, I'm just going to say all this stuff here. All these ideas and just one second.
There's a lot. I mean, I wouldn't have to.
We just did this and be enough. Oh, yeah. I was wondering if there would be perhaps two projects, one
for encourage law and the other one for use in schools. And I'm just looking at it as part of a teaching
project. I'm looking at the statement there walking
And just thinking in terms of a school environment, could you create such a piece that had all these
different shoes and that as part of the education for homelessness in schools, you would have people
give seven other people shoes like this and then imagine
My five-year-old, yesterday I was talking to him about homelessness, and I said, what do you think that
is? And he said, so he thought about it for a minute, and he's just getting to the point where he has
these ideas. And it's so fascinating.
He doesn't have the fear that you can develop an adulthood. So I said, what do you think to be homeless?
Do you think they have a home? Do they have a home or do they not? And he said, I don't think they have
a home. And I said, well, what do you think we can do for these people? And he goes, well, he goes,
well, what do you do? And I said, well, sometimes you try to do service volunteering. Maybe you feed
them. Maybe you can give them money for food or things like that. He's like, oh, well, if you don't
have money, you can give them a hug.
And I said, that's true. We can. And he said, well, can't we share our home? And I love that innocence.
I think that's wonderful to tap into that. Because as adults, we develop that fear of association. As
a five-year-old, he doesn't know what reputation is. He doesn't have any of those things. So he's like,
well, why can't you share your home with these people? If they don't have one, give them one type thing.
I think that innocence is great to tap into.
I mean, going with this with education, being able to help be a force of change, having young children
come up with ideas and come up with sayings and come up with visuals, that could be very powerful. Right.
I just think of how I reacted negatively towards homelessness. My son would have then reacted negatively.
One of the things they did, I don't think you were here when we talked about the Homeless Jesus art
piece that they have, which is a man basically sleeping on a bench with a blanket covering his nails
and his feet. So it's called Homeless Jesus. But one of the things they did is they leave a space at
the end of the bench for people to sit. And it makes me think about that, how you could
like implicit in the art pieces is the element of interaction. You know, it's built into it. And one
possibility would be following up on the idea of the table. Empty seats. Empty seats. Yeah. That's what
we could sit. Yeah. Multiple people could sit. Just like Herman Wells on campus. Exactly. He's very
nice to Herman. So yeah, empty chairs. I don't know, but just little spaces
And if you had, I was thinking from what you were saying, you have a veteran and you have a family,
you have other people, and then you have them in the chair, I was wondering how you could get the community
into it and that sort of thing. Yeah. The other thing you could still do with the shoes, I mean, you
could have,
way to move that shoe piece into it, too, I think. I did this one project where it was the School of
Inquiry up in Indianapolis. And a kid came up with this big question mark. We were going to do that
as a sculpture. And the city said, no, you can't. That's too much like a sign. I said, well, it's a
question mark. Well, I couldn't find that.
So I said, well, what if we just put a dot there? Would that be all right? OK. So then we took the other
part of the question mark. We put it on the sidewalk and in the parking lot. And we gave it a big presence.
And as an outline, we had kids have chalk. And they just colored in it all the time, added things. So
it became a way of having interaction. And it was really great. That problem became such a success.
by changing it up. So that whole idea of making something available for people to fill in with stories,
drawings, that's, yeah. It would be, you know, the interaction part of it too makes me think about the
sculpture down in front of City Hall that has the water thing that all the kids walk in. It would be
lovely to be able to do something that would encourage that kind of play, that would encourage
you know, nice, just fun interaction with kids or whatever. The thing is, when you have the pen in your
hand and you have ideas, you've got to write them down. It'd be interesting, too. I mean, we do have
that religious line, but I mean, you've done an angel before, which kind of, angels kind of transcend
religion. But if you had this table, you know, with all these different
And I think if we did do something like that, we'd want to have more than one empty seat. But one, I
think it'd be interesting to have some kind of immediate angel sitting in one of the seats of the table,
just kind of elevating the sacredness of it. And that's one of the things I think that that homeless
Jesus piece does, that it kind of says, forgive me for being religious, but it kind of says, God is here.
God is not ignoring the poor. God is actually here, and where people think God would least likely be,
this is where God is. This is where God is. Yeah. And that's what's so stark about that piece, is that
it kind of makes you realize what you consider as holy is in the place of what society deems as incredibly
not holy. Well, and that sculpture that you
So, you know, that, you know, for those who are religious, you know, the son of God was homeless,
you know, had no place to lay his head. And so that's where holiness occurs.
even if you couldn't relate to it from a religious aspect, the way it would be able to translate to
others who did not have that religious perspective would be worse. Because even if not religious,
you do see, it's still, things that are considered religious still are show worth. Yeah, it's just like
you and me, same as we are, not others. Right, exactly. It would almost be nice to have
corporations wanting to say, we'd like to participate in your project. We will set aside 10 jobs for
10 people. We'll try to do that every six months. Wouldn't that be great? Yes. Wouldn't that be great?
Because we realize that if you have jobs, if you have income, that gives you power. It gives you dignity.
I mean, dignity is the fact that you can help yourself as well as be helped. And I think that's such
an important element. I mean, as an artist, I can't do that. I mean, in some ways, I can in a way.
But I mean, it's not a job, but it's participating. Maybe give you a sense of pride because you helped
do this. But for the corporations out there or people
Maybe you can participate because you don't have any relationship with art. Think about how creative
you could be by looking at this problem and coming up with creative solutions like offering jobs or
offering workshops that give people skills that will help them get jobs. You can extend yourself that
way and be part of this project by offering up that
element or something like that that I can't even think about. But I think jobs are important when we
think of homelessness, at least I think so. Do we want to display any of the dirtier or scarier parts
of being moved? Are you going to ask me a question? Us. Let me watch you put the idea out. The part
of being homeless that sucks.
We don't want to be in denial here. That's what I was sort of thinking from the very beginning. There's
such a tension there. It's always going to be with us. If we try to make it too pretty, it's going to
be sort of hypocritical-ish. We're not going to make this a twinkie. Right. So to see the reality of
it versus the
I think there's a fine line where you don't want to have denial at the same time you don't want to scare
people. So there's a fine line of what we try to do here. And like having two projects, there could
be that element where the documentation or the stories become part of it, but maybe in a different showcase,
perhaps, or
different arm of this project? But I'm not sure. I mean, I'm not sure I get what you're saying. I mean,
it's definitely a sucky reality. But I'm not sure that goes with the more than homeless concept that
we started out with, because so many of us, what we're afraid of is the dirty reality. That's what I'm
saying, just a piece of it. Just make it a piece of it. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I mean, I think what
we're trying to get people to see is beyond that, to see the people
as people. Right. Maybe it's like this real simple analogy. The glass is half full or half empty. It's
like people are going to look at it the way they want to look at it. And I'd like to look at that as
half full and go from there. You think of abundance, you create abundance. You think of lack, you create
lack. I am totally in that mindset of understanding. I think of the symbolism.
Well, I mean, maybe there are metaphorical ways of showing the sucking reality, which is maybe the kitchen
table is empty. Maybe there's no food there. That's right. That's right. I mean, there's, yeah, I didn't
want to get too extreme.
I think it doesn't really matter to me whether you're showing the positive side of people or the negative
side of the experience. For me, what's most important is the turn. How does this image turn people's
hearts? And so however we do that is what I really want.
I think that Jesus' piece does that so well because it puts
negative and the positive, quote unquote, in the same place, literally at the same moment, at the same
time. And that's what creates the turn. It's like, oh, you're seeing two things that are, in theory,
not supposed to be together. And by putting them together, it elevates. It elevates. And I don't know
how you do that artistically. That's your challenge, Joe. We're going to start.
If you do something with a spiral, one part of it can be the scary section. It's almost like wizard
vows, you know? One of the things that the kids thought of, one of the ideas they had was having a tree
with words of prejudice in the tree and then chopping the tree down. It's just so interesting how creative
they get with that.
that idea of, so the negative is paired with the taking, you know, knocking men down. I think you're
going to have to have several pieces. This is going to be an honor. All throughout the city, Joe, everywhere.
You can see just by these ideals of how, when you look at the scope, there's five, six, eight, 10, 12
that you can easily pick.
And what I'm trying to do is take as many as I can and see how they can really fulfill a lot of perspectives,
a lot of needs, a lot of thoughts. Making it simplest. I think it's one of the hardest things for an
artist to do something and make it simple. Because it's complex, isn't it?
But I always want to go back to the thought that when I was at a talk, the curator from the Metropolitan
Museum of Art in New York was giving a talk. And some of the audience asked, what makes a good work
of art? And my ears just kind of went up and down. He said, well, first, I got to like it. Then second,
and maybe most important,
Because every time I see it or look at it, I discover something new. So going back to making it simple,
but then when you walk up to it and realize that there's more into it than you first saw. And then you
want to really look and look and look and look. And then maybe come back again and say, it's like reality.
It's like peeling the consciousness
I was just saying, oh gee, I thought I saw that, but I really didn't. And I think that to me is a good
work of art that offers up that.
Well, you can have components. You can have components. Because really, it's important to have a piece
there. Because I do think that localizes it, though, too. It does. When you have it just in front of
a building that is there for the homes, it sort of puts everything right in that space.
Isolated within this space around you. No, totally. I mean, when we first talked, I thought this is
such a, I mean, so important that it does have a home. A home. It's outside of. Well, no, it shows it,
because you want to invite people there and be welcoming there. But as you have said, Helen,
having some other component that can be used as an educational tool or have another presence in the
community. Now, it could be something that's moved. It could be something that's static moved again.
Or it could be just another point, reference in the community. Because when it's central, people who
are always over here never see it.
I mean, with the consciousness over there, so whenever we're there, we see something. It just becomes
a little more involved in the complexity of living in a big city. Let's see. Yeah, this might be the
beginning and not the end. One of the things we talked about is this kind of kicking off, beautifying
Shalom as a center, but it
But it also, we could think about this as, how do we create this art throughout the city? Somebody suggested
the idea of maybe talking to one of the local churches to see if they wanted to maybe place the homeless
Jesus statue and bring that to their community. And there might be additional things that we could do. Gotcha.
The sky's the limit, as long as we can fund it, right, Joe? Right, right. Here's an idea that I've used
with projects. Get it on top of the garage. I mean, it could be part of this could be a sheet magnet,
piece of sheet magnet, that the art's on it, and you can take it, and you can move that around. And
because it's an art piece that's part of something bigger or something of that sort, those components
could be placed
all around different areas all the time that you find just metal and just slap it on. And it becomes
there for a while. Maybe on the water towers or something, because that's metal. With the side of the
warehouse on the beeline trail. Yeah. I am here. I'm over here now. That surprises you when you find
it. So there's a lot of different ways of coming up with
real solutions that I don't, you know, it's like, we'll see. I think maybe the hardest part is giving
the review committee, that we have a good review committee, made up of people from the city and arts
administration and people from Shalom and people who are homeless. But they may have a hard time like,
wow, I don't know,
I mean, it's going to be, in some ways, I think the hardest thing is not having enough of something.
Because it's such a big thing. It's great. It's a great beginning. Another image that just occurred
to me is the backpack. That's one of the ways that people are identified who are on the streets.
who aren't necessarily staying in a shelter in particular, is that their home is their backpack. And
all their things, all their stuff that we talked about earlier, that's where it is. They carry it on
their backs. That's an interesting metaphor, too. It seems like maybe part of it, too, is the idea
to identify someone with homelessness, but I think that's precisely the scary thing about it, because
I think people have a there-but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I mentality already. And so I don't think they
want to identify people experiencing homelessness. I think they want to see the differences. And maybe
we could even find a way to sort of exaggerate that. We might make it sort of more tangible
how close, you know, I don't know. Isn't that right? Hold on. No, no, but, you know, in saying that,
it's not like, well, one quick response. Some people say, get a job. That's something. Just get a job.
What's it worth? Lazy. I mean, have all these judgments, all these thoughts. Well, getting a job is
not that easy. You know, you have to have references, you have to, you know,
look good for a job. Especially if you don't know where to take a shower. Yeah. There's a lot of things
that make you know, parents just make a big part of hiring as well as your last job. And usually the
people having trouble getting jobs are the people who have incredible disability issues and trauma and
addiction issues. And so I would love that. I often say I would love that if laziness was the issue
with homelessness, I would love it because it would be so easy to fix.
You know, just a little extra motivation, a little drill sergeant behavior, and it'd be just fine. But
that doesn't work. Yeah. Actually, I think I do have this one. I wrote some more on that. I want to
thank you for bringing your son. My friend. Your friend. Bringing your friend. Thank you. It's pulling
up too many whiteboards. We have to keep racing.
Isn't it nice to be able to have a camera document? You can just email that to me and there you go.
The thing about materials, I was just looking at this, it was a scavenger hunt for materials, and I
was thinking about the fact that people are experiencing homelessness when they are not at Shalom or
at an overnight shelter, they're on the move
city and beyond. And I wonder if there's a way to invite them or involve them in scavenging for materials
that would be used. That was my idea. So literally, it doesn't have to be a scavenger, like the game
is scavenging. But just saying bring whatever you find or what you think would make a good material
to be used.
Some of these people that come to Shalom are already quarters. Maybe they donate some of their junk.
Some of them have their cars full of stuff.
And another image that comes to mind when Forest said the backpack, it made me think about tents too,
because a lot of these people, their home is a tent. Or strollers. Lots of people experiencing homelessness
with strollers. And bicycles. Before I was on staff, we did kind of a photo art piece where
where we gave cameras to different people who were homeless, and the theme was, what's home like for
me? And so they would take the cameras, and then they would take a photo of where their home was. So
we got all kinds of different perspectives, from tents to shelter beds to just all kinds of different
things. And I don't know, there's something interesting about that, too. But those are different things.
Well, all the places in the community that are hospice, right? The library, people's park, the courthouse
line, all the places where people go, right? Places that are welcoming. Yeah, but maybe institutionally
they're welcoming, but not necessarily the communities that
We're going all over the place, but that's the point. So I'm thinking now about the homeless Jesus bench
thing. And we were talking about sitting at the table. And I'm thinking about how the city is now moving
to remove the bench-like areas around the courthouse because they don't want people sleeping there.
So I don't know. Somehow a bench seems really symbolic of a lot of things.
Would there be an opportunity to land a speaker on it when it's done? Yeah. I don't know if there's,
the only thing we'd have to figure out is the city rules, because the city has an issue
I'm just checking on that to make sure there's no things that we can't, I'm not sure if we can. As it
occurs to me, I'm not sure if we can have any trouble other than falling. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just wondering
about if it is going to invite interactivity, whether you would be able to create paths. Because right
now, it's the fence. Yeah, we could certainly work with the fence and interact with it in the game.
But see, the beauty of something that you can't do, or what's hard to do, just spirals to be more creative.
Yeah. Sure. That's right. Like those trees, we have to have those trees that were required by the city
to be here. And so we'll have to figure out what else. So we have to work around those trees. So those
trees have to stay? They have to stay. OK, let's go.
You just have to make the sculpture bigger than the trees. We can make another tree. Make it a tree for him.
I think of a garbage bag to specifically cans and things like that. We have, there's a couple men that
I live on in Sixth Street, and we'll kind of on Sixth Street, Sixth Street Jackson, but we have a couple
of men that come and collect cans, and I just sit mine out for them, and that kind of represents it
in some way.
a lot of people around the city or even garbage bags. Yeah, with the garbage bags, they're either trying
to find a handful of street food or something like that. It's a gigantic tableau that's going to go
to the whole block of wall. There could be benches and trees and tables. If we have anything in the
sculpture that can be scrapped, it might be. We haven't even started talking about cardboard signs yet.
That could be a photography thing. Yeah, what if they were cardboard signs that said things that were
different from standard cardboard signs? Like, offer me a job?
Yeah. That's cool. What was that double message? You're expecting, you need a job, but I'm offering
you a job. You would never expect somebody else to do that, especially the way they
If you would just have middle-class, non-homeless people holding cardboard signs and say those things.
Well, there's actually a whole fundraising concept around that very idea where people say, I have a
home and I'm raising money for people who don't. And things like that. And they have cardboard signs.
Middle-class people.
I actually have a dream of us doing that in the city on Black Friday after Thanksgiving. I wish you'd
do that. Yeah. It'd be an interesting way of, we're using Kickstart as a way of funding this project.
Maybe it might be the majority of the funds for this project. But it would be interesting just to,
offer up people a sign saying, donate to the homelessness art project. And just see what it takes to
hold that sign up there for a couple of hours and see what happens. I mean, whenever you're on the street
collecting money or asking people for something, it is so different. And even when I do these projects
on the street, how many people don't even know? I have a 34-foot guitar. I can tell you that there are
people who walk by
Don't even look. Don't even see it. It's like, I'm not even there. It's like. They're afraid.
I don't know, because it's kind of like, that's not part of my life. They're on their little, especially
now with the eye films and stuff, they're just walking by and the world's passing by. They're on their
eye film. You know, you can do fundraising for this project. People can go. It's not like that.
people experiencing homelessness at their regular spots, you know, on their hood and stuff, and sit
with them with signs that say, you know, raising money for this art project. Sit beside them. That's
just a partial. Unfortunately, it made it sound a little like there was project money. I can't imagine.
I know you know that. Right, right.
It's reachable. I mean, that's why I have to think in terms of when I think about ideas.
That's the back of my head. I don't like to put it in front. But whenever you do anything, it's so important
with a good idea. Some people don't realize it. With a good idea, it's not really good unless you can
do it. So having a good idea, but if that's too expensive or it's not going to work. So good working idea.
The one thing I did see, I want to say it was New York, but I can't remember. I saw it on, I can't remember
the site either, it's been a few years ago, but there was like a photography project and they took cardboard,
they actually had homeless that held cardboard signs and it said normal things that they used to do.
to create a connection. You made a really good point. You said sometimes people, they don't want to
associate. They want that difference. And it's like, you have to bring them back. One of them was, he
scored so many touchdowns for his high school. It's like, how do you relate to that? Another one was,
I cried at my child's birth, just like you did, type thing.
They also had another project that tied into that, which was veterans. And it was a little bit more
serious than that. But they were saying things that changed their lives. But I really liked that tying
in something to connect you. Yeah. I had one experience where there was some atrocity happening somewhere.
And you saw this body. And all you saw were the shoes. And the person had Levi's.
with sneakers. And I looked at that. I said, that could be me. I mean, that could be anybody. But you
have that association with kind of a negative thing. But you do. You need that buy-in about, I have
a relationship with that. Right. Negative or positive is expected. Yes.
No. No, it's just lots and lots of words. You know, the way I work, as you're thinking of more ideas,
what I like to do is I'll just start sliding things. I'll just put them in little groups, like this
little group goes together. Well, this little group goes together. Or maybe I take something off that
group. It just becomes a way of, then another day goes by, and I'll look.
Wait a minute, I should add that one over here. It becomes kind of a process of moving things. And yeah,
it's fun. Yeah. You're great at that, Joe. Well, any more ideas?
on the same thing, it's kind of closing. And then we run them out. So as I understand, Shalom's going
to have another little brainstorming session with the residents there, or clients, or people. Guests.
All the works. Yeah, I mean, clients at Stone Belt Guests at Shalom. When is that? We haven't scheduled
it yet. Soon. Soon. Yeah.
And then I'll be collecting the other information from you. And then we'll compile it and you'll have
a list of all of what I have. I'd like to get contact information so maybe we can pass a piece of paper
around so I can get in touch with you about the next steps. Some of these may not, like we're doing
the More Than Homeless project, which is
is bigger than just this particular art project. So for example, that cardboard sign thing might become
a photographic project that we want to engage in. And so those are different. So I'm trying to create
a database of people interested in the home or the homeless kind of work. So if you'd like to be part
of that, as well as the art project,
Thanks, everybody. We appreciate you being here. Thank you for coming. And if you'd like to be on that
mailing list, just come on up and fill out your info right here and enjoy the rest of your day.