of John Goodhart, Maynard Pomato, and Michael Walley, an explosive ordnance demolition team of the United
States Navy, commanded by Chief Warrant Officer Gunnar Krebs, should blow up one ton of red art clay.
Location, ordnance demolition range, Crane Naval Ammunition Depot, Martin County, Indiana. Date, detonated
on February 17th,
1977.
The question is, has been asked, has been posed, why did we do this? Why do we blow up a ton of red
art clay? Who wants to answer that question? I thought it was fun. Fun? Lots of fun. It was fun.
I liked it. It was a lot of fun to do. The closest thing that I guess you could say would be it might
be a performance of some sort. Very temporary.
The quality that I always like is the aspect of having these people working with you and for you that
just have nothing normally to do with art. And even though they don't understand why the hell they're
doing it, they're having a good time and are getting involved in something that's outside their normal
life experience. For me, I guess a lot of people
The visual part of it was really kind of exciting. I mean, it had a lot of things in addition to the
visual. It had sound, it had feeling, feeling like tremors, you know, I mean, actual physical tremor
of the ground. Seeing this gigantic cloud that, God, how tall was it? 100 feet or so, I don't know.
100 feet in the air, like a red cloud is visually, to me, was very exciting, you know, especially when
you deal with
with clay as a material in a wet state all the time. And to see a ton of it up in the air, you know...
It didn't look like a ton of clay. Yeah, right. Yeah, it didn't. It didn't look like a ton at all. It
had nothing like it was... You know, when you think of a ton of clay, you think of weight, mass, density,
bag. You know, if you ever unloaded it, whichever button it has, if you ever unloaded a truck of clay,
you know what it's like. And all of a sudden, to see it up in the... almost floating in the sky is pretty neat.
It's visually a very exciting thing, I think. The other thing I thought that was kind of nice about
it was the, I guess, the real temporary quality of it. Both the visual thing and then the temporary
quality of it. The fact that also, for me anyway, it was temporary and it wasn't an object as such.
It wasn't an object that you labor over. It wasn't a pot.
piece of sculpture that you spent weeks and weeks glazing and firing and all that kind of stuff. I think
it would have been fun if we could have made it. It would have been like a Sunday afternoon picnic with
the explosion of the main event. All go out there and have a little picnic and have a big blow up and
stand around and cheer. But it would have been nice if we could have had a whole group of people out
there. Well, this one was too fast. Yeah, well like your first one.
It seemed like you were a part of it because you went out and helped me stack things up. This one, you
almost felt a little bit divorced from it. Although that really didn't take anything away from it, the
finished piece for me. But like you say, you missed a little bit of the fun. It was a little bit of
the experience. We built up the excitement the first time. The dramatic pause and whatnot. It took me
by surprise this time because when you went out there,
You know it was already stacked up. Look at it, that's that zip pile out there. That last time he was
already right out there with him. Bounced through the trail, helped stack the play up. Yeah, it's still,
yeah. There was a big difference between this one and the previous one. This one I think was visually
nicer. Bigger is better maybe. I don't know. In this case maybe it was. I'm not sure.
But it still was pretty exciting in terms of that aspect of it. Also along with the idea of having an
art form and an art event that goes outside the gallery and outside the artist's world. I like the idea
of having the tape in the public library and having it available to anybody that's crazy enough to sit
down and look at it for a period of time. It's just available to anybody that wants it at any time now.
I think that's another probably really important part about the piece too is
is number one that, well, it's not an object, but yet in a sense it is, and the fact that it is documented,
and it's there for anyone who wants to see it. Like you say, anybody who's crazy enough to go out and
do it. Yeah, the real exciting thing is the spontaneity of the explosion, the bomb, very female sort
of thing, but in a way here it is recorded permanently for anybody that wants to look back on it.
I think, you know, also,
Another important aspect of it, I guess, which we've touched on, was getting people outside of the art
community involved in it. I think I kind of got off and really enjoyed those guys a lot. Meeting them,
getting their interpretation of what was going on, their ideas. I think that what happens is, I personally
think those guys are crazy. Because here's a group of people who
deal with explosives for their career or job. They get hazardous duty pay. They deactivate or defuse
bombs, et cetera. And to me, that's suspect. I can't imagine anybody wanting to do that. And on the
other hand, I'm sure they think that here's a bunch of people that come out here with a ton of clay
and blow it up and get off on that. So it's kind of a mutually
We think each other's crazy, but yet I think we both learn to like each other, respect each other for
what we do. Yeah, they were involved with art and we got involved with it. I thought a little of the
side of humor or irony was the idea of these guys getting a hazard bonus pay for helping us make an
artwork. We might be so lucky. I think that's a nice touch.
Well, what else can we talk about, Bill? I think the documentation, like the video and the photographs,
are actually pieces of art, too. They're evidence of what happened, but they also can be a piece in
itself, an artwork in itself. So this thing could, a piece like this, while it's very temporary, has
residual effects.
Other pieces spring off of it. Like it gives birth to other pieces of art in a way. And perhaps even
other ideas. Who knows what might come of that. Like this will lead into something else perhaps. Any
other plan? Oh, no. Forge on. Forge on. Forge ahead, right. I don't know what to... I think something
else that's... One other thing that's kind of nice is the...
is the fact that, for me anyway, this is a collaborative piece. I could start off sitting around one
day, I think, over in the clay room. I don't remember exactly how, but just the idea of it. I think
my beer was involved. Yeah, maybe sit around having a few beers, and then the sign of something really
outrageous that you could do with this clay, and saying, well, let's blow it up. And then actually trying
to go through all the hassles of implementing that, like writing the companies, getting the Navy involved in it,
I think that points up another fairly important issue is the idea that an artwork of whatever sort it
is doesn't have to be incredibly serious. I think it is probably a good thing to stimulate the idea
that an artwork can be jovial and humorous, spontaneous, and just have to ultimately just feel serious.
I think you see that too, like in ceramics anyway, a lot of object making
It's very whimsical, very humorous, very personal. It's like people really have a sense of humor and
they exploit that in their work. I think we're all serious about it, but we had fun doing it. I had
a good time doing the thing. It's like there's nothing precious about it. Right. It's like a no man's
land down there. How big of an area is it? It's a test ground.
Oh, it's huge, yeah. It looks like a DMZ, you know, like all the branches are off the trees. Everything's
defoliated. Everything's defoliated. Yeah, it's just like a no man's land. There are bomb fragments
lying around, you know, stuff like that. It's a crazy place.
Yeah, I know it is.
I'm shaking like a leaf. It's so cold out here. That's it, boys. You got six minutes.
We had two people killed in this bunker a couple years ago. Didn't have a glass in front of the fort,
so actually we can't even lie to you today.
Yeah, really, it's not quite like checking a firetruck or anything.
Six minutes. Coming up.
15 seconds to go. God damn. That's really nice.
that was red heart the size of that devil all right that's a nice one
John, is this cathartic? It's getting off, man. Don't bother me. It's got a knife. It is. It is.
It is nice. Nice piece. You know what? My hands are cold. I can't believe the sound of that thing. What?
We were in that bunker, too. What would that be like out here?
Did you see the glass jump? I heard it.
No, there's nothing. You might find a little hole in the ground and that's about it. Last time... You
have a souvenir paper bag. You might find a few little shards. Yeah, there were a few little fragments.
Not much. It's a lot breezier today than it was last time, isn't it? The last one just hung out there
a long time. It's also blown across.
Yeah, it was about 48 bags, I think it was. Whatever. Pink clay, red clay, whatever you want to call
it. Harder clay. About 190 pounds. Any particular way that you did it? No. Standard, more or less standard
procedure out here. It's a non-electric type shooting. With a non-electric blasting cap and safety fuse.
Detonating cord wrapped around the main charge.
Do you have much control over how the shape of the explosion or the cloud or? Yep. The way we set the
thing up is we pyramid the clay so you would get the mushroom type things back instead of spreading
them. When we started the shot there was no control on that. We started them as far as wind is going
to go other than getting time on the site to get it before we end. Why did you do it? Why did you do
it? For him.
That's a hell of a way to make a living, you know it?
I don't understand. I don't understand. Why you guys do that? Well, we don't only do surface. We're
all called about Navy dollars too. Jump out of airplanes.
I'll hold my comments. I don't understand what you're blowing the play for. When I went to the arts
department, they gave us a pencil and some crayons.
The only thing that remains constant is the service. That doesn't change. That's about four more months
it can change all at once.
Got one on the way
Yeah, I think so. I appreciate it. Did it come out like you wanted it to? Oh, yeah. I don't know, but
it's beautiful. What if there was a mess up on the nine, I'll say it. It sure was fun, man. Oh, we'll
put it that way. Beautiful. Beautiful. Yes, sir. Well, that could have worked out better. Yeah, that
would have been way better. We'll see you all later. Thank you. You going to the cafeteria? Yes, sir.
Take it easy.