WEBVTT

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- Good evening, everyone. I'd like to call the order the October meeting of the Board of Zoning Appeals.

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- Ms. Nestor, Joe, and to get us started, would you call the roll? Sure. Margaret Clements, Skip Daly

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- here. Guy Loftman here. Jeff Morris here. Pamela Davidson here. OK, so we have four members in person

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- and a quorum. OK, could you please introduce the evidence for tonight? I'd like to introduce the following

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- items into the evidence of Monroe County Development Ordinance as adopted and amended.

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- The Monroe County Zoning Ordinance and Subdivision Control Ordinances is failing. And I lost it. Chris

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- Johnson, the Monroe County Comprehensive Plan. OK, we have four members and is now joining the Monroe

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- County Comprehensive Plan is adopted and amended. The Monroe County Board of Zoning Appeals rules of

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- procedure as adopted and amended in the cases that were legally advertised and scheduled for hearing

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- on tonight's agenda.

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- Kate, do we have a motion to approve the evidence as introduced? I move to approve the evidence

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- as introduced. Second. It's been moved and seconded to approve the introduction of evidence. A vote

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- yes is a vote to approve. Skip Daly. Yes. Guy Loftman. Yes. Jeff Morris. Yes. Pamela Davidson. Yes.

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- Motion is approved. Four to zero.

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- Hey, for the approval of the agenda, I would like to recommend that we make a motion to move

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- the administrative business to the end of the agenda for tonight so that we can have a longer discussion

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- without holding everybody up here in the room that's come to hear their petitions. Second.

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- OK, just for clarity, for everyone's sake, the only administrative business was the BZA rules of procedure.

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- And so there's a motion and a second to move the administrative business below the new business and

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- start with old business. A vote yes is about to move administrative business to the end of tonight's

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- agenda. Guy Laughman? Yes. Jeff Morris? Yes. Pamela Davidson? Yes. Skip Daly? Yes. Motion is approved

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- four to zero.

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- We have three sets of minutes to approve tonight, April 1st, May 6th and June 3rd, 2026. If we could

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- get a motion for approval. I move that we approve both. Is it three or two? Three. Three. The minutes

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- of April 1st, 2026 of May 6th, 2026 and also of June 3rd, 2026. Second.

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- OK, it's been moved and seconded to approve the April 1, May 6 and June 3rd, 2026 meeting minutes. About

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- yes is a vote to approve Pamela Davidson. Yes. Skip Daley. Present. God. Yes. Hey, Jeff Morris. Yes.

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- OK, motion is approved three to zero.

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- Okay, under old business, we will start with VAR-26-28. This is the Brown Eco Area 2 15% slope encroachment

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- variance to chapter 823. Mr. Myers. Thank you. Several of you have already heard this case as it is

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- old business. We heard it in our last meeting on August 26th. But I will be giving a short presentation

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- because we do have one board member who was absent during that last meeting.

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- So this is VAR-26-28, the Brown Eco Area 2, 15% slope encroachment variance to Chapter 823.

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- It's one 5.03 acre parcel in Bloomington Township, Section 26. And we're at 3701 East Mables Way. The

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- request is a buildable area variance, 15% slope in the Eco Area 2. The purpose is to construct a new

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- 986 square foot residential accessory structure with two floors in an area with slope greater than 15%.

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- This property is zoned conservation residential and located in eco area two as part of the Lake Griffey

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- watershed. Chapter 823 says slope greater than 15% on property in eco area two is protected from any

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- land disturbance activity. That includes the removal of vegetation. The proposed structure will not

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- exceed the maximum height of 30 feet for residential accessory structures in the CVR zone. The proposed

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- structure will contain a bathroom, but no bedroom or kitchen facilities, therefore it does not classify

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- as a dwelling.

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- The petition site is located as lot number nine of the Lanham Ridge Estates Section Two, which was recorded

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- on August 23rd, 1997. And the first iteration of the environmental constraints overlay was adopted by

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- the Monroe County Board of Commissioners on January 23rd, 1992. So on the screen, we have a screen snip

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- of an updated site plan provided by the petitioner. So on the screen is a staff calculation using the scale

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- function of the site plan, just to confirm the square footage of the structure. So we have seen a bit

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- larger of a structure as more details have come through for the proposal from the last time. I believe

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- it was around 600 square feet when we last heard this, but showing the site plan here, we have a 730

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- square foot structure and then these two rectangles on either side, both totaling 128 square feet. So

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- approximately a total of 986 square feet.

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- for the structure. Staff also utilized the site plan to calculate distances just for the record and

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- for your reference. We are 44 feet from the edge of the deck of the existing residence and we are about

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- 17 feet on the north side encroaching into the 15% slope regulation and then we're about 27 feet into the slope

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- a 15% slope on the south side of this structure as seen on the screen. On the screen now we have a snippet

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- from the county development ordinance. This is chapter 823, given the purpose statement of the environmental

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- constraints overlay. And we can come back to this, it's also included in the packet. Chapter 823-5B

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- is the specific standards related to this request.

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- It has several different regulations for area two in the eco areas. Number one and number two are the

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- ones that are being addressed this evening through this variance request. And that is related to the

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- disturbance of slope greater than 15% for structures, as well as the inevitable removal of vegetation

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- within that same slope area for the structures location.

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- We also have a page dedicated to the definitions of practical difficulties for the terms of the variance.

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- We can come back to this if we need to reference it. It's also included in the packet. This is the location

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- map and the site conditions map on the right showing the 15% slope in red. This is the site conditions

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- map on its own screen to give you a little bit more detail and it's zoomed in to

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- the existing residents, the existing detached structure. And here we have the eco area outlined in the

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- hatching. This is all area two. And then just some aerial pictometry here of the petition site and the

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- existing structures there. You can see a few small structures here on the ground. That is the approximate

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- location of the existing septic system.

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- photographs here, and then on the ground photographs of the site itself. And you can kind of see where

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- the tree line begins, the slope starts to taper down in degrees. So on the screen now we have the original

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- letter provided by the petitioner. This was seen in the last petition hearing as well as in the packet.

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- And here we have the new site plan that was authored by a licensed land surveyor showing that proposed

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- location of the structure. And here on the next page we have a zoom in showing that structure and the

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- delineation of the 15% slope lines here to better identify exactly how much of an encroachment we're

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- seeing with this structure. And then of course we have the original plat that indicates lot number nine.

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- in this Lennon Ridge Estates Section 2 subdivision. These last two pages are staff's original attempt

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- to locate alternative locations on the property that would not encroach into the 15% slope.

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- So these are a bit outdated now because the structure has increased a bit in size and there's also been

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- a little bit more information provided regarding the septic location as well as the alternative septic

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- location that can be seen on the new site plan provided by the land surveying company. So we also received

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- letters of support. So I'm gonna leave this one on the screen while I give you some hard copies that

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- we received after the packet publishing. And while you're doing that, Mr. Chair,

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- Point of order. Just a reminder that all of the testimony and the presentation provided in the last

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- time that the board heard this is still in play for being on the record.

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- We're also going to put some hard copies over there on the side table for the public to look at as well,

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- but they will all be shown on the screen at least for a moment.

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- So that brings us to staff's recommendation, and this was the same recommendation we held at the last

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- hearing. Staff recommends denial of VAR-26-28, citing practical difficulties have not been demonstrated.

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- For the strict application of the county development ordinance, there are other areas on the property

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- suitable for the construction of the proposed residential accessory structure that do meet buildable

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- area. And I'll take any questions.

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- like there's any questions so let's go ahead and turn to the petitioner or petitioner's representative.

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- Hi there. If you could sign in and then I'll swear you in. Okay. If you could raise your right hand

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- and state your name.

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- Okay. Thank you. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? I do. Okay.

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- You'll have 15 minutes to share your petition with us. Let me first start with the issue about the size

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- because it's really the same as what I was talking about before. It might relate to the stairs because

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- we've got, it's basically 25 by 25 square feet, two stories, but the stairs.

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- or on either wing. So that might've had something to do with it, but it's really basically the same

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- structure that I talked about when I was here on August 26th. As I said, on August 26th, the location

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- that we're trying to put it in is where the largest tree in our property died, literally unexpectedly.

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- So by putting it there, we only have to take out one other tree

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- The alternative location that we're talking about, which is closer to that shed, would require us to

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- take out at least four very healthy trees, although obviously it's not in the 15-degree area. So we're

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- concerned about taking out healthy trees, and that's one benefit for us, but of course the other benefit

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- is that it's much closer to the house. And I'm 70, my wife is 65.

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- And as we get older, we're really concerned about the distance that we'll have to go in order to get

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- there. But what I've added this time that I didn't have last time is the survey that was done by Eric

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- Deckard. So he shows exactly where it is at. And I do at least want to point out that at least for the

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- left side, the slope is only 16 degrees. So it's not like it's,

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- terribly far off from the 15 degree, although certainly on the right side it is, I think, 21 degrees.

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- The other thing which I added is I have a letter from our architectural review committee. We're in Lanham

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- Ridge Estates and we have very detailed covenants and restrictions. I don't know if you know Frank Pruitt

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- But Frank Pruitt was a geology professor. He was the one that plotted out our entire neighborhood. He

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- was extraordinarily concerned about the very thing that you're concerned about, sedimentation and soil

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- going downhill. So they had to go through all of those requirements to make sure that our facility fit

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- what effectively was Frank Pruitt's design way back

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- when he did it 30 years ago. And of course there were five members on the architectural review committee

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- who also thought that the project was fine from their standpoint. I gave you a letter from one neighbor

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- and the only reason I did that neighbor is our house is the second to the last house in the neighborhood.

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- So that's the only neighbor who will go

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- past our house because our house is actually on a private drive. So only our house and our neighbor's

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- house are the only two on the private drive. So of course they didn't have any problem with it at all.

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- And then the third letter I gave you and this is really because of the concern about sedimentation and

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- erosion and admittedly I don't know anything about that at all.

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- So one of my goals when I left here yesterday was to find an expert who would help to make sure that

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- we minimize any kind of erosion. And let me just say, I spend time in Lake Griffey too. I can actually

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- walk to Lake Griffey from my house and it takes about 45 minutes, but there is a path. So I appreciate

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- your concern about Lake Griffey because it's certainly one that I share. So the third letter that you have,

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- from Art Trinidad. He used to be the director of planning in St. Louis, Obispo County, California. His

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- job was really to deal with people who were building homes on hillsides like you see in California all

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- the time. He's done this quite a bit, so he's going to help

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- me work with my builder to make sure that we have appropriate sedimentation and erosion control. I think

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- you can see on the survey which we got from Eric Decker where the silt fence would go, but I guess this

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- is a long way of saying, yeah, I understand the concern. For us, this does make sense to put it there.

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- It means we'll have to take down fewer trees and we too are committed to disturbing the soil as little

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- as possible. The alternative location just simply doesn't provide the same views because the whole purpose

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- of this is to get it far enough so that you can take advantage of really a very incredible ravine that

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- we have in the back of our property. And that's a real problem with the alternative view compared to

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- this view.

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- So with that, I'll ask my wife if she wants to say anything. If you could come to the podium, I'll swear

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- you in. If you could state your name. Yeah, and sign in. Diane Brown. Hey, can you raise your right

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- hand? Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Yes.

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- Thank you. You'll have the remainder of it. You can move the microphone down so it's pointing. I know.

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- Thank you. What tippy toes. I just wanted to, he's written pretty thorough on what he added, but I just

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- wanted to say I was the president of Lanham Ridge neighborhood there for almost 20 years.

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- And I was a stickler on everything. So it's like he didn't get away with anything even. So I just want

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- to let you know that he's been in lock stop. I've stocked everything. I mean, he's had so many surveyors

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- coming out and everything else. So it's like he's done his due diligence. I will say that. And we are really

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- pretty anal about preserving the whole neighborhood and how it is, you know, and property values and

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- everything, as well as the topography and all of that. So I just want to add that we're not somebody,

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- or he's not somebody who's just like, oh, and build this pretty thing. We have been anal for 20-some

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- years since we built in there. So I just want to let you guys know that a little bit about the background

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- and how much we safeguard what is going on there. And last, please just give him a little case so he

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- can get out of the house.

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- Did you sign? Did you sign it? I don't think she. Mr. Brown, you've got eight minutes left. Was there

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- anything else you wanted to add? No, otherwise, because I just was going back over what we did before.

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- And as I said,

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- The location, our preferred location is really driven by the fact that the biggest tree on our property

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- literally showed signs of dying in August. But then it was almost like Providence says, look, this is

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- a great place to put it. We're going to get out of your way. Because it only means I got to take down

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- one. It is a big tree. But it's not bigger. Well, it is bigger than the other four, but not

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- bigger than any individual for, you know what I'm saying, is it's a lot less damage to a lot fewer trees.

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- And just, you know, I gotta say for me, I mean, those trees have been there way before me, and they'll

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- be there way after me, and I don't really wanna take out any more than I have to, so. And I am, I mean,

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- you know, I like Lake Griffey, so I will do whatever I can to prevent erosion and sedimentation from

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- getting to it.

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- Other than that, no, I guess I'm done because it looks to me like you've got a lot to do. So unless

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- you have questions. Yeah. OK, thank you. Before you sit down, do any members of the board have any questions

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- for Mr. Brown? Do you have a larger surveyors plan of this? Is that what you're holding? Probably.

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- Let me. Yeah. If you don't mind, I just would like to see it in this bigger format.

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- There seem to be several. Hopefully two copies. But there's actually a second page. Do you want to ask

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- questions on that, Mr. Loeffner? Or do you want me to go ahead and to public comment while you're in

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- here? Go ahead to public comment. I'll come back if I want to. OK. If you want to go ahead and have

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- a seat, Mr. Brown, we'll turn to public comment and then bring you back up if there's any questions.

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- I'm good. I've looked. I've seen it.

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- Do any members of the public here in the room wish to speak in favor of this petition? If so, please

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- come up to the podium. Anyone online who wish to speak in favor of this, please raise your virtual hand.

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- Anyone here in the room who wishes to speak against this petition, please come to the podium. Or anyone

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- online who wishes to speak against, please raise your virtual hand.

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- They see no one. We will close public comment and come back to the Board of Zoning Appeals for conversation

00:21:43.974 --> 00:21:50.981
- and a motion. Well, I've had a chance to look at this larger drawing and it doesn't cause me to want

00:21:50.981 --> 00:21:57.919
- to ask Mr. Brown any more questions. OK, so we had reserved the opportunity to do that. But this is

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- very helpful because it's a lot bigger. I want to say I appreciate your attention to detail and seeking so much.

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- expert advice and 20 years the homeowner president I can understand. It's a child. I can get that as

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- well. And tree removal, we care about all those things. But I really appreciate your scientific approach

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- to the whole decision making. I want to say that quickly. Do you have any comments? Sure. I'll renew

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- my assertion from a pair of months ago that

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- based on the previous testimony that practical difficulties, I was swayed, have been met. Mr. Lofman,

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- any comments from you? Well, I'm sorry, but I don't think practical difficulties have been met. I think

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- preserving trees is an admirable goal, but

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- This basically entirely encroaches, and well, so maybe I would ask Mr. Brown a question just to make

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- sure I'm understanding that the square area of the house, which I think I can you, that area is 25 by

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- 25. Yeah, the big part. And then there are steps on both sides.

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- Well, effectively, it's just to balance it out. So the steps are only on the right, not on the left.

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- But I'm sorry. OK, so I didn't want it to look unbalanced. Yeah, you want it symmetrical. Right, so

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- the stairs are on the right. On the left is just additional space, which we'll put a bathroom in. OK,

00:23:57.277 --> 00:24:01.662
- well, so will the room on that side, one side will be

00:24:01.986 --> 00:24:10.450
- Will the steps be inside or outside? Inside. Inside. Inside. Inside. So there will be a roof on both

00:24:10.450 --> 00:24:18.915
- sides. Yes. Yes. Yes. Correct. So it will be 25 by 25 plus the roofs on both sides. Correct. And how

00:24:18.915 --> 00:24:27.631
- big are the roofs on both sides about? Do you know? Well, each is 6 feet 4 inches. So 12 feet 8 inches.

00:24:27.631 --> 00:24:31.486
- And then I guess whatever the roof should be.

00:24:31.746 --> 00:24:42.381
- The total square foot that was presented to us subtract 625. But that's 25 times 25. Right. It's a 25

00:24:42.381 --> 00:24:52.913
- by 25 structure plus the extra. So whatever number he gave, Mr. Myers gave us in the beginning. 986.

00:24:52.913 --> 00:25:01.150
- Okay, 986. I missed that number. It's just a lot of encroachment in 15% slope.

00:25:02.690 --> 00:25:14.774
- Trees live and die and a tree dying doesn't disturb the slope. Taking out a dying tree doesn't disturb

00:25:14.774 --> 00:25:26.505
- the slope. Putting a new building that's almost a thousand square feet is. And I don't, people want

00:25:26.505 --> 00:25:30.846
- to do that a lot. People come to us.

00:25:31.682 --> 00:25:40.929
- fairly often because they want the building where they want the building, because it makes it a much

00:25:40.929 --> 00:25:49.627
- more appealing property. It makes it a much more useful property. But that doesn't get me over

00:25:49.627 --> 00:25:58.966
- my responsibility to not allow almost 1,000 square feet of disturbance of 15 degree and above slopes,

00:25:58.966 --> 00:26:01.438
- some of which is over 20%.

00:26:01.570 --> 00:26:15.218
- So I am not convinced that, so I find I cannot support the petition. May I ask staff, how far of that

00:26:15.218 --> 00:26:29.534
- building again encroaches on the 15% slope? I just heard Mr. Lofgren say the entire structure, is that so?

00:26:30.530 --> 00:26:37.994
- So I will go back to a page on the slideshow and it's also in the packet here on the screen. We have

00:26:37.994 --> 00:26:45.533
- some additional measurements that staff calculated utilizing the scale on the certified plan provided

00:26:45.533 --> 00:26:53.293
- by the land surveyor. On the top of the structure, which would be to the left if you're looking straight

00:26:53.293 --> 00:26:59.870
- at it, you can see that I estimate a measurement from the 15% slope line where it begins

00:27:00.354 --> 00:27:07.843
- to back towards the edge of the rear of the structure. And that measures about 17.10 feet encroaching

00:27:07.843 --> 00:27:15.186
- into the 15% slope on the north side or the left side of the structure. Looking to the south or the

00:27:15.186 --> 00:27:22.676
- right side of the structure, right where the 15% slope line begins back to the rear of the structure,

00:27:22.676 --> 00:27:27.742
- we're looking at about 27.8 feet of encroachment into the 15% slope.

00:27:29.602 --> 00:27:37.342
- Thanks. I hadn't seen that detail, and I'm incorrect to say there were 925 feet. Have you calculated

00:27:37.342 --> 00:27:45.235
- the square feet of encroachment? So I did not calculate the total square feet of encroachment, per se,

00:27:45.235 --> 00:27:52.899
- but we did calculate the square footage of the structure itself showing on the screen here, showing

00:27:52.899 --> 00:27:58.110
- about 128 square feet for each. I'll refer to them as the stairwell

00:27:58.338 --> 00:28:08.464
- sections and then 730 approximately for the structure itself, the middle. Right. And of that 986 square

00:28:08.464 --> 00:28:18.201
- feet, it looks like something maybe 80 percent is in 15 degree or greater slope. Would that be a 65

00:28:18.201 --> 00:28:27.646
- percent looks from the wave? That's actually that's that's what Eric Decker said was 65 percent.

00:28:28.098 --> 00:28:39.052
- Okay, 65% of the 900. Give or take, give or take from. Yeah, I know we're not talking. Some of that's

00:28:39.052 --> 00:28:50.113
- only 16% slope. I mean, it's not. Some of that 16% slope and some of it is 21. True. And we're looking

00:28:50.113 --> 00:28:57.630
- at, Mr. Daley, are you saying 65%, was that your estimate? About 65%.

00:28:57.762 --> 00:29:07.493
- is in 15 or greater, I would estimate a very small portion, but I'm not looking at anything you don't

00:29:07.493 --> 00:29:17.320
- have access to. I would say a smaller portion is beyond that 20. Right, and if, you know, I'm not good

00:29:17.320 --> 00:29:24.094
- at fractions, much less on the fly, but maybe something like 600 feet.

00:29:24.322 --> 00:29:34.043
- of encroachment and at least 15% slope would be my rough estimate. Do we have a, does that sound about

00:29:34.043 --> 00:29:43.481
- right? You're not the math. Six to 700, six to 700. Arithmetic in your head than I am. I'm not. I'm

00:29:43.481 --> 00:29:50.654
- interested that some of that is 16% and some of it is 21% and you're saying

00:29:50.754 --> 00:29:59.772
- The smaller percentage is the 21% from what you're seeing. Would you agree with that, dear staff?

00:29:59.772 --> 00:30:09.159
- I'm sorry, we used to repeat that. Out of the 65%, now we've decided that some of it is 16% slope and

00:30:09.159 --> 00:30:18.454
- some is 21%, but the smaller portion is the 21%. More of the slope disturbance is on the 16% end. Is

00:30:18.454 --> 00:30:19.742
- that correct?

00:30:20.290 --> 00:30:26.954
- I can't confidently give you 100% answer on that without showing actual calculations on the plan set,

00:30:26.954 --> 00:30:33.487
- but that sounds approximate. Thank you, Mr. Myers. Thank you. Mr. Brown, are you building this on a

00:30:33.487 --> 00:30:39.954
- foundation, or are you building it up on pillars like you would see when you think of a treehouse?

00:30:39.954 --> 00:30:46.487
- I'm sorry. It would be on a foundation. OK. Thank you. Any further questions? Because pillars would

00:30:46.487 --> 00:30:48.382
- be higher than your 30 feet.

00:30:51.170 --> 00:31:03.712
- Any further questions for Mr. Brown? No, thank you for helping clarify that. Thank you. Well, I do appreciate

00:31:03.712 --> 00:31:16.025
- finding out, getting, oh, here, this drawing is, thank you for making it available. We still have something

00:31:16.025 --> 00:31:19.902
- like 600 feet of encroachment in,

00:31:20.002 --> 00:31:33.385
- in protected land above a major lake in Monroe County. And I'm glad that I'm not exaggerating the problem,

00:31:33.385 --> 00:31:44.766
- but I think the problem is still substantial and I'm not prepared to support the petition.

00:31:49.250 --> 00:32:02.554
- Any other comments or? Someone expecting me to speak? I was convinced after the last presentation, and

00:32:02.554 --> 00:32:17.150
- nothing has changed my mind, that the challenge to the environment would be much greater with his other options.

00:32:18.338 --> 00:32:29.079
- Mr. Chairman, although it looks as if he can't, that he could just shift it to the left, there's challenges

00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:39.323
- with the septic, thank you, with the septic and whatnot. So there was really no option and when he was

00:32:39.323 --> 00:32:46.782
- showing, when the pictures were being shown last presentation of the trees

00:32:46.946 --> 00:32:57.370
- where they exist, the removal of the other trees would be more detrimental to the earth than to locate

00:32:57.370 --> 00:33:07.795
- it elsewhere than the plan that they had to build the foundation. So that's where I'm coming from. May

00:33:07.795 --> 00:33:16.094
- I ask another question of staff, and I know they're conferring, so maybe I would.

00:33:16.290 --> 00:33:27.026
- Mr. Lofman is quite rightly concerned about erosion and Griffey and so on, and so are these good people.

00:33:27.026 --> 00:33:38.068
- Is it standard erosion, the silt fence, all the procedures? What do we know about that? Is there a standard

00:33:38.068 --> 00:33:43.998
- protocol or is there an extraordinary protocol? Or can we

00:33:44.258 --> 00:33:52.239
- impose any conditions based on that or is it what the county requires done and done? I don't know the

00:33:52.239 --> 00:34:00.063
- answer to that. Well, I'll say that probably would not advise to require them to get a local permit

00:34:00.063 --> 00:34:07.966
- through stormwater because the state made some changes that we cannot be more strict than the state.

00:34:08.162 --> 00:34:15.315
- So because they're not going to disturb more than an acre, they're likely not going to meet the threshold

00:34:15.315 --> 00:34:22.131
- of needing a stormwater permit. However, we can just ask them to show erosion control on their plans

00:34:22.131 --> 00:34:29.216
- for building permit and improvement location permit and make sure that they meet beyond what the minimal

00:34:29.216 --> 00:34:34.750
- requirements would be in any area for steep slope, but additional requirements as

00:34:35.138 --> 00:34:43.747
- you know, recommended by stormwater staff or something. I don't know. That's that's an excellent answer.

00:34:43.747 --> 00:34:52.439
- Would you be amenable to that if if of course that were required to be on the plan as she's just recited?

00:34:52.439 --> 00:35:00.802
- Yes. That's good to know. I know that there are erosion control requirements during construction. Are

00:35:00.802 --> 00:35:04.574
- there erosion control requirements that would

00:35:05.634 --> 00:35:12.778
- that would come into play. So after construction is done and it's all built and that there would still

00:35:12.778 --> 00:35:19.714
- be additional erosion control or is that only during construction usually? I would say probably for

00:35:19.714 --> 00:35:26.720
- this scope of work, it would just be during construction. But I mean, their contractor shouldn't put

00:35:26.720 --> 00:35:33.725
- it in a way such that it would erode away after construction. That wouldn't be good for the building

00:35:33.725 --> 00:35:35.390
- foundation or the land.

00:35:36.930 --> 00:35:45.889
- I think the construction certainly should prevent, should protect the building from erosion. And everybody

00:35:45.889 --> 00:35:54.429
- would want that. But the post construction doesn't have any particular erosion control features other

00:35:54.429 --> 00:36:01.630
- than protecting the building that would be in play as I understand it. Is that right?

00:36:02.626 --> 00:36:08.919
- Right. I mean, they would have to typically on any site you want to see vegetation growth within a certain

00:36:08.919 --> 00:36:14.801
- number of days starting to come up. So we don't want it like bare soil after they're finished. They

00:36:14.801 --> 00:36:20.271
- need to final grade seed, straw, et cetera. But that would all be on the construction plans.

00:36:20.271 --> 00:36:21.918
- I would imagine. Thank you.

00:36:22.754 --> 00:36:30.050
- And I also want to know, you know, as the BZA considers cases, I know we have a very long docket for

00:36:30.050 --> 00:36:37.708
- tonight, but there is a little bit of a difference as we draft reports to the BZA when you're considering

00:36:37.708 --> 00:36:45.293
- a vacant lot for an initial use versus a lot that has a single family residence and maybe some accessory

00:36:45.293 --> 00:36:52.734
- structures already. And then they're proposing additional accessory structures. I guess I just want to

00:36:52.962 --> 00:36:59.985
- Differentiate between the idea that we always have to the onus is on the BZ air staff to always find

00:36:59.985 --> 00:37:07.009
- an alternate location whereas you could say like functionally the site is a Single-family residence.

00:37:07.009 --> 00:37:14.032
- This is not a taking to deny them an accessory structure by any means So I just want to put that out

00:37:14.032 --> 00:37:20.638
- there that I think sometimes we get stuck in this like well There's no other place to put this

00:37:25.250 --> 00:37:32.494
- It's just a denial, and it doesn't go on the site. You know what I mean? So I know that no one likes

00:37:32.494 --> 00:37:39.666
- to think about that, but that's just something I want to put out there since it's always discussed.

00:37:39.666 --> 00:37:46.838
- There may not be an alternate site, and that's not dispositive. Because if the answer for this site

00:37:46.838 --> 00:37:54.153
- is no, then the answer for this site is no. And it would make us feel better if we could say, move it

00:37:54.153 --> 00:37:54.942
- over here.

00:37:55.170 --> 00:38:07.374
- but we can't say that in this case because the Browns are convinced it wouldn't work and they've convinced

00:38:07.374 --> 00:38:19.806
- me that wouldn't work. They can't build it any other place. I'd like to ask Mr. Brown a couple of questions.

00:38:24.354 --> 00:38:34.693
- This is this is something that has come up. That that in because we have a new zoning ordinance. And

00:38:34.693 --> 00:38:45.031
- we've had many people come before us who bought the land and built and had a plan for it, which they

00:38:45.031 --> 00:38:53.630
- didn't come down and get approved, but it would have been consistent with the plan.

00:38:55.842 --> 00:39:03.957
- And then the ordinance changes and they suddenly couldn't do it. And they'd begin construction, they'd

00:39:03.957 --> 00:39:12.072
- put in a driveway or they'd, you know, they were... And we say we aren't gonna change the rules in the

00:39:12.072 --> 00:39:20.266
- middle of your game, okay? So I guess really a question to staff is, does our new development ordinance

00:39:20.266 --> 00:39:23.102
- affect whether this could be built?

00:39:26.978 --> 00:39:34.217
- We did have, so before the adoption of the county development ordinance that occurred on December 18th,

00:39:34.217 --> 00:39:41.456
- 2024, the eco chapter actually had three areas. Area three contained regulation for slopes greater than

00:39:41.456 --> 00:39:48.416
- 18%. So it was a little bit less restrictive. If you were in area three, you could build up through

00:39:48.416 --> 00:39:51.966
- 15% all the way till you got to the 18% threshold.

00:39:52.706 --> 00:39:59.709
- I don't have the data immediately available to me to verify if this property was located in area three

00:39:59.709 --> 00:40:06.644
- or if it's always been an area two. But given its proximity from Lake Griffey, it is possible that it

00:40:06.644 --> 00:40:13.443
- was an area three. But it's hard to say because I don't have that data in front of me. So if it was

00:40:13.443 --> 00:40:20.446
- an area three, they would have had up to 18% until they hit that threshold where they need a variance.

00:40:21.410 --> 00:40:35.790
- And if it was 18%, we would be talking about a much smaller encroachment into a steeper than 18%. It

00:40:35.790 --> 00:40:51.166
- would be 10 or 15%. It'd be 150 feet, not 600. I'm just making up numbers, but something much smaller. Hmm.

00:40:53.058 --> 00:40:59.224
- Interesting. Interesting. Anybody going to make a motion? I keep going back to the fact that they could

00:40:59.224 --> 00:41:05.331
- build this in a different spot, but they would have to take out more trees. Yes. And that concerns me.

00:41:05.331 --> 00:41:11.556
- So does it also, with the alternate spot suggested, mean you'd had to move your septic or couldn't tell?

00:41:11.556 --> 00:41:17.782
- No, no, that's the whole, no, no, because remember there were two alternative spots. The one we excluded

00:41:17.782 --> 00:41:22.110
- because of that. So no, the other one would not. Right. Okay. Thank you.

00:41:23.266 --> 00:41:34.892
- And the patch they're looking at is the side of a felled tree, which I can absolutely understand the

00:41:34.892 --> 00:41:46.403
- symmetry of that as well. Do we have a motion? I'm going to move variance 26-28, the brown eco area

00:41:46.403 --> 00:41:52.158
- to 15% slow encroachment variance to chapter 823.

00:41:52.610 --> 00:42:00.051
- I should say as I make this motion, staff is completely right. A treehouse is a completely optional

00:42:00.051 --> 00:42:07.493
- choice. It need not be there. I can understand the beauty. I live on a wooded ravine myself. So I'm

00:42:07.493 --> 00:42:15.009
- mindful that it's a very optional kind of arrangement in every single way. But I'm also compelled by

00:42:15.009 --> 00:42:22.078
- what we just heard that under the former requirements, only a very small area of the structure

00:42:22.210 --> 00:42:32.444
- much smaller than we feared would have been subject to the old rules? We don't know, because Mr. Myers

00:42:32.444 --> 00:42:42.678
- doesn't know whether it would have been subject to that regime or not. I assume it's not something you

00:42:42.678 --> 00:42:51.422
- can figure out on the fly that would take some research. So if we've changed the rules,

00:42:51.842 --> 00:43:01.453
- That affects my thinking. But we don't know if we've changed the rules. There's a possibility that we've

00:43:01.453 --> 00:43:10.606
- changed the rules, but we haven't. Based on the record before me, I can't assume that we've changed

00:43:10.606 --> 00:43:19.850
- the rules. And if there's anything in the world Mr. and Mrs. Brown don't want, it's putting this off

00:43:19.850 --> 00:43:21.406
- another month to

00:43:22.114 --> 00:43:33.336
- to look into that, but it might affect my vote. I don't want to say it would affect my vote, but it

00:43:33.336 --> 00:43:44.894
- certainly might, because that makes it a much, much smaller encroachment. Does your motion still hold?

00:43:45.314 --> 00:43:55.003
- Yes, but I want to amend it just slightly to say and with very strict erosion control measures that

00:43:55.003 --> 00:44:04.789
- the petitioner has just agreed to, including vegetation at all. I want to just amend it. Still okay?

00:44:04.789 --> 00:44:09.246
- I'm going to ask our director to repeat that.

00:44:15.650 --> 00:44:26.551
- Just subject to the condition of the extraordinary erosion control measures. Our director has a wondrous

00:44:26.551 --> 00:44:35.998
- way of taking what we say and making it sound good. You're right. Give me just one second.

00:44:48.834 --> 00:45:09.250
- I found some language in the stormwater ordinance that makes me feel better about conditioning this.

00:45:09.250 --> 00:45:14.910
- So the motion is to approve

00:45:15.106 --> 00:45:24.949
- VAR-26-28, the brown eco area to 15% slope encroachment variance to Chapter 823 with the condition that

00:45:24.949 --> 00:45:34.604
- the petitioner show redundant erosion control measures on the application for an improvement location

00:45:34.604 --> 00:45:42.270
- permit to be reviewed and approved by stormwater and planning staff. Second. OK.

00:45:42.786 --> 00:45:53.075
- It's been moved and seconded with the approval and condition. A vote yes is a vote to approve. Guy Loftman?

00:45:53.075 --> 00:46:02.506
- No. Jeff Morris? Yes. Pamela Davidson? Yes. Skip Daly? Yes. Okay. Motion is approved three to one.

00:46:02.506 --> 00:46:04.126
- Thank you. Okay.

00:46:04.418 --> 00:46:12.439
- Item number two on the agenda, VAR-26-29B has been withdrawn by the petitioners, so we'll go ahead and

00:46:12.439 --> 00:46:20.382
- move on to new business. The first three items are grouped together. That's VAR-26-31A, 31B, and 31C.

00:46:20.482 --> 00:46:29.451
- This is the Pendleton East State Road 46 front yard setback various to Chapter 805. The riparian area

00:46:29.451 --> 00:46:38.421
- setback to Chapter 823 and the buildable area special flood hazard area to Chapter 813. So permission

00:46:38.421 --> 00:46:47.390
- to speak. Yes. Before I ask, I have a couple of questions. One first is a staff assistant director is

00:46:48.002 --> 00:46:56.837
- Have all the conditions been met for this petitioner in terms of notification? Yes. Okay. Second question.

00:46:56.837 --> 00:47:05.425
- Is there anybody in the audience or online here to object to this petition? If you're here in the room,

00:47:05.425 --> 00:47:14.590
- could you raise your hand? Or if you're online, please raise your virtual hand if you object to this petition.

00:47:16.994 --> 00:47:27.146
- Seeing none and considering the recommendation for approval and the due diligence of staff, I'm going

00:47:27.146 --> 00:47:37.597
- to make a motion to call the question and eliminate the debate on variances 26-31 alpha through Charlie.

00:47:37.597 --> 00:47:45.758
- Second. Okay. The first motion on the table is for a call to question to VAR dash

00:47:45.922 --> 00:47:54.702
- 26-31A, a vote yes, is a vote to call to question, and then a subsequent vote will be needed with a

00:47:54.702 --> 00:48:03.570
- motion for either approval, denial, or even continuance. And that's A, B, and C. And B and C, sorry.

00:48:03.570 --> 00:48:12.613
- Yes. Thank you. Call to question is for VAR-26-31A, B and C. A vote yes is a vote to call to question.

00:48:12.613 --> 00:48:15.774
- Guy Loftman? Yes. Jeff Morris? Yes.

00:48:16.002 --> 00:48:26.962
- Yes. Skip Daly? Yes. Motion is approved four to zero. Mr. Chairman, if I may, I would like to motion

00:48:26.962 --> 00:48:38.355
- based on the staff's recommendation and due diligence of conditions being met that variances 26-31 alpha

00:48:38.355 --> 00:48:41.502
- through Charlie be approved.

00:48:44.706 --> 00:48:53.100
- It's been moved and seconded to approve VAR-26-31A which is the front yard setback variance at Chapter

00:48:53.100 --> 00:49:01.739
- 805. B, the riparian area setback to Chapter 823 and 31C which is the buildable area special flood hazard

00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:10.622
- area to Chapter 813. A vote yes is a vote to approve all three variances. Jeff Morris? Yes. Pamela Davidson?

00:49:11.330 --> 00:49:18.572
- Yes. And I just want to say to the petitioner, I'm very sorry that a tree destroyed your home. That

00:49:18.572 --> 00:49:25.815
- is an epidemic in our county, is it not? And I just feel bad for you. I just want to say that. Yes.

00:49:25.815 --> 00:49:32.478
- The answer is yes. Skip Daley. Yes. Guy Hoffman. Yes. OK. Motion is approved. Four to zero.

00:49:34.050 --> 00:49:43.011
- OK, moving on to item number four, which is also recommended for approval. This is VAR-26-33 Johnson

00:49:43.011 --> 00:49:52.415
- on North Shore side yard setback various to Chapter 805. Mr. Chair, may I have the floor? Yep. Mr. Myers,

00:49:52.415 --> 00:50:02.174
- can you please confirm that? Notification in accordance to the code has been sent out by the petitioner. Yes.

00:50:02.434 --> 00:50:10.985
- All right, with that being said, is there anybody in the room or online which is here to contest this

00:50:10.985 --> 00:50:19.368
- petition, variance 26-33? Please make yourself known. Okay, we do have one person online who wishes

00:50:19.368 --> 00:50:28.254
- to speak against this petition, so let's go ahead to Mr. Myers then to run through the full presentation.

00:50:31.522 --> 00:50:40.841
- This is VAR-26-33, the Johnson on North Shore Side Yard Setback Variance, Chapter 805. It's a one acre

00:50:40.841 --> 00:50:50.070
- parcel in Benton North Township. It's in Section 35. It's located at 9550 East North Shore Drive. The

00:50:50.070 --> 00:50:56.766
- property is requesting a side yard setback from Chapter 805. This setback

00:50:56.898 --> 00:51:02.337
- variance is required in order to construct an eight foot privacy fence stretching 285 feet. The fence

00:51:02.337 --> 00:51:07.776
- will be constructed along the south property line, which is shared with the Lake Lemon Marina. Fences

00:51:07.776 --> 00:51:13.162
- over six feet in height typically require a improvement location permit from the planning department

00:51:13.162 --> 00:51:18.548
- and a permit from the building department as well. The petition site is zoned residential one and is

00:51:18.548 --> 00:51:22.174
- listed as lot three A of the North Shore subdivision amendment two.

00:51:22.882 --> 00:51:29.366
- The requirement for a side yard setback in this plat and this zoning district is 15 feet. According

00:51:29.366 --> 00:51:35.527
- to the county development ordinance, property owners may utilize either the setbacks on a plat

00:51:35.527 --> 00:51:42.011
- and subdivision or the setbacks provided by the zoning district. Because the fence requires an ILP,

00:51:42.011 --> 00:51:48.690
- the structure must abide by the property setbacks and buildable area. On the screen you can see figure

00:51:48.690 --> 00:51:52.062
- one that shows the elevation difference between the

00:51:52.162 --> 00:51:58.344
- existing residents on the petition site, which is on the north side of the white line surrounded by

00:51:58.344 --> 00:52:04.773
- the yellow lines for the approximate property line and the Lake Lemon Marina activity on the south side

00:52:04.773 --> 00:52:10.398
- where you can see the boats being stored and other things related to the marinas activity.

00:52:13.954 --> 00:52:19.615
- According to the petitioner, the fence needs to be taller than six feet in order to adequately provide

00:52:19.615 --> 00:52:25.331
- separation from the commercial activity of the neighboring marina. Additionally, the existing residence

00:52:25.331 --> 00:52:30.992
- on the petition site sits at an elevation of approximately 658 feet, while structures and boat storage

00:52:30.992 --> 00:52:36.654
- on the marina property sit at an elevation of 652 feet and less. There is an existing chain leak fence

00:52:36.654 --> 00:52:40.446
- that staff believes is owned by the Lake Lemon Marina that is on the

00:52:40.770 --> 00:52:48.319
- same property line but on the marina side that according to the petitioner provides no real screening

00:52:48.319 --> 00:52:55.868
- and privacy between the two uses. On the screen now we have table two from chapter 805 that shows the

00:52:55.868 --> 00:52:59.198
- side yard setback from the residential zone.

00:52:59.618 --> 00:53:06.911
- So that's shown as 10 feet. But then again, on the plat itself, it shows as 15 feet. So the petitioner

00:53:06.911 --> 00:53:14.133
- can use utilize either one, but their setback is required nonetheless because the request is to place

00:53:14.133 --> 00:53:21.568
- the eight foot privacy fence right on the property line on the petition site side. Here we have a couple

00:53:21.568 --> 00:53:27.870
- of regulations from this county development ordinance. This is where we pull information

00:53:28.002 --> 00:53:36.021
- with respect to fences and the threshold of six feet. We can come back to that if we need to. It's also

00:53:36.021 --> 00:53:43.809
- in the packet. Now on the screen we have the location map as well as the zoning map. And then now on

00:53:43.809 --> 00:53:51.134
- the screen we have the comprehensive plan map as well as the site conditions map. Photographs.

00:53:51.490 --> 00:53:57.215
- A few street view images here showing the existing driveway that provides access to the property as

00:53:57.215 --> 00:54:03.170
- well as the you can see the marina and the chain link fence off to the south or left in the photographs

00:54:03.170 --> 00:54:09.124
- here. Now on the screen you see an aerial pictometry showing the distance between the marina's activity

00:54:09.124 --> 00:54:14.334
- as well as the single family residence and you can see the chain link fence there as well.

00:54:15.618 --> 00:54:22.145
- This is an image taken from the Marina property, looking back towards the existing residence on the

00:54:22.145 --> 00:54:28.803
- petition site. You can see the chain link fence there in the background a little bit. And then now on

00:54:28.803 --> 00:54:35.396
- the screen you can see most recent staff visit photographs showing the chain link fence. You can see

00:54:35.396 --> 00:54:41.662
- the property marker stakes there as well with the pink flags that show along the property line.

00:54:42.050 --> 00:54:49.395
- and you can kind of see the elevation difference with respect to these photographs as well between the

00:54:49.395 --> 00:54:56.954
- petition site being the residential use and the marina to the south. Now on the screen we have the letter

00:54:56.954 --> 00:55:04.084
- from the petitioner stating the request. This is also included in the packet. And now on the screen

00:55:04.084 --> 00:55:11.358
- we have the site conditions, or excuse me, the proposed or conceptual site plan that shows the length

00:55:11.746 --> 00:55:17.836
- and location of the proposed eight-foot privacy fence. All right, that brings me to staff's recommendations.

00:55:17.836 --> 00:55:23.423
- Staff recommends approval of VAR-26-33, seeing that practical difficulties have been met. Neither a

00:55:23.423 --> 00:55:29.066
- six-foot privacy fence at the property line nor an eight-foot fence that meets the side yard setback

00:55:29.066 --> 00:55:34.430
- requirement will provide the same level of privacy as an eight-foot fence at the property line.

00:55:34.626 --> 00:55:39.710
- The eight foot fence at the property line provides separation from commercial activity of the neighboring

00:55:39.710 --> 00:55:44.602
- Marina, and the additional two feet in height of the fence is required due to the change in elevation

00:55:44.602 --> 00:55:49.447
- between the two properties. Practical difficulties have been met in that the same fence, if two feet

00:55:49.447 --> 00:55:54.483
- shorter, would meet the code requirements. Increasing the fence height to eight feet does not contradict

00:55:54.483 --> 00:55:59.279
- other CDO requirements, except that it requires a permit and it must meet setbacks. I don't know if

00:55:59.279 --> 00:56:00.478
- I'll take any questions.

00:56:03.714 --> 00:56:11.485
- Go ahead and turn to the petitioner. Thank you, Mr. Myers. Is there a petitioner here in the room who

00:56:11.485 --> 00:56:19.485
- wishes to speak or if you're online? Mr. Rieck, I see your hand raised. You were speaking in opposition,

00:56:19.485 --> 00:56:27.180
- I believe. That is not the petitioner, correct? The petitioner is Chris Johnson. Okay. Is he online?

00:56:27.180 --> 00:56:32.894
- He is online, but I don't see a hand raised. And there's also two of them.

00:56:33.922 --> 00:56:44.870
- Okay. Mr. Johnson, if you wish to speak, please raise your virtual hand and we'll have tech services

00:56:44.870 --> 00:56:56.251
- make you a presenter. Okay, there we go. Tech services, if you could allow Chris Johnson to speak. Drew,

00:56:56.251 --> 00:57:03.838
- are you able to promote Chris or do we need tech services to do that?

00:57:04.034 --> 00:57:11.168
- Yes, I believe he is now able to unmute. Okay, Mr. Johnson, you should be able to unmute and you'll

00:57:11.168 --> 00:57:18.444
- have 15 minutes to present your case to us. Oh, I'm sorry, I need to swear you in first. If you could

00:57:18.444 --> 00:57:24.222
- raise your right hand and state your name, please. It's like you're still muted.

00:57:42.082 --> 00:57:51.556
- Yeah, there's an echo, but I think that's here in the room. So Mr. Johnson, if you could raise your

00:57:51.556 --> 00:58:01.409
- right hand and state your name. Okay, do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth? We have

00:58:01.409 --> 00:58:11.262
- four members and is now exiting. Mr. Johnson, do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth?

00:58:11.682 --> 00:58:19.014
- I do. Okay, you'll have 15 minutes to present your case to us. Well, yeah, we're basically trying to

00:58:19.014 --> 00:58:26.419
- put a privacy fence in from all the debris that is on the Marina side. The reason we did that is just

00:58:26.419 --> 00:58:33.897
- for privacy. It dips down on that side. So that's why I went with the eight foot fence. Because if you

00:58:33.897 --> 00:58:41.374
- see from the paperwork that Mr. Myers showed, I think it's probably about a four foot drop from there.

00:58:42.242 --> 00:58:48.889
- to where Mr. Reek's house is. So I think there's gonna be like a four foot difference. And it makes

00:58:48.889 --> 00:58:55.603
- a, I'd gone out there and put up some paneling to see the difference between a six and an eight foot

00:58:55.603 --> 00:59:02.251
- privacy fence. And it made a significant difference. That's why we went through the process to move

00:59:02.251 --> 00:59:09.098
- forward with the eight foot fence. I mean, that's, I don't know if there's additional information that

00:59:09.098 --> 00:59:11.358
- would be helpful to make Mr. Reek

00:59:11.650 --> 00:59:19.799
- We're willing to work with them and show him, because he's the neighbor that bought the property adjacent

00:59:19.799 --> 00:59:27.488
- to this unit. And we'd be happy to show him what it would look like. I assume he's probably worried

00:59:27.488 --> 00:59:35.253
- about the view. But after we put the panels up and looked, it didn't block the view, it just blocked

00:59:35.253 --> 00:59:38.174
- all the items going on at the marina.

00:59:41.730 --> 00:59:47.627
- Okay, thank you, Mr. Johnson. We will turn to public comment now, and if anybody speaks against this

00:59:47.627 --> 00:59:53.700
- petition, you'll have five minutes to come back and offer a rebuttal if you choose to do so. All right,

00:59:53.700 --> 00:59:59.831
- thank you. Thank you. Do we have anybody here in the room who wishes to speak in favor of this petition?

00:59:59.831 --> 01:00:05.670
- Anyone online who wishes to speak in favor of this petition, please raise your virtual hand. Anyone

01:00:05.670 --> 01:00:10.750
- here in the room who wishes to speak against this petition, please come to the podium.

01:00:13.666 --> 01:00:22.623
- online who wishes to speak against this petition, please raise your virtual hand. Okay, tech services,

01:00:22.623 --> 01:00:31.407
- if you could promote Mr. Rick to presenter. Hey, Mr. Rick, if you could unmute now, I will swear you

01:00:31.407 --> 01:00:40.103
- in. Okay, there we go. Good evening, everyone. Can you hear me? Yeah, can you raise your right hand

01:00:40.103 --> 01:00:43.582
- and state your name? I can. Eric Greek.

01:00:44.386 --> 01:00:51.410
- Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? I do. Okay, you'll have three

01:00:51.410 --> 01:00:58.166
- minutes to talk to us. Yeah, I think the challenge here or the issue from my perspective is just the

01:00:58.166 --> 01:01:05.056
- impact to the sideline, right? So as the neighbor to the north, the value of the property is dominated

01:01:05.056 --> 01:01:11.277
- by the view of the lake. By their own admission, right? A six to an eight foot fence creates

01:01:11.277 --> 01:01:13.150
- some substantially addition

01:01:13.538 --> 01:01:21.371
- additional privacy, or at least some screening to the activities in the marina, but it also substantially

01:01:21.371 --> 01:01:29.131
- impacts my view. And just the differential two feet, the impact to me versus the benefit to the neighbor

01:01:29.131 --> 01:01:36.595
- in terms of shielding, I guess is not not square in with me in terms of the impact and what a person

01:01:36.595 --> 01:01:41.694
- is able to actually not see when the view of lots of the marina from

01:01:42.498 --> 01:01:49.445
- The property there that's in front of me doing the shielding is you can see over a six foot fence or

01:01:49.445 --> 01:01:56.392
- see over an eight foot fence when you're on the deck and enjoying the lake, the view of the lake. So

01:01:56.392 --> 01:02:03.339
- that's my fundamental objection is just the impact to the sight line, that incremental two feet, the

01:02:03.339 --> 01:02:10.974
- fence that you're looking at there is about five feet. So we're talking about three feet over the top of that.

01:02:11.970 --> 01:02:20.509
- And does that substantially materially impact any privacy gain over impact to my view and property

01:02:20.509 --> 01:02:29.220
- diminishment for which I bought the property just this spring? So my analogy is essentially going on

01:02:29.220 --> 01:02:37.931
- a cruise and buying a balcony view, but only getting a porthole view, right? As folks started to try

01:02:37.931 --> 01:02:41.726
- and erect things to impact the view, right?

01:02:41.858 --> 01:02:48.942
- quite a benefit for me to be able to see the activity in the marina. I feel like I have a marina environment,

01:02:48.942 --> 01:02:55.576
- be able to see the activity at the pump in the lighthouse, as well as be able to see the slip activity

01:02:55.576 --> 01:03:02.339
- for which I'll have a boat in, and also be able to see people come and go, they may be trying to connect

01:03:02.339 --> 01:03:06.718
- with. So that's my view in opposition to the variance as requested.

01:03:08.610 --> 01:03:16.757
- Thank you, Mr. Reek. Mr. Johnson, since there was... Can I ask Mr. Reek a question first? May I? Mr.

01:03:16.757 --> 01:03:24.823
- Reek, are you still there? I am. May I ask this question? We heard Mr. Johnson right before you say

01:03:24.823 --> 01:03:33.051
- that he would be happy to hold up panels of the eight feet to see how that does impact your view. Are

01:03:33.051 --> 01:03:35.390
- you open to that experiment?

01:03:36.546 --> 01:03:45.781
- Or has he suggested that to you? No, not to me. I wonder if that might then you would know for sure

01:03:45.781 --> 01:03:55.017
- how that impacts you because there is a slope down where that fence is. So I can see the commercial

01:03:55.017 --> 01:04:04.252
- activity in a very significant way. I just wondered if that would ameliorate your concern and maybe

01:04:04.252 --> 01:04:05.822
- continue this if

01:04:06.114 --> 01:04:15.716
- That's a way to have neighbors who are going to live next to each other decide if it really is an issue,

01:04:15.716 --> 01:04:24.953
- if what they feared is true. Mr. Johnson, you'll have five minutes if you choose to offer a rebuttal

01:04:24.953 --> 01:04:28.062
- to Mr. Reek. Feel free to unmute.

01:04:36.226 --> 01:04:43.689
- Mr. Johnson, did you wish to offer a rebuttal? Okay, it looks like you're unmuted now. You'll have five

01:04:43.689 --> 01:04:51.080
- minutes. Thank you. Yeah, I guess I'm going back to what the lady just spoke of is that there's a four

01:04:51.080 --> 01:04:58.327
- foot difference. So it's really not an eight foot fence. A blockage is gonna be a four foot from his

01:04:58.327 --> 01:05:03.422
- vantage point. And I am willing to work with him to take a look at it.

01:05:03.650 --> 01:05:10.983
- And that was a concern of ours when we did it, but we felt that it wouldn't block the view of the lake

01:05:10.983 --> 01:05:18.529
- for him to see anything. And just because of all the items that are against the fence and just the noise,

01:05:18.529 --> 01:05:25.790
- it would definitely give some privacy for the owners of this house. So that's what we're looking for.

01:05:26.562 --> 01:05:33.280
- And I'm happy, like I said, to have a conversation. And like I have four panels I could bring out there,

01:05:33.280 --> 01:05:39.935
- I can show them the fence that it's going to be a really nice custom fence that's going to be installed

01:05:39.935 --> 01:05:43.198
- and just give that privacy that lake owners covet.

01:05:51.842 --> 01:05:59.023
- Mr. Johnson, would you be open to the idea of continuing this petition to next month so you could have

01:05:59.023 --> 01:06:06.065
- a conversation with Mr. Rieck and try to work something out before then? The problem with that is we

01:06:06.065 --> 01:06:13.177
- haven't scheduled to put the fence in. I guess my other question is if we did this six-foot fence and

01:06:13.177 --> 01:06:20.288
- we pushed it back off of the land where it should be, I mean, I guess we would push it up against the

01:06:20.288 --> 01:06:21.822
- fence to drop it down

01:06:22.786 --> 01:06:30.985
- So if we pushed it back, it would still be two foot up in the air and it would be a six foot fence which

01:06:30.985 --> 01:06:38.794
- would have the same blockage for him. Is that correct? Are you following me? Based on the maps that

01:06:38.794 --> 01:06:46.603
- Mr. Myers showed, it goes from, right. And I don't know if he can kind of talk about that. Right, I

01:06:46.603 --> 01:06:52.382
- think that was a question for staff and the question was a six foot fence

01:06:52.514 --> 01:07:00.536
- would be permitted, correct? That's right. A six foot fence at the property line would not require a

01:07:00.536 --> 01:07:08.637
- variance. A six foot fence up the slope away from the property line would also not require a variance

01:07:08.637 --> 01:07:16.976
- because a six foot fence does not require a permit. So you can place it anywhere on your property. Okay.

01:07:16.976 --> 01:07:21.662
- And if I may, Mr. Chair. Yeah. I believe the point of what

01:07:22.274 --> 01:07:32.820
- the petitioner is saying is the view while he would like to work something out, it's within his legal

01:07:32.820 --> 01:07:43.262
- right already to essentially have that view blocked by having the legal sized fence or the permitted

01:07:43.262 --> 01:07:51.326
- sized fence rather at a higher elevation up that slope. So it's almost a moot

01:07:52.066 --> 01:08:00.337
- point. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Johnson. I'm going to close public comment and bring this back to the BZA

01:08:00.337 --> 01:08:08.527
- for discussion. I appreciate it. I think I'm in agreement that if you could do it, if you don't need

01:08:08.527 --> 01:08:16.798
- a permit to block the view the same way, moving it down to the property line doesn't affect Mr. Reek.

01:08:17.378 --> 01:08:25.455
- Do we have a picture that shows, I don't know where Mr. Reek's property is. I think you had one that

01:08:25.455 --> 01:08:30.014
- showed the neighbors a little farther out than this one.

01:08:45.954 --> 01:08:53.307
- So on the screen now we have aerial pictometry of the two properties in question, along with the marina

01:08:53.307 --> 01:09:00.519
- to the south. So immediately to the north of the marina, just north of the chain link fence, which is

01:09:00.519 --> 01:09:07.731
- where my cursor is, is the petition site. Mr. Johnson is the representative for that. And then to the

01:09:07.731 --> 01:09:11.902
- north of that is Mr. Rieck's property. I can also show you

01:09:12.002 --> 01:09:21.388
- a different map as well that shows both properties. That's sufficient. That's what I wanted to understand.

01:09:21.388 --> 01:09:30.687
- This is a deception of my vision, but is Mr. Rieck's property sitting higher than Mr. Johnson's property?

01:09:30.687 --> 01:09:36.126
- It looks like from that photo. Is that true? According to the

01:09:36.578 --> 01:09:49.009
- contour data that's now shown on the screen. It looks like the south edge of Mr. Rieck's residence sits

01:09:49.009 --> 01:10:01.321
- at 662 elevation and on the looks like the south side of the property that Mr. Johnson is representing

01:10:01.321 --> 01:10:04.190
- is at about 658. That's

01:10:04.386 --> 01:10:13.662
- you know, with the caveat that these contour lines are exactly accurate after the construction of these

01:10:13.662 --> 01:10:22.671
- residences and such. It's amazing technology, Mr. Myers. Any other comments from members of the BCA?

01:10:22.671 --> 01:10:31.590
- Well, I think I'm redundant with perhaps with Mr. Daley, but if you could build a fence 10 feet off

01:10:31.590 --> 01:10:33.374
- your property line,

01:10:33.474 --> 01:10:42.145
- creates a terrible maintenance problem for that stretch in between, but they could do it. If they could

01:10:42.145 --> 01:10:50.815
- do that, it would mean there's no difference for Mr. Reek if he does something he doesn't need a permit

01:10:50.815 --> 01:10:59.486
- for or if he does this. This is a much more practical solution for Mr. Johnson that I don't see has any

01:10:59.650 --> 01:11:18.166
- actual impact on Mr. Reek's property. So I'm comfortable with approving that petition. I move to approve

01:11:18.166 --> 01:11:22.046
- variance 2633 Johnson

01:11:22.178 --> 01:11:32.629
- on North Shore side yard setback variance to Chapter 805 9550 East North Shore Drive. I second it. OK,

01:11:32.629 --> 01:11:43.284
- it's been moved and seconded to approve VAR-26-33, which is the Johnson on North Shore side yard setback

01:11:43.284 --> 01:11:47.038
- variance to Chapter 805. A vote yes.

01:11:47.138 --> 01:11:56.896
- is a vote to approve the side yard setback petition for an eight foot fence along the property line.

01:11:56.896 --> 01:12:07.137
- Pamela Davidson. Yes. Skip Daley. My vote is yes, but I hope that the petitioner will engage with further

01:12:07.137 --> 01:12:16.702
- communication with the individual that that has some challenges. Right here here. Guy Lofman. Yes.

01:12:17.218 --> 01:12:24.051
- Jeff Morris? Yes. Motion is approved four to zero. Thank you, Mr. Johnson. We will move on now to items

01:12:24.051 --> 01:12:30.686
- number five and six on the agenda. That's VAR-26-34A and B. This is the Pritchard front yard setback

01:12:30.686 --> 01:12:37.322
- variance to Chapter 805 and the Pritchard minimum lot size variance to Chapter 805. So it looks like

01:12:37.322 --> 01:12:43.892
- there is one of these that has a recommendation for denial. So we'll go ahead, Mr. Brown, with your

01:12:43.892 --> 01:12:45.534
- presentation. Thank you.

01:12:45.826 --> 01:12:52.131
- The purpose of this is to build a 25 by 26 residential carport on the property. The subject property

01:12:52.131 --> 01:12:57.811
- has frontage along South Harmony Road which is considered a major collector road according

01:12:57.811 --> 01:13:04.054
- to the thoroughfare plan. Chapter 805 states that the front yard setback for a major collector road

01:13:04.054 --> 01:13:10.608
- shall be 35 feet from the edge of road pavement as right of way has not been dedicated on this property.

01:13:10.608 --> 01:13:13.854
- So the residential carport is proposed to be placed

01:13:14.114 --> 01:13:21.132
- 27 feet back from the edge of pavement, thus has an encroachment of eight feet into the front yard setback.

01:13:21.132 --> 01:13:27.630
- Furthermore, the property is zoned residential one, which has a minimum lot size of one acre, which

01:13:27.630 --> 01:13:34.129
- this property does not meet. Now chapter 805 does state that if all other development standards are

01:13:34.129 --> 01:13:40.757
- met, including setbacks, then a rezoned lot can be under that one acre minimum lot size. However, due

01:13:40.757 --> 01:13:43.486
- to the aforementioned front yard setback,

01:13:44.002 --> 01:13:53.709
- this condition is not required and thus this variance is required. So here is a image that was created

01:13:53.709 --> 01:14:03.321
- showing the setback as well as showing a proposed redesign of the carport that might result in it not

01:14:03.321 --> 01:14:13.310
- encroaching into the front yard setback in question. Here is the location and zoning map of the property.

01:14:14.626 --> 01:14:24.200
- as well as the comprehensive plan map and site conditions map. And the images shown here show the lot

01:14:24.200 --> 01:14:33.869
- itself as well as the area of the proposed carport where the covered boat and RV are located. And this

01:14:33.869 --> 01:14:41.566
- image shows its distance back from the road in question. And here is the proposed

01:14:41.698 --> 01:14:49.399
- And here is the site plan that the petitioner has stated. You'll note that it says the distance to the

01:14:49.399 --> 01:14:57.026
- road center is 37 feet. However, due to the right of way not being dedicated, we do measure back from

01:14:57.026 --> 01:15:04.578
- the edge of pavement for setbacks rather than from the center line. As well as images of the carport

01:15:04.578 --> 01:15:09.438
- itself. And so staff recommends denial of the front yard setback

01:15:09.858 --> 01:15:15.956
- As practical difficulties have not been demonstrated, the petitioner could simply relocate or redesign

01:15:15.956 --> 01:15:21.877
- the proposed structure to meet the required front setback. However, we do recommend approval of the

01:15:21.877 --> 01:15:27.916
- minimum lot size variance as practical difficulties have been demonstrated. The subject property just

01:15:27.916 --> 01:15:34.014
- cannot be enlarged without undergoing an administrative type E subdivision with a neighboring property

01:15:34.014 --> 01:15:37.566
- to undergo a lot line shift. And I will take any questions.

01:15:41.922 --> 01:15:48.426
- Thank you, Mr. Brown. Let's go ahead and turn to the petitioner then, since there aren't any questions.

01:15:48.426 --> 01:15:54.681
- Do we have a petitioner here in the room who wishes to speak? Okay, I see Mr. Pritchard online. Can

01:15:54.681 --> 01:16:01.060
- we make Mr. Pritchard a presenter? Okay, Mr. Pritchard, you should be able to unmute your microphone.

01:16:01.060 --> 01:16:06.814
- There you go. So if you could state your name and raise your right hand, I'll swear you in.

01:16:08.066 --> 01:16:17.432
- Brad Pritchard. Okay. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? I do.

01:16:17.432 --> 01:16:26.889
- Okay. Present your case to us. Okay. Uh, the first comment I have is, um, if you could go back to where

01:16:26.889 --> 01:16:36.345
- you showed the property lines, not my drawings, but your drawings. Uh, so the property line shown there

01:16:36.345 --> 01:16:37.982
- is incorrect. Um,

01:16:38.690 --> 01:16:48.610
- property line and is off by about 15 feet. See the small shed there? That's actually about 10 feet inside

01:16:48.610 --> 01:16:58.156
- my neighbor's yard. My property line starts about the tree and extends straight back. So the proposed

01:16:58.156 --> 01:17:08.638
- relocation that you showed does not work because then that encroaches on my offset from my neighbor's property.

01:17:11.842 --> 01:17:21.742
- Beyond that, this is a structure. If it was needed, it could easily be removed since it's a simple carport.

01:17:21.742 --> 01:17:31.092
- And already I'm parking vehicles there all the time. Those reside there consistently, except for when

01:17:31.092 --> 01:17:38.334
- we're out using them. So all I'm really proposing is to put a cover over them.

01:17:41.442 --> 01:17:49.879
- Okay, thank you, Mr. Pritchard. Any questions from members of the BZA for Mr. Pritchard? I have a question

01:17:49.879 --> 01:17:57.764
- for staff. As I look at that picture from the side where you can, right, that one, it is very close

01:17:57.764 --> 01:18:05.807
- to the road. Safety concerns? Are there accidents in that area? Is there a lot of traffic? Because it

01:18:05.807 --> 01:18:10.302
- looks, from the long shot, pretty close to the roadside.

01:18:11.042 --> 01:18:19.292
- which is the reason for the setback variance. That one right there looks very close. Do we ever find

01:18:19.292 --> 01:18:27.543
- out about things like that, traffic safety? We do have a traffic report. I can check and just see if

01:18:27.543 --> 01:18:34.078
- there's any instances of wrecks on this road. I just wondered. Okay, I'll look.

01:18:36.226 --> 01:18:46.627
- Thank you. If I could speak up to that. I've lived here since 1989 and I've never had a vehicle in my

01:18:46.627 --> 01:18:57.844
- front yard. We've had several across the road where people run over my mailbox, but never one that encroached

01:18:57.844 --> 01:19:06.206
- in my property. I think I'm happy for you. Any other questions for Mr. Pritchard?

01:19:07.362 --> 01:19:17.444
- Let's close public comment then. I'm sorry, let's open public comment and see if there's anybody here

01:19:17.444 --> 01:19:27.329
- in the room who wishes to speak in favor of this petition. If so, please come to the podium. Anyone

01:19:27.329 --> 01:19:36.126
- online who wishes to speak in favor? Heidi Owens, how are you? Former member of the BZA.

01:19:36.418 --> 01:19:44.159
- I'm good, thank you. I'm good. Yes, I have a comment in favor. Okay, could you raise your right hand

01:19:44.159 --> 01:19:51.976
- and state whether you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, or nothing but the truth? I do. Okay,

01:19:51.976 --> 01:19:59.947
- thank you, Dee. You'll have three minutes. All right. I live out farther past this property on Harmony,

01:19:59.947 --> 01:20:06.078
- so I drive, I drive past it a lot. And I stopped in and I looked around because

01:20:06.466 --> 01:20:14.642
- It seems to me to be a very reasonable request to put a carport over those two vehicles, which are always

01:20:14.642 --> 01:20:22.355
- there, as we have said. This particular picture looks a bunch more, really, when you're standing on

01:20:22.355 --> 01:20:30.377
- the property, it is not all that, it doesn't feel all that close. I think that a carport there is quite

01:20:30.377 --> 01:20:35.390
- appropriate. Having heard then the commentary about in the back,

01:20:35.618 --> 01:20:41.873
- having this shed already is encroaching upon the neighbors property. It sounds to me like there isn't

01:20:41.873 --> 01:20:48.006
- really anywhere else to go. And if you look at it, at that front hip strip from the property, there

01:20:48.006 --> 01:20:54.506
- really isn't anywhere else to go. It is under an acre. So I would not have any problems with them putting

01:20:54.506 --> 01:21:01.006
- a carport there as they propose being a neighbor. Okay. Thank you, Dee. Thank you for joining and sharing

01:21:01.006 --> 01:21:02.846
- your opinion. Thank you, Dee.

01:21:03.330 --> 01:21:10.541
- Do we have anybody here in the room who is against this petition? If so, please come to the podium.

01:21:10.541 --> 01:21:17.823
- Seeing no one, if there's anyone online who wishes to speak against, please raise your virtual hand.

01:21:17.823 --> 01:21:25.178
- Okay, let's close public comment and come back to the BZA for questions or to Ms. Minister Joe and if

01:21:25.178 --> 01:21:33.182
- you have an answer to the accident question. I mean, I would definitely trust the petitioner's statement. Yes.

01:21:33.698 --> 01:21:43.561
- Crash report is only by total roadway. So I do have just like an average crash rating for the prior

01:21:43.561 --> 01:21:53.622
- year. So this is a crash summary or traffic crash summary from 2022 to 2024. So the average for those

01:21:53.622 --> 01:22:02.302
- years is four. And that's along the entire stretch of harmony. So there's not too many.

01:22:02.466 --> 01:22:12.286
- And I found the call-in supporter's testimony supportive of what we heard from the petitioner as well.

01:22:12.286 --> 01:22:21.914
- Any comments? Comments? Yeah. The carport, two questions. One, the carport, there's a garage. Can we

01:22:21.914 --> 01:22:30.590
- have that one picture we've looked at several times? Yeah, that picture. Is that a garage?

01:22:30.818 --> 01:22:38.948
- that's next to the RV. Yes, that is a garage that is currently next to the RV. So this is for a carport

01:22:38.948 --> 01:22:46.843
- in addition to a garage. And would they be connected to each other or they'd be completely separate?

01:22:46.843 --> 01:22:55.129
- According to the petitioner site plan, they will be separate. But I think maybe the petitioner themselves

01:22:55.129 --> 01:22:59.038
- can speak to that. Is Mr. Pritchard still online?

01:23:02.978 --> 01:23:12.028
- Mr. Pritchard, you should be able to unmute now. Yeah, they will be separate, but they will be setting

01:23:12.028 --> 01:23:20.903
- fairly close together. I was trying to get as far off the road as possible. Do you know what you can

01:23:20.903 --> 01:23:29.953
- you give me about a foot apart or three feet apart? I was going for a foot. Thank you. And the and the

01:23:29.953 --> 01:23:31.710
- second question is,

01:23:32.418 --> 01:23:41.271
- Can a park carport be enclosed? Would this be an enclosed building or would this be open walls? The

01:23:41.271 --> 01:23:50.123
- side facing the road and the side facing my neighbor to the north would be enclosed. The front side

01:23:50.123 --> 01:23:58.622
- would be open and the side facing the garage would be open. Got it. Makes sense. Um, well, the,

01:23:59.714 --> 01:24:10.758
- And back to the picture of the garage with the vehicles, if we could. It seems to me, my taste is having

01:24:10.758 --> 01:24:21.486
- those big boat and the big camper right out there in the road isn't any less of a visual problem than

01:24:21.486 --> 01:24:27.902
- having a carport, which is probably nicer, nicer to look at.

01:24:28.034 --> 01:24:36.152
- And the encroachment is not gonna be substantially altered because they're already, you know, if the

01:24:36.152 --> 01:24:44.351
- car's gonna go off the road and hit the carport, it's gonna hit the boat. So I don't see that this is

01:24:44.351 --> 01:24:47.486
- a problem. I'm prepared to support it.

01:24:48.930 --> 01:24:59.086
- With that said, I'm going to move, we approve variance 26-34A, Pritchard front yard setback variance

01:24:59.086 --> 01:25:09.645
- to chapter 805 and also variance 26-34B, the Pritchard minima blot size variance to chapter 805. Second.

01:25:09.645 --> 01:25:14.974
- Okay, it's been moved and seconded to approve BAR-2.

01:25:15.074 --> 01:25:25.768
- 26-34A and 34B, which is the front yard setback and middle and lot size variance. A vote yes is a vote

01:25:25.768 --> 01:25:36.357
- to approve both. Kip Daly? Yes. Guy Lofman? Yes. Jeff Morris? Yes. Pamela Davidson? Yes. Okay. Motion

01:25:36.357 --> 01:25:40.510
- is approved. Four to zero. There we go.

01:25:40.770 --> 01:25:50.973
- Thank you, Mr. Pritchard. Moving on to item seven, eight, nine, 10, and 11. This is VAR-26-35A, 35B,

01:25:50.973 --> 01:26:01.076
- 35C, 35D, and 35E, all titled U-Haul Total Sign Allocation Variance to Chapter 817. Mr. Chair? Yes.

01:26:01.076 --> 01:26:06.430
- May I have the floor? Real quick question, Mr. Baya.

01:26:07.074 --> 01:26:16.824
- Did the petitioner go ahead and take care of all of the requirements in terms of notification? He did.

01:26:16.824 --> 01:26:26.290
- OK, great. Is there anybody in the room or online that wishes to contest this petition? Please make

01:26:26.290 --> 01:26:36.798
- yourself known in person by we'll say do a jumping jack. And we'll say online by waving your virtual hand. OK.

01:26:37.474 --> 01:26:45.122
- Thank you. You don't have to do jumping jack, it was a joke. Okay, since we have someone against it,

01:26:45.122 --> 01:26:52.770
- Mr. Devalle, let's go ahead with the presentation. Okay. So this is petition VR 2635A through E. The

01:26:52.770 --> 01:27:00.418
- purpose of the petition is to permit signage on the petition site that exceeds the maximum permitted

01:27:00.418 --> 01:27:07.006
- on a legal lot of record that's 600 square feet and for individual variances to permit

01:27:07.202 --> 01:27:13.847
- individual signs that exceed the total signage area permitted for individual signs and that's 285 square

01:27:13.847 --> 01:27:20.302
- feet on the site. So the petitioner submitted a sign permit application that was ISO or ISO 26-16 and

01:27:20.302 --> 01:27:26.630
- in the review of the application staff determined that the proposed signage for this business would

01:27:26.630 --> 01:27:33.022
- require multiple variances and instructed the petitioners to submit the variances for this petition.

01:27:35.266 --> 01:27:41.335
- The site is the location of a U-Haul storage moving business that is currently under construction. The

01:27:41.335 --> 01:27:47.640
- petitioner is proposing placing nine signs at the site for the business. The site had previously undergone

01:27:47.640 --> 01:27:53.887
- a rezone to allow the use and a site plan approval to allow for commercial building permits to be issued.

01:27:53.887 --> 01:28:00.015
- The petition site used to be made up of two legal lots of record, but due to the size of the operation,

01:28:00.015 --> 01:28:04.670
- the lots were combined for planning and zoning purposes. So if they still had,

01:28:05.058 --> 01:28:12.232
- The two lots, they would be permitted 1,200 total square feet, but because they combined the lots, they

01:28:12.232 --> 01:28:19.130
- are only permitted 600 total square feet of signage area. Additionally, the petitioner is proposing

01:28:19.130 --> 01:28:26.303
- wall signs and the buildings are set back from the road, so the view of the signage from the roads does

01:28:26.303 --> 01:28:33.822
- appear smaller than the signs themselves. Now, this is a quote taken from Chapter 817 pertaining to signage.

01:28:34.082 --> 01:28:39.921
- And I'm going to read this directly. Now, withstanding other provisions of these regulations, no premises

01:28:39.921 --> 01:28:45.594
- within any business or industrial zone may be restricted to less than 75 square feet of sign area, nor

01:28:45.594 --> 01:28:51.267
- shall any premises be permitted to display more than 600 square feet of sign area per zoning legal lot

01:28:51.267 --> 01:28:57.051
- of record, except as provided under the relocation of a pole sign under Chapter 817 to 7F. No individual

01:28:57.051 --> 01:28:57.822
- sign shall be

01:28:58.210 --> 01:29:05.258
- than 285 square feet except as provided under the relocation of a pole sign under Chapter 817.7f. One

01:29:05.258 --> 01:29:12.237
- ground sign with a maximum permitted sign surface area of 60 square feet shall be permitted for each

01:29:12.237 --> 01:29:19.423
- street frontage subject to the total allocation. So this is outlining the variances that the petitioner

01:29:19.423 --> 01:29:26.402
- is requesting. As you can see, the 600 square feet per lot of record and the 285 square feet for the

01:29:26.402 --> 01:29:27.646
- individual signs.

01:29:28.674 --> 01:29:34.563
- Purpose from the sign chapter and the warnings for the sign size limitation is to encourage sign types

01:29:34.563 --> 01:29:40.508
- that preserve the county's rural character, including buildings, signs, monument signs, and wall signs.

01:29:40.508 --> 01:29:46.397
- So, C, states, maintaining and enhancing the aesthetic environment and the county's ability to attract

01:29:46.397 --> 01:29:52.228
- tourism and other sources of economic development and growth. And D, states, improving pedestrian and

01:29:52.228 --> 01:29:53.886
- traffic movement and safety.

01:29:54.178 --> 01:30:00.323
- ergo maintaining appropriate site distances at intersections and reducing distractions. So the signs

01:30:00.323 --> 01:30:06.651
- do meet the purpose statements of maintaining an aesthetic environment by being wall-mounted signs that

01:30:06.651 --> 01:30:13.101
- are sized appropriately to scale the site and vantage points from the roadway for the safety of motorists

01:30:13.101 --> 01:30:19.246
- and pedestrians. So the foremost variance request is to allow for the total signage area on the site

01:30:19.246 --> 01:30:23.870
- to exceed the total onsite signage permitted, for one leave a lot of record

01:30:24.130 --> 01:30:30.841
- that I quoted earlier, as the petitioners requesting total signage area of around 3,420 square feet,

01:30:30.841 --> 01:30:37.885
- denial of this variance, the first variance, that's VR2635A, could impact the subsequent variance request

01:30:37.885 --> 01:30:44.862
- for individual signage as a denial will limit the total signage permitted on the lot to 600 square feet.

01:30:45.058 --> 01:30:51.597
- This 600 square feet would also apply to other signage that did not trigger the variance request for

01:30:51.597 --> 01:30:58.459
- individual signs as they were smaller than the 285 square feet individual sign allocation. Since a single

01:30:58.459 --> 01:31:05.451
- sign can exceed this total, the BZA's decision for this request may vastly affect what signs the petitioner

01:31:05.451 --> 01:31:11.924
- would have to prioritize. If all variances are denied, the petitioner will have to reduce the total

01:31:11.924 --> 01:31:12.766
- signage area

01:31:13.698 --> 01:31:19.214
- for the site as well as the signage area for the individual signs on the site to be compliant with the

01:31:19.214 --> 01:31:24.838
- county development ordinance. It talks a little bit about the infrastructure in the area. So the subject

01:31:24.838 --> 01:31:30.675
- property is located at the corner of West Pro Fall Parkway and North Sunrise Grading Court with a roundabout

01:31:30.675 --> 01:31:35.870
- intersecting the two roads, which are local roads according to the Monroe County Therefore Plan.

01:31:35.970 --> 01:31:41.364
- Most of the property is adjacent to the subject property. Arizona Heavy Industrial argues for industrial

01:31:41.364 --> 01:31:46.759
- or commercial purposes. Motorists approaching the property southbound from North Sunrise Greetings Court

01:31:46.759 --> 01:31:51.999
- will be traveling along an overpass with the subject property located immediately to the right, which

01:31:51.999 --> 01:31:57.445
- with smaller signage may make visibility of the business a little bit more difficult. Motorists traveling

01:31:57.445 --> 01:32:02.736
- north from North Gates Drive to where the roundabout may also have difficulty seeing signage given the

01:32:02.736 --> 01:32:04.894
- distance from the site to the roundabout.

01:32:05.666 --> 01:32:23.539
- And now I will present the individual signs themselves from the staff report. So this is the first individual

01:32:23.539 --> 01:32:28.414
- sign and where it's proposed.

01:32:30.082 --> 01:32:37.091
- It'll be affixed to the south of the one story 17,000 square foot building that faces West Profile Parkway.

01:32:37.091 --> 01:32:43.905
- It measures 624 square feet, which is exceeding the total limit for individual signs by 339 square feet.

01:32:43.905 --> 01:32:50.590
- And you can see this arrow is pointing exactly where it is located on this structure. This is what the

01:32:50.590 --> 01:32:57.534
- sign looks like. And this is the view from the right of way in the rendering that the petitioner uploaded.

01:33:00.002 --> 01:33:09.759
- This is the second sign, this is VAR 2635C. It's to the side of the building that faces North Sunrise

01:33:09.759 --> 01:33:19.421
- Greetings Court. It's the same sign as the first one and it is located adjacent to the first sign on

01:33:19.421 --> 01:33:28.030
- the same structure. This is the location of the third sign. It is located on the building

01:33:28.962 --> 01:33:38.370
- that is on the west side of the lot. The building itself is 40,000 square feet and the sign measures

01:33:38.370 --> 01:33:47.870
- 1,417 square feet and it exceeds the maximum by 1,132 square feet. There's an arrow showing where the

01:33:47.870 --> 01:33:57.278
- sign is and that is where the sign is located in the rendering and that is what the sign looks like.

01:33:58.530 --> 01:34:06.405
- And this is the last sign or sorry, this is the measurements for that sign calculated by staff. Staff

01:34:06.405 --> 01:34:14.126
- calculated the measurement for all signs that did not already have the square footage included. And

01:34:14.126 --> 01:34:22.078
- this is the last sign here, and it's on the same building as this sign. And all these signs are either

01:34:22.242 --> 01:34:29.649
- affixed to the building or incorporated into the building. So these signs will not be pole signs, they

01:34:29.649 --> 01:34:36.912
- will not be freestanding signs. So that is also consistent with what the Monroe County Comprehensive

01:34:36.912 --> 01:34:44.463
- Plan recommends for signage. Now I'll go into the exhibits. Location map. This is the zoning map showing

01:34:44.463 --> 01:34:52.158
- that the property zone, general business, as you see all the properties located in the vicinity are either

01:34:54.146 --> 01:35:02.775
- heavy industrial or their zone plan unit development. These two are, or these properties are in the

01:35:02.775 --> 01:35:12.008
- PUD. Comprehensive plan map. And these are site photos that I took on the 29th. This is from the sidewalk,

01:35:12.008 --> 01:35:20.724
- the right away there showing the building that's almost finished with construction showing where the

01:35:20.724 --> 01:35:22.622
- sign will be located.

01:35:23.714 --> 01:35:32.295
- or where they're proposing locating those signs. Another picture. The structure hasn't been built yet,

01:35:32.295 --> 01:35:40.627
- but that is the location of the other two signs where they'll be located. This is the view from the

01:35:40.627 --> 01:35:48.958
- right-of-way showing the, well, showing West Profile Parkway. I think, I believe this is westbound.

01:35:52.034 --> 01:35:58.696
- This is a view of the property from the, close to the roundabout. As you can see, it's a considerable

01:35:58.696 --> 01:36:05.618
- distance from the roundabout, or from the right of way to the sign, or to the structure, so it's a little

01:36:05.618 --> 01:36:12.149
- difficult to see signage from the right of way there. This is the nearest, the overpass showing the

01:36:12.149 --> 01:36:18.680
- two structures, well the one structure and the structure currently being constructed from the, from

01:36:18.680 --> 01:36:20.574
- North Sunrise Green's Court.

01:36:24.642 --> 01:36:35.538
- Additional photo there. An additional photo showing the structure being constructed that has not yet

01:36:35.538 --> 01:36:46.326
- been constructed yet. And this is a picture of the site from the walkway nearest to the roundabout.

01:36:46.326 --> 01:36:53.662
- This is the plot. Petitioner's letter. This is the site permit map.

01:36:54.114 --> 01:37:01.353
- showing those renderings that I had shown earlier. And this is the comprehensive plan mixed use designation.

01:37:01.353 --> 01:37:08.259
- As you see where it outlines private signs, it states signs should be sized and designed to effectively

01:37:08.259 --> 01:37:15.232
- communicate to both pedestrian and vehicular traffic without becoming a visual distraction. Wall-mounted

01:37:15.232 --> 01:37:21.342
- and monument signs are appropriate, pole signs and rooftop billboards should be prohibited.

01:37:22.530 --> 01:37:37.208
- This is the petitioners preliminary site plan. This is the completed site plan. And I will now go back

01:37:37.208 --> 01:37:47.326
- to the. And this is staff's recommendation. Staff recommends approval.

01:37:47.618 --> 01:37:54.086
- with two conditions. The petitioner is limited to a total sign area of 3,420 square feet. Any additional

01:37:54.086 --> 01:38:00.369
- signage will require the petitioner to seek additional variances. That's the first condition. And the

01:38:00.369 --> 01:38:06.590
- second condition is the variances apply only to the site plan as presented to the BZA. Any change in

01:38:06.590 --> 01:38:12.812
- sign type from what is on the site plan, such as from a wall sign to a pole sign, will first require

01:38:12.812 --> 01:38:16.446
- a BZA approval. Thank you, Mr. DeValle. Yeah, Mr. DeValle.

01:38:17.666 --> 01:38:31.091
- To understand this better, this construction is south of the new bridge that was built? Yes, so it's

01:38:31.091 --> 01:38:46.110
- like the overpass is directly to the west of that bridge. So this is on the poles side of the new bridge, right?

01:38:52.130 --> 01:39:03.724
- Correct, yeah. Thank you. Okay. Okay, let's go ahead and turn now to the petitioner if you'd like to

01:39:03.724 --> 01:39:14.974
- come forward. If there's anything you'd like to say. The shirts gave you away a little bit. Okay.

01:39:22.914 --> 01:39:33.745
- Okay, thanks. Okay, if you could go ahead and sign in. If you're both gonna speak, if you could both

01:39:33.745 --> 01:39:44.791
- sign in. Copy the public on that table, thank you. If you could both state your names individually and

01:39:44.791 --> 01:39:52.190
- then raise your right hands. Bethany Mosher. And Jonathan Kirschner.

01:39:52.322 --> 01:39:58.469
- Okay, do you both swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Okay, you'll have

01:39:58.469 --> 01:40:04.556
- a combined 15 minutes to share your presentation with us. We just wanted to introduce ourselves. We're

01:40:04.556 --> 01:40:10.526
- U-Haul Company of South Central Indiana. I'm Bethany Moser, the marketing company president. It's my

01:40:10.526 --> 01:40:16.495
- owner's rep for this project. You know, when U-Haul is one of the first businesses that any resident

01:40:16.495 --> 01:40:22.110
- coming into the community is going to encounter. So we try to make it as clean as inviting and

01:40:22.850 --> 01:40:29.781
- as noticeable, easy to get to as possible. Essentially, we are the gateway into the community because

01:40:29.781 --> 01:40:36.645
- we're one of the first businesses that they interact with. So for that, the signage is going to help

01:40:36.645 --> 01:40:43.508
- us to give clear direction to our customers, be able to easily find us and help them transition into

01:40:43.508 --> 01:40:50.371
- the community. So that's why we're asking for these variances. A couple of things about the signage.

01:40:50.371 --> 01:40:52.478
- I know when you see on the one

01:40:53.058 --> 01:41:00.947
- building that's already constructed. You have the brown, what's that called? It's more of an architectural

01:41:00.947 --> 01:41:08.320
- feature and I believe the square footage in those is actually including that architectural feature.

01:41:08.320 --> 01:41:15.841
- It's just a coloring background. If you actually take just the sign, the U box, what's going to be on

01:41:15.841 --> 01:41:19.454
- it, the square footage is actually much smaller.

01:41:19.650 --> 01:41:27.811
- But when you take those architectural features, same with that, the one that says your storage place

01:41:27.811 --> 01:41:36.214
- with the waves, the gray background is also just an architectural feature color. It's actually not part

01:41:36.214 --> 01:41:44.941
- of this sign. So the square footage of that would be much less as well if we weren't taking that background

01:41:44.941 --> 01:41:48.254
- or back feature. So if that makes sense.

01:41:48.738 --> 01:41:56.631
- square footage of the actual signage is a lot less than than that. Want to add anything? I don't know.

01:41:56.631 --> 01:42:04.371
- Thanks for your time. OK, thank you. Do any members of the board have questions for the petitioners?

01:42:04.371 --> 01:42:12.111
- Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yes, please feel free to ask some questions. This is my first meeting. I

01:42:12.111 --> 01:42:16.862
- apologize. No problem. I'm doing fine. When I first saw this,

01:42:17.090 --> 01:42:25.238
- U-Haul means you're getting a trailer or you're getting a truck. This is not where people get trailers

01:42:25.238 --> 01:42:33.702
- or trucks. This is where people store their stuff. Is that right? It's both. We have our truck and trailer

01:42:33.702 --> 01:42:42.166
- sharing as well as a storage for the area. There's quite a demand for a climate controlled inside storage.

01:42:42.166 --> 01:42:45.726
- So it is both. OK. And so if I want to get a

01:42:45.954 --> 01:42:57.918
- You haul trailer and put it in my car. This is the place I might come. Okay. So just for context.

01:42:58.274 --> 01:43:04.603
- There's going to be a lot of traffic in and out of here. That's what you want. Yes, it could potentially,

01:43:04.603 --> 01:43:10.633
- yes. A lot of traffic. People are going to be bringing their stuff in sometimes in a U-Haul trailer,

01:43:10.633 --> 01:43:16.604
- sometimes in the back of their van and sticking it in the units and renting. And OK, I was having a

01:43:16.604 --> 01:43:22.574
- little trouble making sure I understood the nature of the business. And I've got it now. Thank you.

01:43:22.574 --> 01:43:25.022
- Any other questions for the petitioners?

01:43:26.594 --> 01:43:33.918
- Thank you. That site is a fairly industrial site. It's not really residential. Am I correct about that?

01:43:33.918 --> 01:43:41.313
- Yes, many other businesses. Large, the cat business is right there, the Caterpillar. Bloomington Transit

01:43:41.313 --> 01:43:48.426
- just bought a lot just on the other side during that. You're now testifying and I don't think you've

01:43:48.426 --> 01:43:51.806
- identified yourself or signed in. Yeah, he did.

01:43:52.034 --> 01:43:58.273
- He signed in, but if you could move to the microphone. I was just saying that pardon me, that Bloomington

01:43:58.273 --> 01:44:04.511
- Transit actually bought just that lot down just the west direction that Mr. Tobias showed on the picture.

01:44:04.511 --> 01:44:10.691
- All right. Thank you so much. Thank you. If anyone speaks against the petition, you'll have five minutes

01:44:10.691 --> 01:44:16.753
- to come back up and speak to their comments. OK, let's open public comment now. If there's anyone here

01:44:16.753 --> 01:44:19.166
- in the room who wishes to speak in favor

01:44:22.722 --> 01:44:28.908
- Sorry, false start. Anyone online who wishes to speak in favor of this petition, please raise your virtual

01:44:28.908 --> 01:44:34.921
- hand. Okay, now you can come forward. If anybody wishes to speak against this petition, please go ahead

01:44:34.921 --> 01:44:40.991
- and come to the podium. If you could sign in, raise your right hand and state your name. Cheryl Langdon.

01:44:40.991 --> 01:44:46.772
- Okay, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Yes. Okay, you'll

01:44:46.772 --> 01:44:51.166
- have three minutes. All right, so you guys are all wrong. Everyone's wrong.

01:44:51.394 --> 01:44:59.342
- about talking about it being industrial and commercial. And oh, there's no one here that lives nearby.

01:44:59.342 --> 01:45:07.367
- It's residential as well. So Sunrise Greetings is right behind my house. I'm not happy about that being

01:45:07.367 --> 01:45:15.084
- open. Number one. But I didn't get a notification. I didn't live there when I had my opportunity to

01:45:15.084 --> 01:45:20.254
- say no. I live on Logan Road. So the strip of residential there is

01:45:20.642 --> 01:45:30.850
- It's rural, it's county, it's Richland. It is not the blue from the annexation. Then you have the trailer

01:45:30.850 --> 01:45:40.768
- courts, the trailer parks, residential that is right across from there, the railroad tracks. We've got

01:45:40.768 --> 01:45:50.398
- north and we've got east spaces where people live. I live. I live right behind commercial services.

01:45:50.722 --> 01:45:58.348
- I literally can throw a rock, I wouldn't do it, at one of the businesses, L&W, that has the drywall.

01:45:58.348 --> 01:46:06.049
- I get woke up a lot whenever they're running their forklift. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Shakes my house

01:46:06.049 --> 01:46:14.279
- sometimes. And they're very nice whenever I let them know that they've broken a noise ordinance or whatever,

01:46:14.279 --> 01:46:19.262
- because they do. That's a whole other subject. Sunrise greetings.

01:46:19.522 --> 01:46:27.577
- doesn't have a really big light pollution issue because those businesses, those commercial businesses,

01:46:27.577 --> 01:46:35.397
- they do have small signs. They do keep their light pollution down a little bit, because I make sure

01:46:35.397 --> 01:46:43.295
- of that, because we live there. We have to go to sleep there. We have to raise families there. We do

01:46:43.295 --> 01:46:48.222
- everything there. And these people that have these businesses,

01:46:48.386 --> 01:46:56.119
- you come in and you buy that space that's next to the roundabout, you're perfectly aware and know what

01:46:56.119 --> 01:47:03.777
- the topography is, who is there, and it's not industrial. And I'm not happy about Bloomington Transit

01:47:03.777 --> 01:47:10.910
- buying the other property either. The noise pollution has already started since the opening of

01:47:11.010 --> 01:47:18.371
- and bringing in the overpass, the bridge, and all that. The noise pollution's already ratcheted up.

01:47:18.371 --> 01:47:25.954
- Accidents have already happened on Vernal and Sunrise. And then that's sirens. And then air pollution,

01:47:25.954 --> 01:47:33.315
- more traffic. I mean, it has become so invasive and urbanized. And we live still, we are considered

01:47:33.315 --> 01:47:38.910
- in the county. We're still considered living in a rural space where we are.

01:47:39.394 --> 01:47:49.942
- and we're right next to commercial buildings. And if those businesses that have existed for the past

01:47:49.942 --> 01:48:00.386
- 20 years, some less than that, right behind my house, if they can manage to not be intrusive to all

01:48:00.386 --> 01:48:07.070
- the people that live there, have to sleep there, wake up there,

01:48:07.810 --> 01:48:14.847
- I think that someone who knows that they just bought two sections of property on profile parkway and

01:48:14.847 --> 01:48:21.885
- sunrise greetings knows exactly what they're doing, what they were starting, what location they were

01:48:21.885 --> 01:48:28.922
- picking out, all the different things they were gonna do, design aesthetics for the building and all

01:48:28.922 --> 01:48:35.960
- that. You can't sit there and tell me that you did all this stuff. And it was like, well, we weren't

01:48:35.960 --> 01:48:37.214
- being considerate

01:48:37.730 --> 01:48:43.384
- It was business. You knew what you were doing. You wanted to make sure that you were doing business

01:48:43.384 --> 01:48:49.094
- and making money, but you didn't care. And I'm sorry to cut you about anyone that lives there. Sorry

01:48:49.094 --> 01:48:54.974
- to cut you off, but you're three minutes. Sorry. But thank you. I could talk about this all day. Sorry.

01:48:54.974 --> 01:49:00.854
- No problem. Thank you. Is there anyone else here in the room who wishes to speak against this petition?

01:49:00.854 --> 01:49:05.886
- Anyone online who wishes to speak against this petition, please raise your virtual hand.

01:49:08.482 --> 01:49:15.490
- Okay, seeing no one, I will close public comment and come back to the board for discussion. Mr. Chair?

01:49:15.490 --> 01:49:22.362
- Yeah. Can I request the petitioner to come back real quick? Yeah, actually, the petitioner gets five

01:49:22.362 --> 01:49:29.302
- minutes in rebuttal if there's anything he'd like to speak to. Let me ask a quick question, if I may,

01:49:29.302 --> 01:49:36.446
- first. Sure. You're, unless if I'm misunderstanding something here, your signs, and these are questions,

01:49:36.610 --> 01:49:44.164
- Your signs are not elevated, correct? Yes, I don't. They're they're on the building, but they're not

01:49:44.164 --> 01:49:52.391
- above the buildings. And are your signs illuminated? They're not the ones on the one. There's one illuminated

01:49:52.391 --> 01:49:59.870
- is that or three, but it's on. It's not facing any of the. That's the small one I'm looking at here

01:49:59.870 --> 01:50:06.526
- is illuminated. I'm which one? The one on the front right here, just showing these ones.

01:50:07.522 --> 01:50:16.465
- This one right here. We take we take residential, you know, challenges, objections seriously. We want

01:50:16.465 --> 01:50:25.320
- I just want to better understand what you're doing here versus you. You may. You can't speak because

01:50:25.320 --> 01:50:34.701
- the microphone. Here, could you speak? Yeah, the two above our center are going to be illuminated. They're

01:50:34.701 --> 01:50:36.542
- 45 square feet each.

01:50:36.994 --> 01:50:48.248
- And then the one on sunrise grading court. They're internally illuminated, following the standard. These

01:50:48.248 --> 01:50:59.287
- guys here. And lastly, forgive me. And what are your hours of operation? Seven to seven. And then nine

01:50:59.287 --> 01:51:05.182
- to five. Would your, and you can head back, thank you.

01:51:06.146 --> 01:51:12.974
- Do you plan to leave your signs illuminated after your hours of operation? Only for a portion of hours,

01:51:12.974 --> 01:51:19.868
- but then they go off usually about an hour after we close. And that's allowing time for workers to close

01:51:19.868 --> 01:51:26.828
- up and leave. And then about an hour before we open. So about by eight o'clock at night, your sign should

01:51:26.828 --> 01:51:33.590
- be off right after sunset. And they come on right about right before sunset. And then we put them back

01:51:33.590 --> 01:51:35.166
- on. But it's usually we

01:51:35.586 --> 01:51:43.394
- They cut off, yes, during the night. I apologize. So there's nothing obstructing any view and the lights

01:51:43.394 --> 01:51:50.979
- will be consistent with the sunlight. Right. OK. Thank you. And what what street? I couldn't tell the

01:51:50.979 --> 01:51:58.490
- first two that were illuminated. What street do those face on towards the residential or towards the

01:51:58.490 --> 01:52:05.406
- business street side? They're on profile parkway on profile parkway. It'll view right on the

01:52:05.698 --> 01:52:14.498
- The bridge. Yeah. Yeah. OK. So they're not illuminated towards the residential areas. I apologize. Logan

01:52:14.498 --> 01:52:23.046
- Street, if that's where the modular home park is across that, we don't have any illuminated that way.

01:52:23.046 --> 01:52:31.594
- It's facing. So on the screen, it's northeast of the site across sunrise greetings. It's over. OK. On

01:52:31.594 --> 01:52:35.198
- the other side of the bridge. Correct. OK.

01:52:35.298 --> 01:52:44.304
- I believe ours is going to be almost blocked by the bridge. But once again, it will go off after certain

01:52:44.304 --> 01:52:52.966
- hours. We don't cause any kind of noise other than just normal people talking. I mean, you might get

01:52:52.966 --> 01:53:01.886
- a horn honk if someone's backing up and they honk the horn. And we do take the safety and the residents

01:53:02.722 --> 01:53:10.340
- As soon as I purchased that property, as soon as the lawn got extremely, I brought someone in to maintain

01:53:10.340 --> 01:53:17.528
- it, to take care of it. We had a homeless encampment there that we had to make it not want them. We

01:53:17.528 --> 01:53:24.787
- didn't remove them ourselves, but they left when we started just maintaining and all that. And so we

01:53:24.787 --> 01:53:27.518
- made sure to ensure that it was safe.

01:53:27.746 --> 01:53:36.527
- for the people, even residential and everything, because we don't want blight. We don't want anything,

01:53:36.527 --> 01:53:45.307
- and we're determined to help grow the community and beautify it. Would the hours where people can come

01:53:45.307 --> 01:53:53.662
- in and out of the storage be limited? No more hours are from 5 a.m. to 10 p.m., so it is limited.

01:53:54.434 --> 01:54:02.161
- That would be fairly brightly lit. That area would be fairly brightly lit. The entrances are. But in

01:54:02.161 --> 01:54:09.964
- the storage areas, is that not got? That's inside. Oh, inside storage? We have very few drive up, but

01:54:09.964 --> 01:54:17.232
- those have right on the building and they don't illuminate outward. So there's a lot of doors.

01:54:17.232 --> 01:54:23.582
- There are. I see. And those doors, but you don't have a lot of parking lot lighted

01:54:23.682 --> 01:54:31.201
- lighting in there? I believe we're only allowed so many pole lights and those would be on a timer. Could

01:54:31.201 --> 01:54:38.792
- you make those so that they illuminate down and minimize? That's what we do. We actually do to illuminate

01:54:38.792 --> 01:54:45.022
- down because we're not trying to illuminate the whole neighborhood. I don't know that.

01:54:45.570 --> 01:54:54.010
- any lights or anything else is before us other than just the signage specifically? But illumination

01:54:54.010 --> 01:55:02.365
- is a concern. But that's not before us. Well, in considering additional illumination, the existing

01:55:02.365 --> 01:55:05.150
- illumination is important to me.

01:55:07.938 --> 01:55:14.929
- I'm glad to hear you've taken all that to consideration, because it costs you money to light unnecessarily,

01:55:14.929 --> 01:55:21.466
- and we like dark skies here, so I'm glad to hear that you've taken that in. They're timers, and they

01:55:21.466 --> 01:55:28.004
- won't be running all the time, and you're no noise level. All right. Thank you for commenting on all

01:55:28.004 --> 01:55:33.182
- that. And I have a staff question that's going to be related to you, too. Okay.

01:55:33.282 --> 01:55:41.061
- What are the conditions? Do you recommend approval with conditions? And would you run through the conditions?

01:55:41.061 --> 01:55:48.345
- Yeah, so there are two conditions. The first condition is to limit the total sign area to 3,420 square

01:55:48.345 --> 01:55:55.841
- feet, and any additional signage that they request will need to seek additional variances. And the second

01:55:55.841 --> 01:56:00.862
- condition basically states that what is presented is what they will be

01:56:01.826 --> 01:56:08.530
- installing on the site and anything that differs from that will need approval from the board. Very good,

01:56:08.530 --> 01:56:15.106
- thank you. And we can meet those conditions, so yes. Those are acceptable. Thank you. Okay, thank you.

01:56:15.106 --> 01:56:21.618
- I will say just as a note, we do review lighting as part of the site plan review process, and if they

01:56:21.618 --> 01:56:28.194
- didn't meet the lighting standard, it would be a variance. So they are meeting the ordinance for that.

01:56:28.194 --> 01:56:29.790
- Okay, thank you, Jackie.

01:56:30.434 --> 01:56:37.827
- We will come back now to the Board of Zoning Appeals for conversation and or a motion. I just want to

01:56:37.827 --> 01:56:45.437
- make a comment to the respondee who is very concerned about the commercial activity in the neighborhood.

01:56:45.437 --> 01:56:52.903
- This matter before us is really about the signs on the building. That's zoning, planning, other issues

01:56:52.903 --> 01:56:58.846
- that are beyond our purview, not what we're looking at. I understand frustrating.

01:56:58.978 --> 01:57:06.591
- I am familiar with this area, I know about this. So I just want to say that our focus is very, very

01:57:06.591 --> 01:57:14.432
- limited in scope. The signs on the building, I also know from that area, it's hard to see signage that

01:57:14.432 --> 01:57:22.197
- isn't somewhat oversized. And I appreciate the fact that they're putting architectural features in it

01:57:22.197 --> 01:57:24.862
- so it isn't just an ugly sign with

01:57:25.538 --> 01:57:35.852
- So I appreciate that you're thinking about that because artistic touches matter a lot to us in this

01:57:35.852 --> 01:57:46.681
- community. So other comments? Comments? I'm going to recommend we approve variances 26 through 35 ABCDE,

01:57:46.681 --> 01:57:50.910
- the sign allocation variances to chapter

01:57:51.010 --> 01:58:05.156
- 817 with the two conditions that we just heard staff enumerate. Second. OK, it's been a motion to approve

01:58:05.156 --> 01:58:10.494
- VAR-26-35A total sign allocation, B, C,

01:58:10.658 --> 01:58:19.772
- D and E, which are all individual sign allocation variances, all to chapter eight, 17 with the two conditions

01:58:19.772 --> 01:58:28.057
- stated in the staff report. A vote yes is a vote to approve with the two conditions as shown in the

01:58:28.057 --> 01:58:37.502
- staff report. Jeff Morris. Yes. Pamela Davidson. Yes. Skip Daly. Yes. Guy Laughman. I do want to comment that I'm

01:58:38.466 --> 01:58:46.634
- Very sympathetic. But there's only so much we can do. These signs themselves will be facing away from

01:58:46.634 --> 01:58:54.722
- the areas which you have concern with about lighting. So I don't think they're going to impact that.

01:58:54.722 --> 01:59:02.729
- So I don't think what's before us would be will have any substantial impact on the neighborhood. So

01:59:02.729 --> 01:59:07.614
- I'm voting yes. Motion is approved four to zero. OK. We are.

01:59:07.810 --> 01:59:19.516
- Two hours in, does anybody on the board want to break? Let's review where we are on the agenda. You

01:59:19.516 --> 01:59:31.690
- want this back? Thanks for pretty pictures. Thank you. We are done with, we have 11. We have seven more

01:59:31.690 --> 01:59:36.606
- petitions on the list. Of which one, two,

01:59:37.506 --> 01:59:47.893
- for our approvals, two are denials and one is mixed. So, okay. Oh, it's just 7.30. Oh, wow. Yeah, I

01:59:47.893 --> 01:59:58.383
- was just asking if anybody wanted a quick break before we continue. No, I'll tell you if I do. Okay,

01:59:58.383 --> 02:00:05.342
- thank you. Okay, let's move on then to, I think I turned the page.

02:00:05.442 --> 02:00:14.180
- too soon here. Number 12, CDU-26-2. This is the Parker Home-Based Business and this one is recommended

02:00:14.180 --> 02:00:23.513
- for approval by staff. Mr. Chair, may I? Yes. Permission to speak? Mr. Myers, real quick, did this petitioner

02:00:23.513 --> 02:00:28.094
- satisfy the requirements of notification? Yes. Great.

02:00:29.090 --> 02:00:47.000
- Is there anybody in the room or online that wishes to contest or object to this petition? Raise your

02:00:47.000 --> 02:00:58.526
- virtual hand if you're online and object to case number CDU26-2.

02:00:58.754 --> 02:01:09.886
- Mr. Chair, I see nobody objecting and after diligent efforts by planning staff, they have found a motion,

02:01:09.886 --> 02:01:20.704
- they have found the standards being met and they recommend approval and I would like to motion to call

02:01:20.704 --> 02:01:22.174
- the question.

02:01:28.866 --> 02:01:36.913
- about that. OK, it's been moved and seconded to call to question a vote. Yes, is a vote to call to question

02:01:36.913 --> 02:01:44.662
- and then seek a motion by the board for a decision. Jeff Morris, yes. Pamela Davidson. Yes. Skip Daley.

02:01:44.662 --> 02:01:52.634
- Yes. Guy Loftman. Yes. OK, that motion is approved for zero. OK, before we continue, I think Miss Davidson

02:01:52.634 --> 02:01:55.838
- had a question, so we'll allow you to ask.

02:01:55.970 --> 02:02:06.871
- Oh, no, about the next one. Oh, the next one. Sorry. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Chair, finding

02:02:06.871 --> 02:02:17.979
- that the conditions have been met and recommended approval by staff, I after looking through the evidence,

02:02:17.979 --> 02:02:25.246
- I would like to motion that we approve case number C D U two six dash

02:02:25.474 --> 02:02:34.449
- I do have a second. I second that. It's been moved and seconded to approve CDU-26-2 Parker Home-Based

02:02:34.449 --> 02:02:43.248
- Business, and this is to approve based on the findings with no required conditions. A vote yes is a

02:02:43.248 --> 02:02:52.310
- vote to approve. Skip Daly? Yes. Nye Lofman? Yes. Jeff Morris? Yes. Pamela Davidson? Yes. Okay, motion

02:02:52.310 --> 02:02:54.686
- is approved, four to zero.

02:02:56.258 --> 02:03:06.384
- Okay, moving on to number 13, VAR-26-36. This is the Walcott-Riperian area setback various to chapter

02:03:06.384 --> 02:03:16.312
- 805. And again, this one is recommended for approval by staff. Mr. Chair, may I have the floor? Mr.

02:03:16.312 --> 02:03:24.254
- Myers, have the requirements for notification been met by this petitioner? Yes.

02:03:28.642 --> 02:03:39.917
- Next question, is there anybody here online or in person that wishes to object or contest to variance

02:03:39.917 --> 02:03:51.082
- 26-36 tonight? Anyone online, please put up that little yellow flag. Mr. Chair, I don't see anybody,

02:03:51.082 --> 02:03:55.614
- do you? All right, with that being said,

02:03:56.098 --> 02:04:06.072
- After reviewing the evidence in the packet and seeing that staff has found that the petitioner has met

02:04:06.072 --> 02:04:16.047
- the conditions and recommended approval, I would like to motion and move to call the question. Second.

02:04:16.047 --> 02:04:21.470
- It's been moved and seconded to call to question a vote

02:04:21.666 --> 02:04:29.780
- Yes is a vote to call to question and then a subsequent motion is needed for the variance petition.

02:04:29.780 --> 02:04:38.057
- Yes. Jeff Morris. Yes. Pamela Davidson. Yes. Skip Daley. Yes. OK. That motion does pass four to zero.

02:04:38.057 --> 02:04:46.172
- And Mr. Daley, before you make the second motion, may I have staff a question about something I saw

02:04:46.172 --> 02:04:50.878
- in the materials? I see the petitioners online, but I saw

02:04:51.010 --> 02:04:59.453
- that this is for a garage at the end of a driveway. I live very close to this. This is how I know. It

02:04:59.453 --> 02:05:07.978
- says that it's a 600 square foot garage. I happen to know there's a dump truck parked in that driveway

02:05:07.978 --> 02:05:16.503
- as well. And my question, and maybe petitioners should answer this, is the garage size for cars or for

02:05:16.503 --> 02:05:17.662
- a dump truck?

02:05:18.818 --> 02:05:27.511
- Because I think the dimensions might be different, but is 600 square foot very standard that fits in

02:05:27.511 --> 02:05:36.119
- that? Because it's a small property down there at the end of their driveway. I saw it in the notes,

02:05:36.119 --> 02:05:44.382
- but I didn't see it from the petitioner's side. And I just want assurance about that factually.

02:05:44.738 --> 02:05:52.146
- A typical parking space dimension is nine by 18. So 20 feet wide is I'd say typical to small for width

02:05:52.146 --> 02:05:59.411
- of a two car garage, but 30 feet long is a bit longer, but I don't know if the petitioner has stated

02:05:59.411 --> 02:06:06.747
- anything to Drew or. I don't know where in the notes I read it was 600 square foot, but I didn't read

02:06:06.747 --> 02:06:11.422
- it from the petitioner. And I guess I want to ask that question.

02:06:13.954 --> 02:06:24.876
- It's a worthy question. Which is it? Do we have the petitioner online who could answer this question?

02:06:24.876 --> 02:06:36.012
- If you could just a second. If you could unmute yourself and state your name and raise your right hand,

02:06:36.012 --> 02:06:38.046
- I'll swear you in.

02:06:50.690 --> 02:07:12.582
- should be able to unmute Mr. DeGroote. If you're not able to unmute, you may need to leave the meeting

02:07:12.582 --> 02:07:20.446
- and rejoin. Mr. Chair, in procedural

02:07:20.770 --> 02:07:28.403
- matter at this point, I'm going to have to motion that we reopen discussion on this matter. Just for

02:07:28.403 --> 02:07:36.111
- a factual question. I think that's a question for Mr. Schilling. If we're going to ask the petitioner

02:07:36.111 --> 02:07:43.744
- a question. We had a debate with our last vote. So at this point, I'm going to ask to, I'm moving to

02:07:43.744 --> 02:07:49.790
- reopen discussion. So we'll have to have someone second and vote and roll call.

02:07:50.626 --> 02:07:58.847
- Sorry. No, that's OK. We're going to. There's been a motion second to reopen this for discussion about

02:07:58.847 --> 02:08:06.987
- yes is a vote to reopen for discussion. Paola Davidson. Yes, and I apologize. I thought we could take

02:08:06.987 --> 02:08:15.288
- care of it in the second motion. I apologize for that. Skip Daley. Yes. Guy Laughman. Yes. Jeff Morris.

02:08:15.288 --> 02:08:19.518
- Yes. OK, so it's back open to discussion. OK, let's.

02:08:20.450 --> 02:08:28.488
- promote Mr DeGroat to a presenter again. Okay, now you can unmute. If you could state your name and

02:08:28.488 --> 02:08:36.847
- raise your right hand. Gavin DeGroat. Okay, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing

02:08:36.847 --> 02:08:45.206
- but the truth? Yes. Okay, were you clear on the question for Ms Davidson? Yes, sorry, I tried to unmute

02:08:45.206 --> 02:08:50.270
- myself and it left the meeting somehow. But yes, it's just for

02:08:50.690 --> 02:08:58.528
- one car and we have a small shed here now with like the mower and some other stuff that we just need

02:08:58.528 --> 02:09:06.444
- to store so that's why it's a little bigger to fit her car and then just stuff to store and it's it's

02:09:06.444 --> 02:09:14.205
- only nine feet tall so yeah it's not for the dump truck perfect that's exactly what I wanted you to

02:09:14.205 --> 02:09:19.870
- say and I know that shed is in tough shape so that'll be ripped down and

02:09:20.098 --> 02:09:27.465
- You'll have yes as well. The only other thing I wanted to add since you're online right now and you've

02:09:27.465 --> 02:09:34.617
- answered my question just appropriately is the creek, the riparian issue. I live along this too. It

02:09:34.617 --> 02:09:41.984
- does flash flood. That's exactly right. It comes up and comes down. And I would just say be aware when

02:09:41.984 --> 02:09:49.566
- you construct your garage that that will be an issue because it is across heart straight with that owner.

02:09:49.794 --> 02:09:56.943
- And so that's where your creek goes. So just be aware as you design that, that you should take that

02:09:56.943 --> 02:10:04.092
- into account if and when that happens, even though it's intermittently. That's all I wanted to say.

02:10:04.092 --> 02:10:11.526
- Yes, thank you. Thank you. Is there any other comment or do we want to move to call the question again?

02:10:11.526 --> 02:10:19.390
- I'm well satisfied with that response. Thank you. Thank you. Yep, thank you. Hi. Mr. Daly, would you like to?

02:10:19.522 --> 02:10:31.011
- I like to take the floor. Sure. Is there anybody here at this point that wishes to object to in person

02:10:31.011 --> 02:10:39.934
- or online? I don't see anybody, Mr. Chair, do you? Okay. At this point, finding

02:10:40.418 --> 02:10:47.696
- that practical difficulties have been met with the evidence that has been provided to us in

02:10:47.696 --> 02:10:55.686
- the recommendation of approval by staff. I would like to eliminate debate at this point and call the

02:10:55.686 --> 02:11:03.676
- question. Second. OK, it's been moved and seconded to call again to question about. Yes, is about to

02:11:03.676 --> 02:11:09.214
- call to question skip daily. Yes. Guy Loftman. Yes. Jeff Morris. Yes.

02:11:09.538 --> 02:11:18.316
- Pamela Davidson? Yes. Okay, that motion carries four to zero. Mr. Chair, may I have the floor? Yes.

02:11:18.316 --> 02:11:26.918
- Thank you. At this point, I would like to move that variance 26-36 be approved based on practical

02:11:26.918 --> 02:11:33.150
- difficulties being met in the evidence that we have before us. Second.

02:11:34.370 --> 02:11:41.711
- It's been moved and seconded to approve VAR-26-36, which is the Walcott riparian area setback variance

02:11:41.711 --> 02:11:48.411
- to chapter 805. A vote yes is a vote to approve the variance without any required conditions.

02:11:48.411 --> 02:11:55.966
- Pamela Davidson? Yes. Skip Daly? Yes. Guy Lofman? Yes. Jeff Morris? Yes. Motion is approved four to zero.

02:11:56.866 --> 02:12:05.459
- OK, moving on to item number 14, this is VAR-26-37. This is the Smith West State Road 46 Dadu variance

02:12:05.459 --> 02:12:13.885
- to Chapter 805. So, Mr. Myers, I will turn it over to you. Thank you. So this property is located at

02:12:13.885 --> 02:12:21.310
- 9168 West State Road 46. It's one 4.72 acre parcel in Bean Blossom Township, Section 30.

02:12:24.546 --> 02:12:30.277
- The petitioner is requesting one development standard variance to the detached accessory dwelling unit

02:12:30.277 --> 02:12:35.953
- standards of chapter 811. The petitioner proposes to construct a new detached accessory dwelling unit

02:12:35.953 --> 02:12:41.518
- with approximately 850 to 950 square feet of livable residential space. The petition site currently

02:12:41.518 --> 02:12:47.360
- contains an existing 4,236 square foot single family residence, a 768 square foot detached garage, which

02:12:47.360 --> 02:12:53.370
- will ultimately be replaced by the proposed detached accessory dwelling unit, according to the petitioner's

02:12:53.370 --> 02:12:53.982
- site plan.

02:12:54.562 --> 02:13:00.415
- a 720 square foot car shed and several other small accessory structures. Additionally, a building permit

02:13:00.415 --> 02:13:06.157
- was issued earlier this year for a new 3000 square foot pole barn, which is not and was never intended

02:13:06.157 --> 02:13:11.732
- to be utilized as an accessory dwelling unit. According to the petitioner, the purpose of the newly

02:13:11.732 --> 02:13:16.638
- proposed accessory dwelling unit is to provide a place for their mother to live nearby.

02:13:19.618 --> 02:13:25.244
- The petitioner has not secured a minimum specifications document from the Monroe County Health Department

02:13:25.244 --> 02:13:30.551
- at this point regarding the installation of a new septic system for the proposed detached accessory

02:13:30.551 --> 02:13:36.018
- dwelling unit. It is unclear to planning staff at this time if the petitioner intends to install a new

02:13:36.018 --> 02:13:41.378
- septic system or connect to the existing single family residence septic system should it have enough

02:13:41.378 --> 02:13:46.791
- capacity to add an additional bedroom. On the screen we have the definition or excuse me, the chapter

02:13:46.791 --> 02:13:48.702
- from which the regulations come for

02:13:48.866 --> 02:13:55.425
- detached accessory dwelling units, chapter 811-4C. There are 13 specific requirements for these type

02:13:55.425 --> 02:14:01.595
- of land use classifications, and the one before you this evening is number two, and it states,

02:14:01.595 --> 02:14:08.285
- for the FOR, AGR, and CBR zoning districts, the minimum lot size is required to be five acres, and the

02:14:08.285 --> 02:14:14.909
- size of the accessory dwelling unit slash detached accessory dwelling unit is limited to 1,000 square

02:14:14.909 --> 02:14:17.182
- feet of livable residential space,

02:14:17.282 --> 02:14:25.019
- the minimum lot size requirement for residential, et cetera, et cetera. You can see that on the screen.

02:14:25.019 --> 02:14:32.532
- Of the 13 conditions, all of them have been met other than number two, which relates to the lot size

02:14:32.532 --> 02:14:40.566
- requirement. Here on the screen, we have the definition for accessory dwelling units, attached or detached.

02:14:40.566 --> 02:14:47.038
- This is included in the packet. Now on the screen, we have a brief outline of outcomes

02:14:47.490 --> 02:14:55.417
- So if the variance is denied, the petitioner will be unable to construct the proposed detached accessory

02:14:55.417 --> 02:15:03.041
- dwelling unit without first obtaining additional acreage. That would be at least 0.54 acres from the

02:15:03.041 --> 02:15:10.666
- neighboring property because the petition site does not have the five acres total. By showing on the

02:15:10.666 --> 02:15:15.422
- petition site's subdivision plat, it shows as having 4.4 acres

02:15:15.906 --> 02:15:23.237
- So I guess that that should read .56 acres gaining in order to reach that five acre requirement. If

02:15:23.237 --> 02:15:30.494
- the variance is approved, the petitioner can continue with the standard permitting process for the

02:15:30.594 --> 02:15:36.522
- proposed detached accessory dwelling unit. And the bullets there show the outline of the process to

02:15:36.522 --> 02:15:43.042
- do so, including the standard permitting process, as well as getting documentation from the health department

02:15:43.042 --> 02:15:49.029
- related to the septic system, whether that be a new system or a connection to the existing system, a

02:15:49.029 --> 02:15:55.550
- certified plot plan for the new construction of a residence on the property, and also an affidavit satisfying

02:15:55.550 --> 02:15:57.150
- chapter 811-4C number one,

02:15:57.282 --> 02:16:03.786
- which is required and to be recorded at the American Recorder's Office certifying that the property

02:16:03.786 --> 02:16:10.291
- owner will reside in one of the units, that being the single family residence currently existing on

02:16:10.291 --> 02:16:16.795
- the property or the detached accessory dwelling unit. Here's the location map as well as the zoning

02:16:16.795 --> 02:16:23.300
- map showing the zone of agricultural residential. And we have the comprehensive plan map as well as

02:16:23.300 --> 02:16:24.926
- the site conditions map.

02:16:27.330 --> 02:16:33.328
- Now you have the aerial pictometry showing the parcel in question and the existing structures on that

02:16:33.328 --> 02:16:39.502
- parcel. And then we have a couple of pictures showing the entrance off of State Road 46 and the driveway

02:16:39.502 --> 02:16:45.559
- going back into the property. Now on the screen we have the letter to the Board of Zoning Appeals that

02:16:45.559 --> 02:16:51.909
- was provided by the petitioner. This is included in the packet and it details their request, their purpose,

02:16:51.909 --> 02:16:55.614
- and their rationale as to why the petition should be approved.

02:16:57.410 --> 02:17:05.568
- Now, a couple of exhibits that were provided by the petitioner. So they are listed as lot number two

02:17:05.568 --> 02:17:13.806
- A in the Janell subdivision amendment two, which shows it as having 4.44 acres. And it is also on the

02:17:13.806 --> 02:17:22.044
- screen showing you the approximate location of where the structure will be placed. Again, it is going

02:17:22.044 --> 02:17:25.598
- to be replacing that existing garage there.

02:17:25.762 --> 02:17:35.759
- gone ahead and located the approximate location of that newly approved pole barn structure. That brings

02:17:35.759 --> 02:17:45.948
- me to staff's recommendation. Staff recommends denial of VAR-26-37 indicating that practical difficulties

02:17:45.948 --> 02:17:47.774
- have not been met.

02:17:47.938 --> 02:17:53.673
- The strict application of the county development ordinance indicates that a property must contain at

02:17:53.673 --> 02:17:59.522
- least five acres to allow for the development of an accessory dwelling unit. The petitioner could work

02:17:59.522 --> 02:18:05.200
- to obtain an additional 0.56 acres from a neighboring property to meet the five acre requirement. I

02:18:05.200 --> 02:18:10.878
- will now take any questions. Any questions for Mr. Myers? Well, let's hear the public. We will turn

02:18:10.878 --> 02:18:16.670
- now to the petitioner. If there's anything you'd like to share, you're welcome to come to the podium.

02:18:25.666 --> 02:18:29.726
- you're both going to speak if you could both sign in and then I'll swear you both in.

02:18:56.130 --> 02:19:03.170
- If you could both state your names. I'm Cheryl Smith. James Smith. OK. And do you both swear to tell

02:19:03.170 --> 02:19:10.698
- the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? OK, you'll have 15 minutes combined to share whatever

02:19:10.698 --> 02:19:17.668
- you'd like to with us. OK, our property is four point seven four acres. And so we are point to five

02:19:17.668 --> 02:19:19.550
- short from doing this ADU.

02:19:20.258 --> 02:19:28.698
- It's an accessory dwelling unit. It will be on a cement slab. There will be a new septic system put

02:19:28.698 --> 02:19:37.221
- in and we had the soil scientists come out and the construction guy who puts it in and verified that

02:19:37.221 --> 02:19:46.083
- the area was okay. The new, this ADU came to fruition after us already committing to building this barn.

02:19:46.083 --> 02:19:48.446
- It's due to my mother who's

02:19:49.410 --> 02:19:57.475
- recently diagnosed with Alzheimer's, and she's in the third stage early. So her short-term memory is

02:19:57.475 --> 02:20:05.780
- pretty much shot or leaving, but her long-term memory is there. So the purpose of putting the ADU there

02:20:05.780 --> 02:20:13.765
- is temporary. She's 83. It will replace, there's an old garage right there now that we use to store

02:20:13.765 --> 02:20:17.598
- all kinds of stuff from us renovating our home.

02:20:18.626 --> 02:20:25.417
- the onset of my mother's illness came after all of this other planning had taken place. So our best

02:20:25.417 --> 02:20:32.275
- option was to allow her to keep her independence because she is still able to do finances and things

02:20:32.275 --> 02:20:39.202
- like that on her own, but to bring her closer to us so that we can monitor, because we don't know how

02:20:39.202 --> 02:20:44.702
- quickly this is going to take place. So we're just trying to put stuff in place.

02:20:45.058 --> 02:20:53.137
- In regards to the acreage, we are 4.74, which is like 72, which is the barn or the garage that there

02:20:53.137 --> 02:21:01.376
- that's there now is like 800 square feet. And so the ADU unit would be maybe 100 square feet more. And

02:21:01.376 --> 02:21:09.535
- I think the big thing is the installation of the septic tank is where we could. Like I said, this the

02:21:09.535 --> 02:21:14.974
- scientist lady said it was fine where we were planning on doing it.

02:21:15.490 --> 02:21:23.435
- or we can consider a mound septic also. So I guess I'm not quite clear on what the denial is, why it

02:21:23.435 --> 02:21:31.458
- would be denied. It's all about that five acre requirement. That's it in a nutshell. Am I right about

02:21:31.458 --> 02:21:39.481
- that staff? I'm right. Yes, the strict application of the ordinance indicates that staff is obligated

02:21:39.481 --> 02:21:42.942
- to recommend denial for certain situations.

02:21:44.994 --> 02:21:51.052
- regards to that we've talked to one of our other neighbors that has a lot of property beside us he's

02:21:51.052 --> 02:21:57.169
- not willing to sell any people behind us won't sell any and our immediate neighbor right there in lot

02:21:57.169 --> 02:22:03.226
- B is restricted to the size of that because of those five acre requirements when they subdivide that

02:22:03.226 --> 02:22:09.284
- she got I don't even know what it is two point something four point something it's pretty small it's

02:22:09.284 --> 02:22:14.142
- it's considerably smaller than ours but she's the other half of that subdivision

02:22:14.658 --> 02:22:20.829
- And they subdivided it originally for the guy's daughter who owned the whole piece of property to begin

02:22:20.829 --> 02:22:26.882
- with. So why that lot got so small, don't know. It's kind of an odd cut-up shape right there. But for

02:22:26.882 --> 02:22:32.875
- such a minimal requirement of land for what we're trying to do, we're basically replacing the garage

02:22:32.875 --> 02:22:38.868
- that's there. We're just turning it into a small home. And it's not visible to the road. We know all

02:22:38.868 --> 02:22:44.446
- of our neighbors in there. The garage is where it's going to be. It's not visible to anybody.

02:22:45.186 --> 02:22:52.393
- So it's not intrusive to anybody. It doesn't go over property lines. It's like dead center of the acreage

02:22:52.393 --> 02:22:59.260
- we have. So. Whatever works. And this is really for the ADU, not the garage. This is correct. Really

02:22:59.260 --> 02:23:06.059
- the ADU from home. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. We'll turn to public comment now. If anybody

02:23:06.059 --> 02:23:12.994
- speaks against this, you'll be able to come back up. Mr. Chuck, can I ask the staff a quick question?

02:23:12.994 --> 02:23:15.102
- Angela Stevens is now joining.

02:23:16.482 --> 02:23:25.337
- There was a little discretion, and I don't know that it matters a whole lot, but the petitioner claims

02:23:25.337 --> 02:23:34.450
- 4.74, and your presentation had .56 shy of five, which would mean 4.44, which would mean there's 3 tenths

02:23:34.450 --> 02:23:43.219
- of an acre differential between what they said and what you're saying. Do you have any reply to that?

02:23:43.219 --> 02:23:46.142
- Yes. So on Beacon GIS, there is a

02:23:46.498 --> 02:23:56.147
- a legal acreage that's provided on the documentation there that says 4.72, I believe. And that is usually

02:23:56.147 --> 02:24:05.433
- tied to a deed record. The petition site recently went through an amendment to the subdivision, which

02:24:05.433 --> 02:24:14.718
- was recorded in January of 2026. And on that, which is also displayed on the screen, you can see that

02:24:14.914 --> 02:24:21.876
- 1A is shown as 4.44 acres. So typically staff goes with a recorded survey document. Fair enough.

02:24:21.876 --> 02:24:29.197
- Thank you. That's all I have. OK, let's turn now to public comment. Is there anybody here in the room

02:24:29.197 --> 02:24:36.446
- who wishes to speak in favor of this petition? One online who wishes to speak in favor, please raise

02:24:36.446 --> 02:24:43.838
- your virtual hand. Anyone here in the room who is opposed to this petition, please come to the podium.

02:24:45.570 --> 02:24:52.798
- or anyone online who is opposed, please raise your virtual hand. Public comment and bring this back

02:24:52.798 --> 02:24:54.750
- to the BZA for discussion.

02:24:55.170 --> 02:25:02.018
- We've encountered this a number of times, this five acre requirement. And in this situation, the dad

02:25:02.018 --> 02:25:09.001
- who is under the 1,000 square feet requirement, which alone is an achievement. That's hard to find one

02:25:09.001 --> 02:25:16.255
- that is of that very modest size that fits that. So I'm very sympathetic to this. We've had many occasions

02:25:16.255 --> 02:25:23.239
- where people are bringing their parents closer home. Good for you. I'm so sorry about your mom. Loving

02:25:23.239 --> 02:25:24.798
- daughter, she's lucky.

02:25:24.930 --> 02:25:32.675
- Um, so I, I am very sympathetic to this because they are very close to the five acres. I watch a lot

02:25:32.675 --> 02:25:40.727
- of PBS and the density there is cats and dogs, soups to nuts for what we have here in the States because

02:25:40.727 --> 02:25:48.779
- they have so much less land. So it, it's, it's our heritage, I suppose, but it makes me very sympathetic

02:25:48.779 --> 02:25:53.150
- to this petition. If anybody else wants to say anything.

02:25:55.106 --> 02:26:03.170
- I appreciate that Mr. Smith did talk to his neighbors and made an effort to do that because sometimes

02:26:03.170 --> 02:26:11.235
- people aren't quite as diligent as that and it makes it much easier for me to be supportive and thank

02:26:11.235 --> 02:26:19.378
- you for your homework. And I want to add a P.S. to that. I don't think as a government body we can say

02:26:19.378 --> 02:26:23.806
- to people, hey, go out and buy more land so you fit our

02:26:24.002 --> 02:26:32.789
- requirement that just seems a road too far for me in many ways that's asking a lot and that even it's

02:26:32.789 --> 02:26:41.404
- nice that neighbors take that well instead of taking that hostily because property law neighbors my

02:26:41.404 --> 02:26:50.536
- word the law is pretty extreme there so I just don't think that that's anything we as a government entity

02:26:50.536 --> 02:26:52.862
- can ever ask anyone to do.

02:26:53.730 --> 02:27:01.598
- Noticing here in the staff's recommendation, they outline that practical difficulties have not been

02:27:01.598 --> 02:27:09.467
- met, but then it's followed up stating that the petitioner could work with neighbors to see if they

02:27:09.467 --> 02:27:17.335
- could purchase the rest. Well, we found that he did approach the neighbors, so that's gonna satisfy

02:27:17.335 --> 02:27:19.774
- practical difficulties for me.

02:27:20.770 --> 02:27:31.127
- I'm gonna move that we approve Variance 26-37 the Smith West State Road 46 Dadu variants to chapter

02:27:31.127 --> 02:27:41.691
- 805 because we find practical difficulties have been met second Okay, it's been moved and seconded to

02:27:41.691 --> 02:27:44.798
- motion approval for VAR-26-37

02:27:44.962 --> 02:27:52.939
- the daddy variance to chapter eight or five, specifically not meeting the five acre minimum requirement.

02:27:52.939 --> 02:28:00.839
- About yes is a vote to approve the variance with no conditions. Jeff Morris. Yes. Pamela Davidson. Yes.

02:28:00.839 --> 02:28:08.664
- Skip Daley. Yes. Guy Laughman. Yes. Motion carries four to zero. Thank you, Sherrilyn James. And thank

02:28:08.664 --> 02:28:13.982
- you for taking such good care of your mom. That's right. Moving on to

02:28:14.946 --> 02:28:26.304
- Item number 15, this is VAR-26-38. This is the McManus minimum lot width variance to chapter 804. This

02:28:26.304 --> 02:28:37.552
- one looks like it has an approval recommendation as well. Approval recommendation. On page 167. Yeah,

02:28:37.552 --> 02:28:44.830
- I'm just making sure there's no. Mr. Chair, may I have the floor?

02:28:44.962 --> 02:28:54.756
- Yes. Mr. Brown, a real quick question for you before we proceed. Do you have the evidence that our petitioner

02:28:54.756 --> 02:29:03.838
- has done their work to notify, according to the statute, notify their neighbors? I believe they have.

02:29:05.122 --> 02:29:15.094
- Wonderful, thank you. Mr. Chair, I'm gonna continue if you don't mind. Is there anybody in the audience

02:29:15.094 --> 02:29:25.161
- or online that wishes to contest or oppose this petition? We're about to hear variance 26-38. See nobody

02:29:25.161 --> 02:29:34.270
- in the audience. Do you see any yellow flags on there? Nope. Give anyone a second chance here?

02:29:35.586 --> 02:29:45.295
- All right, seeing no one. Mr. Chair, based on the due diligence of our staff and the recommendation

02:29:45.295 --> 02:29:55.489
- of approval saying that the standards set forth have been met, I would like to move to call the question

02:29:55.489 --> 02:30:03.838
- before us. I second that. It's been moved and seconded to call to question BAR-26-38.

02:30:03.938 --> 02:30:13.729
- A vote yes is a vote to call to question. Skip Daly? Yes. Guy Loftman? Yes. Jeff Morris? Yes.

02:30:13.729 --> 02:30:24.561
- Pamela Davidson? Yes. Okay, that motion carries four to zero. Every time I hear those bells, it's Monty

02:30:24.561 --> 02:30:27.582
- Python going off in my head.

02:30:31.106 --> 02:30:42.394
- Mr. Chair, if I may have the floor, I have a motion that we approve variance 26-38 based on the evidence

02:30:42.394 --> 02:30:53.251
- found in the packet demonstrating that standards conditions have been met. And moved and seconded to

02:30:53.251 --> 02:30:55.294
- approve VAR-26-38.

02:30:55.458 --> 02:31:02.636
- the McManus minimum lot with variance to Chapter 804. A vote yes is a vote to approve without conditions.

02:31:02.636 --> 02:31:09.678
- Guy Loftman. Yes. Jeff Morris. Yes. Pamela Davidson. I just want to say I'm so terribly sorry a tornado

02:31:09.678 --> 02:31:16.584
- destroyed your pole barn and house. I mean, it's the weather night, isn't it? The weather night. Yes,

02:31:16.584 --> 02:31:22.814
- I vote yes. I'm just sorry about it. Skip Daley. Yes. OK, motion is approved. Four to zero.

02:31:24.290 --> 02:31:31.703
- Okay, moving on to item 16 and 17. This is VAR-26-39A and 39B. This is the Blue Tip Use Variance to

02:31:31.703 --> 02:31:39.634
- Add Entertainment Center to Heavy Industrial, Chapter 808, and the Blue Tip Use Variance to Add Restaurant

02:31:39.634 --> 02:31:46.750
- Sit Down to Heavy Industrial, Chapter 808. So Mr. Dabai, I will turn it over to you. Thank you.

02:31:47.746 --> 02:31:54.881
- 1.19-acre parcel located in Perry Township, Section 29, and the location is 5120 South Commercial Street.

02:31:54.881 --> 02:32:01.680
- The petitioners are Christina and Thomas LaRotte, but the owners are Rockport Investment Group, LLC.

02:32:01.680 --> 02:32:04.574
- The property is owned by Heavy Industrial.

02:32:08.258 --> 02:32:14.032
- The petitioners are requesting two use variances to pursue a billiards business at the subject property.

02:32:14.032 --> 02:32:19.751
- The petitioners submitted a use determination, and that is use 2641 in July of this year to see if this

02:32:19.751 --> 02:32:24.811
- site could be used for a proposed billiards business. The use determination that was issued

02:32:24.811 --> 02:32:30.365
- to the petitioners by staff classifies the uses for the proposed business as an entertainment center

02:32:30.365 --> 02:32:36.084
- use and restaurant sit-down use, with the entertainment center being the primary use and the restaurant

02:32:36.084 --> 02:32:38.174
- sit-down use being the accessory use.

02:32:39.106 --> 02:32:44.019
- The issue to the petitioners specified that neither use is permitted in the heavy industrial zoning

02:32:44.019 --> 02:32:49.178
- district and informed the petitioners that they could either pursue a rezone or a use variance to pursue

02:32:49.178 --> 02:32:52.126
- this use. The petitioners chose to pursue the use variance.

02:32:52.834 --> 02:32:59.133
- Currently, the existing structure proposed for this business is vacant and was formerly used and permitted

02:32:59.133 --> 02:33:05.137
- for an automotive slash boat repair shop. This structure was constructed sometime in 2020 and retains

02:33:05.137 --> 02:33:11.436
- the ability to operate uses permitted in the heavy industrial zoning district under the county development

02:33:11.436 --> 02:33:15.262
- ordinance as an automotive and or boat service and repair major.

02:33:19.394 --> 02:33:26.930
- So prior to the adoption of the County Development Ordinance on December 18th of 2024, the property

02:33:26.930 --> 02:33:34.766
- was zoned Light Industrial or LI. The definition for LI is shown on the slide there. After the adoption

02:33:34.766 --> 02:33:43.056
- of the County Development Ordinance, the zoning designation for this property was updated to Heavy Industrial

02:33:43.056 --> 02:33:49.310
- or HI. And the definition for the Heavy Industrial District is on the slide there.

02:33:51.554 --> 02:33:57.922
- So here are the definitions for both the entertainment center and restaurant sit down. These are the

02:33:57.922 --> 02:34:04.731
- uses that are in line with what the petitioners are pursuing for the billiards use. Here's some information

02:34:04.731 --> 02:34:11.162
- on the infrastructure. There's a passing blister at the intersection on South Victor Street and South

02:34:11.162 --> 02:34:17.214
- Production, and a lot of heavy equipment traffic does come and go from this intersection daily.

02:34:17.506 --> 02:34:23.068
- There's not a concern that the area could handle the traffic. However, this requested use would be shifted

02:34:23.068 --> 02:34:28.319
- towards more evening hours as opposed to business hours. There have been some parking constraints in

02:34:28.319 --> 02:34:33.569
- the area and there's only an allowance for parking on one side of Commercial Street per signs marked

02:34:33.569 --> 02:34:38.871
- along the roadway. If both variances are approved, the petitioner will then have to submit for a site

02:34:38.871 --> 02:34:43.550
- plan review, which will have to meet all applicable requirements to proceed with the use.

02:34:44.738 --> 02:34:50.016
- If the entertainment center use variance is approved, but the restaurant sit-down use variance is denied,

02:34:50.016 --> 02:34:55.294
- the petitioner will have the option to continue to pursue the billiard use, albeit without the restaurant

02:34:55.294 --> 02:35:00.322
- sit-down aspect as defined in the definition from the previous slide. If the restaurant sit-down use

02:35:00.322 --> 02:35:05.351
- variance is approved, but the entertainment center use variance is denied, the billiard use will not

02:35:05.351 --> 02:35:10.430
- be permitted. Here are the exhibits. To the left is the location map. To the right is the zoning map.

02:35:13.762 --> 02:35:22.264
- comprehensive plan map to the left and the site conditions map to the right. Here is an aerial picture

02:35:22.264 --> 02:35:30.849
- of the property facing, I believe that's to the west per Eagle View imagery. Here are site photos. This

02:35:30.849 --> 02:35:39.433
- photo to the left I took from the driveway and the photo to the right I took from the right away facing

02:35:39.433 --> 02:35:41.662
- the front of the building.

02:35:43.234 --> 02:35:52.405
- Here are some pictures of the parking for the site. Photos of the parking on the site. Here's the use

02:35:52.405 --> 02:36:01.577
- table from the Monroe County Development Ordinance highlighting that entertainment center use and the

02:36:01.577 --> 02:36:10.568
- restaurant sit-down use. As you can see, HI shown here does not permit either of those uses. Here's

02:36:10.568 --> 02:36:13.086
- the two-pager for the heavy

02:36:13.410 --> 02:36:22.277
- industrial zoning district that both outlines the character intent and intent of the zoning district

02:36:22.277 --> 02:36:31.670
- as well as the permitted uses and the dimensional standards on the right. And here's the use determination

02:36:31.670 --> 02:36:40.625
- that was issued to the petitioner. Here's a 2D layout of the interior of the site that the petitioner

02:36:40.625 --> 02:36:41.854
- is proposing.

02:36:45.154 --> 02:37:00.382
- Here is the petitioner's letter to the BZA. Here are letters of support that were uploaded to the application.

02:37:10.690 --> 02:37:15.888
- staff's recommendation. So staff recommends denial per the county development ordinance. The intent

02:37:15.888 --> 02:37:21.085
- of the heavy industrial zoning district does not permit the commercial use that the petitioners are

02:37:21.085 --> 02:37:26.335
- requesting. Furthermore, adding a more intense use like the proposed use does not meet the character

02:37:26.335 --> 02:37:31.637
- of the zoning district. Lastly, the petitioner did not provide evidence of an unnecessary hardship as

02:37:31.637 --> 02:37:36.835
- a subject property is currently permitted for automotive boat slash or automotive slash boat repair

02:37:36.835 --> 02:37:38.238
- shops. And that's for VAR.

02:37:38.402 --> 02:37:46.232
- and VR, or sorry, VR-2639A and B. I will now take questions. Okay, thank you, Mr. De Baia. Let's turn

02:37:46.232 --> 02:37:54.138
- to the petitioner. Do we have a petitioner or petitioner's representative here in the room? Thank you.

02:37:54.138 --> 02:37:59.742
- If you could come to the podium and sign in, and then I'll swear you in.

02:38:12.034 --> 02:38:17.222
- your patience and waiting two and a half hours for your petition? Absolutely. If you could state your

02:38:17.222 --> 02:38:22.512
- name and raise your right hand. My name is Tim Aldrich. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth

02:38:22.512 --> 02:38:27.954
- and nothing but the truth? I do. Okay. You and anyone else representing this petition will have 15 minutes

02:38:27.954 --> 02:38:29.022
- to speak. Thank you.

02:38:29.122 --> 02:38:36.457
- Good evening again, my name is Tim Aldrich. We are a service-disabled veteran owned small business registered

02:38:36.457 --> 02:38:43.393
- here in Bloomington Chamber of Commerce. I'm here to talk about our billiards community and our request

02:38:43.393 --> 02:38:50.128
- to occupy the building located at 5120 South Commerce Street. We have two variances to be considered

02:38:50.128 --> 02:38:52.862
- today and I would ask that these uses be

02:38:52.994 --> 02:39:00.467
- not be separated. As we look at this, the proposed business is a billiards center that includes food

02:39:00.467 --> 02:39:08.532
- and beverage under a single structure. As you read that, the definitions that we put inside of entertainment

02:39:08.532 --> 02:39:16.522
- and restaurant use, there is no nature, the nature of the businesses require that the competitive billiards

02:39:16.522 --> 02:39:19.038
- center provide food and beverage.

02:39:19.138 --> 02:39:26.960
- There's no separation of the billiards and a designation of a sit-down food and beverage area isn't

02:39:26.960 --> 02:39:34.860
- that. Therefore, strictly applying the zoning ordinance to the property for this use is where we see

02:39:34.860 --> 02:39:42.761
- the hardship for not only our billiards center, but for the league's owners of the APA, the BCA, and

02:39:42.761 --> 02:39:47.454
- our landowner himself. With the zoning variances 39A and B,

02:39:47.618 --> 02:39:55.669
- The finding of facts and section E where we see the conclusion of a hardship and interference with the

02:39:55.669 --> 02:40:04.190
- comprehensive plan. What we're asking here today is under the uses of exhibit seven. And as you look at the.

02:40:07.970 --> 02:40:15.093
- the general purpose or the primary uses and you see the use of a fitness center as a primary use and

02:40:15.093 --> 02:40:22.146
- the conditional uses of like an indoor range are accepted for that heavy industrial zoning. I would

02:40:22.146 --> 02:40:29.411
- ask that the Billiard Center be looked at in the same light. The uses of equipment of a fitness center

02:40:29.411 --> 02:40:33.854
- mirror the space needed in a Billiard Center. As you saw, that

02:40:34.082 --> 02:40:43.267
- space that was on the exhibits was 22 tables, 20 tables, and that represents the community here as a

02:40:43.267 --> 02:40:52.634
- whole. The tables consume most of the space and the refreshments and food are offered as they're doing

02:40:52.634 --> 02:41:01.182
- these regional events or these league nights that can also be looked to as a community event.

02:41:01.506 --> 02:41:09.209
- Indoor range needs the same consumption of space and also serve refreshments and food at their place.

02:41:09.209 --> 02:41:16.988
- I recognize the conditional label on an indoor range and the use that we're talking about. When I look

02:41:16.988 --> 02:41:24.692
- at the alignment is really what I'm looking to show you as far as the equipment and the space that is

02:41:24.692 --> 02:41:31.262
- needed just to run a billiards and the beverage that would be there at that same time.

02:41:32.578 --> 02:41:40.285
- As we looked at the areas for the reporting, Section A, we see that the proposed we would not do any

02:41:40.285 --> 02:41:47.993
- harm for the public health or safety. Section B, the area already includes commercial and industrial

02:41:47.993 --> 02:41:55.929
- uses, and as we see in the report, those neighboring businesses have submitted those letters of support

02:41:55.929 --> 02:41:59.134
- placed in the variances. When I looked at

02:41:59.810 --> 02:42:09.382
- what we needed to do and what we needed to say in this support. I felt like we needed to stay the way

02:42:09.382 --> 02:42:18.953
- that we were trying to be. We started this business in 2013 in a garage, kind of like Amazon, but not

02:42:18.953 --> 02:42:29.182
- like Amazon. And as you see, the space that is required is immense. For a little bit of people congregating,

02:42:29.314 --> 02:42:38.426
- The space is just enormous. As you looked at our support letters in the areas, you'd saw things like

02:42:38.426 --> 02:42:47.718
- the landowner himself seeing that this would bring the community, the businesses, the people into that

02:42:47.718 --> 02:42:56.830
- area a little bit more. As you looked at the community of where we are with the Billiards community,

02:42:57.058 --> 02:43:07.763
- you'd see that we bring these communities together. We bring them in a place where they have a place

02:43:07.763 --> 02:43:18.363
- to hone their skills and what they do in this great game of billiards. In page 192 in exhibit four,

02:43:18.363 --> 02:43:26.206
- I wanted to talk about our history and why we're relocating. As you know,

02:43:26.338 --> 02:43:33.533
- Blue Tips was located in Seminary Square and was lost as a result of that redevelopment that is happening

02:43:33.533 --> 02:43:40.525
- and associated with the Bloomington Convention Center. The building is scheduled to be demolished next

02:43:40.525 --> 02:43:47.585
- month, and lease of Blue Tips space was only extended until that August 31st. As a result, the business

02:43:47.585 --> 02:43:54.644
- couldn't continue to operate in an appropriate new location, couldn't be secured in time. So with that,

02:43:54.644 --> 02:43:55.934
- my partners and I,

02:43:56.034 --> 02:44:04.618
- purchased the equipment and the tables. And we went on a hunt to find a place that would fit the needs

02:44:04.618 --> 02:44:13.119
- of a billiard hall and also the parking that's associated with that. If you look at one of our bigger

02:44:13.119 --> 02:44:21.703
- parts of what we do, as I've already alluded to, and that is space, typically when you see a billiards

02:44:21.703 --> 02:44:23.870
- area or a fitness center,

02:44:24.194 --> 02:44:35.103
- associated with a warehouse or a big building unless you can afford those areas that are not there.

02:44:35.103 --> 02:44:46.448
- So if you take a look at the overall alignment of how long it's taken us to even get to this point last

02:44:46.448 --> 02:44:51.902
- year, and I'm sure that Mr. Smith will talk about

02:44:52.866 --> 02:45:01.701
- blue tip before we took over. It is extremely hard. This process has been over a year. When we finally

02:45:01.701 --> 02:45:10.364
- got to the point where we had a building, that's when we found out that this variance or that it was

02:45:10.364 --> 02:45:19.199
- in heavy industrial. We immediately got with Ray and worked how we could get these variances in place.

02:45:19.199 --> 02:45:21.086
- So with that, I would

02:45:21.730 --> 02:45:31.100
- Really appreciate the opportunity to speak to you all. And I hope that this this variance is approved.

02:45:31.100 --> 02:45:40.287
- Thank you, Mr. Eldridge. Do any members of the BZA have questions, Mr. Daly? Like to ask a question.

02:45:40.287 --> 02:45:49.657
- You said is and. Snacks, you know, I'm sorry, I misspoke and that's my fault. We are serving food full

02:45:49.657 --> 02:45:51.294
- kitchen. Is this?

02:45:51.778 --> 02:46:01.294
- Pizza, finger foods, paninis. Everything that you were offering at the second street location? Yes.

02:46:01.294 --> 02:46:10.905
- Yes. Okay. So you'll have a one-way license as well? Yes. When you say one-way license, is that just

02:46:10.905 --> 02:46:21.278
- beer and spirits? Yes. So one-way being beer, two-way being beer and wine, and three-way being liquor. Yeah.

02:46:21.602 --> 02:46:32.537
- Liquor? No, not liquor. Beer and wine, yes. All right, I guess that's all I have. Yeah, I just want

02:46:32.537 --> 02:46:43.800
- to understand it a little better. The food area won't be in any way separated from the billiards area.

02:46:43.800 --> 02:46:48.830
- Is that right? I mean, there won't be a wall.

02:46:49.122 --> 02:46:55.080
- The kitchen will be separated, obviously, but yeah, no, the food is served in the same areas that the

02:46:55.080 --> 02:47:00.922
- pool tables are. And that's so when the league play is going on, they don't have to go somewhere to

02:47:00.922 --> 02:47:07.056
- eat. There'll be a kind of like this or... It's not a dining area, if I may interject. It's not a dining

02:47:07.056 --> 02:47:09.918
- area. You walk in, you pay for your pool or your

02:47:10.050 --> 02:47:17.104
- whatever else they have. And then you can also order your food right there. And then when you get it,

02:47:17.104 --> 02:47:24.088
- they might have one or two tables, but it's not, there's no dining area. You eat around where you're

02:47:24.088 --> 02:47:31.211
- shooting pool. The room's gonna be filled with pool tables. And there'll be little shelving around the

02:47:31.211 --> 02:47:38.334
- edges, I imagine, to put your sodas and whatever you're drinking in your pizza. Nothing on the tables.

02:47:38.754 --> 02:47:45.873
- Okay, I hadn't figured that out. I appreciate the clarifications. Thank you. I did want to read this

02:47:45.873 --> 02:47:53.062
- letter because I didn't have it in time to put in the package from the Greater Bloomington Chamber of

02:47:53.062 --> 02:48:00.674
- Commerce, if that's okay. Sure, you still have seven and a half minutes left. Okay. The Greater Bloomington

02:48:00.674 --> 02:48:07.934
- Chapter of Commerce supports Blue Tips use variance requests for its proposed relocation at 5120 South

02:48:08.162 --> 02:48:15.104
- commercial street. Blue Tip is an established local business facing unusual circumstance. Its long-time

02:48:15.104 --> 02:48:21.847
- location was acquired for the convention center expansion, requiring the business to find a new home

02:48:21.847 --> 02:48:28.589
- on a timeline that allows it to maintain customers, league play, and continuity of operations. After

02:48:28.589 --> 02:48:35.398
- an extensive property search, Blue Tip has identified an existing commercial industrial building that

02:48:35.398 --> 02:48:37.534
- can accommodate its operations.

02:48:37.634 --> 02:48:45.228
- We recognize the concerns raised by planning staff regarding the heavy industrial zoning designation

02:48:45.228 --> 02:48:52.821
- and required findings for a use variance. However, the staff report also concludes that the proposed

02:48:52.821 --> 02:49:00.339
- use would not be injurious to public health, safety, or general welfare and would not substantially

02:49:00.339 --> 02:49:03.422
- adversely affect surrounding properties.

02:49:03.810 --> 02:49:10.445
- The surrounding areas already include commercial and industrial uses, and the neighbors' business have

02:49:10.445 --> 02:49:16.951
- submitted letters of support that are located in the packet. From the Chamber's perspective, this is

02:49:16.951 --> 02:49:23.457
- a business retention and adaptive reuse of Blue Tip. It's not proposing a new commercial development

02:49:23.457 --> 02:49:30.221
- in an undeveloped area. It is attempting to reuse an existing building and remain in Monroe County after

02:49:30.221 --> 02:49:32.798
- being displaced by a significant public

02:49:33.378 --> 02:49:40.121
- project. While recognizing the general business may provide another path, the additional time required

02:49:40.121 --> 02:49:47.125
- has real consequences for an operating business. We believe our land use process should provide reasonable

02:49:47.125 --> 02:49:54.326
- flexibility when an established local business can reuse an existing property without creating a demonstrated

02:49:54.326 --> 02:49:57.534
- adverse impact on the neighbor or the community.

02:50:00.354 --> 02:50:06.509
- Thank you. I have a couple of questions while you're still up there. One is, how late do you anticipate

02:50:06.509 --> 02:50:12.604
- being open? So the current hours would be 11 or 12 o'clock. As soon as league play would end, we would

02:50:12.604 --> 02:50:18.522
- be out of there. At 11 or 12 o'clock, roughly? Yes, sir. OK. And then my second question is, do you

02:50:18.522 --> 02:50:23.966
- plan to have any kind of outdoor patio or any kind of outdoor area for customers to gather?

02:50:24.706 --> 02:50:31.993
- So right now, that's not a plan in what we're doing. We are going to look at having like a gazebo because

02:50:31.993 --> 02:50:38.318
- there are smokers and it does get cold. And so having something like that is in the future,

02:50:38.318 --> 02:50:45.192
- but not for today. We would just request that we get through this process because we've been closed

02:50:45.192 --> 02:50:48.286
- for a long time and it's taken a toll. Okay.

02:50:48.514 --> 02:50:56.090
- Thank you, sir. I have a question. I read in one of the letters that you've been searching for an alternate

02:50:56.090 --> 02:51:03.104
- property for over a year and you've had some that have been rejected because of parking limitations

02:51:03.104 --> 02:51:10.329
- and other things. Can you tell us something about that fruitless search? Yeah, I could absolutely hand

02:51:10.329 --> 02:51:15.870
- that over to Mr. Smith when he comes up here. But we've either had like on the

02:51:16.066 --> 02:51:23.047
- SR 46 spot right outside in Ellisville where the golfing place is. Yes. Imagine it would have been a

02:51:23.047 --> 02:51:30.097
- nice place. Unfortunately, you have to get those tables in there and you have to have the space to be

02:51:30.097 --> 02:51:37.078
- able to move around as a fire hazard. So we couldn't use that space. When you look at the stall, the

02:51:37.078 --> 02:51:39.774
- old stalls furniture building, we were

02:51:39.874 --> 02:51:48.002
- ready to do that also. It did have limited marketing, but when we talked to the owner, they didn't want

02:51:48.002 --> 02:51:56.208
- to separate the 7,000 square feet that we needed. They wanted us to have the entire thing at that price.

02:51:56.208 --> 02:52:01.054
- And it's not feasible with the ability to open that business.

02:52:02.146 --> 02:52:08.413
- So those are the two places you've looked at. It must be hard to find a property that fits your needs

02:52:08.413 --> 02:52:14.864
- because pool tables, billiards tables are so large. Yes. And you need space around them too. So it can't

02:52:14.864 --> 02:52:21.131
- be easy to find that spot. No, ma'am. The last question is who are the other businesses on commercial

02:52:21.131 --> 02:52:27.582
- drive? I don't drive on commercial drive. Are they all heavy industrial or are they a variety of things?

02:52:27.582 --> 02:52:30.654
- Maybe that's better staff question. I don't know.

02:52:31.778 --> 02:52:40.165
- There's quite a few automotive repair uses. I don't know if some built rentals is directly on that street,

02:52:40.165 --> 02:52:48.239
- but there's a transmission or automotive repair. A lot of, you know, service based industries. There's

02:52:48.239 --> 02:52:55.294
- not any businesses that are typically like retail oriented or inviting the general public

02:52:55.586 --> 02:53:02.449
- out for a long extension of time. It's usually go drop off what you need to get dropped off for service

02:53:02.449 --> 02:53:09.115
- or pick up what you need to get and then leave. Yes. Thank you. I just wondered what else was in the

02:53:09.115 --> 02:53:15.912
- heavy industrial size project and it sounds like automotive. Heavy repair, that's what it sounds like.

02:53:15.912 --> 02:53:17.694
- Rumkey is also at the end.

02:53:17.794 --> 02:53:24.886
- Sunbelt rentals, I think is there, right? Yes. At the end of the cul-de-sac, which is a big change and

02:53:24.886 --> 02:53:31.841
- as a significant amount of traffic at a lot of different hours is rumpkey. Yeah, they're pretty big.

02:53:31.841 --> 02:53:38.796
- And they did. They were required to do some improvements to that intersection as you enter the site.

02:53:38.796 --> 02:53:45.406
- So it has been improved. And we did talk to the highway department. They said it's pretty well.

02:53:45.858 --> 02:53:52.406
- suited for and does it for traffic essentially. So we could accommodate traffic people in and out. That's

02:53:52.406 --> 02:53:58.707
- what you're telling me. Yes, I think the only thing that was mentioned was Commercial Street has seen

02:53:58.707 --> 02:54:05.316
- some uptake of people trying to park on the road and there is some no parking on the road sign. So knowing

02:54:05.316 --> 02:54:11.802
- that this parking would accommodate their customers, they should just be aware that they cannot overflow

02:54:11.802 --> 02:54:13.470
- into the road. Yes, ma'am.

02:54:14.242 --> 02:54:21.311
- Okay, thank you. You've answered my questions. Was there someone else who was wishing to speak on behalf

02:54:21.311 --> 02:54:28.043
- of the petition here? Okay, are you together? So no, no, he was he is for the variance. He's he had

02:54:28.043 --> 02:54:35.044
- blue tip before us. And I wanted you know, if there was any more thoughts or comments, I wanted to make

02:54:35.044 --> 02:54:40.766
- sure that he had an opportunity. Okay, we'll turn to you then when we open it up for

02:54:41.250 --> 02:54:47.059
- for public comment, but let me first make sure that nobody on the board has any additional questions

02:54:47.059 --> 02:54:52.869
- for the petitioner. Okay, thank you, sir. If anybody speaks in opposition to this, you'll be able to

02:54:52.869 --> 02:54:58.735
- come back up for five minutes afterwards to address any concerns. I just wanted to add one more thing

02:54:58.735 --> 02:55:02.014
- about the properties that are adjacent to us, behind us.

02:55:02.114 --> 02:55:09.999
- As you look out the doors of the garage, all of that is is owned by Mr. George Shermer. And we do have

02:55:09.999 --> 02:55:17.884
- his letter with those properties really wanting us to get in there. OK, and it looks like he's got his

02:55:17.884 --> 02:55:25.922
- hand raised online. So we'll take his comment. And last question, how long has that property been vacant

02:55:25.922 --> 02:55:29.214
- before you have found it? It looks newish.

02:55:29.794 --> 02:55:35.567
- I would have to defer that to Mr. Schermer. Okay, thanks. Thank you. Let's turn now to public comment.

02:55:35.567 --> 02:55:41.339
- If there's anybody here in the room who wishes to speak in favor, sir, you're welcome to come back up.

02:55:41.339 --> 02:55:44.926
- If you can sign in and then state your name, I'll swear you in.

02:56:00.290 --> 02:56:07.246
- Smith hey can you raise your right hand do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but

02:56:07.246 --> 02:56:14.203
- the truth yes I do okay you'll have three minutes so previous owner of blue tip so I'm the one who had

02:56:14.203 --> 02:56:21.024
- the business winners of 426 South College I sold the business 21st of August to Tim Aldridge and his

02:56:21.024 --> 02:56:27.102
- partners I have been looking for over two and a half years for a new location no one that

02:56:27.554 --> 02:56:35.579
- the possibility of the convention center taking over the property there at seminary point was very possible.

02:56:35.579 --> 02:56:43.015
- So through my two and a half years of searching for a location, it is very difficult to find a space

02:56:43.015 --> 02:56:50.377
- big enough with enough parking at the right price point because I'd say the billiards business is a

02:56:50.377 --> 02:56:54.942
- low margin business. There's not much money to be made there.

02:56:56.290 --> 02:57:05.728
- There's money to be made, but it's not enough. I'm sorry. I guess I'm saying it wrong. It's very difficult

02:57:05.728 --> 02:57:14.902
- to move to your big commercial areas like College College Mall Road or Third Street where Kroger's and.

02:57:14.902 --> 02:57:23.987
- Is all that because that is prime read a prime commercial retail. You're looking at $1820 square foot,

02:57:23.987 --> 02:57:25.310
- if not higher.

02:57:26.498 --> 02:57:33.642
- So Bluetooth just can't command that type of pricing when we pass it along to the customers because

02:57:33.642 --> 02:57:41.071
- you're looking at charging $3, $4 a game of pool or $15, $20 for an hour on a pool table. I'd also like

02:57:41.071 --> 02:57:48.644
- to submit that as Billiards Hall, we are more of a service type of business and we are a product oriented

02:57:48.644 --> 02:57:54.430
- business because we rent the pool tables, we don't sell pool tables. We do offer

02:57:55.010 --> 02:58:02.040
- food and drink to our customers as an add-on, but the primary portion of that business is billiards.

02:58:02.040 --> 02:58:09.000
- People come in there and play billiards. They don't come in there to order food. They don't come in

02:58:09.000 --> 02:58:16.308
- there to get beer. They come in there primarily to shoot pool and get with buddies and have a good time.

02:58:16.308 --> 02:58:23.408
- A good, clean, fun time. If you were to go and look back for the last five years while I've owned it,

02:58:23.408 --> 02:58:24.382
- blue tip that

02:58:24.642 --> 02:58:32.127
- I believe the police have only been called out once or twice in five years. And that was because one

02:58:32.127 --> 02:58:39.835
- person in ambulance, because we had a heart attack. And then we've had two run ins with homeless people

02:58:39.835 --> 02:58:47.617
- from Seminary Park. Other than that, I can't recall any fights we had. So I mean, a lot of the customers

02:58:47.617 --> 02:58:53.694
- who do in the pool community here at Bloomington are very well respected and keep

02:58:55.522 --> 02:59:03.200
- I guess a good, a good attitude and aren't looking for trouble. They just want to come out, shoot full

02:59:03.200 --> 02:59:10.654
- and have fun. That's pretty much my school. Perfect timing. Thank you, sir. Anyone else here in the

02:59:10.654 --> 02:59:18.108
- room who wishes to speak in favor? Come on up. You can sign in and then state your name. I'll swear

02:59:18.108 --> 02:59:23.102
- you in. I'm Greg Adamson. Okay. If you could go ahead and sign in.

02:59:32.322 --> 02:59:38.452
- Could you raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

02:59:38.452 --> 02:59:44.764
- truth? Yes, I do. OK, thank you. I'll have three minutes. So I tell you, I came back to this town after

02:59:44.764 --> 02:59:50.955
- being gone for 20 years, six years ago. Looking for some way to socialize, some way to meet people in

02:59:50.955 --> 02:59:57.085
- this town, some way to have fun, where I can meet people that's not at a bar, that's doing something

02:59:57.085 --> 02:59:59.998
- competitive. That was just what I wanted to do.

03:00:01.346 --> 03:00:08.657
- I had a hard time finding things like that. And one night I went to the pool hall. I'd played a long

03:00:08.657 --> 03:00:15.969
- time ago, hadn't done it in a long time. Then I found out they got elite there, plays every week. So

03:00:15.969 --> 03:00:23.932
- I wanted to spend a night of my week doing that, something that I could meet people, have good conversations,

03:00:23.932 --> 03:00:30.302
- good camaraderie, make a lot of friends in a very accepting place. That's what I found.

03:00:30.850 --> 03:00:37.107
- Last six years, I've created a great group of friends by doing this. And I probably wouldn't have that

03:00:37.107 --> 03:00:43.182
- if I didn't have the pool hall, if I didn't have that stuff. And I'm one of several hundred in this

03:00:43.182 --> 03:00:49.501
- town that has been in that same place, that that's the way they've made friends, that's the way they've

03:00:49.501 --> 03:00:55.636
- connected. And if we don't have this, that's gonna probably go away because it's very hard to find a

03:00:55.636 --> 03:00:59.646
- place to even put a place like this. Before we had these leagues,

03:01:00.098 --> 03:01:06.714
- They were in the bars here in town. Nobody wants us, nobody wants to play in the bars. We don't want

03:01:06.714 --> 03:01:13.527
- the excessive drinking, the nonsense that goes on. We just want to play pool and do it in a competitive

03:01:13.527 --> 03:01:20.340
- way. We need a dedicated place to do that. It can't be that kind of environment. So we found that where

03:01:20.340 --> 03:01:27.087
- we're at. We've been very dedicated to that. We've had a large group of people come and help. We moved

03:01:27.087 --> 03:01:29.118
- the entire pool hall in a day.

03:01:29.410 --> 03:01:37.186
- with all the help that we had. We just want to continue that. We don't want to go away. Because we don't

03:01:37.186 --> 03:01:45.183
- want to have to go back to bars. It's going to go away. We've done so well to our teams here have regularly

03:01:45.183 --> 03:01:52.663
- went to Vegas and placed in the top 16, top 32 in the world because of this environment we've played

03:01:52.663 --> 03:01:56.958
- in and the league we've been in. That is very hard to do.

03:01:59.042 --> 03:02:04.675
- I just want you guys to consider this is a community thing where all these people from the community

03:02:04.675 --> 03:02:10.253
- come around. If we can't find a place to put this, it's probably gonna go away and we're gonna lose

03:02:10.253 --> 03:02:15.942
- all this. All these people are gonna lose all these connections and all this camaraderie we get. It's

03:02:15.942 --> 03:02:21.743
- just gonna be a loss, loss to the community. So I wanna make sure that we do something. Thank you, sir.

03:02:21.743 --> 03:02:25.982
- Anyone else here in the room who wishes to speak in favor of this petition?

03:02:29.314 --> 03:02:36.095
- to online, anyone who wishes to speak in favor, please raise your virtual hand if we could promote Mr.

03:02:36.095 --> 03:02:42.744
- Shermer to a presenter. Mr. Shermer, you should be able to unmute now. If you could state your name.

03:02:42.744 --> 03:02:49.393
- Can you hear me now? Yes, we can. If you could state your name. Oh, great. Raise your right hand. Do

03:02:49.393 --> 03:02:56.174
- you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? I sure will. Okay, you'll have

03:02:56.174 --> 03:02:57.886
- three minutes. All right.

03:02:58.370 --> 03:03:07.574
- Just first of all, I want to. Clear up a couple of things, just just some clarification for the for

03:03:07.574 --> 03:03:16.962
- the board there. The property to the East and the property to the West. Are both owned by myself and.

03:03:16.962 --> 03:03:26.718
- We do. Park a couple of people on the street that work for us, mainly because they drive to Indianapolis.

03:03:27.106 --> 03:03:37.532
- to work construction work. But what makes this piece of property unique is that it has over 40 parking

03:03:37.532 --> 03:03:47.655
- spots to go along with the 7,000 plus square feet. And I know the BZA is aware when this industrial

03:03:47.655 --> 03:03:56.158
- park first was built, and when I say first built, I was the first building in there

03:03:56.386 --> 03:04:07.402
- Um, in 2001, the first building on the right, uh, when it was a cornfield and, um, we didn't have the

03:04:07.402 --> 03:04:18.634
- ability at that time to even bring three phase into the industrial park. So we always struggled to even

03:04:18.634 --> 03:04:21.982
- have it be a light industrial.

03:04:22.882 --> 03:04:31.454
- Well, when Rumpke decided that they needed a new place and the county needed more places to dump and,

03:04:31.454 --> 03:04:40.531
- you know, they needed heavy industrial. Well, Rumpke was the very last thing that was put in the industrial

03:04:40.531 --> 03:04:46.750
- park. And in order to do that, they had to change it to heavy industrial.

03:04:47.938 --> 03:04:55.448
- Well, all the buildings that you're talking about, the ones that I'm in, the ones that the pool hall

03:04:55.448 --> 03:05:02.884
- wants to go in, the one across the street, even Sunbelt, we all originally built under the variance

03:05:02.884 --> 03:05:10.469
- of light industrial. You couldn't put heavy industrial anything in there because you don't have power

03:05:10.469 --> 03:05:14.782
- to do it. There's no three phase power anywhere in there.

03:05:16.994 --> 03:05:25.988
- So we've been kind of backed into this corner a little bit by the county that they've rezoned us. And

03:05:25.988 --> 03:05:35.071
- said you go find hot heavy industrial people to fill it well. This the buildings in there are all very

03:05:35.071 --> 03:05:44.329
- much the same. They're you know, steel buildings. Most have very limited parking. This piece of property

03:05:44.329 --> 03:05:46.622
- doesn't 42 parking spots.

03:05:47.778 --> 03:05:54.916
- And you should give these guys an opportunity. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Anyone else online who wishes

03:05:54.916 --> 03:06:02.054
- to speak in favor of this petition? Seeing no one, is there anyone here in the room who wishes to speak

03:06:02.054 --> 03:06:09.124
- against this petition? If so, you're welcome to come to the podium. Anyone who wishes to speak against

03:06:09.124 --> 03:06:12.350
- this petition, please raise your virtual hand.

03:06:15.234 --> 03:06:22.342
- Seeing no one, we'll close the public comment and come back to the BCA for discussion. May I ask one

03:06:22.342 --> 03:06:29.661
- question to the owner of the petitioner? Yeah, could you come forward to the podium so we can hear you?

03:06:29.661 --> 03:06:36.769
- Yes, sir. You proposed 40 tables for this. What was the? Is it 2020? 20 tables? Yes, sir. That's all

03:06:36.769 --> 03:06:44.862
- we have right now. And is that the most you would ever want in this location? There's room for an additional four.

03:06:45.250 --> 03:06:53.533
- that could be growth, but this would bring regionals to Bloomington. And right now when we get to the

03:06:53.533 --> 03:06:57.918
- regional areas, whether it's BCA or APA, these people

03:06:58.018 --> 03:07:06.872
- have to go to Fort Wayne or to Indianapolis at John Wayne's which is another billiards hall and that

03:07:06.872 --> 03:07:15.639
- revenue leaves here and it doesn't come here. With this kind of facility where we have the facility

03:07:15.639 --> 03:07:24.318
- to do it we would be able to bring those regionals here we would have more events like the weekend

03:07:25.058 --> 03:07:33.202
- Chip tournaments that bring everyone around in the first in the five counties, but I Wanted to say this

03:07:33.202 --> 03:07:41.345
- and I apologize for not saying it during my 15 minutes You know currently we have a nine ball team that

03:07:41.345 --> 03:07:45.182
- placed 17th in the world in Vegas just this last

03:07:45.410 --> 03:07:52.622
- go around in August. And that's only been because of blue tip and the ability to have diamond tables

03:07:52.622 --> 03:07:59.906
- with great Simona cloth on them to play like you play in the pros. When you go to Vegas, you get that

03:07:59.906 --> 03:08:07.404
- kind of table. And that's what we offer. And, you know, that that team, I'm selfishly going to say this,

03:08:07.404 --> 03:08:14.974
- it was my team. And Craig was on that team also. But that's only from the great opportunities that a good

03:08:15.650 --> 03:08:22.580
- Billiard Hall does. And how many, is that the same number of tables you had at the prior location? No,

03:08:22.580 --> 03:08:29.442
- no sir. How many did you have at the prior location? Fourteen. Fourteen. The older, well I don't want

03:08:29.442 --> 03:08:36.372
- to speak out of turn, but there was fourteen, there was the oldest snooker table. That's okay, I don't

03:08:36.372 --> 03:08:43.301
- need that level of detail, but that's good. Thank you for helping me understand the scope, that you're

03:08:43.301 --> 03:08:45.118
- increasing your size some.

03:08:45.890 --> 03:08:57.836
- Great, thank you. I'll offer some comment. I've been to the business when it was on Second Street. Both

03:08:57.836 --> 03:09:09.897
- sides responsible in terms of the drinking, the food was surprisingly good. The atmosphere is fantastic.

03:09:09.897 --> 03:09:15.870
- The folks that go there are lovely. The business is

03:09:16.066 --> 03:09:26.243
- run well, but more importantly in terms of what we have in front of us, I recall several exceptions,

03:09:26.243 --> 03:09:36.420
- a precedent of exception to this specifically. Businesses like the VFW, businesses like Upland West,

03:09:36.420 --> 03:09:45.086
- businesses like Bloomington Brewing Company that were all in a very similar situation

03:09:45.282 --> 03:09:54.355
- received some exceptions. So I think we have a precedent of this being before us. So I just wanted to

03:09:54.355 --> 03:10:03.339
- offer that. I have one staff question. Mr. Devalle, did you say at the start that under the light in

03:10:03.339 --> 03:10:12.234
- the prior zoning that this would have been permitted? No, no, it wouldn't have been permitted under

03:10:12.234 --> 03:10:14.814
- the current or prior zoning.

03:10:15.554 --> 03:10:22.848
- No, it's not permitted under either. OK, great. I that would be an important factor. I wanted to make

03:10:22.848 --> 03:10:30.285
- sure I understood. Thank you. And I should clarify to the witnesses that we have our our concern always

03:10:30.285 --> 03:10:37.793
- is that variance goes with the property, not with this particular owner. So it affects it for all times.

03:10:37.793 --> 03:10:42.942
- And that is a very important consideration we always take into account.

03:10:46.178 --> 03:10:55.751
- All of that said, it seems to me that this is a very appropriate use of a structure that's been vacant.

03:10:55.751 --> 03:11:05.140
- And while we don't know who's going to be there next, we do know that this is an appropriate use that

03:11:05.140 --> 03:11:07.902
- starts it off on a good foot.

03:11:08.130 --> 03:11:14.966
- So I'm supportive of this. I do live in the neighborhood, but I don't think it's going to degrade the

03:11:14.966 --> 03:11:21.936
- neighborhood. And I also can appreciate that the farmer owner looked for two and a half years for other

03:11:21.936 --> 03:11:28.839
- space, and now you've been looking for quite a while, the number of parking spaces and the size of it.

03:11:28.839 --> 03:11:35.676
- You do have very unique needs for that. So I'm very sympathetic. Do we have any more comments? I have

03:11:35.676 --> 03:11:37.150
- a question for staff.

03:11:37.474 --> 03:11:46.637
- That is, there's a property adjacent to this and a couple on commercial drive or production drive that

03:11:46.637 --> 03:11:55.978
- are zoned general business. And would the entertainment center and restaurant be permitted under general

03:11:55.978 --> 03:11:58.558
- business? Yes, actually. So.

03:11:59.106 --> 03:12:04.164
- As stated in the third building, there is a property adjoining the sub-department that is on general

03:12:04.164 --> 03:12:09.272
- business. The petitioner could instead request the rezone or seek out the adjoining property building

03:12:09.272 --> 03:12:14.430
- facility for this purpose on the GB zoned property. Okay, thank you. It's literally like where Steve's

03:12:14.430 --> 03:12:19.538
- roofing is, it's like right there. Right, so if we denied this, they could buy the property next door

03:12:19.538 --> 03:12:24.696
- and build it without. Conceptually. Conceptually, right, which influences my opinion, I think. And the

03:12:24.696 --> 03:12:27.550
- zoning map is on the right there for you all. Thank you.

03:12:27.938 --> 03:12:37.180
- Well, I'm going to recommend that we approve variance 26-39A. Blue tip used variance to add entertainment

03:12:37.180 --> 03:12:46.772
- center to heavy industrial chapter 808 and also variance 26-39B. The blue tip used variance to add restaurant

03:12:46.772 --> 03:12:48.254
- sit down because

03:12:48.418 --> 03:12:55.731
- It really isn't, it's more like a snack bar plus plus. Sit down to heavy industrial chapter 808. And

03:12:55.731 --> 03:13:03.262
- the reason I'm making that motion is I'm very compelled by the argument that business would leave town.

03:13:03.554 --> 03:13:10.397
- There's no other place to play except the bars, except maybe the union. Maybe there's but it's got to

03:13:10.397 --> 03:13:17.240
- be small. So I can really understand how difficult it is to find appropriate space for this. And that

03:13:17.240 --> 03:13:24.217
- has everything to do with my making that motion. And I will second based on that and the fact that this

03:13:24.217 --> 03:13:31.060
- board has been up against this exact situation in the past. We want business to stay in town. And I'm

03:13:31.060 --> 03:13:32.670
- going to add the notes.

03:13:32.866 --> 03:13:41.176
- already been seconded. I really didn't know anything about this, having such a community and being such

03:13:41.176 --> 03:13:49.326
- an important part of the community and us having nationally ranked, you know, we don't have that many

03:13:49.326 --> 03:13:57.716
- nationally ranked teams sometimes in Monroe County, so I'm glad to have another. I did notice one thing.

03:13:57.716 --> 03:14:02.590
- They misspelled Hoosiers on your hat. Oh, we're not in here.

03:14:05.026 --> 03:14:12.014
- Okay, we have a motion and a second. Could you call the roll Jackie? Sure. The motion on the floor is

03:14:12.014 --> 03:14:19.413
- to VAR-26-39A and 39B. The first is a use variance to entertainment center to the heavy industrial district

03:14:19.413 --> 03:14:26.538
- to chapter 808. And 39B is a use variance to add restaurant sit down use to heavy industrial to chapter

03:14:26.538 --> 03:14:34.142
- 808. A vote yes is a vote to approve both use variances at the same time without conditions. Jeff Morris? Yes.

03:14:34.626 --> 03:14:42.571
- Pamela Davidson? Yes. Skip Daly? Yes. Skye Lofman? Yes. Motion is approved four to zero. Hey,

03:14:42.571 --> 03:14:51.530
- thank you all. Good luck. Moving on to item number 18, this is VAR-26-40. This is the Childress Buildable

03:14:51.530 --> 03:15:00.235
- Area Special Flood Hazard Area to Chapter 813. And Mr. Daly, this one looks like it has a recognition.

03:15:00.235 --> 03:15:02.686
- Angela Steven is now exiting

03:15:05.442 --> 03:15:13.850
- I don't know who our narrator is tonight, but I don't know what's going on there. Yes, may I have the

03:15:13.850 --> 03:15:22.176
- floor? Yes. Well, thanks. Assistant Director, I've got a quick question for you. Can you confirm for

03:15:22.176 --> 03:15:28.606
- me that the petitioner has done their statutory requirement for notification?

03:15:29.346 --> 03:15:39.340
- Correct. Great. I'm going to ask a question of the audience and the folks online. Is there anybody here

03:15:39.340 --> 03:15:49.623
- that is intending to object or contest variance 26-40? I don't see anybody in the room. Do you see anybody

03:15:49.623 --> 03:15:57.022
- online, Sherman? No. No? All right. Well, with that being said, based on the

03:15:57.506 --> 03:16:05.507
- The approval for the application for design standards variance here that is the conditions seem to be

03:16:05.507 --> 03:16:13.350
- met based on the evidence found in our packet and the recommendation of due diligence of staff says

03:16:13.350 --> 03:16:19.390
- approval. I'm going to request that we end the debate and call the question.

03:16:22.082 --> 03:16:31.590
- Moved and seconded to call to question on BAR-26-40. A vote yes is a vote to call to question. Pamela

03:16:31.590 --> 03:16:41.005
- Davidson? Yes. Skip Daly? Yes. Guy Loftman? Yes. Jeff Morris? Yes. Okay, that motion carries four to

03:16:41.005 --> 03:16:51.166
- zero. Mr. Chair, may I have the floor again? Yes. Well, thank you. I would like to move that variance 26-40.

03:16:51.746 --> 03:17:07.945
- be approved based on staff recommendations that the conditions here are being met based on chapter 825

03:17:07.945 --> 03:17:21.470
- and the flood damage prevention. Yeah, that's all I have. Is that chapter 813 or 825?

03:17:22.690 --> 03:17:31.828
- Which is that? It'll be to 813. 813. But it's saying that the staff is recognizing that the plans meet

03:17:31.828 --> 03:17:40.789
- Chapter 825's flood damage prevention standards. Right, they need to apply for, well, they're in the

03:17:40.789 --> 03:17:50.814
- process of permit review for the floodplain, and mostly I just need a few more details about the utilities, but,

03:17:50.946 --> 03:17:58.939
- the structure that you're looking at for this one, which is the driveway itself, that's what the variance

03:17:58.939 --> 03:18:06.479
- is for. So we're just making sure that once this is, variance is approved, we're gonna continue the

03:18:06.479 --> 03:18:14.171
- review of the flood damage prevention permit. Well, thank you for that clarification. In Chapter 825.

03:18:14.171 --> 03:18:17.790
- I misread this, I apologize. All right. I will,

03:18:19.458 --> 03:18:30.030
- move that we approve variance 26-40 based on the recommended motion of approval by staff. Second. Okay,

03:18:30.030 --> 03:18:40.297
- it's been moved and seconded to approve VAR-26-40, the Childress Buildable Area Special Flood Hazard

03:18:40.297 --> 03:18:48.734
- Area to Chapter 813. A vote yes is a vote to approve. Skip Daly? Yes. Guy Loftman?

03:18:49.122 --> 03:18:54.334
- Yes. Jeff Morris. Yes. Pamela Davidson. Yes. Motion is approved four to zero.

03:18:54.978 --> 03:19:02.570
- Okay, moving on to items 19, 20, and 21 on the agenda. These are VAR-26-41A, 41B, 41C. This is the Ballard

03:19:02.570 --> 03:19:09.948
- front yard setback, various to chapter 805. The Ballard Eco Area 2 residential density maximum, various

03:19:09.948 --> 03:19:17.256
- to chapter 823. And the Ballard Eco Area 2 one acre contiguous buildable area, various to chapter 823.

03:19:17.256 --> 03:19:20.094
- So Mr. Brown, I'll turn it over to you.

03:19:20.514 --> 03:19:27.092
- Thank you. So the purpose of this petition is to extend a porch on an existing house. In 2022, the property

03:19:27.092 --> 03:19:33.244
- owner was issued a residential building permit for the construction of a 90 by 32 square foot single

03:19:33.244 --> 03:19:39.579
- family residence. However, during construction and alteration to the approved plan was made in the form

03:19:39.579 --> 03:19:45.670
- of a front porch measuring eight feet by 12 feet. The planning department staff was not notified of

03:19:45.670 --> 03:19:48.350
- this deviation from the approved plot plan.

03:19:48.738 --> 03:19:54.875
- said porch also encroaches into the front yards of back of the property. In August of 2026, the petitioner

03:19:54.875 --> 03:20:00.783
- came to the planning department office wanting to extend the front porch and gabled roof. Furthermore,

03:20:00.783 --> 03:20:06.576
- the subject property does not meet two of these standards in chapter 823 regarding the environmental

03:20:06.576 --> 03:20:12.311
- constraints overlay area two. It's also worth noting that at the time of the building construction,

03:20:12.311 --> 03:20:15.294
- the property was in the now defunct eco area three.

03:20:17.634 --> 03:20:23.626
- So regarding the front yard setback, this subject property has road furniture along North Viking Ridge

03:20:23.626 --> 03:20:29.561
- Road, which is a local road according to the Monroe County thoroughfare development plan. Chapter 805

03:20:29.561 --> 03:20:35.437
- of the county development ordinance and the subdivision plat that this property is located in states

03:20:35.437 --> 03:20:41.662
- that a front yard setback for a local road shall be 25 feet from the edge of right of way. The subdivision

03:20:41.794 --> 03:20:49.702
- shows that they did previously dedicate 25 feet of right-of-way, which means their total front setback

03:20:49.702 --> 03:20:57.379
- is 50 feet from the center line of North Viking Ridge Road. The existing home is only approximately

03:20:57.379 --> 03:21:05.209
- 58 feet back from the center line of the road, so the existing porch is encroaching approximately six

03:21:05.209 --> 03:21:10.430
- and a half feet. Furthermore, it does not meet proper eco standards

03:21:10.658 --> 03:21:16.716
- three and four shown on this list here. The legal acreage of this petition is 0.66 acres. However, the

03:21:16.716 --> 03:21:22.832
- proposed use does not change the residential density of this lot as it's not adding any new residential

03:21:22.832 --> 03:21:28.890
- units. The lot still requires a variance from this provision prior to any further development. The lot

03:21:28.890 --> 03:21:35.241
- dimensions have existed in their current dimensions since at least 1970, which was before the environmental

03:21:35.241 --> 03:21:37.182
- constraints overlay was adopted.

03:21:38.146 --> 03:21:48.206
- as well as the one acre of continuous buildable area. Staff has measured that the property has an estimated

03:21:48.206 --> 03:21:58.079
- 0.18 acres of area under 15% slope. And here is the structure in question. The plan is for the petitioner

03:21:58.079 --> 03:22:06.462
- to extend this roof and porch out an additional, I believe 12 feet. And here's just some,

03:22:06.690 --> 03:22:15.933
- area showing the slope behind the house. Here is the site plan that has been submitted, as well as the

03:22:15.933 --> 03:22:24.996
- original certified plot plan. As you can see, there is no porch present on that certified plot plan.

03:22:24.996 --> 03:22:33.790
- And so staff recommends denial of VR-26-41A as practical difficulties have not been demonstrated.

03:22:34.018 --> 03:22:40.289
- The petitioner could remove the existing porch to meet the required front step back and not install

03:22:40.289 --> 03:22:46.810
- the extension portion of the new porch or relocate the porch to elsewhere on the site such as the back.

03:22:46.810 --> 03:22:53.144
- Approval of VR-26-44B, we're recommending approval as practical difficulties have been demonstrated.

03:22:53.144 --> 03:22:59.666
- More specifically, the lot cannot meet the residential area requirements. This variance would be needed

03:22:59.666 --> 03:23:02.174
- for any new development on the property

03:23:02.274 --> 03:23:09.000
- on less supply of them and is pursued. It's also worth noting that the lot has existed in its present

03:23:09.000 --> 03:23:15.727
- dimensions since 1970, and the eco-regulations were not put in place until 1992. And staff recommends

03:23:15.727 --> 03:23:22.387
- approval of VAR-26-41C for the same reasons as VAR-26-41B. And I will take any questions. Thank you,

03:23:22.387 --> 03:23:29.048
- Mr. Brown. Let's go ahead and turn to the petitioner. If the petitioner's here in the room and would

03:23:29.048 --> 03:23:31.422
- like to speak, please come forward.

03:23:33.026 --> 03:23:41.015
- You can sign in and then I'll swear you in. Could you state your name and raise your right hand?

03:23:41.015 --> 03:23:49.252
- Dave Weaver. Okay, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? I do.

03:23:49.252 --> 03:23:57.488
- Okay, you have 15 minutes. Okay, so thank you very much for your time and certainly your dedication

03:23:57.488 --> 03:24:02.430
- to this whole process. It's been very enlightening watching

03:24:02.562 --> 03:24:09.446
- going on this evening. So a couple of clarifications. First of all, while this was new construction,

03:24:09.446 --> 03:24:16.330
- when purchased, we did not build this or design it. Our understanding is a gentleman was building it

03:24:16.330 --> 03:24:23.214
- for his father, their plans changed, so he finished it and sold it. So we had nothing to do with the

03:24:23.214 --> 03:24:30.234
- design. So over the past year, year and a half, we started talking about how could we change the porch

03:24:30.234 --> 03:24:31.870
- to give us a more space

03:24:32.066 --> 03:24:38.172
- so we can enjoy the outside. That's a great road. There's kids riding bikes and people walking dogs.

03:24:38.172 --> 03:24:44.398
- It's very pleasant. So how could we do that? And at the same time, thought that the slope of that roof

03:24:44.398 --> 03:24:50.504
- is really nondescript. The whole neighborhood has all sorts of cool little cottages and some ranches

03:24:50.504 --> 03:24:56.670
- and some A-frames. It's a neat, how could we fit in better to the neighborhood? So we started talking

03:24:56.670 --> 03:24:58.302
- about it and the idea was,

03:24:59.746 --> 03:25:07.416
- a little unclear in the description because the idea is not to extend any further into the lawn. It's

03:25:07.416 --> 03:25:15.086
- simply to make it that width again and then put a gable over the top so it's not just a shed roof. So

03:25:15.086 --> 03:25:22.755
- we think it would look really nice and give us a little bit more space to sit around and hang out. So

03:25:22.755 --> 03:25:29.598
- that's the upshot of what we're trying to do. The door, that is the entrance to the house.

03:25:29.986 --> 03:25:38.647
- Um, it's, it's at least two and more like three steps from the ground. So removing it and taking that

03:25:38.647 --> 03:25:47.224
- roof off would be very difficult. Um, and, and, and moving the entrance to around back would also be

03:25:47.224 --> 03:25:56.734
- very difficult. It slopes off very quickly in the back. So I don't know how practically that would be done. So.

03:25:59.362 --> 03:26:06.106
- That's about all I had to say on the matter. May I ask you a question? Go back to that picture you were

03:26:06.106 --> 03:26:12.721
- just showing, please, Mr. Brown. So you're saying that porch is very modest size. I wonder if you can

03:26:12.721 --> 03:26:19.271
- get two chairs on that. That looks pretty cozy. Is it going to go left or right and hug the house is

03:26:19.271 --> 03:26:26.275
- what you're really saying? Yeah, toward the right. Towards the right. Yeah. So it'll still the one entrance

03:26:26.275 --> 03:26:28.350
- door will stay the same and the

03:26:28.546 --> 03:26:33.792
- The porch will basically be doubled in size hugging that house. Yeah, because the door in the center,

03:26:33.792 --> 03:26:38.934
- you can't really sit there because the door is in the center. So this would give you a place to sit

03:26:38.934 --> 03:26:44.128
- and walk past the chairs. That makes sense. I don't see a walkway from the parking area. Is that the

03:26:44.128 --> 03:26:49.271
- way you get into the house or is that not the way you get into your house? You just can't see it in

03:26:49.271 --> 03:26:50.814
- the picture, but there's a...

03:26:51.522 --> 03:26:57.204
- A flat, it's just a board, it's a boardwalk that hugs the house very closely. Oh, I see that now.

03:26:57.204 --> 03:27:03.175
- And again, not our design decision. Yes. But that's how you get into your house from the parking area.

03:27:03.175 --> 03:27:09.089
- Yeah. OK, thanks very much. Thank you. Yeah, Mr. Walker. So you're going to extend this to the right.

03:27:09.089 --> 03:27:14.944
- Will it cover the window? I'm just curious, just to make sure I understand. The gate, the porch will

03:27:14.944 --> 03:27:20.510
- come under the window and then the gable would cover. So the gable will be slightly off center.

03:27:21.090 --> 03:27:28.467
- Um, and cover that right hand window and the exist. So won't the porch or the gable won't extend further

03:27:28.467 --> 03:27:35.704
- that way. It'll start where that, that porch is and then come up and over. Um, thank you to the right.

03:27:35.704 --> 03:27:43.292
- Yep. Any further questions for the position? Uh, position. Okay. Thank you, sir. We'll take public comment.

03:27:43.292 --> 03:27:48.702
- If anybody speaks against, you'll be welcome to come back up. Appreciate it.

03:27:49.058 --> 03:27:56.161
- five minutes. Okay, let's turn now to public comment. Is there anybody here in the room who wishes to

03:27:56.161 --> 03:28:03.264
- speak in favor of this petition? Anyone online? Please raise your virtual hand if you'd like to speak

03:28:03.264 --> 03:28:10.645
- in favor of this petition. Any speak against this petition? Anyone online who would like to speak against

03:28:10.645 --> 03:28:13.918
- this petition? Please raise your virtual hand.

03:28:16.194 --> 03:28:28.397
- Seeing no one, we will close public comment and come back to the BZA for conversation into our motion.

03:28:28.397 --> 03:28:40.363
- It's not getting closer to the road, which I wasn't clear about. There's not much room in that front

03:28:40.363 --> 03:28:45.694
- porch, and I'm pretty sympathetic with that.

03:28:46.178 --> 03:28:52.741
- So I think it's a reasonable request. We'll improve the, and it'll make the neighborhood a nicer place,

03:28:52.741 --> 03:28:59.178
- because it's more easier to sit down and watch the kids riding their bikes go by, and that's good for

03:28:59.178 --> 03:29:05.552
- the kids and everybody else. I appreciate anybody who likes to sit on a porch and watch the world go

03:29:05.552 --> 03:29:12.115
- by, because I spend a lot of time myself doing that. I think that's pretty darn pleasant. Any comments,

03:29:12.115 --> 03:29:15.838
- Mr. Daly? I have a question of staff, if I may, Mr. Chair.

03:29:16.578 --> 03:29:28.329
- The way I understand this is the previous owner built something out of code without permit and permission

03:29:28.329 --> 03:29:39.859
- and then sold the house to this guy and he inherited the problem. Is that what I'm hearing? Let me look

03:29:39.859 --> 03:29:41.854
- up the history of

03:29:41.954 --> 03:29:49.660
- transfer of ownership. I'm just curious, is there not an inspection done and an approval from the county

03:29:49.660 --> 03:29:57.366
- on a sale? So the final inspection by the building department, typically what they're doing is reviewing

03:29:57.366 --> 03:30:05.293
- what was constructed is meeting code. They don't necessarily see to the differences from what was proposed,

03:30:05.293 --> 03:30:11.678
- such as a small modification. They will point it out to us at times, but that would be

03:30:13.634 --> 03:30:21.294
- I would also like to add that the building permit that according to our records, the building permit

03:30:21.294 --> 03:30:28.953
- was issued in twenty twenty two. The current owners purchased the property two years later in twenty

03:30:28.953 --> 03:30:36.613
- twenty four. So there was a permit issued for the work done that without the porch. Yes, we were not

03:30:36.613 --> 03:30:41.694
- made aware of the porch. Oh, OK. Fair enough. All right. I'm good.

03:30:42.434 --> 03:30:51.539
- Okay, do we have a motion? I'm going to recommend we approve the variance 26-41A, the Ballard front

03:30:51.539 --> 03:30:57.822
- yard setback variance to 805. We're sympathetic to that board issue.

03:30:57.922 --> 03:31:06.788
- And also variance 26-41B, the Ballard Eco Area 2 residential density maximum. Variance to chapter 823,

03:31:06.788 --> 03:31:15.482
- as the staff has also recommended approval on that one. And last but not least, variance 26-41C, the

03:31:15.482 --> 03:31:24.521
- Ballard Eco Area 2, one acre contiguous building area variance to chapter 823, also recommended approval

03:31:24.521 --> 03:31:25.726
- by the staff.

03:31:30.626 --> 03:31:41.502
- It's been moved and seconded to approve VAR-26-41A, B and C as enumerated by BZA member Pamela Davidson.

03:31:41.502 --> 03:31:52.377
- A vote yes is a vote to approve A, B and C without conditions. Skip Daly. Yes, I think there's practical

03:31:52.377 --> 03:31:59.006
- difficulties. I don't think you have to remove your porch. Yes.

03:31:59.490 --> 03:32:07.188
- Jeff Morris? Yes. Pamela Davidson? Yes. OK, the motion approves all three variances. Thank you, Mr.

03:32:07.188 --> 03:32:15.118
- Weaver. Thanks for spending time with us. Hopefully your porch is more relaxing than sitting in a room

03:32:15.118 --> 03:32:22.816
- for three hours. Thank you for all the staff members tonight. So the staff, you are so amazing. And

03:32:22.816 --> 03:32:27.358
- it's Daniel's birthday. Daniel's birthday. Should we sing?

03:32:27.618 --> 03:32:33.881
- We do before we adjourn, we do have to come back to administrative business. So if you want to continue

03:32:33.881 --> 03:32:40.264
- that to a future meeting, that's fine. Yeah. So yeah, before we break here, we do have the administrative

03:32:40.264 --> 03:32:46.165
- business still on the agenda. Jackie, do you know what the November agenda is looking like? Yeah,

03:32:46.165 --> 03:32:52.488
- we're not. We don't have too many. So four or five. It could be better heard. OK. And Guy wants to tweak

03:32:52.488 --> 03:32:53.150
- as lawyers

03:32:53.314 --> 03:33:00.030
- can't help themselves doing, he wants to tweak on the language. Didn't you say that? Well, I actually

03:33:00.030 --> 03:33:06.944
- haven't studied it as much as I want, because it's a little complicated. But I do think what we're doing

03:33:06.944 --> 03:33:13.594
- is formalizing something that's become our practice. And I think it's wonderful that it's become our

03:33:13.594 --> 03:33:17.150
- practice. We'd only be halfway through. It's working.

03:33:17.442 --> 03:33:24.062
- So may we continue it? Do we need a motion to continue it? Do we have a motion? I'll move that we continue

03:33:24.062 --> 03:33:30.434
- the procedural rules matter until our next November meeting. OK. So November 4th. All right. It's been

03:33:30.434 --> 03:33:36.683
- moved and seconded to move the rules of procedure change to our November 4th BZA meeting. A vote yes

03:33:36.683 --> 03:33:42.931
- is a vote to approve. Guy Loftman? Yes. Jeff Morris? Yes. Pamela Davidson? Oh, yes. Skip Daley? Yes.

03:33:42.931 --> 03:33:47.262
- All right. We will see you on November 4th. Thank you. Thank you all.

03:33:47.682 --> 03:34:03.198
- I feel remarkably chipper. I didn't think we'd be out of here until 930 at the earliest. Thank you.