- all right ladies and gentlemen thank you for joining us today this is the county council special work
- session agenda uh it is friday august 29th 2025 uh we do have a quorum of council so i'm going to call
- this meeting to order uh with us today we have uh david henry council member marty council member david
- henry council member marty hawke council member liz fidel council member trent dekert
- Councilmember Kate Wilts is walking in and Councilmember Jen Crossley is finding parking, so she'll
- be with us momentarily, but she asked that we start the meeting. This meeting is called to order. You
- can find today's agenda as well as everything Council is going to be looking at on the website for Monroe
- County under the calendar
- session today. So for those of you who are joining us virtually or here in the NatU Hill Room,
- you can find everything that we're going to be looking at online. So thank you for that transparency. Next,
- we'll go to adoption of the agenda. Are there any additions or changes to today's agenda? Go ahead, yeah.
- Mr. President, I have an amendment for the agenda today. I'd like to move up the council comment to
- section two and then have everything proceed after.
- All right, we have a motion on the floor. Is there a second? Yeah. All right, we have a motion to move
- council comment to item number, with the new item number two. Any comments about this?
- Try item two, above the recap, yeah. The adoption of the agenda, yeah. New three? New three, there we go.
- Correct, yeah, it would be the new number three. Gotcha. The rest of them would change as well then.
- And I would just like to say that that would, actually that's fine. Is there any other comments? All right.
- There was a second, yeah. All those in favor? Aye.
- All right, all those opposed? All right, any other changes to today's agenda? I would also add another
- section for a presentation of fiscal information, which that would happen directly after the discussion
- of the jail project. Second. Okay, any questions? Tell me the name of that new line again.
- That would be right after item number four, so the new number five. And that would be a discussion on
- justice center funding. Thank you. All right. Any more conversation? All those in favor, please say aye.
- Aye. All those opposed? The ayes have it. All right. We are going to move on to the new number three now,
- which is council comments.
- Council members, who would like, oh, we have Jennifer Crossley in the room, which means I get to stop talking.
- Oh, all right, I got it. All right, we are on council comments. So we had moved that up to the new number
- three. So council members, do you have anything to say to kick off today's exciting conversation about
- the Justice Center?
- I think Madam President is taking over the meeting now. Thank you. Thank you everybody for being here.
- Thanks for amending the agenda. I'd like to start with just a little bit of time at the front end for
- us to take stock of where we are at this meeting after it's been about six months since we've had a
- conversation publicly about this project.
- get council feedback about the ramifications of Senate Bill 1 and its adoption as SCA 1 and what that's
- meant for the county. We started off this project, of course, with the previous council and some decisions
- leading up to the election in 2024. Elections happen.
- legislation changes, and we're facing a very different fiscal environment. And I think before we really
- get into the marrow of the presentation today, I would be interested in fellow councilors' comments
- about the impact of that bill on how we're approaching our conversation today. But it's, I think,
- a reasonable place to start. And I apologize for my tardiness, but does anybody else have any comments?
- Councilor Decker?
- I didn't come prepared to offer these comments, but I will just say that anyone watching our budget
- sessions can already see the impact of what's happening. I hope that folks in Indianapolis are watching
- this closely because I can't get through a day without one of our local government units that are not
- necessarily county contacting me and saying,
- Let me paraphrase. I feel like the state has slit our throat and wants us to go walking around providing
- services. Yeah, that's what happened. Now, here's the deal. As I look at an audience that includes public
- servants, it includes court reporters, it includes administrators, it includes jailers, it includes
- Law enforcement personnel includes a lot of people, right? I'm not getting them all. They still have
- to go about doing their job. And so I remain committed that we in local government do everything we
- absolutely can to keep operations going because sometime tonight at 10 o'clock someone will call for
- an ambulance and they won't want to hear
- Well, SEA, one, two, three, or senator, or minority leader, majority, whatever, they don't care about
- any of that. They want their service. And so on this project, I think we've had an eventful week where
- we see a lot more of that need in that building. And so that's kind of where I fall. And I am probably
- eternally optimistic and probably fall asleep for that. But my dad taught me you got to do the work
- that you have, then you rest.
- Ironically, I never seem to get to the rest. We don't have time for our rest, and I think that we need
- all the help we can get. Thank you. Anybody else want to make comment before we proceed? I want to before
- we're through. Go ahead, go down the aisle. All right, so Council Hawk, and then I'll go, and then we
- got to move on.
- Right, I for one am grateful that the state listened to the people of this great county and the state
- and said, look, we hear you. We think that there are some need to make sure that we change the way taxes
- are going to be collected and opposed, whether it's going to be in property tax or income tax. And therefore
- was the reason for the change
- in how much we could use for a debt because they said we could only use 25 percent of the fund for this
- income fund for the total for debt and now that could change when we get into 2028 because this council
- will be more in control of the entire income tax money coming into the county
- but right now we are tied at 25%. Some people are saying that sounds like plenty. And when we started out,
- remember the first numbers we got, I think it said like 70 million and then we thought that was a lot
- and it was like, well, no, it's gonna be another 70 million to co-locate. And now we've gone from 70
- plus 70 now up to, I mean, who knows where we are now because it keeps changing with us. However,
- We did ask for information from our attorney as to how much that 25% would allow us to bond and would
- he be allowed to present that so that would be a part of my presentation for the public to see and hear.
- So from my understanding that is what council just amended to add to the agenda before
- I walked in, so it sounds like that is going to happen. Right. And I want to say further that this is
- not my first rodeo. We tried to do a jail, the county did, out on the Thompson property. And everybody,
- the courts, the sheriff, everybody was, yay, we're doing it. And it fell apart because people just kept
- adding on to the cost, adding on to what their wish list was until the price was out of control.
- And at the same time, we had businesses downtown saying, do not move out of downtown. So that's where we are.
- Just for those people who weren't around for all of that discussion, that's where we are now.
- And so now they're saying, oh, let's take this
- whole problem over toward Ellsville. I've already said that's not where Ellsville and my district want
- it and so I won't be supporting this simply because of the location but if we change the location my
- vote might change. Councilor Everson. Thank you I'm much more interested in hearing DLZ speak today
- so I'm going to be very very brief.
- Number one, I don't think we can let today go by without acknowledging that the mold crisis in the existing
- justice complex has heightened the urgency for us to do something. We know that the Sheriff's Office
- took appropriate measures to keep the inmates safe. And we know that our other colleagues in the Justice
- Building have been in a lot of conversations
- with us about the health effects of working in that building. That plays directly in today's conversation
- in the different talks that we've been having. The second thing that we need to talk about is substance
- use disorder treatment and mental health treatment. We need to keep that the forefront of these
- conversations. I'm not gonna belabor that because I could feel like I could give a multi-hour lecture on this.
- And then the last thing that I wanna talk about is
- that Council Member Hawke is absolutely correct. These projects are known for just growing and growing
- and ballooning and ballooning. We need to keep our eyes on operational costs. I talked about this before,
- in particular staffing. If we're going to build a bigger building, we're going to have to have more
- people working in there and we need to keep our eyes on that as the fiscal body. Thank you Madam President.
- And the only thing I'll add to that too is the fact that I'm annoyed at the fact that we're sitting
- here in 2025 talking about something that was brought forth to the county as a whole nearly 18 years ago.
- I'm annoyed that previous folks that were in positions allowed this to continue to go further and allow
- these prices to continue to go up because nothing has changed except for the prices. However,
- Given the annoyance that I have with this, we got to do something. And as Councilor Iverson said,
- and as we learned last week from listening to those that work in the justice building, we need to have
- a plan and we have to have some. Because we are one catastrophic move from us having to deal with this
- in an immediate instance. We've already seen, as Councilor Iverson suggests, or talked about the sheriff
- and his staff,
- making moves and changing things around day in and day out we all do not have to be in that building
- but folks that are in the back have to be in that building and we have to come up with the plan and
- we need to do so and we need to stop talking about it and we need to do it. That being said we also
- need to make sure that we're doing things within our means.
- we point blank period. That's the tweet, that's the post, that's all of it. So that's what I wanna say
- with that. It's annoying that we are sitting here still talking about things. I've been on council now
- for four years and I feel like I've been in the same spot that we've been in since I stepped in on the
- scene since December of 2021. So although this is not my first rodeo either, I want this to be my last
- so we can stop talking about it and get to doing things. And so we can move forward.
- So that being said, next up we'll go to the recap from DOZ and WGS. So I'd like to invite those folks
- to come to the microphone and go forward. Good morning. Morning. I can still technically say that.
- I have about 15 minutes.
- So if I fail to mention this towards the end of the meeting, I hope everybody has a very nice three-day
- holiday weekend coming up. I know I'm looking forward to it. So before you, you will see two different
- documents. The one that looks like this, a NAFTA 11, this is our full schematic design report.
- This is not this 100 and some odd page document. This is not what I'm presenting today. This is a summary
- of the schematic design report.
- So starting off, Council Member Henry, I think it was you that mentioned like six months ago was kind
- of when we had our last meeting in a similar format. So back in February, we presented the pre-design
- phase where we went through the site layout and floor plans, budgets, timelines, those types of things.
- A lot of the information that you're going to see here today, it's the same content.
- but you'll see much more detail and refinement. And that's just the natural progression of the design process.
- So as a good segue then, if you turn the page and you look at this, this isn't just an explanation of
- kind of how a project moves through from conception all the way through to completion. So we've had
- our kickoff meeting.
- And as I just mentioned, back in February, we completed our pre-design phase. That formally put us into
- the schematic design phase, which is the first of the three primary design phases of a project.
- So we're here today to present the schematic design package. After that will come design development.
- And then the final design phase is the construction document phase. Each design phase builds upon the other.
- And the final construction document phase, think of it like blueprints. That's where you see, you know,
- the hard dimensions and details, and that's what contractors will ultimately bid from, which is a segue
- to the next box, which is the bidding and award phase. And that's really where the DLZ Wedelgarmong
- Smoot team, we kind of switch seats and Wedelgarmong Smoot will then kind of move into the driver's
- seat and DLZ will support them.
- similarly for the construction administration phase, and then transition and occupancy. One thing I
- want to point out is down here at the bottom, you'll see stakeholder outreach. So there have been multiple,
- multiple meetings with the individual stakeholders, the department heads, their representatives,
- the transition team, in developing what we're presenting here today. I can't
- give this presentation without giving them multiple thanks. They're always very accommodating and very
- understanding. And some of the conversations we've had, especially when we run some preliminary budget
- numbers and we realize we need to cut some scope to cut the cost, they're understanding that those are
- tough conversations to have, but we've had those conversations and they've participated throughout the
- whole process. So if you turn the page,
- Then just an image over here of the actual schematic design report. And I've highlighted the information
- that's in this report. Now, the information that's contained here, this was the information that was
- provided to Weligar Mong Smut back, I think, end of July, beginning of August, that they began their
- cost estimating process. But the items that are highlighted with the double asterisks, those are the items
- that you're gonna see in more detail in this presentation. So first is the executive summary.
- So in this executive summary, you will see what we refer to as base bid, and you'll see some items,
- and I'll explain this, that we refer to as alternate bid. For the base bid scope of work,
- the total gross square footage is approximately 237,161 gross square feet. Now this is for the sheriff's
- office in jail and the justice center. And then underneath of that, you'll see an alternate gross square
- footage summary. And what that is is we have four day rooms in particular that we're proposing just
- to shell out as part of the base bid, similar to what some of you have seen at Hamilton County.
- You can always come in on bid day if bids are received favorably, and then you can elect to finish out
- those additional day rooms for the additional beds, or you can do it at any time in the future,
- and we'll design it such that you can get modular cells in those day rooms to do that if that's the case.
- But the rated bed summary for the general population is a total of 296 beds. Of that 296 beds,
- There's a total of 48 that are dedicated within the general population housing area dedicated to mental
- health. And that's really more of a step down unit. And I'll explain that and compare and contrast that
- in just a moment. Underneath of that, you see the medical and mental health. And you can see the breakdown
- between the male and female. Now this is more of our acute medical mental health area. And there's a
- total of 60 beds. So those are in addition to the 48 step down unit
- as far as in the general population. In holding, which is our, we call it the intake area, there's a
- total of 20 rated beds. And inmate workers, the dormitory setting for both male and female adds an additional
- 28 beds. If you add those numbers together, there's 404 beds in the base bed. Then below that,
- this is the alternate bed that I was referring to where we would, you know, shell the space,
- similar to Hamilton County,
- we've done this on multiple projects as well where four additional day rooms could be built out either
- on bid day if bids are received favorably or at any point in the future that adds a total of 96 additional
- beds for the 500 rated bed facility. Also just want to make sure I think this is understood but just
- to make sure
- The base bid includes the sheriff's office and jail, the 404 rated beds, the justice center,
- which is comprised of the courts, probation, community corrections, clerk, prosecutor, which includes
- child support and criminal, public defender, and then of course, court security. And then I've already
- mentioned the ultimate bid items. So next,
- is a site layout plan. Now, I'm going to take a break here for just a moment and kind of refresh everybody
- from our February meeting where we presented the pre-design phase. If you were to compare and contrast
- the site layout plan and kind of the building concept, if you recall, the pre-design phase,
- it kind of included kind of a bent, kind of a boomerang-shaped configuration. And when we had
- that presentation, there were comments
- and some concern regarding elevators and if you recall somebody behind my back I don't know who it was
- but in February commented and said elevators from hell and I know the history of the elevators in the
- Justice Center. There was also some concern regarding a tunnel and transporting inmates from the jail
- over to the courts area. So after that February meeting
- I went home and started thinking and several of us did and we went back into the office and we pulled
- two or three people that had had no prior experience with this Monroe County project just to get a fresh
- perspective. So from that we generated three what we kind of coined as just taking another look. So
- we had three alternative kind of concepts that we then presented to the commissioners
- Also, each of the department heads just kind of reimagined how this building might be put together.
- From that meeting, there was a clear winner between those three. So that is the scheme that we further
- developed, which is what you're going to see here today. So from February, in listening to some of the
- comments from that meeting, we took a step back, reimagined how the building might come together to
- address those comments and concerns to what you're gonna see here today.
- So with me today is Nick Francesconi. He's our site LA civil guy. He's responsible for a lot of the
- site graphics. So I'm gonna let him talk about that here in just a moment. But first of all,
- in the bottom right hand or bottom left hand corner, this is just an aerial view of the site, the North
- Park site. North is facing up and you can see it's sort of at the intersection of I-69 and State Road 46.
- Thanks, Scott, for the introduction. Thank you for the opportunity to present this to you today.
- I guess we'll just start here at the main entrance where we'll have a new public road as part of the
- overall project development that will give us access immediately down into our visitor parking area.
- One thing I should note is at that new public road, we'll have monument sign there to identify the site,
- probably the sheriff, other information about the building.
- We'll probably likely have another monument sign at the intersection of 46 and Hunter Valley Road. Sorry,
- it's more of a wayfinding piece. Do I have to scoot it to me? Okay, perfect.
- Almost immediately after turning onto that public road, you'll have the opportunity to turn down onto
- one of the two access points into the visitor parking lot. If you proceed further south on that public road,
- you'll have another opportunity to access that public parking lot, visitor parking specifically.
- It's more of a loop drive, and that gives you the opportunity to include a bus stop down there,
- which will serve primarily inmate release.
- And then if you move further along towards the front of the building, there's the opportunity there
- for drop off and loading for visitors to the site. The visitor parking lot is approximately 180 parking
- spaces with the opportunity for additional future parking if needed. The entry plaza, sort of a monumental
- plaza there in the front of the building will have security bollards,
- flag poles, some different paving material to identify that main entrance and different seating opportunities
- there. A second point of entry into the site will be directly off of Hunter Valley Road, providing access
- to the justice staff parking. That will be a secured access point of entry with barrier arms for only
- personnel to enter that.
- drive. That justice parking has 260 parking spaces, 60 of those will be secured in fencing.
- Another aspect of that secured parking is this opaque precast concrete wall that will screen that parking
- area from Hunter Valley Road. If you continue moving along that
- back access drive, there's opportunity there for service utility area, and then maintenance parking.
- I think there's 10 spaces there for maintenance staff. Around the back of the building, if you continue
- along that access drive, will allow the access to the justice center, I'm sorry, to the sheriff's office
- and to the jail, also providing access to the Sally port.
- We go back a slide, please. Thank you. There are 200 spaces in that secured Sheriff's Office and jail
- parking lot. I think about 10 to 12 of those will be designated for impound vehicles. Or equipment. As a bus.
- continues through the Sallyport. They'll have the opportunity to exit directly back onto that main public
- road there and exit. The site. Just the South Sallyport shuttle in May shuttle. Yeah, so through that
- Sheriff's Office Park Angel 99% of the time it's going to be patrol cars, you know going in know with
- the arresting officer and they.
- at Reste. We always size our vehicle Sally ports in the event that you have to do an evacuation or say
- you have a DOC bus or something like that coming in. We size our vehicle Sally ports to accommodate
- a bus in length. One other important aspect of the site is that there's probably about 50 feet of fall
- from west to east. And so as you'll see on the site plan, there are some retaining walls we're thinking
- we'll try to use to reduce costs, just in situ limestone walls, kind of create a flat area for the building
- and all the site amenities. We have storm basins identified in a few locations around the site.
- If there's anything else. Yeah. So just a couple other things to point out is this area back here that's
- currently labeled as evacuation yard. That's also our future expansion. Hopefully not in my lifetime.
- If you ever had to add on and add beds to this facility, we are preserving that area for a future addition.
- Also as part of the February 27th pre-design presentation, one of the comments that we heard, and Kate,
- I'm looking at you, and we also heard from some of the public is revolved around outdoor rec.
- So what we have done in consultation with the transition team within the evacuation yard, there is the
- opportunity for an outdoor rec area operationally if the sheriff's office decides to utilize that.
- But there is that opportunity there, and we have made those provisions. The second thing I wanted to
- point out briefly is, if you recall from February, and I think I mentioned it before, when I was talking
- about the alternate bid items, one of the alternate bid items is an inmate release resource center.
- And some of you that have been to Franklin County and over in Columbus, Ohio, you saw what we're envisioning.
- As an alternate bid, that's where it would potentially be located.
- And the reason that we're locating it right there will make more sense to you when I talk about the
- floor plan layout, because this is where inmates would be released out the front of the building in
- close proximity to a bus pickup drop-off area right here in the front of the building. The questions
- regarding site. Council Haug, can you please move your microphone to you?
- I know I read that there was detention as well as runoff from the from the building and the parking
- lot and also using some of the what's already on the site for some of the drainage to go to. Does that
- show where does that show? Yes so right up here on kind of the north end of the site we've allocated
- some space here for some on-site storm detention.
- Also in this area right here, it's labeled. You'll see that in the kind of the southeast quadrant of
- the site as well. All right. TSD, if you would advance the slide. So this is the overall first floor plan.
- So what you see here is both the sheriff's office and jail and the justice center. Now, one thing I
- want to point out, you'll see the area that has the dashed red line around that. That's what we refer
- to as the secure perimeter. We've been asked by the sheriff's office transition team to obscure the
- layout and configuration of what this really looks like for security reasons.
- But I can assure you that the transition team has been intimately involved in the layout and configuration
- of these spaces within the secure perimeter. So I just wanted to point that out. Regarding the general
- overview and the layout of this facility, so to give you some sense of orientation, you'll see a north
- arrow right down here. So in reality, this building is turned a little bit
- at about a 45 degree angle on the site. So north is that direction, right? We, however, we don't rotate
- our drawings on a drawing sheet. So we refer to as plan north, plan south, plan east, plan west.
- So this is our front elevation is our plan north elevation. But from the north, you see that we have
- a common entry point where all of the public will enter the facility. There'll be security right here.
- Right off of that area, we have a shared conference room just north of the Sheriff's Office Administration,
- which is identified here in this blue color. Just below that, we have the Jail Administration,
- which is a little darker blue area. Now, there is direct access from the Sheriff's and Jail Office admin
- areas into the secure perimeter of the jail, which is
- defined by this red line right here. The purple is our intake area. So this is kind of the first stop
- for the arresting officer and the arrestee. So this is our vehicle Sallyport that Nick spoke about before.
- So this is where patrol cars will pull in, will go into the intake booking and do their processing area.
- The pink area here is what you heard me talk about the medical mental health area of the facility and
- again it's intentionally placed
- immediately adjacent to the intake area. This light blue right here, this is our visitation,
- whether it be contact or non-contact visitation. So in many instances, for the non-contact or the contact,
- the public can enter off this public corridor right here, load from one side, and then inmates can load
- from the secure side, from the opposite side. We have our master control.
- We intentionally placed it right here at the intersection of these corridors for observation,
- since that's a 24-7 man post. Moving on then, we have our laundry right over here in kind of this orangey
- color. This green area, those are our inmate workers, both male and female. I don't mean to interrupt you,
- but on that master control for a second, I was going to ask, that individual or that unit,
- there, I shouldn't say individual, that they can see the breadth of the building in all ways. Is that right?
- They can definitely see all the way down this long public corridor. And then we have security, obviously,
- right here at our main public entry. We also have an information desk that will be staffed by court
- administration right here. So as public comes in, if they're trying to see, you know, they want to know
- what courtroom they need to go to, that's
- why we put that right here. And master control is not going to be going, oh, you want room 12. Correct. Yes.
- So somebody walking in will have court dockets, monitors right there, likely identifying Carnegie versus
- whoever, courtroom three, for example. And then you just go down the public corridor. This lighter shade
- of orange is our kitchen area.
- again it's in very close proximity to the loading dock area that Nick pointed out in this little haunch
- of the building. This green light green area this is what we refer to as our general population housing
- area and you can see the date rooms that are listed these over here in blue these are the alternate
- one that's where we pick up 48 additional beds then over here
- For these three that are identified here, that's where you would pick up alternate two with ads and
- additional 48 beds by build out. Yes, Kate. Originally on the previous slide, you had potential expansion
- areas, but that's different than what you're talking about with the alternate bid areas. That's a very
- excellent point, Kate.
- And that's why partly why I say hopefully not in my lifetime. Would we ever have to add on to this?
- That future expansion is in addition to the build out of these additional beds. These alternate bids
- right here. You add those additional beds gets us to the 500. Got it. Makes sense. OK, so those are
- those are just I don't know the right wording, but
- You'll have it structured in, not built out completely. Correct. And that other stuff that tacks onto
- the outside of the building is way down the road. And we're not thinking about it, but at least there's land.
- Yes, absolutely. Thank you. Very, very good summary. Yes, Marty. So is a sage green or whatever that
- part of the site.
- if you didn't see all those first alternate bid outs, is it still going to be there and it will be the
- first floor and then will the alternate bid be some on top or is that the whole thing that's in Sage
- Green not going to be built right now? Everything that's not in these little identified areas,
- all of this will be built out. That's base bid. These areas will be, these two boxes down here in particular
- will be shelled out.
- This is where there's two additional day rooms here and two additional day rooms here. I get 48 additional
- beds here, and I get 48 additional beds here. We're going to shell the space, meaning floors, walls, and roof,
- so that on bid day, if bids come in under budget, and you all as the elected officials choose to award
- either that alternate to where you get the 404 plus 48 beds,
- or you can add the other alternate to get to the 500, but there will be shelled space where you can add those,
- finish them out. Part of the original plan back? Yes. Four years ago, whenever we started. Yeah. Okay, thanks.
- All right. So the other area that I have not yet touched on that's within a secure perimeter is this
- brown area. That is inmate holding. So it's kind of the on deck circle for inmates during court proceedings.
- there is secure holding right off of this back corridor that lead to the back of the courts.
- So that comprises everything within a secure perimeter, the sheriff's office and jail. Moving on to
- kind of the east end of the building is our justice center. So in this light area right here,
- this is the clerk's office. This is probation and community corrections. Right here is the public defender.
- We have prosecutor criminal, prosecutor child support. So they're all off of this main public corridor,
- which we really like for supervision and security purposes. We don't like corners where people can hide
- behind and that kind of thing. And also why we wanted the master control, which is a 24-7 post right there.
- On the other side of the corridor, we have our courtrooms. So again, the public will always enter either
- Any reason they're here for the facility will be in this main corridor. So we have our courtrooms located
- right here. We have a shared large conference rooms right here that's shared between everybody in the
- facility. And then when you get down into these gray areas down here, it's more of our mechanical,
- electrical, plumbing, IT. Those are the spaces we need to make the facility work.
- And then in this little brown area right here, these are jury rooms. So we have two jury rooms,
- small kitchenette, both of them equipped with their own toilet facilities. But it's, again, off of this
- back corridor that the public will not have access to. So you notice these kind of brighter green boxes
- right here. Those brighter green boxes represent vertical circulation, meaning stairs. Sorry,
- I know I'm going to cuss here when I say an elevator.
- We have one elevator. There will not be inmates. And there's no food delivery up to the fifth floor
- like you currently have in your justice center. These stairs and elevators go up to the second floor.
- And if you turn the page, you'll see those same green boxes over on the same right side of the page.
- Those go up and access a second floor.
- Our second floor is isolation for the judges. So we have our judges chamber and court administration
- up on the second floor. So for security purposes, judges, judges chambers, court administration,
- they're isolated to the second floor. Make sense? The reason that we show
- A second floor in the general population area is because keep in mind these day rooms, there are two-story
- space volumes and there's a perimeter mezzanine because of the cells around the perimeter. So technically
- there is a second floor, but it's the mezzanine and upper level cells in the two-story day room. Open air.
- Yes. Okay. Yes. And that's just the way that we designed modern, everybody designs modern jails pretty
- much anymore.
- If you turn the page, this is what we refer to as building elevations. So this is a flat, two-dimensional
- drawing of what the building is beginning to shape up and look like. And this is where I refer to as
- Plan North, Plan South, in reality, because it's kind of turned. The front of the building is really
- facing northwest. But you can see there's a legend down here in the bottom right-hand corner that identifies
- the proposed materials.
- I'm not going to go into and explain all of the building materials and every application where we're
- going to use them, because the renderings that you're going to see here in a moment, I think,
- really speaks volumes. But generally speaking, the exterior materials are three primary elements.
- They are insulated precast panels with a combination of either acid etched or exposed aggregate.
- And then we also have five inch precast concrete veneer and that predominantly the veneers along the
- front of the building because we'll stick build that with and not be an insulated panel. The third primary
- element that you're going to see in the building elevations are a composite metal panel and you'll see that
- in the elevations here in a moment. That's where we really want to just pull out a design feature,
- give it a little pop and try to break up some of the horizontal. The building's a big building.
- So we want to kind of decrease the appearance that it's very long and linear. So you'll see a couple
- of little design elements where we've incorporated some metal panels. The metal panels are also utilized
- at our entrances, canopies, that type of thing. We'll have a canopy over a door.
- Again, turning the page, now you're kind of seeing the ends of the building, that being the east and the west.
- And the building materials are the same all the way around the building, just a combination of those
- three primary elements. Now we get into what I kind of refer to as the fun drawings, because I think
- that they just really kind of begin to bring the project to life. So this is the site layout plan,
- but it's actually rendered now.
- So you can kind of begin to see a little more, I think, with some definity what some of these elements are.
- So Nick, you want to kind of walk through, just kind of highlight some of those items? Yeah,
- I think this 3D rendering helps see some of the retaining walls on the north and then along the southwest,
- the proposed public road.
- Along the east side of the building were backed up against the floodplain and so trying to balance the
- site there's some cut and fill and so that that east side of the site will will receive a retaining wall.
- To kind of fill the site in that area. This starts to show planting the trees and kind of the buffer
- yard areas for screening the site is required by ordinance.
- You can see in the front entry plaza that covered walkway for the loading and drop off zone.
- On the next image, it starts to help you see in three dimension what the front of the building will look like,
- how cars might circulate that. And just as a point of reference, this is Hunter Valley Road.
- Right here. So the new roadway that Nick spoke about before, it's really down here just out of camera view.
- But this is the loop drive that Nick was talking about that comes around. That's the loop drive all
- the way around. And you can see we're planning for a bus drop off here. This is where the inmate release
- resource center would be located in close proximity to the inmate release to the front of the building.
- Ask a quick question. Yes. In the drawings that we have projected up on the screen, we see some of the
- roof structures a little recessed. Forgive me for asking, but we've had a lot of water issues lately.
- So can you explain a little bit about how, in that section, water won't be dripping down onto the desks
- of our justice staff? OK, so excellent point. So what you see here in this rendering is
- people sometimes refer to those as flat roofs. I don't like flat roofs. Well, there's no such thing
- as a flat roof. It's what we refer to as a low slope roof, but it is a single ply membrane, very likely
- a TPO roof. And we need to have these details, you know, as far as the actual materials with the owner,
- the commissioners and maintenance staff as well. But you also see several skylights. Now these are
- quality commercial skylights. And to be honest with you, in probably the 30-some year of my career of
- designing jails where we provide these skylights, I don't know that I've ever had a callback because
- of a leak. And I'm just 100% honest. Now, the reason that we have skylights is because by DOC, Department
- of Corrections standard, jail standards, we have to provide a certain level of natural light
- into areas where inmates are confined. So day rooms, holdings, those types of things. So that's why
- you see the rooftop just peppered with skylights. Now, to your point, you see this raised area right here?
- This is where we're providing clear story lighting. So clear story lighting is tall. It's up and it's
- horizontal typically.
- That's where we're providing some natural light into the courtrooms. Because if you noticed on the floor
- plans, the courtrooms don't back up to an exterior wall, which is good and bad. But that's how we're
- popping that roof up to provide natural light into the courtrooms. The other thing I want to point out
- is you see these areas right here, these are mechanical rooftop screens. Because as part of our value
- engineering exercise, you heard me talk about some of our conversations weren't
- very pleasant. When we had to start thinking about how we're going to save cost, reduce scope,
- reduce square footage, one of the items that we came up with was to instead of building isolated rooms
- to house some of the mechanical equipment, they're going up on the roof, which is fine. That's done very,
- very frequently. However, regarding the PUD, we do have to screen it.
- So as you heard Nick talk about the grade elevation from the upper level up here from Hunter Valley Road,
- which is the high point of the site, you can't look down and see mechanical rooftop equipment. So that's
- why you see the rooftop screens. Did I answer your question, Peter?
- I think so. There's a lot of people behind you right now that have been having some water issues in
- their offices. So maybe we'll hear about that in public comment. But I do want to give some reassurance
- that as we're thinking about a design, we're taking that into account as well. So keeping that thought,
- do you know what the slope is, the grade? Of the site? Of the roof. The roof? Well, I'm going to turn
- around for a little backup. Is it quarter inch per foot?
- Quarter inch per foot is the typical slope. Yeah, it's dictated to us by the code. That's the minimum.
- You can go taller, but that increased cost because then either you're sloping your roof structure or
- you're building up tapered insulation, which means all your parapet around the building gets taller.
- We typically do quarter inch per foot. All right.
- Again, now turning the page, you'll see a project rendering. Now we're just kind of zooming in a little bit.
- So now we're still in a helicopter. I'm not at grade. But this just gives you some idea on a perspective.
- So this is a dome concept right here with, again, clear story lighting around the perimeter.
- So this is our main entry right here. And you can see this area over here in the purple on the floor plan,
- this is the conference room.
- that's immediately off of the main front lobby area. Over here you see the sheriff's administration
- area and as you start to come down this side of the building, this is the clerks area, then you start
- moving into the probation community corrections. You heard me talk about the use of some metal panels
- and we typically try to do some kind of a vertical design feature to break up the
- long horizontality of a building facade. That's, for example, where we would begin to incorporate a
- composite metal panel. Scott, I have a quick question. So you said over here to the right is the conference
- room? Yep. Should that be as visible? I guess, is there no security concern for that area to be open
- like that?
- That conference room is really conceived originally to where it could be used by somebody from the public,
- like a public agency. If they need, the sheriff's office wants to host training for other jail commanders
- across the state and that kind of thing. You can't access that conference. There is another door back here.
- It's an emergency egress directly to the outside, but it's only for emergency egress.
- you would have to go through security through the main entry lobby to gain access to that conference room.
- I guess I'm just thinking like there's windows and things that are here where people that are walking
- up to the building can see in and that would be I would say maybe a little bit of a safety concern.
- Yeah and that's a good point we can have that conversation with the with the user group there's different
- ways that we can approach that we can apply some films and
- you know, laminate some things within the glass to obscure the vision as well. Marty. Can you help me? Marty,
- turn your mic around please. Thank you. Let's say if we're at the stoplight that's there now, would
- you be looking at the front
- of that building, or would it be at the side? I'm just trying to think, if you're driving along,
- are we going to see that big, beautiful building, or are we going to see the backside of it? No,
- you're going to see the front. Now, when I say you're going to see the front, and that's why we intentionally
- rotated the building at a 45 degree on the site, is so that when you're at that stoplight, State Road
- 46 and Hunter Valley Road, and you make that turn, and you're kind of coming up that slight, to me,
- it's a little,
- It doesn't really look like there's a grade going up, but there is a little bit of a grade going up.
- Once you reach the high point there, then you're going to look over to your right or be able to turn
- right into that new access road. And that's going to be the front of the building. And it's looking
- straight at you. And that's why we rotated it 45 for that approach.
- So now in the rendering, we've kind of dropped down to more of an eye level as opposed to kind of hovering
- in a helicopter. But this is the main public drop-off entry area. You can begin to see this canopy right here.
- One of the things we've talked about, if you go down to City Hall, you're going to see it. So I can't
- claim this as an original idea, but we've talked about incorporating some photometric panels there for
- the canopy.
- photometric panels for the canopy right here. And I just commented, if you go down to City Hall and
- you look at their covered parking, I can't claim that as an original idea, but something that we've
- talked about internally that we could possibly incorporate here. That's not currently budgeted? Yes. Yes,
- it is currently budgeted? For this right here. Okay. And that would be powering? Going to a power bank
- and our electrical engineers will
- talk to the building user groups and determine how to distribute from there. But it would be all used on site.
- Yes, I would anticipate that, yeah. Again, we're not hovering in a helicopter. This is kind of what
- you would expect to see if you were walking up and approaching the main entry. So of course,
- it'd be a crosswalk. You heard Nick speak previously regarding, we call them crash bollards,
- but you can see crash bollards.
- here in that entry plaza area to prevent somebody from a vehicle ramming the front door. Those aren't
- your typical bollards that most of you are accustomed to saying. These are deep, but have footings and
- foundations. Now we're just kind of beginning to, yes, Marty. Marty, your microphone. I'm not seeing
- handrails there, but then
- Maybe it's going to be there. Remember that may look like it's really easy for the average person,
- but for someone who has visual problems or someone with balance problems, there's going to need some
- handrails there. What are the handrails for? There aren't any stairs. There's no stairs. That's striping.
- That's striping across asphalt. It's not stairs. No, it's just a crosswalk painted at paint on asphalt.
- There looks like stairs. The image on the next rendering on the next page is a little more helpful just
- to show it's just a standard crosswalk striping. So yeah, Marty, those are the painted on the asphalt.
- So again, we're beginning to kind of spin around the building now. So you can see the crash ballers.
- Nick spoke about the paving out front in this entry plaza area being something a little more decorative.
- You can see the dome. You can see the building off in the distance. So you can see, now you can begin
- to see the two-story down here at this end of the building. This is the judges chambers and
- court administration up on the second floor. Everything else is at grade. Depending on around the building.
- So this is where the inmate release resource center as an alternate bid would be because this is the
- inmate release.
- Right here's our bus stop. And this area right here is likely going to be signed, you know, law enforcement
- vehicles only beyond this point because the public, this is the loop drive that comes around, right?
- We don't necessarily want them going back here because there's nowhere to go. This is the secure sheriff's
- office and jail parking area. And there's our vehicle sally port so they can enter from either end of
- this parking lot.
- One component of that too is that opaque precast wall there that conceals the Sallyport and the sheriff's
- office and jail parking from the public side of the facility. That's a good point. And the reason that
- we did that here, and you'll see it when I spin around the building even more so, the PUD that was recently
- adopted, I think it's 150 feet to the center line of a road. You can't have fencing.
- That's why we put that there to comply with the PUD. I just got one more quick question for the entrance
- part of the building. The bollards that are there, the crash area that's there, is that wide enough
- for accessibility for wheelchairs? Oh yeah, absolutely. Yes. Okay. Yes. And I could show you photographs
- of where we've incorporated something very similar. So now if you turn the page,
- We're going to kind of spend continue spinning around the building. So now I'm overlooking the secure
- sheriff's office and jail parking area. There's that screen wall that we just talked about. Over here
- is the main entry. This is our vehicle sally port. And right here is staff entrance. Then we also are
- releasing inmates out the front near the alternate bed inmate release resource center. You can begin
- to see this is the
- raised roof area that I spoke about before as far as how we would get natural light into the courtrooms
- and this big block back here this is the general population housing area so the future addition hopefully
- not in my lifetime would occur back here that's the area we're preserving. One other thing I
- want to point out real quick, Marty, these two windows right here, those two windows, if you look on
- the floor plan and kind of try to match things up, these windows right here go into the mental health,
- both the male and female mental health day rooms. So we're really trying to flood that area with some
- natural light. Marty. Microphone. Will that be artificial turf or
- grass or what or plantings what as we get more detailed in design it'll start to show that it's probably
- mulch planting islands not not turd or turf natural turf not artificial yep thank you all right so if
- you turn the page we're continuing to spin around come to the back of the building
- I think this one kind of really helps you visualize what's going on at the back of the building.
- So this is the loop drive that Nick talked about that goes, if you follow it all the way to the end,
- that goes in to kind of the back of the sheriff's office jail secure parking. This is the access drive
- that goes into delivery area, loading dock, generators, chillers, that kind of thing sitting out here.
- This area right here, this is the justice parking area for justice staff.
- This is the secure justice parking area. So there'll be a gate there just like there will be at the
- other secure parking for the sheriff's office in jail. This is the other opaque wall that Nick spoke
- about previously. As far as providing that here, just provide some added protection because Hunter Valley
- Road is right here, right? What's the difference? Who parks in that little area that's secure versus
- outside of it?
- Well, this conversation was originally conceived where I think talking to the prosecutor's office and
- the judges, they were somewhat concerned regarding, you know, going out to an unprotected parking area.
- I know that there were some females in particular that had concern going out, you know, when it was dark out.
- So in further conversation with the judges,
- there was a strong consensus that there was a very strong preference for some secure parking area,
- at least for the judges, elected officials, prosecutor, public defender, those types of areas. The other
- thing we've talked about is since it's not conceivable to secure all of the justice parking area,
- if there is a staff member, whether male or female,
- knows that they're going to be working late. If they want to park in there, there would be some areas
- allocated for that purpose. They could go move their car, pull it in there so they're in close proximity
- to the staff entrance when they leave the building. Turning the page, now you begin to see just kind
- of a zoomed in area of the exact thing that we were talking about. This is the secure justice parking area.
- This is the sliding gate that I was referring to. There is a staff entrance right here in very close
- proximity to the stairs and elevator that goes up to the second floor for the judges chambers and court
- administration. There's also at the very end of that long public corridor that stretches down to this
- exterior wall. We have another staff entrance over here. So it's just a staff parking over here and
- they want to use that door, they can utilize that
- door as well. I'm continuing to spin around the building. Marty. Well, you know, we are in Bloomington,
- Indiana, where we sometimes have a lot of snow. So what's the drainage for one word to put the snow piles?
- Or is it assumed that they'll be hauled off? I mean, I'm sure you've already talked to people about this. So
- You can tell me about that later. Very good point. Well, I just want to make sure that we didn't end
- up with no way to get in and out of there because of all the snow. Yeah, good point, especially after
- last winter. All right, so we're continuing to spin around the building. And this is where you can really
- begin to see the upper level court, judges chamber, and court administration area. This is another area
- where we're incorporating a lot of composite metal panel.
- both as a design feature, but also to help reduce some of the costs so that we're not extending precast
- veneer up on the second floor. So now you can kind of begin to see, if you're looking down the length
- of the building, what that would look like. So what you're seeing here is a precast concrete veneer panel.
- More around the back of the building, where the inmates are being housed, where the maintenance areas are,
- that's where we would utilize the insulated precast concrete panel.
- And we're going to finish again at the front of our building where we started. So we've kind of spun
- all the way around the building, kind of showing you some views of what the building would look like.
- So if you look at this page again, if you look in this report, you will see what we refer to as discipline
- narrative. So all of the disciplines, site, civil, structural,
- architectural, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, fire protection. Everybody has a narrative in here
- that was also provided to the Weddegarmung Smoot in their packet when they prepared their cost estimate.
- If you're having trouble falling asleep tonight, I would encourage you to read that. So the page that
- I know everybody is eagerly awaiting, and I'm going to
- I'll turn it over to Chris Seeley with Welligar Monks. Thanks Scott. Yeah, I'm Chris Seeley.
- I'm with Welligar Brothers, part of the WGS team. What you'll see in front of you is the updated budget
- based on 237,161 square feet, 404 beds, also the shell space for the additional 96 beds as described,
- full Sheriff's Office and jail, full Justice Center.
- As of this design and what you've seen, total construction costs is $194,090,689, with an added soft
- cost of $30,409,429, bringing the total project cost to $224,500,118.
- Down below, you have the ad alternates. I want to highlight that it is an ad for the items that were
- highlighted in the day rooms and the inmate resource center. So both alternates, one and two,
- they're the same cost because of the same scope. So it's just mirror image of each other, just flipping
- the pods in which they're in. Both of those are $2,458,805. And then the inmate resource center
- $896,656. Those are your alternates to be considered. Chris, just for folks in the public and maybe
- some of us that might need a refresh, when we talk about the term soft costs, can you remind us what that,
- because it's an amount. Yeah, so the soft cost is
- cost for design, professional services, it's the furnishings in the building. There are, gosh,
- property purchase are also included in there. So anything that is an actual construction expense associated
- with the job. Also, just as a reminder,
- When we presented the pre-design phase in February, I believe the total project cost estimate was $237
- million. And if you recall, the commissioners made a motion with the caveat that we would proceed but
- continue to look for ways to reduce costs. So that was obviously a driving point from February to where
- we are here today. The last page is an updated timeline.
- I'm not going to go through everything here on the first page because it's all been completed.
- But if you look at the second page over here on the slide, you'll see February 27th, that's when we
- presented the pre-design phase. We forwarded the Schenic Design packet information that I referenced before,
- as well as a lot of additional drawings to Weldegarmung Smut from July 28th to August 1st, and that's
- what they used to prepare their cost estimate.
- And we're here today presenting schematic design to the county. And as I mentioned before, there are
- two other subsequent design phases, both design development and construction documents that will follow.
- And of course, we have to have approval from the county to commence the next design phase. You can see
- that we're still showing occupancy in June.
- to be completed by the end of 2020 29 being substantially complete. Here. Thank you. Back on the previous
- page, the project cost estimate page. It would be immensely helpful to have a itemized budget for those
- four bullet points at the top.
- cost per square foot. That's always helpful to have as well. I mean, I know that number changes all the time,
- but the difference between the budgeted costs for the justice center, different costs for the jail,
- it would be helpful to just see those broken out a little bit more. Might have to go into immense detail,
- but it would be helpful to have that. Yes, Councillor Feidl. Can I go back to the water?
- So having lived on some properties before where there have been water issues, I want to know where all
- the water from the roof is going. From the road, you said? The roof. Oh, the roof. So it kind of goes back to,
- I forget who, but somebody, I think it was Marty, maybe asked about the stormwater basins that we have
- built onto our site. So I'm not a civil guy, but I deal with this on every project. I rely
- on the professionals that
- do to do this every day. But we are required to hold the amount of stormwater on our own site.
- We can only discharge it at the same rate that is currently discharged. We can't increase. So we will
- size the detention pond areas to hold the water on our own site and discharge at its current rate so
- we're not affecting people downstream.
- The roof will have roof drains that drain connect into those detention basins. And then, as Scott said,
- that will release. And what might be the time frame on holding the water? I mean, are we talking mosquitoes?
- I mean, what could happen there in that water basin? So go ahead. Yeah, I mean, our civil engineers,
- as we get further in design, will have to look at rates of that. But I think there were some favorable
- comments to having some standing water. But I think on this side, it might
- release almost immediately or we could size the basin so that there's no standing water. But we have
- to really dive into those details in the next phase of the project. Thanks. Council Henry. Thank you
- Madam President. Thank you everybody for your presentation. It's admirable that the vendor takes in
- requirements, comes up with a wonderful design. I mean I can tell about the attention to detail here
- that has gone into this. So some of my comment isn't really directed at you because you took what was
- given to you and you built
- the drawing off of it, but I think the one schematic question I have for you all before we get into
- other conversations with other folks today is if this project had to be phased, where we had to select
- or prioritize what gets built first based on the budget constraints placed on us by the state of Indiana
- and of course our own decisions about whether or not to use our tax dollars in this way, is there a
- way to phase this project and prioritize certain aspects of it?
- and break it into sections, or design it in a manner where we build what we minimally need to meet ACLU
- requirements, safety requirements, and then revisit other options over a period of time. So if the project
- had to be phased, and I know it's a lot riding on the Senate Bill 1 state legislation, to me,
- and I'll let Garmong Smoot chime in if they feel differently from a cost perspective, or just a construction
- sequencing perspective,
- But to me, it seems that phase one would naturally be the sheriff's office in jail. I think that's also
- the highest priority for the community. With the secondary phase being the justice center, is that not
- if I answered your question? No, that helps. And these are a solution, not the solution. There are obviously
- ways to think about
- the other aspect of co-location here and what that cost really means to the county. I don't think that's
- the county council's job to explain to the public the cost of co-location. It's really the offices that
- feel that that's the better solution for taxpayer dollars. But that's not your problem. You were given
- requirements. You gave us a schematic. You answered my question about what could potentially be phased.
- Thank you. Thank you. That's a good point. Anybody else? Councilor Welch?
- This isn't, I have a couple of questions. But the first one is, you mentioned various windows and skylights
- and the natural light, which I think is fantastic. When someone is in the general population portion
- of the building, are there any, besides the skylights, are there any windows
- or any other natural sources of light coming in from the sides? Within the day rooms, no. And one of
- the primary reasons is because most modern jails, if any of you have toured any of ours or any of our
- competitors, most of them are built with what we refer to as a perimeter chase that all the plumbing
- backs up to and that way we can maintain without, do maintenance without having to go into the secure
- perimeter. So that really
- It can be done, but it's more costly to add exterior windows, because now you have essentially two walls.
- We're adding windows in, so it just doubles. So most modern jails, the natural light requirement is
- achieved by skylights. However, there is, and I know this was brought up and discussed when we presented
- in February, but rec areas that we refer to as indoor outdoor recreation areas.
- Where what that is, is there's an insulated overhead coiling door that can raise up. And then there's
- a security barrier there. It's just an open grating, but they can get natural light, natural ventilation,
- that type of thing. But it's up high. And that's really what precipitated the conversation back in February.
- And I think somebody made a comment. You mean I can't, or an inmate can't touch grass? And that's what
- has precipitated the outdoor wreck.
- Um, you know, in, in consultation with the transition team operationally, if they so choose to utilize
- the outdoor rec that we would provide, be providing an evacuation yard, we have made that provision.
- And would that outdoor rec involve what you're talking about with.
- sounds like a garage door thing. Yeah, not the outdoor. It's the indoor outdoor. So that's not incorporated
- in this plan, though, right? No, it is. Yes. It's within the secure perimeter, so it's obscured,
- so I can't point and show you. No worries then. Got it. Yes. Can I ask one more? And this might not
- be something that you feel comfortable estimating, but as you're going along,
- I'm thinking about the staffing levels for specifically the jail side of things and how this design
- change from our current, which obviously is inefficient already, but how will the staffing levels change?
- I'm honestly glad you brought that up. I know that this was a topic that was brought up in February,
- and I think it was Peter in particular that said, hey,
- in addition to our construction costs, which will eventually go away because the building will eventually
- be paid off. The cost will never go away as a staffing operation. And you heard Nick previously talk
- about our next design phase, which is our design development phase. Now that the building is beginning
- to take shape, our engineers are going to
- become much more involved in running heating, cooling, calculation loads and sizing equipment.
- And of course your mechanical equipment dictates your electricity needs and those types of things.
- So we will be running an operational analysis to give some sense as to how much gas, how much electricity,
- how much water is anticipated and compare and contrast that to what you're currently spending at the
- justice center. Now that's just one part of the component. Second part is staffing.
- So we will also now that these floor plan is beginning to settle down and take shape we're running what
- we refer to as a staffing analysis to where we can compare and contrast you know every post and compare
- and contrast that to your existing justice center. Thank you.
- Yeah. I see Councilor Hawke has pulled her microphone, so that means she has something to say. But before
- I go to Councilor Hawke, I'll go to Councilor Decker-Hawke. And then I apologize when this meeting was
- scheduled, I already had a previous thing at one o'clock. So I am going to be leaving here soon,
- but I will hand it over to Pro Tem Iverson to finish taking over. So thank you. Thank you, Madam President.
- Thank you very much. I kind of want to
- follow up to make sure I understand everything I need to understand here. And I appreciate immensely
- the presentation, seeing the schematics and kind of getting this in my head. I kind of want to follow
- up on Councilor Henry's question. And help me to make sure I understand it. If the jail sheriff option
- went in a phase by itself, the approximate cost of something like that were 60 to 80,
- million plus roughly. We haven't evaluated in that level yet, but it's probably upwards of that.
- And that's still going to exceed the bonding capability that we can do as a county anyway, because the
- states basically told us you can't do anything other than buy some bubble gum next Friday, and we're
- going to double check you on that. Mr. Cockerill, and I'm not going to put you guys on the spot for that,
- but Mr. Cockerill, I have that right, right? Yeah, I think, you know,
- and this is part five so if you want me to wait. Can we hold off to make sure other council members
- have questions? I'm not quite done yet. I guess the last part of this is if and I'm open to any idea
- that gets us to completion but phasing is still going to extend at a greater cost to my taxpayers
- construction. So essentially, if my daughter in fifth grade decides she'd like to run for my council
- seat one day, she hits age and seeks it, she'll be in here figuring out how to get the courts and public
- defender and prosecutor over there, only she'll be doing that at a much greater cost in amount than
- what we have now, even at our extended from 2009 timeline. Am I saying this right? Correct. If the project
- becomes more linear and
- time frame to do it is the cost is going to increase. And with some exception here or there, maybe,
- as we talk about it, I haven't seen anything yet that is not a public service entity doing its function. Now,
- there's some trimming that can always happen. But I'm trying to figure out where, because we had this
- set last year. We had a correction tax that was well debated. And then one thing I want to point out,
- voted on that, two members of the council went on the ballot who voted for that, and then they were
- returned by the electorate. So it's not like we've not had some public accountability on the process we had.
- It's just we have a state law that has changed, and now it will end up costing us a lot more time to
- do what we need to do. You all don't have to comment on that. I just, I'm trying. All right, I saw council
- member Hawke's hand next.
- it's just a small point while we're looking at additional staffing we have to recognize we have to have
- more staffing to maintain that large parking lot as well because you know that's that's a lot more than
- what we would do now so and security needs to be out there not just for
- people leaving courts, but just in general, a large parking lot, as we all know, can generate some nefarious
- activities. So I think you have to take that in consideration. Good point. Council Member Henry. Thank you,
- Mr. President. Yeah, I think we might be bleeding into Section 5 a little bit, but I think it's worth
- looking at the phasing a little longer. You all constructed the Morgan County Justice Center, correct?
- which is a standalone facility from their sheriff's and jail facility. And so they're not co-located.
- And so there is some transport and activities there. I think this gets to Councilor Iverson's question,
- which is we really do need to understand those other cost models of staffing and what the cost difference
- between transport versus the cost of co-location is. I appreciate Councilor Deckard's analogy,
- or at least walking through a version or a version of what costs could look like. Phase two doesn't
- necessarily have to be a new
- Justice Center could be working with our partnerships here in Bloomington to keep things downtown.
- We have plenty of vacant office space. The city bought Showers West that's sitting open and vacant.
- It could be considered as a possible location to keep things downtown and answer some questions that
- many in the community have brought about the removal of the legal community from downtown and moving
- at three miles north of town here. So I think we need to keep in perspective that there are other costs
- other than the phasing. All of our children, Peter's, myself, Jen's, transfer and be paying for this
- at this point, regardless of what we do. But I don't want to pontificate here too much to say that the
- phase one concept and seeing what that can meet our budget or what we can do locally, what is minimally
- required to be met by the ACLU and other stakeholders, not just the ones that work in that building,
- but the ones in the community that have grave concerns about whether or not our values are being met
- with this facility, are all back on the menu since SB1 and the election in November. A lot has changed
- since then. Thank you, Mr. President.
- All right, I think council, I'm hearing correctly. We want to move on to the next conversation,
- but you put a lot of work into this. It's very evident you put hours and hours and hours. You've listened
- to us and all of our griping. You've tried to meet us where we're at. So that that's appreciated.
- I want to give you guys the last word. Anything else you want to add at this point before we move on
- to a financial conversation? Only thing I want to add is you see us as the face up here making this
- presentation, but
- that were supported by a host of people back in the office that I kind of jokingly say do the real work
- so I just want to give them the recognition as well as the recognition of the office and department
- members the transition team and all the work that they've put into it as well. Excellent thank you so
- much and just as a reminder for folks watching at home all of the materials we've reviewed this morning
- are online on the county council's web or on the county's website so please look at this work. Thank you.
- I want to make a brief comment now, because I don't want it to bleed into the next topic, because I
- think it could. What you've seen between February and now with the difference in what it is, is fairly
- dramatic. It is a dramatic difference from those two. Now, prior to the conversation we're about to have,
- the expectation is there will still be some minor tweaks and changes as we move forward but it won't
- be that kind of a dramatic change. I mean we went from a two-floor facility to primarily a one-floor
- facility so I just kind of want to tell you yeah this is the best guess we have now. I expect there'll
- be some really minor changes. I know that there's some discussions going on about courtroom space and
- things like that but I think primarily we don't expect those to necessarily affect the budget a lot
- but just to kind of make you guys aware that, you know, this is a point where we're at today, you know,
- when we go to bid.
- it'll be a little bit different, but not the change we've seen in the last eight months. Good point.
- Thank you. All right. We're going to move on to the next item on our agenda, but keep in mind after
- this financial conversation is time for public comment. So get your public comment ready here in the
- NatU Hill Room. And also for those of you joining us on Teams, when the time comes, I'll ask you to
- raise your hand on Teams and we'll recognize you when that time comes.
- I think now we'll transition to a conversation about financing this justice center. And we will begin with Mr.
- Jeff Cockrell, who has worked, again, put in a lot of hours on this as well. So can you kind of lead
- us off with the numbers you prepared for this meeting?
- All right, and I will say I did not put a lot of hours into these changes because I just got the information
- this morning of what the new rates for next year is going to be. Oh, he's humble to. So it was kind of fast.
- And these numbers have not been reviewed by Financial Solutions Group or any of the other people I would
- normally have confirmed them before I make them at a public meeting. But this meeting was occurring,
- and I thought it would be important for you guys to have them. Essentially, in the documents trial,
- Justice Senator funding updates
- 8-29-2025. You should have already seen a piece of paper with the first column, the first column of
- numbers on it except that now it says 2025 lit rates. It was based upon our lit rates for this year
- and our bonding capacities and things like that and the next the next column is 2026 lit rates. I'm
- gonna be fully honest and
- these are all pre SB one thoughts and how we were looking at things. And so I just kind of want to set
- that as the baseline. You know, we just heard a $224 and a half million dollar project. You know,
- if we were continuing to go on the, what we had, we would have the capacity to do a $243 million dollar
- facility. Again, that's,
- not been audited by anybody that's me putting something on a piece of paper this morning but I but I've
- been traditionally I've been pretty close so I I'm not saying that that's way off um although that it
- has to be way off you know that no that's not because because then the next breaks it down with construction
- budget debt reserve cost of issuance and underwriting kind of what we've seen previously so we would
- be on pace if it weren't for senate bill one I guess is is is what I'm
- trying and hoping to convey I guess but at the last long-term finance committee we had our financial
- advisors advise us on you know kind of what SB 1 has done and it was different than what we had thought
- but what I thought before that meeting and so I thought it was important that you guys realize this
- they give three he has three different options and I emailed this out the other day hopefully you've
- had a chance to look at it or it was presented at that meeting I think on August 1st
- The first one I really don't like to talk about a whole lot because that is going through a referendum
- process and putting an additional property tax rate on to the property tax payers. Again, another reason
- I say I don't want to talk about that is because I can demonstrate that we have enough lit money coming
- in and that was always the scheme all along. It's an option. I guess the
- again pre-SB1 we had enough. The second is what we could bond for today with no legislative changes at all.
- The issues are it's only 25 percent of our current lit rate and discussing it with bond council we can
- only commit our lit up through 2027 before the kind of
- grand lit changes occur so that gives us a bonding capacity and his it was 19.3 million dollars.
- My adjustments is that's a little over 20 million dollars 20.3 million dollars based upon the increase
- in our current lit rates or not rates but the revenue we expected to receive from our from our current
- late rate and you know
- Honestly, I'm not sure we can get much done, if anything at all, if no legislative is changed based
- upon our ability to raise funding. Yes. Is this a two-year bond that you're talking about? Yes.
- So it would be, I'm just, so 20,000, but we'd be paying it off in two years? Correct. Okay.
- So it's 20 million.
- paid off in two years. Oh, yeah. Deal, Rob. Sorry. Again, that's a decent chunk of change,
- but it's not the chunk of change we're talking about. And I guess thrown in here is that with the referendum,
- item one, if we went through that process, that would allow us to utilize the referendum as a tax backup
- and not necessarily set a tax rate. And then we could utilize
- lit for our primary payment, and then if something went different than expected in that transition of
- 28 and beyond, we would have the ability to utilize that property tax backup, but it would still be
- subject to that referendum process. And just real quick before we go any further, you now see on your
- screens the information that started Mr. Cockrell's conversation. And Mr. Cockrell, I think if you want to
- address any of this, and whoever's projecting it, can you please zoom in for those of us with old eyes?
- I have the youngest old eyes, yeah. And I guess, again, caveat, too, it's not been audited,
- and I'm not sure if it's true. Essentially, what it says, 2025 lit rates, those are the calculations
- we were using before SB1 on what we thought we could afford.
- and then the 2026 later, sorry, there are just those numbers updated by the difference between what
- we expect at 1% of the rate to collect versus last year versus this year. Council Member Hawke.
- So as what happens many times with a bond issue that we do, we, the large ones, we back it up with general
- obligation. However, you're saying this particular one when we would not
- be able to do it because of the price tag of it without a referendum. So if I'm understanding you right,
- that means that whatever
- bonding mechanism will use lease or whatever, we would not be able to back it up with property tax.
- We've just got the income tax to back it up, which would then cause a higher interest rate. Am I following
- you? I think you're following, except the reason we can't back it up, it's got nothing to do with the
- size of the bond. It's got everything to do with that transition in between 27 and 28 on that.
- We had the revenue.
- The question is can we will our revenue source, can we reasonably assume that it will cover the cost
- and be able to pay off the debt over the course of the period of time and given that we're dealing with
- a with a revenue source that doesn't exist today.
- is according to bond council we cannot make that determination that that would be reasonable to expect
- that to be able to do which is why we'd have to go through a referendum process because we couldn't
- make the statement based upon what we have today we can pay we have we can point the revenue that we
- feel we will pay this
- that off and we won't have to use that. Yes, we'd have to do the referendum process to do it that length.
- It's not really associated with the amount of the bond other than the fact that the current SB1 would
- not allow for us to do that.
- I think the end of the day answer is correct. We'd have to go through the referendum. It would be subject
- to referendum. I'm trying to get the bond council's words correct. Subject to the referendum process,
- but it's a combination of size and the changes brought on by SB1. And then I guess the final answer
- is essentially
- what changes would need to be made for us to be able to utilize the funding that we thought we were
- going to have moving forward and that would be there really really three different issues. One is we're
- we're subject to 25% of our lit revenue so we if that got extended and we were able to bond on just
- the 25% we would
- be in the range of $126 to $137 million in bonding capacity, which if we spent all our cash in the edit
- and the corrections would probably be about $160 million projects, give or take a little bit.
- I didn't have time to do all that math today.
- So that's if that 25% cap was extended so that we could bond for 20 years based upon that 25% of your
- lit rate. The second, if we wanted to do, if we got legislation to do the full project, we were looking at,
- in Mr. Garretaz's presentation on the first, it was a 0.41 rate. 0.41 income tax rate would cover our
- debt service on this.
- My calculations based on the increase, it's down a little bit to 0.39 to 0.4, somewhere in that range,
- but it's still well above the 0.25, right? And so we would need to have them, the state legislature
- authorizes us in one way or another. I know there are a couple of different mechanisms. The simplest
- to me is just allow us to use the current rate if we can demonstrate that that rate is reasonable and
- we're allowed to commit that future revenue source towards that.
- the rate would be about 0.41 is what we would need to do that. Or there's the special purpose tax,
- which would be kind of like our juvenile lit, which would be a separate tax from what we currently receive.
- So it would be an additional tax. And then in 2027, 28, when you guys didn't get the authority to levy
- the tax and you would have the ability to take that into account as you're setting the rest of the tax rates.
- My personal feeling as someone who likes math but doesn't like it that much is that if we could just
- be able to use what we currently have, because in my mind, it's sufficient, at least for today,
- and we never know what tomorrow is going to bring. And that would continue the plan that we had from
- last year before the SB1 hit. That would be, in my mind, the peripheral course if we were able to get the full
- full amount to do the project. All right, Council, that's three options and a lot of numbers. Mr. Henry,
- I see your hand first. Thank you, Mr. President. I'll keep it brief. So we had the options from FSG
- in the long-term government finance meeting. Jeff, thank you for walking through those again and providing
- some numbers. So all three options don't get us where we need to go today.
- basically, because we have choices to make. Going to the public for a referendum is, democratically speaking,
- probably the right thing to do for a quarter of a billion dollar project to let the public weigh in.
- And yet I can appreciate there's heartburn probably even bringing that up, but I think that when we're
- talking about a project of this size for our county's history, it's not something that they immediately
- take off the table. Option B is
- 10 percent or less than 10 percent. Right. We get about 20 million started. It sounds like we pay our
- fees for what's been done. We level some land out at North Park and we buy it and we're basically waiting
- at that point. So that doesn't really get us anywhere closer to getting folks out of the building.
- And I presume puts us into a funnel of well what do we do next once we figure out what the state legislature
- wants to do. Let me finish. Option three sounds a bit like we're waiting for new legislation and we hope
- and that after the gerrymandering of the state and they get around to helping us out at some point,
- I think that that might be wish thinking. So what I hear here today is, and I want to honor again DLZ's work,
- it is a really great product.
- that we can't pay for today. And as I heard your math, that if we look at $137 million project,
- that's 40% off including soft costs. And if we look at 0.41 of the 1.2, that's a third off of the total
- of this, a third of our tax capability going for 20 years to pay for this project. And those are huge
- differences from where we were in November of 24.
- So I think we need to be pragmatic and courageous and sort through this correctly to get to where we
- need to go. But as I'm hearing it right now, there is no, we're putting a bet on the table and hoping
- in two years we can continue with the project and unless someone has better foresight than that on how
- the state legislature is going to work, I'm all ears. I guess maybe if I can, I guess
- If we, and this is a tough assumption, right? If we assume that the current schedule for lit is going
- to remain in the 25%, then in 28, I'm using your, I think your scenario where we do what we can today,
- we level it out and we get the site ready. And then in 28, I think you guys would have the ability to
- go in and, or you would have the ability to go in and issue a bond that could build the building.
- The concern in my mind is that I don't know what costs are going to look like in two years.
- But I'm willing to bet they're going to be higher than they are today. So if we went with 5% a year,
- you're talking $20, $30 million, which is a lot. It could be used to put people elsewhere in
- some alternatives and to think through some alternatives. $30 million is a lot of money.
- All right, other council members have any thoughts? This is a lot. This is a lot of information.
- It's a heavy topic with a lot of change and it's just, this is hard. That in uncertainty, yes.
- Council member Hawke, I'm sorry. Right now, we are looking at buying North Park
- That's not a done deal. And it includes a caveat that we co-locate within a certain period of time.
- So I don't know how we close on North Park, on the purchase of North Park, or how we even move forward
- because unless that offer to purchase changes. I think the offer to purchase is still there.
- I think we are, I think it needs an additional appropriation by the county council. So you guys will
- have to review that because we had earmarked the edit ban money for that purchase and the purchase price
- was more than the edit ban amount was. So there's an additional appropriation that's going to be required.
- And so I think that's the time to have that conversation.
- The document does not say we have to co-locate in order for us to purchase and begin building.
- It says we have to have the courts underbid before we utilize the jail for housing inmates.
- So there is a difference there. What does that mean? I mean, does that mean all eight? Does it mean
- all the courts? Or what does that mean? I mean, that can't.
- That's an ass on there, so it's got to be more than one. Yeah. Certainly, it does not mean public defender,
- prosecutor, clerk. And I don't want to come across and say that those groups hasn't. When we talked
- about co-location in the past, the courts and the sheriff and those groups, they were fairly persuasive
- on why co-locations is important, right? One topic.
- That's great. I would encourage you to talk to them about that and get their thoughts because they were
- persuasive a year ago and two years ago on why that's important. So given that, but the agreement does
- not include all of the justice related components. It says the jail will not be open until
- bids are out for the courts or accepted for the courts, one of those two. All right. If there are no
- other counselors that want to make comment at this point, the public is here. Mr. Deckard. I want to
- hear from the public, but I do want to say this. I think we have to be very cautious as a council in
- not sending a reverse message to Indianapolis or legislators that are watching this or anything that
- We just might be, well, maybe give up on the original plan that we actually adopted and that we don't
- want to do, that maybe we're just going to sit on the side of the road and not do it. We had a plan,
- and then things changed. We're not bumbling Keystone cops. I said this the other night in a meeting.
- Sometimes there's a narrative, oh, Monroe County can't find the light switch. We found the light switch.
- We were heading towards it. We've employed very strong individuals. We've taken public comment a million
- times on this project. We've listened to counselors.
- input we've responded to that we've listened to our multiple units input and that will continue to happen
- towards an effort for cost down. But to me if there was an onus put on anyone it would be our friends
- elsewhere in the legislature who would look at this and say you know we've got a county that cannot
- move forward on a plan that it
- it was responding to and doing. I don't want people to think, oh, there they are. They're fighting again.
- They can't find their key ring. And the reality is we know this has got to get done, right?
- We know that it has to happen for whatever cause it is that you have. If it's constitutional care in
- the jail that you care about and you're not actually someone in that jail, it is your job to advocate
- for people having the best conditions while they're in that
- in that circumstance. If it's our folks, it's the ease by which both a prosecutor and a public defender
- access a courts, which then accesses those who are in the system. So all those things play into it.
- And I don't want anyone up north or elsewhere who might sheepishly be watching this. Oh, they're fighting
- again to think that we are sitting on the side of the road. We had a plan. Let us run our plan.
- And, you know, or give us a better option, but my gosh, counties who are local, cities who are local,
- townships who are local, fire departments, they have got to have the ability to do what they do because
- we are the closest form of government. And that cannot get lost in the shuffle. Thank you, Mr. Deckard.
- We will now move to public comments. You will have three minutes. Please come up to any one
- of the microphones, either at the table. I don't know if the microphone on the podium is working,
- but there's lots of spots at the table here in the NatU Hill Room. And if you're joining us on Teams,
- raise your hand. We will alternate between folks in the NatU Hill Room talking and folks on Teams talking.
- So if there
- We, I'm noticing that an individual is coming forth in that new Hill Room. If you could please state
- your name for the record, you have three minutes. Oh, TSD, you're on it. Thank you. Hello, my name is
- Lee Gruntheifer. I have some comments that I wrote down here because it's difficult for me to speak in public.
- Who pays for this new jail?
- who pays for it. Traditionally, the people who live in a place own property and therefore pay property taxes,
- which are used for capital projects. Right. I own property, I pay property tax, capital project.
- The jail is definitely, and the justice system, definitely a capital project. The local income tax,
- which we refer to as LIT, which is paid by people who live in and have jobs in this county, is newish.
- You know, newish. And fluctuation issues are still being worked out with this new tax. Why is the state
- of Indiana shifting the tax burden from the owners of property to the workers of a county? Why?
- Is it because people who live here can't afford to buy property here? Or is it because investors own
- property here? I don't know.
- Is it because of the unstable nature of LIT that the fiscal or the fiscal irresponsibility of county
- council bodies across Indiana that has caused the Senate enacted Bill 1 to place these restrictions on LIT?
- I mean, we have to understand that hopefully the state isn't just stupid and they've
- put these restrictions on county council bodies for reasons. And we know one of the reasons,
- we know that with Senate enacted Bill 1, property taxes revenue will go down. The reduction of property
- tax funds in this county will impact main services provided by the county such as roads and
- health department. It seems clear to me
- and by design that the future of lit revenue will need to be used to supplement the county budget.
- For mainline services, the capital project needs to be scrapped, in my opinion, due to the changing
- revenue basis and the uncertainty of the political climate. Thank you. All right. Looking on teams to
- see if anybody has raised their hand.
- I don't see any hands raised, so we will return to the NETU Hill Room. Please come forward. The floor
- is yours for three minutes. Sorry, I also have things written down because...
- Okay, I'm going to try to keep this under three minutes. Hi, my name is Kathleen Paquette. I've been
- a resident of Monroe County for 23 years. I'm a small business owner. I'm partnered with a public school
- teacher, and I volunteer with a few different organizations in various capacities, including
- doing legislative research with Hoosier Action. So consequently, I'm very aware of the financial constraints
- placed on us as a result of property tax reform.
- as well as generally decreased funding coming down from the federal level for all manner of public goods
- and services. I have many, many concerns about this proposed project. I believe everyone currently present
- here likely all agree that all of the people who are currently incarcerated in our county jail and who
- work in that building deserve better than they have. I'm not convinced, however, that this proposed
- project will lead to better outcomes for our community.
- First, while I recognize that city and county government are very, very different, I'm noticing a pattern
- happening with our government-owned buildings. They all seem to be leaking and have mold. Buildings
- require maintenance. The Charlotte Zetlo Justice Building that we're currently using is not old.
- 40 years is very young for a building. My house is older than that. I'm older than that.
- The current building has not been properly cared for. It is a responsibility of the county commission
- to maintain our county-owned buildings. What's done is done. We're here to discuss moving forward.
- But that doesn't mean we don't learn lessons or atone for the past. The plan presented today covers
- construction costs. There's been some mention of the $11 million price tag on the land.
- a little bit of discussion about increased operating costs. And also, there is maintenance on a larger
- building with a larger footprint with land and a large parking lot. Currently, the city maintains the
- nearby parking garage for the Justice Building that we're in. There's no landscaping to speak of.
- If we are currently unable to fix leaking pipes in the building we have, why should we as a community
- trust that there are resources moving forward
- to landscape a sprawling complex, snow plow a giant parking lot. The reality is that we have fewer resources
- moving forward thanks to our state and federal government. I do not think it is fair or reasonable to
- ask the people who live and pay taxes in and care about this community to trust that we will somehow
- find both the will and the resources to do better with less. I have many more concerns, some of which
- I'll list quickly in the interest of time. Moving out of our city center affects our economy.
- We're moving all kinds of necessary public resources from traffic courts to marriage licenses to early
- voting and making them inaccessible except for by car. I personally have a concern that I don't think
- is unreasonable in our current environment of potentially empty beds being commandeered by people who
- would frankly not like nothing better to come and to own the libs in Bloomington by commandeering potential
- detention space.
- Just building a capacity with more beds assumes increased incarceration. And we have a declining population.
- We have a steady decline in violent crime. I'm sorry, am I out of time? Real quick, I'm just going to
- say that we have an opportunity to be a community that invests in care and services. And what's happening
- on a national level is, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry I'm out of time. This is a microcosm of what's happening
- on a national level.
- invest in care rather than locking people away. Thank you for your time. All right, looking for other
- folks that wish to make public comments. I'm looking on Teams. Please raise your hand if you'd like
- to discuss this very important topic. Seeing none, I'm looking back in that you Hill room. The floor
- is yours for three minutes.
- Good afternoon, my name is Seth much lower resident of Monroe County. I today I'm actually going to
- not speak to you, the council, because I feel like you've all been very gracious in hearing me you know
- where I stand on this issue.
- I'm not going to speak to you, DLZ, today because I noted that you had stakeholder outreach, but I did
- not receive any meetings to any public discussions that you had just with members of the justice community,
- nor was I made aware of any meetings with folks with lived experience of incarceration. I'm instead
- going to speak to members of the public.
- Today's age of rising authoritarianism and fascism, in our age of black and brown folks being rounded
- up and detained indefinitely, in an age of social service agencies being seriously worried whether they'll
- be in operation this time next year, in an age where it is just every day harder and harder to make ends meet.
- If you are out there and you feel that our county needs to be prioritizing housing,
- mental health treatment, substance use treatment, food security, and just making it easier to be a resident
- in Monroe County, if you feel that instead of building a new mega jail, you are not alone in that feeling.
- There are many people who feel that the priorities of this county are going seriously off track.
- And so I would invite anybody who feels this way or is just curious to learn more and is sort of like, hmm,
- yeah, this doesn't add up to please join Care Not Cages. We are hosting an informational session on Sunday,
- September 14th at 2 p.m. at the Monroe County Public Library Auditorium. We will be discussing what's
- really going on with incarceration in our county.
- What are the alternatives that aren't building a new $225 million jail and how to get involved in setting
- the county back on track? Thank you. Thank you for your public comments. The mic is open if you'd like
- to make public comment. I'm looking on Teams and not seeing any hands. I'm looking in the NatU Hill Room.
- I'm also not seeing anyone come forward. Give it a moment here.
- All right. Before we adjourn this meeting, I will remind everyone that the county commissioners meet
- on Thursdays. The county council meets on Tuesdays. If you go to IN.gov slash counties slash Monroe,
- you'll find a calendar with links to all of our meetings. You can join virtually as well as agendas.
- We will continue talking about this very important topic. And the last thing I'll note is if you go
- to the county council's website, all of our phone numbers are on there.
- All of our emails are on there. Call us, email us. We work for you. This meeting is adjourned.