WEBVTT 00:00:00.482 --> 00:00:07.382 - So it's just a couple minutes after six o'clock, and I'm Liz Fiddle, and I'm calling together, calling 00:00:07.382 --> 00:00:14.483 - to order this collaborative justice project working subcommittee meeting. And to my right, we have Carrie 00:00:14.483 --> 00:00:21.315 - Thompson, mayor of Bloomington. We have Sydney Zulek, city council rep. We have April Wilson from the 00:00:21.315 --> 00:00:28.215 - prosecutor's office, and we have Karen Renvet from the public defender's office. Welcome, and we shall 00:00:28.215 --> 00:00:29.086 - get started. 00:00:29.506 --> 00:00:38.815 - Let's adopt the agenda. I know it's not a complicated agenda. We're working on the site evaluation and 00:00:38.815 --> 00:00:48.124 - we can get a motion to adopt the agenda. Moved. Second? Second. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? All right, 00:00:48.124 --> 00:00:57.614 - we have an agenda. So let's dig right into it. I think we were the most up-to-date version of the metric 00:00:57.614 --> 00:00:59.422 - sheet that includes 00:01:00.098 --> 00:01:08.835 - many things filled in and maybe many things not filled in so we need we need to really buckle down and 00:01:08.835 --> 00:01:17.317 - go through this tonight so I think there is the larger paper version is the site evaluation metrics 00:01:17.317 --> 00:01:25.630 - and then Molly would you explain the smaller version document so all the um so the larger version 00:01:26.754 --> 00:01:34.701 - Okay, before added properties from the last meeting, all the properties fit on one page, but North Park. 00:01:34.701 --> 00:01:42.497 - But with the addition of the extra properties, we couldn't fit them all on one page. So the first page 00:01:42.497 --> 00:01:50.065 - is just the first 11 properties. And then the second page is the next five. I see. And then I tried 00:01:50.065 --> 00:01:56.574 - to put the questions so that you could still see them, but Excel was not cooperating. 00:01:56.834 --> 00:02:04.703 - So it's just the site matrix for all the properties, just broken down into two spreadsheets. Right. 00:02:04.703 --> 00:02:12.808 - So let me see here. So there's three pages on the small sheet, and there seems to be four pages on the 00:02:12.808 --> 00:02:20.363 - large sheet, right? It's because of spacing. Oh, it's because of spacing. OK. Now I understand. 00:02:20.363 --> 00:02:23.038 - All right. OK. Everybody kind of. 00:02:23.778 --> 00:02:31.374 - At least beginning to digest where we're at here tonight and. Take anyone's comments or suggestions 00:02:31.374 --> 00:02:39.199 - or maybe. Both of the attorneys or one of the attorneys or any of the attorneys would like to make any 00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:47.327 - comments about this before we delve any further into this. This work since I know you've been both working 00:02:47.327 --> 00:02:49.150 - on it in your own ways. 00:02:50.754 --> 00:02:56.786 - this is the first time we've seen this version of it. So if you had anything to explain as we begin 00:02:56.786 --> 00:03:02.877 - to digest it, that would be useful. What do you think is most useful as we begin to look at this? Is 00:03:02.877 --> 00:03:09.331 - there any comment on that? I'll just make a quick comment. I think that this does, because of the original 00:03:09.331 --> 00:03:15.544 - sheet, blend certain public properties and private properties. The private properties, as we've talked 00:03:15.544 --> 00:03:17.534 - a few times, we do at least have 00:03:17.826 --> 00:03:24.005 - Two on here that are not named that we took we'll discuss an executive session. I think it's probably 00:03:24.005 --> 00:03:30.063 - wise to discuss all the private properties together Just because of very similar Obstacles but also 00:03:30.063 --> 00:03:36.546 - steps that would need to be taken for purchase and negotiation of those properties. It's just a suggestion 00:03:36.546 --> 00:03:42.846 - There's significant amount of information on the publicly available properties either owned by the city 00:03:42.946 --> 00:03:48.735 - or the county, so that might be the most fruitful place to start and we can go down there. To the extent 00:03:48.735 --> 00:03:54.249 - that there are blanks still in this sheet, I think we can fill in most of them. I know that most of 00:03:54.249 --> 00:03:59.817 - the county properties, Molly and Jeff had worked on and then the city properties I had worked on. So 00:03:59.817 --> 00:04:05.331 - between the two of us, I think we at least have some information that we can answer those questions 00:04:05.331 --> 00:04:11.230 - as we go as well and fill in some of that information. Does that sound good to everybody on the committee? 00:04:11.810 --> 00:04:20.306 - any suggestions as we begin to tackle this. I'm just wondering if there are any properties on either 00:04:20.306 --> 00:04:29.055 - of these sheets that for one reason or another a committee member might want to suggest is not feasible 00:04:29.055 --> 00:04:37.719 - at all and then we don't have to go through the checklist. Very wise way of going about it. Thank you. 00:04:37.719 --> 00:04:39.486 - Yes I like that too. 00:04:41.570 --> 00:04:48.045 - is that something you're asking the committee or the attorneys or everybody, right? Yes, I think we 00:04:48.045 --> 00:04:54.520 - just asked the attorneys for their feedback. I'm asking the committee if anyone sees sites that are 00:04:54.520 --> 00:05:01.060 - not viable. Well, the Bloomington Transit Garage, it looks like the owner is not willing to sell the 00:05:01.060 --> 00:05:07.989 - property, so that would pretty much take it off the table. And it's in a floodway. And it's in a floodway. 00:05:07.989 --> 00:05:11.550 - We're going to take that one out. And as we go across, 00:05:11.650 --> 00:05:19.331 - the next one's okay or not okay. Could we just gray it out so that property on the list but we know 00:05:19.331 --> 00:05:27.088 - that we've screened it out. Would it be okay if we just grayed it out instead of removed it from the 00:05:27.088 --> 00:05:34.999 - list so that way we know. I think I got a nod over here. Thank you. Yeah thank you. So we'll gray that 00:05:34.999 --> 00:05:39.838 - out the Bloomington Transit garage. All right and the next one 00:05:41.218 --> 00:05:48.791 - So that would be the renovations of current building with Curry, right? What are we thinking about that 00:05:48.791 --> 00:05:56.364 - one? That one's definitely worth discussion. Okay, so leave it, right? Everybody agree? April and Karen 00:05:56.364 --> 00:06:04.446 - agree? Okay. Yeah, yes. Fell iron, been the lumber. Did we discern whether that property has been sold or not? 00:06:05.474 --> 00:06:11.975 - It looks like, so in just in April of 2026, so just recently, that went, at least the fell iron property 00:06:11.975 --> 00:06:18.351 - went through the planning approval process and it's been approved for apartment building construction. 00:06:18.351 --> 00:06:24.542 - So it's very unlikely that that's for sale. And these are two separate properties with two separate 00:06:24.542 --> 00:06:30.733 - owners actually go across the B line. So you're talking about kind of separated properties already. 00:06:30.733 --> 00:06:33.086 - Likely though, I mean, we can always, 00:06:33.282 --> 00:06:40.245 - peel off one part of that and consider the other but I don't think it's I don't think it's very likely 00:06:40.245 --> 00:06:47.275 - that's going to be for sale given the advanced stage of the planning process. So it sounds like we need 00:06:47.275 --> 00:06:54.035 - to take that one and gray it or take it out whatever we're calling that now. And then Hopewell West 00:06:54.035 --> 00:06:59.646 - that seems to be next. Yeah so I can speak a little bit to Hopewell West and East. 00:07:00.514 --> 00:07:09.006 - These are RDC owned properties and so an official decision would need to come from the RDC. I have done 00:07:09.006 --> 00:07:17.252 - some checking though and there is full plat complete which means as well as a park installed etc. So 00:07:17.252 --> 00:07:25.662 - there's significant planning already executed for residential and public promise of residential there. 00:07:27.106 --> 00:07:36.261 - Again, I won't speak for RDC if you want to make an official ask, but I would say it's unlikely. What 00:07:36.261 --> 00:07:45.326 - do we think we want to do with this property and the rest of the committee? I think it's still worth 00:07:45.326 --> 00:07:51.070 - discussing, but I will point out that in old B Square coverage, 00:07:51.266 --> 00:07:58.041 - Back from 2023, one of the other issues with Hopewell, apart from the Bloomington City Council 00:07:58.041 --> 00:08:05.387 - not necessarily being willing to part with the property. I believe there was also a big question about 00:08:05.387 --> 00:08:13.233 - the ability to co-locate on Hopewell. And so that would be another thing to keep in mind as we're discussing. 00:08:13.233 --> 00:08:20.222 - You mean the jail facility and other things? Yes. Okay. Just wanted to make sure. Yes, thank you. 00:08:21.154 --> 00:08:30.544 - Okay, so are we agreeing to leave it on with further discussion at least until it's not on anymore? 00:08:30.544 --> 00:08:40.403 - How will we find out it's not on? Officially you would need to get it on the RDC agenda with an official 00:08:40.403 --> 00:08:49.886 - proposal. I guess my suggested process for that would be if it floats up to be one of our top three, 00:08:51.202 --> 00:09:01.544 - knowing it's unlikely we did ask them to consider that okay that sound good to the rest of the committee 00:09:01.544 --> 00:09:11.887 - yep okay so it's gonna remain on for now it sounds all right the HT building it's for sale as I remember 00:09:11.887 --> 00:09:18.782 - so I know it's for sale I think do you know if Jeff updated us on the 00:09:21.794 --> 00:09:28.452 - It was under a letter of intent for purchase by an arts group. I think they were supposed to have that 00:09:28.452 --> 00:09:35.174 - answer. My understanding is Jeff was gonna fill that in. It's been in due diligence phase for potential 00:09:35.174 --> 00:09:41.703 - sale. Again, it could be left on for now until we confirm for sure that it's not and very similar to 00:09:41.703 --> 00:09:48.232 - Hopewell what we said. If you all decide that it's one of your top targets, then of course we can do 00:09:48.232 --> 00:09:50.494 - a lot more digging into the staff. 00:09:51.586 --> 00:09:58.782 - Okay. Just as a note on that site, again, partial unusability of part of the site. It is in a floodway 00:09:58.782 --> 00:10:05.769 - and part of, I mean, by floodway, I mean a creek in part of the site. There's extensive demolition, 00:10:05.769 --> 00:10:13.244 - et cetera, et cetera, et cetera on that site. So there are challenges there, notwithstanding the potential 00:10:13.244 --> 00:10:19.742 - sale. Okay. I will leave it on for now and not shade it out ultimately at this point, right? 00:10:21.346 --> 00:10:30.598 - and south of the post office. That looks like that's in a floodway as I can see, right? We know we can't 00:10:30.598 --> 00:10:39.585 - build in a floodway. It seems like we should gray that out similar to the Bloomington Transit Garage. 00:10:39.585 --> 00:10:48.573 - Yes, is that right? We're gonna take that one out. Okay. Tap Road North. Looks like it's partially in 00:10:48.573 --> 00:10:49.630 - a floodway. 00:10:51.234 --> 00:11:00.194 - what percentage of that would be and how it would impact the building that we need to build. Like there's 00:11:00.194 --> 00:11:08.647 - 107 acres at that site. Can you help me understand the degree at which, yes, partially is affecting 00:11:08.647 --> 00:11:16.254 - the property? It's not significant enough that it would affect the buildable area really. 00:11:16.514 --> 00:11:23.870 - practically for you all. Probably the bigger consideration for North is it's a 00:11:24.034 --> 00:11:30.616 - It's adjacent, I'm sorry to use these types of terms, but it's adjacent to a karst area. It is planned 00:11:30.616 --> 00:11:37.199 - for building out though. Significant hills, there's a lot of infrastructure that needs to be built in. 00:11:37.199 --> 00:11:43.078 - The city's at least transportation plan has called for a relocation of Weimar Road for that 00:11:43.078 --> 00:11:48.894 - to be straightened out across this property, which would require the building of a bridge. 00:11:49.026 --> 00:11:56.045 - on the property because of the photography, but neither the floodway nor the being adjacent to Karst 00:11:56.045 --> 00:12:03.481 - area prevents you from building on. I mean, as we noted here, it's a hundred acres. It's not a significant 00:12:03.481 --> 00:12:10.430 - portion of it. It's just a small sliver. And because it crossed the property boundary, we said that 00:12:10.430 --> 00:12:17.310 - it did. Okay. So it seems minimal, right? Yes. And this property is on the north side of Tap Road. 00:12:18.466 --> 00:12:27.328 - Jason to Wapahani. Okay, correct. Anything else about the tap road north before we go on? With the owner 00:12:27.328 --> 00:12:35.768 - willing to sell the property being listed as unknown, at what point would we know? We still need to 00:12:35.768 --> 00:12:43.870 - reach out to the owners and find a definite answer to see if there's any interest there at all. 00:12:49.026 --> 00:13:00.413 - Okay. Ready for Tap Road South now. Tap Road South. Did somebody say something? I'm sorry. I just said 00:13:00.413 --> 00:13:11.579 - it's big, 95 acres. It is big, 95.29 acres it says. It doesn't look like there's anything on here to 00:13:11.579 --> 00:13:16.222 - just qualify it. That's right, thank you. 00:13:24.162 --> 00:13:35.244 - Thompson? Disqualified. Say that one more time. Nothing to disqualify from the preliminary round. Okay, 00:13:35.244 --> 00:13:46.112 - thank you. I'll leave that on, right? Then we'll go over to the next set of papers. South State Road, 00:13:46.112 --> 00:13:48.030 - 37 and Fullerton. 00:13:53.346 --> 00:14:02.237 - the screening questions. I'm sorry, say that again. It's the screening questions. Is agree nothing to 00:14:02.237 --> 00:14:11.215 - disqualify. I think we can leave it on. Is North Park great out for a reason and private lot too? It's 00:14:11.215 --> 00:14:20.716 - great out specifically because it's outside of the city. So beyond the purview of this particular committee, 00:14:20.716 --> 00:14:23.070 - same with private lot too. 00:14:26.626 --> 00:14:37.407 - We're gonna leave Fullerton on, I presume? Yes. Okay. And North Park will stay on there, but grayed 00:14:37.407 --> 00:14:48.727 - out. And City Hall parking lot. I would just say that, yeah, I would say that there's no viable solution 00:14:48.727 --> 00:14:56.382 - for city parking if we were to get rid of that. It's not a short-term, 00:14:58.562 --> 00:15:06.391 - resolution to come up with that. And so I would say for the purpose of this group, it's not really a 00:15:06.391 --> 00:15:14.531 - viable discussion at this point. And we will gray that out. It seems I would agree with that assessment. 00:15:14.531 --> 00:15:22.592 - Yes, I will push back a little bit just because one of my colleagues, I believe council member Flaherty 00:15:22.592 --> 00:15:27.166 - put put this forward. So I feel like as the representative 00:15:29.186 --> 00:15:35.633 - It might be worth just keeping it on the list, not saying that that's going to be the option we go with. 00:15:35.633 --> 00:15:41.773 - Am I reading it right where it says 1.3 acres? Not big enough. I don't know how what we have to fit 00:15:41.773 --> 00:15:47.974 - would fit there, right? Physically. I can reach out to Councilmember Flaherty. Can you see if he has 00:15:47.974 --> 00:15:54.114 - a better idea how he thought that was going to fit? Yeah. That would be great. I would say the same 00:15:54.114 --> 00:15:57.982 - for Convention Center parking lot. They're both... Same signs. 00:16:00.002 --> 00:16:08.725 - Subpar for space. It's also overflow for county employees parking because the county parking garage 00:16:08.725 --> 00:16:17.710 - is smaller than needed at times. Then so let's go back to the City Hall parking lot. Are we gonna gray 00:16:17.710 --> 00:16:27.742 - that out or for now like just like the Convention Center or not? Councilmember Zulik said she well sorry go ahead. 00:16:28.386 --> 00:16:35.161 - bring it back. I think the point about the square footage is well taken and I'm happy to leave it off 00:16:35.161 --> 00:16:41.803 - as well. Okay so we can gray that out along with the convention center and then if that changes you 00:16:41.803 --> 00:16:48.578 - can let us know right? Absolutely. Yeah okay. Will do. We don't have a final recommendation yet so we 00:16:48.578 --> 00:16:55.286 - have some time. Thank you. So private lot one so again that's 1.6 acres from what I can see right? I 00:16:55.286 --> 00:16:58.142 - would also say it doesn't meet the minimum 00:16:58.370 --> 00:17:04.001 - square footage unless it's adjacent to something else so without being an executive session i'm not 00:17:04.001 --> 00:17:09.689 - sure what this is but we're happy to present that to you thursday just to give you a little bit more 00:17:09.689 --> 00:17:15.489 - information about the location and the pros and cons of like the others i think we can gray it out for 00:17:15.489 --> 00:17:21.345 - now and bring it back if we need to will that work so we're kind of consistent on that philosophy right 00:17:21.345 --> 00:17:26.526 - i'll just ask the attorneys to proactively bring it back to us in executive session if it's 00:17:26.658 --> 00:17:36.829 - Directly adjacent to another property that we're discussing and could be added Yes, that will that will 00:17:36.829 --> 00:17:46.609 - take care of that. Thank you And then private lot two that is 30 acres Okay, so let's tally up what 00:17:46.609 --> 00:17:55.998 - we have left here from what I can tell what I wrote down Building with curry the curry building 00:17:57.506 --> 00:18:05.964 - The Tap Road North, Tap Road South, Thompson, Fullerton. About it, right? I think we still have question 00:18:05.964 --> 00:18:14.099 - marks on Hopewell. East, West, and HT is, according to my notes, we did not choose to gray them out, 00:18:14.099 --> 00:18:22.235 - although they all sound like long shots. Yeah. In some ways, I'd be happy with graying them out, and 00:18:22.235 --> 00:18:27.390 - then we can bring them back. I kind of like that at some point. 00:18:27.682 --> 00:18:35.496 - Was that a comfortable way to do it for others or do you like just putting question marks there for 00:18:35.496 --> 00:18:43.467 - now? I'm fine either way actually, but. I think we have a week left and we need to. If we really want 00:18:43.467 --> 00:18:51.281 - to chase our highest prospects. We should do a lot of due diligence on the highest prospects. Yeah, 00:18:51.281 --> 00:18:56.126 - my vote is great amount for now. That OK with folks? I agree. 00:18:57.186 --> 00:19:06.982 - Is Wilson, you're okay with that? Yes. Okay, all right. So, that brings us down to... Sorry, fell iron 00:19:06.982 --> 00:19:16.587 - bender lumber also was categorized as a pretty long shot. Grate that out as well. That's what I have 00:19:16.587 --> 00:19:21.342 - on my notes. Yes. Okay, yes. So there's one, two. 00:19:26.146 --> 00:19:36.968 - left is that the tally I get that everybody on the same page there yes counting yeah renovations with 00:19:36.968 --> 00:19:47.684 - three as separate from curry yes we're down to six okay so I'm just gonna number them so I don't get 00:19:47.684 --> 00:19:54.686 - lost here renovations is gonna be one for me Curry's gonna be two 00:19:55.746 --> 00:20:05.783 - be three that's north tap road north tap road south is going to be four thompson will be five everybody 00:20:05.783 --> 00:20:15.433 - got that everybody with me yep okay all right we're down to six so let's proceed down our list here 00:20:15.433 --> 00:20:19.390 - so um can i ask a quick question oh sure 00:20:19.842 --> 00:20:25.868 - So our one and two on this list, one is renovations of current building with Curry, and number two is 00:20:25.868 --> 00:20:31.775 - Curry Building. Can someone tell me what the vision is of the difference between those two columns? 00:20:31.775 --> 00:20:37.978 - I think maybe somebody over there might be able to help more than me. Do you know the difference between 00:20:37.978 --> 00:20:43.885 - these two projects? Well enough to speak about it? I mean, I know there's a difference, but I don't 00:20:43.885 --> 00:20:49.438 - know if I'm well enough to speak about it. I think the difference between the two columns is, 00:20:49.634 --> 00:20:55.933 - The first column, the renovation, incorporates reusing the current justice building. The second column 00:20:55.933 --> 00:21:02.171 - uses Curry alone. I don't know that the space with it would be Curry and Fiscus. The Curry and Fiscus 00:21:02.171 --> 00:21:08.286 - building alone provides enough square footage. And so I think the only viable option would probably 00:21:08.286 --> 00:21:14.402 - be with the use of the current justice building. Which would be the new number one? It would be the 00:21:14.402 --> 00:21:16.542 - first column. First viable column. 00:21:19.234 --> 00:21:25.714 - and we should eliminate two under that. Is that correct? Do you know the size of the Curry Fiscus alone? 00:21:25.714 --> 00:21:32.008 - Or can we look that up potentially? I can try to look it up. I know that we asked our GIS division to 00:21:32.008 --> 00:21:38.303 - do a map of all the properties with square footage and then to put the overlays to show usable square 00:21:38.303 --> 00:21:44.721 - footage and they're currently working on them. We hope to have it by the next meeting, but I also don't 00:21:44.721 --> 00:21:48.670 - want to commit the surveyors office to the undeliverable. Sure. 00:21:50.978 --> 00:21:57.801 - be helpful to clarify whether we're just talking about the Curry Building or any other county adjacent 00:21:57.801 --> 00:22:04.624 - owned property to it as well. The Curry Building itself is a separate parcel which is relatively small 00:22:04.624 --> 00:22:11.248 - and it does it is not historically designated surprisingly even though it's renovated as a historic 00:22:11.248 --> 00:22:17.938 - building but there is other county property obviously to the immediate west of the Curry Building as 00:22:17.938 --> 00:22:20.190 - well which could expand out that. 00:22:22.210 --> 00:22:29.502 - It's the fifth biggest building that Molly mentioned. That's the public defender's office. Yeah. 00:22:29.502 --> 00:22:37.471 - So Ms. Zulek, I think you added the curry. Did you have a vision of how that would, when we're evaluating 00:22:37.471 --> 00:22:45.139 - the property, it might be helpful to get a sense of what was the proposed? Sure. That came about from 00:22:45.139 --> 00:22:49.950 - a lot of conversations I had with other county council members. 00:22:50.210 --> 00:22:58.732 - happy to reach back out to them. But honestly, I do think. Well, let me back up. I agree that the Curry 00:22:58.732 --> 00:23:06.927 - building itself will not be. Just want to focus on the one and not two. I'm fine with that as well. 00:23:06.927 --> 00:23:15.367 - Did the Curry building in the number two we had at one point with did that include the Fiscus? Is that 00:23:15.367 --> 00:23:19.710 - what she was saying? I believe so, but I can confer. 00:23:19.906 --> 00:23:25.782 - That's what I thought I heard the table over here mentioned. There's just no way you'd leave the viscous 00:23:25.782 --> 00:23:31.545 - building. It just wouldn't make sense. I don't know if it's a separate property or not in terms of the 00:23:31.545 --> 00:23:37.253 - GIS, but it wouldn't make any sense to leave just the much smaller viscous building. So you're saying 00:23:37.253 --> 00:23:42.905 - it would be the curry? I think it has to be both. If you're going to do anything with curry, I think 00:23:42.905 --> 00:23:46.430 - it has to be both because that's all county owned right there. 00:23:48.002 --> 00:23:54.133 - I also have an answer on the historic preservation aspect of Curry, so I'm happy to speak to that one. 00:23:54.133 --> 00:24:00.086 - Let's do that. Okay. So I spoke to the chair of the historic preservation commission, and this is a 00:24:00.086 --> 00:24:06.157 - process that could happen at the exact same time as the rezoning process would odds are it takes much 00:24:06.157 --> 00:24:12.229 - less time than the rezoning process would take. Essentially, it would go to the historic preservation 00:24:12.229 --> 00:24:13.598 - commission, they would 00:24:13.794 --> 00:24:22.006 - It's only on the national registry. It's not considered on our local registry. And so essentially, it 00:24:22.006 --> 00:24:30.219 - would go to the Historic Preservation Commission for a potential demolition delay. If that demolition 00:24:30.219 --> 00:24:38.270 - delay was voted for, it would then come to council who has the final vote to vote it up or down. So 00:24:38.270 --> 00:24:43.262 - ultimately, I do think that my colleagues on council would be 00:24:44.738 --> 00:24:54.306 - favor of maybe doing something to preserve the facade, but certainly not getting in the way of building 00:24:54.306 --> 00:25:03.690 - a new jail. And just to be clear, that will move much more quickly than the zoning process. So that's 00:25:03.690 --> 00:25:09.854 - not something that's going to rub up against us with the timeline. 00:25:10.754 --> 00:25:18.499 - Larry Allen, did you mention that there was no historical designation? So. Just exactly what council 00:25:18.499 --> 00:25:26.245 - members like just said, which is it's not designated under the city. It may be federal, but federal. 00:25:26.245 --> 00:25:34.220 - Replaces, but it's not designated by the city of Wilmington as a district. And how do you approach that 00:25:34.220 --> 00:25:39.742 - national historic designation? How does that work? I'm not sure I know. 00:25:39.906 --> 00:25:45.809 - on record and say this, but I'm fairly certain that it's a contributing building and that the National 00:25:45.809 --> 00:25:51.597 - Registry has much less strict rules for contributing buildings than our local code does. Okay, so it 00:25:51.597 --> 00:25:57.386 - depends on what kind of historic designation it is. I would love to get a confirmation from Attorney 00:25:57.386 --> 00:26:03.289 - Allen. Would that be available on the GIS? Do we know? Does that appear there? It isn't, but I'll look 00:26:03.289 --> 00:26:07.358 - it up and I'll get back to you with that information. Thank you. Okay. 00:26:08.130 --> 00:26:16.659 - I have a question on timeline, though. So if it needs to go to the historic preservation commission 00:26:16.659 --> 00:26:25.274 - or committee, what has to be prepared in order for it to get to the historic preservation committee? 00:26:25.274 --> 00:26:33.803 - Do we need a design? Do we need a proposal? What are the steps to accomplish that? I think it would 00:26:33.803 --> 00:26:37.982 - be demolition approval for the current building. 00:26:38.178 --> 00:26:45.705 - You would need to know enough of the design to know how much of the current building, especially the 00:26:45.705 --> 00:26:53.157 - facade, will be demolished. So if we were gonna... So one of the challenges, I think, with making a 00:26:53.157 --> 00:27:00.758 - Curry building into a jail, if that's the plan, and it sounds like you're gonna follow up on what the 00:27:00.758 --> 00:27:07.614 - proposed plan is for Curry, retrofitting it would probably be the less desirable instead of 00:27:08.258 --> 00:27:15.018 - removing the building entirely and building up from the ground issues for building construction issues. 00:27:15.018 --> 00:27:21.648 - That's why I was trying to figure out, sorry. You're probably going to have to level the building and 00:27:21.648 --> 00:27:28.212 - start from scratch to be short. So I wasn't sure how much of a design or information would be needed 00:27:28.212 --> 00:27:34.712 - to what committee and how long that would take. And one of the things in the resolution was to kind 00:27:34.712 --> 00:27:37.182 - of work through the procedural steps. 00:27:37.282 --> 00:27:45.828 - maybe that's something we could find out by this meeting so we could be able to share that. So I would 00:27:45.828 --> 00:27:54.790 - like to just state the elephant in the room here, which is that we all agreed to serve on the subcommittee. 00:27:54.790 --> 00:28:03.253 - Speaking for myself, I don't have a lot of extra bandwidth right now to do the homework that it takes 00:28:03.253 --> 00:28:07.070 - to figure out the answers to these questions. 00:28:07.266 --> 00:28:17.438 - who are we expecting to do that? For instance, Larry has been chasing a lot of these details for us, 00:28:17.438 --> 00:28:27.811 - and I think some procedural things, and Molly, thank you, I think some of the procedural things we can 00:28:27.811 --> 00:28:31.134 - track down, but when it comes to 00:28:31.938 --> 00:28:43.052 - more specific technical questions about if you want to preserve the facade on the Curry building, I 00:28:43.052 --> 00:28:54.500 - think we actually need a construction expert to come in and give us some idea of exactly what's needed 00:28:54.500 --> 00:28:59.390 - there. The ability to fill out the sheet is 00:29:00.738 --> 00:29:08.123 - going to be challenging by next week. I think that's correct if you're if you're looking for an opinion 00:29:08.123 --> 00:29:15.651 - I guess reaction to your statement in terms of what we can do and what we can't do. One of the challenges 00:29:15.651 --> 00:29:23.320 - here I think are twofold. One is my understanding and Molly can correct me if I'm wrong is my understanding 00:29:23.320 --> 00:29:29.214 - is we don't have a contractor like DLZ under contract anymore by the county and so 00:29:29.378 --> 00:29:35.826 - Because the purview of this particular subcommittee doesn't seem to come with expenditure funds, it's 00:29:35.826 --> 00:29:39.998 - very hard to then hire or get that expert to participate in this. 00:29:40.066 --> 00:29:45.563 - I think just as a practical reason, I think the natural tendency here is when we're looking at sites 00:29:45.563 --> 00:29:51.060 - is to want to also start to do the design, i.e. multi-floor, single-floor, all those things. There's 00:29:51.060 --> 00:29:56.665 - a lot of information on the sheet, and this is not to dodge that information. We are trying to get the 00:29:56.665 --> 00:29:59.550 - best information that we possibly can at this stage. 00:29:59.682 --> 00:30:05.992 - But a lot of it does come later, even in the due diligence process, much later, honestly, in the due 00:30:05.992 --> 00:30:12.365 - diligence process to talk about cost of remediation, what remediation is needed. Some of these things 00:30:12.365 --> 00:30:18.613 - we have a good idea on only if they've been developed or redeveloped fairly recently. My example of 00:30:18.613 --> 00:30:24.798 - this would be Hopewell, you know, is a good example of the city has put tremendous amount of money 00:30:24.898 --> 00:30:31.204 - into it similar to the county with looking at both the rogers property the thompson property and north 00:30:31.204 --> 00:30:37.694 - park and so those sites we do have some information on we have the geotechnical we have the environmental 00:30:37.694 --> 00:30:40.510 - so we have a sense of what we're getting into 00:30:40.610 --> 00:30:46.725 - If the property has been sitting with a use for several decades at this point, it's very possible that 00:30:46.725 --> 00:30:52.780 - that documentation is just so out of date and just doesn't exist for us in a readily findable format. 00:30:52.780 --> 00:30:59.250 - Of course, we can find things like environmentally restrictive covenants, things that are publicly recorded, 00:30:59.250 --> 00:31:01.150 - but in terms of getting down to 00:31:01.250 --> 00:31:07.227 - Where is bedrock? Is it even across the site? What kind of soils on the site? What kind of hydrology 00:31:07.227 --> 00:31:13.263 - do we have on the site? All of that comes almost when you're at the groundbreaking phase close to it, 00:31:13.263 --> 00:31:19.418 - because even when you're doing due diligence for the purchase, and I'm sure all of you can attest who's 00:31:19.418 --> 00:31:25.395 - been part of projects, is that you do some amount of potholing and due diligence during the purchase 00:31:25.395 --> 00:31:29.182 - phase, only to find out during construction that that potholing 00:31:29.410 --> 00:31:35.296 - just pick the perfect places to miss the key areas that you needed to know for expenses. So I'm saying 00:31:35.296 --> 00:31:41.125 - that not to delay, but just to acknowledge the reality that there are a lot of these details that are 00:31:41.125 --> 00:31:46.953 - just going to be unknowable at this phase without the expenditure of significant amount of money, not 00:31:46.953 --> 00:31:52.725 - only for the professional construction agency to give their best bet, but also for them to have that 00:31:52.725 --> 00:31:56.382 - information and to be on site and to actually do some analysis. 00:31:58.050 --> 00:32:03.753 - I would say I appreciate that. There's a lot of questions I know that we're not gonna be able to answer 00:32:03.753 --> 00:32:09.291 - until the project gets further along. I think with this particular issue though, the resolution said 00:32:09.291 --> 00:32:14.829 - we had to look at properties within the city limits. By nature of that, that also means that there's 00:32:14.829 --> 00:32:20.422 - gonna have to be city processes we're gonna have to go through. And one of the foundational questions 00:32:20.422 --> 00:32:26.289 - that we have is how quickly we'll be able to build the property, which is of particular relevance, because 00:32:26.289 --> 00:32:27.934 - we know we're gonna get sued. 00:32:28.162 --> 00:32:34.528 - And besides the fact that there are 200 plus human beings in that building, and every day they're in 00:32:34.528 --> 00:32:41.083 - that justice building or in that jail, they're being exposed to conditions that have to change. So time 00:32:41.083 --> 00:32:47.575 - is one of our most critical, if not the most critical factor we have. So I was hoping we could explore 00:32:47.575 --> 00:32:53.814 - a little bit more about how long the city process takes. If it has to be the Historic Preservation 00:32:53.814 --> 00:32:57.470 - Commission, and then we have to go to the county council, 00:32:57.602 --> 00:33:03.281 - I know we have council member Zulek here, but I know she can only speak for herself. And then there 00:33:03.281 --> 00:33:09.131 - might be other people that I don't know what their positions are going to be. But knowing that process 00:33:09.131 --> 00:33:15.378 - and how long it takes will impact how quickly the project can move, which is I think some of these properties 00:33:15.378 --> 00:33:20.830 - we're going to eliminate because we're concerned about time. So if we can figure out the steps, 00:33:20.962 --> 00:33:26.478 - time period. I'm happy to make calls. You tell me who to call. I will follow up and put the hours in 00:33:26.478 --> 00:33:31.938 - if we need to. But whatever way I can help, I'm happy to help. And I'm very sorry and I didn't mean 00:33:31.938 --> 00:33:37.618 - to cause any confusion with my answer. I believe that the city processes are the most noble thing here. 00:33:37.618 --> 00:33:39.966 - The parts that are unknowable are honestly 00:33:40.098 --> 00:33:46.200 - some of the detailed site conditions and and when we're talking about is it appropriate for a particular 00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:52.186 - type of building that's where I'm talking about the difficulty you're you're 100% right about the city 00:33:52.186 --> 00:33:58.055 - processes and and we do have time estimates as we go down the sheet we have time estimates now those 00:33:58.055 --> 00:34:03.866 - can be sped up a little bit I think with cooperation and clear clear togetherness from the city and 00:34:03.866 --> 00:34:05.726 - the county you know on estimate 00:34:06.018 --> 00:34:13.478 - Just if you don't mind me taking another point of privilege. So when we're talking about these properties, 00:34:13.478 --> 00:34:20.799 - all of these properties across the board, not one of them exist in a zoning area that allows for a jail. 00:34:20.799 --> 00:34:27.771 - So the city of Bloomington has two zoning areas that allow jails as a conditional use. Those are an 00:34:27.771 --> 00:34:32.094 - institutional zoning area and then an employment zoning area. 00:34:32.514 --> 00:34:38.854 - None of these are in either of those types of zoning so so each of the properties that are considered 00:34:38.854 --> 00:34:45.131 - on this list would require some type of rezoning that usually is going to take between three and six 00:34:45.131 --> 00:34:52.030 - months to do from beginning to end now. The good thing is, I mean the good thing is that that process can run. 00:34:52.162 --> 00:34:58.484 - sort of parallel with some other processes. When we're talking about historic designation or rezoning 00:34:58.484 --> 00:35:04.806 - and potential, as we're getting closer to site plan approvals and things like that, some of those can 00:35:04.806 --> 00:35:11.128 - kind of run in conjunction to each other to shorten that ultimate timeline. So what would normally be 00:35:11.128 --> 00:35:16.830 - potentially and conservatively a 12-month, and I think you see this listed here, a 12-month 00:35:17.090 --> 00:35:23.503 - Timeline for full approvals. I think can be shortened quite a bit. It does take a lot of coordination 00:35:23.503 --> 00:35:30.167 - It takes some some some heightened coordination, but it's very possible Regardless the the process you're 00:35:30.167 --> 00:35:36.768 - gonna have to go through for the rezoning is go before the Board of Zoning Appeals Site plan goes before 00:35:36.768 --> 00:35:40.414 - the Plan Commission all of these require there to be some 00:35:40.674 --> 00:35:46.482 - documents like construction documents that are ready to go so that they can be reviewed by planning 00:35:46.482 --> 00:35:52.871 - staff, that they can have comments back and forth and then get submitted to the planning, the plan commission 00:35:52.871 --> 00:35:58.679 - and the BZA as appropriate, plus public notice of hearings, which are usually 21 days in advance at 00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:04.719 - minimum. So there's, when we're talking about that three month timeline, that's really a, it is a tight 00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:09.598 - timeline. It seems like a long time, but for staff, that's a fairly tight timeline. 00:36:09.986 --> 00:36:16.302 - Is it doable? I think so. I think with, it's very helpful to have the mayor here, and certainly with 00:36:16.302 --> 00:36:22.555 - her cooperation, it's doable. But just to understand, that timeline's very knowable because we have 00:36:22.555 --> 00:36:28.870 - some experience with projects. And we know that each of these sites will need some type of rezoning. 00:36:28.870 --> 00:36:35.498 - So thank you. So if I understand, then say we picked a property where there hasn't been any environmental 00:36:35.498 --> 00:36:38.750 - studies, none of those reports have been completed. 00:36:38.946 --> 00:36:44.379 - In order for us to get to zoning, we would have to have some type of design for the property. 00:36:44.379 --> 00:36:50.217 - Is that right? So certainly for site plan approval before you can break ground, you're going to have 00:36:50.217 --> 00:36:55.998 - to have a fairly good plan. For those that need purchasing, so if you're buying from a private, and 00:36:55.998 --> 00:37:01.893 - if I'm saying something that's really obvious and everybody knows this, please stop me in the middle. 00:37:01.893 --> 00:37:05.246 - I'm very sorry. If you're buying from a private property, 00:37:05.346 --> 00:37:11.611 - You know, you're going to talk about the restrictions for governmental purchase, so we're not even talking 00:37:11.611 --> 00:37:17.525 - about the financing necessarily of it. You need to allow for a couple of things to happen again kind 00:37:17.525 --> 00:37:23.732 - of simultaneously. Those would include two independent appraisals of the value of the property if they're 00:37:23.732 --> 00:37:26.718 - held in private hands. Those take roughly 30 days. 00:37:26.850 --> 00:37:33.041 - 45 days is common as well so 30 to 45 days depending on the appraiser to get those reports completed 00:37:33.041 --> 00:37:39.354 - those are necessary by law to complete at that same time you could be negotiating potentially you know 00:37:39.354 --> 00:37:45.483 - non-binding letter of intent that could really inform a very good purchase agreement you could also 00:37:45.483 --> 00:37:52.225 - get permission to run some of the phase one environmentals when you're talking about phase one environmentals 00:37:52.225 --> 00:37:53.022 - when you say 00:37:53.282 --> 00:37:59.425 - Are there environmental on the site? Again, minimum 30 days, it really depends on the season and the 00:37:59.425 --> 00:38:05.689 - environmental consultant. Just to be frank, in a really busy building season, sometimes it can be hard 00:38:05.689 --> 00:38:12.318 - to schedule them, and those can get pushed out to 60 to 90 days just to get your phase ones done. Typically, 00:38:12.318 --> 00:38:18.400 - a phase two is going to be common, particularly when you're talking about a governmental entity and 00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:21.502 - a use that's this important where you're involving 00:38:21.634 --> 00:38:28.095 - So you get to extend that, maybe double it for it. You take phase one is typically done, a phase one 00:38:28.095 --> 00:38:29.630 - environmental analysis. 00:38:29.730 --> 00:38:34.925 - just for some background is done on historic documents largely. There may be some site investigation, 00:38:34.925 --> 00:38:40.121 - but it's fairly limited. So usually what the environmental consultant will do is go out there, see if 00:38:40.121 --> 00:38:45.265 - anything's been recorded, what the historic uses of the site is. You'll get a report. This is what's 00:38:45.265 --> 00:38:50.409 - been on that site. Here's where we see potential problems coming. If there's been any other recorded 00:38:50.409 --> 00:38:53.822 - environmental reports, they'll find those and they'll try to flag. 00:38:54.242 --> 00:39:00.461 - A phase two is where you really get into the investigation of the site itself. So beyond the historic 00:39:00.461 --> 00:39:06.437 - documentation, that's where you're going to get taking core samples and soil samples. That takes, 00:39:06.437 --> 00:39:13.144 - you know, again, doubling that period of time, conservatively, 120 days, potentially just for environmentals. 00:39:13.144 --> 00:39:19.607 - If someone has a different experience recently, please, please let me know. But that's been my experience 00:39:19.607 --> 00:39:22.046 - is that that's about how long it takes. 00:39:22.146 --> 00:39:27.563 - building season, those environmental consultants are at a premium, particularly if you want 00:39:27.563 --> 00:39:33.098 - a good environmental consultant and you potentially have any problems with the site, any kind 00:39:33.098 --> 00:39:39.516 - of contamination whatsoever. There are sites where we do have those. We know that they have them. Typically, 00:39:39.516 --> 00:39:44.286 - if it's been sold or bought recently, you'll have some sort of phase one minimum 00:39:44.610 --> 00:39:51.794 - provided because that can get you what's considered a bona fide purchaser protection under the environmental 00:39:51.794 --> 00:39:58.518 - laws. So it's a baseline. All of this is kind of what you should have done. You should have the phase 00:39:58.518 --> 00:40:05.570 - one, the appraisals, all of that would need to be done before any kind of purchase agreement is solidified 00:40:05.570 --> 00:40:08.734 - and certainly before you close on the property. 00:40:09.730 --> 00:40:14.677 - That process shortens a little bit if you're going government to government because the liabilities 00:40:14.677 --> 00:40:19.674 - are a little bit different and some of that's taken care of. You also can shorten. Sometimes you can 00:40:19.674 --> 00:40:24.671 - only get away with only one. The law only requires one appraisal, for instance, so you don't have to 00:40:24.671 --> 00:40:30.014 - worry about two appraisals. So in terms of that timeline, what we're talking about, I think conservatively, 00:40:30.210 --> 00:40:36.793 - You know, we've said three to six months to get some of the city planning, the rezoning aspects. I think 00:40:36.793 --> 00:40:43.314 - it's probably about the same, probably that three months to four month period to get your due diligence 00:40:43.314 --> 00:40:49.771 - to negotiate an LOI and to get to the point of purchasing if this is owned by any separate entity than 00:40:49.771 --> 00:40:56.229 - the county. Thank you. That was really helpful. I appreciate that. Any other comments before we decide 00:40:56.229 --> 00:40:58.110 - to talk about something else? 00:41:00.930 --> 00:41:10.373 - to suggest that while we're in this preliminary process, we may just come up with a formula for ballparking 00:41:10.373 --> 00:41:19.117 - how long it is to ground break without trying to troubleshoot every detail of every property. We've 00:41:19.117 --> 00:41:26.462 - just heard from Mr. Allen that it's going to take three or four months longer to do 00:41:26.754 --> 00:41:35.775 - any purchase of a private property. We know that the historic review sounds like it can happen 00:41:35.775 --> 00:41:45.461 - contemporaneously with zoning. So that time point wise may not be an issue, et cetera. I think we can 00:41:45.461 --> 00:41:53.342 - come up with an algorithm that works for each. Anybody else have feedback on that? 00:42:00.066 --> 00:42:09.993 - So where do we go now? I would recommend that we come up with a critical path of questions that we need 00:42:09.993 --> 00:42:19.730 - answered before our next meeting, and who's going to get them answered. That's a really good idea. So 00:42:19.730 --> 00:42:28.798 - that we were really strategic in what we're hitting. And so we're down to five properties now. 00:42:29.122 --> 00:42:39.706 - old number two out. So then what areas do we still need help with then? Let's see. Looks like we're 00:42:39.706 --> 00:42:50.396 - down. Constitutional care didn't get much attention from what I can see on the screen for questions. 00:42:50.396 --> 00:42:58.334 - The process for securing utilities will be really important. One page two. 00:42:59.106 --> 00:43:10.752 - 8B. You have to contact the utilities for each of the properties remaining, right? Unless, I mean, I 00:43:10.752 --> 00:43:23.321 - do see that under 8C, it says how long will those steps take, and none of them say longer than construction, 00:43:23.321 --> 00:43:28.510 - with the exception of the Thompson property. 00:43:28.834 --> 00:43:40.507 - necessary if that's the case. Yes, it is necessary because you will encounter some that have 00:43:40.507 --> 00:43:54.942 - major infrastructure lacking. Some will have sewer mains right in front of them, for instance, and water and Duke. 00:43:55.106 --> 00:44:04.232 - others you'll have to put in the preliminary infrastructure before you can even consider tapping. So 00:44:04.232 --> 00:44:13.358 - 8B I think is a worthy question. I think no longer than construction is probably what C will say for 00:44:13.358 --> 00:44:22.575 - everything because that's how long it's going to take. So if we're happy with that answer, I think we 00:44:22.575 --> 00:44:24.382 - could eliminate 8C. 00:44:31.970 --> 00:44:40.572 - I think that's fine. I would like to revisit D1 adequate usable space for 448 beds. I don't think it's 00:44:40.572 --> 00:44:49.089 - our charge to decide what the bed count should be. If we're going to talk about size, let's do square 00:44:49.089 --> 00:44:57.440 - footage. I don't want to get us into a situation where we have more beds than we need. Sorry, where 00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:01.950 - did you get 884? Oh, 448. Okay, great. Did I say 884? 00:45:02.210 --> 00:45:12.571 - I don't know, I could have heard it wrong. Is there something in the lawsuit that says 448 is the number? 00:45:12.571 --> 00:45:21.955 - No, that number was from the Ray Report, which the county commissioned several years ago. Okay. 00:45:21.955 --> 00:45:30.654 - For clarity, that number also comes from two other reports that the county commissioned. 00:45:31.170 --> 00:45:41.893 - most recently I think it's RQF-AW. I'll just say that one way to approach this is that we're not condoning 00:45:41.893 --> 00:45:52.416 - the number of beds but it is an apples to apples way to look at something if we're not discussing design 00:45:52.416 --> 00:46:00.734 - like single story, multi story. Is there a way to get a certain number of beds and 00:46:02.786 --> 00:46:10.135 - I agree, I'm not, I don't have enough information and haven't studied enough to say how many beds are 00:46:10.135 --> 00:46:17.412 - needed. This is not my expertise. I would just suggest we come up with some number. We have a number 00:46:17.412 --> 00:46:24.761 - here and just look at apples to apples. It's not gonna be our job to decide how big the jail is. It's 00:46:24.761 --> 00:46:32.254 - not within our purview. I'm not even sure that needs to be on there because of that, you know? I agree. 00:46:32.674 --> 00:46:40.217 - size for the jail, maybe we just take the square footage of the building, right? That's under B4. It's 00:46:40.217 --> 00:46:47.687 - total estimated usable square footage. Well, it's kind of under that. That's for the land. Right. For 00:46:47.687 --> 00:46:55.011 - the building. That would be, yeah, that'd be maximum, of course. What square footage then would you 00:46:55.011 --> 00:47:01.822 - be proposing that we use? Say that again, I'm sorry? If the idea is to replace the 448 beds, 00:47:02.242 --> 00:47:11.364 - the rubric that's in here. Yeah. What square footage then are you proposing for the jail? Is it what 00:47:11.364 --> 00:47:20.485 - was proposed at the August 29th, 2025 DLZ presentation? We certainly have data on that. We do. Yeah. 00:47:20.485 --> 00:47:29.968 - And come back with some square footage numbers. I know the jail and sheriff's office is currently around 00:47:29.968 --> 00:47:31.774 - 32,000 square feet. 00:47:32.418 --> 00:47:39.712 - Obviously it will need to be bigger than that, but I'm not convinced that the numbers we saw for North 00:47:39.712 --> 00:47:47.006 - Park and the North Park square feet were as big as they needed to be for the charge of what we're here 00:47:47.006 --> 00:47:54.087 - to do. You think the North Park numbers needed to be bigger? No, I think they needed to be smaller. 00:47:54.087 --> 00:48:01.311 - So I guess because that the North Park already included co-location, is that correct? So if we're not 00:48:01.311 --> 00:48:02.302 - doing it all, 00:48:02.434 --> 00:48:09.220 - we're just doing the jail in the sheriff's office, it wouldn't need to be as big as North Park from 00:48:09.220 --> 00:48:16.277 - what I understand. That is correct. One of the factors, and I think picking a site, is what that site's 00:48:16.277 --> 00:48:23.267 - gonna be used for in the future. Whether that be five years, 10 years, 40 years. Right. I would agree. 00:48:23.267 --> 00:48:29.374 - I didn't include the 448 because I was making a judgment on what the bed number would be. 00:48:29.506 --> 00:48:37.763 - I was looking at the Ray report, page 62, that had a finding that a 30 year jail bed capacity estimate 00:48:37.763 --> 00:48:45.859 - indicates that Monroe County needs 448 to 450 jail beds by the year 2049. So if the site is going to 00:48:45.859 --> 00:48:51.230 - have the longevity to be able to have space for the next 30 years, 00:48:52.674 --> 00:49:01.017 - I think that's the number we need to make sure there's enough adequate square footage for, not the size 00:49:01.017 --> 00:49:09.199 - of the current jail, which is too small already. I think everyone agrees that the current jail is too 00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:17.541 - small, but I don't agree with the inevitability that we'll have more and more and more inmates. I think 00:49:17.541 --> 00:49:20.830 - that if we as a community, especially as 00:49:21.186 --> 00:49:29.180 - community leaders are doing our job that number should fall it shouldn't be rising and so how can we 00:49:29.180 --> 00:49:37.570 - as a community reinvest in prevention methods that keep people out of jail because ultimately that should 00:49:37.570 --> 00:49:45.960 - be our goal. I agree that is the that is a goal we should all be working towards and I want to be careful 00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:46.910 - to stick to 00:49:48.258 --> 00:49:57.121 - For my part, stick to the charge that we have, which is to secure viable sites and not to discuss or 00:49:57.121 --> 00:50:05.983 - get into the elements needed in a jail. I think that's worthy discussion. If we want to partner with 00:50:05.983 --> 00:50:14.846 - the county on that in the future, perhaps we can find a path to do that. I would just say our job is 00:50:15.202 --> 00:50:22.808 - evaluating sites and seeing if they are adequate for the jail that is- That we know we have to build. 00:50:22.808 --> 00:50:30.415 - That we have to build. Yes. So what square footage? I guess that's fine if we want to use a different 00:50:30.415 --> 00:50:38.469 - number. We just have to pick a number. So I guess if you want to eliminate the 448, can we use the proposed 00:50:38.469 --> 00:50:43.614 - square footage of the design that was presented on August 29th, 2025 00:50:43.970 --> 00:50:50.456 - for the jail and jail administration as at least a minimum marker. Now the challenge I will tell you 00:50:50.456 --> 00:50:57.006 - is if you are proposing Curry, there are many other departments in Curry. So we're gonna probably get 00:50:57.006 --> 00:51:03.556 - into square footage of other departments as well once we get into discussing that property. But we do 00:51:03.556 --> 00:51:10.234 - need a minimum. And so if you wanna get rid of the 448, I would ask that we use the square footage that 00:51:10.234 --> 00:51:11.454 - has been proposed. 00:51:14.370 --> 00:51:22.287 - Well, I know we have that number from the August 29th report. I know that's available. So we'll just 00:51:22.287 --> 00:51:30.439 - compromise and thank you. So we're just going to put based on before we'll just put based on the August 00:51:30.439 --> 00:51:33.182 - 29th data from that report, right? 00:51:41.858 --> 00:51:52.175 - and we're gonna take out the 448 number, is that correct? Yes. Thank you. All right, so. I'm back up 00:51:52.175 --> 00:52:02.695 - into the screening questions where it talks about the site meets the requirement of the constitutional 00:52:02.695 --> 00:52:11.582 - care. What answers do we, what questions do we need answered to best be able to answer 00:52:11.778 --> 00:52:18.692 - that screening question. Can you tell us what you were thinking April when you asked? I'm happy to share. 00:52:18.692 --> 00:52:25.410 - So one of the places I think we can look is the Kenray study and another place is the ACLU letter from 00:52:25.410 --> 00:52:31.933 - December 29th of 2025. I shared that a couple meetings back. If possible, if we could put that ACLU 00:52:31.933 --> 00:52:38.456 - letter on our subcommittee website so that the community has access to it. There are several things 00:52:38.456 --> 00:52:40.478 - that are listed in the letter. 00:52:40.674 --> 00:52:47.692 - And in addition, I would direct the committee's attention to the RAISE study when you have an opportunity. 00:52:47.692 --> 00:52:54.251 - In particular, if we could look at facility assessment, which starts on page 84. And throughout the 00:52:54.251 --> 00:53:00.875 - pages that follow, if you look on page 85, it gets into several different things that are 53 problem 00:53:00.875 --> 00:53:07.827 - areas related to safety and security, health, compliance with industry standards, structural and systems, 00:53:07.827 --> 00:53:09.598 - operational effectiveness, 00:53:09.698 --> 00:53:16.685 - inmate care and custody and environmental conditions. So that's, I think, a great place as we're evaluating 00:53:16.685 --> 00:53:23.219 - sites, those subsequent pages. I think that'll come out in discussion, but one of the most important 00:53:23.219 --> 00:53:29.689 - aspects is space, which I think comes back to our square footage issue. Maybe a question I have is, 00:53:29.689 --> 00:53:36.159 - would the North Park section that was just the jail and the sheriff's office, would it have met the 00:53:36.159 --> 00:53:39.070 - constitutional care requirement, do we know? 00:53:40.162 --> 00:53:46.347 - Well, I think it would have addressed several of the issues, like we have inadequate counseling areas, 00:53:46.347 --> 00:53:52.532 - inadequate housing, inadequate housing for segregation. I could go through the list, but I think space 00:53:52.532 --> 00:53:58.657 - is one of the most difficult pieces. As I remember, it probably met that criteria, right? No, I can't 00:53:58.657 --> 00:54:05.263 - speak to every single one, but I would say we'd have an improvement in several. It looks like Ms. Turner-King 00:54:05.263 --> 00:54:09.406 - had some. Oh, sorry, I'm ignoring you. It's okay. So if you use the, 00:54:09.762 --> 00:54:17.315 - square footage from the August 29th 2025 meeting, that blueprint was based on a design that remedies 00:54:17.315 --> 00:54:25.017 - these constitutional conditions. And so in essence, if you're using that square footage, then it would 00:54:25.017 --> 00:54:28.606 - meet constitutional care. Thank you. Thank you. 00:54:40.930 --> 00:54:51.528 - So then, is there anything else on the second page of these questions that needs some more discussion 00:54:51.528 --> 00:55:02.333 - or more help trying to figure out, get what we need? Question seven, additional costs. This B7, uh-huh. 00:55:02.333 --> 00:55:09.502 - Oh, I'm so sorry, B7. So there's some of those have answers in them. 00:55:11.618 --> 00:55:18.209 - The renovations of the current building with Curry. So it says to be determined, right? Yes, so for 00:55:18.209 --> 00:55:24.997 - those who don't work in the Curry or the Curry-Fiscus building, as Ms. Renbeck was sharing, the Fiscus 00:55:24.997 --> 00:55:31.588 - building has the public defender's office, which has several employees. And then the Curry building 00:55:31.588 --> 00:55:38.838 - has several different departments, and it actually has our magistrate as well as the part of the prosecutor's 00:55:38.838 --> 00:55:41.342 - office that deals with child support. 00:55:41.602 --> 00:55:48.116 - And so if this were to be considered, you're going to have to move everyone in that building. So that's 00:55:48.116 --> 00:55:54.128 - why it would be helpful to understand what the proposal would be for that space as an extension 00:55:54.128 --> 00:56:00.391 - or replacement to be able to start looking at numbers for our next meeting. That's why I was hoping 00:56:00.391 --> 00:56:06.717 - to better understand, is it going to be an extension of the jail? Are all the administrative offices 00:56:06.717 --> 00:56:09.598 - going to fit on the Curry Fiscus? Or footage? 00:56:10.018 --> 00:56:21.023 - I wasn't sure what the proposal was. So do we need any additional help then on the seven question? I 00:56:21.023 --> 00:56:32.464 - don't know if there are additional costs without knowing the proposal. I think because we're not putting 00:56:32.464 --> 00:56:37.694 - dollar values to these additional costs anyway, 00:56:37.890 --> 00:56:49.479 - we can just list relocation or co-location of existing departments. Let's take the easy path out of 00:56:49.479 --> 00:57:00.951 - that. I mean, we don't have bids on the roadways either, so. No bids, right. Does that make sense? 00:57:00.951 --> 00:57:06.398 - All right. So then moving down the line there, 00:57:07.106 --> 00:57:14.284 - about the process for securing utilities already. Who is doing that? I think we were relying on historic 00:57:14.284 --> 00:57:21.598 - information. So based on what we already knew about the sites, just generally, Mary, you made an excellent 00:57:21.598 --> 00:57:28.433 - point earlier though, in terms of the utilities that we do need a little bit more information. So I 00:57:28.433 --> 00:57:34.654 - think it's gonna be wise of us to reach out to both the CBU and Duke to try to get a sense 00:57:34.754 --> 00:57:41.439 - In some cases, where you've seen a longer timeline, that's because of Duke. With CBU, it's a little 00:57:41.439 --> 00:57:48.124 - bit harder because that's more of a flow and capacity issue that we know when we open up the ground 00:57:48.124 --> 00:57:55.077 - to have a conversation with them that we're going to be using that site. Yes, I think flow and capacity 00:57:55.077 --> 00:58:01.762 - are being consistently evaluated as developments come up and we have some development room. I think 00:58:01.762 --> 00:58:03.166 - if we just answered, 00:58:03.650 --> 00:58:14.278 - you know, is there a main there? How far away is it? We can do that means Larry's doing that, or? 00:58:14.278 --> 00:58:25.340 - I think so. Okay. I hear a volunteer, Mr. Allen. Ms. Turner King is going on vacation, I believe this 00:58:25.340 --> 00:58:28.702 - Wednesday, so. That's correct. 00:58:32.066 --> 00:58:44.927 - been an amount here. All right. So then are we on the next page then? Let's see. The answer 00:58:44.927 --> 00:58:59.326 - on the geotechnical and environmental studies, whether or not they've been completed would be helpful. 00:59:01.154 --> 00:59:10.095 - And what number and letter is that? Where are you at now? Oh, I'm sorry. E1. E1. That would be on the 00:59:10.095 --> 00:59:19.037 - next page. It's on page four. Yep. E1. The bottom. Yep. It's like the renovations of current building 00:59:19.037 --> 00:59:27.803 - with Curry is unknown, as well as the two Hopewell locations and... Sorry, looking at my other side 00:59:27.803 --> 00:59:31.134 - of my sheet. It looks like the two... 00:59:32.002 --> 00:59:38.675 - for Fullerton and North Park are completed. So we just need some information on whether or 00:59:38.675 --> 00:59:46.155 - not the geotechnical and environmental studies have been completed for the renovations of the current 00:59:46.155 --> 00:59:53.488 - building with Curry and then Hopewell, West and East. Oh, not Hopewell, West and East. I just can't 00:59:53.488 --> 00:59:59.134 - read. Okay. I believe the tap road locations though do need an answer there. 01:00:01.858 --> 01:00:20.078 - Is that along with Thompson? And is that something feasible to think that Larry could help us with or 01:00:20.078 --> 01:00:30.974 - not? I think there's some estimates, you know, based on like 01:00:31.138 --> 01:00:36.284 - For Thompson, for Hopewell, the geotechnical does exist. I think you may have just said that, that you 01:00:36.284 --> 01:00:41.630 - saw that on the list, yeah. For the Currie building, because you have a current building on there, I mean, 01:00:41.954 --> 01:00:47.320 - likely you're not going to need a lot more geotechnical, it depends on how high you're building and 01:00:47.320 --> 01:00:53.116 - what that structure is and what weight. But I do think it's probably fair to assume that that will support, 01:00:53.116 --> 01:00:58.643 - you know, a building being that you have a relatively large structures adjacent to it, which would not 01:00:58.643 --> 01:01:03.902 - be able to stay if you didn't have at least some adequate geotechnical abilities, i.e. you have a 01:01:04.098 --> 01:01:09.608 - fairly large parking garage in the jail itself that are adjacent to it. So if nothing else, I don't 01:01:09.608 --> 01:01:15.118 - think there's gonna be anything that would be shocking on that particular site. So I think we could 01:01:15.118 --> 01:01:20.627 - mark, although it's marked as an unknown, I don't think it's as much of an unknown as they, the tap 01:01:20.627 --> 01:01:26.413 - road area is probably more of an unknown because we have not done any of that due diligence and we don't 01:01:26.413 --> 01:01:28.286 - know how much the owner has done. 01:01:29.858 --> 01:01:38.390 - And we ask that the ones that you think maybe more than just unknown be amended here so that we get 01:01:38.390 --> 01:01:47.006 - that information on our metrics. We can amend those in that information. Thank you. All right. Those 01:01:47.006 --> 01:01:48.798 - are all my comments. 01:02:00.898 --> 01:02:29.790 - here. Mr. Allen. 01:02:32.418 --> 01:02:40.627 - Sorry. Would it be possible on the very last section, question eight, will the site require additional 01:02:40.627 --> 01:02:48.597 - preparation? For the yes, is there any extra notation for renovations of Curry Building with Curry? 01:02:48.597 --> 01:02:54.654 - I see the other ones have a bit of a note, but I wasn't sure on the square. 01:03:05.506 --> 01:03:11.148 - Can I repeat the question to make sure I understand what it is? Just what is the additional site preparation 01:03:11.148 --> 01:03:16.532 - when there is a yes mark for the Curry building specifically? Would it be okay if we added that between 01:03:16.532 --> 01:03:21.812 - now and the next meeting? Would that be all right? Yeah, I think not only is it okay, I think so part 01:03:21.812 --> 01:03:27.143 - of those, anytime there's a structure standing, when you talk about additional site preparation, large 01:03:27.143 --> 01:03:32.734 - part that's gonna involve also demolition. So that site preparation is gonna involve demolition at least of 01:03:33.154 --> 01:03:40.729 - One or part of those buildings in addition to foundation those kind of things are additional site preparation 01:03:40.729 --> 01:03:47.684 - as we go across And we talk about you know, hope well has very specific Infrastructure needs that we 01:03:47.684 --> 01:03:54.845 - know about because the city has done that work has plotted out Understand that's a long shot And that's 01:03:54.845 --> 01:03:59.390 - very similarly, you know, there's you know tap road where it says 01:03:59.682 --> 01:04:07.202 - grade changes but also when we're talking about is all road infrastructure any place that does not currently 01:04:07.202 --> 01:04:14.378 - uh at a crossroads or immediate access is all going to have to road construction of some kind so that's 01:04:14.378 --> 01:04:21.416 - site preparation the other site preparation that could could occur on the remote sites is any kind of 01:04:21.416 --> 01:04:28.798 - grading soil remediation that kind of thing point of clarification what is the difference between um seven 01:04:29.442 --> 01:04:40.929 - and seven question does site have additional costs and eight will the site require additional preparation. 01:04:40.929 --> 01:04:51.020 - I think we should combine those two unless it was intended to be differentiation if there was 01:04:51.020 --> 01:04:55.422 - some differentiation let's spell it out. 01:05:02.274 --> 01:05:10.635 - I think sometimes there was just a road would be needed, but you could call that development too. We 01:05:10.635 --> 01:05:19.161 - could put in the same. Yeah, I think that's good. Combining seven and eight. Yeah. And then I'm trying 01:05:19.161 --> 01:05:27.439 - to figure out what the difference is between six and seven. And that's B, it's B seven and B eight, 01:05:27.439 --> 01:05:28.350 - I believe. 01:05:29.634 --> 01:05:38.233 - Yeah, B7 and E8. Oh, B7. There we go. Thank you. I was looking at the wrong seven for bingo cards. 01:05:38.233 --> 01:05:42.142 - All right. Yes, thank you. I'm with you now. 01:06:03.458 --> 01:06:12.658 - need to go over here or still down to the five properties right right I think we have five properties 01:06:12.658 --> 01:06:21.858 - and we have determined the most critical things to fill in before our next meeting I would suggest we 01:06:21.858 --> 01:06:30.968 - spend a few minutes determining how we're going to conduct this next meeting so that we can actually 01:06:30.968 --> 01:06:32.862 - process through some 01:06:35.522 --> 01:06:45.470 - I know we have executive committee, then we have, it'll be our last meeting where we really have discussion 01:06:45.470 --> 01:06:55.049 - before public comment and then we're making a decision. We'll have the executive public comment, right? 01:06:55.049 --> 01:07:02.878 - Next time. So what else do we need to add to that agenda besides those three things? 01:07:05.282 --> 01:07:13.495 - The executive committee will be talking about the private properties, right? I heard some feedback last 01:07:13.495 --> 01:07:21.551 - week about how we maybe should wait some of the criterion. We could have that conversation now. Okay. 01:07:21.551 --> 01:07:29.527 - Just really quickly, we also have a request just for the audience and everybody who's watching. Just 01:07:29.527 --> 01:07:33.950 - because we have gone back and forth between properties, 01:07:34.114 --> 01:07:40.829 - Could the chair somebody read out loud the five properties that are still in contention and what we're 01:07:40.829 --> 01:07:47.675 - specifically talking about To narrow it down so that everybody's clear. Thank you. Sorry council members 01:07:47.675 --> 01:07:54.195 - like I think these could be done together, but I Can read so I have I'm wrong you tell me okay, I'm 01:07:54.195 --> 01:07:59.998 - counting on the committee for this I have renovations of current building with curry and 01:08:04.610 --> 01:08:17.412 - north I have tap road south I have Thompson and I have Fullerton okay thank you that okay with a note 01:08:17.412 --> 01:08:30.340 - that I believe we put Hopewell West and East in half gray in case we have to return but it is unlikely 01:08:30.340 --> 01:08:33.854 - right HT I think we did the 01:08:34.274 --> 01:08:42.553 - the same thing for each t yeah the ht is dependent on the future property owner or potential future 01:08:42.553 --> 01:08:51.163 - property owner all right so we've got the five properties identified remaining in our work you all mind 01:08:51.163 --> 01:08:56.958 - if i restate i i'm very sorry this is more for my notes at this point 01:08:57.058 --> 01:09:04.753 - If that's okay, I don't mean to delay you further. Go right ahead. So the five properties in main contention, 01:09:04.753 --> 01:09:11.889 - which are not grayed out whatsoever, that we're considering is the Curry building with renovations to 01:09:11.889 --> 01:09:19.094 - the current site. The second one is Tap Road North. The third one is Tap Road South. The fourth is the 01:09:19.094 --> 01:09:25.950 - Thompson property. And then the fifth is the Fullerton property. And then as property alternates, 01:09:26.178 --> 01:09:33.748 - for consideration, if none of those work out or we need more information, those include potentially 01:09:33.748 --> 01:09:41.544 - Hopewell West, Hopewell East, the HT building, and then potentially private lot one, depending on what 01:09:41.544 --> 01:09:49.417 - happens in executive session. Is that correct? Yes. Thank you very much. That's what I have. To council 01:09:49.417 --> 01:09:54.110 - members Zulik's point, I would suggest that we try to develop 01:09:56.642 --> 01:10:06.697 - as uncomplicated as possible, weighted rubric, which also highlights any criteria that could possibly 01:10:06.697 --> 01:10:17.048 - disqualify a site immediately. And the ability to score those, I would feel most comfortable not scoring 01:10:17.048 --> 01:10:24.638 - them until, or waiting on the scoring until we hear the full public comment. 01:10:25.090 --> 01:10:39.323 - But perhaps we could come up with a formula and agree upon that at the next meeting. Do that first and 01:10:39.323 --> 01:10:47.614 - then discuss any new information that we have on the sites. 01:10:51.426 --> 01:10:59.504 - We could do a 3-2-1 system, where it's three points for any piece of criteria that directly relates 01:10:59.504 --> 01:11:07.743 - to the unconstitutionality of the jail. Two could be anything adjacent, and then one could be that we 01:11:07.743 --> 01:11:15.982 - have as a community, but not necessarily related to the constitutionality of care with jail. That way 01:11:15.982 --> 01:11:20.990 - we can add weight to things that aren't necessarily required. 01:11:21.730 --> 01:11:29.238 - So you're saying the numbers you would use to add to the points of value would be three, two, and one? 01:11:29.238 --> 01:11:36.601 - So you're saying that those things have different values, right? Yes, and so ultimately we could add 01:11:36.601 --> 01:11:43.891 - up the points for each property at the end. I get that part, but I don't understand how you've come 01:11:43.891 --> 01:11:47.390 - up with the weighted system for the categories. 01:11:48.258 --> 01:11:57.163 - I get the categories, but I don't know why that is three. I don't know why two is two. Why are the categories 01:11:57.163 --> 01:12:05.420 - weighted the way they are? That's my question. I think the weighting system is a great idea, and it's 01:12:05.420 --> 01:12:13.838 - one that at DLC actually used if you go back to the first packet. Challenge, though, is we're all going 01:12:13.838 --> 01:12:17.886 - to come at that at different perspectives, right? 01:12:19.906 --> 01:12:26.326 - We might spend a lot of time debating a three or a two when we're under such close constraints and we 01:12:26.326 --> 01:12:32.746 - need to figure out the information for each site and from our individual perspectives, you know, take 01:12:32.746 --> 01:12:39.041 - a vote from that. I think it's just, I don't think we're going to agree in the next two meetings on 01:12:39.041 --> 01:12:45.461 - which one's a three and which one's a two. But I do want to give voice to our individual concerns and 01:12:45.461 --> 01:12:48.734 - maybe we do that when we talk about the properties. 01:12:50.626 --> 01:13:02.107 - That's also fine with me. So we would have a waiting system or not? No, okay. Always only. Yeah, okay. 01:13:02.107 --> 01:13:14.146 - All right. Yeah. Thank you. All right. So by the next meeting, we would have a mostly complete spreadsheet, 01:13:14.146 --> 01:13:18.270 - primarily looking at five properties 01:13:21.826 --> 01:13:29.003 - And we shift the five over to the left. So that would be great. Yeah. So can we shift the five remaining 01:13:29.003 --> 01:13:36.111 - over to the left so that we can have all the ones we're working with viable at this point in one little 01:13:36.111 --> 01:13:43.152 - section of the whole chart here rather than having them all mixed up. I'd like to see that fine tuned. 01:13:43.152 --> 01:13:50.123 - Does that make sense? Did you hear that, Larry? I imagine you're going to be the one since Ms. Turner 01:13:50.123 --> 01:13:51.422 - King will be gone. 01:13:51.746 --> 01:13:59.376 - right now so to move all the properties in main contention to the left. All the remaining viable properties 01:13:59.376 --> 01:14:06.795 - to the left so that it's great out to the right of those. Yes, and even the potential alternative. Maybe 01:14:06.795 --> 01:14:13.860 - there should be three different sections, right? Maybe a current very viable, maybe alternative and 01:14:13.860 --> 01:14:21.278 - then the gray area, right? Different color designation. Yeah, that would be great. Does that make sense? 01:14:21.570 --> 01:14:31.032 - then we've got our categories of properties. All right. And what else? So the next meeting, we will 01:14:31.032 --> 01:14:40.684 - have an executive session and talk about the private properties. Talked about maybe talking about the 01:14:40.684 --> 01:14:50.430 - meeting agenda for the regular session. Do we wanna confer on that now? What would the regular session 01:14:50.754 --> 01:14:58.685 - agenda look like? It wasn't complicated this time because we were going over the site evaluations. Is 01:14:58.685 --> 01:15:06.771 - that still what that should be or should it be something different? I believe we'll still be doing site 01:15:06.771 --> 01:15:14.624 - evaluations. Anything in addition to that? I'd like to start talking about the property. All of that 01:15:14.624 --> 01:15:19.134 - on that Monday. Following Monday? After a public comment? 01:15:20.322 --> 01:15:27.022 - I know we're going to vote on Monday. I just wasn't sure if like to start talking about individual properties 01:15:27.022 --> 01:15:33.112 - on Thursday or wait. So would that come after public comment, you think? Thinking site evaluations, 01:15:33.112 --> 01:15:39.264 - start discussing properties and then open it to public. Okay. That would require a very quick moving 01:15:39.264 --> 01:15:45.415 - meeting. Say that again, I'm sorry. That will require a very quick moving meeting because we will be 01:15:45.415 --> 01:15:49.374 - starting public comment at seven. Exactly. That's exactly right. 01:15:50.690 --> 01:15:59.974 - I would suggest that we all come prepared with some comments about the properties. I would value hearing 01:15:59.974 --> 01:16:08.374 - from this subcommittee what their main concerns and priorities are with each of the properties 01:16:08.374 --> 01:16:16.862 - and considering those over next weekend along with the public comment that we're going to hear. 01:16:16.962 --> 01:16:24.438 - And I think that could advance our process for getting to a vote in the final meeting. But some concise. 01:16:24.438 --> 01:16:31.630 - Yeah, I think now that we're down to five, it's probably going to be somewhat manageable, right? And 01:16:31.630 --> 01:16:38.750 - then trying to keep however many there were to begin with all. Trying to figure out where you're at 01:16:38.750 --> 01:16:44.446 - with them all. Leave shortly. Is there anything else that anyone needs from me? 01:16:44.674 --> 01:16:52.040 - Well, we have a corn even if you leave. So is anyone else need to leave or is it just Sydney? Okay. 01:16:52.040 --> 01:16:59.480 - Couple minutes, but just there. Okay. So what else before we finish our work for tonight? It wrapped 01:16:59.480 --> 01:17:06.993 - up a little quicker than I thought. I must tell you this part of it. So I'm happy with where we're at 01:17:06.993 --> 01:17:11.486 - time wise tonight. I thought it was going to go on way long. 01:17:13.954 --> 01:17:23.394 - Anybody else have anything before we call this session adjourned? Any legal comments or suggestions? 01:17:23.394 --> 01:17:29.470 - I think I'm going to call the meeting adjourned then. Thank you.