WEBVTT 00:00:00.482 --> 00:00:09.459 - So good evening. My name is Liz final. I'm the chair of this collaborative justice project 00:00:09.459 --> 00:00:20.014 - working subcommittee. And I'd like to call this meeting to order on Thursday, July 9th at six oh five p.m. 00:00:20.014 --> 00:00:30.174 - So with me tonight on the DS is count City Councilor Sydney's leak prosecutors office April Wilson and 00:00:31.746 --> 00:00:39.790 - I always forget where you're from. Public Defender's Office, Karen Renbeck and our mayor of Bloomington, 00:00:39.790 --> 00:00:47.758 - Carrie Thompson. So welcome and we shall begin. So let's adoption of the agenda. So do we have a motion 00:00:47.758 --> 00:00:56.109 - to adopt or to amend or what are we going to do with the agenda? I move adoption of the agenda as presented. 00:00:56.109 --> 00:00:59.710 - I actually have a move to amend. So I present. 00:01:00.930 --> 00:01:09.664 - So in terms of moving to amend, I'd like to add two items for consideration. Where would that be? Could 00:01:09.664 --> 00:01:18.061 - do it at the top of the agenda is what I would suggest. One, I wanted to talk about the possibility 00:01:18.061 --> 00:01:26.711 - of extending the subcommittee by specifically, I'm not aware of a time in which the County Council has 00:01:26.711 --> 00:01:30.910 - requested that we make a presentation. They have. 00:01:32.194 --> 00:01:39.285 - We were due to have it all done by the 13th. Well, my understanding of the resolution is they set a 00:01:39.285 --> 00:01:47.014 - month. I wasn't aware of being added to the county council's agenda for next Tuesday to make a presentation. 00:01:47.014 --> 00:01:54.246 - Have we added to the agenda on the 14th? I have not seen the agenda. Do you know about the agenda for 00:01:54.246 --> 00:02:02.046 - next Tuesday, include the presentation from this committee? It would come under like a department head. Okay. 00:02:03.106 --> 00:02:11.234 - anything, but the resolution said on or before July 13th. In terms of a presentation date, Chair Fiddle, 00:02:11.234 --> 00:02:19.517 - have you been made aware of a presentation date? I haven't. I don't think I have, have you? No. I believe, 00:02:19.517 --> 00:02:27.413 - my understanding was that once a decision, you guys came up with a recommendation, then we were going 00:02:27.413 --> 00:02:30.974 - to work on a date of a collaboration with the 00:02:31.458 --> 00:02:38.750 - the city and the count account. So I understand. Yeah, I have the large group. Because you're going 00:02:38.750 --> 00:02:46.188 - to present it to the large group. So even if we reach a decision on Monday, we won't be presenting it 00:02:46.188 --> 00:02:53.990 - to the large group. We don't have a date for when we're presenting it to the large group. Is that correct? 00:02:53.990 --> 00:02:59.678 - That is correct because I was instructed not to do that until Monday and then 00:03:00.450 --> 00:03:07.196 - to set a group date after that? I'd like to help facilitate both of those things. One, we've received 00:03:07.196 --> 00:03:14.140 - a lot of information. I did get some feedback that there's a feeling we need to make a decision quickly. 00:03:14.140 --> 00:03:21.084 - I think time is really important and that we need to make a decision. So I thought a two-week additional 00:03:21.084 --> 00:03:27.962 - time to review the information we received and follow up on any outstanding questions would really only 00:03:27.962 --> 00:03:29.086 - add one meeting. 00:03:29.218 --> 00:03:36.142 - So what I would propose is instead of meeting on Monday at noon, we meet on Thursday at noon and the 00:03:36.142 --> 00:03:43.682 - next Thursday, essentially breaking that one meeting up into two meetings and then presenting our conclusions 00:03:43.682 --> 00:03:50.743 - at the July 28th County Council meeting. But if it needs to be a different day, that's fine. I thought 00:03:50.743 --> 00:03:57.804 - it'd give us time to review all of the things we have received. We would need to confirm that with the 00:03:57.804 --> 00:03:59.038 - Council President 00:03:59.170 --> 00:04:07.462 - with regards to. I don't feel like it's my purview or actually this committee's purview to change what 00:04:07.462 --> 00:04:15.674 - it was we were charged to do. I don't know how we would do that. As a point of order, I think that we 00:04:15.674 --> 00:04:23.966 - are discussing an amendment to the agenda, but we're really, we have moved on to discussing that item. 00:04:23.966 --> 00:04:29.118 - I will just say no matter where we go with that point of order, 00:04:29.698 --> 00:04:37.262 - Those following two Thursdays, I am unavailable. I also would agree. We agreed to lay out our work and 00:04:37.262 --> 00:04:44.679 - complete it by Monday, at least with a recommendation. I would say even if that recommendation comes 00:04:44.679 --> 00:04:52.022 - with stipulations for further work, I would like to fulfill that commitment. Yeah, that's when that 00:04:52.022 --> 00:04:58.558 - should occur, I think, at that session. We could ask for it then, I think. That's right. 00:05:00.066 --> 00:05:05.913 - And if I get voted down, I get voted down. I just wanted to move to amend to add it to the agenda. So 00:05:05.913 --> 00:05:11.818 - and then the second item. You're making a motion. Yes, I am. And I have one more after that. The first 00:05:11.818 --> 00:05:17.838 - one is to extend extend the subcommittee by two weeks, right? And the second part is let's vote on that. 00:05:17.838 --> 00:05:23.169 - Sorry, let's vote on that one first. All right. Second. Who will second that motion? Anyone? 00:05:23.169 --> 00:05:26.494 - Sorry to clarify. It's just a motion to amend the agenda. 00:05:26.850 --> 00:05:33.513 - to add that, correct? Although the substantive discussion has largely occurred. It is a motion to amend 00:05:33.513 --> 00:05:40.048 - the agenda. It needs a second and then a vote. If there's a second agenda item, it's just going to be 00:05:40.048 --> 00:05:46.519 - more efficient to name that second agenda item to add both of them to the agenda at once, or you can 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:52.862 - do one at a time if you'd like. Well, my thinking, sorry, but my thinking was if they had the one, 00:05:53.922 --> 00:06:00.677 - And not everybody wanted to do the first one and then they had the second one and you know that kind 00:06:00.677 --> 00:06:07.433 - of break up. Yeah. So that was my thinking. Sorry. So the first motion again is what would somebody. 00:06:07.433 --> 00:06:14.255 - So the motion is to amend the agenda to consider to talk about extension of the timeline amongst this 00:06:14.255 --> 00:06:20.944 - group to add that to the agenda. That's the motion on the table. Is there a second for that motion. 00:06:20.944 --> 00:06:22.014 - I would second. 00:06:22.690 --> 00:06:30.964 - All those in favor? Aye. Opposed? Nay. And so do we need the second one then? It's a different motion 00:06:30.964 --> 00:06:39.158 - to amend, so I'd like to be able to. Yes, okay. I'd like to move to amend the agenda that we include 00:06:39.158 --> 00:06:47.594 - discussion of how the voting procedures will be conducted for our final vote. So if it sounds like it's 00:06:47.594 --> 00:06:51.326 - on Monday, there's five of us currently here. 00:06:51.618 --> 00:06:57.561 - Is it going to be a majority? What happens if we have a tie? What happens if we have what, I'm sorry? 00:06:57.561 --> 00:07:03.445 - If we have a tie or if we have a split, I thought it might, I received some feedback about what that 00:07:03.445 --> 00:07:09.330 - process would be. I don't know the answer to it and I think it's a good question. So I'd like to add 00:07:09.330 --> 00:07:15.156 - it to the agenda to, about what that process looks like. We're voting on our decision, right? We're 00:07:15.156 --> 00:07:19.934 - gonna do Monday, so. Second. There's a motion and you second it? You did? Sidney. 00:07:21.410 --> 00:07:28.509 - All right, all those in favor to figure out the voting process and how that might break out for Monday's 00:07:28.509 --> 00:07:35.406 - meeting, say aye. Aye. Opposed? We passed that one. Just to clarify, sorry, are we moving that to the 00:07:35.406 --> 00:07:42.167 - top of the agenda as well? Is that what's said? I don't know. We can talk about where it's going to 00:07:42.167 --> 00:07:45.886 - occur. I'm indifferent, but I'd like to talk about it. 00:07:46.466 --> 00:07:54.193 - Since it deals with the next meeting, can we maybe do it at the end? Would that be all right? It seems 00:07:54.193 --> 00:08:01.769 - like we could wrap up and then talk about what we're going to do next time. Does that work? Okay. So 00:08:01.769 --> 00:08:09.496 - we're going to put it after 4A. So let's make that 4B maybe. Will that work? All right. All right. Now 00:08:09.496 --> 00:08:15.422 - we can adopt the agenda. No? Is there a motion to adopt the agenda as amended? 00:08:18.530 --> 00:08:28.310 - All in favor of adopting the agenda as amended? Aye. Opposed? Okay. We now have an agenda, amended agenda. 00:08:28.310 --> 00:08:38.090 - All right. So we're now down to the site evaluations and we all have materials up here that were presented 00:08:38.090 --> 00:08:45.950 - for the latest version of everything. So we have five sites left as I remember and C. 00:08:46.562 --> 00:08:54.972 - The renovations of the current building with Curry, the Tap Road North site, the Tap Road South site, 00:08:54.972 --> 00:09:03.383 - the Thompson site, and Fullerton. So what is it that we need to discuss about these sites and further 00:09:03.383 --> 00:09:11.710 - discussion that we need to discuss about any of them? I do have some questions if I could start. And 00:09:11.710 --> 00:09:15.998 - looking at the five properties that were remaining, 00:09:16.610 --> 00:09:22.583 - Mr. Allen, if you could help me with some of them. Looking specifically at the Tap Road North property, 00:09:22.583 --> 00:09:28.499 - it lists is the property in a floodway and it says yes, partially. Could you tell me a little bit more 00:09:28.499 --> 00:09:34.415 - about that? Yeah, there's a floodway that essentially runs along Weimar Road. This property's not very 00:09:34.415 --> 00:09:40.331 - affected by that floodway, but it does cross the boundary line. That's why it's on there as partially. 00:09:40.331 --> 00:09:44.926 - To the extent that the boundary line comes close to Weimar Road, there's just a 00:09:45.442 --> 00:09:53.307 - a small low-lying area, and by small I mean under half an acre even. It's not even substantial enough 00:09:53.307 --> 00:10:01.480 - to honestly evolve on the construction of any site. Thank you. Also under renovations of current building 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:09.421 - with Curry, same under B, site profile. Question three, total square footage is blank. I was wondering 00:10:09.421 --> 00:10:13.662 - if we could get that number before we take the vote on 00:10:15.170 --> 00:10:23.065 - So if you look in, there's a supplemental kind of summary sheet for properties that we have. There were 00:10:23.065 --> 00:10:30.657 - three parcels that were considered under that is my understanding from the last time. That includes 00:10:30.657 --> 00:10:33.086 - the current justice center, the 00:10:33.218 --> 00:10:39.352 - Fiscus building and the Curry building. And we didn't do square footage on those buildings, so we can 00:10:39.352 --> 00:10:45.786 - get that square footage number for you for sure. In terms of acreage, when considering those three parcels 00:10:45.786 --> 00:10:47.710 - together, it's a .82 acre site. 00:10:47.810 --> 00:10:53.249 - That does not include the parking garage, so that very explicitly excludes the county's parking garage, 00:10:53.249 --> 00:10:58.531 - but that's how big that site is. So in terms of the apples to apples comparison for acreage and what 00:10:58.531 --> 00:11:03.761 - we've been talking about, that's that apples to apples comparison, but we can certainly get you the 00:11:03.761 --> 00:11:09.147 - square footage of the current buildings as they exist, understanding that any kind of expansion likely 00:11:09.147 --> 00:11:11.710 - into the Curry and Fiscus building would require 00:11:11.874 --> 00:11:18.699 - either partial or entire demolition and reconstruction that would significantly change the square footage. 00:11:18.699 --> 00:11:25.268 - And for that Curry site, can you help me understand? So that's in downtown, right? How many floors can 00:11:25.268 --> 00:11:31.710 - we build up on parcel? Yeah, let me, I'll get that. I'm very sorry. You had asked that earlier and I 00:11:31.710 --> 00:11:38.216 - didn't provide that for you. So I'll check the zoning code right now and I'll get you a sense of what 00:11:38.216 --> 00:11:41.086 - that footage height is for that zoning area. 00:11:43.874 --> 00:11:51.365 - That's what is it currently in our code. That does not mean that a variance couldn't be passed to make 00:11:51.365 --> 00:11:58.639 - a higher building. So I'll just put that out there. I think it's four stories. That's 100% correct. 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:05.912 - I just didn't know what the exact footage is for those four stories. We are already going through a 00:12:05.912 --> 00:12:12.094 - rezone so that it all can be part of the same zoning package. That variance would be 00:12:13.090 --> 00:12:18.908 - included in the rezone. And I think one of the reasons I was interested in square footage is because 00:12:18.908 --> 00:12:24.669 - we have square footage from that August 29th of the whole justice system. So I was trying to figure 00:12:24.669 --> 00:12:30.487 - out how many floors we could actually go up and will be needed if that is a property for contention. 00:12:30.487 --> 00:12:36.478 - Square footage would be really helpful. I think if the question simply is, would it be possible to meet 00:12:36.478 --> 00:12:40.510 - that square footage requirement using that site? I think it would be. 00:12:41.954 --> 00:12:47.907 - There's no question that some variance would be needed, as the mayor just said, some variance with the 00:12:47.907 --> 00:12:53.917 - rezone would be needed, but it is possible with that configuration of site to meet that square footage. 00:12:53.917 --> 00:12:59.927 - It just would not be one floor, as was stated earlier. Under site profile, B, question six, renovations 00:12:59.927 --> 00:13:06.111 - of current building with Curry. It says, will the site require purchase of additional property and someone 00:13:06.111 --> 00:13:11.486 - put to be determined? I was just wondering if there was additional information there or just 00:13:11.714 --> 00:13:17.086 - a lack of clarity. 00:13:17.186 --> 00:13:22.586 - my county colleagues had filled in. I'm not sure exactly. I haven't had a conversation with them and 00:13:22.586 --> 00:13:28.146 - what they were thinking. If there's other adjacent, that site is relatively contained within the block. 00:13:28.146 --> 00:13:33.493 - So it does not appear that there would be needed any additional purchase of real estate. The issues 00:13:33.493 --> 00:13:38.839 - with that site would likely come in. There are existing platted alleyways. So those are part of the 00:13:38.839 --> 00:13:44.239 - right of way. Those would need to be vacated if they wanted to be made part of the site to make it a 00:13:44.239 --> 00:13:45.950 - unified site. So there are some 00:13:47.138 --> 00:13:57.345 - parts to it like that, but I'm not aware of any immediate adjacent property that was under consideration 00:13:57.345 --> 00:14:07.066 - for purchase. Also, I was guessing that the TBD also relates to the ability to build a single story 00:14:07.066 --> 00:14:12.510 - combined facility. I do think that those combined sites 00:14:12.738 --> 00:14:22.571 - do not work in terms of square footage for a single story combined facility. So if we take that as a 00:14:22.571 --> 00:14:32.794 - non-negotiable, that would eliminate this site. So I think the TBD likely has something to do with that. 00:14:32.794 --> 00:14:42.238 - I do have some more, but I'm happy to let someone else ask questions if they. I have a question. 00:14:42.658 --> 00:14:51.790 - Does the jail being a single story or multi-story have any impact on the constitutionality of care? 00:14:51.790 --> 00:15:00.922 - I don't think it necessarily has to. I think it depends how you do it, of course. The understanding 00:15:00.922 --> 00:15:05.214 - is the current configuration of the jail poses 00:15:05.378 --> 00:15:10.713 - significant concerns on the ability to use the current building as it is. So likely you would 00:15:10.713 --> 00:15:16.389 - need significant renovation. If you were to use that building, for instance, as a multi-story site, 00:15:16.389 --> 00:15:22.519 - you would likely need almost a complete renovation of the interior to kind of update it for modern security 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:27.230 - standards. In terms of a constitutionality of care, that does have more to do with 00:15:27.394 --> 00:15:34.313 - the quality of the building, the size, the number of beds that you're able to hold. Are you overcrowded? 00:15:34.313 --> 00:15:41.562 - Are you putting people in different areas? So there were a litany of things, but I don't think it necessarily 00:15:41.562 --> 00:15:48.416 - precludes meeting a constitutional level of care. Thank you. In that case, I don't think that something 00:15:48.416 --> 00:15:55.005 - not being able to meet a single story requirement should be qualified, enough of a qualification to 00:15:55.005 --> 00:15:57.246 - remove it from our consideration. 00:15:57.570 --> 00:16:06.920 - I see April go again if nobody else has anything. Okay. On de-operational adequacy under renovations 00:16:06.920 --> 00:16:16.271 - of current building with Curry, question three, adequate space to co-locate all justice departments. 00:16:16.271 --> 00:16:25.713 - We just talked about this a little bit briefly, but the answer in here is maybe, and I wasn't sure if 00:16:25.713 --> 00:16:27.102 - that's because 00:16:27.266 --> 00:16:35.105 - We also have community corrections down the street. Or if we're worried about the square footage, because 00:16:35.105 --> 00:16:42.574 - the square footage on that DLC presentation was actually for a single floor jail. And once you start 00:16:42.574 --> 00:16:49.969 - doing multilevels, which this property would require, you also have to include elevators as well as 00:16:49.969 --> 00:16:54.110 - redundancies in terms of medical areas, I would assume. 00:16:55.106 --> 00:17:01.041 - know any more about the answer to that maybe that was filled in. I think it's very similar to as the 00:17:01.041 --> 00:17:07.036 - mayor pointed out earlier because the height would likely require variance from the current standards 00:17:07.036 --> 00:17:13.206 - and from any any proposed zoning standard. That's probably why there was some uncertainty inserted there 00:17:13.206 --> 00:17:19.141 - by my colleagues because they couldn't guarantee that that variance would be granted since that goes 00:17:19.141 --> 00:17:21.022 - through a public board process. 00:17:22.754 --> 00:17:29.049 - We talk about a public board process. I know you spent some time today helping me work through zoning. 00:17:29.049 --> 00:17:35.223 - Um, my understanding is if we were to do this property, um, surely we would end up in rezoning. Yes. 00:17:35.223 --> 00:17:41.701 - In the process of that, um, it will end up going to county council for approval. Do you mean city council 00:17:41.701 --> 00:17:48.180 - city council? Thank you. So I do mean that and I didn't say that. Thank you. It will end up going through 00:17:48.180 --> 00:17:50.686 - city council for approval. Correct? Yes. 00:17:50.818 --> 00:17:59.563 - Okay, so I guess with my city council president, and I know you can't hear everyone, but I just wanted 00:17:59.563 --> 00:18:08.307 - to get a sense of once we make a recommendation, if that recommendation were to be considered and they 00:18:08.307 --> 00:18:16.967 - were starting to invest on that process, if it got to the point in site design where it was presented 00:18:16.967 --> 00:18:18.750 - the 400 beds or 448, 00:18:18.946 --> 00:18:26.554 - It seems like the city council, I was trying to get a sense of whether or not at that point they would 00:18:26.554 --> 00:18:34.014 - be willing to consider the property even if they didn't agree with that amount. I can't speak for my 00:18:34.014 --> 00:18:41.400 - colleagues, but I will just say that process is going to be required for any property that's within 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:45.758 - city limits that will need to be zoned, so I don't know if 00:18:46.786 --> 00:18:55.057 - That is a useful guiding question only because it will be the same, no matter what problem. Yes, where 00:18:55.057 --> 00:19:03.568 - I was thinking is if all of the properties have to go through city rezoning and money's gonna be invested 00:19:03.568 --> 00:19:11.598 - into environmental site design and that's all time as well, which I think we all agree is something 00:19:11.598 --> 00:19:15.934 - on our minds and pretty critical from my perspective. 00:19:16.514 --> 00:19:23.725 - I guess I was just trying to get a sense of whether or not able to move forward with that process, or 00:19:23.725 --> 00:19:31.006 - if we're gonna hit a snag once we start talking about beds. I wouldn't anticipate that, but every time 00:19:31.006 --> 00:19:38.782 - I have thought it would be okay to speak for my colleagues, it was not. So I am not going to comment on that. 00:19:45.058 --> 00:19:51.824 - I just wanted to follow up with the renovations of the current building with Curry. And I think I just 00:19:51.824 --> 00:19:58.787 - know more about it because I work in the justice building. So I had some questions under the construction 00:19:58.787 --> 00:20:05.553 - feasibility section. We're talking about risk to those on site. I know that there's been, just to kind 00:20:05.553 --> 00:20:12.582 - of share with the community, we've had, as you've been aware, that there were some mold issues and there's 00:20:12.582 --> 00:20:13.502 - been a lot of 00:20:14.722 --> 00:20:21.027 - fogging both I think preventative, prosecutor's office multiple times actually in the past probably 00:20:21.027 --> 00:20:27.647 - a couple months. So in terms, it says unknown here when it comes down to renovations of current building 00:20:27.647 --> 00:20:34.014 - with Curry. I just wanted to share with legal staff, especially since we have that meeting coming up 00:20:34.014 --> 00:20:40.382 - on Monday, there is a county folder and I can't remember the order, but it's like mold, asbestos and 00:20:40.382 --> 00:20:44.606 - radon. So I would like to kind of include some of that information 00:20:45.986 --> 00:20:53.004 - as relevant to this particular column, if we could. And is that information publicly available so far? 00:20:53.004 --> 00:20:59.886 - I mean, it's available to me as a county employee, so I don't know. But to the extent that it can be 00:20:59.886 --> 00:21:07.177 - included in our assessment, I think the health and well-being of all people who are working in the justice 00:21:07.177 --> 00:21:14.196 - building, acting with it is important. And I want to make sure we take that into consideration if it's 00:21:14.196 --> 00:21:15.422 - relevant to this. 00:21:15.586 --> 00:21:23.154 - I will check into that and see if I can get access to those documents as well. I really appreciate it. 00:21:23.154 --> 00:21:30.649 - And I'm sorry, Mr. Allen, for all the questions. I know you're over there handling it by yourself. So 00:21:30.649 --> 00:21:38.291 - I think that's all the ones I have for now. Thank you so much, Chair Feidl. Anyone else? Are we talking 00:21:38.291 --> 00:21:45.566 - about any of the properties or just Curry for this point? Any, right? Any. I have one more. Sorry. 00:21:46.178 --> 00:21:55.649 - My understanding is the discussion around Thompson has involved that there is a pile of debris of some 00:21:55.649 --> 00:22:05.304 - variety and some utility poles and maybe a surge. One of the questions I had is, is it possible to start 00:22:05.304 --> 00:22:14.867 - building on the Thompson property while those utility poles are being moved and still long-term be able 00:22:14.867 --> 00:22:16.062 - to co-locate 00:22:16.866 --> 00:22:24.050 - fire justice system. So that's something that if Attorney Cockerill was here, I think he could have 00:22:24.050 --> 00:22:31.737 - a little bit more information about it. Is it possible? I would believe so. So the question, the threshold 00:22:31.737 --> 00:22:39.209 - question there would be, is the movement of the utility poles preventing access to the site completely? 00:22:39.209 --> 00:22:40.574 - And if they're not 00:22:40.898 --> 00:22:47.661 - If they're not actually preventing access to the site, i.e. through a, you could create a service road, 00:22:47.661 --> 00:22:54.814 - it is potential, it's possible rather that you could start not only your geotechnical work, but your grading. 00:22:55.106 --> 00:23:01.808 - and site preparation work ahead of moving those poles. Obviously, this was seen as a barrier to construction, 00:23:01.808 --> 00:23:08.084 - so it was significant enough in an area that was important enough that it would represent some barrier 00:23:08.084 --> 00:23:14.421 - to completing, to potentially going ahead with full construction of the site. You can always do, again, 00:23:14.421 --> 00:23:20.636 - meeting the threshold question that doesn't prevent access to the site. You could potentially do some 00:23:20.636 --> 00:23:24.414 - grading and property work before the movement of those poles. 00:23:26.530 --> 00:23:33.735 - And I apologize for my ignorance about where they're exactly located in the access. My understanding 00:23:33.735 --> 00:23:40.869 - is you do have access to it, but these are largely involving the large transmission lines that flow 00:23:40.869 --> 00:23:48.003 - from the substation that's very close by. Do you remember how long Thompson has been for discussion 00:23:48.003 --> 00:23:55.209 - for the jail? As far as I'm aware, and this is just a very sliver of awareness, so just keep in mind 00:23:55.209 --> 00:23:56.350 - my limitations, 00:23:56.770 --> 00:24:02.693 - which I'm sure you do all the time. It's about four years, at least, since it's been in contention. 00:24:02.693 --> 00:24:08.795 - So it says somewhere that it looks like it should have only taken two years to move the utility lines. 00:24:08.795 --> 00:24:14.718 - Is that correct? I believe that was the estimate from Duke, yes. OK, so that's something that could 00:24:14.718 --> 00:24:20.701 - have been accomplished if people were to think about it. If that estimate was correct based on their 00:24:20.701 --> 00:24:25.854 - engineers and everything went well, yes, that should have been correct. Just checking. 00:24:25.954 --> 00:24:36.885 - knows their own thing. Just checking. Thank you. The motioners mentioned in their meeting that at some 00:24:36.885 --> 00:24:47.603 - point DLZ informed them they need 25 acres this morning in their meeting. I was wondering if you had 00:24:47.603 --> 00:24:53.758 - access to that report or any of that information that DLZ 00:24:54.114 --> 00:25:00.398 - used as guidance for what we need ultimately for the justice center. If they've updated the report, 00:25:00.398 --> 00:25:06.809 - no. If it's based on what the North Park estimates, yes, we do have access to that. And again, that's 00:25:06.809 --> 00:25:13.156 - premised on a one-story co-located justice center, is my understanding. We could just have access to 00:25:13.156 --> 00:25:19.755 - whatever the basis is of that 25 acres. That would be helpful for the assessment on Monday, if we could. 00:25:19.755 --> 00:25:20.446 - Thank you. 00:25:29.890 --> 00:25:39.768 - I have an unrelated comment, perhaps. We had discussed last time at the end of last meeting how we would 00:25:39.768 --> 00:25:49.363 - approach this discussion, and we talked about eliminating any properties that really were not viable. 00:25:49.363 --> 00:25:58.206 - I just wanted to share that after going through this documentation, as long as we do not take 00:25:58.978 --> 00:26:08.289 - some of the assumptions as foregone conclusions, such as it must be co-located and it has to be single 00:26:08.289 --> 00:26:17.329 - story. I don't see anything that eliminates any of the five choices that we have remaining. I think 00:26:17.329 --> 00:26:25.374 - they're all still viable. And I would suggest that we have a conversation about at least 00:26:26.498 --> 00:26:36.489 - how we're going to prioritize them and lenses with which we're looking. I'm eager to hear public comment 00:26:36.489 --> 00:26:46.481 - in 28 minutes. That will definitively influence how I think about this. But I already have some thoughts 00:26:46.481 --> 00:26:52.190 - on ease of development and other things. So I don't know if 00:26:52.546 --> 00:27:00.470 - somebody on the team has thought about how to prioritize or if we want to make individual comments about 00:27:00.470 --> 00:27:08.318 - that. But I suggest if we've answered the questions, we move on to sort of at least overall impressions 00:27:08.318 --> 00:27:15.940 - of challenges and opportunities at each of the sites. I agree. I think that it also might be helpful 00:27:15.940 --> 00:27:22.430 - for all committee members to come with the properties ranked for Monday. I like that. 00:27:22.594 --> 00:27:31.520 - based on the metrics that we identified. And I think that we'll talk a little bit more about voting 00:27:31.520 --> 00:27:40.802 - procedures and how that works in the next 27 minutes. But I do think that us having the five properties 00:27:40.802 --> 00:27:49.817 - ranked on an individual basis will make the discussion a lot easier in the next one day. I recognize 00:27:49.817 --> 00:27:51.870 - that that is not a lot 00:27:52.226 --> 00:27:59.730 - business days in between, so please let me know if that does not sound. I think it almost has to be 00:27:59.730 --> 00:28:07.383 - feasible. There are tasks to do here. I planned to spend time on homework this weekend, and I've done 00:28:07.383 --> 00:28:14.962 - a lot of reading in preparation for this meeting, so I'm on track to be able to do that. I'm missing 00:28:14.962 --> 00:28:19.614 - some numbers, but if we're voting on Monday, I will be ready. 00:28:19.842 --> 00:28:27.570 - I will tell you that I have reached out for some data that I have not received as of yet that I think 00:28:27.570 --> 00:28:35.222 - is informative, so. Anyone else about that process? Are we okay? Do we need to decide if we're going 00:28:35.222 --> 00:28:43.252 - to rank them? That might be a good thing to establish. Can we agree to rank them? Maybe we should discuss 00:28:43.252 --> 00:28:49.086 - how the voting procedure works to see what the value will be of the ranking. 00:28:51.106 --> 00:28:58.606 - So are we kind of done with the concerns about the properties at this point, that 4A section, and we 00:28:58.606 --> 00:29:06.032 - can go to the voting thing that we decided we'd put there? All right. I was intending that we spend 00:29:06.032 --> 00:29:13.978 - some time now talking about the challenges and opportunities that we see with each of these sites, because 00:29:13.978 --> 00:29:19.102 - I would appreciate hearing from this team how they're thinking about 00:29:19.490 --> 00:29:27.928 - each of these properties that will contribute to my thoughts over the weekend, and then we'll be able 00:29:27.928 --> 00:29:36.449 - to hear from the public. And so I'll have lots of verbal input to consider. Want to go? Start with the 00:29:36.449 --> 00:29:44.969 - first one, right? So the first column is renovations of the current building with Curry. Somebody want 00:29:44.969 --> 00:29:48.030 - to give their pros and cons to that? 00:29:48.258 --> 00:29:58.265 - little site or site there? Maybe we can all contribute to pros and then we make a list of cons together. 00:29:58.265 --> 00:30:08.558 - So I'll say, you know, pros with this is that, you know, the jail and the justice system have the potential 00:30:08.558 --> 00:30:15.230 - for obviously staying in the same location with renovation, that it's 00:30:16.066 --> 00:30:24.988 - perhaps feasible to not disrupt the courts while we're doing, uh, the initial build out on the, um, 00:30:24.988 --> 00:30:34.267 - on the additional building. Um, so that's all appealing, obviously access to resources, transportation, 00:30:34.267 --> 00:30:43.278 - et cetera. All of that is already there. Um, and I think a benefit also, which is not in our matrix, 00:30:43.278 --> 00:30:45.598 - but we have, uh, lots of, 00:30:45.730 --> 00:30:55.465 - legal offices and other things that have been located close to this location. If it's not a 00:30:55.465 --> 00:31:06.787 - legal requirement, the number of beds that we build out now, I see this as a feasible site for a potential 00:31:06.787 --> 00:31:13.982 - phased build out. That would not necessarily mean that we build out 00:31:14.754 --> 00:31:23.160 - 448 beds now, but could, in fact, essentially white box it or whatever the equivalent is for a justice 00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:31.566 - facility and invest later should we need those additional beds. Those are my opportunities. All right. 00:31:31.566 --> 00:31:39.972 - Can I ask a follow-up to that? Ask a follow-up? Yes. And I'm so glad you brought this up, because this 00:31:39.972 --> 00:31:44.542 - is actually something I wanted to explore last meeting. 00:31:44.834 --> 00:31:52.556 - about the Curry. Sorry. I want to look at people. When we were talking about Curry previously, one of 00:31:52.556 --> 00:32:00.278 - the questions I had is what the proposed vision would be. And that sounds like you were talking about 00:32:00.278 --> 00:32:08.076 - a build out. And you were sharing that you don't think there'd be any disruption of courts. So I heard 00:32:08.076 --> 00:32:14.814 - your vision as using the Curry to build additional spaces that are relevant to the jail. 00:32:14.946 --> 00:32:24.546 - and keeping everything the same in the justice building? Not what I'm proposing. I think it's very clear 00:32:24.546 --> 00:32:34.055 - that the existing building needs either demolished and rebuilt or to have very significant renovations. 00:32:34.055 --> 00:32:40.638 - I just think that there's possibilities for phasing this. This may be a 00:32:40.738 --> 00:32:49.212 - a good time for me to bring up my assessment, which is that we really could use even a small amount 00:32:49.212 --> 00:32:57.686 - of money to hire somebody with a lot of construction experience to look at whatever our prioritized 00:32:57.686 --> 00:33:06.414 - sites are. I would recommend somebody who doesn't have a vested stake in building a portfolio project, 00:33:06.414 --> 00:33:08.702 - but that can simply assess 00:33:09.442 --> 00:33:18.034 - What are the creative construction solutions at perhaps our top two sites? And turn that around quickly, 00:33:18.034 --> 00:33:26.298 - not expecting hard numbers, et cetera, just possibilities and opportunities and limitations that we, 00:33:26.298 --> 00:33:34.727 - given our experience, don't see. So I'm not aware who would allocate such funding. I have no idea what 00:33:34.727 --> 00:33:37.918 - it would cost, but I'm not thinking of 00:33:38.690 --> 00:33:48.430 - a $50,000 investment. I'm thinking of a few thousand dollars to get some quick assessments made. 00:33:48.430 --> 00:33:58.472 - All right. So did you want to go? I can add a couple things. I think that keeping the jail as close 00:33:58.472 --> 00:34:07.710 - to downtown and with access to close proximity to all of our social services, but also just 00:34:08.066 --> 00:34:16.381 - The town itself is very important. Obviously, as the District 6 downtown representative, I am always 00:34:16.381 --> 00:34:24.696 - going to push to keep things downtown. But also, one of the things that stuck out to me was that all 00:34:24.696 --> 00:34:33.258 - of the utilities are there, which will make certain things significantly less of a headache moving down 00:34:33.258 --> 00:34:37.374 - the line. In terms of Ms. Wilson's question about 00:34:37.538 --> 00:34:46.740 - potential plan. Just speaking as one city council member, I would be happy to vote for a variance for 00:34:46.740 --> 00:34:56.032 - six stories. But for the rest of the body that I serve on. What would be your vision of how that would 00:34:56.032 --> 00:35:05.324 - work? Would the jail be all in the justice building? Would the Curry become the administrative section 00:35:05.324 --> 00:35:07.038 - in the courthouse? 00:35:07.330 --> 00:35:17.380 - What would be your ideal under that? I do not feel qualified to speak on all of the different spaces. 00:35:17.380 --> 00:35:27.430 - I don't feel that I could adequately speak on the spaces that all the different departments need. But 00:35:27.430 --> 00:35:37.086 - I'm happy to have that conversation more at length. I think it's not within our purview to create 00:35:38.370 --> 00:35:47.472 - a vision for how everything works. We receive square footages for various departments. I actually was 00:35:47.472 --> 00:35:56.486 - surprised at how they and would not have put those square footages, but that speaks to my experience 00:35:56.486 --> 00:36:06.302 - of knowing what's actually happening in detail with each of those spaces. So I think our job is to figure out 00:36:06.722 --> 00:36:15.253 - the best recommendation in the city for a possible site. I appreciate that. I think the reason I'm following 00:36:15.253 --> 00:36:23.393 - up on it is because, so the Curry-Fiscus building, right? Ms. Renbeck previously shared that the public 00:36:23.393 --> 00:36:31.455 - defender's office is in the Fiscus building, and in the Curry building, you have multiple departments. 00:36:31.455 --> 00:36:36.542 - I'm trying to understand how everything would fit in that space. 00:36:37.986 --> 00:36:44.220 - and be able to be functional. By choosing the Curry property, we are automatically deciding it's going 00:36:44.220 --> 00:36:50.696 - to be a multi-story jail. That is unequivocal. And I am worried in talking about things that we're worried 00:36:50.696 --> 00:36:56.870 - about and sharing, I'm worried about access and safety. I think the two main buckets. And when I talk 00:36:56.870 --> 00:37:03.285 - about access, for me that includes co-location and safety also includes co-location. But I'm also worried 00:37:03.285 --> 00:37:07.038 - about the conditions within the jail and having enough space. 00:37:10.274 --> 00:37:16.928 - Once you choose the Curry path, you are also going to disperse some of the people within that justice 00:37:16.928 --> 00:37:23.518 - building in order for them to do their job. And so I think that is something it's important to me to 00:37:23.518 --> 00:37:30.107 - take into consideration because it will cost money. It will have an impact. Time spent traveling for 00:37:30.107 --> 00:37:35.326 - the prosecutor's office or public defender's office is time not spent on cases. 00:37:38.114 --> 00:37:45.182 - I didn't hear that last part. I'm sorry. Yes, thank you. I apologize. Time spent traveling by prosecutors 00:37:45.182 --> 00:37:51.851 - and public defenders is time not spent on cases, on defendants, on victims, on the work. So for me, 00:37:51.851 --> 00:37:59.052 - it is a factor. But I understand we're all coming from different places. Yeah. Are all of those departments 00:37:59.052 --> 00:38:05.854 - included in these square footage estimates that we received in our pattern or they're on the website? 00:38:06.050 --> 00:38:11.528 - know if we received them in the part in the packet, the clerk probation, public defender, prosecutor, 00:38:11.528 --> 00:38:16.953 - criminal prosecutor, child support, courts, training room, sheriff's office, jail admin in jail. I'm 00:38:16.953 --> 00:38:22.539 - glad you brought that up. That's one of the emails that I sent out that I haven't had a response. Okay, 00:38:22.539 --> 00:38:27.910 - so I wanted to understand the square footage. So I could use that as a guide to figure out how many 00:38:27.910 --> 00:38:33.388 - stores, stories or floors we would have to go up to see if it fit on that space. So I'm hopeful I can 00:38:33.388 --> 00:38:34.462 - get that by Monday. 00:38:35.554 --> 00:38:43.942 - You're waiting for a response on what the square footage requirements are I follow up questions to those 00:38:43.942 --> 00:38:51.931 - I figure out what they included. Okay, I I will just suggest that an architect or even a You know a 00:38:51.931 --> 00:39:00.160 - good builder Could give you an assessment Based on these numbers and some penciling whether we can fit 00:39:00.160 --> 00:39:01.598 - it on those sites 00:39:02.690 --> 00:39:10.376 - And further down in the email, it says specifically that there are additional square footages that are 00:39:10.376 --> 00:39:18.436 - not included in the square footages you're referring to. So that was actually one of my follow-up questions 00:39:18.436 --> 00:39:26.123 - to help guide us. Yeah. I'm not sure what MEP is. You know what MEP is? It's one of the spaces listed. 00:39:26.123 --> 00:39:29.630 - All the other spaces listed will depend on the 00:39:30.050 --> 00:39:38.768 - on the actual building and whether it's one floor, two floors, et cetera, because it involves, these 00:39:38.768 --> 00:39:47.573 - things involve how many elevator systems you need, where stairwells go, et cetera. And so part of the 00:39:47.573 --> 00:39:56.464 - reason, I imagine the reason that they're not included here is because you actually have to be dealing 00:39:56.464 --> 00:39:58.622 - with the actual building 00:39:58.786 --> 00:40:07.374 - to estimate these things. MEP stands for Mechanical Electrical Plumbing. There we go. The public spaces, 00:40:07.374 --> 00:40:15.716 - I noticed, are not on the list. Public toilets and lobbies and those in the courthouse is open to the 00:40:15.716 --> 00:40:21.278 - public. Yeah, that's listed in that other square footage is needed. 00:40:22.818 --> 00:40:34.377 - Out of respect for the public's time, and given that public comment is supposed to start in 15 minutes, 00:40:34.377 --> 00:40:45.491 - I would suggest we move on to another property. So any other? We'll move on to Tap Road North. Rose 00:40:45.491 --> 00:40:50.270 - and Conde there. Certainly has more space. 00:40:50.786 --> 00:41:02.323 - but I feel much less confident about the process for securing utilities. I would say that both Tap Roads 00:41:02.323 --> 00:41:13.641 - and Fullerton, I think we could, at least my comments will be fairly consistent, that they are, to our 00:41:13.641 --> 00:41:18.366 - knowledge, greenfield sites that should be 00:41:19.138 --> 00:41:31.748 - as straightforward to develop as one could expect given karst topography and other things that we know 00:41:31.748 --> 00:41:44.112 - are in our community, significant infrastructure needs for each of those properties. And I would say 00:41:44.112 --> 00:41:48.030 - the other thing is that there's 00:41:48.482 --> 00:42:00.184 - also significant topographical changes, I believe, in each one of those properties, which could make 00:42:00.184 --> 00:42:12.001 - building a single story not the most efficient use of your space. Also on Tap Road North, are we kind 00:42:12.001 --> 00:42:18.142 - of ventured into both Tap Roads and Fullerton there? 00:42:21.602 --> 00:42:31.151 - the same region, right? I think for these purposes, our review will be fairly similar. I'll just continue 00:42:31.151 --> 00:42:40.520 - that, you know, one of the disadvantages obviously is distance to services. I am not experienced enough 00:42:40.520 --> 00:42:50.430 - in this to know which services are coming into the jail and the justice building and what services need to be 00:42:50.722 --> 00:43:01.840 - located close by. It's also not on transportation route yet. I think that could possibly change. I feel 00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:12.744 - much more strongly the courts need to be, courts and probation need to be on public transit. The jail 00:43:12.744 --> 00:43:17.982 - isn't actually taking visitors and so, you know, 00:43:18.146 --> 00:43:26.513 - We have to solve for when we release somebody and how we get them to where they need to be. But in terms 00:43:26.513 --> 00:43:35.119 - of everyday public transit, I'm not sure that jail is the highest need that we have at this point. Anything 00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:43.406 - else about those three? On to the last one in the last few minutes here would be the Thompson property, 00:43:43.406 --> 00:43:47.550 - right? We haven't talked about that, pros and cons. 00:43:49.410 --> 00:43:58.517 - Thompson property, the utilities are going to be the biggest barrier or the, excuse me, the existing 00:43:58.517 --> 00:44:07.895 - utility lines. Yeah, the power lines. Yes. That needs some movement, as I remember. I've seen movement. 00:44:07.895 --> 00:44:17.002 - In terms of zoning on the Thompson property, while it will, we do anticipate needing a rezone there, 00:44:17.002 --> 00:44:19.166 - it is already zoned for 00:44:19.586 --> 00:44:27.683 - Something similar, right? I mean, you could have a jail there, you just couldn't have one as significant 00:44:27.683 --> 00:44:35.471 - as what we want. So I don't know how that'll be viewed by the council or the plan commission, but it 00:44:35.471 --> 00:44:43.182 - is an adjacent rezone, I would say. A zoning modification instead of a... Complete change. Yeah, it 00:44:43.182 --> 00:44:47.038 - technically still is a rezone, but it's adjacent. 00:44:48.514 --> 00:44:58.120 - essentially would follow the exact same process. So you go before the same board and everything, so. 00:44:58.120 --> 00:45:07.726 - Yes, but in terms of your argument for granting it, if I write, you could do something similar. What 00:45:07.726 --> 00:45:16.286 - else about Thompson? Anything? Any other comments about the remaining ones that we might? 00:45:16.770 --> 00:45:26.136 - thought of more about at this point. Okay. So we'll move on to voting procedures, right? We're going 00:45:26.136 --> 00:45:35.688 - to vote the next time we meet. We are. We are. We are going to vote. That's right. So anybody have any 00:45:35.688 --> 00:45:45.982 - suggestions about that? I know April, you brought up the issue. Might you have some suggestions at this point? 00:45:46.946 --> 00:45:53.736 - I guess there's, I mean, we're talking about the procedural aspect. There's five of us. There's five 00:45:53.736 --> 00:46:00.727 - of us. So I guess the first question is, I'm assuming it's a majority, is what would the recommendation 00:46:00.727 --> 00:46:07.651 - be? Should we go down the list here? Do we just want to go and say, okay, do we all agree on majority? 00:46:07.651 --> 00:46:12.894 - Somebody make a motion for that? Or are we going to do everything altogether? 00:46:13.218 --> 00:46:23.364 - I have an idea that may get our conversation started. It's not a perfect idea, and I just want to admit 00:46:23.364 --> 00:46:33.412 - that upfront. If we are all coming with a rank, let's say our top choice got a five, our second choice 00:46:33.412 --> 00:46:39.070 - got a four, et cetera, we could begin our conversation by 00:46:40.322 --> 00:46:49.901 - some of those numbers for each site and then have a discussion about essentially why. So if it's clear 00:46:49.901 --> 00:46:59.201 - that if one property, for instance, gets 25 points, we know everybody picked it as their top. But I 00:46:59.201 --> 00:47:08.222 - do think before we vote, having something that we could use as a tool to facilitate conversation 00:47:08.418 --> 00:47:20.942 - may be helpful. So I would suggest that we, in the absence of a more complex matrix, could begin our 00:47:20.942 --> 00:47:33.342 - discussion. And then after discussion, we could take a vote. I know we need to pick a top property. 00:47:33.858 --> 00:47:43.534 - My hesitation in stopping there is that if that top property gets eliminated, the commissioners or others, 00:47:43.534 --> 00:47:53.028 - this subcommittee would perhaps necessarily have to get back together. And I think to complete our work, 00:47:53.028 --> 00:48:02.162 - in my ideal world, we would send some ranking. Our top choice is this. Ranking would help with that, 00:48:02.162 --> 00:48:03.518 - it seems, yes. 00:48:03.650 --> 00:48:12.827 - So do we think that ranking will be a good way to come into this voting procedure? Yes. Any further 00:48:12.827 --> 00:48:22.371 - comments on that? I was just thinking, I'm very interested in hearing everyone's first choice and their 00:48:22.371 --> 00:48:32.190 - thoughts. I'm going to do a lot of reading and come in prepared but I'm also coming in prepared to listen. 00:48:33.826 --> 00:48:40.551 - So I might not have a ranking that's solidified by then, but have a sense of what I want to do. I'm 00:48:40.551 --> 00:48:47.344 - also going to ask Mr. Cockrell some questions on Monday. So happy to do a ranking if you would like. 00:48:47.344 --> 00:48:54.203 - I'm looking forward to hearing from each of us individually. Yeah, as well as I. I think the rankings 00:48:54.203 --> 00:48:57.566 - is just a starting point for our discussion. Yes. 00:48:57.922 --> 00:49:02.752 - It's kind of a baseline. We can go from there. And maybe, I mean, I've sort of been in committees to 00:49:02.752 --> 00:49:07.630 - know this, maybe you'll change your mind based on what you've heard from somebody else, right? That's 00:49:07.630 --> 00:49:12.508 - always a possibility. So I think you'd be willing to come in with the ranking and be open-minded like 00:49:12.508 --> 00:49:17.481 - Ms. Wilson was talking and the rest of us about listening and seeing if there's anything that you might 00:49:17.481 --> 00:49:22.263 - not have thought of that somebody else did that could change your ranking system. So I think that's 00:49:22.263 --> 00:49:24.702 - a really good, but at least it's a starting point. 00:49:26.018 --> 00:49:34.152 - So ranking seems to be a preferred method from what I hear with the flexibility to amend that if necessary, 00:49:34.152 --> 00:49:41.835 - right? No ranking will solidify anyone into a vote. That's right. It's just preliminary understanding 00:49:41.835 --> 00:49:49.367 - our thoughts. It's a good discussion, way to begin the discussion. Okay. All right. What else do we 00:49:49.367 --> 00:49:55.166 - need to do here? So let's talk about the voting procedures. Did we solidify? 00:49:55.874 --> 00:50:06.423 - The majority? The ranking, if we do that, right? So I don't know if we need a majority, right? You brought 00:50:06.423 --> 00:50:16.676 - up- You said the ranking isn't a vote though. Right. Perhaps we could take a final vote. And would that 00:50:16.676 --> 00:50:21.310 - be a majority then? Are we solidified on that? 00:50:22.338 --> 00:50:31.116 - So does somebody want to make a motion that will vote ultimately on whatever we deem rankable, 00:50:31.116 --> 00:50:40.540 - so to speak, and then go from there? Can you speak a little? Yes. I move that this working committee, 00:50:40.540 --> 00:50:50.334 - by a simple vote majority, will submit a list of recommendations, including rankings and explanations for 00:50:51.554 --> 00:50:59.054 - property's ranking. Is there a second? I'll second. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. I didn't see everybody 00:50:59.054 --> 00:51:06.197 - vote. I saw most of you. I didn't vote. All those opposed? I was trying to figure out what it meant 00:51:06.197 --> 00:51:13.625 - exactly. We're doing a ranking. It starts our conversation. And then we're going to say which property, 00:51:13.625 --> 00:51:21.054 - one of us will have to say what property we're voting for and then we vote for it by a majority, right? 00:51:24.034 --> 00:51:30.076 - So then I agree, aye. So I think we have all five of us now. So we agree to do a majority vote with 00:51:30.076 --> 00:51:36.360 - the ranking. What happens if we don't have a majority? Well, since there's five, there'll be a majority 00:51:36.360 --> 00:51:42.765 - of some sort, I would think. Somebody could abstain. Could abstain, yes. Okay, fine. That's a good point. 00:51:42.765 --> 00:51:49.048 - Okay. So what do we do if we don't have a majority? Typically under Robert's rules, it's going to fail. 00:51:49.048 --> 00:51:52.734 - So any lack of majority or a tie is a failure in the motion. 00:51:52.898 --> 00:52:02.171 - That's the baseline rules for voting. But at that point, someone could introduce a new motion to approve 00:52:02.171 --> 00:52:11.091 - a different property. True. Correct. True. Do we get a majority? I think it'll flush out. I do think 00:52:11.091 --> 00:52:20.894 - I've been through enough votes. I think it'll flush out. Yeah. OK. So what else here? Anything else? It might. 00:52:22.434 --> 00:52:28.528 - taking the last three minutes to set up for public comment? Yeah, let's take the last three minutes. 00:52:28.528 --> 00:52:34.682 - That's a good suggestion. Should we see maybe who wants to speak? Do we know from the people that are 00:52:34.682 --> 00:52:40.957 - here how many will want to come and speak? At this point, our rules or our resolution has said we would 00:52:40.957 --> 00:52:47.051 - allow three minutes each, so do we have people that are willing to speak three minutes each that are 00:52:47.051 --> 00:52:51.998 - here in this evening? Sign up sheet. Somebody's already got their hand up online. 00:52:53.186 --> 00:53:01.590 - Raise your hand. Okay. Can we just count them off here? One, two, three, four, five, six. I see six, 00:53:01.590 --> 00:53:10.161 - right? Seven on the screen. One on the screen. So there's seven. Okay. Somebody else just raised their 00:53:10.161 --> 00:53:11.742 - hand. Eight. Okay. 00:53:15.714 --> 00:53:22.901 - I think we're gonna be able to manage this. It starts at seven, so we've got a couple minutes here. 00:53:22.901 --> 00:53:30.376 - So we'll adjourn for now and reconvene at seven. Yeah, I think it's worth perhaps just reminding people 00:53:30.376 --> 00:53:37.636 - what our public comment procedure is verbally. So whoever is in the room will come to the podium and 00:53:37.636 --> 00:53:45.470 - state their name and they'll be given three minutes to present public comment about this issue, which is the 00:53:45.890 --> 00:53:55.175 - subcommittee work and how we'll decide or whatever you want to talk about with this whole project here. 00:53:55.175 --> 00:54:04.280 - And then we'll alternate, if we can, between the room and online. And then we'll close public comment 00:54:04.280 --> 00:54:08.030 - out when people are done here and online. 00:54:08.226 --> 00:54:15.534 - We're down to one minute. After the minutes of them being able to do their comment, if we had a follow-up 00:54:15.534 --> 00:54:22.428 - question, can we ask them a follow-up question? The resolution said you get one time. So typically, 00:54:22.428 --> 00:54:29.597 - yeah, you just have the one time to speak. The way we set up the baseline rules, which can be suspended 00:54:29.597 --> 00:54:32.286 - by this body, just to be really clear. 00:54:32.386 --> 00:54:39.060 - public comment. The baseline rules were that you get a three minute period to speak. That's just a comment 00:54:39.060 --> 00:54:45.422 - to you all. There is no back and forth typically. Now, of course, if that prompts questions. From the 00:54:45.422 --> 00:54:51.846 - subcommittee. Have we adjourned the meeting yet? I think we're going to keep the meeting going through 00:54:51.846 --> 00:54:58.145 - public comment. So you all could ask staff that question. We haven't really provided a mechanism for 00:54:58.145 --> 00:55:01.950 - asking again. No back and forth with the public, but there's 00:55:02.850 --> 00:55:12.308 - Now we don't need to adjourn. We don't need to adjourn. I'll just in terms of framing for public comment 00:55:12.308 --> 00:55:21.316 - before we get started, I'll just speaking for myself, I really rely on public comment to help think 00:55:21.316 --> 00:55:28.702 - creatively about how to solve problems. So some of you may be here to convince us 00:55:29.346 --> 00:55:36.567 - don't do this or do do this. I'm also really interested in the solutions that you all have in mind. 00:55:36.567 --> 00:55:43.861 - And so if you're open to including some of those in your public comments, I will be taking notes and 00:55:43.861 --> 00:55:51.154 - thinking through those carefully. As will I. Thank you. All right. So we'll have the first person in 00:55:51.154 --> 00:55:58.014 - the room here who wants to come forward and state their name and come to the podium and speak. 00:56:06.626 --> 00:56:15.456 - Thank you. Good evening. Thank you guys for doing this and evaluating all the sites in a fair and equal 00:56:15.456 --> 00:56:24.285 - basis. I'm Randy Cassidy. I'm here tonight as a citizen and I'd like to address the basis of what we're 00:56:24.285 --> 00:56:32.945 - looking at from an economic and a health basis and constitutionality of what we need in order to make 00:56:32.945 --> 00:56:34.558 - the community safe 00:56:34.754 --> 00:56:43.271 - and economically viable. Keeping the jail in a downtown area where the services are already there, existing 00:56:43.271 --> 00:56:51.472 - transportation should be the forefront of what we're looking for. When we look at these five particular 00:56:51.472 --> 00:56:59.516 - sites, two of these sites that are outside in the area, I happen to be a neighbor too. We have no bus 00:56:59.516 --> 00:57:03.774 - line. The transportation to the tap road sites is not 00:57:04.418 --> 00:57:11.498 - not what it should be and the transportation costs to keep our courts downtown so that we have that 00:57:11.498 --> 00:57:18.649 - ability to keep people together and through the process is Panama. Today I went through and I looked 00:57:18.649 --> 00:57:26.083 - at where the services are located at based on probation, based on Centerstone, based on Shalom Community 00:57:26.083 --> 00:57:33.022 - Kitchen and where those services located and the individual nonprofits and profits that assist in 00:57:33.154 --> 00:57:40.683 - the individuals there. It's all co-located downtown. The Fullerton site is far. It has no bus line. 00:57:40.683 --> 00:57:48.213 - Both TAP road sites have no bus lines. They would both continually need infrastructure improvements 00:57:48.213 --> 00:57:56.495 - on all of them. The Thompson property, as we look at it, if you look at the Beacon and GIS from a standpoint, 00:57:56.495 --> 00:57:58.302 - it's next to one of our 00:57:58.658 --> 00:58:06.307 - largest employers, and it has a land value per the assessor of $34 million at the present moment. So 00:58:06.307 --> 00:58:13.881 - that particular site was originally built, bought for a youth services bureau. It's since been, has 00:58:13.881 --> 00:58:21.681 - the ability to be a jail, but is that the right place as we try to look at what we have to do to house 00:58:21.681 --> 00:58:27.134 - our community and keep things close? When we look at the existing jail, 00:58:27.714 --> 00:58:34.159 - and justice center, co-location in near downtown area tends to keep the vibrancy and it also keeps the 00:58:34.159 --> 00:58:40.417 - health and safety of the population of the jail as they're being released. They have services, they 00:58:40.417 --> 00:58:46.737 - have places to go. When I look at it through the fiscal basis of what it is, I compare the Thompson, 00:58:46.737 --> 00:58:51.806 - which has a baseline land cost of 34 million and is already owned by the county. 00:58:51.906 --> 00:58:59.077 - could be utilized for a multitude of things from either economic basis or housing. When I look at what 00:58:59.077 --> 00:59:06.456 - the combination of the Curry building, the Fiscus building and the new the parking garage that the county 00:59:06.456 --> 00:59:13.418 - built, that total land value is $7,973,700. That owned by the county. When we address the potential 00:59:13.418 --> 00:59:19.614 - of how many stories we have to go up and what we have to do. When I look at the existing 00:59:19.746 --> 00:59:25.818 - justice center in jail, and I'm going to go out on a limb here in a zoning standpoint, I would think 00:59:25.818 --> 00:59:31.951 - that is already grandfathered as a jail and a justice center. And I could be wrong. I think counselor 00:59:31.951 --> 00:59:37.963 - Zulig here has graciously started the time. Time is up. Yes, it's also appeared on the screen. So I 00:59:37.963 --> 00:59:44.095 - don't know where you were at. Maybe you could send us emails. Would that work? I can do that. Just to 00:59:44.095 --> 00:59:49.566 - address the health issue, the biggest problem the justice center's had is having water and 00:59:50.178 --> 00:59:57.780 - water above where the courts are. So the colocation would work. It's a matter of the will of the individuals. 00:59:57.780 --> 01:00:04.691 - Thank you. Thank you. Right. So we go online, maybe to the next one. Can somebody figure out how to 01:00:04.691 --> 01:00:11.741 - do that? I don't have anything to work with here. One person online. And how do I how do we make that 01:00:11.741 --> 01:00:19.550 - happen? Text services has to they have elevated them, so they should be able to unmute now. It's a phone number. 01:00:23.170 --> 01:00:33.439 - So is it 8123? I can't see the whole phone number. It's the full number, but it's 812345. I can't see 01:00:33.439 --> 01:00:43.707 - the rest. If you have your hand raised on Zoom and you're calling in, please unmute yourself and give 01:00:43.707 --> 01:00:50.654 - your three-minute public comment. Can we go to the next one, please? 01:00:51.458 --> 01:01:02.080 - or L has their hand raised. Can we go to the next one, please? Lee, you should be able to unmute yourself. 01:01:02.080 --> 01:01:12.703 - You'll have three minutes. Thank you. Can you hear me okay? Yes, thank you. My name is Lee, I'm a resident 01:01:12.703 --> 01:01:20.446 - of Monroe County. Thank you for your in-depth discussion tonight on the site. 01:01:21.346 --> 01:01:29.598 - One of the things that I would like to mention is that RQAW did a feasibility study for the county in 01:01:29.598 --> 01:01:38.012 - which they priced out and talked about renovation of the current facility, giving all kinds of numbers, 01:01:38.012 --> 01:01:46.346 - millions of dollars in numbers, including relocation costs for the rebuild. I think that might be very 01:01:46.346 --> 01:01:51.038 - helpful when looking at the Curry Plus renovation option. 01:01:52.258 --> 01:02:01.640 - That has been a study that's been played for recently. I appreciate everyone's time and energy that 01:02:01.640 --> 01:02:11.679 - you're putting on in this, and that was my only comment. Thank you. All right, we'll go back to in-person. 01:02:11.679 --> 01:02:21.342 - This person, please state your name and... Yeah, hi there. I'm Zach Emmerman. You all know me, but hi. 01:02:21.474 --> 01:02:26.915 - Met with all of you. So I'm actually agnostic on the final site a little bit. What I'm not agnostic 01:02:26.915 --> 01:02:32.791 - on is the characteristics of the final site. I think the subcommittee, or whatever you're calling yourself, 01:02:32.791 --> 01:02:38.450 - has maybe eliminated a couple of sites a little willy nilly because you're going too fast a little bit. 01:02:38.450 --> 01:02:44.109 - So I would recommend maybe going a little bit slower because you could be a little bit more methodical. 01:02:44.109 --> 01:02:49.278 - I know you're on a time crunch that's not of your own making, but you could ask for more time. 01:02:49.378 --> 01:02:55.601 - That being said, of the five sites that you have that are remaining, I think there's one clear standout 01:02:55.601 --> 01:03:01.884 - to me, and I think you all know which one I'm talking about, that's the Curry Building, plus renovation. 01:03:01.884 --> 01:03:08.107 - The four other sites, to me, have all of the same problems as North Park. They are just North Park with 01:03:08.107 --> 01:03:14.630 - a different name. They allow for sprawling suburban jumbo jail complexes that we know that the commissioners 01:03:14.630 --> 01:03:17.502 - are going to build if you give them that space. 01:03:17.858 --> 01:03:23.884 - They are far from services. They are nowhere near downtown. They are disconnected from transit. They 01:03:23.884 --> 01:03:30.029 - have all of the exact same problems that the North Park site had and will be opposed by many of us for 01:03:30.029 --> 01:03:35.996 - the exact same reason the North Park site was. I'm not necessarily 100% thinking it has to be Curry 01:03:35.996 --> 01:03:41.246 - or nothing else. I think there were potentially other sites where you could have built. 01:03:41.346 --> 01:03:47.770 - But of the sites that are remaining, I think Curry is the clear winner because it doesn't have the problems 01:03:47.770 --> 01:03:53.896 - of being a sprawling Greenfield site that contributes to suburban sprawl, turns us into Carmel, allows 01:03:53.896 --> 01:03:59.904 - for a jumbo jail to be built, et cetera, as far from services. So those are the things I don't want. 01:03:59.904 --> 01:04:05.911 - Curry doesn't have those problems. So to me, that is the obvious answer. So thank you. Thank you. Go 01:04:05.911 --> 01:04:08.350 - back to online. Who would be next there? 01:04:13.698 --> 01:04:23.086 - Mr. Spoonmore might be next. Can we have Mr. Spoonmore give his comments? Is he able to do that at this 01:04:23.086 --> 01:04:32.293 - point? Yeah. Eric, can you unmute and offer your comments? He unmuted. Hi, everybody. Can you hear me 01:04:32.293 --> 01:04:40.958 - okay? Yes, thank you. Good. Sorry I couldn't be there in person tonight. I just wanted to first 01:04:41.634 --> 01:04:49.811 - Thank each and every one of you for being there to participate in this productive, constructive, 01:04:49.811 --> 01:04:58.409 - collaborative conversation. I'd be remiss if I didn't say that I regret that there are some important 01:04:58.409 --> 01:05:07.175 - people that should be there at that table working alongside of you. Regardless of that, I do appreciate 01:05:07.175 --> 01:05:11.390 - some of the comments from Mayor Thompson earlier. 01:05:12.002 --> 01:05:23.060 - about the requirements that are involved with this project. And I think it's important to remind everybody 01:05:23.060 --> 01:05:33.601 - that a location, a single story jail, a prescribed timeline are not requirements of anything that the 01:05:33.601 --> 01:05:40.318 - ACLU has stipulated. We've heard from our commissioners and it's 01:05:40.962 --> 01:05:49.030 - frankly bizarre to me that they would put this narrative out there that we have to co-locate, that we 01:05:49.030 --> 01:05:57.098 - have to have a single story facility, that we have a prescribed timeline. We do not have any of that. 01:05:57.098 --> 01:06:05.166 - And so, to answer the mayor's question earlier about solutions, all I can say is that I know what one 01:06:05.166 --> 01:06:10.782 - solution is not, and it's not North Park. We have to move beyond that. 01:06:11.042 --> 01:06:17.441 - But there are other good options that you all are considering. And I think these conversations have 01:06:17.441 --> 01:06:23.840 - all been very valuable, productive. And at the end of the day, if a judge has to figure this out, I 01:06:23.840 --> 01:06:30.239 - think they'll look at the record and they'll see what is required and what is not. And I think your 01:06:30.239 --> 01:06:36.830 - recommendation is gonna be very important to that decision. So thank you for your work, continue doing 01:06:36.830 --> 01:06:40.286 - it. And I look forward to following it going forward. 01:06:42.658 --> 01:06:52.566 - much all right back in the room if we could have the next person and then maybe the next person after 01:06:52.566 --> 01:07:01.502 - that queuing up so we we can this is the time well here how was your name when you're ready 01:07:05.570 --> 01:07:12.384 - Hello, my name is Seth Mutchler, resident of Monroe County. I'm gonna try to keep this short. I say 01:07:12.384 --> 01:07:19.266 - that and I always go to time. I have had the privilege of meeting with many of you, so I'm not gonna 01:07:19.266 --> 01:07:26.080 - rehash things that I have already sent. I often do better in written words where I can sort of take 01:07:26.080 --> 01:07:33.234 - some time, so I will just let you lean on those words that folks at Cairnock Cages have sent. So, sorry, 01:07:33.234 --> 01:07:35.006 - long day. I'm gonna start 01:07:35.106 --> 01:07:41.014 - By saying that I would ask you all to vote in favor of renovation of the existing Zitlal building with 01:07:41.014 --> 01:07:46.807 - the possible addition of the Curry and Fiscus building. I personally feel that is the best choice of 01:07:46.807 --> 01:07:48.126 - the options available. 01:07:48.482 --> 01:07:53.581 - Right. This is a very complicated issue. There are a lot of things. So that's where I will say, I will 01:07:53.581 --> 01:07:58.778 - ask you to look at the things that have already been sent. But especially as you are going to be working 01:07:58.778 --> 01:08:03.926 - over the weekend, as you said, we at Careknot Cages humbly are very proud of the many years of research 01:08:03.926 --> 01:08:08.925 - and scholarship that collectively we have done on this topic. And we would love to be a resource for 01:08:08.925 --> 01:08:12.638 - you all. We would also love to be a resource for the public. So if anybody 01:08:12.706 --> 01:08:18.286 - has questions and would like to say, hey, Care.cages has read way too many white papers about this. 01:08:18.286 --> 01:08:23.866 - Our email is care.cages.monroecounty at gmail.com. We'll be checking the email over the weekend. So 01:08:23.866 --> 01:08:29.222 - if any of you are like, hey, what about this? Any of the members of the public? If you're like, 01:08:29.222 --> 01:08:35.025 - single story, multi story, what's up with that? We have answers to that that take longer to answer than 01:08:35.025 --> 01:08:40.717 - three minutes, but are relatively short. So thank you all for your time. Appreciate you. Thank you so 01:08:40.717 --> 01:08:42.558 - much. All right, back to online. 01:08:42.690 --> 01:08:54.399 - Who would be next there? The same eight, one, two, three, four, five. Do you wanna give it another shot? 01:08:54.399 --> 01:09:05.886 - They should be able to unmute. Otherwise we're gonna assume that maybe your hand is raised mistakenly. 01:09:05.886 --> 01:09:09.566 - Okay, we'll go back to the room. 01:09:10.466 --> 01:09:19.181 - next person please come up and give us your name and your three minutes if you have them. Hello my name 01:09:19.181 --> 01:09:27.895 - is Sam Holderman. To make it very brief I would like you to consider renovation first and foremost with 01:09:27.895 --> 01:09:36.526 - possible inclusion of the Curry building. To me it is a complicated matter but you the purview of this 01:09:36.526 --> 01:09:39.710 - specific subcommittee is location and 01:09:39.874 --> 01:09:44.702 - far and away the Curry building slash current 01:09:44.962 --> 01:09:52.173 - jail is the best location because it is located downtown, is already located close to services, and 01:09:52.173 --> 01:09:59.745 - we've heard for years and years now, going back to the CJRC and before, how important access to services 01:09:59.745 --> 01:10:07.029 - and being centrally located is. So just on that basis alone, I think if we're just looking at sites, 01:10:07.029 --> 01:10:12.798 - locations, where should it be, to my mind, that is the first choice. Thank you. 01:10:14.434 --> 01:10:24.675 - The next in the room, please. Hi, my name is Kathleen Paquette, a longtime Monroe County resident. Thank 01:10:24.675 --> 01:10:34.527 - you for having us and listening to us. Most of you all know me. I've met with many of you. So again, 01:10:34.527 --> 01:10:40.574 - I don't want to rehash things we've already spoken about, but 01:10:40.738 --> 01:10:47.796 - because I have the public mic here and everyone, including folks I haven't talked to. I do want to really 01:10:47.796 --> 01:10:54.721 - quick address a lot of misinformation, I feel, is going around, around single story versus multi story. 01:10:54.721 --> 01:11:01.512 - I want to be very clear that single story is a recommendation, not a requirement. And from all of the 01:11:01.512 --> 01:11:05.374 - research and reading I've done and my comrades have done, 01:11:05.730 --> 01:11:13.208 - As far as we can tell, the only reason for it even being a recommendation is based on staffing and sight 01:11:13.208 --> 01:11:20.329 - lines. But all of that said, most cities and municipalities of our size build multi-story jails. So 01:11:20.329 --> 01:11:27.807 - the idea that single-story is somehow a requirement is just not accurate. And I really wish people would 01:11:27.807 --> 01:11:32.222 - just stop talking about it like it is. It's very frustrating. 01:11:33.570 --> 01:11:40.484 - And yeah, I just want to kind of second the just sort of zooming out on the properties and thinking 01:11:40.484 --> 01:11:47.399 - about which properties are kind of just North Park 2.0. To me, any property that is outside of town 01:11:47.399 --> 01:11:54.452 - on a sprawling greenfield site is just going to contribute to sprawl. It's far away from services. It 01:11:54.452 --> 01:12:02.334 - hollows out the core of our downtown. There are just so many reasons to not go down that route, especially if you 01:12:02.530 --> 01:12:08.811 - back up and just think about what kind of community you want to see Bloomington be in 10 or 20 years. 01:12:08.811 --> 01:12:15.153 - Are we going to continue to just sprawl out and accommodate people who only have cars, or are we going 01:12:15.153 --> 01:12:21.496 - to try to keep a walkable, vibrant downtown that cares about serving all of our citizens? So yeah, you 01:12:21.496 --> 01:12:27.838 - all have been really in the weeds on some very, very specific things about square footage and property 01:12:29.026 --> 01:12:35.876 - small details with utilities and stuff, but I just ask that you zoom out and consider what kind of community 01:12:35.876 --> 01:12:42.412 - you see for the future of Bloomington and Monroe County. Yeah, I think that's all I have for you today. 01:12:42.412 --> 01:12:48.131 - Thank you so much for listening, and I appreciate y'all's work on this. Thank you so much. 01:12:48.131 --> 01:12:50.142 - Right in the room, anyone else? 01:13:09.442 --> 01:13:15.843 - Hello, my name is Seaforth Breeze. I'm a resident here in Bloomington. I wanted to come here today to 01:13:15.843 --> 01:13:22.244 - reiterate to a small degree, one of the points I made at an earlier meeting, the notion that services 01:13:22.244 --> 01:13:28.770 - and transit connections, things like that, they are a make or break for people getting out of the jail. 01:13:28.770 --> 01:13:35.422 - They can have huge impact. Many folks, when they get out, they don't have access to transit or, you know, 01:13:35.586 --> 01:13:42.291 - They don't have people in town that they can reach out to for whatever reason. And so I had mentioned 01:13:42.291 --> 01:13:49.258 - last time that I work at a bike co-op. And we've had two people, just in the short time I've been working 01:13:49.258 --> 01:13:55.897 - there, who needed that resource. And they would not have been able to access that in an effective or 01:13:55.897 --> 01:14:02.536 - timely manner if it was located on the edges of town. I also want to circle around to a point that I 01:14:02.536 --> 01:14:04.574 - didn't make last time, though. 01:14:05.154 --> 01:14:12.764 - which is the notion that it's not just that the services matter, it matters that they are outside of 01:14:12.764 --> 01:14:20.525 - the jail. I think services inside of the jail and trying to have sites that can accommodate that, that 01:14:20.525 --> 01:14:28.286 - is wonderful and that is great. But if you're prioritizing that and the choices around the jail around 01:14:28.286 --> 01:14:32.958 - that, rather than what hopefully many of these folks, they'll 01:14:33.218 --> 01:14:39.936 - finish their time at the jail, be released, and then the whole life beyond that, right? If we're choosing 01:14:39.936 --> 01:14:46.401 - sites, trying to make sure that certain services are available or certain requirements are being met, 01:14:46.401 --> 01:14:53.056 - and it is at the detriment of when that person is released and they don't have those social connections, 01:14:53.056 --> 01:14:59.458 - they don't have those resources, they can't fend for themselves effectively because they're released 01:14:59.458 --> 01:15:03.134 - on the edge of car sprawl, then I think that we've got it 01:15:03.586 --> 01:15:11.328 - There's been a fundamental mistake on our priorities. So I think of the locations, the Curry and Zetlo 01:15:11.328 --> 01:15:18.919 - location, I think that that stands out to me. And it seems like it's a great one. I would be open to 01:15:18.919 --> 01:15:26.586 - other sites though, as somebody else brought up, if they were still in the pool of available options. 01:15:26.586 --> 01:15:31.998 - But it seems like we've come to a point where we're rushing into having 01:15:32.514 --> 01:15:38.970 - one of those options that prioritizes transit and services and things like that. And then a bunch of 01:15:38.970 --> 01:15:45.362 - other ones that we have to hope that future development will catch up to that. We have to hope that 01:15:45.362 --> 01:15:51.755 - future county and city will have the funding to create those service connections. And those are not 01:15:51.755 --> 01:15:58.466 - guarantees. There are many decade-long cycles that cities go through where there's an economic downturn, 01:15:58.466 --> 01:16:02.046 - like with the 2008 financial crash. And so I think it's 01:16:02.274 --> 01:16:10.342 - better to move discreetly, slowly, and to prioritize the fiscal well-being in that way, too. Anyways, 01:16:10.342 --> 01:16:18.488 - thank you for your time. I want to just say thank you so much for being here. The fact that some other 01:16:18.488 --> 01:16:26.556 - parties are not speaks volumes. Thank you for speaking. All right. Anyone else in the public audience 01:16:26.556 --> 01:16:30.590 - here this evening would like to speak? OK, please. 01:16:40.802 --> 01:16:45.764 - My name is Dr. Jody Madeira, and I'm a Monroe County resident. I'm here as a member of the public and 01:16:45.764 --> 01:16:50.726 - as a professor and social scientist. So I want to speak briefly about jail design, not as an abstract 01:16:50.726 --> 01:16:55.590 - architectural issue or as a matter of efficiency or cost, but in terms of the safety and well-being 01:16:55.590 --> 01:17:00.552 - of the people who will live and work there and the long-term public responsibility and values of this 01:17:00.552 --> 01:17:05.757 - community. So the dynamic of one story versus multi-story is too often reduced to a question of efficiency 01:17:05.757 --> 01:17:10.768 - and cost. I think the central question is whether the design chosen promotes the safety and well-being 01:17:10.768 --> 01:17:15.986 - of our staff and inmates. So jail layout shapes everything inside it. Whether officers can see and respond 01:17:15.986 --> 01:17:20.423 - quickly, whether staff are positioned to interact directly with the people they supervise, 01:17:20.423 --> 01:17:25.397 - whether incarcerated people experience constant noise, isolation, crowding, and stress. And it shapes 01:17:25.397 --> 01:17:30.273 - whether the facility encourages order through human contact or relies on barriers, blind spots, and 01:17:30.273 --> 01:17:31.102 - crisis response. 01:17:31.170 --> 01:17:35.921 - I'm a social scientist, so I love peer-reviewed research. That research is clear that older traditional 01:17:35.921 --> 01:17:40.580 - GL designs, especially multilevel linear cell blocks with long quarters, poor sight lines, and remote 01:17:40.580 --> 01:17:45.239 - surveillance, create serious problems. They separate staff from the people they supervise. They force 01:17:45.239 --> 01:17:50.081 - officers to monitor by walking hallways and peering into cells, rather than by maintaining regular direct 01:17:50.081 --> 01:17:54.786 - contact. They create blind spots, acoustic isolation, and delayed response times. Those conditions are 01:17:54.786 --> 01:17:59.583 - inefficient and loud, and they can be dangerous. Modern direct supervision and podular designs are built 01:17:59.583 --> 01:18:01.136 - around visibility, communication, 01:18:01.136 --> 01:18:05.765 - living units. Officers are placed in or near housing units where they can build knowledge, identify 01:18:05.765 --> 01:18:10.626 - problems earlier, and intervene before situations escalate. This is often called dynamic security, which 01:18:10.626 --> 01:18:15.256 - is based not only on locks and walls, but on staff presence, communication, and trust. This matters 01:18:15.256 --> 01:18:20.163 - for officer and inmate safety, for mental health, and it matters for whether a jail can function humanely 01:18:20.163 --> 01:18:24.977 - and constitutionally over time. Single-level or low-rise modular designs are especially important where 01:18:24.977 --> 01:18:30.023 - feasible because they make this model easier to implement. They allow housing, medical, booking, visitation, 01:18:30.023 --> 01:18:31.088 - programming, reaction, 01:18:31.088 --> 01:18:35.830 - services to be organized horizontally rather than stacked vertically. That can improve sight lines, 01:18:35.830 --> 01:18:40.572 - reduce complicated movement between floors, and make it easier for staff to supervise, communicate, 01:18:40.572 --> 01:18:45.598 - and respond. But again, the most important point is not simply efficiency. It's that design affects risk. 01:18:45.730 --> 01:18:50.667 - This isn't about creating comfort for comfort's sake. It's about reducing harm. Research shows that 01:18:50.667 --> 01:18:55.603 - environmental stressors, constant noise, heat, poor ventilation, lack of privacy, lack of movement, 01:18:55.603 --> 01:19:00.935 - and lack of control over one's immediate environment can increase anxiety, irritability, conflict, illness, 01:19:00.935 --> 01:19:05.872 - and even suicide risk. The same is true for green space and perimeter design. Even passive exposure 01:19:05.872 --> 01:19:10.957 - to vegetation within secure perimeters has been associated with reductions in self-harm, violence, and 01:19:10.957 --> 01:19:15.696 - staff sick leave. That should matter to anyone concerned about human dignity, workplace safety, 01:19:15.696 --> 01:19:20.941 - and public responsibility. Jail design is a decades-long decision. If we build a facility around outdated 01:19:20.941 --> 01:19:26.038 - assumptions, poor visibility, excessive hardening, stacked housing, and inefficient circulation, well, 01:19:26.038 --> 01:19:30.938 - we're going to live with those consequences for generations. But if we build around evidence-based 01:19:30.938 --> 01:19:36.183 - principles, direct supervision, modular housing, safer sightlines, acoustic normalization, accessibility, 01:19:36.183 --> 01:19:38.014 - and humane environmental conditions, 01:19:38.082 --> 01:19:43.092 - We can create a facility that's safer for staff, safer for incarcerated people, and more responsible 01:19:43.092 --> 01:19:48.400 - for the public. And we're in luck. What's best is also what is cheapest and quickest to build. Multi-level 01:19:48.400 --> 01:19:53.361 - facilities are expensive to build, to staff, and to maintain. So the question isn't simply where to 01:19:53.361 --> 01:19:58.372 - build or how cheaply it can be built or how quickly square footage can be stacked. It's what kind of 01:19:58.372 --> 01:20:03.035 - gel we're willing to build. Monroe County can't afford to reproduce the failures of the past. 01:20:03.035 --> 01:20:04.126 - Thank you. Thank you. 01:20:10.146 --> 01:20:17.493 - anyone else online? I don't see anybody there. Anyone else still in the room here that would like to? 01:20:17.493 --> 01:20:24.696 - Committee members, thanks for your time, John Zodi, member of the public. I guess just listening to 01:20:24.696 --> 01:20:31.971 - the public comment tonight made me raise a question with some of the things you've been deliberating 01:20:31.971 --> 01:20:39.390 - with respect to Commissioner Madera's comments and some of the others that spoke before her is sort of 01:20:40.066 --> 01:20:48.080 - maybe challenging ourself to see what height the Curry site could tolerate. If it's not six stories, 01:20:48.080 --> 01:20:56.094 - that seems pretty high, like on my gut, just as a former Board of Zoning Appeals member and a former 01:20:56.094 --> 01:21:04.188 - city employee that dealt with first responders having to respond to things in high buildings and when 01:21:04.188 --> 01:21:07.838 - there are problems facing those that might be 01:21:08.226 --> 01:21:14.126 - dealing with substance use, the importance of first responders getting in there and maintaining safety 01:21:14.126 --> 01:21:20.025 - is important. So I just wonder, it popped into my head as I was sitting here, how low could a facility 01:21:20.025 --> 01:21:25.868 - be at Curry? Do we have to have six stories or could it be, I heard some talk about maybe a two story 01:21:25.868 --> 01:21:31.710 - with a mezzanine or something people were talking about where the sight lines, there's a way to do it 01:21:31.710 --> 01:21:36.350 - where it's not multiple stories, but I just wonder how low it could be at Curry. 01:21:36.514 --> 01:21:41.953 - And if that's a solution, we should kind of work back from when we're talking about square footage and 01:21:41.953 --> 01:21:47.445 - things like that. So for whatever that's worth, maybe it's a question to think about. Because the other 01:21:47.445 --> 01:21:52.989 - sites seem to have a lot of ground, right? And so Curry does not. But how low could we make it at Curry? 01:21:52.989 --> 01:21:58.375 - And what could that site tolerate? So I'll leave that with you for possible consideration. Thanks for 01:21:58.375 --> 01:22:03.761 - your time. Speaking. Anyone else in the public still here? Or online? Anybody new online? I don't see 01:22:03.761 --> 01:22:04.606 - anything there. 01:22:08.866 --> 01:22:21.214 - public comment. And when we're here right now, so should we close out public comment? This is last call. 01:22:23.330 --> 01:22:30.259 - I think we're done with public comment, so I think this part of the session is over, and I thank you 01:22:30.259 --> 01:22:37.463 - all for being here. Thank you all for participating, the ones that did, and we appreciate your comments, 01:22:37.463 --> 01:22:45.010 - and we'll take them under consideration as we proceed with our deliberations to come up with a recommendation 01:22:45.010 --> 01:22:51.390 - in our process. We meet Monday, so hopefully we'll have, pardon me, at noon, yes, thank you. 01:22:51.810 --> 01:23:00.911 - And so we will proceed with our process and report back as we are obligated to do under this charter 01:23:00.911 --> 01:23:08.030 - we've been given. So thank you very much and I'll call this session adjourned.