WEBVTT 00:00:00.578 --> 00:00:07.059 - Good afternoon. It's just shortly after noon, and I'd like to call this collaborative justice project 00:00:07.059 --> 00:00:13.731 - working subcommittee meeting to get to order. My name is Liz vital I'm the county council representative 00:00:13.731 --> 00:00:20.339 - for this committee, and I'm the chair, I'm introducing Sydney's only from the city council mayor Carrie 00:00:20.339 --> 00:00:23.198 - Thompson, Mayor of Bloomington April Wilson. 00:00:23.298 --> 00:00:31.161 - the prosecutor's office and Karen Renbeck from the public defender's office with me here today. Thank 00:00:31.161 --> 00:00:38.870 - you all for being here and thank you for those in person. All right, so we have our agenda in front 00:00:38.870 --> 00:00:46.810 - of us. We need to adopt the agenda. Is there a motion to do that? So moved. Second. All in favor? Aye. 00:00:46.810 --> 00:00:47.966 - Opposed? Okay. 00:00:49.250 --> 00:00:57.572 - And then we got the minutes as presented in the packet. I presume people had reviewed those. And so 00:00:57.572 --> 00:01:06.394 - we have the 24th of June, the 29th of June, July 1st, July 6th, and July 9th to approve. Is there someone 00:01:06.394 --> 00:01:15.050 - who would make that motion? So moved. Second? I'll second. All those in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay, I've 00:01:15.050 --> 00:01:18.878 - adopted or approved the minutes as presented. 00:01:20.482 --> 00:01:30.201 - All right, so let's dig right in. We've got the property discussion for the five remaining properties 00:01:30.201 --> 00:01:40.016 - that we came up with before. So let's just go from our spreadsheet there, how they're listed, and then 00:01:40.016 --> 00:01:46.686 - that'll be no favoritism in my mind. So the Curry Building was on the 00:01:48.130 --> 00:01:57.260 - off of that spreadsheet or the far left, I should say. Does somebody want to begin a discussion there? 00:01:57.260 --> 00:02:06.479 - Councilmember Feidl, I thought we were going to start with the combined rankings and go down that list. 00:02:06.479 --> 00:02:14.014 - I'm fine with that. Is that what we agreed to last time? We can do that, absolutely. 00:02:14.434 --> 00:02:20.861 - That's fine with me. I didn't know if you want to jump right into that or discuss further about the 00:02:20.861 --> 00:02:27.481 - properties where we do that. But maybe that'll come out if we do that. So combined rankings, maybe you 00:02:27.481 --> 00:02:34.102 - can have Larry Allen present because he collected those, right? So up on your screen right now are the 00:02:34.102 --> 00:02:40.786 - point totals for each of the five main sites that we had narrowed it down. This all five active members 00:02:40.786 --> 00:02:43.614 - of the subcommittee voting, as you can see, 00:02:43.970 --> 00:02:52.331 - The current site with expansion to Curry and Fiscus had the most total points with 22 points. That was 00:02:52.331 --> 00:03:01.016 - five points for a first place vote and one point for a fifth place vote and distributed evenly in between. 00:03:01.016 --> 00:03:10.270 - Fullerton or rather Thompson was the second place vote getter with 21, Tap Road South with 13, Fullerton with 10, 00:03:10.562 --> 00:03:18.065 - and Tap Road North with the fewest votes at eight points. Actually, if you scroll down just a page, 00:03:18.065 --> 00:03:25.568 - you can see the distribution of those votes. So how they came out is three members of the committee 00:03:25.568 --> 00:03:33.071 - voted for the current site with the expansion as their top choice. One member voted as their second 00:03:33.071 --> 00:03:36.222 - choice. One member is their third choice. 00:03:36.610 --> 00:03:43.168 - the most popular second choice with four members voting that and one member voting that is their top 00:03:43.168 --> 00:03:49.661 - choice. And then the others are distributed among three through five from there. And as part of the 00:03:49.661 --> 00:03:56.220 - submissions, and if you want to go down one more, not trying to go too fast in this. If you have any 00:03:56.220 --> 00:04:02.908 - questions, there were additional sites that were submitted, and so this this chart a little bit harder 00:04:02.908 --> 00:04:05.310 - to read because of the smaller font. 00:04:05.410 --> 00:04:12.063 - So I apologize for that. But there are three additional sites that were mentioned. Hopewell was mentioned 00:04:12.063 --> 00:04:18.402 - twice as an additional preferred site. North Park once, and then a private site that we discussed in 00:04:18.402 --> 00:04:24.741 - executive session once. Happy to take any questions based on the vote tallies that you may have. And 00:04:24.741 --> 00:04:31.080 - all of these comments on additional sites came from members of the committee. Correct. These are not 00:04:31.080 --> 00:04:34.846 - public comments. These are just from the committee members. 00:04:35.682 --> 00:04:45.718 - as well as the votes, right? Correct. These are only votes from this committee. Okay, thank you. Digest 00:04:45.718 --> 00:04:56.044 - this a little bit and see where we want to go from here. I have some questions about one of the properties 00:04:56.044 --> 00:05:05.598 - since Mr. Cockrell is back. Would this be a good time to kind of sort through that? Yeah, I think. 00:05:06.082 --> 00:05:15.011 - I don't know where else we'd put it, so you might want to go ahead. And I did bring a PowerPoint presentation 00:05:15.011 --> 00:05:23.290 - for why I voted the way that I did also as well at any point, which I'll get into in my presentation. 00:05:23.290 --> 00:05:31.732 - So one of the questions that I have for Thompson is regarding these power lines, where they're located. 00:05:31.732 --> 00:05:34.654 - And it feels a little unclear about 00:05:35.170 --> 00:05:42.312 - how the power lines ultimately will affect being able to construct. Now, I have received emails and 00:05:42.312 --> 00:05:49.453 - information that you cannot, that there's gonna have to be some allowances from the power lines and 00:05:49.453 --> 00:05:56.881 - that'll be determined later on. I also have some emails that say that you're not gonna be able to build 00:05:56.881 --> 00:06:04.236 - until the power lines are done. But it's also my understanding that the Duke has not received proposed 00:06:04.236 --> 00:06:05.022 - site plans 00:06:06.242 --> 00:06:13.550 - or what the property would look like. And I was wondering if that's going to have an impact on the ability 00:06:13.550 --> 00:06:20.858 - to start possibly building part of the justice facility, specifically the jail, and then later co-locating 00:06:20.858 --> 00:06:27.961 - other additional pieces in a phasing design. Can you give me clarity? I don't think I can give you much 00:06:27.961 --> 00:06:33.630 - clarity. I think it depends on the site design. And I think at the end of the day, 00:06:35.298 --> 00:06:41.373 - this is a very generic understanding, right? The very generic understanding is that you can't really 00:06:41.373 --> 00:06:47.568 - disturb the ground around the power lines because there's power lines and you don't want them to fall, 00:06:47.568 --> 00:06:53.703 - right? And so depending on where your site plan is, you may or may not have the... I guess my feeling 00:06:53.703 --> 00:06:59.718 - is that it's more likely than not that you would have to move the power lines before, but I'm not a 00:06:59.718 --> 00:07:02.846 - designer or anything like that. If you could design 00:07:03.170 --> 00:07:08.507 - the jail component so you didn't have to move the power lines to build it, then you wouldn't have to 00:07:08.507 --> 00:07:13.896 - move the power lines to build it. But I think at the end of the day, if you're going to co-locate, by 00:07:13.896 --> 00:07:19.233 - the time you co-locate, you'll have to move the power lines. I don't think you could fit both halves 00:07:19.233 --> 00:07:24.676 - in an area that would not require the power lines be moved. There's an open question as to whether you 00:07:24.676 --> 00:07:29.854 - could design the jail in such a way that you wouldn't have to move the power lines. I don't know. 00:07:31.554 --> 00:07:38.254 - I know you just got back from vacation. There's an email that I shared that I got from a communication 00:07:38.254 --> 00:07:44.824 - with the commissioner and Duke. That was what I'm trying to follow up on. So if you want a chance at 00:07:44.824 --> 00:07:51.524 - it, I can ask later to use any nuance to that. I think what Duke has been very clear in that they need 00:07:51.524 --> 00:07:58.289 - some kind of site design in order to make the determination of whether you need to move the power lines 00:07:58.289 --> 00:08:01.086 - or not. I guess my feeling is that even if 00:08:01.698 --> 00:08:07.863 - you don't necessarily have to move them for phase one. You'd probably want to move it pretty early anyway, 00:08:07.863 --> 00:08:13.798 - just because at the end of the day, where the power lines are, are going to be a hindrance to wherever 00:08:13.798 --> 00:08:20.136 - you end up doing. I think it opens up the property such that in 10 years, if you wanted to do the colocation, 00:08:20.136 --> 00:08:26.243 - you'd want those out of the way already. In 10 years, if you want to do something else with the property, 00:08:26.243 --> 00:08:30.910 - you'd want it out of the way. I think there's a factor with the power lines that 00:08:31.586 --> 00:08:38.927 - And again, I am not saying you wouldn't have to move them prior to building the jail. I don't know, 00:08:38.927 --> 00:08:46.195 - right? So I think, does that answer your question? Thank you. Mr. Cockrell, what was your earliest 00:08:46.195 --> 00:08:53.536 - recollection of Thompson being considered as a site for the jail? I would say, I mean, I started in 00:08:53.536 --> 00:09:00.510 - 2007. I think at that time, we all knew that it had been purchased for the purpose of building 00:09:01.154 --> 00:09:08.521 - either a jail or a juvenile facility or something like that. I want to say 2008, they had a study done 00:09:08.521 --> 00:09:15.746 - on the property that I don't think the community was real happy with, but I think it was clearly the 00:09:15.746 --> 00:09:23.185 - thought was to put either a justice facility or a juvenile facility there. At what point were the power 00:09:23.185 --> 00:09:30.910 - lines noticed to be an issue? I think when we looked at it seriously after we got the reports back in 2021, 00:09:31.522 --> 00:09:39.033 - Okay, it's been five years since then. I guess I'm just curious why they haven't been moved since then, 00:09:39.033 --> 00:09:46.400 - especially given that county council has failed the North Park property twice. I'm just, I'm a little 00:09:46.400 --> 00:09:53.983 - bit curious as to why this work hasn't been done yet. And I would say that the council and commissioners 00:09:53.983 --> 00:09:58.750 - have not expressed that they needed to be moved. Okay, thank you. 00:10:04.802 --> 00:10:14.731 - I would like to comment on what I know, which is really just surface level knowledge of these power 00:10:14.731 --> 00:10:24.660 - lines and this property in question. I know that at least when it was initially looked at the power 00:10:24.660 --> 00:10:32.702 - lines were going to have to be moved in order to provide access to the facility. 00:10:34.082 --> 00:10:42.635 - I think we need an assessment from somebody who actually completes construction projects to say whether 00:10:42.635 --> 00:10:50.858 - or not we can start construction before they are moved. There is a considerable amount of site prep 00:10:50.858 --> 00:10:59.329 - that needs to be done on this property, and site prep can take a much longer time than those of us who 00:10:59.329 --> 00:11:03.934 - don't build large institutional buildings are aware of. 00:11:04.098 --> 00:11:12.849 - So I took your timeline on moving those power lines, I think is probably realistically what it will 00:11:12.849 --> 00:11:21.862 - take. And I think we just need to get somebody engaged who does manage these types of projects to take 00:11:21.862 --> 00:11:30.962 - a look seriously at the project and see if construction could start before those power lines get moved. 00:11:30.962 --> 00:11:33.150 - And I would imagine that 00:11:34.114 --> 00:11:45.150 - Jeff is right that we could not disturb any of the ground beneath those power lines. They have a pretty 00:11:45.150 --> 00:11:55.762 - strong easement there and wouldn't want to for safety. Any other comments about that part before we 00:11:55.762 --> 00:12:01.598 - move on? Anything from the table over here about that? 00:12:03.618 --> 00:12:13.765 - anything else from the table over here about that? I don't think so. Well, I don't know if we need an 00:12:13.765 --> 00:12:23.813 - official motion or not, but it appears that we have two very strong contenders for our top choice. I 00:12:23.813 --> 00:12:32.766 - would like to propose that we spend the bulk of our time discussing those two properties. 00:12:33.026 --> 00:12:41.329 - with the potential of discussing the third at that point. Now maybe we want a complete conversation 00:12:41.329 --> 00:12:49.880 - about Thompson and comments on Thompson and then move on to the downtown properties at Curry and maybe 00:12:49.880 --> 00:12:58.266 - tap south or north, okay. All right, so anything else? Should we just focus on Thompson? I like that 00:12:58.266 --> 00:12:59.262 - idea first. 00:12:59.970 --> 00:13:06.599 - I do have a presentation that covers the properties, including Thompson. So would this be a cut? Can 00:13:06.599 --> 00:13:13.753 - you focus on the Thompson property in your presentation? Would it be OK if I just complete the presentation? 00:13:13.753 --> 00:13:20.841 - Because I think it explains my rankings. So you don't have maybe isolated in your presentation the Thompson 00:13:20.841 --> 00:13:26.814 - piece? We do talk about the Thompson piece. OK. The piece which we're going to talk about. 00:13:27.106 --> 00:13:33.008 - So can we do the Thompson first and then we'll move on to the Korean? We'll see if anybody else has 00:13:33.008 --> 00:13:38.910 - Thompson, then we'll move on to the Korean. Is that possible? It is possible. It might be easier to 00:13:38.910 --> 00:13:44.812 - do the presentation as a whole. It's not an inconvenience. Okay, so I'm okay with that. Is the rest 00:13:44.812 --> 00:13:50.892 - of the committee okay? All right. Can you give us an idea of how long this presentation is? Yeah. It's 00:13:50.892 --> 00:13:52.190 - 21 slides. Get brief. 00:13:53.474 --> 00:13:59.969 - I figure since the county's getting ready to spend over $100 million, I wanted to make sure that I explained 00:13:59.969 --> 00:14:06.225 - to the community what my thought process was and why I ranked them the way that it did, and I was trying 00:14:06.225 --> 00:14:12.243 - to do it in the most transparent manner possible. I'll try to move through quickly, but up to you if 00:14:12.243 --> 00:14:18.202 - you wanna have my presentation after we discuss Thompson, I'm happy to do that as well. So what are 00:14:18.202 --> 00:14:19.870 - we thinking? Do we want to, 00:14:21.826 --> 00:14:28.924 - I'm happy to hear what you have to say. I don't want to indicate that. But I also think that I'm wondering 00:14:28.924 --> 00:14:35.625 - how it will help us get to the final thing, what we need to do, which is to send our rankings to the 00:14:35.625 --> 00:14:42.259 - bigger group of people where they can then figure out what to do from here on. So I'm wondering how 00:14:42.259 --> 00:14:49.092 - that is going to help with that. Because ultimately, we're going to have to vote. And I think it might 00:14:49.092 --> 00:14:50.750 - be helpful understanding 00:14:51.522 --> 00:14:56.709 - what parts of the property we found are concerning, because you might have insight that I might have 00:14:56.709 --> 00:15:02.101 - missed. And I'm happy to hear that for any of the properties. I thought the rankings was just a starting 00:15:02.101 --> 00:15:07.494 - point. OK. But like I said, I'm happy to wait till after our conversation about Thompson if you'd prefer 00:15:07.494 --> 00:15:12.681 - that I do the presentation at that time. What are others thinking here? I'm not the only one here. I 00:15:12.681 --> 00:15:17.817 - have another job that I'm going to have to go back to eventually. So it would be very, very helpful 00:15:17.817 --> 00:15:19.614 - if I could be out of here by 1.30. 00:15:20.578 --> 00:15:26.713 - have a little over an hour. How long do you think it would take you to do your slide presentation? Do 00:15:26.713 --> 00:15:32.909 - you have any idea? No, but I'm sure I can move quickly if you would like. To be helpful to get started 00:15:32.909 --> 00:15:38.923 - then. Yeah, let's just go ahead and if we need to, we'll we'll figure it out from then. OK, yeah, I 00:15:38.923 --> 00:15:45.119 - understand. I appreciate it. Mr. Beck and I actually had court this afternoon, so we've. You also have 00:15:45.119 --> 00:15:49.630 - to get back. No, we got coverage. We're here to be here to the end. OK, I. 00:15:51.970 --> 00:16:06.900 - TSD, if you wouldn't mind promoting me. Did you hear a TSD, please? TSD, did you promote April Wilson, 00:16:06.900 --> 00:16:18.206 - please? Yes. Oh, they might have to give her permission to share your screen. 00:16:43.554 --> 00:16:50.471 - Okay, is that it? The one that's appearing now? Thank you. So I'll try to move quickly as requested. 00:16:50.471 --> 00:16:57.594 - So these are the five properties we've already discussed that we have to consider under the limitations 00:16:57.594 --> 00:17:04.443 - that we've been given by the county council. I wanted to share with you my least favorite property. 00:17:04.443 --> 00:17:05.950 - I'll make this brief. 00:17:06.146 --> 00:17:11.479 - because I know that doesn't seem like it's one, I think it's one we generally agree on. This is the 00:17:11.479 --> 00:17:16.811 - Tap Road North. It was my number five, my least favorite. It's also the one I know the least about. 00:17:16.811 --> 00:17:22.251 - The reason that I made this recommendation is based on some of the information here on the right-hand 00:17:22.251 --> 00:17:27.796 - side. The site being fragmented, I have a concern about co-location being able to attach the buildings. 00:17:27.796 --> 00:17:33.182 - Even though I will note the GIS information the commissioners gave said this was a maybe. So I'm not 00:17:33.182 --> 00:17:36.062 - sure if this is a shall or maybe, but it's a concern. 00:17:36.482 --> 00:17:42.485 - also concerned about minimal opportunity for site development circulation and access as well as the 00:17:42.485 --> 00:17:48.607 - fact that the properties at least as proposed look a little close to the waterway and it being so far 00:17:48.607 --> 00:17:54.610 - from the center of downtown as a totality made me eliminate that property. Fullerton it sounds like 00:17:54.610 --> 00:18:00.913 - we're not going to be focusing on also I'll just quickly skip to the next slide but I'm happy to discuss 00:18:00.913 --> 00:18:03.614 - it further. It comes down to access concerns 00:18:03.714 --> 00:18:09.687 - If I remember correctly, there's only one way to get in and out, and I'm really concerned about everyone 00:18:09.687 --> 00:18:15.376 - leaving at the exact same time emergency view support. So that moves us to Curry, which sounds like 00:18:15.376 --> 00:18:21.236 - we're gonna focus on those two today. So if you don't mind, I'll move through there. I wanted to start 00:18:21.236 --> 00:18:26.924 - with being really clear about the wording that we're using for Curry, because I know we'd gone back 00:18:26.924 --> 00:18:33.182 - and forth on this. This is an image that I got off GIS. On the right-hand side, we have the Justice Building, 00:18:33.954 --> 00:18:40.796 - on this yellow, this is what I mean when I say Curry. And here in the green rectangle is what we consider 00:18:40.796 --> 00:18:47.445 - Fiscus. Green is where the public defenders are. I'd also note that there is a small courtyard in this 00:18:47.445 --> 00:18:53.965 - left-hand corner, which if we were seriously considering Curry, I wanted to make sure we figured out 00:18:53.965 --> 00:18:59.774 - what our space would be. And so I also included a calculation of the base square footage. 00:19:00.866 --> 00:19:07.725 - I've received two different numbers on the total square footage of the Justice building, and this is 00:19:07.725 --> 00:19:14.583 - all floors. The highest one was 137,800 square feet, so that is the one that I used. In terms of the 00:19:14.583 --> 00:19:21.374 - Curry, my understanding is the base is 10,406. Legal was kind enough to provide that number for me. 00:19:21.506 --> 00:19:28.849 - The square footage of the base of Fiscus is 4920. At least that's the best information I have at this 00:19:28.849 --> 00:19:36.264 - time. And this patio, I went with 2984. I understand that there is an indication of the patio at 2000, 00:19:36.264 --> 00:19:43.679 - but I'm not sure if that includes what you see to the right of that orange box, which is enclosed. But 00:19:43.679 --> 00:19:48.574 - to be the most fair to the property, I included the highest number. 00:19:49.986 --> 00:19:59.219 - So what that means is we have a base square footage of Curry Fiske's courtyard of 18,310 square feet 00:19:59.219 --> 00:20:08.817 - approximately. We talked about utilizing the August 29th, 2025 Jail Justice Campus total square footage. 00:20:08.817 --> 00:20:14.942 - So this is all of it. And that was 2,237,161 gross square footage. 00:20:15.074 --> 00:20:19.777 - Do you think it's important to note there's a difference between net square footage and gross square 00:20:19.777 --> 00:20:24.434 - footage? At times, I received numbers and I don't know which one I received. When I do know, I have 00:20:24.434 --> 00:20:29.416 - marked it accordingly. My understanding of net square footage is if you go in a room and literally measure 00:20:29.416 --> 00:20:33.374 - it, but gross square footage is the extra that goes into the walls and other spaces. 00:20:34.626 --> 00:20:41.098 - Using that numbers the gross square footage if the justice building stays at its current square footage 00:20:41.098 --> 00:20:47.320 - of 137,800 square feet, this will leave 99,361 square feet for the remaining justice departments. I 00:20:47.320 --> 00:20:53.605 - think that that if you divide that by their 18 310 that gives us about five and a half floors, which 00:20:53.605 --> 00:20:54.974 - would have to be six. 00:20:56.674 --> 00:21:02.931 - I wanted to share that I think there's some caveats in my calculations. First of all, I am not a processional 00:21:02.931 --> 00:21:08.960 - site evaluator. Someone needs to do that. But I also don't know if we can take away the courtyard. That's 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:14.819 - something that is beyond information I have at this time. I don't know if there's going to be setbacks 00:21:14.819 --> 00:21:20.507 - that might also take away squared footage. And like I said, the numbers varied a little bit, so the 00:21:20.507 --> 00:21:26.366 - footage may change as well. I tried to be as generous to the proposal as I could in this presentation. 00:21:27.202 --> 00:21:33.134 - The other thing to consider is that the original project at North Park was based predominantly on a 00:21:33.134 --> 00:21:39.126 - single floor design, so I think we have to acknowledge to the public that that single floor. Now, if 00:21:39.126 --> 00:21:45.118 - it's a multi story, it may make the square footage increase one you're gonna have to have elevators. 00:21:45.410 --> 00:21:50.664 - You're also going to have stairwells that weren't originally planned. That might cut into our square 00:21:50.664 --> 00:21:56.022 - footage. And there's also, I would argue, going to have to be designed redundancies with both the jail 00:21:56.022 --> 00:22:01.433 - and remaining justice departments. An example for that is if you have a multi-story jail, are you going 00:22:01.433 --> 00:22:06.947 - to need additional spaces for medical on different floors? That might have been accounted for in a single 00:22:06.947 --> 00:22:12.461 - floor, but I don't know if there's going to be changes. You're also going to have redundancies in justice 00:22:12.461 --> 00:22:14.750 - departments. I'm thinking public bathrooms. 00:22:15.202 --> 00:22:21.041 - as an example where you might have multiple floors. So this square footage may increase. I also have 00:22:21.041 --> 00:22:26.823 - questions about whether or not the square footage includes the election division. That might take a 00:22:26.823 --> 00:22:33.125 - little bit of the square footage off. And I do not believe, but I am not sure, that the outdoor recreational 00:22:33.125 --> 00:22:39.311 - space on that August 29th presentation looked like it was outside. So I do not believe that square footage 00:22:39.311 --> 00:22:41.566 - was included. On a multi-story design, 00:22:41.890 --> 00:22:48.123 - I think outdoor recreation was something that came up, so that was something I wanted to raise as a 00:22:48.123 --> 00:22:54.791 - concern. I would also note that the parking garage has 240 parking spots right now. We still have overflow 00:22:54.791 --> 00:23:01.149 - in two different locations. That means if we stay where we are, we have to consider parking long-term 00:23:01.149 --> 00:23:07.568 - for future employees. There's also the question of whether the City Council will approve a seven-story 00:23:07.568 --> 00:23:09.438 - Justice slash Curry building. 00:23:11.586 --> 00:23:17.496 - Then I have some information of inflammation, mutation, and costs. If you would like, I can keep going 00:23:17.496 --> 00:23:23.406 - through that, or I can skip to Thompson just to go through it. I'd like to come back to the costs when 00:23:23.406 --> 00:23:29.316 - we get to that conversation, because I think it's important. Chair Feidl, would you like me to do that 00:23:29.316 --> 00:23:35.169 - now, or? Well, I think there's a part of me that's a little concerned about how some of this is based 00:23:35.169 --> 00:23:39.358 - on how it's all going to be built, and our charge is to pick a location. 00:23:40.386 --> 00:23:47.097 - So I would really like to refocus that in the rest of your presentation going forward if we can. I'm 00:23:47.097 --> 00:23:53.875 - glad you brought that up because I think one of the concerns I have is if we pick a site like Currie, 00:23:53.875 --> 00:24:00.984 - we are pinning in the design options. We are making particular choices that will have an effect long-term. 00:24:00.984 --> 00:24:08.094 - So I think it's pretty integral. My position would be it's pretty integral to site design. And by example, 00:24:08.226 --> 00:24:14.171 - I think we're getting into cost. So one of the things that I heard about the Curry site is that some 00:24:14.171 --> 00:24:20.176 - people have argued we should use the sites the county already owns because those will be cheaper than 00:24:20.176 --> 00:24:26.356 - purchasing another property we don't own. And I don't want to mislead the public that there aren't going 00:24:26.356 --> 00:24:32.420 - to be additional costs in using some of the county sites that we do own like Thompson and Curry. Curry 00:24:32.420 --> 00:24:33.950 - is a really good example. 00:24:34.498 --> 00:24:40.887 - If we go to the RQAW, this is page 158, they specifically say, and this is just the RQAW, that renovating 00:24:40.887 --> 00:24:46.733 - the existing Monroe County Jail will require relocating the existing courts for two years during 00:24:46.733 --> 00:24:52.760 - construction. It will also require relocating and transporting the existing inmates to other county 00:24:52.760 --> 00:24:54.206 - jails around the state. 00:24:54.626 --> 00:25:00.562 - And then they give calculations. I won't go into the details because we're moving quickly. But the cost 00:25:00.562 --> 00:25:06.383 - to renovate the jail in the same study on a different page had it between $58 million and $67 million 00:25:06.383 --> 00:25:12.205 - as a range. And the cost to move inmates during the renovation was about $11 million, $3 million. And 00:25:12.205 --> 00:25:18.026 - then in moving the employees of the justice building was another $5 million and some change. And that 00:25:18.026 --> 00:25:24.190 - does not account for the cost to build a new jail if it was an annex and the administrative offices on top. 00:25:24.962 --> 00:25:30.960 - So I do think as a result of this particular design, the financing, I think you're gonna have to look 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:37.075 - at how the design is gonna affect. I think this will be very expensive. And I think it's more expensive 00:25:37.075 --> 00:25:43.366 - than maybe we've previously talked about in a public meeting. And ultimately the council and commissioners 00:25:43.366 --> 00:25:49.423 - may do that. But I just wanted to make sure that we had an honest conversation of how picking the site 00:25:49.423 --> 00:25:51.422 - may ultimately be more expensive. 00:25:51.906 --> 00:25:58.407 - besides the fact that you are going to disrupt the most of the justice system to accomplish it, moving 00:25:58.407 --> 00:26:04.781 - out all the employees. So I gave an option two, which I'll skip, but I wanted to make sure we talked 00:26:04.781 --> 00:26:11.281 - about that. In terms of Thompson, I will tell you I voted for this to be my second property. It really 00:26:11.281 --> 00:26:17.656 - is in my heart, my favorite one. I've really struggled with, I've gone back and forth between my top 00:26:17.656 --> 00:26:19.486 - recommendation and Thompson. 00:26:19.586 --> 00:26:27.415 - And I saw from the rankings that actually there's at least, as the mayor was saying, I think we're starting 00:26:27.415 --> 00:26:30.750 - to gather around at least that as a property. 00:26:30.850 --> 00:26:38.378 - The reason I like this property is because it's close to downtown, it's close to transportation, it's 00:26:38.378 --> 00:26:46.128 - the ability to be able to walk from here to some of the services. I like the fact that you can co-locate 00:26:46.128 --> 00:26:53.508 - in the future. I think that checks a lot of really important priority boxes for me. But ultimately, 00:26:53.508 --> 00:27:00.446 - the reason that I made it second is because I'm concerned about the power lines. I frankly am 00:27:01.634 --> 00:27:08.445 - quite concerned about delay. So I have more to my presentation. I'm going to pause here so that way 00:27:08.445 --> 00:27:15.257 - we can talk about Thompson. And then if it's OK, I'd like to come back to my property when we get a 00:27:15.257 --> 00:27:22.272 - chance. The rest of it. Does someone else want to talk about Thompson at this point? I think I've said 00:27:22.272 --> 00:27:28.062 - the majority of what I'd like to say about Thompson, but it is very frustrating that 00:27:28.386 --> 00:27:36.252 - this property has been under consideration for as long as we've been talking about building a new jail, 00:27:36.252 --> 00:27:44.420 - and yet integral infrastructure things that need to change have not been accomplished. So it is frustrating 00:27:44.420 --> 00:27:52.211 - because I do feel that this would be a very strong contender to be the next jail location. And because 00:27:52.211 --> 00:27:58.110 - due diligence was not done prior to this moment, it doesn't feel like we can. 00:27:59.042 --> 00:28:10.071 - Tomson also was my number two choice. I think if for some reason there is a foregone conclusion, which 00:28:10.071 --> 00:28:21.422 - is not my understanding that it is a must to have everything on one floor, Tomson would be my top choice. 00:28:21.422 --> 00:28:28.382 - That's obviously not possible at Curry, which was my top choice. 00:28:28.578 --> 00:28:44.354 - And so the ask is a is a minimal ask. Same process acknowledging that. Um, and I think. Even with an 00:28:44.354 --> 00:28:53.726 - accelerated time frame, you're two years out from, um, from 00:28:54.210 --> 00:29:02.020 - probably beyond that. So starting the move of the power lines now would be prudent. Making that property 00:29:02.020 --> 00:29:09.457 - marketable in the future for the county is going to necessitate moving those power lines anyway. So 00:29:09.457 --> 00:29:16.895 - my recommendation would be get those power lines taken care of. It's a great housing site as people 00:29:16.895 --> 00:29:19.870 - in the community probably already know. 00:29:20.258 --> 00:29:27.805 - purchased the first part of Osage Place when I was still director at Habitat, looked at the entire property. 00:29:27.805 --> 00:29:34.729 - It's a great residential development and opportunity, but those power lines are going to need to be 00:29:34.729 --> 00:29:41.999 - moved anyway to make the most of that. Okay. Anyone else about Thompson? Renbeck, did you have anything? 00:29:41.999 --> 00:29:46.430 - I have more to say about Curry, but Thompson was my top choice. 00:29:52.066 --> 00:29:59.225 - anything else about Thompson. This Wilson. Did have well, I agree with the concerns about the power 00:29:59.225 --> 00:30:06.527 - lines. I did have one little question about this parcel right here. There was some discussion at some 00:30:06.527 --> 00:30:09.534 - point about that needing to be purchased. 00:30:10.914 --> 00:30:17.398 - you're shaking your head, Mr. Cockrell, that no longer needs, and that's my understanding as of today 00:30:17.398 --> 00:30:24.327 - is that it does not need to be purchased in order to move forward. That property that you've got highlighted 00:30:24.327 --> 00:30:30.810 - in black was never intended to be purchased. It's the one immediately to the left of that. Okay. Kind 00:30:30.810 --> 00:30:37.294 - of right behind what is now Norvo Nordisk. Thank you. So it's that little one just immediately to the 00:30:37.294 --> 00:30:39.646 - left. Okay. You might have to point. 00:30:41.122 --> 00:30:48.284 - Oh, thank you. Small rectangle immediately to the left of the pink. And that would be contingent on 00:30:48.284 --> 00:30:55.875 - whether you need access off strong drive that would if you and there. There are some environmental issues 00:30:55.875 --> 00:31:03.037 - that would need to be explored in that area, whether I mean there's. There are environmental things 00:31:03.037 --> 00:31:05.758 - there that you would need to look at. 00:31:09.858 --> 00:31:16.166 - random things to add on location on Thompson and I guess I ran ran the numbers, not just for what's 00:31:16.166 --> 00:31:22.538 - in city limits, but what's the actual distance from the courthouse, which is what I think we can all 00:31:22.538 --> 00:31:23.358 - identify as. 00:31:23.586 --> 00:31:31.229 - the center of downtown. The current jail is 0.2 miles away. The Thompson property is 1.6 miles away 00:31:31.229 --> 00:31:39.330 - from the courthouse. Tap Road North is 2.9 miles. Tap Road South is 3.2 miles and Fullerton is 4.2 miles. 00:31:39.330 --> 00:31:47.126 - So as the downtown representative, I just want to put that out there because something can be in city 00:31:47.126 --> 00:31:52.094 - limits without close access to anything. And so I just wanted to 00:31:52.578 --> 00:32:01.866 - share that. Additionally, according to our metrics, Thompson and the Curry plus renovations are the 00:32:01.866 --> 00:32:11.247 - only two properties that currently have access to public transportation. So just some things to keep 00:32:11.247 --> 00:32:21.278 - in mind as we're moving forward. Anyone else? Any further thoughts about Thompson? So shall we proceed with 00:32:22.850 --> 00:32:31.727 - or do we just want to focus on these two? I would move that we shift our conversation to Curry now and 00:32:31.727 --> 00:32:39.828 - then move to the other three properties as time allows. Second. All in favor? Aye. All right, 00:32:39.828 --> 00:32:48.532 - Curry it is. Who wants to go and talk about Curry? I can open our discussion with Curry. This was my 00:32:48.532 --> 00:32:49.566 - top choice. 00:32:50.370 --> 00:32:59.613 - It's a top choice with caveats, though. As I mentioned in the last meeting, we really do need an expert 00:32:59.613 --> 00:33:08.501 - to come in and tell us what's feasible in this area to work with city planning department to figure 00:33:08.501 --> 00:33:17.566 - out exactly what's going to be required in terms of zoning. I have a vision of this combined property 00:33:17.566 --> 00:33:19.966 - as being able to construct 00:33:20.546 --> 00:33:31.125 - part of the building without disrupting the current jail, get that inhabitable, and then begin renovations 00:33:31.125 --> 00:33:41.011 - of the existing justice center. I have no idea if that's feasible. And we really do need experts to 00:33:41.011 --> 00:33:49.118 - come in and opine on that. Additionally, I think there's potentially connectivity 00:33:49.282 --> 00:34:02.549 - over that alley, that would create logistical ease in many cases if that's possible. And I think that 00:34:02.549 --> 00:34:09.182 - as we're talking about square footages, et cetera, 00:34:09.314 --> 00:34:21.970 - we have to know how high we can go there. And the cost benefit analysis of going significantly high, 00:34:21.970 --> 00:34:34.500 - what is best practice in terms of where the jail goes versus the office buildings, et cetera. There 00:34:34.500 --> 00:34:39.262 - are other office spaces available and 00:34:39.426 --> 00:34:48.894 - you know, easily accessible to this area should we end up moving the justice, essentially expanding 00:34:48.894 --> 00:34:59.024 - the justice center where it is with an expansion of of curry. So I am, you know, I think we could probably 00:34:59.024 --> 00:35:07.166 - develop a similar scenario to what we have, which is fairly adjacent office space for 00:35:07.362 --> 00:35:18.387 - for folks that are already adjacent and perhaps some others as well. I do want to comment, we've had 00:35:18.387 --> 00:35:29.521 - a lot of public comments about the need to be close to services. To my knowledge, those services have 00:35:29.521 --> 00:35:31.486 - not been defined. 00:35:31.714 --> 00:35:40.486 - So somebody has identified the Bloomington bike project as a service that people use. I understand New 00:35:40.486 --> 00:35:49.003 - Leaf New Life also is a service that people access. I haven't run the numbers, but I would actually 00:35:49.003 --> 00:35:58.201 - guess that New Leaf New Life is a quicker walk from Thompson than it is from the existing justice building. 00:35:58.201 --> 00:36:00.926 - So same with Community Kitchen. 00:36:02.434 --> 00:36:10.814 - If we want to truly assess the affinity to services, we need to identify the services we're talking 00:36:10.814 --> 00:36:19.362 - about. But I felt like both of these choices, Thompson and the existing Justice Center, are proximate 00:36:19.362 --> 00:36:27.826 - to the services that I know about that people are accessing. It also ought to be said, many services 00:36:27.826 --> 00:36:31.262 - have located close to the Justice Center 00:36:31.554 --> 00:36:39.874 - that's where the justice center is. And I expect that some of those would move. So I think that needs 00:36:39.874 --> 00:36:48.438 - to be said. It's not a downtown or nothing in terms of access to services. I will add a couple of things 00:36:48.438 --> 00:36:56.920 - in regard to Miss Wilson's question about whether or not the City Council would vote to approve a seven 00:36:56.920 --> 00:36:58.878 - story variance. I can't 00:36:59.298 --> 00:37:06.397 - you know, say one way or another, but I will just read that in our last resolution, um, Resolution 202607, 00:37:06.397 --> 00:37:13.097 - a resolution in support of county council counterparts efforts to keep the county's criminal justice 00:37:13.097 --> 00:37:20.129 - building within city limits and close proximity to social services. Section two states the common council 00:37:20.129 --> 00:37:21.854 - will work with the county 00:37:22.114 --> 00:37:28.408 - council and the county commissioners to support an expedited zoning and permitting process 00:37:28.408 --> 00:37:35.463 - for the construction of a new jail within city limits. So while I can't explicitly confirm one way or 00:37:35.463 --> 00:37:42.657 - another how that body would vote, I believe we did with a 9-0 vote, confirm our intentions to work with 00:37:42.657 --> 00:37:48.190 - the county to make this work. That include irrelevant of what the bed count is? 00:37:51.938 --> 00:38:04.355 - I would not be able to answer that for all my colleagues. For yourself, like if you get a 448 bed, very 00:38:04.355 --> 00:38:16.773 - building, is that going to be something that working with county commission? It will be something that. 00:38:16.773 --> 00:38:21.310 - I don't personally believe that. 148. 00:38:21.442 --> 00:38:31.012 - beds, but I recognize that I'm one member of many different bodies that are working towards this, and 00:38:31.012 --> 00:38:40.582 - I'm happy to make compromises as needed. That is not what I would like to see in the end, but if it's 00:38:40.582 --> 00:38:49.214 - down to City Council has to vote for a variance, we need to. I appreciate the conversation. 00:38:49.570 --> 00:38:56.901 - Sorry, people keep wanting to look at people. I appreciate the conversation about Courier. Could we 00:38:56.901 --> 00:39:04.305 - talk a little bit, Mayor, you were talking about there was some other offices that are close by that 00:39:04.305 --> 00:39:11.710 - it could be used. So one of the concerns that I have is it feels a little like we might be repeating 00:39:11.710 --> 00:39:15.742 - the same conversation that happened 40 years ago. And, 00:39:17.538 --> 00:39:24.584 - And we've kind of boxed everyone in in that building. It's not just that the jail is overcrowded. It's 00:39:24.584 --> 00:39:31.562 - that the county offices below don't have enough space as well. And it seems like if an alternative or 00:39:31.562 --> 00:39:38.677 - an option for Curry is, well, there's other places we can move us, in some ways it's also acknowledging 00:39:38.677 --> 00:39:46.270 - the concern that maybe it's really not enough space to be able to have all the justice partners by each other. 00:39:46.754 --> 00:39:52.546 - And that's where I think I'm a little concerned, or very concerned, is I think it will cost a lot more 00:39:52.546 --> 00:39:58.282 - than anyone expects. I think by nature of doing the project the way that we're doing it, you're going 00:39:58.282 --> 00:40:03.962 - to have to do more of it than you intend in phasing. If you build a jail annex, you're going to have 00:40:03.962 --> 00:40:09.642 - to move all the employees out of Curry Fiscus. And then when you put the jail annex, you're going to 00:40:09.642 --> 00:40:14.366 - have to put all those employees back. Unless you choose to put them someplace else, 00:40:14.498 --> 00:40:22.053 - And then that means the site wasn't originally big enough. And so that's why I think I was trying to 00:40:22.053 --> 00:40:29.832 - explore what the ideal was, because I think either option we go with, I think we just don't have enough 00:40:29.832 --> 00:40:37.462 - space. And I think we're gonna have additional costs of personnel if we split up the jail between two 00:40:37.462 --> 00:40:41.950 - different places. Inmates have to be checked on every hour, 00:40:42.050 --> 00:40:48.372 - and not at a regular time, right? So that's going to vary. That means you're going to have more personnel 00:40:48.372 --> 00:40:54.814 - if we already have a multi-story jail. We're going to have more personnel if we have them in two locations. 00:40:54.814 --> 00:41:00.898 - And I think what I'm worried about is I think one of our shared values is we want more money going to 00:41:00.898 --> 00:41:07.042 - services. And if we're spending more money on personnel costs, if we're spending more money on forcing 00:41:07.042 --> 00:41:11.038 - the jail to be in Curry Fiscus, that's also money that's not going 00:41:11.490 --> 00:41:20.436 - to rehabilitation services. And it feels like putting people in other buildings is a conceit that it's 00:41:20.436 --> 00:41:29.643 - not big enough. I was wondering what your thoughts were on trying to work through that. I'm not convinced 00:41:29.643 --> 00:41:39.198 - that everything can't go on the Curry Fiscus Justice Center site. Again, I think none of us are professionals 00:41:39.198 --> 00:41:41.022 - in space planning or 00:41:41.186 --> 00:41:51.763 - or construction logistics. Admittedly, any time you are renovating a space or building new, you will 00:41:51.763 --> 00:42:02.340 - have to have temporarily relocating offices. So that's going to be true if we went with this site no 00:42:02.340 --> 00:42:09.566 - matter what. So those offices will have to be temporarily relocated. 00:42:10.978 --> 00:42:20.633 - I don't work in the justice center. I thankfully have stayed out of the justice building mostly. And 00:42:20.633 --> 00:42:30.289 - I don't know the implications of having public defender and some prosecuting offices in the building 00:42:30.289 --> 00:42:34.686 - behind. So if it's not ideal, it's not ideal. 00:42:35.746 --> 00:42:44.614 - It just appears to me to be the best case scenario and most efficient to move forward is this site, 00:42:44.614 --> 00:42:53.747 - especially given the challenges at Thompson in terms of timing. So when it came down to a vote for me, 00:42:53.747 --> 00:43:02.615 - that is why this got my top vote. I'm not sold on the justice building needing to be downtown. It's 00:43:02.615 --> 00:43:05.630 - not part of why I voted that way. 00:43:11.490 --> 00:43:17.435 - I just want to say a little something about the Curry building. And if we did something and put up a 00:43:17.435 --> 00:43:23.379 - multi-story building for the jail, we have elevators now, but who's to say we can't have escalators? 00:43:23.379 --> 00:43:29.383 - I was just in a building. I was in the CBS building downtown here recently, and there's escalators in 00:43:29.383 --> 00:43:35.445 - there. Why can't we have escalators? Why does it have to be an elevator to move everything up and down 00:43:35.445 --> 00:43:39.742 - floors? Because the escalator could turn into steps if it wasn't moving. 00:43:40.674 --> 00:43:47.314 - So I don't understand why we're hung up on the elevator issue. I just wanted to bring that up a little. 00:43:47.314 --> 00:43:54.210 - I mean, one issue is the meals that are brought to inmates are brought in carts on wheels. So that wouldn't 00:43:54.210 --> 00:44:00.851 - work on an escalator. And so do we know that escalators can't be built with bigger treads? I don't know 00:44:00.851 --> 00:44:07.236 - the answer to that. It also is a security issue. I was in the jail this weekend. You don't have the 00:44:07.236 --> 00:44:09.726 - ability to call the elevator yourself. 00:44:09.858 --> 00:44:18.840 - the guards have to call down and order the elevator to come. So in terms of security and inmates not 00:44:18.840 --> 00:44:27.822 - being able to move themselves, my guess would be it's an integral part of the system. OK. All right. 00:44:27.822 --> 00:44:36.893 - Well, I just wanted to brought out there and discussed. Remember, those elevators are not just moving 00:44:36.893 --> 00:44:39.294 - food and inmates to court. 00:44:39.394 --> 00:44:44.859 - But if medical is on a different floor in a multi-story jail, you might have to move someone through 00:44:44.859 --> 00:44:50.431 - those elevators. So if you have someone, for example, one of the big concerns I have about the justice 00:44:50.431 --> 00:44:55.950 - building in jail right now is lack of ADA compliance. It is very hard and disheartening, honestly, to 00:44:55.950 --> 00:45:01.415 - work in a building where you know it's not ADA compliant. And you have people who are coming in with 00:45:01.415 --> 00:45:06.879 - disabilities trying to access a courtroom, and they have issues navigating with a wheelchair. If you 00:45:06.879 --> 00:45:08.286 - have someone in the jail, 00:45:08.578 --> 00:45:15.756 - and that elevator breaks down and you have to get them to another floor, I think that is one of those 00:45:15.756 --> 00:45:22.794 - practical aspects of a multi-story facility that I'd like to keep in mind when we're picking a jail 00:45:22.794 --> 00:45:29.831 - site. And that goes back to kind of my concern. I think the space is so small. You might be forcing 00:45:29.831 --> 00:45:36.798 - it in a way to achieve one goal and really hurting the people who are gonna be in it at that cost. 00:45:37.186 --> 00:45:43.764 - so anything else about um we've been talking about or should we move on or anything from you miss man 00:45:43.764 --> 00:45:50.278 - back wayman heard much from you um i want to talk about i can give my thoughts on curry i suppose um 00:45:50.278 --> 00:45:56.791 - so i chose as i said i chose thompson first and curry second um the primary reason for putting curry 00:45:56.791 --> 00:46:01.886 - second is i still have a lot of unanswered questions about curry i still don't 00:46:02.082 --> 00:46:07.515 - fully understand what's, and I know we are not designers or architects or construction people, but I 00:46:07.515 --> 00:46:13.002 - still am unclear what exactly would be put in that space. Which offices, would it be a jail, would it 00:46:13.002 --> 00:46:18.704 - be a jail annex? I've not really had an answer of what would happen with any of the departments currently 00:46:18.704 --> 00:46:24.083 - there. And the big one we haven't really talked about is probation. The entire probation department 00:46:24.083 --> 00:46:29.462 - is in Curry right now on the second floor. And that's a big department. And it's something that the 00:46:29.462 --> 00:46:31.614 - public would need to be able to access. 00:46:31.714 --> 00:46:37.831 - even if it was moved temporarily. I also haven't heard much renovation of the justice building would 00:46:37.831 --> 00:46:43.947 - actually cost. I know there's been prior estimates from several years ago, but I'm not for sure what 00:46:43.947 --> 00:46:50.003 - was involved in those estimates and also how costs may have risen since then. And then I don't know 00:46:50.003 --> 00:46:56.180 - whether inmates would need to be relocated to other jails for the entire length of renovation. And at 00:46:56.180 --> 00:46:59.390 - least from the public defender's office perspective, 00:46:59.714 --> 00:47:06.559 - I don't think I can support really any plan that would require clients to be moved out of county. That 00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:13.270 - eliminates their access to attorneys, access to courts, and I think that creates a lot of challenges 00:47:13.270 --> 00:47:20.181 - transportation-wise. The important metrics for us are access, access to clients, clients getting access 00:47:20.181 --> 00:47:26.827 - to us, and then we also would support anything that has adequate space for future co-location, even 00:47:26.827 --> 00:47:29.086 - if it's not right at this moment. 00:47:29.666 --> 00:47:37.112 - I chose Thompson first, Curry second, because of all those questions I just kind of ran through. And 00:47:37.112 --> 00:47:44.706 - then to me, the last three are all relatively similar, just to finish my ranking. All those last three 00:47:44.706 --> 00:47:52.152 - are pretty similar in their distance to downtown. They're all privately owned. They all have sort of 00:47:52.152 --> 00:47:59.230 - similar access to utilities. But yeah, so that's my opinion. OK, anyone else before we proceed? 00:48:03.618 --> 00:48:10.258 - to answer one more question. I think the mayor was asking about services. So the two big services I 00:48:10.258 --> 00:48:16.898 - would say that our clients use a lot are Beacon and Centerstone. So I know Beacon is moving at some 00:48:16.898 --> 00:48:23.738 - point. And I don't know, I didn't run the numbers either to know which is closer, Thompson or downtown 00:48:23.738 --> 00:48:30.577 - to Centerstone or to Beacon. But I think there's a good chance that things may relocate. Sure, I would 00:48:30.577 --> 00:48:32.702 - agree with that. I doubt either 00:48:32.866 --> 00:48:44.842 - one of those two would relocate with the justice center move. Beacon's been planning this for years 00:48:44.842 --> 00:48:57.057 - and centers pretty established. I can just offer quick comments on the other three properties sort of 00:48:57.057 --> 00:49:02.206 - in a group. My third choice was Fullerton. 00:49:02.402 --> 00:49:11.802 - for a couple of reasons. Once you get that far out, I didn't see a major difference between TAP North, 00:49:11.802 --> 00:49:21.292 - South, and Fullerton. And Fullerton's been fully laid out in terms of site design for a potential jail. 00:49:21.292 --> 00:49:31.422 - It's gone through the full planning process until the city council turned it down. It was an old city council. 00:49:32.706 --> 00:49:43.243 - the same people on the council now. Let's just call them former. Former city council. And so the legwork 00:49:43.243 --> 00:49:53.379 - on that has been done and my understanding is it was the top choice of many for a long time. So that 00:49:53.379 --> 00:49:55.486 - got my number three. 00:49:55.650 --> 00:50:07.154 - number four was tap road south, because I think logistically and topographically, it ekes out tap north. 00:50:07.154 --> 00:50:18.110 - But frankly, if I had the ability to give those both an equal score coming in tied for last, that's 00:50:18.110 --> 00:50:24.574 - what I would have done. And again, those Fullerton tap and 00:50:24.674 --> 00:50:32.992 - both camps are all private. Correct. I shared a lot of reasonings with Mayor Thompson. Fullerton was 00:50:32.992 --> 00:50:41.475 - also my third choice. Just because of the Patriot report and phase one and phase two studies that have 00:50:41.475 --> 00:50:49.876 - been done in regard to the geotechnical and environmental studies that would need to be completed. It 00:50:49.876 --> 00:50:50.782 - looks like 00:50:51.170 --> 00:51:01.461 - there are a lot of unknowns for the rest of the properties, excluding Thompson, but it looks like more 00:51:01.461 --> 00:51:11.453 - will need to be done. And so Fullerton got my three points. So Fullerton was one that was presented 00:51:11.453 --> 00:51:14.750 - to the city council and the vote 00:51:15.234 --> 00:51:22.743 - it was presented I think in October of 22 and the vote voting it down was I think December 21st of 2022. 00:51:22.743 --> 00:51:29.966 - It seems like the city might be more open to that property is what you're saying now. Because one of 00:51:29.966 --> 00:51:37.118 - the points was that it was an entry point to Bloomington. That was one of the things that was said. 00:51:37.118 --> 00:51:44.126 - Just trying to get a sense of how you felt about that as of this moment. That's true. I certainly 00:51:45.122 --> 00:51:52.298 - I'm not aggressively opposed to it. There are four council members out of nine who would have voted 00:51:52.298 --> 00:51:59.473 - on that proposal one way or another. But I don't recall it being a unanimous vote. And so there may 00:51:59.473 --> 00:52:06.864 - be some flexibility. It was. I'm pretty sure. Well, there are still five new council members. So there 00:52:06.864 --> 00:52:14.686 - could be a lot of flexibility in terms of that. And it's been four years. So there's also the potential that 00:52:15.106 --> 00:52:22.727 - Some of my colleagues have changed their minds since then. I have heard from some of the colleagues 00:52:22.727 --> 00:52:30.881 - that given the situation now, they would view Fullerton differently, not a commitment to vote differently, 00:52:30.881 --> 00:52:38.502 - just they view it differently. But definitely point taken on the entryway into Bloomington. I think 00:52:38.502 --> 00:52:41.246 - that's a great aspect of Fullerton. 00:52:43.010 --> 00:52:53.418 - plan commission that took that position. So I want to share their position for raising it. All right. 00:52:53.418 --> 00:53:04.029 - So keeping us on track. Is there more that we need to present before we consider a final recommendation 00:53:04.029 --> 00:53:12.702 - or we exhausted our ability to talk about it all here? I just want to point out that 00:53:13.346 --> 00:53:20.948 - It looks like additional roadway will be needed on every single property, with the exception of keeping 00:53:20.948 --> 00:53:28.258 - the current building, renovating it, and adding the curry and fiscus properties. So I'm not pushing 00:53:28.258 --> 00:53:35.641 - one way or another with that. I just would like to raise it. That would be an additional expense. An 00:53:35.641 --> 00:53:42.878 - additional expense, certainly, especially with the price of concrete. I just have one other thing. 00:53:44.930 --> 00:53:53.064 - I think it's important that we also address the elephant in the room. And that is that the lawsuit that 00:53:53.064 --> 00:54:00.963 - we were talking about is now here. It has been filed. And I want to just read a couple of the pieces 00:54:00.963 --> 00:54:08.784 - of it and then share how that impacts our conversation. So this is just selections of it as well. I 00:54:08.784 --> 00:54:13.790 - got this from the B-Square bulletins. You can look at it there. 00:54:14.018 --> 00:54:21.947 - in reference to make sure I quoted it correctly. The Monroe County Jail is outdated, overcrowded, dangerous, 00:54:21.947 --> 00:54:29.368 - and grossly inadequate. The jail population is always or nearly always above its functional capacity. 00:54:29.368 --> 00:54:37.006 - The overcrowded conditions prevent adequate classification, producing dangerous conditions. Both blocks, 00:54:37.006 --> 00:54:42.462 - they're talking about A and B, contain more prisoners than there are beds, 00:54:42.978 --> 00:54:47.939 - As a result, prisoners are forced to sleep on mattresses on the floors of cells, three inmates to a 00:54:47.939 --> 00:54:53.298 - cell, because the other two beds in the cells are occupied. Some cells are large enough that the mattresses 00:54:53.298 --> 00:54:58.458 - on the floor can be placed in plastic containers called boats. However, some of the cells are too small 00:54:58.458 --> 00:55:01.534 - for that and the mattresses are placed directly on the floor. 00:55:01.698 --> 00:55:07.236 - Because of the size of the cells, prisoners must sleep directly next to the toilet slash sink units 00:55:07.236 --> 00:55:12.773 - in each cell. Therefore, prisoners must step over to use the toilet or sink unit and are frequently 00:55:12.773 --> 00:55:18.699 - splashed with toilet water from the toilets being used. The day rooms contain tables with stools attached, 00:55:18.699 --> 00:55:24.347 - but there are far fewer stools than prisoners in many of the cell blocks. All meals are served to the 00:55:24.347 --> 00:55:29.054 - prisoners in their cell blocks, and therefore those prisoners who do not have stools 00:55:29.186 --> 00:55:35.044 - Meals are eaten standing up or in the cells. Talks about frequent fights, paragraph 45. These fights 00:55:35.044 --> 00:55:41.018 - are often not observed by the staff as there are no direct lines into the prisoners' living areas from 00:55:41.018 --> 00:55:46.818 - any controlled areas where staff may be located. Instead, the jail depends on cameras in the blocks 00:55:46.818 --> 00:55:52.618 - and hourly checks by the staff. However, there are many areas that are not viewable on the cameras. 00:55:52.618 --> 00:55:56.446 - Therefore, fights and assaults occur that staff never know about. 00:55:57.218 --> 00:56:03.762 - It has serious HVAC problems such that some blocks are so hot in the summer and cold in the winter that 00:56:03.762 --> 00:56:10.305 - prisoners' health is put in jeopardy. Fairgrounds 49, the facility is literally falling apart as cracks 00:56:10.305 --> 00:56:16.597 - are visible in the walls and prisoners have been able to dislodge pieces of cement that can be used 00:56:16.597 --> 00:56:23.518 - to injure others. Plumbing fixtures are old, outdated, leak, and are difficult, if not impossible, to repair. 00:56:23.874 --> 00:56:31.898 - There is only one ADA accessible cell in the entire facility and it is in the mail only block. I understand 00:56:31.898 --> 00:56:39.402 - that this process has been really difficult and it has been long. And I'm very grateful to have been 00:56:39.402 --> 00:56:46.981 - on the committee with all of you. I've appreciated the conversations we've had. And I know ultimately 00:56:46.981 --> 00:56:52.702 - this decision is gonna be up to the county commissioners and county council. 00:56:55.234 --> 00:57:03.450 - appreciate the county council wants the building to be in the city. I understand that. I wish it could 00:57:03.450 --> 00:57:11.586 - be Thompson. I really do. But I feel like I can't in good conscience not acknowledge that by choosing 00:57:11.586 --> 00:57:19.563 - to build within the city you are choosing delay. And ultimately that may be what the county council 00:57:19.563 --> 00:57:24.030 - and county commissioners decide. I understand that. But 00:57:24.322 --> 00:57:33.489 - These allegations are what is alleged to be happening now. And when we talk about delay, we're also 00:57:33.489 --> 00:57:39.998 - talking about cost. And it's not just financial cost, it's human cost. 00:57:40.610 --> 00:57:45.938 - If we choose to build in the city, we are choosing for there to be inflation and construction costs. 00:57:45.938 --> 00:57:51.478 - We're choosing for reinvestment and redesign, costs and new site evaluations and preparation, litigation 00:57:51.478 --> 00:57:56.859 - and fees or attorney fees. The longer the lawsuit continues, at some point it's going to be an impact 00:57:56.859 --> 00:58:00.446 - to the community. There's also transportation costs and case delay. 00:58:00.546 --> 00:58:06.302 - Miss Rembeck was sharing, once you start moving inmates, right, that is a problem for the public defender's 00:58:06.302 --> 00:58:11.899 - office. They're not gonna be able to talk to their clients, it's gonna slow cases down, people are gonna 00:58:11.899 --> 00:58:17.282 - stay in jail longer. And I just, I don't think in good conscience, I couldn't bring up the fact that 00:58:17.282 --> 00:58:22.826 - I, what the county council commissioners choose to do, I understand is their choice, but it is a choice 00:58:22.826 --> 00:58:24.478 - to delay this and to keep this 00:58:25.506 --> 00:58:32.416 - this situation not be remedied as quickly as possible. So although I did vote for Thompson as my second, 00:58:32.416 --> 00:58:39.062 - I hear that Ms. Renbeck has voted first. If I have to choose within the city from our discussions, I 00:58:39.062 --> 00:58:45.709 - will choose the Thompson property as my lead choice. But if I could choose all of the sites that are 00:58:45.709 --> 00:58:52.158 - available, I would choose North Park. And then that's not because I want North Park, it's because 00:58:53.026 --> 00:59:00.204 - that there are human beings in that building. And you can't move enough inmates to other jails to resolve 00:59:00.204 --> 00:59:06.976 - the fact that the facility is crumbling. And I just believe people deserve a basic standard of care 00:59:06.976 --> 00:59:13.950 - and being treated with dignity. And I think every day we delay. So I'm going to vote for Thompson with 00:59:13.950 --> 00:59:19.774 - the caveat, with full honesty, that I would ask the council to reconsider North Park. 00:59:20.034 --> 00:59:26.029 - in a phased way that would still allow access to some services downtown, but would start to get people 00:59:26.029 --> 00:59:32.024 - outside of the jail into a healthier and constitutional environment. Thank you for your comments. I'll 00:59:32.024 --> 00:59:38.019 - just add a little something, and that is that, as we all know, this has been going on for a long time. 00:59:38.019 --> 00:59:43.897 - And so these conditions just didn't happen overnight. It's been aware for a very long time, and this 00:59:43.897 --> 00:59:49.310 - is where we're at today. And so we have to make the best decision with what we've got today. 00:59:50.722 --> 00:59:58.231 - So is there a feeling from the committee now we're ready to do our rankings, our final rankings, and 00:59:58.231 --> 01:00:05.518 - push through what it is we're advocating for, or is there more discussion needed? Okay, go ahead. 01:00:05.518 --> 01:00:13.101 - Thank you, Ms. Wilson, and points well taken, and this comment is not to you, so please don't take it 01:00:13.101 --> 01:00:19.198 - as it's to you. The settlement agreement has been in place since 2008. I was six. 01:00:19.522 --> 01:00:26.654 - in 2008. Somebody could have had a child in 2008. That child would be eligible to vote this year. The 01:00:26.654 --> 01:00:34.276 - county has failed to build a new jail. There are fabricated false choices that we are currently experiencing 01:00:34.276 --> 01:00:41.338 - because elected officials failed to do their due diligence. I'm talking about the Thompson property. 01:00:41.338 --> 01:00:48.190 - I'm talking about renovations that could have been made to the current location. This notion that 01:00:48.450 --> 01:00:59.484 - now we have to rush after 18 years of pretty much stalemate is infuriating. And to all the young people 01:00:59.484 --> 01:01:10.200 - who are listening, I hope our generation does a better job at serving our community. Anyone else? To 01:01:10.200 --> 01:01:16.990 - be my comments focused on our charge, which is selection of top 01:01:17.634 --> 01:01:28.418 - the top jail site within the city. I will have really only one thing to add that has not been added 01:01:28.418 --> 01:01:39.309 - by one of our colleagues, which is it is true that there is some assumption that because you own the 01:01:39.309 --> 01:01:46.750 - property, it is more affordable to develop it. It's not always true. 01:01:47.266 --> 01:01:57.065 - frequently not true. But site control does pave the way frequently to quicker development. And so in 01:01:57.065 --> 01:02:06.961 - the model of time is money, having site control, which you by nature have if you own the property, is 01:02:06.961 --> 01:02:14.334 - something that I have considered in my selections. I'll end my comment with 01:02:16.290 --> 01:02:27.650 - By varying from my original comment, I know our charge is to choose one site. It may behoove the process 01:02:27.650 --> 01:02:38.145 - that the council and commissioners are about to go through to recommend one site and one backup. 01:02:38.145 --> 01:02:40.958 - All right, anything else? 01:02:44.674 --> 01:02:49.749 - Just a question about site control. When you talk about site control, you're about whether or not we 01:02:49.749 --> 01:02:54.824 - own it. But now all of the properties in the city, we have to go through city, we're gonna hit city, 01:02:54.824 --> 01:02:59.899 - we're gonna hit rezoning, is that right? That's right. Okay. Site control means you can do things on 01:02:59.899 --> 01:03:04.924 - it now. Right, which is where I think, so now there's three governmental bodies in a room that have 01:03:04.924 --> 01:03:10.250 - to agree, right? You have to have the city council to agree, which they would like it in the city limits, 01:03:10.250 --> 01:03:14.622 - because we're building in the city limits, which is what the county council has asked. 01:03:14.722 --> 01:03:21.990 - and then you need the commissioners to agree as well. And I think the commissioners have shared in different 01:03:21.990 --> 01:03:28.725 - formats, the desire for a single floor jail and this concern about the ability to co-locate. I raise 01:03:28.725 --> 01:03:35.527 - that because if you talk about doing a backup, my first choice based under the current constraints we 01:03:35.527 --> 01:03:42.462 - were given was actually Tap Road South. And that's because it fits, if you're trying to find consensus, 01:03:43.010 --> 01:03:49.609 - It is in within the city limits. It is large enough for co-location. We do not have the delay. Now you're 01:03:49.609 --> 01:03:55.896 - still gonna have the delay by choosing to build within the city. So now we have the fourth person in 01:03:55.896 --> 01:04:02.309 - the room and that's the court. And frankly, they're gonna have a lot more input at this point than had 01:04:02.309 --> 01:04:07.102 - been anticipated. So that's what would be my backup choices, Tap Road South. 01:04:10.242 --> 01:04:18.391 - you have anything before we make our recommendation? Thank you. Right, so. Did we do this and do we 01:04:18.391 --> 01:04:26.704 - have any advice over here? So if somebody would like if you'd like to vote for a primary in a backup, 01:04:26.704 --> 01:04:32.734 - there's one of two ways you could do this. One is just form a motion for. 01:04:33.250 --> 01:04:41.069 - I would like to vote that this site is our primary, this site is our backup, and that could be voted 01:04:41.069 --> 01:04:48.889 - on altogether. Or you could separate out that vote to first vote on the primary and then vote on the 01:04:48.889 --> 01:04:56.708 - secondary in a second vote. What's the committee's preference? I guess I'll suggest that we separate 01:04:56.708 --> 01:05:03.134 - them because our second choice may be impacted by the outcome of the first choice. 01:05:03.458 --> 01:05:17.018 - And I will tie that to a motion that we choose Curry and existing as our top choice. Second. All those 01:05:17.018 --> 01:05:30.314 - in favor? Aye. Opposed? No. Can we do a roll call? Yeah, just to clarify. Let's do the roll call. So 01:05:30.314 --> 01:05:33.342 - first choice is Curry. 01:05:34.050 --> 01:05:52.626 - That's the motion, right? And that's what we're voting on. We'll do the roll. Yes. Getting myself situated 01:05:52.626 --> 01:06:03.390 - here. Okay. Okay. Mr. In back. Ms. April. No. Mayor Thompson. 01:06:04.290 --> 01:06:31.326 - Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. 01:06:35.202 --> 01:06:42.678 - So then we wanted to separate that out, as I remember. And so now we need to, does someone have a second? 01:06:42.678 --> 01:06:49.731 - Or do you have something else? Councilmember Feidl? I move that this body considers or approves the 01:06:49.731 --> 01:06:56.502 - Thompson property as our second choice. Second for this motion. Second. All those in favor? Oh, 01:06:56.502 --> 01:07:03.625 - pardon me. Roll call. I guess we'll do a roll call. We haven't done this for a while. Okay, we'll do 01:07:03.625 --> 01:07:04.542 - a roll call. 01:07:06.018 --> 01:07:21.807 - Ms. Wilson. Yes. Mayor Thompson. Yes. Ms. Zulek. Yes. Councilor Feidl. Thank you, yes. Ms. Rinbeck. 01:07:21.807 --> 01:07:35.070 - Yes, thank you. Motion passes unanimous. All right, so we have our first and second 01:07:35.170 --> 01:07:41.418 - choices here as a committee to recommend to the larger body now that body will need to come together 01:07:41.418 --> 01:07:47.666 - and be pulled to find out when they can come together and then we'll present that our recommendation 01:07:47.666 --> 01:07:53.914 - to that larger body so what else do we need to do here anything well there'd been talk about a cover 01:07:53.914 --> 01:08:00.224 - letter and other things what are our thoughts on that i'm sorry did that again there had been talk at 01:08:00.224 --> 01:08:04.926 - previous meetings about a cover letter listing the properties we considered 01:08:06.050 --> 01:08:12.880 - Okay. I don't I don't know who would be drafting such a thing. My recommendation and take this or leave 01:08:12.880 --> 01:08:19.776 - it since that we have been uploading those documents to the website and that exists. My suggestion would 01:08:19.776 --> 01:08:25.950 - be to simplify that and maybe just have a recommendation letter that you all could authorize. 01:08:26.530 --> 01:08:32.293 - Subcommittee Chair Feidl to sign on behalf of the committee certifying the vote and then pointing to 01:08:32.293 --> 01:08:38.170 - the website for those materials to look at all sites that were covered, the materials, and even to the 01:08:38.170 --> 01:08:43.875 - extent of the preliminary vote today, we're gonna upload those to the website as well. So all those 01:08:43.875 --> 01:08:49.638 - materials will be gathered together in one place, I think as desired by the subcommittee. Do we need 01:08:49.638 --> 01:08:51.806 - to make a motion to have that happen? 01:08:51.906 --> 01:09:00.082 - That would be fine if you'd like to just authorize you to write a short letter. We could draft that 01:09:00.082 --> 01:09:08.257 - and have you sign it today. I move to authorize Chair Feidl to write and sign a letter on behalf of 01:09:08.257 --> 01:09:16.596 - the Collaborative Justice Project Working Subcommittee on our final recommendations and cover letter. 01:09:16.596 --> 01:09:20.030 - Did that cover it? OK. Second. All right. 01:09:20.642 --> 01:09:27.107 - Any discussion I should say? All those in favor? Hi. Hi. Hi. Wait, do we need a roll call? Okay. I don't 01:09:27.107 --> 01:09:33.326 - know when we need one when we don't. Okay. All those in favor? I'm sorry again. Hi. So I think we're 01:09:33.326 --> 01:09:39.668 - unanimous on that. Thank you. So as far as I can tell, we're adjourned unless somebody has... Oh, wait 01:09:39.668 --> 01:09:45.825 - a minute. There's a comment. I'll just say I had a really fun time working with all of you. This is 01:09:45.825 --> 01:09:48.350 - a new experience for me, especially with 01:09:48.546 --> 01:09:54.658 - a local subcommittee and just thank you for all of your time and especially um the work that everyone 01:09:54.658 --> 01:10:00.830 - put into this i know it was a lot of it i guess the only thing i'd ask is that we be told whenever the 01:10:00.830 --> 01:10:07.003 - the collaborative yeah or whatever i don't know the larger joint meeting is going to be a larger group 01:10:07.003 --> 01:10:13.055 - meeting so that we can also sure i'd be happy to pass that along to this subcommittee yeah all right 01:10:13.055 --> 01:10:16.830 - i'll just echo it was uh great to work in collaboration with a 01:10:17.666 --> 01:10:24.950 - city county public defender prosecutor team. It was a delight being here and trying to shepherd you 01:10:24.950 --> 01:10:32.234 - all through this. The city and county working together. All right so I think we're adjourned right? 01:10:32.234 --> 01:10:33.982 - Okay thank you so much.