- I'm going to call this meeting of the Personnel Administration Committee to order. We have with us,
- Kate Wiltz, Liz Spital, and myself, Peter Iverson, here in the county courtroom. And thank you all for
- joining us. There's a packed crowd here today, and thank you for joining us on Teams as well. I hope,
- PAC members, you have the agenda in front of you. Does anybody have any changes?
- Hearing none, I'll entertain a motion. All right, a motion to accept the agenda. Is there a second?
- Second. Oh, golly, that small committee. Sorry. I'm sorry. All right. The motion and a second are on
- the table. Is there any conversation? Hearing none. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. All
- those opposed to the same sign, the ayes have it unanimously.
- All right, also PAC members in the packet, which those of you joining us online or here in the room
- here can find the minutes in the packet today. I trust you all have had a chance to make sure your names
- are spelled correctly. Any conversation about the summary minutes? All right.
- Yeah. We've been gone for a while. All right. Is there a motion? Is there a second? Hearing a motion
- and a second. Is there any further conversation? All those in favor of adopting the summary minutes
- of the presenter, please say aye. Aye. All those opposed? Michelle, the ayes have unanimously.
- Thank you. You're welcome. All right. Here's what we're all here for.
- We have been tasked by the broader County Council to have a conversation regarding the hiring freeze
- that the Monroe County Council adopted. We thank those departments who we had to push to a later meeting,
- but we felt like this conversation was really important to have with you so that we structure this hiring
- freeze in a way that does more good than harm.
- And so you'll see in your agenda today that we're going to go through three pieces, creation of a request
- form that is to be completed by the departments, the administration of the hiring freeze. How are we
- going to, once those requests come in, is council going to review those or are we going to use the KSA
- model where council staff will review them? Then we'll go and talk about the hiring freeze request
- For a 2nd review. So, if a department comes to council with a hiring freeze request, and it is denied.
- What happens do they have to departments need to wait for 6 months 1 year 10 years. We're going to talk
- all about it. Okay. I think I'm going to run this meeting a little different than we generally run pack
- meetings. We have so many people here and so much institutional knowledge that I think we'll have folks
- lead us off with.
- the topic, and then we'll make sure Pac has questions, and then I'll open it up for people in the room
- and also online. Does that sound like a good plan? Legal? Does that sound good? Excellent. All right.
- Michelle or E, what do we need to know about creating a request form for the hiring freeze? I can go first.
- In my observations over the first couple of weeks that the hiring freeze was in place, I am copied on
- those email requests and some of the information that comes from departments, some departments provide
- more information than others. And I thought that for you of the council to have the most information
- when making these decisions, it would be of best practice to have departments
- answer the same set of questions so that you're getting the most information. So that's where I'm coming
- from to make sure that the priorities of the council for this hiring freeze are being met by the request
- that the department is making, if that makes sense. Yes, and in the packet there is a copy of a draft
- request form that he has come up with and I've got it displaying on the screen, but it's just, you know,
- the questions that we have received for all council members and that kind of thing. So we've just kind
- of consolidated that into a request form. And so then that way it's uniform to everyone that makes a
- request. So we already kind of have a format, but we need to have input from the PAC members as to
- Did you like? Do you see anything else that you would like to see on it or not? You know, as for the
- Council on behalf of the Council. Alright, Kim Schell teed it up. PAC members, what questions or comments
- do you have to start off the conversation about the document that's being shared on the screen? So I
- saw a draft earlier and so I had submitted some comments I think to be early on. It's been a while.
- We talked about it, and I think you incorporated those in, but I think now. So I don't have anything
- more to add with my point. I have one thing to add there was some information that was submitted already
- by a department and they included supporting documentation from other departments about how that position
- in that office.
- Interacts with other departments and I thought that was a good addition to the request if it's that
- specifically if it's a position where it's the sole position in that department or in the county that.
- That's additional support. Michelle, I think that's section six about OK, I didn't know I was just typing
- it on here as a reminder to myself.
- They're just the best. I mean, it could just be section two, a question. And then if you wanted to provide
- supporting, but. You know, I guess I want to make this. Less, you know, as least cumbersome as possible.
- I get is where I mean, it's it's a lot.
- And I want to focus on the things, the questions that the answers to which will really kind of cut through.
- And I'm not saying anything I think that anyone else hasn't been thinking. I just want to make sure that it's
- For each question that we ask, we know what we're going to do with the answer. And I really kind of
- want to hear also from everybody who's here and has an opinion what you would suggest we consider. Have
- they seen this? It was in the packet.
- In light of that, Michelle, would you mind walking us through the document? Or do we need to print off
- these pages for folks? Let's do that, then we can all have a look at it. If we could print on both sides,
- that would be fantastic.
- Just worried about that tree. Oh, this isn't about cost savings. That's fine. Should. So we only have
- like an hour, right? In the meeting. So can I go ahead? That's a very good idea. I understand your.
- to your reason behind the hiring freeze and all the budget constraints and being in the whole white
- million dollars and all that. I totally get that. But seeing this form, it's just, as you put it, it
- seems so cumbersome for us department heads to have to go through all these hoops. For one, these positions
- were created for a reason years ago.
- they're budgeted for and you approve those budgets that that that position is need and is a need. And
- you depend on the department heads to put those in their budgets and only budget for what you need and
- they're approved. But now it's like we're having to start all over and go through this whole process
- for something that already exists. And if it already exists, how does, how does that even really save
- you in the long run? Yeah. It's taking,
- It's taking me almost a month to get to the next agenda. And in that time, you know, I have a truck
- driver leaving to go to another higher paying job. I have a guy now retiring. I have somebody else do
- an interview. I have an engineer that's going to retire and it's going to take me all this paperwork
- to go in and get permission for something that I've already budgeted for that has no effect on cabin
- general. It doesn't save the overall County anything.
- You're not going to see those cost savings out of my budgets, but I'm going to have to go through all
- these hoops and months of paperwork to build a position or the ones that don't have CDLs. We've built
- a program in our department to train them in-house and be able to move them up. I can't even do that
- now, but it's for positions that's already there. I feel like I'm starting over now and I'm going back
- through WIS.
- is what I feel like, that this is a WISP process. So maybe that could be a clarifying question. Are
- we only interested in working on positioning that have impact on the job, right? I know you're trying
- to be fair for everyone and I'm not asking for any special permission here either. I get that we all
- need to be treated the same. I just feel like this is a step backwards for all of us when we're already busy
- And it's going to take us months to go through just trying to fill one position. And then you've already
- maybe lost another position. You're going to have to start the process over for another one. It's just,
- it's never, as I've seen it in the last month, it's just continuing now and building and building. And
- it's the first month. All right. Let's go to Linda Brady, who has raised their hand on teams.
- Thank you for letting me speak. I agree with what Lisa said as well for the positions that don't affect
- County General that you may want to rethink about how much effort you're going to go to to be looking
- at something like I'm thinking about and Beth could speak to this as well. If we have grant positions,
- we're signing a we the county are signing a contract agreeing to take this grant money and operate these
- programs and
- at some level, I mean, we're going to have to fulfill our contracts that we're signing with the state.
- So and I'm not sure how to do it, but maybe having something that could expedite getting those positions
- filled. The other thing I was thinking about, too, is if you're going to ask these questions, what are
- some other things that the department might already be doing to save money in
- county general or whatever, because there are some departments and ours included that we've already
- made a ton of cuts. We already have 11 vacant positions right now in order to try to save money. So
- I'm wondering if you would want to know that. What are some other things that you're already doing to
- save money or something like that?
- That was my comment. Anybody else have a comment? I'm a little confused. If the council gave us, we'll
- say for example, hourly money, they didn't want us to have that, why didn't you take it? Because now
- we have to do all of this to even see if we're going to be a recreation department or what we're closing
- at the parks.
- I'm confused. It's already there. The money's there. If you already wanted to take it, why didn't you
- take it? And then that would answer that. I think it's an imperfect system. OK, that question. OK.
- You know, it's a series of decisions and compromises, and that's where we get down the road. And. It's
- it's not ideal. And in ours, I don't read all this yet, but it would be.
- just so the council realize what we're closing at the parks. So you can realize this is what we're not.
- What programs you're not doing and what restrooms are closing or the splice pattern, the things that
- we have to close in order to operate with the people who are left. And that's fine. I don't know if
- that's on here. I'll put it as an attachment. And I know we're not the jail. We understand, you gotta
- watch the inmates, but you also,
- We need to know what we're not doing and we're, you know, we're behind planning. It's already November.
- We're supposed to be planning already for next year in hiring. So, Billy, that's Billy. Just as a reminder,
- if you're on Teams, simply raise your hand and we'll see you. Go ahead. I second Lisa was saying,
- For example, we have the record who you are. So everybody knows Laura. We're chief deputy clerk, clerk's
- office. Um, we have been asking and we didn't even get denial. That's the form of communication. We
- got silence. No, I sent you an email saying that you were, you know, you were great. Yes. You were,
- you were great. I'm just saying from our representatives. Okay. Because we, we, we didn't even have
- the opportunity to explain like, uh,
- Two counters, we have those positions for a reason. We had one leave, we need to just hire it back.
- By the time we hire, it's going to be another month at least, because you have to go through the interviewing
- process, you have to do the posting process, you have to do onboarding, training, all these other things.
- We're getting into the holidays. We have people leave. We want people to go visit their families. We
- want people to not be burned out. So when we have people that are trying to cover their position as
- well as someone else's position, it leads to a lot of frustration, a lot of resentment. We even had
- people say, hey, we're kind of looking for something else. So then that leads to we're just trying to
- replace someone in a position that left. That's it.
- We're also looking for the criteria. What is it that you guys are looking for? What is standardized?
- Because we hear through the grapevine, oh, this one department had a new position created. We had a
- new position that was hired all within one week. We're like, what? I'm sorry. Hang on. And then we had
- other people that just spoke in public comment. And then it was like, oh, yeah, you guys are approved.
- But they weren't on the agenda. So we're trying to do the right thing.
- And I miss Terry request again, because I'm like, okay, the space hasn't been filled. So, of course,
- our representatives know we're, of course, we're going to ask that we did. We did try to get a hold
- of them. We did have some conversation with David Henry and it was like, so we did request. Nobody said
- yes, because it was silence.
- You were great. Thank you. Appreciate it. The thing is, I want to make sure everybody gets the information.
- You were absolutely correct. You were good with us. I appreciate it. Thank you. But that's not the council.
- These are the people that we didn't even have a chance to pitch. What's the criteria? How do we get
- before? Other than silence. Other than Kim.
- Thank you. Any other comments, questions? All right. You know, I would just echo everything that's been
- said here today. You know, my office has a statutory duty to prosecute all crimes and infractions that
- have been in Monroe County.
- When I am fully staffed, we are understaffed. There is a report from the Indian Press Communities Council
- and WIS that justifies us having two more deputy prosecutors, more support staff. My deputies, when
- I have everybody on board, has 300 cases a piece on average. That means the legal secretaries have about
- 600 cases a piece on average, plus there's four victim assistants that handle all of the crimes in Monroe County.
- I'm now down a juvenile deputy prosecutor. It's the only person in my office who does juvenile delinquency
- cases. Nobody else really knows how to do it. And nobody has the capacity. I have two attorneys who
- worked more than a hundred hours of pay period, about two or three pay periods in a row recently. And
- that was just working on their own caseload. That wasn't trying to cover that one and a half vacant
- caseloads that I have right now. So it already takes me time.
- to post and recruit, it usually means that I have a vacancy for at least 30, 60 days anyway, if I can
- just go through the process. But if I can't go through the process and I'm put further behind, oh, and
- because I can't do a knowledge, skills, and abilities pay bump, that means most of my people I'm going
- to hire are going to be brand new. They're going to require training. That's going to put me even further
- behind the ball.
- So this whole process is really just causing a lot of problems for my office. And I can hear that it's
- causing problems for everybody else as well. So I would be interested to know from some of the feedback
- that we're receiving that the based on your employee services department would have anything to add
- or to aid us in making any at all combinations to some of these concerns.
- I think that where I'm coming from is purely to find consistency in the requests because sometimes it's
- much like the job description process where some people are a little bit more advanced at writing a
- job description than other departments. So there lacks some consistency there. So I just want to have
- questions that council wants to know
- When they're evaluating these requests to even the planes feel for own departments, but I also understand
- that there are different. These are not my decisions to make their council decisions. What are the priorities
- for you in the hiring freeze? And what's that look like? You know, you've made some decisions about
- public safety. You know, what are the other priorities? How do you want to. Designate what that.
- Here looks like, I don't, I don't know, but just to help you answer the questions to get the data that
- you're looking for to value them. I think there are some things I've made some notes can ask to you
- some other questions we can add to this morning. Good question and maybe you've discussed it another
- meeting, but why was a hiring delay not. The decision rather than a hiring freeze where every new position,
- every vacant.
- vacancy has to be delayed by 30, 60 days. So at least then we can start the process. We can give a potential
- hiree a start date that's two months out or whatever. There's always going to be consistent line reversions
- because it'll be vacant for a certain period of time. And it'll allow us to do what we need to do. It'll
- save everybody time. Just see how that works.
- It's not ideal for us, but it, you know, even our staff that's covering caseloads once, if they know
- that it's a defined period of time, it makes it much easier to swallow. There's not a hiring delay in
- part because none was suggested. I don't think we discussed that. It's an interesting idea. Although,
- when you say reversions, not necessarily because people can transfer that money across lines within,
- you know, within the tens, but presumably we're staff. I mean, we're never, I mean, we can't, we'd have
- to come to you to move them to the thirties or something. We can move it to part time. And I just want
- to say that since we do have, since departments cannot, um,
- are not allowed right at this moment to do KSAs, we always know that they're going to be hiring in at
- the minimum, you know, balance. So if somebody does leave at an eight, three, you know, whatever,
- you know, it's always going to go back to the minimum. So unless a minimum person has left and you're
- filling it with a minimum, there will always be a savings cost when, when you're replacing that vacancy
- budget wise. That's what I'm, you know, I see.
- And I think those are things to add into them to put in the form if what you're, you know. What are
- those cost savings based on the positions? All of that? I mean, I think that a lot of times in the request
- that you're receiving generally, they are explaining the need for the.
- Help in the office and how that impacts the other people and the functions, but I think that adding
- more financial questions so you can evaluate those of you are if somebody is leaving at 25 years. And
- you're high, you know, we all know they would come in at the minimum what that equals this. Maybe that
- helps you make a better decision about whether that person could be hired. Linda, what do you think?
- I just wanted to bring up that Greg Garitas at a meeting actually did bring up his recommendation was
- not a hiring freeze. It was, I think he called it a hiring chill, which is similar to what Beth was
- just talking about, which we used to have done that in the past where we did what we call slow hire.
- We, we maybe gave it a month or whatever, some period of time, but that was actually brought up by Greg
- Garitas. I just wanted to bring that up.
- Yeah, I didn't. I didn't understand him that way, but neither that makes sense. Um, I thought he was
- talking about a shorter term of nothing happening rather than this kind of slow roll. Right. Um,
- but that's, that could be me. Um, no, it's interesting. It is. I'm looking at the clock or halfway through
- our allotted time. Are there any,
- Other suggestions or comments or changes you want to make on the document before you or portrayed up
- on the screen. We've heard it's too long. It's too cumbersome. We've heard you need to add even more.
- What any other changes before we move on to streamlining the process, which is the next item on the
- agenda? And this is for everybody, not just members of Pat. All right.
- Let's talk about process. We've heard a little bit about some frustration about the way it is really
- counseling meets twice a month. And it takes forever to get something on our agenda takes forever for
- us to hear something. We understand that. So we don't want the well, actually, let me stop talking.
- Kim and E. What do you want to say about this?
- I agree that it does delay the process with regards to if it's a no, you know, it's a no. And so as
- the example, you know, the clerk, she hadn't heard from, you know, anyone. So there, I think there needs
- to be a process with regards to, if it is a no, they, I think somebody needs, as their liaison needs
- to speak to that department. And then that way they know that they're not moving forward and why.
- But. I don't know, I kind of like this delay thing. Maybe we need to rethink the hiring freeze itself
- and have a hiring delay and then. And then reevaluate and have them come at, you know. Or I don't know,
- you know, I'm just I mean, the whole idea is to, you know, basically save money so it.
- 30 days will save you money, but it gives them the opportunity to go ahead and get the job posted. Maybe
- go ahead and get, you know, interviews started and conducted. And then that way when that 30 day limit
- or whatever you set is up, they can fill it. So maybe if we come up, maybe that kind of a process rather
- than a just out and out freeze.
- Just as a reminder, this is not the full council. The full council will make these decisions. Right.
- And so that could be something that is brought to the full council to think about. I want to bring us
- back to the form that was on the screen. And once that form is completed by a department head, what
- happens next? We think you have a couple of options for how you can do that. It's either an evaluation by TAC,
- an evaluation by Kim and I, similar to the KSA process, or a combination of both of those things. It
- will be the three packed people plus Kim and I to evaluate work. And to say that- Or the entire council.
- Right. If you do a pack, and it is all the members pack, it has to be done in a public meeting. So that
- delays the process. Yes. Which means we have to schedule a meeting.
- which takes time, which takes time. It's got to go to council. And then it would go to council. And
- with the KSA model, Kim and I do that usually within 24, 48 hours after we receive a request. And then
- that process was, if council didn't agree with our decision, then it was brought to council for a discussion. So,
- Any comments or questions about the process, how long it takes, who's involved? I've been here a long
- time, and I'll tell you between November and January 15th, not a lot of committees meet. Not a lot of
- meetings occur. It's the slowest time that county government moves. It's already pretty slow. And you
- might also think different in hourly.
- than a, you know, solid position. Because what are you going to say? Well, don't work that day, but
- now we'll pay you for this day. I mean, hourly will be different. If you just want to take some of our
- money, just tell me. You know, we're different. It's different. Yeah. And so I think our election members.
- Yeah. So there's some consideration to take place. Just a lot of silence. OK.
- I mean, I guess I'd like to know if Kim and E are going to be comfortable doing these. I mean, I feel
- like KSA was probably a little bit easier. This is a pretty potentially devastating decision to have
- to make for a department and this was the council's idea. So my feeling is you're going to deliver bad
- news, you ought to have the guts to do it yourself. And I've never gone through the KSA process, so
- I don't know.
- But how how is it how are departments to know you're going to be consistent with those decisions with
- all the departments across the board? How are you going to know in your position why I should rehire
- a mechanic or a highway engineer?
- Based on what? The form. I mean, ultimately that's what comes back to us. And that's why EFI needs to
- be in the animation and then us. Someone invited County Legal. I did. For a reason. Because I'm both
- clear. Can we make a recommendation to council? So it would still be a council decision. And I think
- they have expressed their call for making a recommendation. Did we lose video? Andrew, can you see us? Linda?
- You guys lost the video. It looked like you turned your camera off. We haven't touched it. No, we keep
- shutting off. He's blinking. There we are. But since you're talking about and you say that the council
- is going to make the decision, this is just a recommendation. Aren't we just throwing a step in there?
- It makes the process faster when Kim and because it's not done in a
- But it still won't have to go to a meeting. It doesn't have to go to necessary. It only goes to a meeting
- if council disagrees with our. I thought I said they make the final decision like a KSA. In KSA, we
- send them a recommendation if they don't respond, if they move forward with the recommendation, if they
- do respond and it goes to a meeting.
- Yeah. Cause you haven't been to that process. So somebody asked, it's just in that non-communication
- part. I reached out to my liaisons like three times in that 48 hours because I, I know they're busy.
- How am I, how do I know that's not even just going to be overlooked? And I will say one of my liaisons
- called me after the 48 hour Mark was like, did I miss something? I mean,
- It's a lot of back and forth. It's going to be a lot of emails and, you know, Kim, any of you looked
- at my request and. Yep. Yeah. And I don't know offices. I mean, that's that's the other thing. A lot
- of people, people, a lot of people are making decisions, but you don't know how we function our office
- function. So is there a better way? Well, that's yeah.
- Because I agree with you. We don't know. And when you said how are Ian and Kim going to know if I need
- a mechanic, how am I going to know if you need a mechanic? It's all based on the information we have.
- And I think that's where he stepped in rightly and said, hey, you all need to get the right information
- and the same information from everybody so that we can make a decision. And we're also budgeted.
- We're already budgeted. It's not like we're trying to create a new position. It's not like we're trying
- to bump up. We're just, and it takes like a two, three month process anyway to get it in there. With
- the already budgeted argument, I will say at least from my perspective, the hiring freeze is moving
- forward because the budgets, the budget cuts that we already did as painful as that was this year, more
- has to happen for the coming year.
- and we were just trying to get to a point where we have an alternative that isn't cutting positions.
- Honestly, that's the way, I mean, I don't know if I'm speaking for, I can't speak for all counsel, but
- that's the feeling I get from others. And that is definitely my understanding is the way our funding
- is changing, unless the state changes something early this coming year,
- and we suddenly have more money than we're expecting, we will be doing even more drastic things than
- a hiring freeze. So we were hoping that through attrition, you know, people leaving positions and not
- billing them, that might be, that might let some of the pressure off of the need that we see to eliminate
- positions because we've done all the cutting we can in
- other areas that we know about. Again, we only know what we know. How is it not eliminating a physician
- when you're denied to fill it? It's the same thing. It's just a different. I mean, it's eliminating
- position. It is. It is. So that's already happening. And you know, the morale in our office and,
- and we've, like we said, we've got two different rooms, two different front counters, but we're only
- allowed to have one front counter person.
- they cannot be in two rooms at one time. And yet we were denied. And it's just frustrating because we're
- watching our people be frustrated with the extra workload. They've got to answer to judges upstairs.
- And you do what those judges say. Trust me, you do. But we feel like physicians are being eliminated
- already by what's happening. Can I answer it? Can I just respond real quick?
- May at Peter. You do not have to ask my permission. We are co equal here that you're having the meeting.
- I just want to make sure it doesn't get off the rails. Keep going. I just wanted to. I almost forgot
- my point here, so it's OK, it's OK. One of the one of the things that I've brought up as because I realized
- that yeah, this is actually less strategic than if we
- looked at departments and got rid of positions, and that seems weird and not the best way to go. My
- thought process was that we would have a stage of this where, okay, someone's left, and if you feel
- that position is so valuable that you have to fill it, you need to find that amount of personnel to
- cut elsewhere in your department so that the people who do know their departments are making a decision
- to cut a position, maybe not the one that just, you know, was vacant. But that's horrible too. I mean,
- all of it's horrible. We can't shift. That's the problem too is we're kind of locked in. This person
- is in this position. This person is in this position. Well, I mean, what I was suggesting was that we allow
- that sort of shifting. We allow you to say, okay, I'm not, I'm, I really need front counter person.
- So I guess I'm going to have to find that amount of salary to eliminate in a different position. And
- that's a hard thing to put on you, but it's because we're already there. Yeah. You're prioritizing services
- based on who's leaving. I mean, that's not very,
- Well, we're saying that the department, I'm saying, this is not a way. I was saying that rather than
- just saying because this person retired, you're out that position, you're out that money in your personnel
- budget. You can hire that position, but you would have to then let go. I want to go back to something
- that Beth had said.
- A few years back, we've been with the county for a long time and when they were working on the personnel
- policy, you made a comment that has stuck with me in the past. It was what can we do to help our departments?
- And now it's like, what can we do to take away from our departments? And that's you made that call me.
- What I said better than I didn't because it really.
- It really hits home. Before it was, what can we do for you? And now it's, what can we take from you?
- And that's where the financial aspect of it is. But in the meantime, we're hurting. I mean, we was already
- at bare bones. And I know you guys have heard this over and over. We lost seven positions when Linda
- Robbins was clerk. And now we've already lost two more just with this hiring freeze. It's killing us.
- And it's just, it's more of a burden on everybody else there. You can see it in the morale. People are,
- you know, I don't have time for this. I, and it's getting bad.
- And we are the hub of this justice center. We deal with the sheriff's department. We deal with the courts.
- We deal with prosecutors. We deal with DCF. Every job's crucial in our office. And I'm sure it's probably
- like that in every office. And then that. I'm just not throwing this out here. It's like, this is a
- great idea. It was me saying, I get that the way we're doing it doesn't seem right. So as a possible, like,
- way of, of shaping a hiring freeze. If we're sticking with hiring freeze and it's just, you can't, you
- can't hire. I was hoping to find some sort of valve to allow at least some control back to the departments.
- You know, you don't have any control if someone just retired or left, but if you can move things around,
- that might help. I don't think this is brilliant plan. Don't get me wrong. I'm just saying the conversation. Yeah.
- It's just something that, that, you know, we talked about. And I think that, I think the, the future
- issues that you're saying we could be faced with hard decisions where we have to eliminate positions
- through a reduction in force. And this is the, yeah. So I think that that's a, that's,
- We don't know what that looks like, but this is a precursor to that by asking you to. Consider what
- it would look like by making some accommodations in your offices based on the the attrition or whatever
- is happening and working with with council, but I would also.
- put back on council that it's helping the departments understand what the priorities are and liaisons
- working with the departments to figure out what that looks like. I don't think anyone is expecting you
- to do more with less. We're expecting you to essentially get by right now. And I think that it's okay.
- Those are the conversations that you should have with your liaisons and whoever to explain what you
- are unable to do and what that future looks like doing a little bit less.
- and how we figure that out. Linda, what do you think? So at the beginning of this budget session, Jennifer
- talked to department heads and said they really hope to be able to get through this this budget process
- by cutting 20s and 30s and 40s. And, you know, if everybody would make sacrifices, which a lot of departments
- did well, that still didn't cut it. And so I'm wondering about this same process here that how many
- Have you all gotten any kind of sense how many positions you need to cut across the county like even
- if we all none of us refilled any positions like.
- what an average year would that even get you to where you're hoping? I mean, I don't I've not seen anything
- that says if we reduce by 10 positions or 50 or whatever across the county that we're going to get where
- we need to be. So I mean, it just it's concerning to me that we're just kind of doing this without having
- any kind of goals or any kind of maybe you've got that information. I haven't seen it. So Linda, I'll
- speak for myself.
- I was really happy that we got through this budget year without having to do that. And I'm quite frankly
- scared to ask that question. I don't know, Kim, I don't know that we've pulled those numbers. So Linda,
- thank you for touching the third rail. But it's a good question. It's a very good question.
- there a number on how many new positions have been created, created than last three or four years? Yeah.
- And I count many as you would think I did put that together and it was less than 10. I feel like, um,
- Tim. Yeah, we've, we've done a lot of like, here's a lot of like, here's the job description and we're,
- is he doing it, you know, kind of thing. So some of them were just changing a,
- current position, but, or how many departments overall, like jumped applications, like every employee
- in that department. I mean, I feel like a lot of departments that have not grown are now going to pay
- the price for those kinds of changes that have happened over the years. And I'm not even one of them
- because I'm not within county general at all, but it's now everybody's having to pay that price for
- all these changes and the increases and other departments and now we need to cut. And if I remember
- one comment during budget hearings, it was thanking a lot of the departments that had really cut back
- and made changes and respected the advice of their liaison to make those cuts. But there was departments
- that absolutely didn't make a cut at all. I mean, is that addressed? I mean, we all know if we're all
- having to make cuts then
- we should all make the cuts. But I remember that being stated at one of the meetings that not everybody,
- not everybody, you know, went with that guidance from the county. By the end of the budget sessions,
- those departments that had not voluntarily cut, we cut. So at least for this year,
- we tried to apply some equity there. I want to bring it back and repeat what I'm hearing. I'm hearing
- that the process of having Kim Shell and E Sensenstein review the completed worksheet that was on the
- screen. And as long as no council member says no, that that is a process that is efficient, fair,
- transparent and can communicate better than us. I thought it worked well for KSA. That's great. But
- I do think that you need to tell us to our sweet little faces. Can you speak up a little, please? Yeah.
- Sorry. I said, sorry, the KSA process was well done. It was easy to do and follow when Ian
- Kim made the evaluation and council requesting to review if they didn't agree with it. But then I said,
- a council member needs to tell us to our sweet little faces directly when they decide not to give us
- what we need. And exactly why I think that was my biggest frustration. It's like, why are you refusing?
- We don't understand. Why is it? Because then it leads to another more involved discussion of this is
- apparently you didn't hear or we may not have made
- Proper. So I think understanding, I should say, I hear you. And that leads to the third point on our
- agenda today is what happens? What should happen? That's a better question. What should happen when
- these two or council says no to a request? I and Kim, do you have thoughts before we launch into it?
- Is there a waiting period before they can come back? We don't have that for KSA. I mean, once it's a
- no, it's a no because, you know, by that time you've got somebody on the, uh, the, uh, you know, tire,
- they're on that scale, this kind of thing. So, um, as far as a hiring freeze, I think that's going to
- have to be a council decision if there is an appeal process or a,
- I was going to ask about a waiting period. Yeah, a waiting period or something. Is there anything stopping
- a department from giving a department update to the public that they've been denied to fill a position
- and that things might be taking a little longer? Based on the current administration, I would say that
- as long as you were there, you could use your, was it 10 minutes, however you see fit? Because I do
- think there's a piece of this that becomes less than
- transparent. Yes. And I think the public is going to notice a reduction in service eventually. Yes.
- And I think they need to know why. And I think unfortunately, I mean, it's your responsibility to prioritize
- what's funded. This is sort of what we talked about just a second ago, but I can put together data about, I,
- know how much turnover we have in a year and that roughly how much those employees cost during that
- time period. So I can put that together for whatever time period you want and I can also put that information
- together as a regular report for council because we're talking about what that looks like moving forward
- and what cost savings. So if you have positions that you've said no to, we can quantify
- what that has looked like over time. And if that helps you come up with your decision on whether you
- would then allow, I'm just throwing that out there that I can provide data. Is that going to be helpful
- as in it's, oh, no, no, no, no. Is it only helpful if that position never comes back? I mean, is it
- just one year and then you're going to hire January 1st, 2027? I mean, they have to be gone forever.
- Like in 2027, the financial, we all understand that. People are going to get fired, positions eliminated.
- Forget reduction in their firings, they're eliminated. Longevity's gone. Maybe really need to start
- considering moving more departments back to $35. You put all those buckets together, does it get to
- your magical number that we, I understand you don't know that magical number yet. But you need to consider
- going back to $35.
- And there are inequities there. I mean, you know, department to department. And I mean, some, yeah,
- they're working a million hours. Maybe they need to work 40. A lot of people may, we can, we'll just
- tell 35. That's what we're doing. And that's how much stuff we get done in 35 hours. But anyway, there's
- a lot of buckets. 27 is going to be, it sounds like a ship ship. That sums it up.
- The question is, how is this going to affect the seasonal workers? For instance, I have 250 plus absentee
- workers that I hire every year for both elections, primary and general. So how does that affect them?
- But then also it's, we don't know what hours we're going to be working. Yes, early voting is open from
- eight to four, I mean, eight to six. But what happens when we have a line out the door and every person
- in that line at six o'clock gets to vote?
- then we're still there. Your regular employees are still there. We can't leave until everything's done,
- locked up and ready to go for the end of the night. And we have to pay them. Yeah. And then we don't
- have to turn you around. Yeah. We have no overtime for next year. So it's like, okay, what's that going
- to look like? But then you're also looking at election day. We're there every bit of 20 hours.
- It's not more. I get there at 4 a.m. No, 4 30 a.m.
- because our poll workers get to the polls at 5 a.m. I was not out of there until 3 a.m. last year. Okay.
- So I'm hearing that we need to think about the seasonal workers in a different way. I think that's very
- valid. Is there any thought as to when a department has received a no? Do you want to come back in six
- months with the same request?
- 12 months with the same request. PAC members, what do you think? Let me look at my council. Yes,
- you can. This is a serious conversation. Let's say you have
- A lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely position that you absolutely need. Council says, no, we don't have
- the money for it. What's the waiting period? What's the waiting period? Yes, it's forever. That's the
- question you asked. So because it's not getting any better. What about like the positions because like
- elections, I have to have a DNR in every position. So if I have one of my employees leave,
- I have to fill that position and that's the reason I love the request for me to document the need so
- that. Rather than just an email that says, I would like to hire it's it's getting all of that information
- explaining. Yeah.
- Isn't everyone going to say that that position is brutal? Yeah, but it's statutory. But am I going to
- back off on saying I need a highway engineer or a mechanic and say that it's not needed because I budgeted
- for it and it's there for a need and it's just going to be. Let's use that as an example. So you have
- the highway engineer who is the only position that does that job and then say you're also going to have
- uh, position that opens up and you have four of those positions. So we're going to look at, we're just
- going to, do you understand what, like the information that you're going to provide for the, the one
- person that's the only one that does that job may be a little bit different than you being
- able to accommodate for a little while when you have multiples. I'm just using that as an example. I
- don't know what it's going to look like, but just, I'm just trying to play devil's act. I mean,
- and I get it, but it's easy to sit here and,
- Sit at a table and say, Hey, Lisa, you've gotten 30 truck drivers. You'll be fine without four. When
- you go out there and 700 miles to plow and you have vehicles breaking down, but you're short a mechanic.
- It all goes hand in hand, but it's here and say, I don't need that position.
- If we get to 2027 and we need to reduce those, that's where I think it's the accommodating or fine.
- I'm not in that same budget. That's a whole different story, too. Yeah. So for getting on the table
- for that with the amount of positions, I have backups that I have to hire for during early voting and
- election day because of the fact of if somebody calls in last minute, I have to fill that position
- immediately. If I run out of those backups, do I come back again and wait
- until the next meeting in order to hire that person. Because I don't know if it's on the day. It is
- a different fund. And you clearly need to fill these positions, and you need to fill these positions.
- I think this is a completely different conversation. I think we need to come up with a different solution
- for our seasonal workers, particularly our stationary ones. I'm looking at the clock. Do we have to
- end at four? We do not have to end at four, but I need to leave.
- Cause I've got a kid getting off a bus. So I need to go pick up a kid off the bus. Can I turn it over
- to you? Okay. Okay. Whichever one. You're the season one. You're the season one. Thank you all. As long
- as you want to keep it going. Thank you all for being here. I thought this was really helping. I thought
- this was a very good conversation. Do we need to continue or you're all going to disappear now?
- I'm willing to talk if it's useful. Yeah, that's what I'm learning. I'm going to hang out and as long
- as we have something productive to talk about. So maybe my primary question would be what do you all
- and your departments think we should be doing instead? That would be my fundamental question. At this
- point agenda item number 4 exactly that would be my fundamental question. I know we don't have all the
- magic answers. I never pretend to do that.
- But I want to know what people want. What's your solution to the problem? I was just going to say,
- I mean, I've been asked for years if I can lose positions by attrition. And I said, no, I can't afford
- to lose. But that's exactly what you do. Yeah. And I can. I mean,
- If what you're saying is you want to do a systematic review of every department to decide if all of
- their positions are relevant or still necessary. I mean, good luck, but I think you're going to be hard
- pressed to find positions we don't need. But you know, my office, I have intentionally avoided trying
- to expand staff and requests for all kinds of equipment and other things. I mean, I have really,
- been a cheapskate for years, and now I feel like maybe I should've been redeared. All our support staff's
- 35 hours, whereas Fort's- They're already at 35. Yeah. Our employees are at 40 because they were already
- working 50 hours a week. I mean, but our support staff is still at 35. Other comparable departments
- are at 40. We've not asked to move
- to 40 as a sort of good faith, like we're just trying to do the right thing, but I feel like we've been
- punished now, you know, because if we were at 40, then if we lose a support staff, everybody's got five
- more hours a week to cover that. It seems to me like we're not all coming from the same position to
- begin with, right? So we're all on different levels from what I'm hearing to begin with. And so the
- question is, how do you equalize everything when you're not coming from the same place to begin with, right?
- How is that going to play out? Well, we all have different functions. I mean, we all have different
- statutory functions. The clerk has things they have to do. We have things we have to do. Everybody's
- got a different set of law that they're operating under. So it's just going to be, I mean,
- it is a challenging, I get where you're coming from, but it's just, I can't, we can't.
- We cannot keep going with the amount of extra hours my attorneys are putting in to get caseloads covered.
- Like, I will lose people, we will burn out, and we will have an unstaffed prosecutor's office, which
- is back in New York. So, I mean, we need funding from the state. There's no doubt about that.
- I mean, that would be an easy solution if they can count on that. I don't know. There's talk that something
- may happen. I don't know. I'm not counting on it. I didn't count on the first thing to happen. So I
- would not count on that. So we're in this whole mixed conundrum. It's a big mix up here where we find
- ourselves. Well, I know our General Assembly people are getting their butts kicked by all of their counties,
- all their county governments.
- And hopefully that will make a difference, but that's right. There's no guarantee, right? If we knew
- that that was going to happen for sure, I think there'd be a totally different conversation today. Totally
- different conversation. At least I would feel totally different about it. But, you know, there are no
- guarantees. And until something is done, you operate in the absence of that guarantee because you don't have it.
- And I think, unfortunately, you guys are in a position where you're going to have to be the ones to
- make a strategic decision for the county about what gets funded. I mean, it's easier for you guys to
- let us fight amongst ourselves, but I don't think that's healthiest for the county. I think you all
- need to come together and decide what
- You're willing to cut. So maybe a good prioritization of services. Yeah. I mean, that's what it's going
- to come down to is a lot of services. And I think that's a fair point to do. That's ultimately where
- I'm coming from is for like, you know, your department's best and it's helping council understand what
- should they be prioritizing and how do we figure that is? I don't know. I mean, maybe liaisons make
- an effort to, you know, meet up with their
- departments and learn more thoroughly who does exactly what and what's required and what's. And talk
- about the unevenness already. I would like to see the big picture. I'm a big picture gal, right? So
- how many do we have that a 35 hour department? How many do we have that or whatever? What are the, what
- are the disparities already? I want to know what we're starting with with the base right now. Right.
- And then how do we go about making some priorities based on trying to figure out this base
- and how inequitable it might be already.
- and then make those decisions based on that. You know what I mean? It's really quite the challenge,
- I think. And I'm not trying to shirk it. I'm just saying that we got to start from somewhere to figure
- this out. And I think as departments, we get a little frustrated. I mean, you guys are our liaisons.
- And I know you've both been to our office and whatnot. But I hear other departments say that they just
- have never talked. Like, how is the liaison supposed to represent at the council if they don't really
- know what's going on? I agree.
- I'm with you. Yeah, we're lucky. The prosecutor's office is lucky, but thank you. Yeah, it's just. Well,
- I would be willing to advocate for the council county council coming up with some sort of prioritization
- of services. I'm sure I'll whatever we're going to call them, right? We have to do something.
- I mean, I, you know, I can offer for my department that you can pay some of our stuff out of PS lit
- if you have PS lit available. Okay. But because we are, those are the kinds of conversations we need
- to hear, right? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So can the money come from somewhere else? That's a prime example
- of the, of the special we should be having with departments or other things like that, where the money
- could come from. Maybe it's not PS lit, maybe it's something else, right?
- Where could the money possibly come from if it's not what we're dealing with already? So. I think where
- this. This might be a whole council conversation. Why it is very in line with when. When a couple of
- years ago, we established the long term finance committee, it was not.
- Meant to have a consultant come in and tell us what to do with our yearly stuff, which is what it turned
- into. I mean, we've been very, I think I was very in favor of having the consultant come in to talk
- to us about certain things. But when I suggested this long term finance, meaning my thought was we would
- be doing priorities based long term strategic planning around
- Different fiscal needs for the county. And I think that we might need to get back to that. So you're
- saying this topic should go there. I mean, I think it needs to be, they need to be talking to each other.
- You know, if it's not in the long term finance committee, the long term finance committee needs to consider.
- The budgeting priorities, that was the idea behind it. Would the long term finance committee be the
- appropriate place to figure out. Based on your policies, a hiring freeze or reduction in force, how
- much money you. Need to through those processes to say, I think that ultimately.
- I don't think that they're equipped to do that right now. I don't think any of us are really equipped
- to do that right now because there's no certainty. It's just kind of all been blown up. What we thought
- was right was not. And we haven't spent any time talking about priorities. So not going to move. No,
- I think we've just been limping by trying to get at least through this year.
- for 2026, maybe hold some community conversations about it. Yeah, I, you know, I think that's the public
- that's going to suffer. I think we should talk. Well, yeah, I think that's always a good idea. Yeah.
- Listen to the people who we represent. Um, but in terms of this particular thing, the hiring freeze,
- I think we should have a conversation. Is it on our agenda for,
- Monday, I guess we had a meeting to talk about this about this meeting. I think when we debriefed about
- this meeting, we needed to be open to this concept of the delay. Or is there a specific goal that we're
- trying to achieve? Because I had asked that once before, and we just didn't know. I mean, the answer
- was no, just as much as we can, which, you know,
- I believe for that too. So, I mean, I'm not trying to be, I'm not being, you guys shouldn't have given
- us raises, shouldn't did longevity. I know that snowball though. Yeah. And again, there's seven people
- in council. I don't speak for all of them and we'll always agree on everything, but we are where we
- are. I think we should discuss the bigger picture during the debrief and, um,
- You know how we can maybe be more strategic because I do have one more thing because all the effort
- that we all are going to be doing. We're spending hours and. Right? When we should have been spending
- hours doing other things covering the vacancy. Yeah, covering the vacant decisions. I'm just saying
- I know nothing's good, but I mean all the hours. I mean, I'm like, oh my God, I don't have to carve
- out a few days just to get my pen ready.
- Is there a mechanism that you all have in place to track the savings from, you know, the vacant, you
- have an opposition that we've had? And that's, I think, what I'm offering. I can incorporate that into
- some type of report for capsules. And you can say no transfers. Yeah, we can see that. That'll take
- care of that battle. Yeah. What did she say? No transfers at all in the funds. Like if you save something.
- not transferring it down the line. We've done that with those. That'll save us some decisions on extradition,
- I guess. We don't have the money for it. We'll just banish everybody to other states, but not have them
- be responsible for the rate they get in 2023. I mean, these are the real things. That's right.
- That's right. It's the real reality. And that, yeah, because you made some budget
- sacrifices knowing that you could make transfers. I get what you're saying. We do, like the most years,
- we do end up having to move a little bit from the tens to cover depositions and extradition. So the
- short answer is we will pick this back up for people council on Monday and emphasize
- the points that you all have made here, which are recorded and our colleagues will watch, I'm sure.
- It's always fun. Yeah, I don't envy you guys at all. We don't have time to have chosen this path.
- What you said about the goal, I think it's really important because that's what makes it hard for these
- folks to be cooperative in the method that you're trying to act out. And the unequalness for me, to
- begin with, is a big thing for me. And you all know the unintended consequences as we're begging people
- not to retire, begging people not to quit. For performers, this isn't my job. You're like, oh gosh,
- We're going to have to keep that. And that's better than nothing. So all that's happening. No one's
- leaving payroll right now. Let's be honest, no one's going to be let off payroll. That's on today. Yeah.
- Yeah. Well, there's no incentive to do that. Right. Well, there's an incentive. Yeah.
- there's a cost to all of that too. Everything. That's true. That's true. I think we need to, yeah, we
- need to think about the strategy on this and a few other things and match our tactic to the strategy.
- And I'm sorry I don't have an answer. I know. I'm sure you all were hoping might come out of this meeting.
- At risk of ruining everything, do we?
- Do we think this is the form? I had to take my gun out. Do we anticipate this is the process for now,
- is this form? And we have no other vote on it. So do you have to vote at the regular council? Well,
- this committee would make a recommendation if we voted, and then vote. But you guys didn't even vote
- to make a recommendation. No. OK, so I don't feel we're at here.
- And I guess part of why I'm interested in whether we're accounting, like, I mean, we're already. Shouldering
- some of the debt for the county right now, because we have these vacant positions. Yeah, I would like
- that to be credited to us in some way in twenty twenty seven, you know, noted. Yeah, I get it. Yeah,
- I don't know at this point, to be honest.
- If I want to recommend this, I want to blow things up a little bit, to be quite honest, that I'm running
- out of this is I think we need to reopen and look at what are we doing and why. I hear you on Monday
- and it does not mean that in the meantime, Jim miles like what's running the meantime. Now's the time.
- OK. Is there a lot on the agenda?
- Uh, no, no, it's not. I mean, it's this, this was one of them. Are we discussing individual positions
- Monday? No, those were moved to the 18th. Lord, I'm sorry.
- because we needed to know what we were going to do about those positions. So in your defense, you did
- ask me if that would be a problem. Yeah. Yeah. And she consulted with me. I also said it was to wait
- and see. And then, uh, the, uh, the two positions that the highway has, she's not even going to be here
- on the 10th. So that's why it's, you know,
- It worked out where everything's going to be on. Do I have to be here on time? You're not, I'm not.
- Good question. Good question. Okay. Well, I think that we need to commit to some of this vision making
- on Monday. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I'm ready. On Monday, I will be ready.
- more time to think, more time to talk about it in public. Yeah. And come up with something that we can
- look at. I'm ready to advocate for that. Right. I mean, if you don't like this form, I mean,
- I don't like, it's not that I don't like the form. Right. I mean, yeah, it's, it's time consuming and
- like things. Exactly. So I mean, you can just get to the chase and say, right, is it statutory?
- Not statutory. Okay.
- And you all on the chopping block. It's sort of like, it's a long chart. Yeah. That's actually what
- I wrote right here. Decision three with a fund. We want a dissertation. Then, you know, exactly. You
- have an R and a D. Yeah. Yeah. Proceed to number two. Yeah. Let's not stop here. Exactly. Yeah.
- Decision tree. And I kind of feel like that might be where we,
- go if you stick to it. Then you know whether you're still going or not, right? Well, I'm a low hanging
- fruit here, so it is what it is. I understand. I understand it is what it is.