WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.520 - I'd like to call this meeting to order, and if you could kind of call the roll. Sure. 00:00:05.520 --> 00:00:14.800 - Scott Paris. Yeah. David Henry. 00:00:17.360 --> 00:00:29.840 - Well, you're joining us on line. Edward Omen there. Three fields here. Bush here. Julie Thomas here. 00:00:29.840 --> 00:00:37.920 - Our comments here. Okay. So David Henry has joined. Oh, here. Thank you. All right. So we have 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:44.400 - eight members in attendance in a quarter. Okay. This meeting today is solely administrative 00:00:44.400 --> 00:00:44.800 - business, 00:00:44.800 --> 00:00:51.280 - so we don't have to introduce any evidence in Mr. Brantford. And I think the first item on the 00:00:51.280 --> 00:01:00.720 - agenda is the CEO prioritization list. Yes. So this list, we're just moving on on this. Some 00:01:00.720 --> 00:01:06.960 - amendments. I'll provide a little bit of updates on this. So item number one is the actually first 00:01:06.960 --> 00:01:12.800 - item that we have under our discussion topics for administrative portion. Item number two, 00:01:12.800 --> 00:01:17.840 - we have a text amendment pending that's going to the county commissioners on Thursday. 00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:26.400 - We've removed item three items. Let's see, the next item that we've done is item number 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:33.840 - seven is also part of a text amendment that's going on Thursday. Item number eight is tangentially 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:43.200 - related to the items that you'll hear tonight as well as item number nine. And then items 13 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:49.360 - and 14 have been completed. So we are making good progress. Just want to keep everyone updated and 00:01:49.360 --> 00:01:52.960 - we'll continue to review this at the ordinance review committee and make sure that we're 00:01:52.960 --> 00:01:59.280 - hitting the next items appropriately and combining them or separating them as needed. 00:02:00.320 --> 00:02:08.560 - Okay, that sounds great. So then tonight, to follow this prioritization list, 00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:16.320 - we have the unfinished business of, or we have the discussion item on ZOA-23-3 and that's the 00:02:16.320 --> 00:02:22.000 - amendment to the county development ordinance concerning items one and nine from the CEO 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:27.760 - prioritization list. Do you want to review those with us? And before we get started on that, 00:02:27.760 --> 00:02:34.640 - I might just share one thing. Yes, there was a discussion at one of the ordinance review 00:02:34.640 --> 00:02:40.240 - committees that before this item come to the ordinance review committee next or the plan 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:47.280 - commission that we look at a housing inventory. So we have substantially drafted a housing 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:48.080 - inventory 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:56.000 - option. It was, we presented it to the ordinance review committee, but I'd like to present it here 00:02:56.000 --> 00:03:04.480 - tonight just to get some feedback. So what we've done so far is we created a survey that then feeds 00:03:04.480 --> 00:03:11.600 - into a map. On the legend here, do you have an orange? It says it's a screen that we have. 00:03:11.600 --> 00:03:25.120 - What else was seeing? Sorry. Oh, that's okay. So on the screen here, we have orange dots being that 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:32.880 - they received a site plan development or secondary flat approval. The green dots mean that they 00:03:32.880 --> 00:03:38.480 - actually are at the stage of building permits. And then the purple dots are just preliminary 00:03:38.480 --> 00:03:45.280 - approvals such as rezones or primary plan approvals. Now we've put together with the help of our 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:52.000 - surveyors office a dashboard just to give you a preview. So we did, we took like 12 different 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:59.760 - items that were very varied in size and location just to first get some data in here to see how 00:03:59.760 --> 00:04:06.000 - it would work. So for instance, when you pull this up, it will give you the address, it will say 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:06.160 - how 00:04:06.160 --> 00:04:12.800 - many lots are platted. So this one is three lots, minimum lot size, two and a half acres, number of 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:21.680 - buildings. So it gives you some related case file numbers and your approved 2023. So this model is 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:28.560 - a little bit, this is probably the best we can do, but it is challenging when you're dealing with 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:36.240 - rural small subdivisions all the way to like really dense multifamily housing. So we tried to 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:36.640 - create 00:04:36.640 --> 00:04:45.360 - some lateral comparisons such as units per acre. So for instance, Westgate has 9.8 units per acre. 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:54.400 - So it's much denser than say a minor subdivision which has 0.4 units per acre. So I will share this 00:04:54.400 --> 00:05:00.080 - with the plan commission. I meant to put it on the agenda. It went to ordinance review committee 00:05:00.080 --> 00:05:00.240 - and 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:05.360 - it split my mind for this packet, but I will make this available. And then what we're hoping to get 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:10.080 - is some feedback before we put in any further data just to make sure we're on the right track. 00:05:10.080 --> 00:05:15.600 - I look forward to seeing that. Where will that be available? Will you send it to us by email? 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:20.960 - I can send it to you by email. I don't necessarily want to publish it yet because it's not full 00:05:20.960 --> 00:05:26.320 - information, but it is a good start. It's public information. So how about I send it by email for 00:05:26.320 --> 00:05:31.040 - now? That sounds good. And then once we get a more solid version, I'll put it on the CDO website. 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:42.080 - That sounds great. So this provides us that meeting. So this gives information about what's 00:05:42.080 --> 00:05:50.560 - in the operator and what's coming. So then we still don't have the other side of this, which is 00:05:51.440 --> 00:06:02.320 - existing units. So in order to understand where things are at in the process, it could be the 00:06:02.320 --> 00:06:09.920 - same project that gets updated from an orange dot or a purple dot to a green dot. But I think that 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:15.840 - we have all of the data for building permits that we could upload as just another layer. 00:06:15.840 --> 00:06:23.200 - I'll just say here's all the building permits if we wanted that information. Now, I wasn't sure if 00:06:23.200 --> 00:06:30.480 - we... I think the scope was five years, city, county, Ellitsville, and there was more of a 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:36.000 - thought process that we would look at, approve subdivisions, approve re-zones, like kind of more 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:43.600 - in the purple or orange dot category. But at this juncture, because it's now 2025, some of those 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:49.440 - data have moved to orange. Right, yeah. So it'd be good to figure out a way to automatically 00:06:49.440 --> 00:06:58.080 - update that if that was possible, I don't know. And for me, the map is nice, but a spreadsheet, 00:06:58.080 --> 00:07:05.680 - if it has the information, is very useful because this takes a lot of work and a lot of updating, 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:12.160 - a lot of under the hood type of stuff, whereas if it's a spreadsheet with a number of units, 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:21.360 - et cetera, and we get it from the city, we get city information as well on apartments. Yes, Kathy? 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:28.240 - I mean, the survey, I don't know if you have access to it, but you can pull this data straight out 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:28.560 - or 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:33.660 - opened up, I believe, was what Jackie was saying. And it should be able to be made into a 00:07:33.660 --> 00:07:34.320 - spreadsheet. 00:07:34.880 --> 00:07:43.200 - But the city, there's Alexville, there's a hand entered survey. How much of their staff 00:07:43.200 --> 00:07:48.560 - is really going to participate in that is... Right. Right. I don't understand this whole area, 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:56.160 - so we can figure that out. Sorry, Scott. So I used to run two analysis divisions. 00:07:56.160 --> 00:08:03.440 - And so my point here is that the report generation portion of this feature, which you may or may 00:08:03.440 --> 00:08:03.600 - not 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:08.480 - have at this point, we should be able to find the type of reports that we're interested in seeing 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:15.200 - and then being able to open and put that into a spreadsheet or notebook or something like that. 00:08:15.200 --> 00:08:22.000 - So we can visually see that in front of us. Yeah. So if you might fill that question just with my 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:27.760 - experience of Perot, this filled out that Esri. Like right now she's showing what is called the 00:08:27.760 --> 00:08:35.200 - table attributes. That's pretty similar to an Excel. This data can be then put onto our Perot and 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:35.360 - it 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:41.760 - could be exported in a multitude of different ways of reporting. It could be very customized. 00:08:41.760 --> 00:08:46.880 - It can even have maps with the geographies that the points are part of the report. There's a lot 00:08:46.880 --> 00:08:53.600 - of dynamic capabilities to this. Sorry, Jackie, I was just in, you know, if that's the direction, 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:58.720 - there's a team and the surveyors often the GIS division that can help assist planning, 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:05.840 - but they already have a pretty good group of experts in there too. So the bells and whistles 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:12.000 - are nice, but they distract from just the raw number of units, you know, and I feel that the 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:20.320 - report and the map, we need to fully vet privacy issues and things like that. You know, I think 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:30.720 - that a spreadsheet and a list for an inventory is what I'm looking for. You know, I need a list. 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:38.560 - I want the big picture. I want 19 lines of data. I want to be able to throw it back up. 00:09:38.560 --> 00:09:47.680 - I don't know what I don't know at this point, but I need to be able to take and condense it 00:09:48.400 --> 00:09:55.120 - and make it clear and succinct. You want a summary. The garbage looking for detail, 00:09:55.120 --> 00:10:02.640 - you're looking for a summary of how many housing units are still. And you can do a trend analysis 00:10:02.640 --> 00:10:08.880 - and those sort of things. Yeah, that's all right. They're both valuable pieces of information. 00:10:08.880 --> 00:10:17.440 - We can tally those by year. You know, if the data is in a spreadsheet and a list, 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:25.200 - we can tally those and just doing a sum. But as long as the unit is defined and standardized. 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:30.560 - Right. But that's the data that's in the map can be moved into a spreadsheet. 00:10:30.560 --> 00:10:38.640 - I think the reverse is also true. The spreadsheet has to be correct. The map is a bell and a 00:10:38.640 --> 00:10:39.040 - whistle. 00:10:39.040 --> 00:10:44.560 - You know, I just feel that the spreadsheet has to be correct and we should be focusing on the 00:10:44.560 --> 00:10:52.720 - spreadsheet. How many units do we have in a certain development at a certain address rather than? 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:59.520 - I think they're mutually exclusive. I think the map shows the spreadsheet and the spreadsheet 00:10:59.520 --> 00:11:06.880 - is the data being displayed. They're not really separated unless we're using a different type of 00:11:06.880 --> 00:11:12.720 - format with Esri products. If it has a spatial location, if you have dates and things like that, 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:20.000 - you could do a spatial report from this year to that year. If you wanted to exclude everything 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:25.200 - from the city, you could do just the county. You could even exclude things from Ellisville if we're 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:30.240 - even tracking. I'm just saying you could do spatial reports. They're mutually exclusive and here 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:30.400 - the 00:11:30.400 --> 00:11:39.440 - report is the spreadsheet or the map is the spreadsheet. That's the right word, mutually 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:44.000 - exclusive. I think they're interlinked and interdependent, not exclusive. 00:11:44.000 --> 00:12:02.480 - We have a public notice map where we show on the map where all the petitions are coming up, 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:07.280 - so tying it geographically is always helpful for the public. I think there's a use for both. 00:12:08.640 --> 00:12:13.440 - If we do the spreadsheet, the nice thing about this is that this is just a template. 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:18.720 - I will just do the spreadsheet and it just populates the map. I don't have to do anything else, 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:22.800 - but I do want to make sure that the columns of data we're filling out is what you're looking 00:12:22.800 --> 00:12:30.560 - for because that's wrong. If that's wrong, then the map is wrong. Where's all the data being pulled 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:40.960 - from? A variety of sources. Is it being housed in a database in ESRI or is it 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:48.320 - coming from a variety of different places? Because if you had it in one central repository, then 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:48.480 - you 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:55.200 - can make your reports. The data is stored on the server in our SBE and then they're pulled from 00:12:55.920 --> 00:13:02.320 - different databases. Some of it, if we have parcel data, could be a combination of our 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:08.240 - LAL software in the auditor's office or our KMN in our assessor's office. Also, planning has 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:15.040 - data sets that's stored in our SBE. If anything's stored on ESRI, that would be like a live atlas, 00:13:15.040 --> 00:13:21.200 - which might be kind of the background map, some road layers, but everything as I know is 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:30.080 - stored internal or on ATO, which is maintained by us. That's kind of a cloud, but still a separate 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:36.320 - way for us to upload data, publish data, and it's stored on the ATO environment. We have a portal, 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:43.360 - so with the portal, it's stored on our servers, hosted on an online environment that creates 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:49.280 - services that can be fed into these various different maps. It's a consortium of data. 00:13:49.280 --> 00:13:54.880 - Yeah, so I think that what he's asking is a lot of the data comes from the building department. 00:13:54.880 --> 00:14:01.600 - Yeah, and it also comes from our black commission packets and commissioner packets, because things 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:09.360 - are in various states of completion, and so we have what was approved, whether or not there have 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:09.600 - been 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:17.760 - amendments, etc. So, you know, it comes from a variety of channels. I think you're also getting 00:14:17.760 --> 00:14:21.360 - at the point of how do we make this more sustainable? Maybe, well, in the long run, 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:26.160 - how do we add those questions built in in the beginning? And that's why I go back to, 00:14:26.160 --> 00:14:32.320 - it's really challenging to compare rural-type subdivisions in the same spreadsheet as a 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:38.800 - multifamily development, because those questions, how many beds are in a rural forelot? So, 00:14:38.800 --> 00:14:44.320 - it just doesn't make sense, but in a more urban environment, it does. So, we wouldn't be asking 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:48.960 - those questions if that's a project that comes right in the tube. This is for you, Tron, because 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:57.040 - if you have to educate me. We have a multitude of databases, okay, and there are a multitude of 00:14:57.040 --> 00:15:05.680 - portals, just one port access database. It pulls that data and relates. There's multiple databases, 00:15:05.680 --> 00:15:12.400 - which then there are scripts that pull that data, that house it, then we publish it up. But what 00:15:12.400 --> 00:15:17.840 - planning is doing right now may not be that in-depth dynamic, like Jackie said, she's building out 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:23.920 - templates. So, I can directly answer your question, but that might not be directly related to what 00:15:23.920 --> 00:15:31.280 - Jackie's showing us. So, we pull those data and then we publish them and post them. But if you're 00:15:31.280 --> 00:15:37.440 - talking about like a beacon site, they got a connection where they just actually run a script 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:43.040 - nightly and pull that nightly. So, that's not hosted on our board. So, I think that makes sense. 00:15:43.040 --> 00:15:51.520 - I'm concerned about one basic premise because when I did the housing inventory, the unit of measure 00:15:51.520 --> 00:15:58.640 - was diverse. Like the city measured things by bedroom and we measured things by house. 00:15:59.760 --> 00:16:08.800 - And we don't rent, so I'm going to call every apartment complex and get from them how many 00:16:08.800 --> 00:16:14.880 - apartments do you have because the city is renting them by the bedroom. For comparability, 00:16:14.880 --> 00:16:24.800 - if we have the bedroom data, fine. But I want the unit data because those properties were approved 00:16:24.800 --> 00:16:33.440 - as multifamily units. And the number of bedrooms concerns us less than how many multifamily units 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:43.040 - they have in Echo Heart or how many multifamily units they have in Evolve, so that we have 00:16:43.040 --> 00:16:49.760 - comparability. So, luckily for the PUDs that we have that I added in here, we had both unit count 00:16:49.760 --> 00:16:54.960 - and bedroom count, but I definitely agree over time it's going to be more and more challenging 00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:59.760 - for us to look at by bedrooms. Yes, just not something that we typically... Oh my gosh. 00:16:59.760 --> 00:17:12.480 - So, this is county data. So, like I have the Westgate project, for instance. This is based on 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:19.200 - their latest amendment where they switched the first floor commercial. So, 371 units, 511 beds. 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:33.680 - But I think it is fine. I think the problem is getting into bedroom counts is difficult because 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:40.080 - while it is a record at the assessor's office, that is not always accurate anyway. Exactly. So, 00:17:40.080 --> 00:17:46.800 - but I do think the one thing I thought of as you were talking is I think it will also be important 00:17:46.800 --> 00:17:58.320 - to count add-ins and add-ins as well. And I don't know that that's part of, that's just so recent, 00:17:58.320 --> 00:18:06.720 - but in terms of usage. But I think it will be important to add that as a living space because 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:16.160 - you wouldn't build it unless you were renting or using it. They can do it by right. They can do it 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:20.880 - by right. So we'd only be getting to building permits. Yeah, but the building permits would 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:27.840 - be there, right? Like the permit numbers. Yeah. We could put in building permit numbers. It's just 00:18:27.840 --> 00:18:35.040 - going to start to look really busy. Oh, yeah. I guess I'm thinking in terms of, I would really 00:18:35.040 --> 00:18:41.680 - like to know how many have been built. Yeah. Sure. Okay. You know, I mean, those are housing units. 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:48.400 - I would love to know if 10 have been built or a hundred or a thousand. But somewhere in between. 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:54.080 - Yeah. I think it's between a hundred and a thousand. But I mean, there are things like that that 00:18:54.080 --> 00:19:01.520 - increased affordability of housing, increased housing options. And I don't think we should 00:19:01.520 --> 00:19:06.880 - forget. Okay. So as far as that's concerned, that doesn't have to be the standardized unit 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:14.160 - of comparison is really important to me. And so add-us and add-us should be separate too. 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:18.960 - And those should be defined so that they can be comparable within this, between the city and the 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:25.760 - county and between within the county and within the city. So a detached accessory dwelling unit, 00:19:25.760 --> 00:19:36.080 - a detached dwelling unit. I just, I mean, isn't that like a whole expansion? An accessory dwelling 00:19:36.080 --> 00:19:42.000 - unit is attached, detached and separate. But isn't that just an enlargement of a home? 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:47.200 - I mean, not necessarily. It's a separate. Yeah, separate. It's entirely separate. And so then 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:54.560 - that turns a single family home into a dual family home and a multi-family home. So then the unit 00:19:54.560 --> 00:19:54.720 - of 00:19:54.720 --> 00:20:06.310 - measurement on that block becomes a multi-family home. Okay, I think I'll give you all the 00:20:06.310 --> 00:20:06.960 - spreadsheet 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:12.400 - because it also has the list of options. So I'll send you the survey and the list of options too. 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:20.320 - What do you call it? Housing inventory. Thank you very much. Because I know it shouldn't be too 00:20:20.320 --> 00:20:26.640 - hard for you to extrapolate the data. But would it be possible to add, and maybe I missed it as 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:34.240 - you scroll through the columns, but add a column on what the zone is for that line item. And then 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:43.600 - perhaps if it had to go through a rezone to get to that, what the previous zone. And if I'm not 00:20:43.600 --> 00:20:43.920 - being 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:52.560 - too much, if it would be possible on just maybe on a percentage, what's the most dominant 00:20:52.560 --> 00:20:52.960 - neighboring 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:59.840 - zone? So prior zone is going to be a little bit of a challenge just in the CDL map. So do you want 00:20:59.840 --> 00:21:07.680 - all the prior zoning from the-- or do you want petitions from the public? You can ditch prior 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:12.720 - zone immediately if it's too much of a challenge. I just would like to know if it went through a 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:20.480 - rezone in the process of being subdivided. And then I'm just curious about neighboring zoning. 00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:26.240 - So rezone required, current zoning, and then do you have anything else about prior zoning? Because 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:34.080 - prior zone is going to get a little challenging. We can ditch the prior zone, yeah. Unless you 00:21:34.080 --> 00:21:38.480 - have that data easily attainable, don't worry about it. But I just would also be really interested 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:38.720 - in 00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:46.880 - like neighboring zoning. It doesn't need to be depicted on the map, but I mean. That's another 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:52.720 - way to do it, because you can add the layer of the zoning. But still, I'm curious if you have a 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:58.720 - column in my spreadsheet and you're going to have maybe five different zones that are surrounding 00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:05.600 - that thing. Well, that's why I was just saying. I was just requesting the majority. That's more 00:22:05.600 --> 00:22:13.200 - individual. I think better things. So you're doing that. I'm one that I've by all my layers 00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:17.120 - always that way too many columns because I'll be able to just extrapolate a spreadsheet and go 00:22:17.120 --> 00:22:23.780 - from there. Yeah. So, but it's, I don't know. I just think it would be valuable for my 00:22:23.780 --> 00:22:24.320 - understanding 00:22:24.320 --> 00:22:30.910 - of, at least for me personally, what's neighboring, what's adjacent, and how if it had to go 00:22:30.910 --> 00:22:31.120 - through 00:22:31.120 --> 00:22:37.120 - a reason to get to that. Okay. Does anybody else have any constructive comments for 00:22:37.120 --> 00:22:44.080 - Jackie and Amy on this? I don't know if mine were constructive. I just feel like I didn't work. 00:22:44.080 --> 00:22:51.920 - Yes. To say that to Edward's point, I think a zoning map would be good. I think maybe thinking 00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:57.920 - moving forward, putting in some type of versioning with the zoning layer will track as things are 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:04.640 - changed what they were previously. So as we move forward, that data could be there, and then 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:12.080 - incorporating kind of the zoning map. There might be a way to kind of highlight like which one 00:23:12.080 --> 00:23:18.000 - adjacent to us as a majority zone, but I don't know if there's a tool or something. 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:25.840 - With the timeline, you know, if they put in the year for the zone, you can have a slider bar, 00:23:25.840 --> 00:23:29.920 - but that's a lot of information they've got to load in, and I think it gets in the way. 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:38.320 - I mean that could be added on later, but as far as having an inventory, that's priority number one. 00:23:38.320 --> 00:23:43.360 - Yep, and that's what I'm getting at. Some of this is automated, so it'd be a less of a manual lift 00:23:43.360 --> 00:23:47.680 - for painting if they wanted to move in that direction. Yeah, the zoning, you know, if it's 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:54.800 - associated with year, eventually five years down the road, a slider bar could be installed and you'd 00:23:54.800 --> 00:24:03.600 - see the zoning change over time. Is this all doable? Yeah, that's doable. These changes are doable. 00:24:03.600 --> 00:24:08.640 - I think I haven't dug into the city data, so I appreciate what Margaret's comment about 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:16.160 - standardizing the data. I don't know how else the data will be, honestly. Keeping it up will be 00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:21.440 - challenging, just even in the time period that we started this to now. I don't see one moving the 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:26.800 - building permit, and it's, you know, the color coding is helpful in a way, but like Westgate's 00:24:26.800 --> 00:24:32.400 - a good example where about half of the project is underway, so half of the project is underway, 00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:38.320 - so I'm kind of getting a sense that some people have different interests in the data, 00:24:38.320 --> 00:24:48.240 - so it sounds like some of housing units work, and maybe also geographic location of that 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:53.440 - information, and then just like the process to get there, the timeline to get there. 00:24:53.440 --> 00:25:03.040 - Is there any, I'm just trying to make your life easier, not harder, but is there any way 00:25:03.040 --> 00:25:16.160 - data can just be moved into that data set without you having to, or maybe just- 00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:18.480 - For the county. - Yeah, for the county, we could. 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:24.400 - Okay, so it could be the building permits still get bought, but that would still not be up. 00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:28.240 - But then we are missing a piece still, especially with the city, 00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:31.840 - in terms of vacancies in apartments. - That's gonna be really- 00:25:31.840 --> 00:25:37.680 - That one, I don't even know how we're gonna, how that gets done, and that's not your worry, 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:48.560 - it's like something that, I just keep hearing that that grade is like 60%, 50% in a lot of 00:25:48.560 --> 00:25:53.200 - the new apartments. How long do they do it? - Well, they overfill. 00:25:53.200 --> 00:26:02.960 - Yeah, I don't know how, I don't know if anybody does that, but anyway. 00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:08.640 - Tammy had a question or comment, you have your- - It was very much tied 00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:13.200 - to the Ellensville and City of Wilmington, and how do we get them to fill out those surveys? 00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:19.280 - I don't think we asked them to fill out the surveys because the hand information was 00:26:19.280 --> 00:26:27.760 - inaccurate and also distorted in terms of the metrics they were collecting, so I provided 00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:35.760 - some backbone that you can go validate and verify with the building department. They're the ones 00:26:35.760 --> 00:26:36.000 - who 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:42.080 - know, and they're the ones with the standardized unit. And sometimes in the file, it's just the 00:26:42.080 --> 00:26:47.920 - back of an envelope, the number of units that they're talking about. And then where there was 00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:55.440 - discrepancy, I reconciled it by calling the owner of the apartment building and asked about their 00:26:55.440 --> 00:27:01.520 - units. What about what's on the first floor? Is that commercial space being changed and converted 00:27:01.520 --> 00:27:10.480 - into bedrooms? How many units do you have? And vacancies are proprietary information, so 00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:18.080 - focus less on vacancy. And I would like to see the inventory rather than the bells and whistles. 00:27:18.080 --> 00:27:18.480 - The 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:26.000 - bells and whistles can all be uploaded into a map with Esri. So the data needs to be clean. 00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:30.800 - And that's what I want to see first, because I look at that map and it's like, okay, that's 00:27:30.800 --> 00:27:40.480 - the end product. I want to see a list of what exists where, what category, yes, and how many 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:49.600 - units are there. And there's going to be that gap, right? Like, we know buildings are going to be 00:27:49.600 --> 00:27:49.600 - there, but with that, 00:27:49.600 --> 00:27:57.680 - we don't know how it feels. That's another issue. But so we have that, and then we have the City 00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:04.880 - Plan Commission, Ashley, and there is a gap that's always going to be there, right? So I think we 00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:05.040 - go 00:28:05.040 --> 00:28:10.800 - with the building permits, not the City Plan Commission. Okay. Because I think that's too 00:28:10.800 --> 00:28:17.760 - hard to track. Except that, except that if you have these zombie huge developments, because the 00:28:17.760 --> 00:28:18.080 - Plan 00:28:18.080 --> 00:28:24.240 - Commission has approved it and nobody has applied for a permit, then you've got a mismanaged and 00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:29.120 - misplans. I see what you're saying. So you've got to go with the Plan Commission documents. Yeah. 00:28:30.080 --> 00:28:35.520 - Some of them go to council, so you would have... Well, but not all of them. But not all of them. 00:28:35.520 --> 00:28:41.520 - So I went to the commissioners because that's the final authority. If it got approved and it's 00:28:41.520 --> 00:28:48.160 - approved at 371 or 92 units, that's what you use until it's changed. And if there's a variance, 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:56.400 - then you change it to, you know, 373 units or 186 units from 97. But you have to do that. That's 00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:04.240 - what I mean about the data. It has to be high quality. The picture is way less important. Yeah. 00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:16.800 - Why is the vacancy proprietary? The owners are required to give it. So unless this county 00:29:16.800 --> 00:29:24.560 - made a requirement that they had to divulge and report once a year on their vacancy rate, 00:29:25.520 --> 00:29:32.960 - they're not obliged to. It's proprietary. And it's marketing research, which is proprietary. 00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:39.680 - There's something about reading the research about that information. 00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:47.120 - I think that will be rather difficult. Right. So because it's not the same, 00:29:47.120 --> 00:30:04.320 - all your districts. Yes. And just my thing is we're kind of moving in a direction that 00:30:04.320 --> 00:30:10.320 - we've never really seen kind of this type of goal of a housing inventory related to 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:18.640 - multiple jurisdictions, how they're developing. And I think what Jackie put together is a great 00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:25.920 - start. I think we all really have to move with a very slow pace. And as she presents things, 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:30.560 - I feel like they'll continue to be refined and eventually we'll get a good product. 00:30:30.560 --> 00:30:36.320 - So once we do that, the planning can keep up. And then 10 years down the road, the problem will be 00:30:36.320 --> 00:30:42.400 - when like, oh, how are we able to conduct business without this information, without this tool? 00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:50.080 - So my expectations are set to kind of look at this as a prototype as we move forward or find it and 00:30:50.080 --> 00:30:57.920 - try to improve the data. There's a lot of different ways to filter the data to find like anomalies, 00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:07.200 - inaccuracies, errors, whatever. But I don't expect the turnaround like anytime soon with a full 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:13.280 - encompassing of what's going on in the county. But if you think about how we can track that in 00:31:13.280 --> 00:31:18.480 - 10 years from now, we are catching all that data, I think would be magnificent. And that's kind of 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:23.760 - where I think small thoughts are around this matter. And I think that sets up a better 00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:31.520 - trajectory and expectations for what type of housing stock inventory that you end up coming 00:31:31.520 --> 00:31:36.480 - with. Because everything we're talking about, and I know how messy the data is, I truly do, 00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:40.080 - it's going to take a long time. But I think you're moving in a great direction, 00:31:40.080 --> 00:31:43.280 - even willing to tackle this. I just really wanted to say that. 00:31:43.280 --> 00:31:51.600 - I would like to just say I'm less interested in a product and more interested in the planning 00:31:52.320 --> 00:31:58.400 - document inventory so that we know when somebody comes in and claims that there's a housing 00:31:58.400 --> 00:31:59.280 - shortage, 00:31:59.280 --> 00:32:06.080 - we can say exactly where is the housing shortage there? Do you realize that there are these 00:32:06.080 --> 00:32:11.840 - PUDs that have been approved? Have you spoken with that builder? If you're interested for that 00:32:11.840 --> 00:32:16.880 - developer, if you're interested to build, there is a PUD that's approved that you can take 00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:17.440 - advantage 00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:22.880 - of. That way we're good stewards of the land and of our resources. So you actually would not want 00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:29.520 - to see building permit data so much because that would mean I want that it would be counted both. 00:32:29.520 --> 00:32:38.080 - Okay. And I did vote. So there's a PUD head start. There's a PUD head start and the city data 00:32:38.080 --> 00:32:46.160 - is there. And I think it is a matter of urgency. And the product is not so important as the list. 00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:52.800 - Okay. If I may, I've listened to a lot of this. I know I'm remote today. So I mean, I see these as 00:32:52.800 --> 00:32:59.920 - stepwise in a project plan and not -- there's a lot of -- I'm hearing a lot of convolution of 00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:00.640 - things. 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:07.520 - And so I want to maybe step back to say, to just reiterate what I heard from the surveyor and 00:33:07.520 --> 00:33:07.680 - others 00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:14.000 - that have worked with ESRI solutions that an ESRI tool consumes CSV files and creates visualizations. 00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:18.480 - So, like, I think -- I don't know if we're talking past each other about product versus data, 00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:25.680 - but the tool consumes Excel files to generate the visualization. So you get one -- and you get both 00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:30.920 - for the price of one and the development of a good clean data set. I heard the surveyor make a 00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:31.280 - comment 00:33:31.280 --> 00:33:35.520 - about how the data is a little dirty because obviously recorder data versus assessor data 00:33:35.520 --> 00:33:40.640 - versus R data versus building permit data calls things different by different names and who owns 00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:47.680 - what. And so I think getting just a standard column or, like, just the requirement of what we 00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:53.120 - call things, once that's calibrated, it doesn't matter what you display in the map. It will 00:33:53.120 --> 00:33:57.200 - display the columns that you're creating in that space. I hope that makes sense to folks in the 00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:01.520 - room, but I think we're fighting the technology jargon without maybe an ESRI brief on how the 00:34:01.520 --> 00:34:06.960 - tool works. Other than that, I mean, I agree with the surveyor's comment that we are delving into 00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:12.960 - some kind of philosophical or kind of positional statements versus just getting the data. So for 00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:16.800 - my seat, I'd just like to see the data, and then we can start making discussions about what that 00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:22.720 - data does or supports or doesn't support in terms of policy. But that's my two cents on this today, 00:34:22.720 --> 00:34:26.560 - other than to say I think this is a really good start, and anytime we can visualize data for easy 00:34:26.560 --> 00:34:33.440 - consumption and dashboarding is useful to the public. Thanks. >> Okay. Anybody else with any 00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:43.200 - comments or -- okay, we're moving on to -- for discussion, ZOA-25-3 for an amendment 00:34:43.200 --> 00:34:52.480 - to the county development ordinance. >> So this is an IM4 discussion. We do not have this going 00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:57.840 - to the planned commission this month for the regular meeting. This is -- I think the trajectory 00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:03.120 - of this would be to go back to the ordinance review committee and get a little bit more detail 00:35:03.120 --> 00:35:09.120 - into what the ordinance would contain. But we had a productive ordinance review committee meeting. 00:35:09.120 --> 00:35:15.920 - We met on May 12th. Mr. Enright-Rando and Mr. Farris were both present for that meeting, 00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:22.800 - and we discussed the sliding scale 25-year reservation. So it provided a little bit of 00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:29.520 - information, a little bit of the conversation that happened, and also kind of what came of that. So 00:35:29.520 --> 00:35:36.450 - there were some discussions related to sliding scale about packaging plan versus septic versus 00:35:36.450 --> 00:35:36.720 - sewer. 00:35:36.720 --> 00:35:44.480 - Also, if we were to create more lots versus, you know, the lots, the number of lots we create now, 00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:50.720 - would that require more public improvements? So we tried to hash that out into just a beginner 00:35:50.720 --> 00:35:57.760 - red line version of the sliding scale subdivision. So at any point, if you have questions or if you 00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:04.000 - want to talk through any of this, I would be happy to do so. So I'm going to start with the text 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:11.730 - amendment first, and then I will go back to some of the red line information. So this is specific 00:36:11.730 --> 00:36:12.000 - to 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:19.360 - the sliding scale subdivision. What we discussed at the ordinance review committee was creating 00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:29.440 - more than four lots in a rural area. So right now we have between 9.10 acres to about 40 acres, 00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:34.800 - we can create four lots. We do not have any other option other than a major subdivision of the 00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:35.360 - county 00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:41.320 - on subject that creates 10 acre lots. There's not an option in the county that exists for people 00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:41.440 - that 00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:48.880 - have large tracts of land to create smaller lots, such as two and a half acre lot sizes. So we have 00:36:49.680 --> 00:36:56.880 - in here a red text amendment regarding what the changes could be. We thought it might be helpful 00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:02.200 - as staff to review these as a minor sliding scale, which would be kind of in keeping with the 00:37:02.200 --> 00:37:02.880 - original 00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:11.680 - text today. And then a major sliding scale, because after you get to five lots, you do have other 00:37:11.680 --> 00:37:18.480 - related requirements in the ordinance. So we don't have different criteria for those. We will then 00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:25.120 - have to amend other parts of the ordinance, so we can talk through any number of those. So related 00:37:25.120 --> 00:37:33.440 - to this, there was also a discussion about striking the 25-year reservation altogether. This was a 00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:40.160 - tabled option or a tabled item from the CDO hearings. We all discussed it. We looked at 00:37:40.160 --> 00:37:45.600 - the meeting minutes of when sliding scale was created, and it was discussed at the CDO work 00:37:45.600 --> 00:37:50.880 - sessions that we will table this and talk about it after the CDO has passed. The CDO has passed, 00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:57.200 - and now we're trying to come up with either a different number of years or what we would 00:37:57.200 --> 00:38:01.840 - like to do with this. And the Ordinance Review Committee wanted to start the discussion off with, 00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:07.440 - what if we just removed it? So that is one of the discussion points that I want to talk about today. 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:16.240 - I also added in here the table that we review different subdivisions by. So I do think that 00:38:16.240 --> 00:38:23.360 - if we are considering creating five or more, five to 10 months under the sliding scale option, 00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:29.120 - that we need to start thinking about what public improvements would be required different than 00:38:29.120 --> 00:38:35.280 - just creating four lots. One of the things that we have in the ordinance currently is regarding the 00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:43.600 - number of people that can access off of one driveway or one easement. It does require it 00:38:43.600 --> 00:38:49.120 - to come up to public standards. So public county law standards. So that would be something that's 00:38:49.120 --> 00:38:54.560 - tied in between different ordinances, different versions of the code. The highways code as well 00:38:54.560 --> 00:39:00.430 - has some requirements. So this is something that's quite important. The distinction of five lots 00:39:00.430 --> 00:39:00.640 - does 00:39:00.640 --> 00:39:08.160 - kick it into the question what other standards require. So I could go into some of these standards 00:39:08.160 --> 00:39:16.160 - right now. The one that I want to mention specifically is in regard to the packaging plant. 00:39:16.160 --> 00:39:23.440 - So if we were to add package sewage treatment plant as a text amendment here, you know the state 00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:29.200 - code I think would recognize right now that packaging plants likely are under a sanitary 00:39:29.200 --> 00:39:35.120 - sewer system because it's not a private sanitary sewer system. But if we were to add this to make 00:39:35.120 --> 00:39:41.200 - it very clear to the public and then a definition for packaging plants, that's something that we 00:39:41.200 --> 00:39:47.200 - could do under here. But you are opening up this type of subdivision to any large lot that has over 00:39:47.200 --> 00:39:55.360 - you know 100 acres let's say to creating 10 lots anywhere in the county. So that's you know it does 00:39:55.360 --> 00:40:01.200 - take a different approach for you know trips per day that you're considering. So a lot we think 00:40:01.200 --> 00:40:06.080 - about road width and those considerations and if every person along that way is doing it that could 00:40:06.080 --> 00:40:13.360 - add up to quite a bit of people. It takes into consideration fire, police services, schools. 00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:19.760 - So it's just a bit more to think about especially in the rural areas. So it's something that we 00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:19.920 - want 00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:28.160 - to discuss with you. So I think that's it for most of my introduction into this item and I'm 00:40:28.160 --> 00:40:34.160 - happy to go through some of the red and black text to go over what the ORC discussed but I want to 00:40:34.160 --> 00:40:34.320 - ask. 00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:40.160 - Okay I just wanted to because there was only two people at the ORC. 00:40:40.160 --> 00:40:49.200 - Mr. Ferris wanted to move this along and I was supportive doing that. At first I was like okay 00:40:49.200 --> 00:40:55.120 - maybe we should wait until we have a larger board, the four of us to really discuss that. 00:40:55.120 --> 00:40:59.360 - And what I'm really trying to do is just kind of let everyone get a sense of where I was. Like 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:07.440 - if you go to page nine I think you know I was kind of thinking in context how can we 00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:18.320 - create some more relief based off of page nine on the actual thing. Relief from putting things 00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:28.720 - into a moratorium or allowing maybe two more lots and I was like well maybe the size. And then as 00:41:28.720 --> 00:41:33.920 - I'm talking about that I'm like kind of walking it back at the same time because it's like we don't 00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:39.280 - want to build too much without having the right infrastructure. So like at some stages it's like 00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:46.560 - almost chasing your own tail to get it right. So and then talked about the packaging plant and 00:41:46.560 --> 00:41:52.960 - it's like you know I'm not too fond of the idea of allowing a lot of HOAs managing a packaging 00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:53.360 - plant 00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:58.960 - either. And then one other thing that kind of resonated with me real well was like the 00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:06.160 - cluster subdivisions like that could actually preserve these larger lots which is some of our 00:42:06.160 --> 00:42:12.080 - intent is like you know we want to preserve these larger lots but we only allow them to divide them 00:42:12.080 --> 00:42:18.240 - in 10 acre slivers. That's not preserving a larger lot that's creating a lot of 00:42:18.240 --> 00:42:24.560 - large lots my opinion but if we look at cluster subdivisions then you know like 20 of those acres 00:42:24.560 --> 00:42:32.000 - could create those lots but now we're preserving 80 acres. So you know but just I don't know if 00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:37.680 - that really makes too much sense. Like I said at one point I was kind of backtracking some of my 00:42:37.680 --> 00:42:44.880 - comments and kind of felt like I was chasing my own tail but that's kind of where my thoughts were 00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:49.760 - along the discussion and since we're here talking with everyone I was really hoping to hear 00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:50.160 - everyone 00:42:50.160 --> 00:42:56.160 - else's and this is pretty much all I really wanted to say before I just listened. Yeah 00:42:56.160 --> 00:43:05.200 - I'm kind of mixed apples and oranges here and I don't advise doing that. The historical 00:43:07.520 --> 00:43:18.080 - This is after John Rodin passed away a couple weeks ago. So I remember working with Richard Martin, 00:43:18.080 --> 00:43:27.840 - John Rodin on this sliding scale and it has a history that you have to understand before you 00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:37.040 - even start saying oh it's too much it's this way. So I'll be brief first and foremost I don't think 00:43:37.520 --> 00:43:44.640 - people have an issue with sliding scale because they use it. The reason it came up over and over 00:43:44.640 --> 00:43:51.600 - again in the ordinance CDO public listening sessions was because people didn't understand 00:43:51.600 --> 00:43:58.780 - it. There was misinformation probably purposefully issued about what they are and people thought 00:43:58.780 --> 00:43:59.280 - every 00:44:00.080 --> 00:44:07.600 - development every subdivision has a 2500 moratorium on it which is not true. And I think 00:44:07.600 --> 00:44:13.070 - if we break that record and make sure people know that we can go back and say now really what do 00:44:13.070 --> 00:44:13.120 - you 00:44:13.120 --> 00:44:19.040 - want to change about because that's what I kept hearing when I dig in and talk to people after 00:44:19.040 --> 00:44:23.840 - their public comments they'd say yeah but I just want to you know split my one it's like well you 00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:30.480 - don't need to do a sliding scale that's subdivision you can do that. So people absolutely 00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:37.600 - misunderstood what it is and how it's used. The goal is to prevent sprawl. You don't do that by 00:44:37.600 --> 00:44:48.640 - creating a whole bunch of half acre lots and cram you know 50 houses onto 100 acres and say well 00:44:48.640 --> 00:44:54.640 - look we've just done a sliding scale. That's not the goal. The goal was for people who said to us 00:44:54.640 --> 00:45:03.840 - years ago years and years ago I'm a farmer. I own this lot. I don't want to sell off my entire 00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:11.840 - property. I want two lots for my kids and a third lot I want to sell so I can go on a trip 00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:18.640 - this requirement. That's what we heard and that's what we responded to. This has all been lost 00:45:18.640 --> 00:45:23.600 - in translation since that time and it wasn't all that long ago because I'm old but I'm not though. 00:45:23.600 --> 00:45:30.480 - So I want to start with that. Plaster subdivisions are different. We're not talking about them. 00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:37.840 - Different. So I think the first thing we have to do is make sure people understand what a sliding 00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:46.080 - scale is and what it's used for. Why we went to that. Why it was selected as a method of 00:45:46.080 --> 00:45:53.760 - a different type of development for people who have 100 acres 40 acres and they don't want to 00:45:53.760 --> 00:46:01.600 - sell everything off. They want to preserve most of it and you know put their kids there or whatever 00:46:01.600 --> 00:46:08.510 - it might be. That was the whole reason for sliding scale. You don't have to use it. You don't have 00:46:08.510 --> 00:46:08.560 - to use it. 00:46:08.560 --> 00:46:12.400 - That misinformation went out and it's been embedded. I don't want to break that myth. 00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:16.320 - Now I don't want to do that. I don't know. I'm going to get a billboard. 00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:25.360 - The city that are studying sewer and how a lot of these are conditioned to sewer. So if you 00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:32.720 - kind of bake that into that. My talking points aren't so abstract. Like we don't want to talk 00:46:32.720 --> 00:46:37.120 - about cluster subdivisions and then talk about sliding scale. They're different things. No I said 00:46:37.120 --> 00:46:41.760 - that resonated with me. That was one thing that resonated with me. The reason the reason sewer does 00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:50.560 - is because these are out in the county. We don't have a lot of 80 140 acre lots right next to the 00:46:50.560 --> 00:46:57.120 - city where sewer is accessible. If we did then the city should be providing sewer service. 00:46:57.120 --> 00:47:04.480 - Yes you could do a package plant with three homes. It's very expensive to do with three homes. 00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:11.040 - I'm not sure that that's an option. I don't have any issue with package plants. I don't. They don't 00:47:11.040 --> 00:47:16.400 - work everywhere. We found that out. I thought you could do one anywhere. Apparently you can't. 00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:24.400 - We learned that this last couple years. So anyway I'm not taking. I think these are three separate 00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:34.480 - discussions. Package plants, cluster subdivisions, sliding scale. And I don't. They overlap in the 00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:41.120 - Venn diagram of life. They overlap but I don't want to have those. If you want to have all 00:47:41.120 --> 00:47:47.200 - package plants whether they're viable. Let's have that discussion separately. Then let's have 00:47:47.200 --> 00:47:52.560 - that discussion about sliding scale. And where those two overlap. Yes we'll talk about that. But 00:47:52.560 --> 00:48:00.160 - I don't. By throwing all this stuff at it. It's made it very confusing and it's not. Yes. I'll 00:48:00.160 --> 00:48:10.080 - leave it at that. Colonel Harris. Wow. Sorry. I'm just kind of. I agree with what you just said 00:48:10.080 --> 00:48:16.800 - with respect to sliding scale. So what is the premise for sliding scale? Why do we have that? 00:48:17.200 --> 00:48:24.400 - That's a classification. So the sliding scale allows people to create a two and a half acre 00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:31.680 - lot size and a larger majority of the lot has parent parcel. The other subdivision type which 00:48:31.680 --> 00:48:36.570 - is common in the rural areas is a minor subdivision which has a minimum. Each lot has to be 10 00:48:36.570 --> 00:48:37.120 - acres. 00:48:37.120 --> 00:48:42.960 - So where is the confusion that people don't understand because they're using this long 00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:48.960 - classification? Well, I think one of the confusion points is in the table 4831, right? So if and 00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:49.120 - just 00:48:49.120 --> 00:48:54.560 - correct me if I'm wrong because I'll play dumb here to get the argument where it needs to be then. 00:48:54.560 --> 00:48:59.280 - If I'm looking at something that says I've got 9.99 acres or less and I also know that I've got a 2.5 00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:04.570 - acre minimum in the county, I mean wouldn't someone look at that reasonably and say well gosh is 00:49:04.570 --> 00:49:04.720 - that 00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:15.280 - four can I divide by into four parcels or or can I do one 55 percent and then two on that, right? 00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:21.920 - Because I mean I could look at that and say why can't that be four 2.5 acre units on the sliding 00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:27.120 - scale and yet the column is saying no it's only one. It wouldn't be sliding scale that would be a 00:49:27.120 --> 00:49:31.920 - subdivision. Okay so that so you so you just see like I'm just playing devil's advocate here and 00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:35.920 - how someone could walk in and say I'm just doing math you know is it four so if we're saying that 00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:42.160 - subdivision then that should that's where clarity point needs to be right because that's confusing 00:49:42.160 --> 00:49:46.080 - and maybe it's not confusing to people who've been out a while but I think someone looking at 00:49:46.080 --> 00:49:52.320 - just that grid for five minutes can get confused by that. What I'm trying to do David is to where 00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:57.600 - is the confusion? Yeah well there's a confusion point so if we can take and figure out where the 00:49:57.600 --> 00:50:05.920 - confusion is then let's focus on addressing addressing the confusion. Okay so where's the 00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:13.200 - confusion? We get it from a few different angles so some people don't know if they're able to do 00:50:13.200 --> 00:50:17.760 - anything with the parent parcel they think it's different they think of it as like is it a 00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:23.680 - conservation lot do I get to build a house on it what am I limited to doing on this lot so there's 00:50:23.680 --> 00:50:29.040 - some confusion that we get from people from that and then also when people do subdivide and create 00:50:29.040 --> 00:50:35.760 - a parent parcel that 25 year I think the confusion is that we don't want to wait 25 years we want 00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:36.000 - to 00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:43.360 - hurry up and re-subdivide it again and so our goal I think you know in this CDO is that we close 00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:43.520 - the 00:50:43.520 --> 00:50:48.080 - loop to say you can't partially vacate keep doing this keep doing this keep doing this because 00:50:48.080 --> 00:50:48.320 - people 00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:54.960 - would do a minor subdivision create a 12 acre lot and a 12 acre lot vacate the first minor do 00:50:54.960 --> 00:51:01.040 - two sliding scales vacate the second minor do two sliding scales and we thought well why don't we 00:51:01.040 --> 00:51:07.200 - just do a four lot you know you know it's just like we just would like to see an option or 00:51:07.200 --> 00:51:12.800 - discussion with people to say you just can't do that regardless of how many others you have yep 00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:20.080 - and then I think that people aren't sure what purpose the 25 years serves I know we talked 00:51:20.080 --> 00:51:25.120 - about that during the CDO what's going to happen in 25 years that you don't know today or what 00:51:25.120 --> 00:51:33.490 - what can I do why 25 that's it was a generational thing and again this is about sprawl and 00:51:33.490 --> 00:51:34.240 - preventing 00:51:34.240 --> 00:51:41.200 - big 80 acre 100 acre lots from being subdivided to hell out in you know like way out in the edge 00:51:41.200 --> 00:51:48.480 - of the county and then expecting roads and services and intersections to be able to afford to serve 00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:54.960 - folks the way they expect to be served we can't afford that we don't have the money for that 00:51:54.960 --> 00:52:04.960 - but within 25 years we may and at that point it may become feasible something else changes 00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:11.360 - and road changes whatever it might business move whatever it might be so it's a it was a 00:52:11.360 --> 00:52:12.240 - generational 00:52:12.240 --> 00:52:18.240 - number if you all want to make that generational number 20 years that's fine but it is a it 00:52:18.240 --> 00:52:27.040 - represents a generation because then that family may want to subdivide another piece off of that 00:52:27.040 --> 00:52:34.640 - hundred acres for a two kids that have now come into being right that's why it was a generational 00:52:34.640 --> 00:52:42.720 - number but also because within that time frame you have a new road planning map you have you know 00:52:42.720 --> 00:52:50.160 - those kinds of those tend to go on yes that's exactly and between that economic regional 00:52:50.160 --> 00:52:56.960 - development road planning and a generation of a family who may want to again cut off small pieces 00:52:56.960 --> 00:53:04.960 - of this large acreage farm for example they could then do that no problem and do the same process 00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:12.240 - again if it still exists but again the the goal is to preserve the green space the agricultural 00:53:12.240 --> 00:53:18.630 - which is it it's part of our economy which people seem to forget about they just think it's you 00:53:18.630 --> 00:53:18.880 - know 00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:28.580 - something to be developed into housing and i guess is our economy too um so that was the goal so so 00:53:28.580 --> 00:53:28.720 - i 00:53:28.720 --> 00:53:32.400 - i have a question on that so you there was a transcript provided in the packet tonight what 00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:38.080 - was the date of that transcript i didn't see it in the when did that transcript when that meeting 00:53:38.080 --> 00:53:43.600 - occur was that the last orc meeting in may no this is scott wells and people aren't here anymore 00:53:43.600 --> 00:53:43.840 - that 00:53:43.840 --> 00:53:53.040 - that large transcript um and this was from the cdo hearings yes and it's from 2014 okay so that's 00:53:53.040 --> 00:53:53.200 - the 00:53:53.200 --> 00:54:00.720 - 2014 transcript of someone we just heard referring back to the 1996 creation of the the the if i'm 00:54:00.720 --> 00:54:05.840 - reading this right the the the original ideas behind the moratorium so if i take that generational 00:54:05.840 --> 00:54:11.360 - argument my challenge is that as i read that transcript like there were comments made about 00:54:12.080 --> 00:54:18.320 - um the urbanizing area and focusing on you know planning out the county you know the 2012 con plan 00:54:18.320 --> 00:54:24.960 - and you know if we put some time now between 2014 and now you know 11 years yeah the only way that 00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:29.280 - works for me commissioner is if we actually were going about the plan for building out that 00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:33.520 - infrastructure so like if we're so it's sort of like saying well we don't have the resource now 00:54:33.520 --> 00:54:37.280 - and we're going to do this work to plan for it and then if we don't do it for a decade and then we 00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:40.480 - come back to it and say well gosh you know we don't have the resource and we didn't really do 00:54:40.480 --> 00:54:45.680 - the work to start building out the infrastructure i think i mean the challenge here is that 25 00:54:45.680 --> 00:54:45.840 - years 00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:50.480 - is a little too long then because it feels like it feels like a bit of a circular argument for 00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:54.880 - folks i can appreciate why they'd be frustrated i mean if we're building out and building against 00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:58.640 - a plan for the community that says yeah we are working on road extensions and bridge improvements 00:54:58.640 --> 00:55:02.320 - and and you know we have a highway department that's you know rated every road in the county 00:55:02.320 --> 00:55:05.840 - that we've been replacing over the past few years like we should be able to make a comment or claim 00:55:05.840 --> 00:55:12.160 - that you know we're getting to a point where we could entertain uh folks uh subdividing or doing 00:55:12.160 --> 00:55:17.440 - the the subdivisions there i that's so i'm trying to wrap my head around that transcript from years 00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:23.120 - ago and kind of where we are now and what i need i guess is data to back up what i'm hearing you 00:55:23.120 --> 00:55:32.080 - know where's the data on um you know the the half acre uh subdivisions with 100 houses you know in 00:55:32.080 --> 00:55:36.960 - the rural space like is that i mean have we even seen a proposal like that in a quarter century 00:55:36.960 --> 00:55:42.880 - have we stalled that so i guess in just voicing this in the admin meeting today like i would like 00:55:42.880 --> 00:55:48.640 - to see some data points that hold up as to whether or not the original idea of the 25-year moratorium 00:55:48.640 --> 00:55:57.680 - from 2014 has actually come true or if some of this was um you know uh concerns but they there's 00:55:57.680 --> 00:56:03.360 - no data to really back up the concerns of what um the what development would look like in these 00:56:03.360 --> 00:56:07.920 - spaces um i don't know if that makes sense to others in the room but but you know it's one 00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:12.800 - thing to hypothesize about what what the worst possible development could be if we didn't have 00:56:12.800 --> 00:56:17.840 - this in place as opposed to finding the middle ground on some of these opportunities to improve 00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:23.280 - the the the lots that we can improve and also retain for agriculture and protect the things 00:56:23.280 --> 00:56:27.920 - we're trying to but i just throw that into the room because i just don't i don't feel like i've got 00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:32.800 - the data to back up the claims and i'm hearing on some of that thank you first commissioner thomas 00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:42.800 - then colonel paris and then mr allman yeah so um if somebody wants to subdivide you know 40 acres 00:56:42.800 --> 00:56:49.040 - into whatever they can subdivide it into they can make that proposal they don't think you are you 00:56:49.040 --> 00:56:54.800 - are replicating the myth by saying this is the only way to make a subdivision it is not a farmer 00:56:54.800 --> 00:56:54.960 - who 00:56:54.960 --> 00:57:00.960 - wants to keep it's not a binary i'm not offering a binary here i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry mr 00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:06.480 - henry but current commissioner thomas is i'm not saying it's a binary what i'm saying is there are 00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:15.040 - multiple options for development the problem is to actually afford to put in wider roadways and 00:57:15.040 --> 00:57:22.880 - intersections and the lights and the utilities and everything else that goes into it way out on the 00:57:22.880 --> 00:57:30.080 - edge of the county is very expensive it is not something i imagine any county council will ever 00:57:30.080 --> 00:57:40.720 - support because it is an expense to feed one subdivision potentially now you if somebody 00:57:40.720 --> 00:57:46.080 - wants to propose a pud if somebody wants to propose a subdivision a minor a major they can 00:57:46.080 --> 00:57:56.720 - do that this is one option that helps us prevent sprawl sprawl is a real thing um i i don't know 00:57:56.720 --> 00:57:56.960 - how 00:57:56.960 --> 00:58:04.000 - to prove it to you statistically but sprawl is real uh and i am not i am not in the business of 00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:13.200 - trying to counter argue i need data with here's data from whatever communities we we try to 00:58:13.200 --> 00:58:21.600 - discourage sprawl because it is an expense that the whole county bears and it's not fair to the 00:58:21.600 --> 00:58:27.680 - residents of the county who already are here to have to pay for what looks like bargersville you 00:58:27.680 --> 00:58:32.960 - want to see sprawl go to bargersville take a look at how lovely that one i'm sorry mr homery colonel 00:58:32.960 --> 00:58:42.000 - paris is next to us and then mr omen thank you thank you uh colonel paris trying to lower 00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:49.600 - temperature just a little yeah oh i just have a very basic question and i'm sure others probably 00:58:49.600 --> 00:58:58.960 - do as well i've got a hundred acres and uh and uh when does the 25 years begin 00:59:00.160 --> 00:59:07.280 - at the time of recording okay who's recording the farmer i i've owned the property for 50 years 00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:14.560 - so 25 years ago there's some orange farm expires no at the time of recording the subdivision the 00:59:14.560 --> 00:59:21.920 - science scale subdivision so he has a kid the carpet yeah the cargo okay and so i've got i've 00:59:21.920 --> 00:59:27.200 - got 100 acres and i'm going to carve something out for my kids okay okay at that point in time 00:59:27.200 --> 00:59:35.360 - yeah 25 year clock it's going to be 25 years from that one time so we're only at 10 years 00:59:35.360 --> 00:59:48.320 - there's a lot of pushback but there are other options i i i don't get i don't go i already 00:59:48.320 --> 00:59:53.440 - so fixated on this because it's like the only thing you can do it is not it so how do we make 00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:58.560 - sure people understand there's options right so there's the other option on a septic system 00:59:58.560 --> 01:00:03.360 - is a minor for 10 acre lots i mean it's one of the things we discuss and we have heard in the 01:00:03.360 --> 01:00:03.840 - office 01:00:03.840 --> 01:00:08.480 - that some people cannot get a loan for 10 acres so they have to go with the science scale option 01:00:08.480 --> 01:00:14.800 - so it does kind of if people come in their number one goal is how do i create the smallest lots 01:00:14.800 --> 01:00:21.760 - and preserve or retain the larger lots it is an ideal option people want to have two and a half 01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:27.200 - acres or smaller in the county and so two and a half is what we have as the smallest and so we 01:00:27.200 --> 01:00:33.280 - walk them through the site scale process so people i know what i'm going to do if the first new 01:00:33.280 --> 01:00:39.520 - 100 acres comes to me they say what the heck can we do i'm going to say call jackie and have jackie 01:00:39.520 --> 01:00:46.240 - explain what the various options are that's what i'm going to do the planner is called to that 01:00:46.240 --> 01:00:51.520 - yeah i know what you do that's going to ask to do the planner of the day and they have to ask the 01:00:51.520 --> 01:00:57.040 - planner of the day okay yeah sliding scale you can create up to four lots miners you've created 01:00:57.040 --> 01:00:57.360 - four 01:00:57.360 --> 01:01:03.760 - lots a major subdivision you can create in your example 10 lots but you would probably not have 01:01:03.760 --> 01:01:08.960 - exactly 10 each lot would have to be 10 acres you'd have to carve out some space for bioretention 01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:14.640 - or some sort of strong water in this house and then so i appreciate your response in your case 01:01:14.640 --> 01:01:20.480 - explanation but that's not what the point it's a process any subdivision that's a process 01:01:20.480 --> 01:01:28.160 - it's a process yeah and so can we change 25 years to something different to find urban school by 01:01:28.160 --> 01:01:34.160 - side let's talk about it or exceed we did well i wasn't there i'm sorry i'll be there next week 01:01:34.160 --> 01:01:43.200 - mr altman you know what so if i have you know using the 100 acres example you know we 10 years 01:01:43.200 --> 01:01:51.120 - ago i carved out two two acre parcels in the corner and now i have you know 100 minus four i have 01:01:51.120 --> 01:01:51.600 - 96 01:01:51.600 --> 01:01:57.040 - acres left and it's locked up that i did that 10 years ago so it still has 15 more years but now i 01:01:57.040 --> 01:02:03.920 - want to carve out another two acre parcel right next to the other four acre the other two two 01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:12.800 - acre parcel what is the option for that so can you do that well there you you could potentially do 01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:12.880 - a 01:02:12.880 --> 01:02:18.320 - preliminary flood amendment if you didn't first hit that allocation of four lots there is a there 01:02:18.320 --> 01:02:18.480 - is 01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:24.560 - a little bit of confusion there i think but we do have an ability to get up to the four lots total 01:02:24.560 --> 01:02:30.240 - but even in your example 100 acres even if you create another lot so you have now four lots total 01:02:30.240 --> 01:02:36.400 - you would still have in your example i guess 92 acres that would still be on hold and then you'd 01:02:36.400 --> 01:02:42.320 - be replatting it so i think the 25 years would start again so there would there i that 25 would 01:02:42.320 --> 01:02:47.910 - start again but i can pull that two acres out even though i'm locked up with 15 years still left to 01:02:47.910 --> 01:02:48.000 - go 01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:53.520 - in the fire parcel i think that the the wording of it it says designated parent parcel remainder 01:02:53.520 --> 01:02:58.400 - shall not be further subdivided for a period of 25 years from the date of recording of the 01:02:58.400 --> 01:02:58.960 - secondary 01:02:58.960 --> 01:03:04.560 - plot and less connected to sanitary sewage or further subdivision of the properties authorized 01:03:04.560 --> 01:03:11.520 - by ordinance which would be a PUD so if you and we do see a few people like i think it has to say 01:03:11.520 --> 01:03:16.160 - some ORC packet but we do see some people that only create like two or three lots and they could 01:03:16.160 --> 01:03:23.120 - create up to four so the math kind of works out better if people will do the four up at 55 01:03:23.120 --> 01:03:23.600 - everything 01:03:23.600 --> 01:03:27.440 - else because one of the scenarios going back to when we were going through all these meetings 01:03:27.440 --> 01:03:32.080 - one of the scenarios i got received a lot from a lot of the farmers that i worked with and plays 01:03:32.080 --> 01:03:38.320 - right into the examples that that was brought up about why this was originally put in was so that 01:03:38.320 --> 01:03:46.000 - you know farmers could carve off a few acres for their kids or whatever and um is that so you know 01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:51.840 - grandpa wasn't didn't have the forethought to think about that 25 block 25 year lockup and so what 01:03:51.840 --> 01:03:52.000 - he 01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:59.680 - did was he took his 100 acres and he carved out two acres here for his house two acres here for his 01:03:59.680 --> 01:04:06.640 - farm shop and then the remaining 96 acres was all his ag fields and he did that for tax purposes or 01:04:06.640 --> 01:04:11.520 - whatever you know putting in a trust whatever reason he did that but he did that 10 years ago 01:04:11.520 --> 01:04:19.840 - and now the son wants to break it up but he can't do that and then beyond that now so let's say i 01:04:19.840 --> 01:04:25.520 - wait 15 years well at that point brand side is going to be already 20 years old and what now we're 01:04:25.520 --> 01:04:31.360 - going to restart that 25 year clock again and so i i truly understand the 25 year being a 01:04:31.360 --> 01:04:32.160 - generational 01:04:32.160 --> 01:04:38.480 - thing but one of the biggest arguments that i that i received from people on that 25 year thing was 01:04:38.480 --> 01:04:48.240 - okay does that generational time make sense in terms of actual like application of a generation 01:04:48.240 --> 01:04:54.400 - i like the idea that you threw out about dropping it to 20 years or even more than that because 01:04:54.400 --> 01:05:00.880 - you know like let's say my dad owns that hundred acres am i in a position right now at the age of 01:05:00.880 --> 01:05:07.120 - 30 to carve out you know can i afford that might not be in a position to buy that but it might be 01:05:07.120 --> 01:05:13.040 - 10 years from now and so if we don't but if we don't carve it now you know so it's it's like that 01:05:13.040 --> 01:05:19.360 - clock you're playing this time game and i almost would like to know if there is a way that we can 01:05:19.360 --> 01:05:26.080 - figure up and i know this is like trying to find statistics that maybe don't exist but what is the 01:05:26.080 --> 01:05:33.120 - inflection point between if that parent parcel is locked up for five years a developer might come 01:05:33.120 --> 01:05:38.400 - back in five years and try to do it again but if it's locked up for 25 years the developer loses 01:05:38.400 --> 01:05:44.000 - interest but if it's 25 years it's too much for a family so where's the inflection point between 01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:48.320 - those two where a developer is going to lose interest but we're not burdening the family we're 01:05:48.320 --> 01:05:54.080 - not smacking the family and can we find that inflection point is it 15 years it's 10 years 01:05:54.080 --> 01:06:00.320 - i'm going to do a pud i mean it's not holding it up because it says except for ordinance the 01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:06.880 - developer could come in and do a pud uh planned unit development so it's not as though they're 01:06:06.880 --> 01:06:12.560 - prohibited from that if the developer's got money they're 92 acres sitting there well he needs to 01:06:12.560 --> 01:06:19.920 - talk to jackie and to julie and to uh the plan commission and put a proposal down so so the 01:06:19.920 --> 01:06:32.240 - subdivision i guess then i just then i guess if but i guess i i don't see a family subdividing 01:06:32.240 --> 01:06:38.560 - or a group subdividing as being the leading direction to sprawl and i understand the 01:06:38.560 --> 01:06:43.920 - importance of avoiding sprawl but i think that it's more the developer out and it's like if we 01:06:43.920 --> 01:06:50.720 - have the pud option then we're not really like we have the opportunity to shut down the pud 01:06:50.720 --> 01:06:57.750 - to avoid the sprawls and instead we're locking up vast tracts of land for in my opinion way too 01:06:57.750 --> 01:06:58.000 - long 01:06:59.360 --> 01:07:07.760 - yeah i mean that's valid and the the issue of the length of time is uh on the table but uh if the 01:07:07.760 --> 01:07:14.400 - developer notion is really not an issue because it's contained in the ordinance that if the 01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:20.960 - developer wants to develop that 92 acres the 25 years doesn't get in the way well then let's 01:07:20.960 --> 01:07:25.360 - avoid the the developer term but just the the general body whoever the person is that we're 01:07:25.360 --> 01:07:30.000 - avoiding by putting this 25 years in place in the fourth point if it's just sprawl in general 01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:37.110 - where's the because if you know 25 years is what's avoid what's what is keeping sprawl from 01:07:37.110 --> 01:07:37.600 - happening 01:07:37.600 --> 01:07:42.320 - what's saying that 20 years will keep sprawl from happening what's saying that 10 years will keep 01:07:42.320 --> 01:07:49.520 - sprawl from happening so let's lower that to okay let's do two weeks there we go she just 01:07:49.520 --> 01:07:56.880 - offered you two weeks so let's put two weeks that's called sarcasm so um but i have a question for 01:07:56.880 --> 01:07:57.280 - you 01:07:57.280 --> 01:08:03.120 - just a point of clarification i don't from what you said and that's why i'm jumping in here um 01:08:03.120 --> 01:08:09.520 - what do you mean by locking the land up because we just like we just said that if he's already hit 01:08:09.520 --> 01:08:16.960 - his four four lots now that that unit is locked for 25 years for resub for resubdividing it 01:08:18.400 --> 01:08:25.600 - unless he's on sewer and how many of these if if it was a hundred years you know your your comment 01:08:25.600 --> 01:08:32.000 - was about how this was first in place in particular for farm land and ag land and that commodity 01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:32.080 - and 01:08:32.080 --> 01:08:37.120 - allowing these families that have been farming this land for generations to keep their generations 01:08:37.120 --> 01:08:42.400 - their future generations on their land but you know i don't think that they're in a position that 01:08:42.400 --> 01:08:46.800 - they're just going to want to give just subdivide it to heck but if they've already spent the time 01:08:47.360 --> 01:08:52.080 - subdividing it and they didn't have the forethought thought to start that clock far 01:08:52.080 --> 01:08:58.080 - enough in advance and now they're locked up for another 15 years but they still want to lock up 01:08:58.080 --> 01:09:02.640 - that land is not in a position where they can put in septic that you know they're most of the time 01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:11.200 - they're far off from a septic or a um sewer sorry suburb septic apologize they're far from the 01:09:11.200 --> 01:09:11.600 - sewer 01:09:11.600 --> 01:09:16.960 - limits so that's where i'm like in this position where you have these lands that are locked but 01:09:16.960 --> 01:09:24.000 - the land owners should still have the opportunity to make allow their family to live on the land 01:09:24.000 --> 01:09:29.840 - they've owned for how many hundreds of years take tron and that david heck all right 01:09:29.840 --> 01:09:39.120 - i agree with that sentiment 100 unfortunately it's not always what occurs when you talk about 01:09:39.840 --> 01:09:48.480 - you know people selling off property for profit they get hard times one thing we keep referring 01:09:48.480 --> 01:09:55.120 - to this other processes so it'd be real nice to understand kind of like how those processes fit 01:09:55.120 --> 01:10:03.040 - without having sewer we have one of the footnotes that are pretty much associated to all of the 01:10:03.040 --> 01:10:08.800 - subdivisions like if you don't have access to septic the minimum lot size of a subdivision is 01:10:08.800 --> 01:10:16.560 - 10 acres you know that's just a sewer sorry i'm reading it okay also i'd like to say that you know 01:10:16.560 --> 01:10:20.560 - i was in support of moving this forward i never thought it was a done deal and a lot of these 01:10:20.560 --> 01:10:26.800 - conversations weren't at impetus from me trying to write randall so like let's make sure when we're 01:10:26.800 --> 01:10:35.840 - targeting our comments we don't make him feel personal um and it comes from 01:10:37.360 --> 01:10:48.400 - the sarcasm the belittleness so like comments back and forth but it i feel abruptly um somewhat 01:10:48.400 --> 01:10:56.080 - subjective towards everyone's you know uh dissent to the discussion of different ideas when it wasn't 01:10:56.080 --> 01:11:01.200 - me that really wanted to push this conversation forward right now but i was fine because i want 01:11:01.200 --> 01:11:05.120 - to hear from other people we all feel the same way are you trying to have the floor right now 01:11:05.120 --> 01:11:10.560 - i know don't try to have support right now hey no no no try not before i'm the chair okay you can't 01:11:10.560 --> 01:11:15.520 - interrupt them and then you'd be the interrupter no no no that's not you can't blame the cars that 01:11:15.520 --> 01:11:21.280 - way no it's this the big septic thing is what do you like chair i don't want the chair hey i didn't 01:11:21.280 --> 01:11:27.760 - want it's a it's a big issue and we need to understand that in relation to the sliding 01:11:27.760 --> 01:11:33.360 - scale and when we say there's other options there are there's a pud that's been mentioned 01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:41.510 - that has to be a proof there's no predictability what i would like is just a few bits of 01:11:41.510 --> 01:11:42.080 - adjustments 01:11:42.080 --> 01:11:47.280 - to our ordinance that gives predictability to a farmer that owns some land that might want to 01:11:47.280 --> 01:11:54.240 - give it to his family or sell it off for some interest maybe a future buyer that you know 01:11:54.240 --> 01:11:58.880 - wants to take an investment in our community that knows when they do that there's going to be some 01:11:58.880 --> 01:12:04.160 - predictability with their investment now like i said i was walking back some of my comments 01:12:04.160 --> 01:12:13.680 - because it does get complex but what we have right now is it is a lack of addressing the issue with 01:12:13.680 --> 01:12:20.400 - septic and sewer and so it's just making every bit of land in my opinion in the county a finite 01:12:20.400 --> 01:12:30.240 - fine sorry a commodity a finite commodity versus an opportunity and that's generally how i feel 01:12:30.240 --> 01:12:35.600 - right now because we're not addressing some of the issues that are present in our community 01:12:35.600 --> 01:12:42.800 - in our county and that's with not having sewer and having all these ideas that you can do a 01:12:42.800 --> 01:12:48.800 - thousand different things but those are contingent to having sewer and until we address that and i 01:12:48.800 --> 01:12:53.200 - mentioned that and that's why it's part of our discussion i feel like this conversation could 01:12:53.200 --> 01:12:59.360 - go on the back burner because jackie brought it up if if packaging plants are recognized as a sewer 01:12:59.360 --> 01:13:04.800 - than a hundred acres adjacent to it could just subdivide it and then we're going to see urban 01:13:04.800 --> 01:13:12.320 - sprawl that's kind of my feelings around this i'm i'm not sold on anything except for the fact that 01:13:12.320 --> 01:13:17.840 - like we need more predictability we can't just chalk it up that they can come and ask and we can 01:13:17.840 --> 01:13:29.600 - say yes 01:13:29.600 --> 01:13:46.080 - thank you um just maybe some other thoughts here so i want to appreciate mr alman's comment about 01:13:46.080 --> 01:13:46.400 - um 01:13:47.440 --> 01:13:53.600 - what seems to be the 25 year number seeming uh in the way you described it and the way i'm reading 01:13:53.600 --> 01:13:59.200 - it in these transcripts and the way it evolved we can call the generation it is a bit arbitrary 01:13:59.200 --> 01:14:03.520 - you know it's looking at other counties in terms of what they would call a moratorium or suspense 01:14:03.520 --> 01:14:09.600 - or pause um you know the number is quite large uh you know and i think you identified some case 01:14:09.600 --> 01:14:15.040 - study or straw man type examples where you know somebody that's not a developer would want to use 01:14:15.040 --> 01:14:20.960 - their generational land in a way that makes sense for their family so i think i think where i would 01:14:20.960 --> 01:14:24.720 - like to focus my comments on how i would get to a place where i could understand where we're going 01:14:24.720 --> 01:14:30.880 - with this is um we're not operating on the same terms um we've heard straw man personas you know 01:14:30.880 --> 01:14:37.040 - which you know what we've defined the hypothetical farmer with a lot that wants to subdivide 01:14:37.040 --> 01:14:41.440 - subdivide for children and grandchildren i mean that's a hypothetical uh you know we've also 01:14:41.440 --> 01:14:47.280 - defined a hypothetical of a speculator that has bought large parcels of property um without maybe 01:14:47.280 --> 01:14:52.960 - regard to our local ordinance but all that is um those are kind of personas or strawmen that were 01:14:52.960 --> 01:14:57.760 - bouncing ideas off of and they're not data driven and so when i hear comments i appreciate you know 01:14:57.760 --> 01:15:01.920 - folks are like hey david you know where would you like us to get said data the data is right here i 01:15:01.920 --> 01:15:06.480 - mean we we just saw a presentation of a data visualization of things that we're doing in this 01:15:06.480 --> 01:15:11.360 - department i you know tron i know we've looked at survey data of who owns the county uh together as 01:15:11.360 --> 01:15:15.920 - a visualization in esri and i don't think it would take long for us to come to a conclusion on what 01:15:15.920 --> 01:15:22.960 - parcels would be problematic um you know that we would never that we would want to see that type of 01:15:22.960 --> 01:15:27.920 - protection on and others that might be ripe for subdivision because they are in a place that could 01:15:27.920 --> 01:15:32.640 - sustain packaging or could sustain the clustered subdivision but we need the data on what's 01:15:32.640 --> 01:15:38.080 - available in the county that to look at so i say all that to say i would like to get away from the 01:15:38.080 --> 01:15:43.680 - sort of the hype the kind of straw person like examples of what we're talking about and actually 01:15:43.680 --> 01:15:49.680 - look at the the actual parcels and cases that we have that could fit what we're really talking 01:15:49.680 --> 01:15:54.720 - about here um because i just doesn't i don't i'm not responsive to the kind of hypothetical farmer 01:15:54.720 --> 01:15:58.160 - scenario at this point because i'm not sure how many of those there really are compared to 01:15:58.160 --> 01:16:01.920 - somebody that may be inherited property in the county and doesn't really know what to do with 01:16:01.920 --> 01:16:06.650 - it other than they'd like to subdivide it maybe put two or three units on it and and what that 01:16:06.650 --> 01:16:06.960 - means 01:16:06.960 --> 01:16:11.360 - and i guess my last comment would be we just need to define terms i mean we can't throw around 01:16:11.360 --> 01:16:11.600 - terms 01:16:11.600 --> 01:16:16.480 - like urban sprawl without definition i mean those are if they are well defined enough that we all 01:16:16.480 --> 01:16:20.720 - can agree on what that term means fine but again i don't want to keep reaching for binaries in this 01:16:20.720 --> 01:16:26.080 - discussion i lastly just want to say my piece that i appreciate Mr. Olman's comment i know i'm on a 01:16:26.080 --> 01:16:30.560 - hybrid format tonight but we either are going to follow procedure or we're not if i'm going to be 01:16:30.560 --> 01:16:34.960 - cut off in discussion but others are allowed to engage in a free-for-all discussion around a topic 01:16:34.960 --> 01:16:40.800 - that's maybe not as hot you know if we need to pull out a parliamentarian or get the roberts 01:16:40.800 --> 01:16:45.680 - rules out to get through tougher conversations i'm okay with that to maintain decorum but 01:16:45.680 --> 01:16:52.000 - we just had i mean i was trampled on others were allowed to talk freely without without you know 01:16:52.000 --> 01:16:56.480 - being put back in the pecking order i just need to say that and we need to work on the consistency 01:16:56.480 --> 01:17:00.400 - of how we're going to apply our procedures so we can conduct our business together thank you 01:17:00.400 --> 01:17:04.160 - i have a motion 01:17:04.160 --> 01:17:17.200 - i suggest that we take coa 253 table and we continue this is going to be back at the oars 01:17:17.200 --> 01:17:24.640 - well you've already said this wasn't for this month's commission meeting in place we need to 01:17:24.640 --> 01:17:29.280 - have it back to people i see we're not i think there are seats we're not we're not ready for this 01:17:29.280 --> 01:17:36.240 - there's too much i'm not sure we need a motion for that okay that's i'm just saying 01:17:36.240 --> 01:17:39.600 - there's too much motion that's right we need to take the lift 01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:47.360 - you all agree with that let me take a vote on it 01:17:49.120 --> 01:17:56.640 - okay i can i ask a strategy question i i'm curious on your comments about you want 01:17:56.640 --> 01:18:03.760 - more like tangible data rather than just like the you use the term strongman i'm not too familiar 01:18:03.760 --> 01:18:10.320 - with that term but um are you asking that you'd like to see you know how many of these parcels 01:18:10.320 --> 01:18:17.680 - that are in a 25 year or existing in that moratorium exist or i guess i'm curious on 01:18:18.240 --> 01:18:23.600 - what what that tangible data looks like because i think it would be very beneficial i'd like to 01:18:23.600 --> 01:18:28.480 - see that too but i'm not sure what that tangible data looks like so yeah so i mean i there's yeah 01:18:28.480 --> 01:18:32.240 - i'll be quick about it because i know we're deep into the meeting so uh imagine like we did with 01:18:32.240 --> 01:18:36.800 - the impermeable surface a few weeks ago where we were able to tease out some parcels to look at 01:18:36.800 --> 01:18:41.120 - and see what those look like by percentages and and the like right so some of those we were able 01:18:41.120 --> 01:18:45.200 - to look at visuals look at some data and say okay here's a here's an example of a parcel that fits 01:18:45.200 --> 01:18:50.000 - what we're talking about we've had examples while i've even been on plant commission of you know 01:18:50.000 --> 01:18:54.400 - people have come to us to subdivide under the current you know and talk through that we can 01:18:54.400 --> 01:18:58.160 - take a look at some of those parcel or some of those cases that have been brought into the docket 01:18:58.160 --> 01:19:03.040 - you know recently that that either really well fit what we're talking about or really hard to deal 01:19:03.040 --> 01:19:08.960 - with because of some of the variables that prevented that parcel owner from getting to 01:19:08.960 --> 01:19:13.920 - maybe a common sense solution in some of the ways that you described you know that sort of 01:19:13.920 --> 01:19:18.720 - generational pass down of the grandkids right so i think that we've got it in what we've done we 01:19:18.720 --> 01:19:23.040 - just need to kind of compile the cases and look at them so we can better understand what we're 01:19:23.040 --> 01:19:28.000 - talking about other than these kind of appeals to and when straw man meaning you know the logical 01:19:28.000 --> 01:19:33.440 - fallacy of just a created idea that that fits our argument really that's what i was saying there 01:19:33.440 --> 01:19:37.840 - that you know we're rather than creating a hypothetical farmer let's actually find a few 01:19:37.840 --> 01:19:42.400 - and they have parcels that we've dealt with recently that either were well matched for this 01:19:42.400 --> 01:19:46.080 - or or were really hard to deal with because of some of the things we talked about does that 01:19:46.080 --> 01:19:53.600 - make sense yeah thank you yeah if i can turn my question that expanded to tacky how feasible is 01:19:53.600 --> 01:20:01.440 - that to collaborate you know five or half a dozen or so properties that are existing in you know 01:20:01.440 --> 01:20:06.960 - and it'd be nice if they were in a ingredient of hey this one just went into the 25 yeah this one's 01:20:06.960 --> 01:20:12.800 - at 10 year this one's at five years you know that's feasible once it comes back to the platform or 01:20:12.800 --> 01:20:19.520 - conversation yeah that'd be nice thank you i will want to add that you're always welcome to can't 01:20:19.520 --> 01:20:25.840 - attend an orc meeting all the time but those packets are published and the recordings are 01:20:25.840 --> 01:20:30.560 - in the calendar and you can always go back and look at those because sometimes i think we are 01:20:30.560 --> 01:20:36.960 - putting some examples of orc packet that don't make it here all the time okay yeah i have a 01:20:36.960 --> 01:20:37.360 - question 01:20:37.360 --> 01:20:46.560 - dave yes since we've lost our chair and our vice chair at this point in time what are the rules 01:20:46.560 --> 01:20:46.800 - about 01:20:46.800 --> 01:20:54.000 - who runs the meeting well i think at this point you could appoint somebody to chair the meeting 01:20:54.000 --> 01:21:03.120 - or you could turn that over to the staff to take over i recommend the staff to get over 01:21:03.120 --> 01:21:13.120 - that's fine we don't have any sorry it's very easy from here on out if we're moving on to the next 01:21:13.120 --> 01:21:20.160 - items unfinished business and then we have one new new business because the second item was 01:21:20.160 --> 01:21:20.880 - continued 01:21:20.880 --> 01:21:26.800 - so tammy i think you can briefly give an update on the unfinished business together yeah uh from 01:21:26.800 --> 01:21:32.960 - all the fields there is an eating plan for june 10th that's it that's the update that's it we're 01:21:32.960 --> 01:21:40.240 - going to get the we're going to get the meeting up yeah that was the way down yeah got it that's 01:21:40.240 --> 01:21:48.400 - nothing has changed um thanks and then the next item north park to pud development plan that is 01:21:48.400 --> 01:21:54.480 - going to go to planning commission this month we've seen this quite a few times as part of the part 01:21:54.480 --> 01:21:54.640 - of 01:21:54.640 --> 01:22:00.170 - it is part of the rezone which already went through but this is a request for final development 01:22:00.170 --> 01:22:00.800 - plan 01:22:00.800 --> 01:22:08.320 - allowance to permit the fill site on the retired or old quarry site so that one's pretty much 01:22:08.320 --> 01:22:14.240 - ready to go and send it to the branch board and we're ready to bring it to you all for a vote and 01:22:14.240 --> 01:22:20.720 - then we would proceed with the development we will permits being issued on that and i back up to 01:22:20.720 --> 01:22:20.880 - the 01:22:20.880 --> 01:22:26.800 - hall and fields one and just a curiosity and because there was a lot of moving parts a lot of 01:22:26.800 --> 01:22:33.280 - different bodies involved right am i allowed to ask who all is at said meeting in terms of 01:22:33.280 --> 01:22:40.640 - were you able to get everybody scheduled for this meeting or there's one builder three lot 01:22:40.640 --> 01:22:48.320 - there turning will be up unfortunately we just found that out today as a access through one of 01:22:48.320 --> 01:22:56.720 - someone associated with the developer maybe attend but they already know it is yeah yeah 01:22:56.720 --> 01:23:04.400 - but the attorney is willing to meet with that's when they come back okay so that three one is 01:23:04.400 --> 01:23:14.080 - the alarm not that's okay that's curious that's gonna be before it'll happen before plank mission 01:23:14.080 --> 01:23:26.560 - but possibly now so give it up that was it as far as business coming the next commission meeting so 01:23:26.560 --> 01:23:29.200 - does anyone have any questions for us 01:23:32.160 --> 01:23:38.640 - okay all right return actually i actually had something on the north park is that the north 01:23:38.640 --> 01:23:44.240 - park one on screen right now jackie yeah yeah so i you know again we didn't have the chance to hear 01:23:44.240 --> 01:23:51.120 - from petitioners i mean do we do we know i guess i mean have they been in contact with us since 01:23:51.120 --> 01:23:57.280 - some of those votes or or not um you're talking about holland fields or north park sorry north 01:23:57.280 --> 01:24:00.960 - park sorry north park yeah i got it got away from me because i know we took the they weren't in the 01:24:00.960 --> 01:24:05.120 - room when we talked about of course you know we were all supportive because you know but but have 01:24:05.120 --> 01:24:10.000 - they reached out since the last meeting at all um they were supportive of the if you're talking 01:24:10.000 --> 01:24:14.960 - about the rezoned forest care was like written commitments they they did reach out and they're 01:24:14.960 --> 01:24:21.280 - okay with that okay yeah but this one is the development plan so these conditions are pretty 01:24:21.280 --> 01:24:27.120 - much already met i think they've already met the updated karst conservancy area and they already 01:24:27.120 --> 01:24:33.600 - have a small amount of grading permit in process so they will be able to the written commitment 01:24:33.600 --> 01:24:39.600 - requires like quarterly water testing and things like that just to confirm that the clean fill is 01:24:39.600 --> 01:24:45.360 - clean so they will have some requirements to to keep on after they've started the grading work 01:24:45.360 --> 01:24:53.360 - just to monitor through a third party yeah they don't have any issues with these i should say 01:24:55.680 --> 01:25:01.840 - did you have any other questions david okay all right okay i think there was a motion to 01:25:01.840 --> 01:25:28.080 - adjourn everyone else now we're okay 01:25:58.080 --> 01:26:10.060 - [ Music ]